The First Openly Autistic Lawyer in Florida on What Law Firms Get Wrong

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:00 Clip: Thank you.

0:00:03 Haley: You talk about your experience as an autistic person is so individual, and so can be really anxiety inducing, that My best friend was like, well, what do you actually enjoy doing? I like to write, I like to talk, and I want to help people. And with a completely straight face, he looks at me and goes that's what lawyers do

0:01:17 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Opening Arguments. This is episode 1294. I'm Thomas. That way over there, too far over there is Matt Cameron. I am now no longer in Boston.

0:01:28 Clip: Just hours ago.

0:01:29 Thomas: Actually, I'm still in your office, but Matt went to California. It's weird.

0:01:32 Clip: That's right. Just trading off. You know, I'm just still feeling the presence of a union office. It was such a good time. And back to it, back on different time zones. And I want to tell you about a word that I think I've invented. It's not often that you get to invent a word. Shakespeare pretty much did them all. All the words.

0:01:48 Thomas: Creator of the English language, Shakespeare, famously.

0:01:52 Clip: Words.

0:01:52 Thomas: Honestly?

0:01:52 Clip: Nobody could have possibly created more English words. But the fact that this word didn't exist, and I googled several times just to be sure that nobody's really using this word. Been thinking a lot about lawtism, which is, well, there's on the spectrum. And it's a personal journey, as those who listened to the episode with Peter O 'Neill back in July, which I strongly recommend, really had a great conversation with Peter. Was 08 -12 -80, and he wrote his memoir about finding out at retirement after a long and successful career in products liability law that he was on the spectrum. And it explains so much of what he was good at, about what he liked about his career, but also what he had been frustrated with his entire life. I had been thinking a lot about this personally because I'm 46 years old and I didn't grow up in an environment where we were looking for people on the Spectrum. And after a lot of sort of back and forth and reading and talking to counselors and therapists and mental health professionals. After maybe a misdiagnosis or two, I think what we've landed on is that I have what they call all DHD, which is the combination of somewhere being on somewhere in the spectrum.

0:02:02 Thomas: Lawtism. Which I vaccines is that? I just follow our official government health policy.

0:02:54 Clip: Them. And I'm absolutely convinced that I'm just born this way and I'm okay with it. By Peter's book because was finding this out at 65 as he's winding down his career and looking back. And I'm finding this out during COVID basically in the middle of my career and I'm in my 40s now. Thought it'd be fun to go out and talk to somebody who found this out at the beginning of their career, who started their career with autism. And this is personal to me, but I realized when I was looking around that there is nobody talking about lawyers on the spectrum, hardly at all, except for our guest today and are the two people. So you get the perspective of someone who knew at the age of three that she's on the spectrum, and you get the perspective somebody at the ages of 65 if he's on spectrum. I think those are both really interesting places to start. Then you got me in the middle, and a lot of people that I'm knowing or talking to now who are coming to realize that a lot the things in their life that haven't made a lot of sense or that they've been frustrated by can be explained by this different kind of brain. And that's, of course, as we talked to with Peter, that's all it is. But But for years and years, I diagnosed at first with social anxiety because I really don't like making eye contact, and I get really nervous around large groups of people. But it turns out I get really nervous about large groups often because it's very loud. That's usually the reason.

0:03:59 Clip: It's more of a sensory issue.

0:03:59 Thomas: That's That's an interesting one. I wonder how much actual social anxiety would affect eye contact or if that's entirely misdiagnosis, you know?

0:04:08 Clip: Yeah, well, it's a sign of being on the spectrum, and there are a lot of people who are autistic who aren't social anxiety, but...

0:04:10 Thomas: Of course. Yeah. I was going to say the other way around. Like if people just have social anxiety like I wouldn't think eye contact would necessarily even be part of that so I'm saying like how much of that is is people just having misdiagnosed autistic people or something

0:04:25 Clip: Because a lot of this. I mean, the idea of audio HD, the concept of it didn't exist until 2013. That's how much this is developing, right?

0:04:31 Thomas: Right that's like kind of a joined thing together it was obviously we had individual things

0:04:35 Clip: It's like it's a special kind of mix. And course as you know in my practice I am doing 305 things at the same time and that's a classic a classic sort of sign of adhd because I do have adhd tendencies quite a few of them and adhd person still has all the sensory issues a lot of the issues with I mean I tend to take things still very literally though I've studied comedy for my entire life to try to to figure out how not to. Have the deep sense of justice that seems to come.

0:04:55 Thomas: The deal with taking things literally I don't know

0:04:58 Clip: What do you mean by that, Thomas? Made a of trying to understand people. I'm just genuinely interested in people, which is why I don't think I have social anxiety, because I just love talking to new people. I love the chance to do that here, especially. And we get to talk to a completely new person on the show. This is Haley Moss. Caught my attention because when I went looking to find advocates who were talking about law on the spectrum, I found Peter and I found her. And those are the only two people out there really that are making a stand of getting out and saying, I'm on the Spectrum and I practice law. We're going to talk about this in our conversation, I think. It is not something the profession really wants to talk About publicly. And I think that's exactly why we need to do it.

0:05:35 Thomas: Else can we know about Haley all

0:05:37 Clip: As I from the age of three that she was autistic. So she grew up with that knowledge and she worked it into her education. She had the support she needed and she went to law school, became a lawyer for a couple of years and is now an advocate and teacher, an author of I think five books now. To my attention just when I was looking through and found her advocacy. I really liked the way she's talking about these things and from her her generation versus my generation or Peter's generation. I just think it's a really valuable perspective. And it's grew up in a world where we're used to having accommodations, where it was not at all unusual to ask for the LSAT or for the bar to have special accommodations. It's something I'm just not used to. I'm interested to talk to her about how now. Just to kind of get to know her and get a sense of another person who's openly identifying as being on the spectrum, And I think, honestly, the more that we talk about it, and the more that we put it out there, and then more that we normalize the idea, because as Peter said, rate of autism amongst lawyers has to be maybe double of the usual 3%. That's certainly checked out in my experience, too. Should mention, of course, that the obvious variation on autism is that you are a lot autistic. It's right there. It's there waiting for you. So I'm trying to normalize that one. But Peter was talking about how in his area, he got together what they call the local autistic bar association. They call it the ABA, right? I am looking into trying to do that and organize people a little bit more for neurodiversity, not just for autism. But I think that we don't talk enough about how ADHD affects lawyering. There are a lot of exceptional lawyers who have ADHD but have trouble with deadlines and struggle with managing a lot things at the same time and all the things that come with the organizational issues that we all have with ADHD. To people that have social anxiety and that have other forms of neurodiversity that impact and often make them better in different ways, but also have drawbacks to the practice of law. So I'm excited that we're doing these interviews because I got to tell you, nobody else is talking. No other law shows and other, there are people talking in terms of, excuse on the spectrum itself. They're coming from the other side and they're saying, well, there's some people out there who are lawyers, but I haven't seen between lawyers and law professionals and law podcasts talking about the fact that we we exist and that it's to openly come out as this thing that we are. And I think that's really what's exciting to me of talking to Haley.

0:07:33 Thomas: Right lottists let's make it happen I'm excited. We'll take our first break and then we'll get on with Haley Moss.

0:07:36 Clip: You got it. Right.

0:07:45 Matt: Hayley Moss, you are the second autistic attorney that we've had on in just about a month. So I'm going to give you the same courtesy I gave the last guest and skip the small talk because who needs that? Should a hiring manager at a law firm consider hiring an autistic attorney?

0:07:59 Haley: Think it's not even just about the autism or neurodivergence as a whole when we have those conversations, but really what a different attorney brings to the table. That every person has unique qualifications, different strengths and weaknesses, and the way that I've always approached it is you might be having someone who has a different take on legal issues and strategy that can be immensely helpful. You might have someone who's very detail -oriented, very focused. We really need to focus on those strengths, especially when it comes to autistic and other neurodivergent people, because so often with hiring, there's this focus on the deficits that somebody might have, or we think immediately, oh, they might not want to litigate because they might want to be in front of people, or they might understand social nuance or what have you. We're so deficit -focused when it comes to disability as a whole, really, that we forget to focus on what somebody brings to the table, how they can be an asset to a firm or an organization, that we forget that this person might be really good at pattern recognition this person might be a really focused detailed researcher this person might bring so much to the firm that we are still essentially going to have a competitive advantage and this is worth our time our efforts and everything else that goes into that because of course professional development is not a one one -way street either, you know, 32.

0:09:22 Matt: Of course. I appreciate that. And that's very well said. Remind us, how old are you? Awesome. Okay. As I said, we're not doing small talk, but we should get some background.

0:09:29 Thomas: Was going to say, I mean, I still, I don't like small talk either, but I do want to, you know, know what's going on.

0:09:37 Haley: Yeah. I feel that's the hit the ground running, but I'm also like, I think I should get to know, we should get zu know each other just for like a quick second before we just were like, this is a deposition.

0:09:37 Matt: Know me, I just, I like to jump in.

0:09:45 Thomas: Come on, Matt, yeah, deposition.

0:09:48 Matt: That's funny. No, I actually, I don't know why I just love to just hit somebody with a serious question right up front. It's one of my favorite things to do in life. And it's a very autistic trait, I know. But, as I know, we've communicated by email, I have come to realize that I'm ADHD. So I'm really appreciating these opportunities to talk to people who are out there in the world uh being know in different professional roles but uh you're unique here in this conversation uh and out in the World as far as I can tell because this is something that you've known about yourself for a very long time and the last guest that we had with this perspective found out when he was 65 on his way into retirement but this is Something um well from what I understand you've done your whole life but you want to tell us a little about how you You've come to know this about yourself and how it worked into your life, your

0:10:31 Haley: So recognize that I am very fortunate that I was diagnosed with autism as a child, especially when we talk about those late diagnosis or later discovery every experiences and perspectives I was originally non -speaking I was a toddler who was famously kicked out of preschool so preschool dropout is a part of my educational experiences and resonant I know I always get a kick out of it I did not color inside the lines

0:10:51 Matt: CV. And

0:10:56 Thomas: Changes grease or whatever. Is that the musical that Beauty School Dropout's in?

0:11:01 Haley: Yes I love musicals so you're speaking my language too but I famously did not Color Inside the Lines and I thought that drinking from a cup was where you model after your dog and try to lick it out of the cup not so much you know take it to your face so needless to say preschool was not very happy with me and I was diagnosed that was the late 90s very different time very different experience and perspectives on awareness and what was available and what folks knew about autism so my family was pretty much much having to discover resources and really rely on our university systems and community. So we lived in Florida and I've been in Florida most of my life. What would happen is the University of Miami really was the ones who took the reins, really pointed us in the right direction, got me resources. And with lots of speech and occupational therapy, I did start talking. I was out of special education services by kindergarten and first grade, which was quite the accomplishment at least when I think about it but I think that we need services for everybody and there's so much I probably could have benefited from but I was in private school I also think when we talk about early diagnosed people that there is a note that I like to make because I recognize the fact I was non -speaking is probably the main reason I even got a diagnosis as a child I know a lot of girls and women in particular do not get diagnosed until later later on, there's a lot of gender disparities, where I grew up made a difference. The fact that my parents were very attuned to what was going on and that my mom was very hands -on with me, all those things make a huge difference.

0:12:39 Matt: Dropping out of preschool, it sounds like you did okay.

0:12:42 Thomas: Didn't fall in with the wrong kind of preschoolers, the the other dropouts that were doing drugs and stealing cars yeah sometimes

0:12:44 Matt: Stayed off the streets. That's good.

0:12:48 Haley: The ones that went to special education preschool after that,

0:12:51 Matt: Yeah. So what kind of interventions or kind of programs were available to you? Because, you know, again, this is fascinating to me as somebody. I'm 46, and I grew up in the Northwest. And I don't know in Florida what kind OF options there would have been if I were growing up at, that you at same age, but they really, it was not something that was being looked for as far as I know. And I'd certainly looking back, I feel like most of the people that I was close with almost certainly were on the spectrum or neurodiverse to some degree. Kind of, so I can get a sense, you Know, what's, what'S out there right now, you're at. You said that it was helpful with the speech therapy and everything, but what other kinds of programs are available?

0:13:23 Haley: Of what was available when I was growing up was speech, occupational therapy, and something else that we did at home was known as DIR floor time, which is essentially when you are using play to interact with children and enter their world and teach them skills that was really the big thing and I know right now there's a lot of talk about like applied behavioral analysis but that wasn't something that was as big in that conversation when I was growing up I feel like it's a whole minefield to even have that conversation yes

0:13:48 Matt: That's, that'S, that' s pretty controversial as I understand it, the behavioral work, right? About that? Or have you experienced it yourself?

0:13:55 Haley: Pretty much I have not received those services but I was a psychology undergrad and once upon a time I really thought lot like, okay, behavioral services and the way that we do behaviorism essentially is just part of human existence. I mean, look at a lot of us, we are motivated by external rewards to do tasks and learn tasks. Many of us are in jobs because we want to get paid money. So if you look at behaviorism from that perspective, it makes a lot sense. But thinking about ABA as an industry, I feel a little bit different time and time again, because obviously it's gotten very big. There's been a lot of private investors the way that things have kind of gone I think there needs to be more oversight and something that I've always kind of raised the alarm on personally is once upon a time I used to teach psychology undergraduate students and a lot of them were registered behavior technicians which essentially are people who work in ABA clinics and whatnot underneath a board certified behavior analyst and to become an And RBT does not require an awful lot of training or hours or anything that a lot of my college kids were registered to do it. And I was thinking, I think if I were a family and the BCBA or other pros weren't the ones who were spending that much time with my child, I might be a little bit concerned, but I'm not a parent. I don't really have those answers. I think the other thing that has really come into the mainstream autism services conversation conversation. In the last maybe decade or past that even, that was not part of the conversation when I was growing up was insurance coverage. Also recognize families don't feel that they have as many options because of what insurance will or will not cover. When I was growing up, nothing was covered.

0:15:44 Matt: I mean, it's my impression, and again, I'm just learning quite a lot about this as an adult who's sort of figuring things out now. So it's part of why I wanted to talk to you and to Peter O 'Neill, our last guest along these lines, but also because I think it's just so important to talk about this stuff in public, especially for lawyers right now. You know, my understanding, and it's not really what we're here to talk About, I'm sort of curious, but my understanding about the behavioral work is that it's more about sort of getting kids on the spectrum to conform to norms to that right

0:16:10 Haley: Think you're wrong necessarily, but I do think from anytime I've talked to people that work in the field that we need to try to understand why why behavior is happening rather than immediately focus on changing behavior. A lot of nuance that gets lost in developmental therapies and interventions. And I think that's where there is common ground and also a lot of different opinions. So every time I get to talk to different people who are professionals, the goals are the same. We all want autistic kids to be more independent and to gain life skills, whatever that means. I know life skills mean different things, whether it's being able to pack your lunch or communicate or advocate for yourself or speak or whatever it may be, that every single one has those same goals. It's just how do we get there seems to be the differentiating factor.

0:16:22 Matt: Yeah for sure sure and so when did you know you you might want to go to law school when did he start thinking about that sure

0:17:02 Haley: Didn't start thinking about law school until college, honestly, because I thought that I wanted to be a doctor. I thought being a psychiatrist on the spectrum would be literally the coolest thing in the world. And I took chemistry my first year of college and lasted six weeks before realizing this is so hard. I am not good at sciences. I am not a science autistic because I know there's the science and autism stereotype, but it did not check out for me. And I went back to the drawing board thinking, what do I want to do with my life? And my best friend at school at the time saw me basically having this re -evaluate my life perspective and was like, well, what do you actually enjoy doing? And I remember sitting in the dorms talking to him and I went, I like to write, I like to talk, and I want to help people and with a completely straight face, he looks at me and goes that's what lawyers do

0:17:26 Matt: Ideally that's the best of us and that's actually it's so funny to say that though because those are the exactly the three things that I had in mind when I went to law school as well was like I can figure the rest out later I just know that if I can write and I can sort of be around and get to know people and help them, then that's enough for me. That's a job. I appreciate that. That makes a lot of sense. But did you feel your limitations at that point? Have any doubts or did anybody tell you maybe you shouldn't do this?

0:18:20 Haley: Necessarily, I felt kind of like I was Elle Woods when I went to law school, I'm not going to lie to you I did not have any political science background, I didn't have any legal background ,I did not have that, I feel a lot like that moment at orientation in the Legally Blonde movie when they all go around and they share all their different life experiences that got them to that point and how accomplished they all were. And mine accomplishments and my resume was just very off the beaten path compared to everybody else in the circle. And also I was newly 21. So I had a very different experience by virtue of being young. And when we think about the different obstacles and differences I faced in law school, a lot of it was the fact that I did not advocate for myself as well as I probably could or should have. But that's also why being 21 was so important in this conversation I realized there are so many skills and speaking up for yourself and wisdom and development that you simply don't have when you are 21 expected to advocate like a lawyer while you're supposed to learn how to be a lawyer and remember trying to go through the accommodations process and was so overwhelmed I was asked to provide additional testing and paperwork to confirm things that had been known my entire life and nothing had changed In the three years I was an undergrad, and it was still expected that I provided essentially that nothing had changed in those three years that I didn't have extra documentation and being 21 stressed and just wanting to go to school, I didn'T end up pursuing accommodations, and I've also had doubt, oddly enough, not from my peers, but from members of the faculty. Faculty, one of my favorite stories to tell is I was on journal. I know I was a nerd. I like to write. You're on journal, at least where I went to law school, you had to get a faculty advisor or sponsor for your student note or article. I was writing about testing accommodations for students with disabilities under the ADA. I thought that was really important. The person who I was recommended to talk to on the faculty, I arranged a meeting. I had never met this person before. And what ended up happening is we're having this discussion about why I'm interested in this topic. Share, I really wanted to talk about testing accommodations, especially in light of this lawsuit and settlement that happened, because it impacted my journey going to law school. It happened at that time. And as a student with a disability, it's relevant to me and face just completely changed and looks at me and goes well congratulations on being admitted to law school at this point I am halfway to graduation she

0:20:56 Haley: Did not advise my paper as I'm sure you can imagine

0:20:59 Matt: I guess it kind of gets to some of the things I want to talk about here because the law, as you know, it can be a very conservative profession. It can be be a very rigid profession. Can be very set in its ways. And a lot of what you've been doing and the reason I wanted to talk to you is because you've out there advocating for attorneys and professionals and for a broader understanding of hiring practices and for kind of acceptance and tolerance in these workplaces, these specific places that we operate. And, you're telling me resonates a lot about sort being hesitant about asking for accommodations or being has it about identifying yourself and it's a theme from what I can tell in your work of helping people understand their rights and advocating for themselves and the ada itself you know puts the burden on the people on the person right not on the system to advocate for themselves um you thought about how this could all be done better with accommodations and

0:21:49 Haley: And I think it's because the rule of the law and how accommodations actually work are not always the same that while that burden does fall on people with disabilities under the letter of the law, it makes sense because you have to be a qualified individual with a disability in order to receive reasonable accommodations. And you're on the other side, how do we even know if you are qualified, right? You have to tell us. That makes sense. But it doesn't account for the fact that disclosure can be very thorny, very personal, very vulnerable, and have a lot of other kind of potential repercussions. A lot of people with disabilities and neurodivergent people, there's a lot of interesting data coming out now about neurodiversity at work. And the data is showing a lot of neurod divergent people are afraid to disclose because they're afraid of having negative career impacts. I'm sure that's only more magnified here in the legal field. The way that accommodations work is that there are different guidance and things like that under the law and case law will show who has to prove what, what needs to be done. But in reality, it's more about engaging with an interactive process between two parties. It's the person advocating for themselves, along with an HR leader or manager coming up with solutions together. That's how accommodations work best. And when we forget that it's an interactive proces, it falls apart. Lot of the other issues that really happen is people with disabilities tend to focus so much on a specific accommodation. Foundation and when that's not met they freak out and they absolutely fall apart even if the alternative being provided is reasonable so thing that I like to say is I am a terrible note taker you put me in a meeting I'm probably not going to take notes because I cannot listen to you and write at the same time and be expected to take everything in if I write it all down I don't listen that well and if I listen I have the thing where I will pay attention be really engaged and And then I will not remember what happened a couple hours later. So I feel like I'm in between a rock and a hard place when it comes to note taking. I was also terrible at note taking in school. So whenever I tell people in my professional life that I am a terrible note taker, there are different ways we can accommodate that based on my executive functioning skills, that somebody else can take notes and circulate them. There's lots of AI note takers now. And there's also different things like having a recording of a meeting if it's virtual, for instance. And even though I realize I do best when another human being takes notes and circulates them, if I get offered an AI transcript or a recording, that's not unreasonable. It just isn't what I prefer.

0:24:29 Matt: It is now much easier than it ever was so certainly that is helpful um

0:24:34 Haley: Falls apart when people are like, no note taking for you, it's unreasonable because now it's that easy to implement.

0:24:39 Matt: Sure. Then know, it can be free too. Other sorts things have you come to learn about sort style in the workplace or what you need particularly?

0:24:45 Haley: Probably the thing that I've learned most is accommodations are not necessarily this bad, scary thing. I think there's a lot of stigma around accommodations. I certainly felt that when I was in school, and I realized that accommodations, make it so you can actually succeed. And I Was teaching, I would have a lot of my students asking for the same accommodations over and over, even if they didn't have the documentation that the university wanted. And what I began to realize then is this is a policy failure, more so than every student in my class has X, Y, or Z diagnosis. That, okay, if I just implement this system from the get -go, I will not have these requests showing up every two seconds, and it will probably make my classroom more accessible for everybody. So once I've learned that accommodations really level the playing field and accommodations done well, ideally creates very little need for accommodations, that really changed my way of thinking completely because so many things that I advocate for as accommodation solutions now are things that actually benefit everybody. Everybody so I think about even if you get an agenda for a meeting before it happens or even we were having this conversation and somebody sent some pre -notes or questions ahead of time that everybody felt like they knew exactly what was going to happen during our time together all those little things can make things better for everyone that you know exactly what the script is I know kind of okay this is the direction this conversation is going to go that everybody has something that benefits them and that's really what accommodation done well is is really kind of decreasing the need for accommodation at all even though accommodations will always probably be needed because we don't live in fantasy land and also every single individual has different needs even if they have the same identity neurotype or diagnosis but

0:26:37 Matt: Accommodations sound like they might be burdensome, but honestly my biggest one is I just need to take my shoes off. Just let me take my shoes off and, you Know, of course I have my own office and I have the privilege of being able to keep my shoes on if I want to. Obviously I'm going to wear them in common areas usually, um know I think that's something that it shouldn't be that hard to ask for but I certainly I've talked to other people in professional settings that feel very trepidatious about asking can I just take my shoes off just around my area right um way of thinking I think is is really helpful um

0:27:02 Haley: That makes so much sense so when When I was in office, I used to do the same thing because I had to wear heels and my feet were not built for them. So I used To have my like, barefoot days in when I was in my own office, but I'd always put shoes on if I want to go see other people or talk to them. Or I kept like, shoes, as many people who live in a big city do. So I always had like flip flops or sandals or flats or something else that I could just walk around in without feeling pain. And then I would put on my quote unquote, big girl shoes whenever I had to meet with partners people more senior than me or clients because then none the wiser and it kind of harm reduced essentially but I do think there is this balance of when is it that our standards of professionalism are kind of just arbitrary when is this a sanitary concern because not every floor deserves to have bare feet on them nor should it like I think you have to also know when to draw the line. And that's kind of a harder conversation to have.

0:28:01 Matt: Very true and but these are conversations that I think really have not been for the most part until very recently, and this is the work that you're doing, the advocacy that you are doing, I think, just even opening up the law generally in the profession to these kinds of conversations about just the basics and of redefining and reframing what neurodiversity looks like and really why I wanted to be sure to talk here. Have any particular issues during law school with all of that or how'd it go?

0:28:26 Haley: When I was in law school, I was so focused on surviving and proving that I deserve to be there. Say that especially because I did have a full public interest scholarship to be There. I felt that it was really important that I proved that I wasn't taking the seat of somebody who had more life experience or was somehow more deserving. I had that idea planted in my head about taking somebody else's seat at orientation. Actually, there was a brunch and I had a professor who asked me how old I was. I was 21. And I said so. And without knowing anything about my story, he said that I was, I should have waited. And I was taking the seat of somebody with more life experience.

0:29:04 Thomas: The normal age for law school

0:29:06 Matt: Yeah, I was 21. That's

0:29:07 Haley: A lot of people now take at least a year off or they go to grad school or they realize it's a second career or they take a gap year to go do Teach for America. That was really common in my scholarship cohort. Lots of Teach for American City year. I did something else for two years or I got a master's degree and then I went to law school. So at 21, I was the youngest person in my class, I'm pretty sure, or at least in my small group of people. I think there was maybe one other person who graduated undergrad early like me, but we were few and far between. Queen.

0:29:38 Matt: I guess I was just getting into 22, but close enough. Yeah. That'S interesting. Most just looking back at my class and it feels like there was kind of a divide, but it was not even half and half between older and younger.

0:29:47 Haley: I was already a year younger than everybody just because I finished undergrad early. So I had that going for me.

0:29:51 Matt: ThatS why. Okay. Sure.

0:29:52 Haley: I already had that in my favor. I couldn't wait to get out of school and I was good at school. So, ready to start my next adventure. And I looked at it at 21 thinking if law school is a bust, at least I'll only be 24 and I still have my entire life to figure out what I actually would like to do.

0:30:07 Matt: Of course, you did go on to graduate, and you became, and sort of the headline here is that you're the first openly autistic woman, I believe, in Florida to pass the bar. Is that right? I'm just not the first autistic woman to pass the bar, but

0:30:17 Thomas: Wow incredible of

0:30:19 Haley: A lot of us just don't have those conversations. Cause I certainly am not the first autistic person ever to do this thing.

0:30:23 Matt: Certainly, yeah.

0:30:24 Haley: I mean, we all know that we're having this conversation.

0:30:26 Matt: Openly part.

0:30:23 Thomas: Course yeah yeah I mean like thomas jefferson was the first yeah I'm sure I'm surer somebody's one of one of of those people I imagine

0:30:33 Matt: Yeah was on the spectrum, for sure. But

0:30:34 Thomas: Of course that dude was it was was adhd for sure a hundred percent

0:30:35 Haley: A hundred percent.

0:30:40 Matt: All over the place. It's true.

0:30:41 Thomas: Lots of different areas of knowledge knows everything about everything I I see him I see them I get it

0:30:47 Haley: Can see it. I love the idea of trying to figure out who is and who isn't neurodivergent. I'm, I just sit there. I've, I'm not an armchair psychologist. I have no business diagnosing anybody, but it is fun to speculate on people from the past.

0:30:58 Matt: Yeah, it's more fun with dead people.

0:30:59 Haley: Yeah, I try try not to do it with people who are living.

0:31:02 Matt: Sure. But Isaac Newton, come on. I mean, that's not even close.

0:31:05 Haley: My gosh. Yes. That, yes. So there was a book when I was a kid or at least like I was, I must've been a teenager, at least somewhere in this childhood realm about like my book of autism heroes. And it was put together by an illustrator and it put together all of these different historical and famous people that were supposedly or might've been autistic. And I remember an entire beautiful illustrated photo picture, everything about Isaac Newton in there.

0:31:32 Matt: Doubt. I think that the distinguishing factor, of course, is that you were openly autistic. You were talking about it. And that is something that that's why I wanted to talk to you, because this is something I'm trying to figure out for myself that I know that a lot of people of my age and around my age are trying to figure out because there is this whole generation of people that had some sort of idea that maybe, you know, but that we never were diagnosed or never really did anything about it. Very interested in sort of the difference and sort of I really want to talk after talking to Peter O 'Neill, who, of course, as I said, was 65 when he learned this. And you were a child you know an actual child when this came to your attention when it was known and you went through your life and began your career knowing how to accommodate for yourself and how to advocate for yourself or learning at least what you're talking about and know I'm interested in this generation and sort the law can can better accommodate us and better sort of change with and for us but also be changed by us because might just be my experience in sort of the generation of lawyers that I came up in, but it does feel very rigid. It does feel like differences are not encouraged or celebrated, at least where I am and sort of the region I'm in. This story before when I was talking to Peter in the interview, but I had a lot of trouble interviewing, and I didn't know why. I just knew that it was passed back along to me, at last by one hiring partner, that I was too quirky, which is a word I've always really hated quirky

0:32:55 Thomas: Know what that means that's

0:32:56 Matt: A terrible word but it's something that autistic people are often described as and know you think about tech even medicine I think there's a lot more room for quirkiness and for divergence and law especially when there's money on the line people want to see like norms they want to see like a sort of straight up -and -down person that you know is gonna look them them the eye and tell them what the deal is and go out to lunch with them and have a drink with them and whatever um that's not all of us and

0:33:18 Haley: A lot of us kind of enforce these ideas of what professionalism and what lawyers are supposed to be. I think we are the problem as much as we are the solution. And a lot of these rules are simply unwritten. I know with interviewing, I feel like for me, I got very lucky that I didn't have to do it a lot. But I purposely opted out of that whole on -campus interview process because I knew it was a setup for me to fail. Isn't even a regular interview. You go to some fancy hotel in downtown and talk to people in rooms and you're supposed to go out to dinner and then they're judging you based on how you act at dinner and what you're saying and not my ability to read, write, analyze, or the fact that you can mentor me and I can actually grow. Row. I am very confused and I'm sure I could have had different opportunities. And the way that I did get my first job out of law school, I got very lucky. I ran into one of the managing partners of my firm in the elevator of my apartment building because he was moonlighting as a realtor at night. And I let the guy into the building after I was coming home from the gym. Startled me as I got into the elevator because I just didn't remember this guy. I didn't know him. I was, of course kind of like I don't let people into the building that's just who I am and thanks me for letting him in he didn't mean to startle me and he's like do you like living here and I was just like yeah it's really convenient to the law school and then we just start talking and he gives me his business card I send him an email and before I know it I have an interview the next week I get to the interview the other managing partner has an autistic kid and lo and behold I walk out with a job offer for the summer and then I ended up working there post -grad I

0:34:50 Matt: Great yeah

0:34:50 Thomas: So lucky but it also feels like scary that you had to get that lucky maybe you know like what would have happened without that good luck you oh of course not but like worrying about you know the next you or whatever

0:34:57 Haley: Have no regret oh and I thought it was great because I was like okay I'm gonna get private practice experience this summer in an area I don't really know a lot about this is going to be so interesting and if all goes well I'm not going to have to be so concerned about interviewing and what comes next I think for me it took a lot of pressure off knowing I was in a safe space and lot the champions I've had throughout my career even back back in law school, had been parents of other neurodivergent or disabled kids. I very much remember the big prestigious thing to do in law school was everybody wanted a judicial internship. Law school had a breakfast with the bench event for students. And all the judges would come to this breakfast at like 730 in the morning. And I'm not a morning person by nature, but I forced myself to go. And I think it was the very first time I put on a suit suit because I had never worn a suit in my life. Like I didn't know what I was in for, but I thought that's when you wear a suit. And I remember wearing this suit, feeling like I was playing grownup.

0:36:03 Haley: Of these students are like sucking up to the judges big time. And I barely say two words because I don't even have that itch in my brain to try to, you know, puff myself up and do that to try To hopefully get one of them to hire me for the summer or something. Remember walking out of that event, coming home and crying, like, I'm not cut out for this. I'm Not a shark. I'M not a bully. IM not that extroverted and loud and trying to be the center of attention. I 'M just not made for this and did end up working for a judge the next fall and the judge that I worked for had a son with down syndrome and we met through some other, I think, community event. And we just started talking about disability and it was just a natural fit. So I feel like the biggest champions I have had, had been people with disabilities and their families. Think there's just kind of this understanding and what happened with people like the judge I worked for and the managing partner that I worked for is they wanted to pass it forward for the next generation or make things better for people like their children, even if it was a selfish mission, so to speak, it benefited the greater or good.

0:37:10 Thomas: Just shows to show that more more visibility I really think is better for everybody you so much easier as know having kids um are neurodivergent in different ways I can only imagine what it used to be like versus what it is now because it's it's really much better at least where I depends where you are of course but just like a shared understanding is just such a relief you know it's so much better than I imagine it must have been 20 30 years ago or whatever oh

0:37:13 Matt: Especially when the law um

0:37:15 Haley: 100%. Yeah,

0:37:38 Matt: Know I've said before that I hope that no future generation has to go through you know and again I wasn't tortured necessarily but I didn't really understand what was going on and my family didn't either. Like I just didn't know why I was the way I was and why I couldn't change. So meaningful to me to see people out there just openly talking about this because it's still something I'm grappling with personally. And written an entire book about how to talk about your story and how to you talk about being on the spectrum. And if you can share a little bit sort of the synopsis of approached this.

0:38:06 Haley: For me, and what I really tried to set out is that disclosure is such a situational event in how you talk about your experience as an autistic person is so individual, so situational, and can be really anxiety inducing, that looked at it as how do I approach this of how do we do this? When do we doing this? How do we advocate for ourselves in ways that make sense? Because the way that I'm going to advocate for myself at work would have have been very different than when I was going on first dates. It would have been very different for how I talk to my friends when I just have to say, I am so overwhelmed. I am not going out with you tonight, that how we have those conversations is so different. And I do think there's different conversations as well. So I, mentioned this, and I know you know this, I'm not late diagnosed. But I do Think, how do you even have those conversations with your family when you have that big discovery, and you don't want them to feel ashamed that they might not have discovered that before or that they're doubting you and how do you like have that very delicate of oh by the way I figured this out and that's why I must have been weird strange did this thing and now my whole life makes sense because that's really the big differentiator between the early diagnosed and late diagnosed camps is lot of late diagnosed people really think that if you were diagnosed as a kid that you just somehow had it easier all you really had was a why. You had some kind of understanding of this is why I am weird, different, receiving more attention from the teachers. Other kids don't understand me. My interests are different, what have you. You have a name for it. It doesn't mean they are treating you better. It doesn'T mean that you had it easier. It just means you had a why, and I think that's a really big point to make in even that disclosure conversation is it helps when you have that why. So I know for you now that you have that why you feel a lot different as well and

0:39:53 Matt: That's a relief, it is.

0:39:54 Haley: I know you're trying to have that discovery and I think that's really powerful is that a lot of what a diagnosis does is give an explanation and a why more so than anything else I

0:40:09 Matt: An advocate, how did that happen? And out there and deciding this is something that you wanted to be talking about?

0:40:14 Haley: Fell into advocacy by accident I had no intention of ever making this part of my career or my life story I was asked to speak on a panel when I was 13 and the only reason I agreed to do it other than that I believe in giving back is that it was in Orlando and I wanted a basically free trip to Disney World that was to make me go talk about my story and I did not know that the panel I was on I would actually make a difference I was the only girl and by far the youngest one representative from a publisher was in the audience and asked if I would consider writing about my story as a fresh finisher of the eighth grade and before I knew it I was advocating and writing and chose not to write under a fake name because I did not have the you foresight to imagine where this could have led me and also thought you know what if I can make a difference for somebody else it's all good I can live with that and only snowballed from there I kept writing I ended up going to law school you mentioned that I became florida's first openly been the autistic attorney. And then my story gained legs of its own yet again. That was kind of its second life. My first life was being the autistic teen artist and author. And then when I became an attorney, I got kind of a second wind of storytelling and then was like, you know what? I can make a bigger difference. I recognize that having a law degree is such a huge privilege that people actually listen to you. And I really wanted to make things better for the next generation that you said that you didn't want other people to go through the same thing you did, that you weren't necessarily tortured, but you didn't want it to be the same. And that's kind of how I feel too, is that there's so much misinformation, disinformation, not really understanding and not really knowing what to do, that hopefully making that easier and especially for adults on the spectrum and neurodivergent people to me is more important. There's a ton of services and community things out there now for families. There's a lot of research that's particularly focused on children, but not nearly enough for adults in the working world. So I wanted to make sure that we adults who spend most of our time being over the age of 18, if you go, you know, really theoretical about life, we're more often adults than we are children, assuming you're alive for a long time. And being said, we need more supports for adults, we need to be able to have these massive disparities in employment disappear. We need to rectify so many different things. And I did realize, like you were saying, that legal is a lot. And legal is behind a lot too, that we have a lot of stigma around mental health, neurodivergence, disability, what you should be doing. And the fact that we are a very conservative profession only complicates those norms very much so. I thought all the rules make no sense because a lot of them are unwritten.

0:40:33 Matt: Sure. Fair enough. Quite a lot. It's very much like that. Very, very high context. I know that you weren't when you started out, but we're now operating in an environment in which the Secretary of Health and Human Services has come out and told the world that autistic kids are never going to be able to get jobs or play baseball or whatever the stuff he said. I just think it's more important than ever. I mean, how does that feel now in this environment when we're being talked about that way? I mean that's just, it seems so so regressive good you got me beat so all

0:43:22 Haley: I did learn how to play baseball for the very first time about a year ago. So years ago for real how to play baseball because I spoke at a school event and one of the other speakers was a pitcher who was missing fingers or a hand, I can't remember off the top of my head. And he was pitching to me and I got to learn how to actually play baseball, but I learned how to play baseball before that because I learned how to baseball on the PlayStation about a year and a half ago. So I am a new baseball fan who learned a lot about baseball, baseball, but that being said, I digress. I have to joke about all these things because it makes it less terrible and painful, but it is really a shame what's going on with our current secretary of health and human services. Just to put it lightly, I try not to speak too much about these things just because I try my best to come from that informed perspective as much as I can, but I am very frustrated with the fact that anytime it feels like we're taking a step forward, we're taken a step back that the science on the vaccines cause autism has been disproven time and time again. That it's also very odd what is going on with Secretary Kennedy in particular, given his family's involvement in the intellectual and developmental disability communities for so many years, that seeing best buddies in Special Olympics have to make statements when he says something a little bit off pocket.

0:44:40 Thomas: Don't know about this can you explain this was

0:44:42 Haley: So basically, you are familiar with Best Buddies and Special Olympics, they are run by and founded by other members of the Kennedy -Schreiber family. I believe, is now run by Anthony Kennedy -Schreiber, and I believe Eunice Kennedy -Shreiber was Special Olympics. Olympics. So the whole family and the Kennedys are very involved in the IDD community because of Rosemary Kennedy, who of the siblings and she ended up having intellectual and developmental disabilities and had a lobotomy.

0:45:12 Thomas: He ever involved with these organizations or was it just his family I'm

0:45:16 Haley: Don't know for sure, but I know no way he didn't know what the rest of the family was doing with Best Buddies Special Olympics and similar causes. The disability community, because we all are very familiar with the work that Best Buddies and Special Olympics do, we just sat there very confused. At very least, he is aware of his family's history with autism and the disability and intellectual disability and developmental disability communities. And at the very worst, he's openly betraying all that they have advocated for. Because no matter how you feel about those those programs, you know, that they have done good in the world, that they have brought people into the folds of inclusion. They've educated people, best buddies in special Olympics. I remember we're very involved in the fight to end using the R word that was the big campaign they were doing when I was younger. And I know unified sports is really big, that there's a lot of really great work being done. I know there's work around housing and jobs and other policy now, but it's just really stark to see that contrast. That

0:46:18 Thomas: Pretty incredible too that one of the main causes of the assholes supporting this regime is bringing back the r word that's pretty cool I love that yeah

0:46:26 Matt: Of speech um

0:46:27 Haley: Has been wild for me to see, especially because I remember when President Obama signed Rosa's Law, basically taking the R word out of federal legislation that was such a watershed moment in this community too, of like, oh my gosh, we're actually going to replace that word with intellectual disability in federal statutes. And that was fantastic. Fantastic.

0:46:28 Thomas: It's unreal yeah

0:46:47 Matt: You're not practicing right now have you considered going back to practice or I mean obviously you don't have to but

0:46:52 Haley: Flirt with the idea regularly. I think I would probably want to be in employment law or I'd want to do something just completely different. That's why when I was in practice, I very much enjoyed the fact that I was on healthcare litigation and international law. I loved being kind of away from the passion of disability rights. I worked in disability rights my first summer of law school and felt too close to the fire that I would be so empathy overloaded every day because I'd be thinking about the clients that they weren't much different from me that they were just one decision or situation removed from mine and that I could have easily been on the other side and having worked with lawyers both as a client before and as an attorney I realized I don't want to be contributing to another individual's stress or also really working with them sometimes at the height of what could be the worst moments of their lives I think that's something we often forget is that we do get good people at their worst. A really hard thing. So that's why I loved doing health care. I represented hospitals and hospitals as entities. I didn't have that same attachment to a human being. So for me I realize if I do go back I want to do something that is a little bit less human just for my own mental health and sanity but I do think employment is something that I feel very passionate about given I talk a lot about the Americans with Disabilities Act and how to get accommodations and how that works I think that would be something I would be interested in and good at but I also recognize that I'm happy running my own business and getting to educate lawyers and work with lawyers without practicing at the same time. And I have finally hit that point in my career that I don't believe that I failed as a litigator because I left. It's

0:46:53 Matt: Would you be doing if you what have you thought about no of course not no

0:48:37 Haley: A real feeling though, is that you're like, oh my gosh, I suck because I Left and I left after a year and I really thought that I Failed.

0:48:44 Matt: Uh turns out you're very young and you still have a lot of green and uh bar license so it's up to you but uh And I'm just curious, because I hear what you're saying. I actually wish that I had known. Well, I wish I'd known a lot more about myself earlier, but I've been doing immigration law and deportation defense for two decades now. And a lot of what you'RE saying resonates there. It does hit very personally, working with very human situations. And I do take it very personally. And I've learned the hard way in a very long period of time how not to, or at least how to do it less. But if I'd know upfront about why this hits in the way it does for me, I think it would have helped me a lot. And know other immigration lawyers who feel that way too yeah appreciate that and that's

0:49:20 Haley: Too. You're doing very important work at this time and I'm grateful for all you do. Every time I talk with immigration lawyers, I'm like, you guys are heroes in these times.

0:49:33 Matt: It does appeal to my ADHD nature because I get to do 3 ,000 things at once but it also there's a lot of other drawbacks to you and one interesting sort of differentiation when I was talking to Peter O 'Neill because he's his neurodiversity is much more for focused on one project at a time and he found a field in which he was able to do that I thought that was amazing for him And as much as that does kind of sound like a fantasy, I don't think I could leave having everything be on fire in 45 places at once. That's very much where I thrive, unfortunately, I live. And that's really, I think, so much of what you're talking about and what we are talking about here is just knowing yourself, understanding sort there is a framework that you're operating within and having both the employee and the employer, if you're working for someone understand that and that seems to be what your advocacy has been focused on and I think that's just so important right now uh do you also work with employers is sure

0:50:20 Haley: Yes, I love just getting to work with everybody. I I have the coolest job ever because I get to work with people from all walks of life. I will educate lawyers with CLE. I have been the one that they've brought in to consult on policy. I've also been the ones who get to speak to teachers and schools and universities and big corporations. I get talk about neurodiversity and geek out and hopefully make things better for everybody. I really do think I do something that actually is really cool. Think about that regularly too and I'm glad that you also talked about your practice because I think there's also this assumption with neurodivergence that there's only like one space that you fit in or one box that you've fit into and even when I was a litigator it was assumed I didn't want to be a litigator that I wanted to be contractual or transactional and that wasn't what I wanted I wanted it to be doing all the projects I wanted to be involved and I think that's really fascinating because there is this sort of of assumption like, oh, you don't want to be people facing. You're going to not be in front of clients. You are going to be a transactional lawyer doing contracts or agreements or negotiations or something else. And really there is something for everybody. And you do need that thing that kind of lights your brain up the way that you said that you need to have everything feel like it's on fire, that you're constantly busy. And I feel like I need to always have a project happening.

0:51:37 Haley: That now that I'm not practicing, I'm like, I need a project. I don't care what that that project is I need to have at least one background project at all times, whether it is writing another book, whether is getting my routine back on track. So last year's project was literally getting myself back in shape and starting to exercise more regularly and do all that good stuff. Like I always need a project and can take on many forms, but you need to feel like there's something to keep you going.

0:51:37 Matt: For sure and another thing that people might not think about is the fact that in the right circumstances that people people on the spectrum can be very good at being self -employed as well because you get to create your own environment. It's, it's been a lifesaver for me to to be able to choose the people I work with and to choose the environment and to literally control the environment that I'm working in. Something as simple as dimming the lights and turning my shoes off is just a game changer for, you know, just work. Biggest takeaway so far from my, I guess almost going on 20 years of solo -employed practice is you got to find the right people to be with and the right partners and the the right mentors and it sounds like you've had a some good success with that too but that is it's it's really it's hard for anybody to be solo but I think it's especially hard sometimes for neurodivergent people to handle every part of being a solo attorney because the skills that are required to manage a business are just so different from the skills required to handle clients and handle cases like those are three different buckets completely do you work with little small firms and solos or yeah

0:52:52 Haley: Did. And you also hit the nail right on the head about small business in particular and being self -employed is that there are not nearly enough resources out there for neurodivergent entrepreneurs in general. And I know it's weird as a small firm owner, perhaps labeling yourself as an entrepreneur, but you are. And

0:53:09 Thomas: Regular rockefeller over here making money on his uh immigration process practice it's

0:53:12 Haley: Vanderbilt.

0:53:13 Matt: Just swimming

0:53:14 Haley: I get zu do work mit Vanderbult and the Frist Center for Autism and Innovation. And one thing that we talk a lot about is supporting neurod divergent entrepreneurs. And that's something even I've been trying to branch out into doing a little bit more of when I think about how do I present and what can I present to the community is I do want to do more for our entrepreneurs. There's not nearly enough out there. If you are self -employed or you want to start a business, whether it's a solo law practice, or you are someone who has a cute little Etsy shop selling crafts, like there's just not enough out There to give you infrastructure. I know I took business organizations or business associations, whatever your law school called it. And that did not prepare me to go file paperwork to start an LLC. That did not tell me what I needed to do to open a business bank account and credit card. It didn't tell me how I make sure to hire CPAs and keep things legal and do everything correctly.

0:53:53 Matt: Not in the least. Yep.

0:54:05 Haley: And I also didn't know that there are different resources for disability -owned businesses, that you can have supplier diversity, that you can be a part of all of these different things. And there's some resources available available to you, but not nearly enough. And think about this because my other half briefly worked with small business development centers as well, is that there's nothing really out there that is disability or neurodiversity friendly or designed for our community, despite the fact we have a higher than average percentage of self -employed people and entrepreneurs slash small business owners than the general population. I think it's absolutely wild. And that is a whole other tangent I could be here all day long going off on. It's just not enough for neurodivergent entrepreneurs.

0:54:47 Matt: It makes total sense, right? If you're not great at interviews and you have a lot of ideas and a lot of energy and a lot of capacity that you'd start your own business. And yeah,

0:54:55 Haley: Is a very common story that you're telling is we got pushed out of traditional employment. We couldn't interview. We got fired. We felt that it wasn't a culture fit. Something happened that basically spurred me to start a business more so than I had this great idea and that's exactly what I'm going to do. And I think that's a story is tale as old as time, essentially.

0:55:12 Haley: My story was I was building my business kind of on the side while I was in practice and I had hit a crossroads of, oh my gosh, do I see where this takes me or do I stay? And I was like, you you know what? I'm young enough. I have run out of PTO for speaking engagements and I'm going to take a chance and see what happens. And I can come back in two years and it's now been six and a half and I had not come back.

0:55:33 Matt: Yeah, I often say that I'd like to live in a world where I put myself out of a job and nobody needs a deportation defense attorney anymore. I think maybe you're in the same position where maybe it'd be good to live in a world where we don't need, it's

0:55:42 Thomas: A bit more of a long shot for you but yeah except

0:55:44 Matt: For me, but for

0:55:44 Haley: It's a long shot for all of us, but

0:55:45 Matt: All of us. But same for you, though. I mean, obviously, I'm sure that you'd prefer to live In a world in which we don t need disability advocates, we don T need people explaining us to the world.

0:55:56 Haley: A hundred percent. Much every major disability rights or disability inclusion initiative or organization has the exact same ethos about that is we don't want to be here, but we have to be be here. I went to a best buddies conference back in 2019. And I remember some leader saying, we don't want to be here, we want to Be put out of a job, we don'T want to have to exist. But here we are, that we all want to BE out of A job, because the world is accessible and inclusive and understanding and treats people as humanely as possible with dignity and respect. Like, that's what we all WANT. And we're still not there.

0:56:06 Matt: Here we are. Yeah, for sure. Well, you re doing it. And I just was excited to sort of see what you've been doing in the world and that you've got your voice out there and that that you're speaking out because, you know, I got to tell you, I went looking after talking to Peter O 'Neill, I've been thinking about this a lot and there is no, I'm sure you're aware of this, but there's no national association for neurodivergent attorneys, let alone attorneys on the spectrum. There's not even regional groups that I could find of any kind. I believe, and you'd probably agree that there are probably way more of us in the law than in a lot of other places it seems naturally attracts sure

0:57:05 Haley: And some of the research back set up. So my favorite stat to cite is there was a mental health study back in 2018 on mental health in the profession. And they found that more lawyers had anxiety, depression, substance use. And also there was an statistic about how many of them had met the criteria for ADHD. It was about 12 .5%. And then the study never addressed the ADHD years again. But to your point, I don't believe there's anything for neurodivergent and autistic people, but there is the National professional disabled legal professionals association so there is stuff for attorneys with disabilities on that broader scale and also law students with disabilities and happy with that because I do think that we are part of a community that's bigger than us I think that's really important to kind of remember that it is about that coalition whether there's a spinoff that comes from that or something else that's also something that I welcome there is different stuff out there for attorneys on the spectrum and attorneys with disabilities but there's not not nearly enough.

0:58:01 Matt: With that but I also think that it's unfortunate that really when you go looking for people who are openly talking about autism in the life or people on the spectrum neurodiversity at all in the lot I'm not gonna say it's unfortunate you're one of the only people that comes up because you're a great advocate but there aren't that that many of you yeah

0:58:18 Haley: There's like three or four of us, I even know because I've been around here long enough. Like, I think there's only like three, or four, or five of my colleagues that I've had the same talks with that are also autistic or neurodivergent that are doing the thing. And every single one of us has a very different experience. And out of some of those colleagues, I might have been the only one who really spent time in private practice. Of my friends who is also autistic and does a lot of wonderful policy work and I admire him so much but it's just something that I keep in mind like he chose not to take the bar he knew that private practice and practice was not something he was interested in after law school but he is a dynamic person in policy and disability policy in particular that have to really go looking and I know there's another younger person I believe out of Minnesota who's doing a lot work as well in the space she shows up on my LinkedIn feed regularly but I don't remember if she's practicing or not or has practiced like there is so much and every single one of us kind of fits and slots into a different niche that guess the way that I'm thinking about this is that we think of advocacy as a community thing and not necessarily a competitive thing but

0:59:26 Haley: It's so easy to feel like that because I think law school does sort of ingratiate this like competitive nature into and you're like I'm not a competitive person I

0:59:32 Matt: You have to you have to win at being an advocate um

0:59:35 Haley: Am competitive about video games that's about it if If you play Mario Kart or a racing game with me, you bet I will be competitive and want to beat your ass. That's about it. Otherwise, I'm like, I think there's room for everybody.

0:59:37 Matt: I'm with you yeah

0:59:45 Thomas: Bowser and wario they're gonna eat my shells uh

0:59:50 Haley: Oh my gosh. Waiting for you to say that your go -to is actually doing Bowser or Wario when you play.

0:59:57 Thomas: That's been too long I my mario kart expertise is back in mario kart 64 I'm long long past it

1:00:04 Haley: 64 was such a great game though.

1:00:06 Thomas: Was and then I play the newfangled one with my kids I'm like this is this is all wrong this is not there's too many things uh

1:00:14 Haley: Last year and I'm like, this is so colorful. This might be a little overstimulating to play for too long at the same time but it is very very well done but I do love that the switch 2 has all the retro games on it still so you can play like Mario Kart 64 there's

1:00:27 Thomas: Speaking of disability uh having a colorblind son it's all it's really interesting looking at a totally different topic but looking never think about how color you know even works in video games and then all of a sudden when playing with my son there'll be something he can't see i'mlike oh shit well yeah you just can't do that if they they figured it out later but like like early games sometimes it's just like oh sorry you're screwed it's like I'm glad we've made progress there

1:00:52 Matt: There's settings now right you can change on some of these things

1:00:54 Thomas: Yeah but not not for the retro games we play you

1:00:55 Matt: That's cool sure sure well

1:00:54 Haley: A bunch of settings and think there's the whole other really interesting conversation about accessibility and gaming I know that's something that has gotten a lot of traction in that community in particular and because you have a lot of people who complain like oh they're just making the games easier like not really that's not what what accessibility is about. And I think the same with accommodations, when we have that conversation, like we're not trying to just make things easier. We're trying to just level the playing field so everybody can be successful or enjoy the game that they want to play. The same thing.

1:01:23 Matt: Seeing the option when when you're looking in the settings and saying oh yeah there is an accommodation for somebody that can't see color the way I see color right honestly that I remember the first time I saw that I was like that's okay that's interesting I hadn't thought about what it would be like to be that person, and that makes you even think about it. So I think that's even apart from the accommodation itself, which exists. And that's, I guess, why we're here and why we are talking, is just having these conversations, putting it out there, putting that information out there and also just normalizing the idea that there are a lot of people on the spectrum surrounding you, and many of them are practicing law.

1:01:37 Haley: Pretty much.

1:01:55 Matt: I guess that maybe is my final question here, is for people who are trepidatious about talking about it because they're either established in a profession or you know like you when they're when you're starting out I mean if I understand your situation correctly basically you would hit the news as Florida's first open autistic attorney basically about the same time your bar card came in right so like that was beginning of your career and don't think it's it's unfair at all in our current climate but just talking about the political situation here around autism to be concerned about identifying yourself that way what would you say to people that are concerned about self -disclosure yeah

1:02:26 Haley: Think recognizing that it is such a situational and individual decision is really important, regardless of the political climate, I would have had the same advice. Is your decision and your decision only you You can decide if you want to share that. You don't have to share it if you don't want to. Think a lot of people also wait because they want to feel comfortable with themselves. I think there is this very real fear and kind of bias that you have about yourself. Like, oh, maybe I don't feel like I'm deserving of an accommodation or maybe I'm taking accommodations away from somebody who needs it more than I do. I think that way about the Disney parks. And it took me a long time to unlearn that because I thought that I would be taking away some accommodation from some little kid, even though I struggled with waiting in the lines because it was sensory overload. And I would just sit there and get anxious and melt down when there was too much going on and screaming babies are like my version of sensory hell. We think about all these things, we have to recognize that disclosure is very individual and whether or not you share it, it doesn't make you less valid, less deserving of community or less deserving opportunity. I think that you have to decide why that might be something you want to to share. I recognize that I was sharing my entire career because I started when I was 13. I didn't know any different. I don't know if I would have made the same decision had I not been involved in advocacy for most of my life. But I do think that need to know if it feels right for you. And if it doesn't feel right for, you don't have to disclose. The only time that disclosure is really necessary is if you're pursuing accommodations. And in that case, just think about how you want that narrative to go is are you going to be very matter of fact do you want to just get the facts out and just get what you need and get out of there do you, want to have a broader conversation do you think that you want, to share this with enough people at work that you might inadvertently get cast into the role of being a spokesperson which I know happens to a lot of marginalized people in workplaces is that you are the one with a specific identity and then all of a sudden you're waving the flag of like hi this is who I am and you are somehow the go -to two -person on everything on that topic, that have to really consider what your goal is, what you want, and kind of be prepared for a little bit of everything.

1:04:34 Matt: Appreciate that you have disclosed and that you've been out doing there doing what you're doing we're just wrapping up here Haley Moss with your work in autism advocacy but any before we go anything you want to plug any causes I know you have about six books out there people should check out but anything else you want talk about go

1:04:48 Haley: Getting me excited for book number six that doesn't exist yet. Exist yet.

1:04:50 Thomas: Do like reading and writing yeah

1:04:51 Matt: I said about six bucks I think I'm nuts great

1:04:53 Thomas: Plus or minus one awesome

1:04:52 Haley: About six. I'm I am at five. So we're good. You can check out anything that you want to on my website at hayleymoss .com or you can just say hi to me on any social media that makes you feel comfortable, whether that's Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, or LinkedIn. I am very online. I think that is just part of being a young person for the most part, but I love getting to talk to people and we'll keep you posted if there's any other cool new projects on my horizon.

1:05:21 Matt: Thanks so much for talking to us

1:05:22 Thomas: Thanks so much for joining us

1:05:27 Clip: This has been Opening Arguments, produced by Thomas and Lydia Smith, with editing help from Peter Baird. The intro is by Thomas Smith. This outro is by Matt Cameron. Support the show at patreon .com slash law. Contact us through Patreon or openarguments at gmail .com. Make sure to follow our blue sky at OpenArgs. But most of all, please share the show. Thanks for listening.

1:05:59 Haley: If you play Mario Kart or a racing game with me, you bet I will be competitive and want to beat your ass.

1:06:05 Matt: It's more fun with dead people.

1:06:07 Thomas: Bowser and wario they're gonna eat my shells uh