WTW143: No, Woke 1 Was Not Crazy

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:03 Clip: What's so scary about the woke mob? How often you just don't see them coming. Anywhere you see diversity, equity, and inclusion, you see Marxism and you see woke principles being pushed. Wokeness is a virus more dangerous than any pandemic hands down. The woke monster is here and it's coming for everything.

0:00:34 Clip: Instead of go-go boots, the seductress green M&M will now wear sneakers.

0:00:42 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Where There's Woke. I'm Thomas. That over there is Lydia. How are you doing?

0:00:46 Lydia: Hello, I'm doing especially well today because I'm going to be passing the reins to you, dear sir.

0:00:50 Thomas: Are you? Are you though?

0:00:52 Lydia: I'm here. I'm gonna be contributing. But in terms of leadership, I think we're gonna be looking to you.

0:00:57 Thomas: Well, I need to offer an apology. The intro I did was cra - that was crazy. I've grown since then, five minutes ago. The things I said - it's not even five, it's 20 seconds ago. That intro I made was crazy, things were said. Yeah, intro one. Uh, now I'm gonna apologize for intro two.

0:01:02 Lydia: So crazy. Intro 1.0 was crazy.

0:01:17 Thomas: This part is intro two, that's also crazy, gotta apologize for that. Yeah we gotta talk about Woke, we just did woke 2 woke 2 .0 now we got to talk about woke 1 apparently because

0:01:17 Lydia: Yeah, we did. We did. Apparently everybody's on board that there are

0:01:29 Thomas: There's woke 1 and woke 2

0:01:29 Lydia: The versions, the versioning of woke that's happening. Because right after we came out with this James Lindsay episode and what he saw as the pillars for Woke 2.0, we had this interview with AOC discussing Woke 1. Well, God, I wish. Jeez. Currently on the market, AOC. Hit me up. I know. I just completely threw us off.

0:01:34 Thomas: Yeah we did oh yeah speaking of oh man I can't even now I now I can't focus for the rest of the episode imagine it was and that's real I didn't want to get my hopes up

0:02:01 Lydia: It's real. It's 100 % real, baby.

0:02:01 Thomas: Oh I I I am two two three

0:02:05 Lydia: Freezing her eggs and single.

0:02:05 Thomas: Major feelings three major feelings first feeling good I want her she's mine stay away second feeling I can't believe there is a soul out there there's a person out there who has fumbled AOC

0:02:19 Lydia: That's like Megan Thee Stallion when that happened I was like what okay

0:02:22 Thomas: I feel so bad for what I don't know what the hell you're talking about but I feel like I'm going to feel so good I feel bad for oh oh is that the yeah that's right yeah

0:02:27 Lydia: Whoa with Klay Thompson freaking fumbled

0:02:31 Thomas: that'S a little bit different because that'S that's an NBA, he'll be fine. That's an NBA player. One of the greats. I think he'll do okay. This guy whose name I've never known. Yeah. Some dude, some like, honestly, uncomfortably close to my demographic. Like I'm, I like, it gives me too much hope is what I'm saying. Like, I, I can't, I can'T live in a world with hope that exactly, exactly. I need to feel like I have no chance. You know I just don't because otherwise I'll just be daydreaming I'll be wondering what our life could be like you know I I'll freeze my eggs she can use my eggs if

0:02:42 Lydia: It's like another bartender like yeah yeah yeah mediocre white guy love you you yeah yeah freeze your eggs

0:03:12 Thomas: She wants I feel so bad that there's a person out there who's is not an NBA player ah

0:03:16 Lydia: Yeah yeah I was gonna say close to the Sidney Sweeney fumble but honestly he was like super rich so I think he's fine and Sidney Swinney's MAGA so I don't know I don't know who fumbled who in that situation I guess I'm not exactly sure yeah

0:03:20 Thomas: Yeah yeah I don't and and honestly yeah I can't yeah exactly yeah no there's no comparison this is and then and so I can t so if if you're listening I don't if anyone knows this you know just say hi anyway she's the

0:03:31 Lydia: AOC pinnacle call. We have an ornament on our Christmas tree of her face.

0:03:47 Thomas: Best god I love her so much

0:03:47 Lydia: So, you know, the love is real in this house for AOC.

0:03:51 Thomas: I got him we have somehow have to talk about other things but just so everyone knows we're both agreed on this and it's and it'S IT'S EITHER it's either of us or both whatever she needs yeah

0:04:00 Lydia: Whatever, whatever the parties are into, you know, it's all right.

0:04:05 Thomas: Get creative asc what anything whatever whatever you need oh man it is getting too creepy that's true we have we I who knows how much look intro three was crazy intro three

0:04:09 Lydia: Your wish is our command. Okay, this is getting creepy. We We have to move on.

0:04:22 Thomas: Got crazy and we talked a lot I don't know how much you heard but we talked a lot about someone I'm in love with who now I I don' t want to feel like she's available ah distracts me too much oh okay I'm just kidding all right here we go I'm not really kidding but it's fine we'll move on the interview she has a quote that made the rounds she was quoting someone else who said that woke one was crazy oh yeah I mean it I don't know how much that matters honestly like it well we're gonna just play the actual

0:04:43 Lydia: You wouldn't know that reading the reaction pieces from the right, by the way. But anyway.

0:04:54 Thomas: Interview so we all know what happened but it's hard I have 11 trillion things to say about this and there's there's just so much there's so much so we're going to see where we get to um and we may have to do a 17 parter but But it's hard because when the claim is, was woke one crazy or whatever, it's like, OK, let's just quickly cover all of what the woke movement was. Let's cover what happened, what was said to have happened, what didn't actually happen for every single defund the police, any other reform. So like it just splintered off into a million things. And also Francesca Hong.

0:05:00 Lydia: You don't say. Let's dig into this. Yeah. Bet. Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah.

0:05:35 Thomas: That's a really interesting thing that happened there as we're recording we now know that she lost by a you know a fraction of a of a percent in that primary race we can talk more about that but it's it's also it's interesting and I do think first and foremost I'm really interested and kind of a little bit worried because it has long been a thesis of the show because we we cover we cover things woke that all of this shit is made up most everything is made up doesn't mean that there's no such thing as crazy wokies there's certainly such thing as crazy every single thing like every any movement yeah

0:06:08 Lydia: There's always a fringe to something.

0:06:11 Thomas: Any movement has crazies that's just going to be how it is and now it's even worse because we live in a world where everybody's not just they're like well thought out statements but everybody's mental involuntary you know burps are like record for everybody you have 20 years almost you know not quite yeah It's getting close to 20 years to where all of that is available. And so if you are, say, somebody who is very interested in the status quo maintaining, whether you're financially interested or racistly interested or sexistly interested, any number of reasons you might be interested in maintaining the very unfair status quo, you have an abundance of things to choose from if you want to try to make anyone look crazy or any side look crazy. And, you know, we've covered how many stories are just made up about woke stuff. Now, there's a debate to be had about certain elements of the quote unquote woke movement in the 2020 to 2020. I don't know, three regions like there's there could be nuanced conversations to have among

0:06:28 Lydia: From a decade ago. Yeah. It's close. It's closing in on that yeah sure

0:07:19 Thomas: Wokies maybe. Maybe. But what kills me is how much history has been rewritten to the point where it's not just the right who's interested in saying, well, that woke thing was crazy and we defeated it. It's over. It's worse. Now it's mainstream. It'S a mainstream thought that woke one will just, I'll use it as a shorthand that woke.

0:07:40 Thomas: One was crazy. And so many things were said, and we better, better move on from that because it went too far. And also that's why Trump won. It was good. Like all of of that has gone down as the official, the victors write the history or whatever the hell that thing is. And it sucks because it's just not really true. It's a, it's a flattening of a lot of stuff together. It sort of like, if I were ever to write a book, I it's like, could be this because it'S just like, there's so much that goes into the asymmetry that I talk about constantly that bothers me. We are, and we're going to see it today. Like we are obsessively talking about the tweets of certain people who it's, it won't even be like the person. It'll be like, well, you are supported by this person who once said this, like that's the, that's what we evaluate on the left. Oh, well this person, who has no power and never will have any fucking power said a thing that will never happen ever.

0:08:37 Thomas: Yeah. Or you, or, or what's your stance on it? Like that's, that we waste our fucking time with in every interview and every single thing. That's the thing that matters meanwhile the republicans control fucking everything all branches of government are maga they think trump won an election he lost there's a million crazy things a minute that the people in charge of the entire country at every level think and or are forced to think by an insane old diarrhea diaper idiot the asymmetry of it just kills me it just just kills me. And there's so many layers to it, but all right, let's take our first break. I'm going to, I'm going to see if I can message ASC. If anyone knows.

0:08:27 Lydia: And you reposted it yeah good luck shoot your shot you know

0:09:23 Thomas: If any, yeah. Does anyone have any way? Yeah, man. She's just, she's just too good. I kind of want her to just, she's too good, she should just be single, but I wouldn't want that. You know what I mean?

0:09:25 Lydia: Instagram I think it works slide into those dms yeah no

0:09:35 Thomas: Like I don't want, I don' t want her, to be with anyone, because she's TOO GOOD. I' m just kidding. Kidding. Totally kidding. Not really. Anyway, take our first break. patreon.com slash fun Thomas meeting AOC. No, that's my other Patreon.

0:09:41 Lydia: One can measure up do your

0:09:51 Thomas: patreon.com/seriouspod. We'll take a quick break and then we'll get into this actual interview that happened and go from there.

0:10:02 Ad: [Ad break 1 — ad music]

0:10:02 Thomas: So this was an ABC News interview. I've got a 20 minute segment that I'm not going to play. Obviously, I guess I'll try to like keep it to the the main thing we're talking about. But But yeah, it's really interesting because this guy isn't like bad, but even this Jonathan Carl from ABC News, who seems friendly enough, falls into the thing I kind of just said before the break.

0:10:14 Lydia: Best

0:10:27 Clip: What do you make of those controversial statements I'm sure you've seen? I mean, she's, you know, the Thanksgiving dust-up. She says she doesn't, you Know, still believe that. But, you Now, the abolished prisons, abolished police, which is also positions that have been taken by a lot of the progressive candidates who have won. How do you get around that? Those are not positions that are supported by most of the world. Right. I mean, I think that a lot of these races, even right now, they'll have a tendency to be nationalized. But these races ultimately are local, My understanding is that Francesca Hong has made clear her present stances to her electorate. And I have a local city councilman that has this, uh, saying, -"Woke One was crazy." -"Wake One was Crazy." And I think that what's important is that we have to assess what a candidate is saying. Did the movement go too far with some of those positions? I mean, you briefly supported the idea of defunding the police. Well, you know, I think I think that during this time and during especially during covid, there was a huge opening of the overtime window. We were shut down. There was some of the highest unemployment rates that we have seen because of those shutdowns. And I think the the doors were really open in trying to entertain any and every policy that was going to get us to a better place. And I actually think that the discussions that were had in that time were quite fruitful. I think that when we talk about crime today, it's fundamentally different than the way that we talked about crime in bringing crime down, right? And I thinkthat we all share in the goals of having as low a crime rate as possible. I thinkthat, you know, during lockdown, of course, rhetoric in that tim is not rhetoric that we would use today. And I'm grateful that these candidates have the opportunity to present who they are to their electorate and what they're campaigning on in this moment.

0:12:36 Thomas: So that's the, I mean, I guess I can't say it's like the full context, but I think it's enough to get what's going on there. So first off, I love AOC and any criticisms I have of her is A, could just be wrong, but But B also is likely about more about tactics than actually anything substantive. Like, I believe that she is a good person who wants to make things better for people and is going to try to say things to maybe get elected. That's what I believe. And like, people are free. Yeah.

0:13:08 Lydia: Yeah because she she thinks she can make things better for people not necessarily for her own personal gain yeah

0:13:11 Thomas: In order to make Things Better for People, I think she could be wrong in her view of that, like she could me, or she could b right and I could b wrong. That's certainly a possibility. But I don't think this means she really is different in any substantial way than I ever thought she would be. But the thing is that there are, okay, wokest to wokest right here. I think the thing that among wokies that I would say is, well, fuck all that noise. None of that was crazy.

0:13:40 Thomas: Short of the aforementioned crazies that you can find in any corner of anything and the people who maybe went a little too far as a whole, the substance of quote unquote, I'll use the fucking shorthand woke one was correct and is correct. And the parts that got overblown and the parts that people jump to to criticize I think it's really telling like what they are for one it's defund the police which is just an unpopular phrase like people don't like that phrase and so naturally I think that like what mainstream or prominent or any like what elected officials use that phrase it's like barely any yeah Joe Biden said fund the police Like famously, the guy who was the top of the party said, fund the police. He was so against defund the police that in his State of the Union said, that's dumb. We should fund the Police. So like when you're looking at trying to criticize a whole party and smear it as something, it's pretty weird to look at the top guy at that time who is the president and see him saying not only no, but fuck no. This is what I mean. Like this is, I think you could

0:14:20 Lydia: Oh elected yeah yeah yeah

0:14:56 Thomas: Have a good faith criticism about like, okay, what phrases should people use or might be the most effective or versus like, there are people who think literally abolish the police. And I think that I have more in common with those people than probably mainstream America. But if somebody put it to me, like if you were running for fucking president, that's not going to fly. Like people aren't going to, they're not goingto go for that, you know? So I get it. It puts AOC and others maybe in a tough position. But beyond that, I think the people who said defund the police, I think how much was that indicative of anyone in power versus how much was that a great opportunity for the right wing bullshit misinformation complex to seize on those examples and make them famous and make those the people that you heard from the most and then then assign defund the police as the default position or the catchphrase or whatever because it's useful to them.

0:15:58 Lydia: I was going to say, like, even in these places where you would think are progressive beacons across the country, literally defunding the police was not happening from a policy position anyway. Budgets were being examined, perhaps. But in most cases, even în places where, like they were examining them, the police forces often walked away with more money. It literally did not happen at all.

0:16:20 Thomas: Yeah, it didn't happen. There was like one place where they almost tried it and then it went away instantly because it was not popular. That's the thing. It's not popular, unfortunately. Maybe I should back up a second. When it comes to AOC and there are others, also how Francesca Hung handled her thing, which I want to place some of that too. I do not think it works or is a good idea to do anything like suggesting, well, you know, yeah, we all were a little crazy back then. I don't think that's good. I think that'S bad. The thing that people want more than anything in their candidates is we want to feel like they believe what they say. That'S more important than almost anything, I would argue.

0:17:06 Thomas: I think THAT this day and age, you know, a lot depends on what election we're talking about, what level. But all else being equal, I think people would actually forgive some bad positions or positions they disagreed with pretty hard if they feel like the person genuinely believes what they're saying. Those candidates, and there's not that many of them, but the candidates where people are like, yeah, I believe Bernie believes what he's saying. Like, there's a reason why, you know, there were actually a lot of people who were like, well, either Trump or Bernie in 2016. Like that was that was a real group of people. And it seemed insane to a lot of us but it makes a weird kind of sense because people are rightfully fed up with the status quo and part of that is feeling like it's this corporatized democratic focus grouped candidate that's going to say exactly you know the bill clinton thing of saying exactly what the polls say 51 are going to support all the time like people don't want that right now They don't want that at all. They want to feel like the politician is a real person who has goals and believes them and believes what they're saying.

0:17:34 Lydia: Yeah. Authenticity, right? Yeah. And that's not to say that you can't change your mind either. Right. Like like you can do that authentically as well. And I think that that's kind of a missing component for a lot of politicians for whatever reason. They have to like pretend sometimes that they never believe something. And it's like, well, you could just if you believed that then and you come to a different understanding now, you can still address it in a way that's like a normal human reaction.

0:18:32 Thomas: I agree. So the thing that I first want to say, I really strongly think no one should do on the left or whatever is play into this idea that like, well, back then, you know, we were kind of crazy. You can't believe it because then people are going to be like, oh, so you just were responding to public pressure and you don't actually you didn't believe what you were saying back then. Like, that's just that's poison or something like there's no good way to look at that. And so depending on who the politician is, there may be like things they have to walk back. I think it's going to Be individual to the person. I mean, we could talk about Tallarico. He had a few things. You know, there's a lot of examples. But AOC, I don't really think she has anything to apologize for at all. And I would like to see her be stronger on this. And by that, I mean, there's so many ways. There's so much to be said. So many ways you can answer this. And to your point a second ago, I did want to say that as well. If someone has genuinely just changed their mind, okay, fine. But give me like what the issue is, why you thought what you thought and why do you think what you think now?

0:18:37 Lydia: You were manipulating everybody. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Hmm. Yeah exactly.

0:19:35 Thomas: Give me specific. This is what fuels the entire anti -woke bullshit is non -specifics. You know, it's always been, well, they think Jifan the police, okay, who thinks that? Who thinks defund the police? What do they mean by that?

0:19:51 Lydia: Right.

0:19:51 Thomas: What specifically do they need? What power do they have? What could they even do? You know, like all these specifics. Nope. They just want to say, well, they over there believe defunding the police. And so that you can think the maximally worst

0:20:01 Lydia: They really want to rest on those pronouns. Pronouns.

0:20:05 Thomas: Thing. Yeah. So that you could think the maximum worst thing, if you're a reactionary, if you were just like a typical American or whatever, who's not probably going to agree with defunded the police, because it's not a popular phrase. They want you to be be able to think maximally about that, to be able to say, okay, as many of the left as possible believe the most maximal version of defund the police. That's what they want. But get specific. What did people think? And why did they think it? And if they changed their minds, why?

0:20:31 Ad: [Ad break 2 — ad music]

0:20:31 Thomas: AOC, like she did use the phrase when talking about like, you know, we're looking to reduce the NYPD budget. We're looking to reduce it. We are looking to like defund that $6 billion budget. She clearly didn't mean abolish the police, she clearly was, because the first thing she said was reduce the budget. And the other thing she said, I actually wanted to go back to because it was really good. The other place where people go when they say that she supported defund the police was this Instagram statement that I think is really good, actually.

0:21:01 Thomas: And I actually remember this and it makes a ton of sense. So someone asked her, it's like the Instagram questions thing. What does an America with defunded police look like to you? And she said the good news is that it actually doesn't take a tonne of imagination. It looks like a suburb. Affluent white communities already live in a world where they choose to fund youth, health, housing, etc. more than they fund police. These communities have lower crime rates, not because they have more police, but because they have resources to support healthy society in a way that reduces crime. When a teenager or preteen does something harmful in a suburb, I say teen because this is often where lifelong carceral cycles begin for black and brown communities, white communities bend over backwards to find alternatives to incarceration for their loved ones to, quote, protect their future, like community service or rehab or restorative measures? Why don't we treat black and brown people the same way? Why doesn't the criminal system care about black teens' futures the way they care for white teens' features? Why does the news use black people's graduation or family photos and stories the way it does when it covers white people like Brock Turner who commit harmful crimes? Affluent white suburbs also designed their own lives so that they can walk through the world without having much interruption or interaction with police at all, aside from community events

0:22:12 Thomas: And speeding tickets. And many of these communities try to reduce those too. Just starting there would be a dramatically and radically different world than what we're experiencing now. What part of that is wrong?

0:22:12 Lydia: I know.

0:22:23 Thomas: Does anyone want to tell me any part of that is right? She's not out here saying defund the police. And by that, I mean, get rid of the budget, get it to zero. There should be no police. Like that's just not true. Like she didn't say that. That's not what she supports. There may be people and activists who did support that. I don't know anyone in power who supported that.

0:22:39 Lydia: I think like the closest you can think of is like other members of the squad may have been more hardlined about it or like their rhetoric may have been a little more hard lined about it. And then the way that people consume that stuff, a member of the quad, right? Like we're talking Rashida Tlaib, Ilhan Omar, AOC. If one of them says it, then they've all said it. Then it starts getting attributed to AOC as well.

0:23:04 Lydia: And I don't even think that they necessarily said anything insane, but I do think there is kind of like that shared accountability in

0:23:08 Thomas: Yeah. I want to just make some like possible suggestions for what would be a better way to deal with this. I don't know for sure. I'm not a politician. I'm, I don't know. But like right where she said there, maybe a way of dealing with this is to answer the question with, what do you, what Do you mean? What are you talking about?

0:23:27 Thomas: Oh, give me an example. Oh, that's not, I didn't, that'S not me. That'S someone else.

0:23:26 Lydia: The same way, in the same way. Like when someone says a racist joke and you say like, I don't get it. Like, like just start asking questions. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good tactic.

0:23:38 Thomas: So if we look at the question, it's a little bit sloppy, but it's centered around Francesca Hong. First off, this interview is bullshit. Like that part. And there's stuff later too, where he brings up like, you know, Hassan Piker. It's always the same shit.

0:23:53 Thomas: We're bringing up, who have you to know? Who do you talk to? Who support? It's like personal drama or something. It's Like, ask someone what they want to do to fix the country. Can someone ask someone about a policy ever, please? Ever? Yeah.

0:24:08 Lydia: Instead of internet drama. Yeah.

0:24:11 Thomas: Is there, is there a way to, like the thing I said on Facebook, just, we need to learn the lesson from Donald Trump that was, I mean, it's not good, but it is a reality now. He found a way, he found a new way to beat the media because the media, their tactics only work if you feel shame for one, there's all kinds of ways to get around their bullshit questions with Trump. He's getting around good questions oftentimes, but, it is the same thing, which is like either a pivot or go on the offensive. Offensive. I mean, you don't have to be like mean per se.

0:24:42 Thomas: It depends on who the interviewee is, but can't she ever pivot to like, hey, what, why are you asking about this? What does this mean? Like what, what like, what is the point of this? First off, what's this interview?

0:24:51 Lydia: Why am I here?

0:24:51 Thomas: It's just, yeah. What, like, do you want to know about what policies I, what bills that I would support or what, like what are we doing? We need to just do the Tucker Carlson impression. What are we doing? Like just coming back to that, put it on them, put the burden on them. What statement are you talking about? What position are you talking about and what candidate at what level and what what are they proposing? Like just give me you could form a shtick of I'm so tired in dealing with these. They said they tweeted they whatever. Give me specifics. You know, there's a lot of different ways you could do it, but getting specific would be great, especially when AOC doesn't really have anything to apologize for that. I mean, who knows what she might have tweeted that I don't know about or something, but for the most part and then or another way you could doing it is pick up on defund the police. Okay. Defund the police. I think her post that I just read is brilliant. I think she should bring that up. Well, you mentioned defund the police is something that people are running away from now, but look at life in the suburbs. That's essentially what people meant. You know, she could go through her shtick that she just said. I think that's such a good example. And you could come back to, with all of this stuff, I think people should come back to, what is the problem we were trying to solve? The problem that we were trying to solve was, we just witnessed, you know, speaking broadly, we We just witnessed a white police officer with a history of misconduct murder a black person in front of everyone, times however many. That's the problem people were responding to, to say the least. Overpolicing, systemic racism, violence committed on black and brown people, mainly by police and beyond violence, like overpolicing and over -incarcerating, like all this stuff, like that's the problems we're trying to solve. Now, maybe you could put it on an interviewer. What's your or whoever else's policy like what's their suggestion what's donald trump or whoever the candidate is what's Their plan to help that to make that better what is it okay nothing because my plan is here it is my ideal would be probably what you and I have we never interact with the police back to her instagram post like coming back to that coming back To that very reasonable view of what defund the police should look like and set it up as that's an ideal that's a place place that we were trying to reach. And that is still a good place. And I think it's always I think Bernie does this a lot, too, where he just asks the interviewer sometimes like, well, do you think it'S good that the billionaires control, you know, and sometimes the interviewers like, oh, I'm but an interviewer. I don't have to. But but I kind of think that's bullshit. Like, I think if the media is going to ask these stupid fucking questions, I

0:27:27 Lydia: Often pointed.

0:27:28 Thomas: Think IT'S fair. Yeah. What gets me about this is the media grills the side that actually is responsive to facts and or shame. If they try to ask Trump or anybody, MAGA, what are you going to do about such and such problem? It's pointless. Like they don't have a solution. It's bullshit. They're lying. It's nothing or they aren't even there.

0:27:49 Thomas: So it's just like, all right, well, we, the media can't do anything about that. So let's just focus on what we can do, which is over scrutinize the one remaining side that has any chance. Yeah. That has any desire to do anything positive in the world. And it's just bullshit. Shit. I think, I think it should be fair to ask, well, okay, what's happening now? Do you think there's no systemic racism? Do you think there's no problem in policing? No. Oh, you do think there's Okay, what should be done about that? If you're going to criticize the ideals and the goals to say nothing of like, there really wasn't much policy that happened. But there's just because most of this is most of his goals. Most of this has people stated there shouldn't be prisons or something. You know, it's like, if you're gonna argue with those goals, well what is your goal?

0:28:00 Lydia: That actually shows up to talk to us. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:28:35 Thomas: There's one I have to play. I got to play this. So this is Caitlin Collins. This is one of the interviews about the, you know, kind of grilling Francesca Hong on past stuff. And she's an interesting candidate. We could, I mean, it's kind of irrelevant now, I guess, but it is part of the broader thing that I really want to talk about, which is this over -scrutinizing, like the way that the center left, the mainstream left and the mainstream media try to set up these elections as like, this is the test of democratic socialists.

0:29:04 Lydia: The future of the left.

0:29:07 Thomas: And then the election is a difference of 0 .2%. And it's like, well, I guess they're fucked. I guess there's no progressive left anymore. Democratic socialists fail. You know, it's, like, the way they set that up is so frustrating and stupid. And this is the Democratic primary for the Wisconsin governor. And, I mean, this is so razor thin. As of now, I'm actually surprised they've called it so confidently, to tell you the truth. I mean, I have no, I haven't seen anyone argue that it shouldn't have been called. So I'm guessing there's a good reason, but it says it only says greater than 95 % in. So maybe that actually means like almost 100 % in because otherwise, like the difference is out of 792,000 votes, the difference is 3,800 votes, 3,900 votes. So that's a 0 .48 percentage point difference, which I mean is kind of crazy that they so confidently called it. Like if there really were 5 % left to count, could that not change? But anyway, let's say that's the final vote. Nothing in your worldview should change as a result of 4 ,000 Wisconsin's and not even that 4,000 Wisconsin's who vote in the Democratic primary

0:30:16 Thomas: Who happen to choose. I mean, I guess you could split in half, too, because if 2,000 of them go the other way, then all of a sudden, well, it's what an amazing victory for the Democratic Socialists versus 2 ,00 of them switch their vote. Oh, no, this Democratic Socialism thing is a joke. You know, it'S just fucking stupid how we do that. Almost nothing should change in your worldview as a result. Now, if it was a blowout, it was 100 to nothing or something. Yeah, sure.

0:30:41 Thomas: Okay. That's definitely, you could get something out of that. But I mean, this is just, it's just fractions of a percent. But anyway, I did watch this whole interview and she was better than I thought because I think I had seen some of her worst clips being shared, you know. Let's finally at long last play this part of this interview here. Okay.

0:30:58 Clip: You said you don't support abolishing prisons. Do you still hold the view that you that you laid out in May, which was that in a perfect world, it would be a world without prisons?

0:31:09 Thomas: I just want to stop there. Yes. Yes. This was crazy to me because if someone asked me, hey, in your perfect world, would there be no prisons? I would say, well, fucking haven't you listened to the Big Rock Candy Mountain? Yeah. You never change your socks and a little stream of alcohol comes trickling down the rocks. Yes. In my perfect world. The jails are made of tin, you know. Come on. Obviously no prisons.

0:31:36 Thomas: The cops have wooden legs. Obviously. Why would your answer be anything but, well yeah, I mean, in a perfect world Why would why would you want prisons in your perfect world? Are you fucking kidding me? Are you an idiot?

0:31:35 Lydia: The perfect world means that nobody's committing crimes.

0:31:48 Thomas: Yeah, like what?

0:31:49 Lydia: Things are good. We wouldn't need them.

0:31:51 Thomas: That's what I would answer, I would think. But what does she answer?

0:31:55 Clip: I think talking about what may be aspirational and then understanding the role of the governor, what they can and cannot do and what is implementable right now. Now, these are different conversations. If we're going to be serious about public safety and ensure that everyone's human right to feel safe is what we are trying to do, we have to make sure that the system right now that is incarcerating more black and brown men than any other state in the country right now, where we have our schools are having to go to referenda just to try to figure out if they can keep the lights on, making sure that we are delivering solutions, not focusing on labels or slogans because governing ultimately is about making sure that we're working with our partners in communities on the issues that they care about.

0:32:45 Thomas: So like, again, I actually was pleasantly surprised by her answers. Again, it's kind of irrelevant now. But there's other interviews where she has a decent job. Honestly, it'S not it's not like amazing. I don't think because I really, I really think people want to see more fight out of people. People. And especially when you have an opportunity like that, when someone, I guess, accidentally asks you, hey, do you still support this insane idea that in your perfect world, there aren't prisons? How about take the opportunity to get a little bit animated to show the absurdity of this whole fucking enterprise, this whole exercise of trying to grill someone about their fucking tweets?

0:33:21 Lydia: I hear you but I think that that is such a fine line as a woman there is so much that you have I don't know absorbed from society about like how you present your actual positions and like the animation that you're allowed to do no I know but but I just think about that like the way Bernie presents his positions you think about like a woman doing that and like they would not be beloved in the same

0:33:33 Thomas: I'm not saying be me. I

0:33:44 Lydia: Way like Like it just wouldn't be. Yeah.

0:33:45 Thomas: Agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. All that agreed. It's harder. A hundred percent. I'm just speaking generically. So whatever, whatever version of that, I guess could work. I mean, I'm not saying like insult someone and throw it in their face, but I am saying take the opportunity to be a little more on offense is all. And again, whatever vision of that it is, you know, I don't know. It was going to depend on the person and definitely you're totally right. Depends a lot on, on the gender, but there is still a difference, whoever it is between, are you on offense or are you on defense we can all agree that right I mean there's just a difference and taking the opportunity to be a little bit on offense whatever that looks like and just say yeah of course don't you want that would you want prisons in your perfect world and you can ask it nicely utilize that a little bit

0:34:33 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:34:33 Thomas: I want to play a little more because there's there's a little Bitmore here that's frustrating here

0:34:36 Clip: If you win, the primary will be the Republican that you're facing. He keeps bringing up your past positions, what you've said. He said the facts are louder than campaign spin was his comment earlier. You have said you do not support the full platform of of the national DSA and that you are not endorsed Which parts of the democratic socialist platform

0:35:00 Thomas: God I'm so fucking sick of hearing about

0:35:03 Clip: I think looking at where the Senate is right now, abolishing the Senate when there's an opportunity for us to take that with democratic majority is not practical. Well, I think that democratic socialism to me is ultimately rooted in care and making sure that people have their needs met. It's about democracy, fairness, and human rights. We have the, I am one of the proudest Packers fans, our publicly owned NFL team. I think when I talk about potholes and making sure people pay their fair share of taxes so that we're able to fix the roads, and have fire and EMS services that are available regardless of where you live in Wisconsin, these are the things that I'm talking about, issues that voters care about. Tom Tiffany is having to go back to a lot of my old tweets because his actions and his resume, what he's done, is defunded health care, ripped food chain away from our children, supported a national abortion ban. And last time I checked, he still hasn't said who won the 2020 election.

0:36:04 Clip: Being an election denier is an automatic disqualifier. So when you are the weakest candidate for the Republicans to put forth, it's likely that you're going to have to attack former previous tweets of a candidate right now that's building a movement. So you do support the Senate the Supreme Court and and prisons so you

0:36:01 Thomas: This look I I thought caitlin collins was like one of the better ones but what what is that question so you do support

0:36:32 Lydia: Yeah she pushes back with Trump a lot for sure but yeah this is bizarre.

0:36:34 Thomas: This is a joke like Like, I think this is more an indictment of media in general. Yeah, it's just so you do like she listens to that whole answer, which was good. Pretty good.

0:36:38 Lydia: You know the great American institutions the Supreme Court, the Senate, and prisons. Yeah Yeah.

0:36:45 Thomas: I mean, again, I don't mean any of what I'm saying is like a big takedown of any of these folks like at all, but in the spirit of we should not be running away from apologizing for or pretending woke one was crazy. That's my overall sentiment. So I'm picking the places where I wish we were doing this differently.

0:37:05 Thomas: This is not a takedow. I hope I wasn't being misunderstood by any means. I really liked like 80 % of her answer.

0:37:11 Lydia: I wanted her to go harder on the Packers being publicly owned and that is so important to people who are Packers fans like, that team is so important to them. And if she continues to equate, like, hey, that's socialism.

0:37:19 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. That's a good. Yeah.

0:37:25 Lydia: Like, this being publicly owned, this is not owned by a private entity or just a rich person sitting in their own little box. This is owned by the people. And look at how beautiful that is. And look at how we all can come together and celebrate this team and put our resources towards the things that we agree are in its best interest. That's exactly what we should be doing for the government. You know, like, I don't know.

0:37:47 Lydia: I think there's an opportunity to really, like get specific to your point from earlier. Get specific about the stuff, too, from our end as well.

0:37:53 Thomas: And just people also react to posture and the overall posture here. And again, I don't think this was terrible. I think elements of it were good, but the overall thing that I'm trying to get at is she's on her back foot a lot with this. Like this was a big, she had to do a lot of interviews like this, where she was constantly seeming to be apologizing and backpedaling. And admittedly, I don't know the answer for if I were a woman trying to think about how to like, admittedly that's a really hard problem, but I do think that there needs to at least be some way to try to attempt a more proactive stance at least, you know, like, and there are elements of it. I'm not saying she failed at it, but this is, you know, this is a nine minute interview. There's a lot of a lot of that, like the part. Well, OK, first I want to go to this idiotic fucking question since we were on it. But then I want to go back to the part that I thought was weaker in the answer. The point of this is just we're going to be seeing a lot of this, you know, like midterms are coming up. We're going to see a lot of people on the left, both trying to because they're centrist, trying to bash woke or because they are more progressive, trying to like find a way or to deal with this. And I just, I think this is important how we do this. That's why I want to talk about this. But that fucking question, what an embarrassment of a question. What an embarrassment of questions to listen to all of this.

0:39:15 Clip: Do you support the Senate, the Supreme Court, and prisons the existence of prisons yes I support all those things right now that are helping to ensure that there is public safety but I do believe right now in our Supreme Court that we should be working to expand the court I think

0:39:22 Thomas: What? What? That's just a fucking embarrassing question by Caitlin Collins. Like, what are you talking about? Do you support the Senate, the Supreme Court, and prisons? What? What are you talking about? This is just an example of where the, like, Like we have so lost it. We have so lost it like that's what's important is give me yes or no prisons. What this doesn't mean anything. She's going to be governed. You think she can close prisons. Do you think she's going abolish the Senate as governor like it's just stupid and she got to some of that, you know a little bit of it. I think her answer when she brought it back to the guy and how he's an idiot and he doesn't have anything else to attack. I think that's good, but I really didn't like the first part of her answer about the Senate. It looked like she was just giving a self-serving answer of like, well, not now that we could have a chance to take it back.

0:39:45 Lydia: Yeah, yeah.

0:40:24 Clip: I think looking at where the Senate is right now, abolishing the Senate when there's an opportunity for us to take that Democratic majority is not practical.

0:40:33 Thomas: Like, that's terrible. I'll be honest. Like, I think.

0:40:35 Lydia: Yeah I don't think that's gonna play well with the American public either. Like, I think that.

0:40:38 Thomas: And here's the thing. We should abolish the fucking Senate. Like, for one, you could just completely pivot and reject that is not important. Like, it's just stupid. I mean, one of the big problems and I wanted to this is a topic for possibly episode number nine of however many we could do of this. But the DSA, the Democratic Socialists, the national DSA has this policy platform that has a bunch of stuff that like, I probably agree with most of it, but there's a bit that's like, what are you doing? I don't know.

0:41:15 Thomas: And it's not helpful. I also think that because it's pretty radical, it's quite radical. And because it shares a name with a lot of these people, like in the AOC interview, I'm not sure how much of this I played, but they talk about like they withdrew their endorsement of her like the national dsa and she's like yeah that's fine I'm in the new york dsa like it's there's all this like internecine like intrigue of this but like bullshit people bickering with one another political type thing when it comes to these dsa groups you know there's a lot about it that's just like this is not relevant it's just not relevant like it's fine. I'm not saying they shouldn't. They can do their thing. You know and that's what aoc said a lot was like hey freedom of speech they have their ideas fine so I'm not saying they shouldn't get to do that but so much is made about this fucking DSA of America policy platform that they have on their fucking website. And I just want to be like, Hey, I don't know who that is. You know, like, I do not know who even is that? How many people is it? What do they even represent?

0:42:12 Thomas: It is constant. Like this, again, yet another example of how fucking out of touch and skewed our entire ecosystem is that people are being constantly asked about some things, some people typed on a website. I don't know who those people are. And so it might be interesting to look at who those people are and like what that means, but it's not really relevant.

0:42:12 Lydia: Mm hmm Yeah.

0:42:31 Thomas: Anyway, point is she's being asked to abolish the Senate. First off, yes, we should abolish this Senate, but you also could say, Hey, um, I'm running for governor. Why are you asking about this? I think you can bring it back. And Bernie does this, I think pretty well. And it's the good version of, I think what Trump does like Trump's version is all the lying media, the lying, failing, no good New York times. Sometimes that's the dumb version, but the spirit of it actually is something we should do, which is basically the spirit of it is this is a bullshit fucking question and it's a sign of how bullshit you are that you're asking this fucking question Yeah, that's in my head what I think people want to hear the spirit up now Obviously how you say that is important But yeah, like why are you asking me about the views of some group? That I'm not in like I don't even know if she's in that she said she doesn't agree with all of it So fine, but you're asking me about whether we should abolish the Senate as a governor What say do I have in that?

0:43:06 Lydia: Yeah. It's irrelevant. Yeah. Yeah.

0:43:29 Thomas: That's not gonna happen.

0:43:30 Lydia: Sounds like a question for another politician. Thank you, Caitlin. Next question.

0:43:34 Thomas: Is this what you think people need to hear? Is this what you think? People need to know what is this doing? I hate to be the cliche like grocery prices thing and I think it's best if people have a non cliche way of pivoting to that because it's sometimes it does sound a little like Fake Americans want to know why their groceries are so much but like Honestly, yes. Like Americans do want to know why their groceries are so fucking expensive. Find the non-cringe way of doing that. I really think you can try to be more on the offense.

0:44:00 Lydia: I think Mamdani has handled those kinds of setups pretty well. We've watched a couple of them where he's asked something where, as mayor of New York City, he has no say in. And I think he usually handles it pretty well, where he's like, yeah, I'm focused on the people of Newark and yada, yada. And looking forward to this new program that we're rolling out. He always finds a way to kind of get it back to his talking points without falling for those traps for things that that are just honestly irrelevant. He probably has perfectly reasonable opinions about various topics. He's also a voter in national elections. But when he's being interviewed as the mayor of New York City, he is there as the Mayor of New York City and speaking on behalf of the people of New york city with issues that relate to them. And I think he usually handles that pretty well and something that other politicians if you're not looking for national office, you don't have to opine on every single question they give you regarding the federal government.

0:44:55 Thomas: I think if your advice is be Mamdani, the greatest politician we've ever seen, probably since Obama, that's going to be tough for most people. But yes, he is speaking. Is he single? Is he still single, by the way?

0:45:00 Lydia: The template, you know.

0:45:07 Thomas: No, he's not. Unfortunately.

0:45:09 Lydia: Happily married.

0:45:09 Thomas: Are they open, though? No.

0:45:11 Lydia: You know, I don't know. Yeah.

0:45:13 Thomas: I don't think we'd know if they were, but you know, no, uh, just kidding. Uh, not really. Anyway, look, intro 70 was crazy. Yes. Fully agreed on that. I've made the point before. We all know this. One of the reasons the media is fucking bullshit and no one should care what they say anymore is it's completely without substance. I was just looking back. This is nine minutes. There's no questions of any fucking substance. This is a journalist asking a candidate to be a pundit on the candidate.

0:45:44 Thomas: What use is that? Here's the first question. I'm just going to try to go. Let's see if anything is asked that matters. First question. Ready?

0:45:52 Clip: When it comes to Michigan, you have not endorsed in that race. Abdul El Saeed said he's not a Democratic socialist. He's obviously the progressive in that race. Do you want him to win tomorrow night?

0:46:02 Lydia: It's a different state. It's a completely different state Hi, I'm running for governor of Wisconsin. It's a different state than Michigan.

0:46:02 Thomas: What the fuck are you talking about? Can we travel back to any time before 20 years ago? There's lots of reasons things in the past were not as good. This is one thing that was better. Journalism was better. You never would have asked a fucking question like this to a candidate for governor. Hey, who are you rooting for in the fucking, maybe, maybe at the end, maybe the end of an interview. This is the beginning. This is literally the opening of the interview. Hey, uh, do you want him to win? Do you want, what's, who fucking cares, man? What are we doing? Okay. Let's see. Second question. Let's get to the second question.

0:46:27 Lydia: Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah. The first question. Yeah.

0:46:43 Clip: Beats him tomorrow. What do you think that says about the argument that moderate Democrats are better poised to beat Republicans in November? Well, I mean, I think that's an interesting point

0:46:50 Thomas: Fuck off.

0:46:52 Lydia: Why are we talking about Michigan? Yeah.

0:46:52 Thomas: Why are we? So you want me to be a pundit? Am I a pundit? Am I, am I getting your job? I'm running. Am I running for CNN punditry? Yeah. What? Okay. Let's I'm just for fun. I'm going to keep going. Hold on. Hold on, it's going through. And I, I didn't know that I was going to just be picking on Caitlin Collins. Like, honestly, I, I was, I didn't even notice it until we were talking about it right now.

0:46:56 Lydia: Am I getting paid? Am I getting paid for this appearance? Yeah, in

0:47:15 Thomas: Like, wow, those are really shitty questions. It's weird. It's I don't watch cable news is the thing. Like I don't watch any of this kind of stuff cause it sucks, but like, this is our media. So I don' what are we doing? In. Here's the next question.

0:47:27 Clip: Because as we've been watching, you know, this trend from a political perspective, yes, a lot of Democratic socialists have been winning in recent weeks and months in New York and Colorado. You know, your race is different. You're not running a deep blue turf. It is a true political battleground in Wisconsin. When voters might go to vote next weekend and look at this

0:47:48 Thomas: Oh, hold on. Hold on. That sounds like we might be getting to it. Oh, voters are going to vote. They're going to vote in the election, the actual

0:47:48 Clip: And say, well, the current governor weekend and looked at this and say well the current

0:47:54 Lydia: The place that I live. Okay. Yes.

0:47:54 Thomas: Fucking election. That's yeah. Is she about to ask like, Hey, what, what policy, what something, what anything having to do with the job you're trying to get? Let's see. Hold on. What is she?

0:48:06 Clip: Governor hasn't endorsed you. He's endorsing the Democrat who's running against you. What's your argument for why voters should back you if the sitting governor in your party

0:48:16 Thomas: Some more. Hey, he said, they said, we said this person said like, that's the closest so far to anything. At least it gives her a chance to talk about substance, I guess. But it's still framed by this fucking bullshit popularity among, and yes, elections are a popularity contest, but not, this isn't the important kind. This is trying to get at the argument among Democrats constantly. Is it their job? Is that all they're trying to do? If I didn't know better, I would think the function of CNN is to try to highlight as much argument within the Democratic Party as possible. What use is that I'm

0:49:00 Ad: [Ad break 4 — ad music]

0:49:01 Lydia: Yeah, do it. Might as well.

0:49:02 Thomas: Just gonna keep looking just for fun oh my god jesus I didn't even see this I'll be honest with you I didn't see this

0:49:06 Clip: Is not backing you? In terms of democratic socialist, Bill Maher had some harsh words for your movement that you are part of and that you know you pay dues in your state I want you to listen to what he had to say about what he believes is happening inside the Democratic Party you said you don't support abolishing

0:49:13 Lydia: Bill Maher. No. I'd rather

0:49:14 Thomas: Bill Maher okay so unfortunately bill the Bill Maher part is cut from this clip so I don't know what that well I say unfortunately we can all guess what the fuck it was gonna be and it's what's your response to that so once again another question framed in a here's what another person doesn't like come on man what are we doing uh what are we doing?

0:49:31 Lydia: Not respond yeah Yeah, mm-hmm.

0:49:45 Thomas: And then now we get to the ones we've already heard.

0:49:50 Thomas: And now you could almost say that these were substance, except not really. I still won't count this because it's asked from the bullshit frame of here's what you tweeted because you're a democratic socialist. Like that's all this is. Here's what she tweeted. Here's what you tweeted. Then's the next one about, do you support the full platform of the democratic socialists of America? Again, it's a bunch of things abolishing the Senate and the Supreme Court. Uh, I don't think the governor of Wisconsin gets a say in that one. And then we get to the Thanksgiving thing. And actually, I think maybe we'll call it there. I really want to talk about Thanksgiving. I actually really do because it's a really interesting.

0:50:26 Thomas: The Thanksgiving stuff is what people are probably familiar with from Francesca Hung. And I have 11 trillion other things that we didn't get to. So I want to at least talk about that. And I know you have many responses to this woke 1.0 thing that we were going to get to. So we'll pause there. But just to note, though, that was a nine minute, 24 second, not counting the Bill Maher clip that was cut interview in which not a single meaningful question was asked.

0:50:53 Thomas: Just not a simple thing. Just all fucking nonsense. And I think we don't have to be Trump and say, wow, that's why you're the failing fucking New York Times. That's why we don'T have to do that. But like, why don't we do our version of that. Can we start doing that? We're too friendly to the media on the left, to this stupid shit. And I don't know why. And again, whatever our version of that would be, it doesn't have to be as hostile and shitty as Trump is. And it would actually be great if you did it in a really nice way. I think that'd be funny. I think that would actually be effective to my ideal. If I were to have any influence over this is to as nicely as possible, make every interviewer or make it clear to the people watching that the job they're doing is fucking stupid. Like just in the the nicest way possible every time. Wouldn't that be great?

0:51:11 Lydia: Mm-huh. Yeah

0:51:40 Thomas: Hey, what, um, what? Why, why are you asking that? Do you think that's what Walter Cronkite would have done? You know, like you've asked me six questions about what other people think about me broadly or whatever, like endure who endorsed to like, did you want to know any of my plans or, or anything like any of the issues facing Wisconsin? Any of the, you know, not a single question, you don't just, it's just, it's crazy. We live in a crazy fucking time. And this is all a very long-winded way of saying, get on our front foot instead of our back foot about this in some way. And we don't need to apologize for woke 1.0. It wasn't crazy. I wish AOC hadn't said that or quoted that and more on that in Thanksgiving next time. I think that

0:51:38 Lydia: Yeah yeah yep mediocre white guy love you

0:52:46 Thomas: Exactly, exactly. I need to feel like I have no chance.