AS158: "My Father's Funeral Was Stopped By Gay Marriage"

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:31 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 158, and I'm your host, Thomas Smith. Now, as I referenced on Monday's episode, today is going to be a surprise part two with Nathaniel. I didn't actually plan on it, but Nathaniel had some questions for me, and it turned into a bit more of a conversation. And then later on, I have another segment, another interview, actually. So this is going be a very interesting episode, and hope you like it. So, here goes.

0:01:13 Nathanael: So my question for you, Thomas, is what got you to the point of atheism?

0:01:17 Thomas: Well, I have, it was more discovering, maybe this is something you can relate to, I don't know, the opposite way, but for me, there wasn't a time when I realized I didn't believe in God. I just realized I've never believed in God, if that makes sense. I was raised in the church, actually.

Not too hardcore, but I was raised to go to church most Sundays, and I just, what, I think what slowly happened, and maybe this is something that you can relate to because you're more progressive, I took in my mind, the first things I knew about God as a kid was, well, He's all-powerful and all that, and He should be smarter than any of us combined, you know, all of us combined, and as a little kid I remember forming thoughts of, well, then there wouldn't be a hell, that makes no sense, there wouldn't be this, there wouldn't be that, and I formed in my mind, I think that what happens with people is they obviously are very limited by their own cognitive abilities, and I think that people's image of God really reflects where they are oftentimes in their intelligence, for lack of a better word.

I think that people, and I don't mean this in any derogatory sense, but I think the people in the Old Testament, for example, it's not like they were dumber, but because of society hadn't progressed as far. They were functionally less intelligent than we are now. They were less sophisticated than we are now. And as a consequence, their idea of God is incredibly unsophisticated. God is like a super war man thing that's going to help him win battles. It's not very imaginative.

0:03:03 Thomas: God is very jealous. There's all these qualities that people back then gave God. But for me as a kid, I thought, well, he's infinitely good. He's infinitely knowledgeable. He would understand why everyone did everything. I mean, he would understand if I do something wrong, he would know exactly why. And there's not really any blame in that. I didn't find any room for sin or for that. You know, it's like he would understand what went wrong in my mind or what went wrong in my upbringing, my genetics, whatever it is, he would know. And to me, eventually, I, so I had a picture of what religion should be. And then I think growing up, I would see, you know, there were people in the church who, in the Church I went to, who were, you know. Not the most sophisticated people and they would have an idea of God and I would think, well, that's ridiculous.

0:03:53 Thomas: I wouldn't believe in that God. And it's slow. I think that chasm grew more and more, the more I got to know what people thought of God and what people believed of God. And I think eventually I just realized this God that I'm thinking of is something I just made up based on these words, based on these terms, like all-knowing, all-saying, based on that I made up a God. I just don't see any evidence for that God. You know, I just I came to realize I never really believed in it. It was just something I kind of created based on, you know, my upbringing and things I learned as a kid, and I will tell you, in all honesty, I have been someone who has said that I've always wanted to believe in God. I've always wanted there to be a God for a lot of reasons, and a lot of atheists, I think, disagree with me on this.

0:04:44 Thomas: There's a lot of atheists who, I think, react pretty negatively to my saying that. Now, I just want to clarify, and sorry, I've been talking for a long time without letting you respond. But I do wish there was a God, because a real all-knowing God would be awesome. Like a real, all-wise, all loving God would be really cool. Now, here's the thing for me. I think that the world we live in is simply incompatible with that. Now you can make up explanations for it, blah, blah. But the suffering in the world, there is no all-kind, all-knowing God that would allow the suffering in the world. And we can argue back and forth about the problem of evil, but I'm simply unconvinced of those arguments. I mean, there's just too much horror in the word. For me, to where that God would exist. So I think that's also a big part of why I realized that my conception of what I think a God would be and what the world is very much just drastically grew apart to the point where I couldn't support that belief in my mind at all.

0:04:54 Nathanael: Appreciate it, I'm

0:05:51 Thomas: But just to tie it up, I really have never been resistant to believing. And I can remember times in early college where I actively was trying to believe in God and just I couldn't do it. But yeah, so there's a very long answer to your very... that's a very short question.

0:06:07 Nathanael: How would you say that atheism has made you a better human being?

0:06:11 Thomas: Hmm, that's interesting. That's an interesting question. I don't know that I would say it has. I would would say that being in touch with reality as I see it, of course, um, realizing that there's no one else who's going to make up for everything, that there's only one life, that there's no great, you know, being who's going to be accountable, you know, there's that, it doesn't, shedding the idea that well it doesn't much matter what happens here because in the second life, in the afterlife, everything will be fine. I think being in touch with that reality can make you a better person. But I don't think that it necessarily does.

I, I think that atheism to my mind is pretty neutral. But neutral can be good because neutral means it's not a different ideology, like say radical Islam or radical any religion really. So neutral can protect you from a sort of radical Christianity, where you think you need to murder people to send them to heaven, or something, just as a generic example, or radical whatever religion it might be. So being in touch with simply just, you know, science and reality, I think can be a very good thing. But I certainly will grant that I don't know that it, I don't think it necessarily makes you better.

0:06:55 Nathanael: Okay.

0:07:41 Thomas: And I will also grant that, kind of reading into your question, I will also grant that Christianity could make you better, but I don't think it guarantees to make you better at all. So that's interesting.

0:07:56 Thomas: Well, I'm curious, what are your thoughts on this? I mean, do you have any, or are you just trying to Socratically ask some questions to get me somewhere? Just curious.

0:08:06 Nathanael: No, I'm just, you know, picking your mind up.

0:08:08 Thomas: Yeah. Well, that's fair.

0:08:11 Nathanael: Can Christians do to promote better dialogue with people who are atheists? Yeah,

0:08:19 Thomas: That's another good question. And I mean I think that's a good question that you ask because I think it's something that atheists should think about. Because right now, I mean, I very much internalize. So I think that while the, yeah, on the surface of your question, it sounds like, yeah. What can Christians do to be better? But I take your question and I think, wow, that's an interesting thing for someone to be thinking. Maybe I should be thinking that. Maybe I shouldn't be thinking, what can I do to make the dialogue go better on my side? And that's interesting. That's a good thought. I would say that, for one, I think what you're doing helps because being pro-gay marriage and being pro just, you know, rights for human rights for people is definitely like one of those fundamental, you you know, just barriers that, uh, if a Christian is anti-gay, anti-whatever, you know? That's going to be a conversation stopper very easily for most people.

0:08:31 Nathanael: Absolutely.

0:09:19 Thomas: Um, I'm happy, I can't really speak for other atheists. I'm very happy to talk to religious people. I like doing it. I like, I like talking to you. I get, I get tired of talking to people who think the same things I do.

0:09:39 Thomas: I don't have to do much except be open to speaking. But actually, you know what? I thought of a better answer because maybe you'll be able to relate to this. I think that there are a lot of Christians who are very much not like you. And I think your average Christian who, and I can attest to this in my personal life with my family and all that, their beliefs are so insecure. I don't know if that, I mean, that might be me reading into it, but their beliefs are so almost, it seems like they're so fragile that any mention of their beliefs not being true scares them, and they shut down. There are people, the minute you start talking like, well, what if the Bible's not right? What if the description of Jesus, it was after the fact, it was years after he lived.

0:10:27 Thomas: What if it's wrong? What if he didn't exist? Anything like that, any questions like that. I know a lot of Christians who shut down and cannot even process it. And so, right. So I would say that that would be being willing to entertain the idea that you could be wrong is, is important for anyone, but very important when it comes to this dialogue, because shutting down is just not going to work. You know, there's no, there's nowhere you can go.

0:10:56 Nathanael: I can definitely attest to that. Where I'm coming at in faith, it's like open-handed. It's the case of, if we were a community, you would hear me express my views and then say, well, I could be wrong, because I could do that. And I'm, you know, anyone and everyone should allow that room for doubt in their life. And definitely there are Christians who are like, well, if you let in some doubt, you know, that's just going to, like, topple over everything and luck with nothing. And it's a case of, in my life, there has been a lot of toppling over, yes. But I have found faith in the process. I haven't found ways to build up my walls and make them more solidified. But it is definitely an open-handed posture that I try to conduct my life because, you know, it's like we've got, like, what, 7 billion people on this planet now? It's like, but

0:11:25 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, it might be eight. I forget.

0:11:55 Nathanael: Isn't just about me. It's not just about you. There are so many people. There are some many different views.

0:12:02 Nathanael: Why say it's just like this one set of ways? You know, I think that's even why at times, like – because I know you mentioned that I'm a Christian, but I align myself as someone who tries to live my life through the lens of Christ, but to say that we're all in this together and that there aren't going to be people going to hell, there's this universalism that I believe in that even if you're outside of my faith tradition, or even if you're not an atheist or an agnostic, even if you don't believe in God, I do have a sense that there is going to be this time of reconnection to everyone to their being as well as to God. One thing that keeps on coming to my mind is just, it's about faith, it's not about this belief that's caught up in the black and white, the up and the down.

0:12:57 Nathanael: You kind of have to just go by faith, and some people do say faith is cowardly or stupid, but for me it's a case of it keeps the conversation going. It's not putting you in a corner for your beliefs, or in a quarter for my beliefs, but just allows so much room for dialogue where there usually isn't.

0:13:18 Thomas: Well, that's, that's an interesting thing. There's a little bit of noise happening. Yeah, there you go. That's an interesting thing, because faith is typically a conversation ender. It's kind of odd that you have posed it as kind of a way to keep conversation going. I'd be curious to know how you're looking at faith that allows that, when most people, when they say, well, I believe in God, I belief in this, you know, these aspects, these beliefs in my religion, and it's faith. There's not much I can say to that, except, you know, well, faith, I don't think is a virtue. I think believing things for evidence is a virtue, but maybe you have a different take on faith, or you mean a different thing when you're using that word now. What do you think?

0:14:05 Nathanael: Very good question. I'd have to get back to you on that one. Sorry. I

0:14:09 Thomas: Okay, That's fair. I appreciate the honesty. Know when you talked about, uh, just, just recently here when you talked about your worldview, maybe not necessarily Christianity describing you per se, but your worldview of being in it together, you know, those things, um, I think those are good secular beliefs. I think they are good things that anyone should believe, and I wonder, do you think there's something that your belief in God or Jesus gives you that you need in order to have that belief? Because I think from my perspective, I can just say, well, we all are here.

0:14:56 Thomas: There is like 8 billion of us or something, and we are mortal, and we are subject to suffering, and all this stuff. And the best way for the most good for everyone is to work together and to be considerate and work for solutions together. Is there something that Jesus does or a belief in Jesus gives you in order to to reach that conclusion that I can't have or something. You know what I mean? Does the question make sense?

0:15:25 Nathanael: Would say that where I'm coming from with my roots, coming from a Christian background, for me, Christ works where I want to say that if I were in a Muslim tradition that I'd be very Koran-centric, like have this still universal notion, but you know, through a different faith system. So I just think it's coming from where I am. And for me, my views have been ones of building blocks, not stepping stones, that it has progressed me to this point. It was never a, I'm on this stance, I'm on this platform for now, looking for the next one to jump off to. It's just always been part of my life. And so I think it's just the progression of where I was, where I'm now, just where I am from, where I come from.

0:16:19 Nathanael: Yeah, I could see this, like, you know, I could probably be, like a secular humanist and hold these views, but for me, it's still something about, you know, what's prescribed to what Jesus said and did that just still blows my mind every time I read it.

0:16:19 Thomas: Oh, go ahead.

0:16:37 Thomas: Well, I am starting that New Testament in my podcast, so I'm going to get to it. I'm excited, actually.

0:16:45 Thomas: Yeah, okay. Well I think this is a good place to stop again for the second time. But yeah, okay, well that's very interesting. I think you've been very honest. I appreciate that. And I like what you're doing. And again, I would love to talk to you again another time. So we'll have to find a reason for that. All right.

0:17:06 Nathanael: Absolutely.

0:17:06 Thomas: Well, this time for real, thanks for joining us, Nathaniel. Oh, is there any place you want to point people to online to find you or find info about you?

0:17:19 Nathanael: Yeah, if you just want to go to my blog, www.nathanielvitgis.wordpress.com. I you

0:17:29 Thomas: You may have to spell that. Well actually, I'll link it in the the show notes awesome

0:17:33 Nathanael: Know That works for me too, yeah, I post things up there regularly, and people got questions, I might have answers, so you know just

0:17:41 Thomas: And you said it was Nathaniel.vitkus, or, oh, dot

0:17:45 Nathanael: One word, Nathaniel, bit, that, word, press, calm, yeah.

0:17:49 Thomas: Wordpress, I got, got it, I will put a link to that, awesome, are you on Twitter or anything, and

0:17:55 Nathanael: I'm on Twitter, um, and, he, bit, kiss, Twitter, yeah, great.

0:18:00 Thomas: Is that V-I-T-K-U-S? Oh, great, okay, I'll uh, I'll link your Twitter account if you don't mind when I post the episode, uh, cool, thanks again, and uh, hopefully we can talk again sometime.

0:18:32 Thomas: Joining me right now is Josh. How you doing, Josh? I know it's not great, but I'm gonna ask you that anyway as a pleasantry.

0:18:41 Josh: Thanks, it's been rough, but I'm doing the best I can, not so bad, all things considered, yeah,

0:18:48 Thomas: Right, right. Well, Josh contacted me, being a patron, or patron, I never know which to say, and sort of asked for my help. I'm, I'm not, I, I worry that I can't do enough for you, but, I am gonna try to do what I can. Josh has had a particularly unpleasant experience, and, and your family, I would say, has had an unpleasant experience with a church, and we're just, I don't know, I just want to give you the chance to tell your story and try to raise awareness however we can, and then we'll see what we can do with it, but why don't you go ahead and, I guess, launch into what happened,

0:19:29 Josh: Yeah, my father passed away Monday morning, he lost a battle with cancer, and my family was able to be there, my sister and my mom were, we were all there with him, and there's been a lot, I've got a lot of really nice comments from people all over the place. I just want to thank anybody who, who has reached out to me or my family. My family, it has really been great to to hear just all the positivity and love that's been sent our way. It's been wonderful.

0:19:58 Thomas: I'd certainly like to echo those condolences, um, that, that's very sad to hear, um,

0:20:02 Josh: Thank you. And that would be a sad enough story, I suppose. But it actually, just a few hours after my father's passing, life took a little turn for the strange. Came about through my parents' church. My parents have attended Gateway Frugal Baptist Church in Virginia Beach for over 30 years. Ever since I was, I'd say about two years old, I know I grew up in the church. I don't attend anymore. Neither does my sister. But my parents, you know, have been going ever since.

0:20:40 Josh: And so naturally, you would think that's where they would go to have my father's funeral. So the day that my father passed, the funeral home called, uh, the church for my mom, for my mother, and to set up the date, uh... for the funeral and set up, make the arrangements. And the church came back with, we aren't really willing to do the funeral the way you asked. What was unusual, it's not really unusual, but what made this different, uh, was that they asked for one of the former pastors of the church to, um, perform the the uh the funeral, yes.

0:21:19 Thomas: Family did, yeah.

0:21:21 Josh: Yes. That was my my father and mother's, that was their wish, um, the person that they were wanting to, um, the funeral, uh, had been the church, uh, had founded the church and uh had been there for, I know, over 30 years, um, I think he left the church, uh, he stepped down, he's kind of retired, after, well, it's probably about 10 15 years ago, yeah.

0:21:22 Thomas: Yeah, just clarify so how many years ago oh okay well Well, so it's been a while, but yeah.

0:21:46 Josh: Yes yes um um, even after he retired, you know, he was active in the church, you know, I went to the school there, so I saw him quite often. He spoke and was occasionally a guest speaker and all that. So you wouldn't think that would be anything unusual, but the church turned down my parents' request because they asked for somebody who wasn't currently on the staff.

0:21:49 Thomas: Okay. Okay, sure. Sure.

0:22:13 Thomas: And I mean, that's a big deal, because it would obviously mean a lot to your mother to have the pastor that she wanted overseeing the funeral and all that. And so the church has declined, just to sum up for everybody.

0:22:24 Josh: Right. And that's not an unusual occurrence either, um, under normal circumstances, you know, lots of, uh,

0:22:32 Thomas: Which? The request or them turning it down?

0:22:36 Josh: No, the request, um, you know, think of it this way, um, somebody dies, you know, uh, out of town, you know, they live in a different place from where they were born, a lot of people are buried where they're born, so they'll have somebody close come up and speak at their funeral, but it'll be back in their hometown, you know, um, there's lots of scenarios where that wouldn't be anything unusual.

They flat out told my, my mom, like, that we can't do it that way, we aren't going to, um, and that, you know, caught me off guard, so I was back in town with my, with my family, so I drove to the church, it's just down the road from my house, and I asked to speak to somebody there, and um, the first person I spoke to was the assistant pastor there, he sat me down, he was like, you know, what, you know, sorry about your loss, and what, what can I do for you, and I asked him, you know, just, you know, bluntly, I was just like, I don't understand why my mom's request is being turned down, at first he kind of hum and hawed about it, and uh, talked to me about my dad, and he just kind of avoided it for a little while, and then uh, he told me that it was simply church policy, and it struck me as an odd policy to have, I couldn't quite understand why wouldn't they allow somebody out of the church to anything at the church.

0:22:37 Thomas: Right, right, right. Right, sure, sure。 Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah

0:23:51 Josh: Ended up telling me basically that he wasn't the person that made that decision anyway. It was apparently the board of the Church and also the head pastor. So I naturally said, well, let's go up the ladder and talk to somebody else. So the uh, I got a hold of the head pastor, I got his phone number, he was out of town at a conference, and I called him and left a message, and he called me back later that evening, when I talked to him, uh, he kind of gave me a little bit of a run out for a round around at first as well, he didn't seem to be quite willing to answer the question, you know, I was trying to ask, you you know, just bluntly, because I just, at that point, I just wanted to know why.

0:24:06 Thomas: Yeah yeah you're just a little confused, I'm sure, I mean, why is it a big deal, yeah.

0:24:35 Josh: More than a little. Yeah, I mean, it was, you know... I was, I tried to explain to him, I was like, this is my father's last wish, he went here for 30 years, please just make this easier on my mom. You know, that's really the person.

0:24:49 Thomas: Yeah I was gonna ask I mean, I imagine your, your mom's got to be pretty broken up about it, right?

0:24:54 Josh: She was confused, she was, you know, everything else going on, it just completely overloaded her, um, it was really rough on her, and my sister was staying back with my mom to help her out, but you know, I just, I had to pursue this, I had to find out what was going on, my mom's hurting, you know, so I got him to give me a more solid answer, and he, he again reiterated his church policy, and I asked him, why is this his church policy? And he said it was recommended to them by, I don't remember, I don't know exactly what they have, but he said was legal advice the church was given.

0:24:54 Thomas: Yeah yeah, sure. Yeah yeah legal advice, wow.

0:25:40 Josh: Yeah, that made me wonder, you know, I started thinking, well, why would a church need legal advice about who speaks there during ceremonies? And that just seems like, you know, I can't imagine a scenario where that would be a problem, so I pressed him, why were you given this legal advice, you know, maybe thinking I could, you know, convince him that, hey, you know, let's make an exception here, it's not a right

0:25:41 Thomas: Yeah yeah you're not gonna be litigious or something, yeah, it's

0:26:05 Josh: You know, I, a case like, there was some weird circumstance where maybe they'd been, you know, yeah, I don't know, maybe they were worried that, you know, a lawsuit or something, so I, I was like, you know, like my mom's not gonna see you

0:26:17 Thomas: Still hard to imagine what the lawsuit would, would be relating to. A funeral, yeah.

0:26:18 Josh: Right my mom I was, you know, my mom is not gonna see, you, she just wants to have my dad's funeral there, where they went for 30 years, so he kind of hummed and hawed about it and just said, you know, that was the advice they were given, but I kept pressing him, and finally he told me it was due to recent Supreme Court decisions, that's exactly, that was exactly my reaction, I was like, what recent Supreme Court decisions, but then it hit me, and I was like, I said to myself, that can't possibly be what I think this is going to end up at.

0:26:21 Thomas: Yeah recent Supreme Court decisions? Okay I'm still confused, so you go ahead.

0:27:00 Josh: All right, well, I had an idea, but it seemed so silly at the time that it couldn't have possibly been that. It had to be something else. Maybe I'd missed a certain, you know, there's all kinds of cases that, you don't know, the average person doesn't hear about. Then told me, well, it was the recent decision over gay marriage.

0:27:10 Thomas: Yeah yeah hey

0:27:20 Josh: And all I could think was, was, I'm not trying to get my father married to Another man.

0:27:18 Thomas: Gay

0:27:26 Josh: I'm trying to have a funeral for him, so flabbergasted by the answer that I eventually, I just kind of dropped that line, because I couldn't, I couldn't understand it at first, I'm sure, you are, um, so the call ended up that he, he said he was going to talk to my mother and try to work something out, uh, which incidentally did not happen, um, my

0:27:25 Thomas: Married yeah I'm starting to piece together a theory in my mind now, maybe I, maybe I'm with you now, but go on. Yeah.

0:27:59 Josh: The funeral

0:28:00 Thomas: Like he didn't even call or just didn't work stuff out.

0:28:00 Josh: No he didn't call, even um it was, that was one of the more upsetting things as well. That he didn't even seem to really care, um, the call itself, maybe before we go on to what I ended up discovering about it, uh, the call itself, like, like, he just was adamant that they weren't going to do it, very adamant about it. And I asked him several questions, you know, that I thought were, you know, pretty pertinent to the situation. You know, this man, he's been the pastor there for, I think, two or three years now. He's a pastor, you now. And I ask him, if Jesus were standing beside you, what do you think, how do you think he would feel about this decision? Because I couldn't comprehend whatever was going on. So I was just grasping. I was like, well, maybe I need to go to his side of things to get him to see my point.

0:28:03 Thomas: Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:28:54 Josh: Told me point blank at that one that he didn't know. He didn't know what Jesus would say.

0:29:00 Thomas: Isn't that his job? I think it's his job to know.

0:29:02 Josh: And exactly, Exactly. And I pointed that out to him. I told him, I was, like, that is your job. That's what you do. That's what you're supposed to do, that's what they pay you to do.

0:29:13 Thomas: Yeah, that's what we give you way too much tax-free money to do, you Know? Know, yeah.

0:29:14 Josh: Um, Right. He was still adamant, and then I even went so far, and I felt this was a low blow, but you know what, it was a time for low blows. Um, I asked him, you know, if this is how he would want his mother treated. And Thomas, the man, told me no, that wasn't how he wanted his own mother treated, but that's still the decision he was making and at that, that point, I was just so furious. You know, I told him, you know, you need to call my mom, you need to get this sorted, you need to figure out something.

Her, and he told me that they were willing to do the service, but they had to do it on a different day because none of the pastors were going to be there, and they had to, you know, run the ceremony, and the other pastor that they wanted could speak, but he, he couldn't be the main, you know, he couldn't be the master of ceremonies or, you know, The call, I started, you know, really thinking about what he said. And I went back to, of course, the Supreme Court ruling gay marriage. Why would they not want somebody to speak at their church who wasn't part of their pastoral staff? And it dawned on me that what I believe is going on is that they were given legal advice that they should not allow other people to speak, because if they blanket refuse anybody else from running a ceremony at the church, then they never have to worry about a couple bringing in another pastor who will perform a

0:29:32 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, right.

0:30:53 Josh: Ceremony for a gay couple. And the only way to really protect themselves legally for it to be a true blanket rule, to the point where it covers every ceremony, weddings, funerals, you know, whatever else. My, I just realized all of a sudden I had, I was living a story of where my father's funeral was stopped by gay marriage. Yeah.

0:30:55 Thomas: Yeah, wow.

0:31:16 Thomas: That's a, that's Quite the punchline. Um, wow, yeah, I know it took me a second, but yeah, that was, that was what I was thinking as well, they, they have to close it off, because the minute they let somebody come from the outside do anything, then it's, then I guess it would be legal grounds to say you have to allow someone to perform a gay marriage, but I don't even know that it would be, you know, like, because they could still say that it's against their religion and against their, you know, their church, right? I mean, just having someone come and talk at a funeral is not really again Yeah, that's weird.

0:31:18 Josh: Right. Right.

0:31:55 Thomas: It's being very cautious, yeah.

0:31:57 Josh: I I mean, the way, I, I'm assuming that they're simply trying, trying to make it a, well, we've set a precedent, and they have this all-encompassing precedent, so, you know, just makes it, I guess, a little more ironclad in case somebody does try to sue them over it or something. Hurts so much, like, it hurts to see that these people were being so bigoted that They were, they're willing to hurt, you know, the people. People in their own, you know, like in their own flock is, you know, speaking as a pastor.

0:32:02 Thomas: Yeah.

0:32:20 Thomas: It Exactly. Yeah, sorry, god. Good. There's So much dedicated They're so dedicated to not allowing gay marriage, like it's so important to them that they're willing to hurt all kinds of people just for, just for the airtight legal precedent that might not even make a difference, you know, like that's how dedicated to bigotry they are, as you say, yeah.

0:32:50 Josh: Right. It's I, I mean, I'm sitting here telling you about it and it's, you know, been nearly a week now and I still it's hard to really comprehend that level of hate. I just, I didn't at the time, I didn't know what to do. I posted to a couple of groups that I'm in on Facebook and And, um, they got enough negative reviews on Facebook that they took their review page down.

0:33:02 Thomas: Yeah, oh,

0:33:20 Josh: Um, yes.

0:33:19 Thomas: The church, or Yeah, wow, yeah.

0:33:21 Josh: Talked to the pastor and, uh, when I was talking to him, I did tell him, you know, that I would probably be talking to other people about this. And he asked me if it was a threat, which I thought was a weird first thing to be, you know, concerned about. But I told him at the time that no, it's not a threat, it's, I'm, I'm just going to give him the opportunity to share his side of the story, you know, uh, there's always two sides of the story. I think I've been pretty, I think it presented this fairly objectively, you know, as much as I can.

Um, you know, the whole point of talking to people about this is I want that this is what's happening. Um, and if somebody does it to my mom, somebody's going to do it to somebody else's mom, and if there's one person doing it to people, there's going be others, and I, you know, I, I can't, I can, I can even begin to comprehend what this is going to mean, like if this is really the way that churches are going to be operating now, and not, obviously not all of them, but you know, I do

0:33:29 Thomas: Yeah.

0:34:25 Josh: Live in the South, I live south of the Mason-Dixon line, um, I live right on the Bible Belt, so, um, guess I shouldn't have expected much better than this, but I really did.

0:34:36 Thomas: Yeah, I mean, you would hope the Christian message of love and acceptance would maybe be a stronger motivator than, you just being very overly careful about a lawsuit or something that may lead them to perform gay marriage in their church. But I guess that's just how they are. I mean, they are, I guess, in reaction to the decision, which I guess freaked so many people out, that this is going to be the last bastion of bigotry, you know. They need to hide, and they're locking down the bat in the hatches of their church and make sure to keep it out.

0:35:15 Josh: Um, and just, um, is a happier ending to the story, um, uh,

0:35:16 Thomas: Oh, good. I was going to ask you if that's where it left off, but yeah.

0:35:23 Josh: Fortunately not, um, another, uh, church in, in, in my mother's town, um, uh, Virginia Beach, Freewill Baptist. Uh, they were very kind when they heard about, uh. What had happened, and they, um, called my mom and, um, offered to host it. Don't fret too much. There's still good people out there, but, uh, you know, in my, they, the person that my father wanted to speak did, and it was, um, it was, was really nice, uh, you know, my mom got a little piece out of that, but you on another level, the damage is already done, my mom already went through this terrible thing, the day my father died.

0:35:56 Thomas: Yeah, at a very critical time. Yeah, a very bad time, yeah.

0:35:58 Josh: Right. I mean, just hours later, and she's dealing with you, what I just explained to you, it's incomprehensible, they

0:36:04 Thomas: Yeah. How Did the, uh, did, was the, the pastor or the ex-pastor privy to this, um, was he involved in discussion at all, or did he not, did you not even tell him what was going on, or, well,

0:36:20 Josh: They ended up telling me, the, the current pastor of Gateway told me that another reason they didn't want to do it was because they had some disagreement with the former pastor that my parents wanted to have speak, um, and he did end, ended up, at the time, finally finding out about it, and um, he was, you know, he was shocked as well. I haven't talked to anybody face to face except for the pastor himself, who wasn't just completely taken aback and, you know, just appalled at what happened. You, fortunately, my father found a place to have a service, and got it taken care of. The service happened Friday.

0:37:02 Thomas: It's good that there's a somewhat, uh, happy ending to that. Obviously it's, you know, it's a little difficult for me to relate to, because church is, you know, not, not that important, but I can't imagine the, the feeling that your mom must have, uh, and, and all that, and it's, it's amazing to me that the church would be so, uh, just callous toward 30 year plus members, you know, crazy, yeah.

0:37:29 Josh: That's really what it boils down to, just callousness, just not caring. This is a place where people are supposed to go and, according to them, find Jesus and God and love. And, I just got a real taste yet again of how that's just not the case usually.

0:37:34 Thomas: Yeah.

0:37:49 Thomas: Well, this is very interesting, I'm gonna try to share this in what way I can, um,

0:37:55 Josh: Hopefully just show people like depths that they're willing to stoop to, to bigotry. I don't know how else to describe it. Like it's, it's hard to, it's hard to explain to people just, you know, the feeling you, you get when somebody tells you that, yeah, I hate another group of people so much that I'm willing to hurt your family.

0:38:01 Thomas: Yeah.

0:38:20 Thomas: Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Yeah. Well, you certainly have. I'm going to go ahead and just say, for my listeners, you have our sympathy and your mother has our sympathy. And I really just, that is an awful experience. I mean, even as non-believers, I can understand, you know, and I think most people would understand that that's definitely that's definitely a low blow you know that's a very low thing to do at a very bad time and I hope that it doesn't happen to anyone else and I hope that maybe I think it's cool that you motivated people to leave reviews on the Facebook I hope they weren't I mean I would hope that they weren't too you know abusive or anything but if if they're honest and they're, if, if they were, you know, how could you be doing this kind of thing? If they were honest reviews, then, then that's good.

0:39:09 Josh: Yeah. The The Reviews That people left were just overall they seem to be you know like I can't believe you're doing this what kind of a person does this Well.

0:39:18 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. And that's, that's honest feedback, as long as it's not harassment or anything, or, or you know that's I'm glad that you were able to motivate that. And I think that's a, a definitely a worthwhile tactic. And yeah, I, I I'll do what I can. Let's, let's, let's share this story and and see if we can help at all like you said if if it'll prevent the next person from having this done to them so thanks For coming on, sharing your story.

0:39:46 Josh: Thanks so much, Thomas.

0:40:08 Thomas: Well, that was definitely an action-packed episode. I just want to ask you guys a few things. Please don't skip or anything because it's important in times like these with Josh's story to be able to maybe share things like this, try to get it to spread. I'm certainly going to tweet about it with a link to the episode. If you follow me on Twitter at speak atheism, at speak atheism then maybe you can share this and more people will hear it and maybe it'll affect some change or something. Or if not that, at least maybe other people like Josh will know that they're not alone, and maybe someone else who's experienced something like that will feel comforted by hearing his story. Either way, it would help a lot if you shared it on Twitter or maybe on Facebook.com slash Atheistically Speaking, or just search it, of course.

0:40:57 Thomas: And then if you want to support the show, you can as always go to patreon.com/atheist, killer URL slash atheist, you're not going to beat that. Um, and also if you want to support me in a completely free way, as in no additional cost to you whatsoever, you can always write a review on iTunes, that's very helpful. Or just go to Atheistically Speaking and click on the Amazon link when you're going to order, order something on Amazon. It doesn't cost you anything more. And it gives us a very small percentage over here at Atheistically Speaking. By, and when I say us, I mean me and my team of cats, of course. So. All right. Well, thank you so much for listening. Action-packed episode. I hope you enjoyed it and I will see you next week.