AS160: Ishmael, Part 2

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:31 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to episode 160 of Atheistically Speaking. I'm your host, Thomas Smith. All right, today we're going to be continuing the interview with Ishmael. And but I do want to give a very minor kind of introduction to this segment. This was recorded a couple weeks back. Maybe I don't know, I don't remember exactly when, but at the time a particular Twitter exchange I had was fresh in my mind and I reacted very off the cuff with Ishmael, and I don't think I said anything that I regret saying or anything, but I think I will give a bit of an update on that after the the interview is over, so stay tuned for that. But in the meantime, here's part two with Ishmael.

0:01:38 Thomas: Well, let me, let me just back, back up a tiny bit and get a clearer picture. Did you, so did you end up meeting with a meetup group at all? Or was it just exchanges and emails that kind of turned you off? Cause I know when I tried it, I did an episode, you might remember about it and it was, it was an odd group. So I, I have have a I have a bad experience or not bad but like just a weird experience with local meetup groups so I I don't know yeah go ahead yeah

0:01:41 Ishmael: Yeah, OK. Okay. Yeah, I did do the meetup. And it was just like a lot of older people I didn't kind of relate to. But it was fine. There was no issues.

0:02:10 Thomas: I'm wondering if it was just somebody with a older antiquated view on on race you know

0:02:18 Ishmael: Yeah. The guy I found out was like in his 50s. I mean, Jesus, that sounds so negative to watch people in their 50s, but no, yeah. I means, yeah, yeah, he was the older guy and blah, blah, blah, you know? So, yeah, there weren't, like, young atheists in that group at all. And my roommate, who's an atheist who's always looking for chicks, saw the picture and was like, oh, there's no young hot chicks. And I'm like, whatever. But I went and it was lame. And when I came home, he laughed at me.

0:02:18 Thomas: Yeah yeah oh man yeah I feel bad I don't, I don't, like you mentioned, I don't want to say that, you know, it's like because people are old that I dont like them. It's nothing to do with that. It's just that I went to the meetup group and it was a lot of people that I just really didn't relate to. And I, I, but I know I have older listeners that, that I interact with that I totally relate to and it's totally cool. It's Just for some reason, I don't know why the meetups groups are so different than like online interaction. You know, it's just maybe a generation gap thing, but it's, it weird. I I've had a hard time finding people in meetup groups that I'd want to kind of be friends with I don't really get it

0:03:06 Ishmael: Yeah you you know what I think it is and and I related this to like uh to race as well like I feel like LA is not a good place for an atheist meaning um I bet you there are great meetup groups where religion has more of a voice because then people feel the need for. So I'm sure in Texas, the meetup groups, you know, Atheist Experience is another great podcast slash show that really got me into Atheists podcasting.

0:03:50 Thomas: Right yeah of course yeah although I wish someone would do something about their audio production, it's so bad but it's public access yeah it never works yeah it never works uh mm-hmm

0:04:04 Ishmael: But I know, I know. And their phone system never works. Their phone system. But that's what I think. Also, I think we have bad luck because you're in California, but I think you mentioned you're on Sacramento or something like that. So I don't know if it's like that out there, but in Los Angeles, I mean, Los Angeles is the, like, I feel like it's the Mecca for Wu, you know?

0:04:29 Ishmael: It's like astrology and just like, so I don't meet young atheists out here at all. So that might just be it.

0:04:19 Thomas: Yeah yeah absolutely it totally is. It absolutely is. Yeah. Yeah, people are, I would imagine, and this may be specific to California and probably more in LA, I think, you don't meet a lot of like religious people or Christians or, you know, like specifically denominational, but they are certainly not atheists. They're more like, oh yeah, I just believe in something. And then, And, but they're still mad at you for being an atheist. Like they still think it's, it's really crazy. It might be that I, who's I talking to? It might've been actually Tom and Cecil. They mentioned in, in Chicago, they don't really have much of that woo stuff that, you know, that, that we have here. I think it kind of goes hand in hand. It's just a bunch of people who believe in something, but not, it'S just not, they've kind of defined it out of existence. It's just like, well, it's a vague presence of something, you know, but

0:04:45 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Spiritual.

0:05:27 Thomas: There's, but, But we're still dumb for not believing in whatever they believe.

0:05:27 Ishmael: That's the go-to. Exactly. Exactly. Like I was saying earlier, the girl who put me on the cognitive dissonance, I said once at work, and I'm like an outspoken atheist. Everyone at work knows I'm an atheist. And it's almost like because the way I'm so aggressive, they're afraid to even challenge me or say it's wrong. I feel like if there was some quiet, you know, kept to himself guy they learned was an atheist, they'd go at him. But with me, I'm like, bring it on. Like some woman, some woman who I normally, and I still respect and I always look up to her almost like an aunt, she brought up ghosts and just reflex.

0:06:06 Ishmael: I was like, what are you talking about? And it was so out of character. She kind of like flinched. I'm Like, ghosts, what? Like, so I'm so aggressive in my, in just not believing in that.

0:06:06 Thomas: Oh, man. Yeah.

0:06:19 Ishmael: But the girl who put me, go ahead.

0:06:17 Thomas: That's awesome. I wish we worked together, man, I would be so fun to have you in the office. Like, that'd be awesome.

0:06:26 Ishmael: Yeah, people are afraid. People, like my boss, when I was sick, had me get, I think it's called Echinacea. And I spent like $15 for it. And then I learned what it was. And I kind of went to him, like, what the hell is going on? Why did you have me buy this crap? And he was so like, What? I was like, No, this is garbage. Like, I should make you, and it's so out of character, because I'm usually like, you know, good morning, sir, and blah, blah, bla, but when it comes to, but the girl who put me on the cognitive dissonance, I was like, man, it's so crazy that you're an atheist, and the reason why I actually said that was because she just believes in anything, like,

0:06:33 Thomas: Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, man.

0:06:57 Thomas: That's awesome, yeah.

0:07:09 Thomas: Yeah.

0:07:09 Ishmael: Just all kind of, well, she believes in astrology, and she said once how, yeah, I totally believe in it. And I simply said, she has a twin sister. I was like, um, so you believe astrology had like, where the stars are when you're born has something to do with your personality. She was like totally. I Was like, so you have a twin Sister and she's like, yeah, I'm like, are you and your twin sister alike? She's like no, we're totally different. And I just looked at her like, Um, hello.

0:07:34 Thomas: Yeah.

0:07:35 Ishmael: But anyway, so I said, so it's crazy. You're an atheist. She's like, what, like, and she's just one of those California people who, you know, kind of, yeah.

0:07:42 Thomas: That's so weird, hey. I can respect that, though, at least she's able to listen to their show and get into it. That's yeah.

0:07:48 Ishmael: Yeah. That's True, yeah.

0:07:50 Thomas: That's so funny, though, man. I so, I mean, this is a sampling here of what you get if you're gonna tune into Ishmael's podcast, Opinionated guy Yeah.

0:07:52 Ishmael: Yeah. Just me rambling. Yeah.

0:08:03 Thomas: No, that's great, though. You have good stories, that's funny. Um, I, man, I wish we... Oh, I, I wish we work together. That would be so fun. I would love that because it's hard. There aren't a lot of atheists. And if there are, usually it's like being undercover a little bit. There's parallels. It's like getting a communist in the 50s. It's, you got to find your fellow communist, but you got be careful because if someone else... No, it's not that bad, but it's kind of weird. Because you never know who's going to be a

0:08:39 Ishmael: Yeah. It is that bad, though, in some places, yeah.

0:08:43 Thomas: Little bit. You never know because you just never know. Someone could react really badly to you, you know, just for being you. And it's almost acceptable. Like, for example, I have this guy at work. Someone just said the word God, like, oh God, you know, like that. And he's like, whoa, whoa, I'm really religious, you now. And I was just like, like, ah, if it were me, what would I've done, I, I wasn't me, but I, I almost want to say like, okay, I'm not, so I can say what yeah.

0:08:47 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah.

0:09:10 Ishmael: I would have jumped on him.

0:09:16 Thomas: Yeah, I want to be like, I'm just, that's cool, you cannot say that, and then I'll say it like, you know, but, but people would not side with you like that, you would, you would be the asshole in that situation. A hundred percent.

0:09:20 Ishmael: Yeah, yeah, No, You're right.

0:09:27 Thomas: Be like, oh,

0:09:27 Ishmael: Oh, I'm always the asshole at work, I'm always, yeah. I

0:09:31 Thomas: That's awesome, yeah, that should, should be, oh, okay, I know you got your podcast name, but that could have been one, like, I'm Always The Asshole, that could've been, podcast, but

0:09:40 Ishmael: Actually, I actually thought it would be Angry Black Rant, um, Angry Atheist Asshole.

0:09:51 Thomas: Then people are gonna think you're a white guy, let's face it, from Angry Atheist Asshole, because that's the stereotype, but maybe that'd be funny, yeah, I

0:09:58 Ishmael: Right, yeah, no, so, Oh, did you see that, what would you do, that they recently did, oh, man, you, you know the ABC show What Would You Do?

0:10:05 Thomas: Don't think I did, what's that, no,

0:10:10 Ishmael: They like put these scenarios I don't, I don't even own a TV, but I go to ABC.com to look for news and stuff.

0:10:10 Thomas: I, I didn't watch, like any TV ever, yeah nice right sure sure Is

0:10:18 Ishmael: Well, they have a What Would You Do and a lot of times it's great, actually, Seth from The Thinking Atheist recently said something about this, but I noticed it, like, before it was essentially last week that it happened, because they usually, you do like, they'll put hidden cameras, put people in a restaurant, and one really good one was a kid who came out as gay to his parents, huh.

0:10:36 Thomas: It like a prank thing, or is it like a prank thing, or does it, but

0:10:39 Ishmael: No, it, well, it's, it's, it wants to see how people will react in certain situations.

0:10:45 Thomas: Is it an actual, like, real kid who's coming out, okay. So it's a setup thing, but okay, gotcha.

0:10:45 Ishmael: No, no, it's actors. It's Actors, yeah, so an actor kid came out to his friends and said, I'm gay, and the parents were like, no, you're not, you know, and just berated him and they wanted to see how people reacted, and people reacted great, it's actually one of those things where you, you leave feeling really good. People are like, hey, sir, I'm sorry. You can't talk to your kid like that. And they'll do one where, exactly.

0:10:51 Thomas: Oh, my gosh. Hmm. Oh, like people around them, like other, I gotcha. I got you, okay.

0:11:11 Ishmael: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like actors in a scenario with real people around them. And they had a great one with a guy who says, oh, I don't want you, a Muslim person, serving me in Texas, right? And there was a guy Who happened to be in the military who was like, nah, F that. How dare you do that?

0:11:16 Thomas: Oh, I'd be worried somebody's gonna, gonna attack somebody in this show.

0:11:29 Ishmael: I know.

0:11:30 Thomas: Man, yeah,

0:11:30 Ishmael: No, but this is the part that's atrocious. They did what, and this show has been pretty good with this, right? All these things make you feel good, right, and then they do one where it's like, exactly, but then they doing this, a family's praying, and an atheist is like, hey, hey stop praying, I'm offended by that, can you believe that? Like what atheist, like they obviously, and it was in Texas, and they wanted to see how how people would react. How do you, like, that's not even worth the experiment. For one, it's not even true, but the fact that you would, and so many people bombarded their Facebook group, I think it was over a thousand just people just so offended, obviously all atheists, because religious, I don't know, whatever, about

0:11:39 Thomas: They're like kind of liberal-minded sort of stuff, uh, yeah, oh, man, so

0:12:17 Ishmael: Religious people, but, yeah, yeah, exactly.

0:12:17 Thomas: It was a very bad uh, stereotype that they portrayed, yeah. Well, that's a good point, I mean, it is, that is, you know, I mean, is that so different than portraying some other minority group as, like, really, you know, just crappy, I mean just like an atheist walks around just being mad at people praying, you know, it's, yeah, wow.

0:12:31 Ishmael: Exactly. I almost feel like the example, and I tried to tell this to my sister, who is not an atheist, who believes in the Bible literally, unfortunately, very smart person but when it comes to that she doesn't, and I try to explain because she didn't see what was wrong with it, and I said, so what if they use that with a black person, and I tried to think of something quick, I was like, let's say the waitress was rude and the family didn't tip her because she, she was rude. And a black guy across the way said, hey, you're racist for not tipping her. Oh, almost like kind of saying, oh, black people always play the race card kind of thing. That's essentially what they were saying about atheists. Oh, because we don't want to have you praying before a city council meeting. Now we're saying we don'T want families praying in restaurants.

0:12:47 Thomas: Hmm, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's slightly different, thing, like one's government and one's whatever you want to do because you're, you know, your personal right. Like, it's, it's a kind of a, it's not a very fine line, it's actually a very, very, you know, obvious line between the two things, yeah.

0:13:24 Ishmael: Like uh, yeah, yeah, like exactly. Yeah. So a lot of people were offended, I was offended, and you know, but that's how it goes, yeah.

0:13:41 Thomas: Yeah. No, kidding, well, we keep getting sidetracked. Again, this is your angry black rants that you had.

0:13:48 Ishmael: I talk too much. I

0:13:52 Thomas: No, I like it. I think that you have a great personality for podcasting. I think I'm excited to see what happens with your podcast and everything.

0:14:01 Ishmael: Appreciate you saying that.

0:14:03 Thomas: No, definitely. And let's see, where can we go? I definitely want to bring something up before I forget, because it relates to Rondale and stuff. I had someone on Twitter, and I wonder if she'll still be a listener. I don't know. But I had someone on Twitter named Lauren and she, she was complaining about me talking to Tom and Cecil about the Tim Hunt stuff. And, you know, you'll know this was a few episodes ago and yeah. And I, it's, it'S hard. And specifically she said, you Know, hearing three white men discuss an issue that was mostly about women was boring.

And then I just thought like, like, what does the white part have to do with that? Like, why, why can't it, you I just want to make a few statements. Like, I think It's totally valid for her to complain about that, or to complain about if she wants to tell me that, you know, there's not enough representation of, of, of her group on my show. It's fine for people to do that. I just wanted to take this opportunity to to say a couple of things. First, what does the white have to do with talking about Tim Hunt?

Like, what is the white part that, that I felt like was just part of a reaction where you're allowed to say, oh, white men, white men all the time, and it came out because it's not relevant there. Sure, maybe the, the gender part is, maybe the, you know, because we're men, we're not gonna appreciate the, you know, plight of women or something, maybe that's relevant, but the white par, what is that? I mean, I, mean, I, everyone involved was white. Like, what do I need to, get a, find a, everyone of a different race and get, like, all their perspectives on it.

0:14:03 Ishmael: Okay. Yeah.

0:14:31 Ishmael: I listened Listen to that.

0:14:50 Ishmael: Yeah.

0:15:39 Thomas: But the thing is, I want to say that I told this to Rondale, like I'm, I Want to have more perspectives on my show. I really do like more than anything. And I told her on Twitter and I want To say it to people now, cause maybe they don't figure it behind the scenes or whatever. I've recently invited, this is apropos of nothing, thing. Like for different reasons, I invited Greta Christina to come back on the show and I invited Jamila Bey to come on the show for the, she's never been on before.

0:16:05 Ishmael: They're great.

0:16:06 Thomas: Well, they both, they both blew it off and it's like, yeah, well I had, I had Greta Christina on before and I feel like Greta, Christina blew it this time because she doesn't have anything to promote, to be honest with you. If you want my honest opinion before she had a book to promote.

0:16:06 Ishmael: Both of them are great, yeah. Really?

0:16:18 Ishmael: Okay, yeah, yeah she's only been on podcasts when she was promoting her thing. Understandably, but

0:16:22 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. She She wrote, well, yeah, I know. And the thing is, I get it. I don't want to sound like I'm whining about it. And that's why I didn't even bring it up. Like I wouldn't have mentioned to anyone. I don't complain, like call people out. Oh, how dare you not come on my show? There's a million podcasts now. And you'll find this too, Ishmael. There's million podcasts. Now, every dude named Ishmael is starting a podcast.

0:16:25 Ishmael: Yeah, but

0:16:48 Thomas: And yeah, that's right. Well, you have an advantage because you're in a segment of the market that is very, very underrepresented. So that actually, interesting.

0:16:48 Ishmael: Is he black though? But Minorities, in general don't seem to listen to podcasts. I mean, I, I try to tell people at work, young people about podcasts and they're like, what's that? And I'm like, are you kidding me? Oh,

0:17:07 Thomas: Well, I think that'll, but that'll be an opportunity for you. I really think it will be great. And there are a few, I mean, people have mentioned there are a few podcasts by atheists of color and that's awesome. But I just, look, I thank Greta Christina. She comes on when she has something to promote and I wanted to talk to her about an article she wrote. It was about why you shouldn't be say that you're fiscally conservative, but socially liberal. It was an article. And I thought it was interesting. I was like, Hey, let's talk about that. She never responded, whatever.

She's maybe she's too busy. She doesn't remember coming on the show, whatever it is. I don't care. I wasn't going to call it out. But then I had something with Jamila Bey where she said she was going to come on. And then, you know, she said she was having some family issues and I don't want to, I'm not trying to air any personal stuff, but basically it, it turned into essentially, essentially, it sounded like she just didn't want to do it. You know, she, she put it off, she might have had legitimate, totally legitimate, legitimate, like family stuff going on, totally fine.

But I, you know, I kind of asked her a little while later, like, hey, I hope everything's okay. You know? Do you, if you have time, maybe we can schedule something again. And she didn't really respond. And it's like, okay, maybe she just doesn't want come on, whatever. I don't, I don't think too much about that stuff, but I just, I want to bring it up because I do try to get different people on the show. It's just atheists

0:17:08 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah. Um, Oh, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.

0:18:25 Thomas: Are mostly white guys, like it just, it sucks, but that's kind of it, like, so it's not as easy as people might think and maybe I can do more, um, I'll certainly try to do as much as I can to get as many different people in the show as I can, but it's like a guarantee that I can just get whoever I want on the show, and there's a saturation in the market of white guys.

0:18:28 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah.

0:18:48 Ishmael: And and, I wonder if, getting back to the tweets that you were having, um, with Lauren, uh, uh, so is she saying you shouldn't talk about it unless there's a woman, preferably not white? Because for some reason she brought that up.

0:18:49 Thomas: Yeah.

0:19:02 Thomas: I don't know, well Yeah. Right.

0:19:06 Ishmael: I mean, obviously she was just talking about white male, that whole check your privilege kind of thing. Um, which only, you, you know, well, before I go off on another tangent, um, yeah, cause, cause, cause there's been a thing about white feminism. Have you heard about that recently?

0:19:11 Thomas: Yeah. Keep your tangents. Uh, Um, Maybe I

0:19:24 Ishmael: Yeah, it had to do with Nicki Minaj and Taylor Swift and some journalists. I get someone saying you should be more proactive with having more than white males, but to say you can't talk about something because you're a white male or it's only white men talking about it, I don't know. Know that that doesn't make sense to me because so, so then you just won't talk about it and then how does that help, you know?

0:19:25 Thomas: I'm, oh Okay. Yeah. Well, I get just Well, to her it sounds like Yeah. Yeah.

0:19:58 Thomas: Yeah.

0:19:58 Ishmael: I don't know

0:19:58 Thomas: And it gets tough. It, it's a tough position and, uh, I, I don't, you know, I'm not, no one, don't shed any tears for me. But it's, uh, you know, it's hard being a white male. No, I'm, I'm not going down that road, but it, it, from her perspective, I can understand how it maybe looks like, oh, you, you know, you just get white people on all the time and like, and and maybe she's tired of it. She said she listens to a lot of podcasts, they're always white males, they're all, you know, it's like, I understand the frustration, and I hope she's still listening. If she gave up on my show, that's, what can she do? Try to turn off your computer sounds if you can.

0:20:06 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah. I just, I just hit, uh, mute.

0:20:36 Thomas: But I can understand it from her perspective. I just wanted to let people know that I do try and it's not as easy as just getting on whoever you want. And I would say that because of the way the market, to use an economics term, is, you know, atheists of color, all that, they're in more demand for appearances. Like it's, they are stretched more thin, you know, and it's like, it's I don't know. It's not easy.

0:20:36 Ishmael: Yeah.

0:21:06 Ishmael: Jamila Bey, I feel like, is the only black female atheist I've heard of as far as going on podcast. She went on, I don't know, a couple that I listen to. I can't remember which ones, right, now, but

0:21:11 Thomas: Right. I'll rub it in. No, I'm just kidding. She won't come on my, who knows? I mean, who know's the reason?

0:21:19 Ishmael: Yeah. That was like, over a year ago, but yeah. I mean,

0:21:26 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. And again, I, I wouldn't have even brought it up. I didn't bring it up this happened a few months ago and I, and it's, it's not, I don't mean to call those people out at all. I don't mean to call those two individuals out. I just wanted to let people know, like, it's not, it's not just a question of, oh, hey, get this person on your show. Like, it's, it's not easy. And maybe, I don't know, maybe I'm doing something wrong. I,I don't know. I do my best. I think I'm pretty good at reaching out to people and and and getting them on the show, but also I don't know if, if it can, I don't know, can you just argue with the content of what we're saying? I mean, sure, I, the reason I wanted to talk to Cog Diss about Tim Hunt was they, they have perspective on the other side of it because they make jokes, they make politically incorrect jokes, they, they make all that stuff. I wanted to talk about that side of

0:21:27 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah. And Not

0:22:15 Thomas: The issue. I think free speech.

0:22:17 Ishmael: Just that you guys had an earlier conversation regarding being fired yeah, being fired for something you said, so it kind of, it fit in the way it was set up.

0:22:21 Thomas: Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I liked it

0:22:28 Ishmael: It fit it.

0:22:28 Thomas: And I tried to devil's advocate with them because I actually think I'm more on the side of, of a little bit against Tim Hunt for lack of a better way of putting it than they are. So I,I did my best to represent the arguments and I want that to happen. I want to have people of different backgrounds come on.

0:22:46 Thomas: And it's just, it's not always easy to get the right person every single time. And then it becomes a bit weird. Like, okay, there's an issue with a black, community. Okay. Let's find a black person to talk to. There's an issues with this community. Let's let's find that person to talk to you. Then it becomes a little like, doesn't that get a little kind of oddly racist that it's like, we have to find the, yeah, right, right. Yeah. And then I, yeah. Then I could be accused of that. Like if I find the wrong, oh no, you found

0:22:39 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah. And You, yeah.

0:23:00 Ishmael: Yeah. Like how Fox news does, let's find a black person who agrees with us. Yeah.

0:23:14 Thomas: The wrong woman to talk to who happened to be pro Tim Hunt. It's like, what, I don't know, it's tough. There

0:23:19 Ishmael: Well, I a way to fix that, clearly. I mean, it's just staring you in the faces. I'm your new co-host. I can

0:23:26 Thomas: You go, are you, are you a woman though? I'm gonna need some female representation, so yeah.

0:23:31 Ishmael: Take on a female voice as my voice gets scratchy, yeah.

0:23:33 Thomas: Yeah. Well, I, so that, all I wanted to say is, and I, I came across this with Rondale, and it was a new thought that I had and I think it's true. I will do my best. I still will do my best. And I don't mean to call out Lauren at all, like, I, I hope she's still listening. I'm doing my best. I appreciate the criticism, but I think the better solution is to have people like Rondale and people like you and people, maybe Lauren, start a podcast. I will do my best to promote it so that it's not just a question of I'm controlling the conversation and I have to pick who I'm getting on. I don't think that's going to be as good a solution as people starting, starting their own projects and getting going and, and people, you know, cause it's, it's not, it's just, it just, you're not, it, it doesn't work. It's not that hard now, you know? I mean, you, people can do it. Uh, Ishmael, you know, he's doing it.

0:24:05 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

0:24:31 Thomas: So, so that's what I want to encourage. I will still continue to do my best and I don't have, you Know, like a racist guest policy of trying to only get white people, but that's the market. I mean just look at iTunes, look at the top charts. It is all white people and it's it's, you know, those are the people who are more are willing to come on shows most often and it is tough really?

0:24:44 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah. And I actually, since I came to the idea to do the podcasting, I've Googled black atheist podcasts and maybe they just didn't come up, but I couldn't find any. I know earlier you said there are some, but I, I literally, so I started listening to other podcasts that didn't happen to be atheists, but were just black podcasts just to see, you know, their, you know the way they went about it, but I literally couldn't find any. Oh, I did find one, but then the guy I contacted him, he's like, oh I'm not doing that anymore. Like it didn't have dates on it, so I, right?

0:25:20 Thomas: Oh? Wow. He was like too much pressure from the community had to step down Yeah. That

0:25:29 Ishmael: It was weird. It was called like Black Atheist Dating Pool Podcast. It was very weird, you know, when I went on it, it didn't have anything to do about dating as far as the episodes I listened to, so it was weird, it was experience cool.

0:25:40 Thomas: Is odd. Well, maybe you, maybe you need, this is perfect, I mean you are going to corner the market, I am going to, I am gonna promote the hell out of it and you know that is how it is going to go. And I just want to encourage people to go to be self-starters. And oh, sorry, I should have said this. If you are someone, maybe you don't want to have a podcast, but you do come from a different background and you want to give your point of view. First thing I did was say, "Hey, Lauren, you want to come on the show and just say what you want to say? I want to have you on. I really do." And if you ever have an opinion that you want want to make clear and you'd be think you'd be a good guest, feel free, just contact me, anyone, and just say, "Hey, I want to say such and such about this issue, here's my background," I'll let you on the show. It's really, it's just, it's frustrating, it's hard, yeah.

0:26:33 Ishmael: Yeah, yeah, and and in a way that's kind of how I want my podcast to work as well, like if you disagree, definitely come on and let's talk about it, like I'm very, very into debate slash argument. So I have no problem defending myself. And I actually get excited when I'm proven wrong and my ideas change. Because for me, that was life changing when I stopped being homophobic and when I stopped being sexist and when I stopped being religious. That's the ultimate, you know? I mean, it's like, I love that because you just grow as a person, you know? But I don't know. I mean some people like to just give you their little two cents and then gonna be like, "Nah, I don't want to talk anymore about it, I told you that you were whatever," and I gotta go.

0:26:41 Thomas: Right. Right. Yep. Yeah. That is how a lot of people are. It's tough, but what are you going to do, so. I, you know, I do my my best and uh, that's well, I'll, I guess I'll leave it at that for for that issue. But all right, well, it looks like actually I'm, I'm plum out of time here, so we'll have to.

0:27:17 Ishmael: So. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

0:27:35 Thomas: Well, maybe you'll have to check out your blog, Angry Black Rant. Everyone check out AngryBlackRant.com uh for the Martin Luther King story we, or sorry, blog post that we referenced, uh, or maybe you're going to be talking about it in your podcast someday, we'll see. Hmm.

0:27:52 Ishmael: And I'm gonna have the podcast up, I'm, I'm going to try and get episode up this week, and and just so you know, the ang, the Martin Luther King, it wasn't really about him, it was about the way people used him in relation to the black community and how he's the the sole, like, uh, civil rights leader, no one else has spoken about, but yeah, that's essentially what that uh write-up is about, yeah, and check out AngryBlackRant.com, and if you want to contact me, you can contact me at ishmael at angryblackrant.com yeah.

0:28:07 Thomas: Nice.

0:28:27 Thomas: Do you have a Twitter account or anything there? You go, I'll have to, I'll have to tweet this one, let me write that down, all right. Uh, thanks for coming on, Ishmael, really appreciate it, and I'm looking forward to hearing things from you. Sure.

0:28:30 Ishmael: Angry black rant yeah okay I yeah I really really appreciate it too, Thomas. I love your podcast, and I appreciate you giving me the chance. And real quick, my name is spelled I-S-H-M-A-E-L, just so people know.

0:28:51 Thomas: Sure, awesome, thank you.

0:28:53 Ishmael: Thanks, Thomas!

0:28:53 Thomas: Very much.

0:29:07 Thomas: Well, there you have it. So, I want to give a bit of an update. Like I said, it's been a little while since this was recorded, so I interacted a little more with Lauren on Twitter, maybe she's listening, and I want to reiterate that I do respect that opinion. I think it's hard because I was having the guys from Cognitive Dissonance on, and that was thing one. So that's premise one. And then I thought, "But what should we talk about? Oh, maybe they'll have an opinion on Tim Hunt." They make jokes, blah, blah. It wasn't, like it wasn't like what the Republicans do with, "Let's have a panel on, you know, female reproductive health," and then, "Okay, let's find seven white old males to talk on it."

0:29:54 Thomas: Like I understand maybe I hope I'm not splitting hairs. Like I think there's a bit of a difference. If I were to do like, OK, I'm going to have the definitive panel on Tim Hunt. It would certainly include women, I guess. Yes. But maybe maybe the problem is that in this day and age is you guys can tell me, do I live in a time? Am I doing a podcast in a movement where I can't simply have my friends from Cognizant and say, what you know, what do you think about this? Are we and I don't mean that like sarcastically. I mean, maybe it's true. Maybe I can't just have like, for example, a white guy on to talk about, you know, black people getting killed by the police.

0:30:41 Thomas: Like maybe we just live in that day and age where if I do that, it's just not going to be viewed favorably no matter what. But it would be a little sad just because I know, you know, and I'm the only one who knows my mind. Like I'm not, I would love to include women on this discussion or people of color on a discussion about the police and all that.

Like it, it just came from the fact that I thought of who I was going to have on first and then thought, "Hmm, what's a topic we can talk about that they might have an opinion on? Oh, we'll go with this." So do we live in a day and age where I have to think Tom and Cecil?

Do I need to think of like, OK, what are white people topics that we can talk about?" Like, is it, it is a little depressing if we live in that day and age. I'll be honest with you. I mean, if, if that's really where we are, then I will probably adjust in order to, because I don't want to perpetuate the exclusive nature that of society sometimes.

0:31:40 Thomas: Times. Like, I don't want to perpetuate any sort of feeling of trying to keep people of color or women out of the discussion. I really don't. Like that's something I really don't wanna do. So maybe we do live in that day and age where if, when I have time and see salon, I have to think like, what's a neutral topic that, you know, no one's going to get mad for having them talk about, but I don't know that that sounds depressing to me at the same time. Let me give you just a a little update. So let me know what you think on that. And if anyone, feel free to let me know, atheistically speaking, Gmail or you can Twitter, speak atheism or, you know, Facebook slash atheisticallyspeaking, any number of places, Patreon, patreon.com/atheist would be a good place.

0:32:26 Thomas: But anyway, the other update is I tweeted, and I don't know why I, I did this, I think again I reacted too quickly to this criticism, I think, because I tweeted at Jamila Bey and at Greta Christina and said, these people, I invited them both on as an example, not like these are the only two people I've ever invited on that were women, like I just said, "Oh, for example, recently I invited on these two people," and they both blew it off, I used that word and that phrase. And I shouldn't have, that was definitely a mistake. Um, even though honestly, it's the truth, but it, it, uh, it's a little too direct, I think, for any sort of relationship. Like it's not a, it wasn't, it was a dumb thing of me to say, I'll admit that, because it wasn't a good way to maintain a relationship.

0:33:18 Thomas: That was something that I said in frustration that I shouldn't have said, even thought it honestly, it's, it's the truth. Like I, I believe it's the truth. I mean, um, but so what happened was, to Greta Christina's credit, she responded and she said essentially like, "Oh, well, why don't you resend me the email that you sent?" Um, and then she said, "I'd be happy to come on." So at the same time, she does have a book she wants to promote, but you know, at least she, I said, "Oh, sorry for using the phrase, blew it off." That was a, you know, that was a bad choice of words, she didn't seem to mind, she said, "I'd be happy to do the show," so, but I think that's really to her credit because she could have said, "Oh, screw you," like, I can't believe, you know, what she said or whatever.

And then, um, Jamila Bey on the other hand said, "Wow, this is the first I'm hearing of this," you know, very, uh, I think she said charming or something like that sarcastically, and that was funny because I responded back to her while we, we exchanged lengthy Facebook messages about it. So it's not, she just, I guess she didn't associate, you know, my name with the show, which is fine.

But I, I don't know, I think if, if it were me and I had in my past exchange lengthy Facebook messages where, where I kind of essentially boo someone off for a show and then later I saw someone else, even if I didn't know that it was the same person, I might take a second to check the name and see, like, "Oh, was this that person?" My boy, so she kind of went with the, "Oh, this is

0:34:53 Thomas: The first I'm hearing of this, and I said, well, no, it's not the first you're hearing of it. And so I don't think there will be a good reconciliation with Jamila Bey. And that's, that's, you know, it's, it's my fault for saying "blew it off." I shouldn't have used that word. I should have said they were both too busy or something and just given them the the benefit of the doubt. This is just an interpersonal lesson that I've, you know, I'm learning here. I reacted. It's so easy with Twitter and with any social media to, you know... Maybe I've had a glass of wine. Maybe it's late. I react badly, which doesn't, I don't tweet a whole lot, but you know, that's something that happens so easily now. Uh, so that I'm guessing that relationship with Jamila Bey is probably not, I mean, that was all, we didn't exchange any mean words per se, but it was just was like, eh, I don't know that she has much to gain from trying to reconcile.

0:35:46 Thomas: And I've already said, uh, that she blew it off. So there's no, you know, what am I going to do? Um, but in all fairness, uh, in all honesty, I, in a month, I could probably message her and be like, "Hey, want to come on this show?" And she might not remember what it is. So maybe I could get her on because I'd love to talk to her, but uh, we'll see how that is. So there's some very honest behind-the-scenes stuff that goes on, and I wanted to tell you guys that because I want to be honest, and I really, um, I don't know, that's just how I am. I wanted to let you know what was going on, and it's not, it's really not a big deal or anything. I just wanted to, um, explain kind of the motivation behind that stuff. We'll, so, you can maybe expect Greta Christina on sometime soon, and you probably can't expect Jamila Bey on, but who knows?

0:36:35 Thomas: Maybe I'll try to reach out again. And I've also gotten recommendations for other people to have on who might have different backgrounds, different voices. It feels a little arbitrary to me, but at the same time, it's not arbitrary if I happen to have just always white people, like white men, on my show. That's not, not arbitrary. Uh, and I don't want to do that. So, um, so I'm gonna, that's my, that's my pledge, I'm going to do my best to keep up the diversity of views and of backgrounds on the show, because I think it's interesting, and I do think it is important. So with that being said, I would like to thank any new patrons. I have, I'm gonna take a stab at the last time I thanked patrons. Did, did I thank Bonnie Baker? If not, thank you.

0:37:20 Thomas: Thank you, Dan Hansell. Thank you, Brian M. I'll just say thank you, Timo Zimmermann. Thank you so much for becoming patrons of the show. I really appreciate it. And I hope that more people will go on to patreon.com/atheist if they'd like to support what I'm doing. It really means a lot. And that's it for this week. Thank you so much, as always, for listening. And that was interesting. Bit of behind-the-scenes guest booking information for you guys. I know. Maybe that wasn't interesting at all. Apologies if it wasn't. But it was something that happened. It was real. I was honest with you guys, so there you go. So thanks for listening, you have my pledge that I will always be honest about stuff because that's how I am. And thank you for joining me, and I will see you next week.