WTW138: Graham Platner Is a R*pist

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:03 Clip: What's so scary about the woke mob, how often you just don't see them coming.

0:00:11 Clip: Anywhere you see diversity, equity, and inclusion, you see Marxism and you see woke principles being pushed.

0:00:19 Clip: Wokeness is a virus more dangerous than any pandemic hands down. The woke monster is here and it's coming for everything, everything, and everything. Instead of go-go boots, the seductress green M&M will now wear sneakers.

0:00:42 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Where There's Woke. I'm Thomas. That over there is Lydia. How you doing?

0:00:45 Lydia: Oh, you know, reeling, emergency mode activated. So I am what I am.

0:00:54 Thomas: Just loving male candidates for stuff.

0:00:57 Lydia: Yeah. Yep. I think it's about time we stop putting men up for positions of power. Perhaps well past time.

0:01:05 Thomas: Yeah, we gotta straighten it out. We gotta pause that while we figure out what's going on or whatever the Trump thing was. Yeah, figure out. We're not sending, men aren't sending our best. Oh boy, yeah. Yeah, yeah, we wanted to talk about Graham Platner right away. Because I just you know this is breaking news today and I uh I you know we've been very open along the way for the Graham Plattner stuff we've done a number of episodes on what we thought was you know kind of valid and not valid and it's not like uh I don't think anyone would get the idea if they were listening to us that either of us was like fans of his um by the end I was just, you know, wishing, wishing anyone else had won. Uh, I just didn't, I didn't know, like at the time that, that it really made sense to like call firm to, you know, drop out based on the information we had. Uh but now it's very simple, very easy, incredibly easy. Uh this guy is a fucking rapist and needs to drop out and we just want to talk about updated. I just don't want, I don't want anything to be out without the, you know what I mean? Like I just want want to get this out right away. We're kind of just doing an unedited, you know, just like emergency response, because when it comes to something like this, I don't want to have any of the old episodes standing on their own without this for any more time than is humanly possible.

0:02:08 Lydia: You're done. Yeah Agreed.

0:02:35 Thomas: Yeah. So we're going to talk about that, go through the allegations a bit and reflect on the whole thing, I guess. And the whole time, you Know, it's funny, the whole Time all along, I've said like, well, this is kind of more of an SIO topic, you know, and, but then we hit for schedule reasons. We ended up with it on here on WTW. And for that reason, we're, we we're seeing it through. We got, again, this has maybe more serious inquiries only, but, um, it's, it also still touches on it.

0:03:05 Lydia: We're housing all the Platner episodes together, too, right?

0:03:08 Thomas: Yeah.

0:03:08 Lydia: Like, it'd be weird to siphon

0:03:09 Thomas: I can't, we can't just do this one over there. So we're seen it through. And then this can be the last we ever talk about this fucking guy really, unless we we need to for some reason.

0:03:10 Lydia: One off. Yeah, and I do think there is still something to be said in the same ways that we talked about in the previous episodes, the reflection on media and journalism and potential failures of that role in all of this, too. I think that there's a real conversation to be had there. So I'm excited to get into that.

0:03:33 Thomas: I also think there's an important thing that maybe is happening that we should talk about when it comes to, like you said, journalism and all that kind of thing. It's interesting. Okay. So we'll take that usual first break and then we'll move on. We got to take that annoying ad break. You know how to avoid that and we'll moving on.

0:03:58 Thomas: Okay, well, why don't we start from the beginning? Obviously, we're not going to rehash all the stuff, but But the so this is the woman who said that he had shown up at his sorry, at her place, drunk, uninvited, and she left it there. And we talked about that. My memory is it was like, well, that's not good behavior. It's really not good.

0:04:19 Lydia: Oh, yeah. Well, because I reflected on an experience that I had where someone showed up at a place I was house sitting very, very drunk and and how like that behavior by itself is concerning.

0:04:31 Thomas: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think there's a lot of like and here's the thing. I think there's a lot of, um, kind of easy, you know, gloating that the people can do, which is fine, whatever, do what you want to do. If you, if you, a lot OF people knew when he had, because he had the tattoo that he was a rapist, which is impressive to me. They just, they knew that all along. Um, I stand by all of the analysis. Like, I think, I mean, maybe next time, maybe it's like adjusting that dial even a little more toward not trusting. We already didn't trust him. I don't trust him. And not that we had any... Again, if at any point in this process anyone had given me the power to push a button to select a new candidate or stay with him, I would have selected a new candidate the whole time.

0:05:18 Thomas: We've never been Graham Plattner-like fans. And the more that I was exposed to him, the less I liked him. But it just felt like it all kind of fell short of being what you needed. A critical mass of of stuff, what you really needed to be able to say in a convincing way to his supporters, hey, this guy, you can't support this guy. You know, it's just kind of tough, especially, yeah, good.

0:05:17 Lydia: Especially when the other option is Susan Collins continuing on most likely, right? Right. Like if that's what we're facing, then that's kind of it feels like a higher burden potentially.

0:05:52 Thomas: And especially, I was going to say, especially because he was running a campaign of, I'm a guy who had substance abuse issues and mental health issues and PTSD, and I'm not perfect. I made a mistake. Like, especially.

0:06:02 Lydia: Supposedly transparent.

0:06:03 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. It made it even harder when it was like, well, there's this behavior from the time period. He said he was going through these issues that that was not good, but like it just didn't quite meet that threshold to be able to again, to be able to tell people you can't support him, you know, which is a tough thing to do. Not that we've said this. I'll repeat it. No part of me was like. Yeah, he's great. And we never said that. And I think several times we said, like, I bet he has a problem with women. And I bet he's not a good guy, really.

0:06:34 Lydia: We also heard directly from people who like had interacted with him. There's a listener who's a Mainer and has said that they were, yeah, well, and they were really just heartened by his responses and his seeming his like care for the community and stuff and the ways that he was stepping up. And, you know, and that for me, it just kind of said like, okay, he seems to take accountability for these things. He seems to have reflected on ways in which he wasn't a good person or partner or whatever, and is demonstrating that he wants to do better and stepping up and stepping Up for his community as evidenced by this Mainer who has direct experience with him. And, and so like that just kind of, you get comfortable, I guess, in that. And

0:06:42 Thomas: Glowing things, right? Yeah. Yeah.

0:07:18 Lydia: Then, then we get an article like this. So yeah

0:07:20 Thomas: Yeah, we actually, we did hear from more than one person who, like, because I guess Maine is like a one town or something. I don't know. Everybody's like, I know him. Yeah, yeah, we cover everybody. So, yeah. And it was like, yeah? It wasn't insignificant. Like the amount of people that were like, yeah, he's great. I've interacted with him was obviously more than any other like candidate we've ever talked about, about anything. So that sucks. You know, that definitely sucks. Why don't we just for people who aren't up in it, though, I think, I

0:07:26 Lydia: And anyone with adhd in maine is a listener to our show so yeah yeah sure yeah I can read it uh you want just from the top all

0:08:07 Thomas: I think so. It actually is pretty short and we might not have to do the whole thing, but I think we'll see if we can skip around as much as we can.

0:08:15 Lydia: All right so this is titled exclusive woman who dated graham plattner says he sexually assaulted her a woman who dated maine u .s senate candidate graham platner says she forced her to have sex with him nearly five years ago despite her repeated objections, an allegation Plattner denies. The woman, a 41 -year -old Maine resident named Jenny Rassacott, detailed the alleged incident to Politico in three interviews over the past two weeks. Politico also spoke with a man Rassakott dated and confided in the years after the alleged incident and reviewed documents, including emails between Rassackott and her therapist and messages between Ressacott and an acquaintance, whom she warned against getting involved with Plattner years before he ran for office. Rassaccott said she had an on-and-off relationship with Plattner, who is now the Democratic Senate nominee in Maine, for more than two years before he entered her rural Maine home uninvited one night in late 2021, deeply intoxicated, and forced himself on her while she repeatedly told him to stop.

0:09:10 Thomas: Yeah. Entered her home. Yeah. That's way different than showed up drunk and she left it there. We'll talk about that after the fact, but she left It there before. This is obviously a billion times worse. Not even close. Even just that. Even just stopping there, like entered her home already.

0:09:16 Lydia: Shows up drunk. Uh -huh. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

0:09:29 Thomas: That's like now it does say it was unlocked, right?

0:09:32 Lydia: Yes. Unlocked.

0:09:33 Thomas: Doesn't make it better, but it's like it's it's I guess he didn't like physically break a window and come in, I guess. But like, that's scary. That's like that's horrifying stuff.

0:09:42 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. She said she cut off contact with him after telling him the encounter was not consensual. Quote, I remember him grabbing my pelvis and being really forceful of me, she said. Quote. I remember the specific moment where I thought to myself, like, this is no longer my choice. Plattner denied the allegations. Quote These allegations are troubling, serious and false. Any accusation of nonconsensual behavior is categorically untrue, he said in a statement.

0:10:10 Lydia: Honestly, I hear that from any man and I'm like, no, especially especially a man like like that millennial, you know, Gen X sort of age range. Like you're not being honest with yourself then. Like just like even if you're looking back at like being a teenager and stuff and saying any allegation of nonconsensual behavior from any person who was a boy growing up. I'm just I'm sorry.

0:10:12 Thomas: It's yeah, it'S nothing. I mean, yeah.

0:10:35 Lydia: I find that ridiculous.

0:10:35 Thomas: Yeah, that'S the that'S at

0:10:37 Lydia: Ridiculous.

0:10:38 Thomas: That point, he'S in legal mode. You know, at this point, HE'S in, well, anything that would be legally, you know, sexual assault or rape, that 'S untrue. And, and, you know, but it's also so obviously, I mean, I don't know what else he can say at this point other than, uh, yeah. Okay. You know, like if he, if he was the kind of person who could admit it, um, I dunno if we'd be here, but they always have to do the, like, well, you can't downplay it. So it's, it's like, Hey, troubling, serious, but also completely false. Like really? Cause that's not, if they're completely false, I, I Don't know. Then it'd be like, why are they troubling that's that seems like oh no there's someone's just lying like it's just so obviously triangulated to be what that's yeah there's nothing else you can say don't worry uh the response from the campaign is way worse later so

0:11:07 Lydia: Believe women, but, yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. Uh -huh. Rassacott previously described reckless and unsettling, in quotes, behavior by Plattner to the New York Times, but says she didn't go public with the specific assault claim because she didn't want to be known as a rape victim. Rassacott said she later felt compelled to go public about her experience because the reaction to the Times story was dominated by controversy about another woman, Lindsay Fifield, who alleged Plattner mistreated her and faced attacks because of her ties to the Republican Party. Contacted by Politico, Fifield stood by the allegations she made to The Times and declined to comment further.

0:11:59 Thomas: This is well why don't you uh sorry read the couple more sentences here yeah

0:12:01 Lydia: My part of the story was just a read over, Rassacott said in an interview, and the story with Lindsay and the accusations of her being politically motivated. Rassaccott said she was torn over coming forward in part because she agrees with Plattner politically.

0:12:15 Thomas: That's a particularly tough part of it you know that she's like part of the part of her needing to do this is seeing that it really all ended up being about lindsey and I I just I think man I still I don't know what to make of five field like I really don't um I you know obviously it it seems more believable in retrospect of course um it doesn't really there's we don't have as of now any updates to lindsay five fields like story or evidence um so you know like I I think I you Know I think I still kind of have to stand by all we said about it before which is like it it certainly certainly could be true but there's a lot of problems with her as a as a you know starting the group to support Kavanaugh and like and all that she said about the especially now in retrospect seeing her saying that this was all ploy by the New York Times to help Platner it's like I just man that was tough that was a tough one what do you think about all that mm

0:13:18 Lydia: Man, it's complicated, because I remember Fifield, you know, later responding on Twitter, saying, you know, what about the the sexual assault allegations? And you and I were both like, what? Like, there's nothing like, like, what? Where would that be coming from? But apparently, and we'll get into it in this article, too. It's like, well, obviously, Obviously, there are allegations, and the New York Times journalists, like, were aware of that.

0:13:30 Thomas: -hmm oh were they I didn't

0:13:45 Lydia: Based on my reading of this, yeah,

0:13:45 Thomas: See that yeah because I was just thinking like it was this is a tough thing they they do and this is what I want to talk about

0:13:53 Lydia: She off the record shared with them.

0:13:56 Thomas: Really where is it oh okay we're gonna maybe we'll get to that later then maybe we should read on then

0:13:59 Lydia: Let's pause there then. All right. One of the reasons I didn't come forward sooner was the huge moral conflict that I had between supporting his politics but not supporting him as a person, she said. I just want the truth out there. I just Want people to have a whole scope of who he is as a person. In a statement, the Plattner campaign reiterated his denial and accused critics of trying to drive him out of the race.

0:14:19 Thomas: Here we go this is really bad are

0:14:22 Lydia: Quote, these allegations are very serious and Graham vigorously denies them. They are also coached and coordinated by out-of-state establishment operatives.

0:14:30 Thomas: You fucking kidding me coached and coordinated why would

0:14:31 Lydia: Unbelievable. Asshole. Like, that is the most, why would you even bother saying that? You don't have to pull that into it. What are you doing?

0:14:37 Thomas: I know at this point yeah who is this asshole like whoever this is at this point you're you're bagdad bob or whatever like this shit is not this is not going well like this this is the whole this isthe whole thing is falling apart and you're going to not only deny it's just stick to the like oh very serious graham denies I'm just stick fucking stick to that what are you talking about coached and coordinated if you as we read more detail you're gonna see how like even stupider it is to say that it's already dumb

0:14:47 Lydia: It's pathetic. Yeah. Yeah. You don'T have to go into this insane. Yeah.

0:15:08 Lydia: Yeah. For a year, opponents of this campaign have thrown everything they can at Graham, calling him a Nazi, a war criminal, and a communist. None of it has been true, and this is no different. It is not a coincidence that this story comes a week before the ballot deadline, just as the previous false allegations came a week before the primary. Okay. Graham began this campaign to fight for a Maine where everyone is treated with dignity and where Mainers are put first and no amount of desperate smears will stop this movement from seeing that vision through.

0:15:38 Thomas: Well the movement can have a different person then so the movement maybe the movement can still happen but just have a different different person

0:15:43 Lydia: Bigger than a person, you know, I think we can all agree on that, except for narcissist men. Plattner, an oysterman and political newcomer when he launched his Senate campaign last August, easily won the Democratic primary last month to face GOP Senator Susan Collins and one of the nation's most highly watched Senate races. His remarkable rise has been tainted by controversies, including offensive online comments and allegations of past mistreatment of women. He has not previously been accused of sexual assault. The Iraq and Afghanistan war veteran has linked some of his behavior to mental health struggles and alcohol abuse, but he says he's changed and has denied previous claims that he was abusive to women. Rassakot told Politico she connected with Plattner on the dating app Bumble in 2019 and had consensual relations with him prior to the night he allegedly assaulted her. That night in late 2021, she said she had exchanged text messages with him and told him not to come over, saying she wasn't in the mood for company. Later that evening, she said she realized when she heard a sound on the stairs that he had let himself into her house, which was unlocked. Yeah, nightmare. Plattner came up the stairs, Rassacott said, to where she was on a couch. He got on top of her and kept grabbing her, she said, while she repeatedly told him to stop and that she wasn't interested. Rassaccott said she smelled alcohol on his breath and believed he was, quote, almost blackout drunk because Plattner ignored her protests and continued to grab her after knocking over an antique sewing kit, spilling small needles everywhere. Quote, I had been telling him these words like, no, don't, she recalled. And the look on his face and realizing what was happening, I just realized that, like, I'm in a situation where there's no consent here, she said. Rassacott said she tried to separate herself from Plattler by telling him she couldn't be in that that room anymore after which he followed her to her bedroom and had sex with her against her will she said he also ejaculated inside of her despite her telling him not to as she was not using birth control at the time yeah

0:15:46 Thomas: Jesus christ yeah

0:17:30 Lydia: She went to clean herself up she said and when she returned plattner had fallen asleep she contemplated waking him up to kick him out but worried he could hurt someone driving in the state he was in which is again I didn't have the experience of sexual assault during mine but I had that same conundrum where it's like I don't want you here but you are more more dangerous, out on the road. The following morning, she said, Plattner tried to put his arm around her and she pushed him away. She said she asked him whether he remembered what had happened the previous night. According to Rassicott, Plattner said he didn't remember. Rassicott said she told him to leave and never contact her again. Rassicott said she waited several weeks until she got her period to ensure she wasn't pregnant, then sent Plattner a private message on Instagram saying that the encounter was not consensual and she did not want to hear from him ever again. Rassacott had no further contact with him after that, she said. Rassaccott said she later deleted all her texts and social media correspondence with Plattner as she tried to move on from the assault and said she has not been able to recover the Instagram messages she sent him about the incident. In the weeks after the alleged assault, Rassackott said she considered going to the police but struggled with shock and confusion about what had happened to her and did not file a police report. Even as time passed, she says she felt uncomfortable potentially telling a police officer about such a personal experience and feared retaliation from Plattner. At first, she confided only in her therapist, who she continues to see. Rassacott showed Politico recent emails with her therapist in which Rassaccott explained she was talking to the media about her relationship with Plattner and the S.A. rape using an abbreviation for sexual assault. In the message, Rassackott was not ready to go public and was seeking help corroborating her account in conversations she was having with reporters on condition of anonymity. Her therapist responded that Rassakot shouldn't have to speak publicly about a traumatic incident in order to be believed without referencing details of any particular incident. The therapist, who Politico agreed not to name at her request, declined to comment when reached on Monday.

0:19:21 Thomas: Kind of a weird paragraph

0:19:21 Lydia: Yeah, I agree. It was weird. I guess they're dotting their I's, crossing their T's, you know, kind of showing, demonstrating, especially to like the Plattner campaign, the steps that they went to corroborate this. Rassaka also shared details about the alleged assault to the man she dated after Plattner, who she began dating in 2022. The man, who was granted anonymity out of concern for his personal privacy, told Politico that Rassacott had told him in bits and pieces about a bad experience with Plattner before confiding the full details of what had happened in 2023. His account of what Rassackot told him about the incident matched what Ressacott told Politico. Rassakot shared with Politico a series of private Facebook messages she exchanged with an acquaintance in 2023, about a year and a half after the alleged assault and well before Plattner launched his political career, in which she cautioned the acquaintance against getting involved with Plattner. In the messages, Rascott said she had, quote, ended up in a bad situation with him, describing Plattner as, quote consensually careless and saying he, quote doesn't listen to you when drunk. Reached by Politico, the acquaintance said she received the messages but declined to comment. Politico granted her anonymity at her request to protect her privacy in her main community. And then we have a picture from those messages that doesn't include the quotes that

0:20:31 Lydia: They cite earlier. And I don't really know what the point of this is either. Together um yeah I I don't like then don't include this because it almost like downplays it

0:20:30 Thomas: I don't either yeah yeah it does seem like either don't yeah either don t include them or include the ones you re talking about like it s kind of weird

0:20:46 Lydia: Uh because all all that this has in it is uh rassacott saying I saw your post about oysters the other day I feel morally obligated to warn you if you were anything more than just friends with graham but if you're not then I'll just shut up for now and give you the scoop sometime lol uh

0:21:00 Thomas: It could be that whatever the messages are messages are have like other stuff that's just like too you know embarrassing or violating to share and then they don't want to do something where they like redact a whole bunch of a message because then that will be looked at as like weird yeah so it could be a decision like that um does seem weird though but whatever

0:21:09 Lydia: Suspect yeah yeah yeah politico also spoke with a friend rassicott had told about the alleged assault last summer shortly after Plattner launched his campaign. The friend, to whom Politico granted anonymity due to fear of social and professional backlash, recalled Rassacott telling her about the incident, including that Plattler had been, quote, very drunk and wouldn't take no for an answer. Rassaccott said she was contacted by the New York Times in the spring and shared off the record that Plettner had assaulted her.

0:21:42 Thomas: I I skipped I must have missed that when I read it the first time I was reading really fast

0:21:47 Lydia: I am so upset about this. She told the Times that she had some positive memories of her relationship with plattner but thought he did not respect women and had cut off contact with him after an incident in 2021 when plattner had come over drunk but the times article stated that rassacott quote declined to elaborate about what had happened only describing his behavior as quote reckless and quote unsettling I don't mind that they said decline to elaborate what I mind is is the the focus on five field as a republican throughout the article is like it almost Almost, man, yeah, I don't know how to grapple with this exactly, because I don't think that they necessarily did anything wrong from a journalist perspective. But, I mean, these are two women who are writing this article. You know off the record that one of these people has a sexual assault story involving this person. And like I don't there has to be a better way to

0:22:04 Thomas: Well well go ahead yeah yeah

0:22:44 Lydia: Get that story out without almost like seeding obvious ways to discredit the allegations, you know, from either, I guess, Democrats primarily. But like I I don't know that I really, really struggle with that. I don't know how you feel about it.

0:23:02 Thomas: Yeah so I I have um maybe a slightly different feeling which is that this makes me feel slightly better because what it seemed like before was that the new york times was just telling people like oh there's... there's some accusers oh by golly there's something and then the five field was she she was left with the feeling of like, wait, what, like, where are they? I thought, you know, like that's worse if it's like they were, if they were misleading people to be like, oh yeah, there's other, oh boy, there's the other people. And then there's not like, that's even worse. So I was actually looking, I was rooting for like, okay, I hope they fucking knew about it. But having said all that, what we, you can go back and listen to episodes if you want. We did what, two on Patreon and one, something like that. I did not expect it to be all that because Because I just, again, when we planned doing this, it was just going to be about the tattoo.

0:23:48 Lydia: Something like that. Yeah, that sounds right. Right. Yeah. Graham Platner miniseries.

0:23:56 Thomas: The tattoo and the Reddit, basically, was what was interesting, you know, at the time, what I thought. And I stand by, I think, everything about the Tattoo and the Reddit. I don't think anything's changed there. But when it comes to this, again. I think I said several times, like, hey, something else may come out. Or if anything else comes out, obviously, I'll change my view. And here we are. Anyway, I think when it came to the, you know, I stand by, okay, maybe this is a good time to talk about the thing I wanted to talk about. I think what happens in these situations, and we've seen this with, you know, real-life experience we've had, is it's a tough thing. I don't, I don'T know the answer, and I'm curious to think aloud about it with you, but what happens is these reporters often, and other actors involved, often know more than they can say, pretty much always know way more than THEY can say.

0:24:51 Thomas: And once they know, and this is the part that I think, I can't remember if I said this, I'm going to have to go back, but it was in the back of my mind. And I think my lesson from this, and I'm always trying to learn how to be more accurate, be more correct, is I think I might dial this knob up a little bit in terms of this this particular dynamic, especially because it was the New York Times, which I have a love -hate relationship with them. But when it comes to this reporting, you know, I think what happened here and what happens a lot is reporters, other people, they know that there's way more in the background, but they can't get people to go on the record.

0:25:31 Thomas: And I think there's a good argument, possibly, possibly, that they maybe just shouldn't have even done that article. I think if you don't have enough there, like if you do not have the people willing to say that, but you are in a tough spot. Like honestly, I think that is probably the very tough spot they were thinking. And there is part of it that I think is political and practical where they are like, well, we are getting to the point where it is too late in the game. Like we cannot wait any longer to put this out because Because if we're if the New York Times is and I don't I don'T think they're trying to achieve political ends in terms of that. But I do think they probably look at themselves and they say, hey, our function is to inform the populace and potential voters. And if we are if we have information and we don't put it out in time for people to change their vote,

0:25:44 Lydia: I know. That's kind of where. Yeah Yeah. Yeah agreed. Right.

0:26:26 Thomas: Then what is the use of us? Like we're not. And that's a tough that's A tough thing. Because I think there's a strong argument that if you took everything in a vacuum and say you take away the time pressure of the election, just for example, I know it's a weird kind of hypothetical, but like take that away. I think you just continue to develop that article. I don't think it was there yet. Because then it did the very thing that Rassacott is saying, is that it put all the pressure on Fifield, who's, you know, just in terms of like how it's going to be viewed is not the best witness, is

0:26:27 Lydia: I agree with that. Yep.

0:27:01 Thomas: Not, you Know, there's a lot of reasons to worry about

0:27:03 Lydia: People are gonna going to be very suspicious of her. Yeah.

0:27:04 Thomas: Her. Yeah yeah and and she honestly maybe she was telling the entire truth I've never said she definitely wasn't it just was hard because that it put us all in a really bad spot to have her be that the person that everything was based on and and I stand by my analysis of that article that it was kind of misleading in how it it really made all these broader claims but everything pretty much just came down to Fifield. Like all the important stuff was only her. And I think that means the article wasn't there yet. And they didn't convince people. And the ethics on that is tough too. I don't know how much they're... It's really hard. Are they allowed or willing to try to push someone to come clean? Not come clean. No editing.

0:27:52 Thomas: Sorry. Come forward is what what I meant to come forward and be like yes he did you know it's hard ethically ethically well

0:28:02 Lydia: I wonder like if I were in that position this is not necessarily part of your job as a journalist but I wonder if there should be if there should be some I don't know acceptance of this like if you are aware of of someone expressing that a crime has been committed against them. Like, imagine if this were like a child sex abuse sort of situation or something like that. If there's allegations of that, they wouldn't say decline to elaborate and, you know, move forward with that. Don't you think? Like, don't you feel like they would have, well, I know they wouldn'T have named the victim or anything like that?

0:28:28 Thomas: You can't yeah you can'T out them yeah you

0:28:42 Lydia: No, no, no. But I'm just trying to to grapple with like like understanding the seriousness.

0:28:46 Thomas: Also can'T tell their story without their

0:28:48 Lydia: Yeah. But like understanding the seriousness of these allegations and like and I don't know if it's that if you hear more than one thing off the record that have like a shared thing, if you want to like direct them towards like an advocacy group or like a like an organization or somehow see if they'd be willing to talk to each other, you know, just beside the article. Right. Right. Just to kind of develop strength in numbers. I know like the experience of Epstein victims is very much strength in numbers. And we've talked about that before with Eric Swalwell, that you're made to believe you're the only one. So you'll never say anything.

0:29:24 Lydia: But if you know that there are other people saying the exact same thing or very, very similar stories to Like that is so empowering and validating. And and I wonder if there needs to be some sort of evolution almost of some of these jobs where you are privy to more information than may that may never see the light of day.

0:29:48 Lydia: Not like a mandated reporter, but I don't know. And that's where I'm kind of, like, stuck. Like, did they let her down? Did they let these other women down because they were bound by journalistic standards? I donno. Know

0:30:04 Thomas: I don't I don'T boy yeah I DON'T know what else they could have done um I I think that man it's tough because it I I see where racicot is like oh it just all fell on this other person but like I don't know like I dont know whose fault that is and I dont no you know like so the thing I was I started to say too is um I think I think that this the way they did it makes more sense in light of knowing how much they behind the scenes probably know, because then you figure like as much as these reporters are all supposed to be unbiased, and I'm sure they are like in many different ways, you know, they claim to be Unbiased on trans rights and they aren't, you All that stuff. As much as they claim to be unbiased about stuff, reporters are human. And I think knowing more about someone just naturally is going to tilt your lens a little bit in how you're looking at all these things. And it's going to lean you more toward like, we got to get this out. And like, this is bad. Maybe when you maybe when you're writing these things, knowing what you know, knowing that there's more there, you're even maybe feeling like they're coming across slightly differently than they are to people who just have no none of that information. You know, I don't know. But I think that's something that's that that's the knob I want to turn a little bit in my mind, like, OK, if especially with a reputable outlet, you know, it does. And that's another bullshit thing about this day and age. It's like we all have to be fucking detectives, apparently, to like, okay, if it's this outlet, If it's Fox News, it's fucking nothing.

0:31:43 Thomas: Or maybe not. It's so hard. But when it comes to a reputable outlet, I think that it's unfortunate that we've had as many disagreements and problems with the New York Times as we have. As we have, because I think that maybe my bias was a little bit toward, oh, they're doing a kind of a bullshit thing here when it should more have been maybe there's so much behind the scenes that that's what forced them to do this thing that seems kind of off, you know, and it's hard because that involves more faith in the New York Times, who I've had a huge problem with mainly their transphobic bullshit. Like it's so it's not as easy as just saying like, well, they're they're reporters. You can trust that. You know, it's like I don't I can't trust them when it comes to trans issues like I just can't.

0:32:33 Thomas: And I know like it's scientifically like it'S not like an opinion. They're bad at that. And they're biased and they do bullshit with that. So it's it was that's that's it's tricky. But I think maybe when it comes to this kind of thing, maybe it is just a different category of thing. Maybe it's something where I should have thought in my mind, well, and I should've told you all, maybe, it's because there's more behind the scenes. And maybe the weirdness here is that people are and I think this is something I will probably look for going forward. If it seems like people are publishing stories that that maybe are not quite there, maybe that means there's more behind the scenes. But I don't know. Maybe that rule doesn't always apply. You know, it's like it's it's going to be hard. I could imagine the other way if it's somebody that genuinely is being accused of who knows what more for political reasons. Does that mean I'd be too, you know, liable to like take take the wrong. I don't know. It's like, it'S going to BE a balance. But I think I'm just turning that knob a little bit more in that direction to try to learn from this, I guess.

0:33:13 Lydia: Two thoughts for me on on this story that that popped up in my mind as we're talking about this one is that the new york times used her name and then you know did the sort of sanitized version of her story could there have been room for them to negotiate we will We will protect your identity under, you know, we will grant you anonymity if we can help elevate, you know, some, maybe you're not comfortable sharing the whole story, but can we work with, you know, like, like what is a more accurate way to describe this? So we're not feeling like we're covering up sexual assault. Like, you know, I understand you're not ready to tell that. We will protect your, your name, your identity. Like, like could Could there have been some negotiations that could have happened there? Also, we talked about, you know, like you can't pressure somebody to go on the record if they want to be off the record, et cetera. But then I recall what Lindsay shared in her Twitter, which is because she was willing to go On The Record, they kept coming back to her and kind of were putting pressure on her like, we need more sources. We need more documents.

0:34:44 Thomas: Uh

0:34:44 Lydia: We need mehr, blah, blah. And one, I just see it like it shifts the burden almost to another woman. So I don't know. I'm just, some things that popped up in my mind as we were talking about it.

0:34:54 Thomas: No so that comes across that came across to me and and maybe I'm wrong but that came cross to me as again she didn't really back up what she was saying that much and I think that might have been like hey we need to be more it wasn't like tell more of your story it was like hey we really need to have this more um buttoned up or whatever but but maybe maybe okay so maybe maybe I'm wrong. Maybe your point is more because other women weren't coming forward that put the more pressure to verify. I guess I interpreted as you're saying getting her to come forward more with more stuff. But I guess that maybe that's not what you're seeing. It's putting more pressure on her to like verify her story, have her story be more bulletproof because it's all kind of riding on her. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Again, I don't know like what the what the other option is there, you know?

0:35:24 Lydia: More pressure on her. Yeah. Because your other thing is, yeah, I mean, your other thing is that Plattner showed up to somebody's house drunk and his behavior was reckless and unsettling, right? Like that's your other, I mean, there are a number of claims in here, but that's one of the main other ones and obviously the one we're talking about today.

0:35:59 Thomas: Yeah. Well, here's what I want to say journalistically, too. There's a lot. I wonder if I mean, we've been talking a lot about about Sullivan, and I don't think Sullivan needs to necessarily and I would want to get smarter people that know more about the law than me to to comment. I don't know that I'm saying Sullivan needs to be like modified or something, but I wonder if I wonder if there's anything legally that could be different that would help this. And that might mean maybe journalistic outlets, especially, especially the New York Times. They have all the resources in the world. You know, they're they've they've got attorneys that have dealt with this a billion times. They've got money. Do they need? Well

0:36:44 Lydia: Like regulations that apply to businesses with more than X number of employees kind of thing. Like journalistic enterprises with, you know, whatever sort of qualifications.

0:36:51 Thomas: I'm just saying should they you know just like as a policy matter internal policy matter for them should they be a little more willing to face any sort of legal consequences because I still don't think it would be like we are talking about solomon actually solomon protects them in the you know like in this instance and solomon is like could it be could there be some way to say The Times has also heard from another a number of women whose allegations were incredibly concerning or something that like it's hard because I think journalistically that's a no, no, I think. But I wonder.

0:37:29 Lydia: But when we're talking about something that is like, like it's not something where there, like no one was hurt, right? We're talking about a situation where somebody was hurt in a very visceral, life-changing way. And and I feel like then you take your, you know, your pure journalist hat off and there has to be another way. There has to be another when we're talking about stuff like that. I don't know.

0:37:56 Thomas: Yeah I mean I think I think they have to be journalists. I think it's like, OK, is it ethical to, as a journalist, be pressuring an accuser to tell their story or to be named? I feel like that's very. Yeah, I'm just I'm asking, like, literally, I'm just going through the questions like I'm not like I don't think that's ethical. I think that's a bit, you know, I mean, I think I think there's obviously a fine line there. And I imagine that these journalists who have tons of experience with this probably have a spiel or like a set of statements they're willing to make. Like I could imagine saying stuff like, well, you know, it, it will, it will be very helpful or it will. It will be a much better case. The more people are, you know, who knows? I can, maybe they have some approach that they're willing to do. That's short of like, Hey, please, you know, out yourself. Like that's obviously tough. So that's one, one thing that I'm, you know, I'm not a hundred percent on like what the right answer is there. Um, is there, you know, should they have just held on to the story when they don't have have enough should they maybe recognize like it might do more harm than good to put something out where like I feel for uh five field

0:38:10 Lydia: I don't think so. Oh, yeah, yeah. Sure. Okay.

0:39:06 Thomas: Now you know I I stand by what we said yeah I I still and here's the thing I stand by what we said because I think it it it's it's I think it's fair to be very skeptical of her it is not fair and not appropriate to go tweet at her to talk shit on her like that's the main thing we need I meant to say this an hour ago or whatever the main things that we all need to fix as a society and it's impossible but we need to fix this fucking horrendous environment where accusers are are harassed

0:39:06 Lydia: I do too. Still don't like her. Yeah. Harassed. Yeah,

0:39:40 Thomas: Even if they have the most perfect story if they could be a perfect victim with perfect um proof and perfect what what, no matter what it is, it's still horrible for them. And part of that is that we, part of that is, and I get really irritated. Like I listened to the, uh, for example, the fucking interview with Chris Ruffo with Ezra Klein, you know?

0:40:03 Lydia: You did.

0:40:04 Thomas: Yeah. And it's like, and he'll, he'll do the thing. A lot of people on the right do the thing, but well, I, I got death threats, you know, I get death threats and I just want to be like, yeah, man, fucking everyone gets death death threats now. Like that's, yeah.

0:40:04 Lydia: I've I've been meaning to listen to that.

0:40:15 Lydia: Yeah. You're on the internet. You're getting them. Yeah.

0:40:17 Thomas: Like, and that's part of the environment you've created, by the way, Chris Rufo. Like you have done more to create that environment. And so part of me is like, you know, everyone's going to get death threats and this, like, everyone is going to get a certain amount of abuse. And that sucks. I wish we could end that, you know, like we need to be able to stop that. But we particularly need to to be able to find a way for our society to be better informed and better, just less sexist, better able to understand that, you know, the epistemology to reference kind of how I was talking in Serious Inquiries only in my talk, like we can be very, very confident, extremely confident that this person is telling the truth, like 99%, you know? It would make no sense otherwise you could point to, you could try to, um, pick out anomalies. Oh, why the timing's very curious. Oh the, well, the therapist thing was weird. Yeah. Okay. Sometimes things with humans are weird, you know, like sometimes they have most of the time, like we're kind of weird. Humans are weird. Things happen, don't happen exactly how you think they will. Um, and I think the point is, I think that I just, I just don't know if that first article was, was It was worth it. You know, like on one

0:41:39 Thomas: Hand, you might say, well, it led to this. Yeah, but I ethically I don't think that's I think I'd be careful about going down the road of, well if we kind of botch something but it forces a victim to come out later. That's ethically something you should be very careful about. Like, very careful. These folks, victims who are having to come forward are like they're potentially ruining their own lives, you know, and it's it's, it sucks. It really sucks. And so I guess bring that all back to the kind of the journalism thing. Do these outlets that have tons of resources need to be a little bit more risk-taking possibly to be able to say stuff like well an anonymous source who we have you know if you fuck it we have we can vouch for like we've seen the proof we've whatever you know told us this or something it's kind of you still would have to have her permission don't get me wrong but like if she could they offer her like, well, we can kind of put this much off record. I think you kind of mentioned that before. Like, here's what we could, yeah,

0:42:44 Lydia: Negotiate, sort of. Yeah.

0:42:45 Thomas: It feels weird and slimy in a way, but it's like, especially when it's another thing you've already referenced that keep circling on that unequal burden between among victims. You know, it's really thorny on all sides, But I just feel like if I take a step back and look at the legal kind of overview and I look at the risks taken and the resources and the power, I feel like honestly, the journalists are taking no risks and have all the power and resources. When it comes to the New York Times, it's not always true. A lot of outlets are tiny and don't have the resources, but they do. And I just wonder I wonder if that's where there could be a little bit more risk taking. I don't know.

0:43:26 Lydia: I think especially, like, I just think about, you know, we've been in this sort of, hopefully, transition period. Who knows how long it'll take? Generations, perhaps, that Me Too sort of kicked off in some ways where women have been more willing to tell their stories. And, you know, there's been some pullback and stuff from that in the last couple of years, unfortunately. But until the tide has turned where women have zero fucks to give anymore and everyone's just gonna be blasting everybody all the time and being like hey you did this to me hey you suck blah blah blah I I don't know like I just kind of feels like we're stuck in this weird goo that doesn't have any good way out or or in I don't know yeah

0:44:08 Thomas: Well, and a lot of that too, I read, you know, a while back books on restorative justice and a Lot of that, too, is like, it, it would be better for everybody if we had a system that allowed men or any abuser to be able to kind of admit stuff, you know, cause the system right now doesn't allow that. And I know I'm not, I'm not crying for the abusers. Don't get me wrong, but, but it is a better for everybody. Actually, if you had an environment where there's more of a restorative justice rather than our horrible punitive justice system, you know, that, that like incentivizes and disincentivizes anything good. Like it's especially, man, some of those books I read, it's really, you know, we talked about, it'll be like murderers who were like, you Know, the one that always stuck with me was the um it was somebody who had killed somebody and the quote was like it was the hardest thing I ever did was having to like talk or be confronted by the person's family like that was harder than any punishment than any time than any anything and yeah yeah and

0:45:10 Lydia: Truly atone right for the

0:45:14 Thomas: It's right and actually you know this impersonal way we do it where the state decides they want probably like worse punishment than even the family would want a lot of the the time. Like not, you know, um, it just depends, obviously sometimes people are really out for blood, but like sometimes stuff is a little more accidental or a little More understandable in the, in the state wants the, you Know, death penalty, you And they're, they're locking people up forever. They're putting them in solitary confinement forever. And it's like, it, it also will be like the family's not getting anything out of that. That's horrible. So yeah.

0:45:14 Lydia: Things that you've done right yeah that's not real accountability for anything then yeah

0:45:48 Thomas: And it doesn't help anyone really like, so I, you Now that's a part of it too. I know this is real real pie in the sky, whatever thinking, but like if we had a more restorative system that didn't put us in this awful situation to begin with, where, where there's just no ability to like admit fault. And then that creates this like long time, long standing standoff. You know, it's just like, I think that feeds a lot of the dynamics that feeds, a lot the, um, I'm not, don't get me wrong. I'm not letting any anyone off the hook, but like it feeds the incentivizes the wrong things where it incentivizes this like smearing behavior, smearing the accusers. You know, it kind of sets that whole thing even more in motion than it would already be.

0:46:36 Thomas: Rather than us having some way to kind of atone for things, you know, as a society, like if somebody's done something wrong, to be able to atone for it in a way that doesn't open them up to our horrible legal system that could be way more punishing than it should be you know yeah

0:46:53 Lydia: And also it just naturally fortifies the patriarchy right because that that's what's in power and so if you have a system where like like you can't say hey you wronged me and let's work this out like let's figure out how to do this in an appropriate way for you to be you know accountable for your actions etc etc the patriarchy is not going to want to be confronted with anything like that so then they just dig in their heels more dig in their heels and then that creates the system that we're all dealing with now yeah

0:47:21 Thomas: Yeah it's all one reinforcing horrible thing obviously yeah it's just to say the least you know um but I I think what um yeah what really drove me nuts about this um so many things but very clearly I think that Rassakot was putting putting enough out there to signal to Graham that this is that like there's no there's just no fucking excuse. You know, like there's no excuse whatsoever for him to see that she was sharing that much.

0:47:53 Lydia: Yeah he'll read my name he'll red that the night that he should have drunk at my house and yeah and

0:47:56 Thomas: That was more than enough for like Rassacott. You know I think very sensibly. I mean she says she you know, she didn't want to be just kind of known as a rape victim and she'd you know her there's I'm sure there'S lots of motives, but many, some of which might be, for one, obviously not wanting to do, no, very few accusers want to do this. You know, they don't want to doing it. It's, it's often pulling teeth pretty much all the time to get accusers to, to speak publicly like this, because it sucks. Cause it's a horrible environment that they're put in, you know? And, and, and

0:48:33 Lydia: Again if they think they're the only one that they're going to be suffering alone and and isolated.

0:48:35 Thomas: That too. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that what she did made a lot of sense. Cause I'm just anticipating people upset about the timing or whatever. I don't know about when it comes to the New York Times. For her, I get it. Like, I, I get it, and I think her putting out enough to say, you know, well, he showed up, and, I'm declining to elaborate, that is such a fucking clear signal to this asshole. Hey, man, wanna, wanna call it?

0:49:09 Lydia: Yeah.

0:49:09 Thomas: You know, like, this is here, here it is, and And for him to instead be like, oh, cool. I got out, got away with it. You know, like for him to take that from it.

0:49:18 Lydia: That's what she remembers from that night. Good.

0:49:20 Thomas: Yeah. It's just it's fucking narcissistic, lying asshole behavior. Like it's just, it so seals it. And then that's the thing is we have this kind of collapse. We don't get all the information. So again, we had some interpretations. I still don't think he's a Nazi. I really don't. I think that if he were a Nazi, would have seen it in the Reddit comments that we had access to for 10 years or whatever, I don't think he is a Nazi.

0:49:48 Thomas: Yeah, he is a rapist. Yeah. Oh, gosh, that's another thing I wanted to, you know, I don't know if ask is the right word, but kind of pose and put out there. What's the deal with sexual assault being how they describe this? Like, what is the somebody tell me the journalistic standard for that? Like are you not allowed to like I don't even get it because he raped her like this is a this this is a rape. And she even part, my first thought was like, Oh, maybe she didn't call it that. So I could see, I could See journalistic outlets not wanting to call something rape at the victim didn't, but then there are plenty of times like, and especially the most depressing polling you'll look at where it's like, you know, the, the percentage of women who will say they've been raped versus the percentage Of women who Will say stuff has happened to them. That's definitely rape, but not with that word. The difference there is just really sad. It's really really fucking sad like first like how how much our patriarchal bullshit society

0:49:47 Lydia: It's just a rapist. Yeah yeah uh -huh

0:50:43 Thomas: Has made women not want to even be willing to say they've been raped

0:50:44 Lydia: To use that word. Yeah no a hundred percent and it could be something where because their allegations maybe from like a legal perspective it's better for Politico to say sexual assault because from what they're hearing from Rassacott there was non -consensual activity and then there they don't have to say that oh 100% the non -consensual Activity was the penetration they could kind of say it was non consensual it was sexual assault and you know rape is a form of sexual assault. And so it kind of like maybe it protects them more might be like a legal hat sort of thing going on.

0:51:15 Thomas: There must be something yeah because I just I don't I mean uh what I started to say was it she said it it was in the the therapist stuff yeah essay slash rape like if she's saying it I mean I feel like you can at at least say alleged to have raped her. Like, I don't, it's, it's interesting.

0:51:25 Lydia: Message to the therapist. Yeah. Yeah.

0:51:36 Thomas: I don't, I don't know, you know, cause the title was woman who dated Graham Platner says he sexually assaulted her. I get, I, I Don'T know. I Don't know what the, I just am. I'm, I'm baffled by how we do that. Or I say we like how journalists do that. I DON't, IDon't just, can't you call it what it is like this is well. And then to say nothing of the stupid fucking algorithms where you have to to now like censor the word rape because then, yeah, it's just so, what are we, what are we doing?

0:52:01 Lydia: Or call it grape because we're a society. Yeah we're you know it's 2026.

0:52:06 Thomas: What are we going? No, I just, yeah.

0:52:07 Lydia: What's going on.

0:52:08 Thomas: It's like it, but in a real way, like we need like real, like left -wing Tucker Carlson. What are, what're we doing here? Like, what is, what's, what'S the point of that? Like whose decision is that? And that's just enforced on us by the fucking tech overlords, by the way. Like I didn't vote for that. I don't have any, like, we have no recourse, no recourse over that. Tech fucking probably broey piece of shit overlords have decided yeah

0:52:31 Lydia: Who many of them probably have engaged in that behavior or

0:52:34 Thomas: Yeah have decided that people have to say grape otherwise it'll be down like

0:52:40 Lydia: No one gets to see any of your material.

0:52:41 Thomas: It's just what the fuck is this world um see was there we didn't finish the article yeah

0:52:50 Lydia: I think we should, because I think it ties in the Eric Swalwell stuff, too.

0:52:52 Thomas: There's not much left yeah yeah

0:52:54 Lydia: And I think that's important. So a spokesperson for The Times declined to comment, of course. After the publication of The Times report, Rassacott connected with Cheyenne Hunt, a progressive Democratic lawyer who founded the nonprofit Reckoning Action, which launched earlier this year to fight misogyny. Hunt, who had endorsed Plattner last fall but renounced her support for him after the Times article, previously supported women who came forward with assault allegations against former Representative Eric Swalwell earlier this year, prompting him to drop out of the California gubernatorial primary and resign from Congress. So we talked about her a bit that it was her and Mrs. Frazzell kind of connected, you know, in a social media sense to help connect women who were all coming out accusing Eric Swolwell, connect them with each other and help them realize like Like, you're not the only person. And make some moves there. NBC News previously reported that Hunt was working with multiple women who had past relationships with Plattner. Hunt connected Politico to Rassacott. Reckoning Action, and this is a quote from Hunt, Reckonic Action exists to confront misogyny in American life in all forms and manifestations, including in bad actors being elected to positions of power, Hunt said. We became aware of allegations before ever being connected with Jenny. Allegations. And have

0:54:07 Lydia: Been in contact with multiple women with really troubling allegations, and it just became clear that this is someone who's not fit to hold public office. Where there's one, there are likely to be many. Okay, that's the lesson from this. After the Times report last month, Plattner had said that allegations of physical misconduct were, quote, simply not true, and his allies seized on Fifield's conservative political affiliations to suggest that her allegations against him in the Times article were motivated by politics. On MS Now last month after the New York Times report, Plattner denied claims that he had physically mistreated women. Quote, anything alleging physicality, anything alleging that I knew what my tattoo was, these are the statements of somebody who's politically motivated, he told MS Now, alluding to unrelated allegations about a tattoo resembling a Nazi symbol. Plattner had the tattoo resembling a Nazi symbol covered up last fall and said he had not known what the symbol meant. Rassikot said she was bothered by Plattner's public denial that he Had been physical towards women. Quote I know that he is capable of putting putting his hands on women, she said, so I don't believe that to be the truth.

0:54:15 Thomas: Fair fair yeah oh boy I mean not not for nothing rassicot does not have the same story about the tattoo even though it's from the same time period that five field does like I I kind of feel like that was a bit of bullshit by five field I'm not saying for sure they never knew what it was I don't know I think you know I I think I stand by that like I he He probably knew earlier, but I don't, I don'T think he would have casually just said, oh, my, you know, tone comp or whatever.

0:55:33 Thomas: Like that just seemed, I don't believe that. I don't know. And again, this is someone in that same time period who I'm sure if that were, if she had witnessed that, I can't imagine why she would not be backing Fifield on that, you know, like, especially at this point, but she's not. So I, I mean, I still kind of see that how I see it. But so, yeah, I mean, there are people who have been saying that that Plattner was disqualified in a Nazi from the get go because of this tattoo. And I think they were wrong to say that then. And I still stand by that. They were wrong To say that, then. And I don't think that even like you could say there might be some, you know, overlap in in the causality there, I guess. But I don't I don't think that I don´t think. We should, I don't think I would, I would change anything going back because I don't think we can live in a world where we say, hey, someone who says they got a tattoo when they're in their twenties and there's not really any counter evidence and they also took their shirt off at their, you know, whatever, their relatives, like, wedding featuring plenty of Jewish people, like, I don't think we can say, yeah, I bet that guy raped someone.

0:56:46 Thomas: Like, it's just not how, you know? Like, people are commenting that, you know, on some of my stuff. Oh, well, I should have have known you should have known because the tattoo no sorry that's not right they are and I'd like there there could be some overlap but not in a way of course oh yeah of course that that for sure and you have no disagreement from from the get -go I have said yeah I wish there was a female candidate uh I wish that we as and by that I mean I wish voters um elected female candidates and and had more confidence in female candidates 100 it would solve virtually all these problems you know it wouldn't solve you know we've seen some uh some women in office be corrupt we've seen that a little bit you know especially on the right especially

0:56:56 Lydia: Those are distinct acts. Well, especially because of men, right? Like that's the overlap is because he's a man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:57:29 Thomas: In maga town so yeah it's not like it would be a hundred percent success right there people are people it's gonna be close to zero there was that fucking weird thing and again in the trump administration again it's hard because maga really throws it off you know if you if you say just uh like women on the left I'm nothing nothing comes to mind. I can't, I'm trying to think, nothing comes to mind, but geez, that weird secretary of whatever that was. And again, even that was like, she was like almost recruiting people for her husband and her dad, whatever that

0:57:29 Lydia: But I'd say sexual assault allegations are going to be close. Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh,

0:58:03 Thomas: Was. Remember that thing?

0:58:04 Lydia: Yeah.

0:58:04 Thomas: God, we don't have time to get into it. But anyway, point is, all that is to say, yes, no, no disagreement. And I said that then, like no disagreement. If you elected women, if we elected women in, in primaries, uh, we would avoid all this. They're virtually all of it. So absolutely no argument there, but I don't really, yeah, I don'T blame the people who, uh. Claim to have been right from, from the day one moment of information that they had about the tattoo. Fine. You, I mean, whatever, I get it. You're going to claim that. Um, but I, you know, it's like the old philosophy thing. Knowledge is justified. True belief. I don't think you had a justified true belief there there personally, in my opinion. But whatever. I guess I could be wrong on that. I think that there's a lot to learn here. I'll have to go back and see if there's anything else I need to make sure I reckon with that I said. But one thing I did say was, I'm remembering, I don't know if you remember in more detail, but I am a little bit surprised because of how... I'm surprised that

0:59:13 Thomas: I'm curious what other accusations there might be because I guess it surprised maybe this is another thing I need to adjust maybe um because where there's one obviously there's tons I'm not I think there probably are but one of the things that I thought was tilting me toward like maybe there isn't more is or and then maybe there isn'T more there there at the time based on the previous information was why haven't we heard from more people? Like they've had a lot of time and a lot of energy toward wanting to, you know, wanting to do this. Like there's been a lot of focus on and scrutiny for Graham Plattner. I was surprised that in all the time that that, you Know, the months and maybe more than months that this has been going on that there hadn't been more people who surface, but maybe the answer is that it's just really hard to get anyone to go on record. I guess

1:00:08 Lydia: Yeah, well, it's so it sounds like there have been people surfacing. It's just behind the scenes and working with Cheyenne Hunt specifically in her organization. And I don't know exactly what comes of that, you know, because now we're talking about a whole timing thing, right? Like if he doesn't withdraw, the deadline is next Monday, 5 p .m. next Monday. Sunday, June 13th.

1:00:27 Thomas: Yeah and he will he should and I think will I don't think there's any going forward from this I mean he's he's fortunately I was bracing for like are we gonna have to deal with you know people sticking by him on the left I haven't seen any of that I think again we're not fucking we're far from perfect yeah like we are the left is far from imperfect. Even honestly, that sort of like, quote unquote, dirtbag left, like obviously I have plenty of complaints, but we are fundamentally different than the right in that this is too far and everyone is saying it's too far. And I at least we can hold on to that. We don't have much these days, folks, but like at least we can be a part of the side that is like, no.

1:00:45 Lydia: Like people dropping Eric Swalwell, right? Like it should be the same thing.

1:01:10 Lydia: Yeah, he needs to swallow his pride, drop out now, and then give the party the best chance that they have to get somebody else on the ballot.

1:01:16 Thomas: And maybe another lesson for me, I'm trying again, I'M trying to always learn to be more correct on stuff maybe another lesson because in the back of my mind part of and maybe even the front of my maybe I even said this part of my reasoning is that like who could be such a fucking asshole that they would know that there's more out there and still carry on like he was like that like I still just can't believe it and I need to realize that actually there are plenty of people again it could be a man problem that are just that fucking narcissistic and delusional because that's just yeah

1:01:56 Lydia: Delusional, I think, is a big piece of it. I think it's really, really easy to protect yourself and self being like like your sense of self, right, by rewriting reality or, you know, and he was very drunk. And so like he might not have explicit memories of that night. He just has someone telling him, hey, you hurt me in this way.

1:02:08 Thomas: It was non -consensual yeah

1:02:18 Lydia: Right. And then not being willing to accept that.

1:02:18 Thomas: He he fucking look I don't know about being blackout drunk I don't get it I feel like that's a something it seems like it's something some people have or don't like like you know we've known someone who's blackout drunk it's it's disturbing um it's definitely nothing that I can like no matter how drunk I've ever gotten I don't like I genuinely it truly feels like a difference in people like I don'T that doesn't happen to me like I if I'm that drunk I'm not moving anymore you know what I mean like there's just but there's a I guess physiologically I feel like there's some people who can who get to that blackout level where they truly you know they like I'm NOT this is not to excuse anything They truly are out of character. Like we've, we had a friend who was like, you know, uh, was not drinking all the time and would notice like, oh, he has a previous problem with alcoholism. And then the one time he did drink around, like, we're just at the same thing. It wasn't like we weren't involved or anything, but all of a sudden he's doing, he's saying shit that was like dear fucking God, like this is so out of character. I don't, it's startling. I don't understand it. Um, and all the same though, I, I struggle, I struggle to believe that he did all that sick, like was able to have sex to completion, but then wouldn't know the next day. Like, I'm sorry, physiologically, you know, you know, that happened. There's, there's no chance you don't know that happened.

1:03:47 Thomas: Right.

1:03:48 Lydia: Good point.

1:03:48 Thomas: I mean, am I wrong? I don't.

1:03:49 Lydia: No, good point. I don't have those body parts. And so I guess it would be tricky for me to know, like from experience. But yeah, that does make sense.

1:03:58 Thomas: Yeah. It's man. What an an asshole. So another lesson for me, I guess there are people that are that fucking, because here's the other thing. And it's not as though I think it's because people, because it's not as I think, it's, because men are better than they are. It's because I, I think that like, okay, well, even an asshole narcissist would want to protect themselves. Like, you know, they would want protect their reputation by realizing, oh, well this person has clearly signaled, they're maybe going to tell the story. So if I get out now, I get to still be Graham Plattner guy who maybe people will think, oh, he got a raw deal, you know? Like, so, so it's not that I think that men are great or anything or better. It's that I Think they're like, wouldn't, wouldn't even a narcissist want to protect themselves better? Like I just, that's what I truly don't, I guess the delusional part comes in there. Like when you're that level of narcissist, This is apparently you're able to and we've seen this rewrite the truth to be what you want it to be. And I guess I always got to remember that. But it's also something that you can't just accuse everyone of that, you know, and you can'T just think of everyone as being that way because it's it's a really shitty thing to think. So it's a tough balance. And, you know, I think to draw to a close, you know, I want to be open all along the way and accountable all along the way to my reasoning here. And you know I think I think we pretty much stand by everything, you know, like everything we thought at the time with the evidence we had. I don't know, you know, maybe maybe I would have done stuff a little differently differently probably, but yeah, I mean, this just sucks. Fuck this guy. Oh, I'm glad you brought up the part. Like he has a certain amount of time to drop out.

1:05:42 Thomas: And then the, uh, yeah, was it the state party?

1:05:46 Lydia: The state party has a committee and they can put together a nominate a new candidate. They have two weeks after he withdraws by the 13th. So that by the 27th, they're allowed to put somebody else's name on the ballot. But obviously, if he withdrawS before then, then we might know, you know, who's going to be stepping in. Otherwise, otherwise, we'd be looking at a writing campaign, which is gonna be a lot trickier to do. So we don't want to do that.

1:06:07 Thomas: You don't want to do that. He's, he's got to

1:06:09 Lydia: He needs to step down.

1:06:09 Thomas: Leave. He has no future. He is, he will step down. I mean he will even Swalwell, even, you know, like you get to a point where there's, there's no winning. He Has no future he all like at this point, all he, all you can look look forward to is losing horribly and being a piece of shit and everyone hating him. There's nothing. So I think he will drop out. I, I, 98%. I mean, I guess there's, maybe there are whole new levels of delusion, but again, even, even Swalwell dropped out.

1:06:37 Thomas: Like there comes a point where they just, even in a narcissist, idiot, a liar, delusional person can't, can't make up stuff in their mind anymore.

1:06:37 Lydia: Especially if Cheyenne Hunt indicating in that political article at the end that they've been talking to a lot more women with a lot more allegations. Like if he drags his feet, I imagine that that stuff would be going public.

1:06:57 Thomas: And I, man, who's the candidate going to be like, Like, how is that going to work in the in the way that well, and all these fucking battles. But among the left that are happening, it's just like, great, another opportunity for like more of that, more people to feel like they got screwed over one way or the other. And either the progressives to feel the establishment are fucking them or vice versa. You know, I don't I don'T know the status of the main party. I'm just speaking from a, you know, like kind of a spot of ignorance there. So I imagine it's probably going to be someone more mainstream, which I think a lot of people will feel really upset about. And I won't really blame them, you know, like, but it's also all the while you have to vote for the most left candidate in whatever election. That's what I believe. You vote for the most left candidate. Um, and that might've been someone in the primary in the, in the general, it's going to be the person who's the Democrat just

1:07:00 Lydia: I don't know. Mainers chime in. Maybe you guys know somebody who's good out there. Yeah, right, right. Yeah

1:07:55 Thomas: Is because Collins is still, it doesn't matter. It's having a Trump supporting vote in Collins is not better for the world. It'S just not like, it'S just who, no matter who it is on the left, itS not going to be worse than that. So that's that's that's how I feel. All right. Well, I hope people you know, this is unedited. It feels like a mess, but I really wanted to get it out there. I'm open to taking any and all, you know criticisms or corrections if if if there's anything I said in the previous episodes that that I need to learn from I'm always open to that and I'm always trying to learn. So yeah, I think this is this this This fucking sucks. Fuck this guy. And hopefully we never

1:07:55 Lydia: Agreed. Yeah

1:08:38 Thomas: Have to hear about him again.

1:08:38 Lydia: Needs to go back to his oysters and just live his life doing that.

1:08:41 Thomas: What a fucking asshole. God, what an asshole. Oh, and a rapist.