LAM1014: Green Card

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:08 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Opening Arguments. I'm Thomas, and this is a special preview of our Lot Awful Movies 14 of the new era that watched the movie Green Card, and oh boy, oh boy. This is something we do for patrons at the $2 level and above. The whole thing is usually somewhere like two hours, but I want to make sure to give a nice big preview. And don't worry, this isn't just like a, you know, 10 minute teaser or anything like that.

Uh, I like giving everybody, you know, like an episode length so that even if you can't become a patron, you'll still enjoy it. I think, and it might be incomplete, but there's still a lot here for you. And if you do like it and maybe you want to go on patreon.com/law and get the rest, uh, then you can. So that's what we're doing here. We've got the first, you you know, 45 minutes of our lot awful movies.

14, like I said, is green card. This was contentious. This was, uh, arguments were had. Friendships were in Marriage is dissolved. No, not really. Pretty much just Matt that had bad opinions, was a fun one.

In addition to some nonsense (and by the way, these are, uh, explicit, because that's what we do over on Patreon), in addition to shenanigans and weirdness about the movie, there's also a bunch of law, a bunch of immigration law, of course. With a name like Green Card, you can imagine that the movie has something to do with that, and this was great for Matt. He got to talk about how the law used to be, how it is now, and that's why we love Lot Awful Movies so much, is because it's taking something fun and mixing it in with something really educational.

Thanks so much for listening. And thanks most of all to the patrons who make this happen. If you want to join them, and if you just want to get this entire thing, that's patreon.com/law at that $2 level and above. Right, we'll take a little break here and then you'll get to hear us talk about green card.

0:01:58 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Lot Awful Movies 14. We watched Green Card. The weirdest movie I've ever seen. I'm Thomas. That over there is Lydia. How you doing?

0:02:09 Lydia: Good. This is a weird movie.

0:02:12 Thomas: Weirdest fucking movie.

0:02:13 Lydia: Fitting because it's also like the weirdest freaking lead actor also. And we'll get into it. Gerard Depardieu. Weirdest guy.

0:02:19 Thomas: Yeah. Think that's a lot of why it was the weirdest movie. Was

0:02:25 Lydia: The only reason. There were other reasons, too, that you mentioned while we were watching it. But yeah. Weird movie.

0:02:25 Thomas: No. Yeah, it's true. There are some others. And real life attorney Matt Cameron. How you doin'?

0:02:33 Matt: Bonsoir, mes amis. That's about all I got.

0:02:36 Lydia: Right, that's what he calls her, all the time Shelly

0:02:37 Matt: He keeps saying it, yeah. That, I believe, means good evening, my friends.

0:02:41 Thomas: Okay. Okay.

0:02:42 Lydia: It's not evening where we are, so

0:02:44 Matt: Enough. I actually really liked this movie in a lot of ways, but it's also kind of my thing. There aren't that many movies about the marriage visa process.

0:02:48 Thomas: Are you talking about? Thing is bad movies?

0:02:56 Matt: No, this is a good movie.

0:02:57 Thomas: Incredibly bad movies.

0:02:59 Matt: We about to disagree on the quality of a movie?

0:02:57 Lydia: Can

0:03:02 Thomas: This is not a good movie. I don't know who hurt you, but this is not a bad movie.

0:03:03 Matt: It's a good nineties movie.

0:03:07 Lydia: The thing, though, it went, it won the Golden Globe for Best Comedy or Musical, and you know what? What movies it beat? On Dick Tracy, Ghost, Home Alone, and Pretty Woman, Woman. This movie's better than those movies.

0:03:07 Matt: The immigration system hurt me.

0:03:11 Thomas: No.

0:03:18 Matt: A year.

0:03:20 Thomas: Not really, I mean, that's not the most of my concern. Those movies aren't like amazing. I like a few of them, but it's really just the weirdest fucking thing I've ever seen in my life. You actually like this as a movie, Matt?

0:03:34 Matt: It were not about the thing that I do all day and there, I've never seen a movie that's really about the marriage visa process. I just was delighted that they, and we'll talk about it, but it is a fascinating period in American immigration while they're portraying. And it was really cool just to see kind of the way it played out, even though I know it's not totally realistic. More realistic than you might think. Honestly, I've just had such a shitty couple of weeks, just a silly rom-com, just watching Jared Depardieu.

0:03:40 Lydia: Yeah.

0:03:54 Thomas: Yeah. Wrong.

0:03:57 Lydia: Stakes.

0:03:57 Thomas: There's some explanation for this crazy opinion you have. I don't know what it is. Support you, but this is not a good movie, Matt, this is not even close to a good movie.

0:03:57 Lydia: Oh,

0:04:05 Matt: I'm going to it. This is the My Cousin Vinny of immigration movies so far.

0:04:10 Lydia: My God. Matt.

0:04:10 Thomas: I don't, you don't. I'm done with the recording.

0:04:11 Lydia: No.

0:04:13 Thomas: I'm not doing, I'm Not Doing.

0:04:13 Matt: That's more of a comment on immigration movies than anything else, but wow.

0:04:16 Thomas: That doesn't, that isn't anything. I am sorry. You can't just say things. Words have meanings, Matt. Words happen just because something is the only movie about something. It doesn't make it the good movie of that. It's the, this the Citizen Kane of immigration movie. Like, okay, I guess. It is also whatever the worst movie in history is, it's also that because there's only one of Sandra

0:04:36 Lydia: Oh,

0:04:37 Matt: There's two, and I did watch the first 15 minutes of The Proposal with Sandra Bullock and Ryan Reynolds. I watched the first 15 minutes on a plane just out of curiosity, and I didn't like it very much.

0:04:41 Lydia: Okay. Yes.

0:04:46 Thomas: Bullock and Ryan Reynolds. Oh, Wow.

0:04:47 Lydia: No.

0:04:48 Thomas: Wait, what is the age gap there? Are they the same age?

0:04:48 Matt: Yeah, they have to get married. It's actually less realistic than this movie, and I can tell you why later.

0:04:55 Lydia: They're not the same. Yeah.

0:04:56 Thomas: Wow.

0:04:56 Matt: I think she's kind of his boss, which makes it extra weird.

0:04:58 Lydia: He, he works for her, and then, yeah, I don't think I've actually ever seen the entire thing, but Betty White's in it. And I'm a big Betty White fan. So mean the decades of Betty White?

0:05:03 Thomas: Oh, remember that, like, year or two, those Betty White, for some reason, which

0:05:11 Matt: Oh, yeah.

0:05:12 Lydia: Yeah.

0:05:12 Thomas: I mean, there was specifically a year, it was probably around 2016, I want to say, or maybe a little after, where everyone was like, Betty White, just fucking Betty White. She was on everything for, like, a year, and then I think probably died shortly after.

0:05:25 Lydia: No, no. So, okay. Just because I looked this up earlier today when I was talking to my family about the Golden Girls, which I do on a regular basis. Golden girls, four of them, right? We lost our first Golden Girl, Estelle.

0:05:26 Thomas: Ah. Okay. This is, what are we doing? Here, no.

0:05:39 Lydia: This is important for very,

0:05:40 Thomas: It's not.

0:05:41 Lydia: Very quickly. 2008. Then we lost Bea Arthur, 2009. Then Then we lost Rue McClanahan, 2010. And then we lost Betty White, not 2011. 2021, baby. She lived to be 99 years old. So why I said decades. And now it's on the record books. You're welcome.

0:05:41 Thomas: Oh.

0:05:52 Thomas: All right, glad we did that anyway. Uh,

0:06:01 Lydia: I don't

0:06:01 Thomas: This was the worst movie I've ever seen, man. I don't, I don't know what you're talking about. This was, everything was wrong about it. Like, I used to think that Annie McDowell was okay until I saw this. I'm like, oh, actually, she's not a very good actor.

0:06:03 Matt: Wow.

0:06:12 Lydia: Know if it's her fault.

0:06:13 Thomas: It's not not her fault. There are those actors that can be good when there's a good director and can't when there is a bad director, and she's that. Rising above whatever is happening in the movie, apparently. I wouldn't have known. The worst music I've ever heard for a movie.

0:06:15 Lydia: Yeah, okay.

0:06:27 Lydia: Also, Hans Zimmer, Worst

0:06:32 Matt: It's Hans Zimmer plus Enya. There was a lot of Enya, which Enya... Yeah, most of what you're hearing his onion, uh

0:06:35 Lydia: Really? Really?

0:06:34 Thomas: There's Enya? It's not that the individual music is bad, although it kind of is. It's also the most inappropriate, like, every single scene has the wrong music. It It was confusing, like, there are times I'm like, "Oh, is there a murder gonna... oh no, they're in love. I don't... there's the end, like They're gonna get together or something maybe, and it's like murder music. I was like, "What? What movie do you think it is?" I don't... nobody knew what was happening anyway. Green Card, 1990.

0:06:47 Matt: I did notice that. Yeah." Yeah.

0:07:07 Lydia: And a half million dollar budget made 38 million. Pretty successful. Like I said, it won the Golden Globe for best comedy. Gerard Depardieu won for best actor in a comedy or musical up

0:07:09 Thomas: Okay. Not a bad investment, I guess. What? They just didn't have any others that year.

0:07:19 Lydia: Well, so he was up against Macaulay Culkin in Home Alone, Johnny Depp and Edward Scissorhands, Richard Gere in and Pretty Patrick

0:07:21 Matt: That's Amazing. Wow. Huh. He

0:07:25 Thomas: I hate Johnny Depp now, but like you got to give it to him for Edward Scissorhands.

0:07:28 Lydia: Swayze in Ghost. Yeah. Like Like, variety of a year for that category specifically.

0:07:30 Matt: Beat all of those

0:07:34 Thomas: Yeah. You can't get, well, okay. This is just the Golden Globe or whatever. So who cares? Oh, the Golden Globes, the one that's the international, oh, maybe that's it, we found it. So so I think it's a conspiracy. They're like, we've got a Frenchman in an American movie, he's the best. Isn't he so great? Yeah.

0:07:39 Lydia: Annie McDowell also was nominated for Best Actress, but she lost to Julia Roberts.

0:07:47 Matt: Isn't international film and television is Golden Globes. Yep, that's Right.

0:07:58 Lydia: Know, I think part of it, honestly, though, is because this movie came out right after Gerard Depardieu, like, his breakout American role, which was in Cyrano de Bergerac, and America kind of got this like one-two punch of Gerard Depardieu, like two very, very different roles, and I think that was really appealing to people. Yeah.

0:08:13 Thomas: Yeah. I don't think you, this movie works at all, unless you already have a fondness for whoever this weird looking dude is.

0:08:25 Lydia: I mean, he, he is the second highest grossing French actor ever. Two

0:08:28 Matt: Yeah.

0:08:29 Thomas: I can't name another one. So, oh,

0:08:31 Lydia: 200 credits to his name. Yeah.

0:08:33 Matt: Of the most disgusting rapists in the history of film.

0:08:34 Lydia: We'll talk about that.

0:08:35 Thomas: That, that came through that definitely came. I didn't know that, but he just was weird the whole time.

0:08:37 Matt: Yeah, that does come through. Yeah.

0:08:41 Thomas: He was weird and not in a charming way. None then I saw the director cause I I was like, oh, whoever did this sucks. And it was directed and written by, yeah. And so I think he's got good directing credits, but I don't know that he's written much that's good. So it might've been, maybe he shouldn't have, but I dunno, I don'T know if the writing's bad or it's just like the actors are so awkward. I can't decide. It's, I dunno.

0:08:43 Lydia: Yep.

0:08:48 Matt: No. Peter Weir. Good stuff.

0:09:05 Matt: I'm going to play some defense on this one, I'll tell you. But didn't love it, love it. But, yeah. It's good that we disagree once in a while on these movies. Usually we can land in the middle. But,

0:09:07 Thomas: Do your best, man. I mind hearing someone have wrong opinions. It doesn't offend me. It's more a curiosity than anything. I'm just like, how could you possibly?

0:09:17 Matt: Let's do it. It. I've got a lot of law on this one because this is my field, this is my thing, and I'm just excited to watch a movie about the thing I think about all day.

0:09:22 Thomas: Yeah. It's such a good pairing with the marriage interview we just did over on GG. And I guess I played on here as well.

0:09:30 Matt: Yeah, and this is a whole different kind of law even than what we were talking about in that, so plenty to talk about here.

0:09:39 Thomas: Right. Well, I guess we'll dig into this fucking weird ass movie.

0:09:42 Lydia: Yeah.

0:09:43 Matt: Bon appétit.

0:09:44 Lydia: Right. So we open on drumming.

0:09:46 Matt: Drums, so many drums.

0:09:49 Lydia: Up.

0:09:49 Thomas: Intense drumming.

0:09:50 Lydia: I have, I will, oh no, not a migraine. Oh, it was great.

0:09:51 Matt: Migraine, the movie.

0:09:54 Lydia: I wanted more drumming, more drumbing, please. Please.

0:09:54 Thomas: Was good drumming, yeah.

0:09:57 Lydia: But I think I think that I have a theory on this that I'll get to at a certain other point in the movie about why we're setting this up with drumming in particular. It's a young black man, or I guess a kid, actually.

0:09:56 Matt: It was great, yeah.

0:10:09 Thomas: Yeah, it looks...

0:10:10 Lydia: So this is actually a real he's

0:10:12 Thomas: You racist. You would have him tried as an adult too, I bet.

0:10:14 Lydia: He's a well -known street performer in New York. His name is Larry Wright for

0:10:17 Thomas: How old was he in this movie? If you know who he is, tell me. Me

0:10:21 Lydia: Or 15 when they filmed.

0:10:21 Thomas: Yeah. Exactly. Did he have a big gun? You racist? Yeah.

0:10:22 Lydia: Yeah, I know. I know and he's actually credited Larry Wright. The performer credited with being the first major drummer to use the five -gallon plastic buckets instead of a drum kit. Super, super well -known, very cool.

0:10:33 Thomas: Sounded Great.

0:10:33 Matt: That's a very New York thing. Sure. Yeah.

0:10:35 Lydia: Yeah, he's amazing. He still performs across New York with his wife as well. So if anyone is in New York and runs across Larry Wright, you can say that you saw him in Green Card. This kid's freaking killing it. I loved the beginning of this. I wanted just more drumming.

0:10:48 Matt: Me too. Yeah.

0:10:35 Thomas: He ruled. Huh. No one's in New York. Really. Okay. Okay, okay, but let's, but it's not, we're doing a disservice to Yeah.

0:10:51 Lydia: Yes. But I was confused. I was confused. It's

0:10:54 Thomas: We need to actually describe what happened. So what happens is the movie begins, and what's the Fairy for is just drumming. It's a close-up on the, on the Home Depot bucket or whatever, for a while, and says, "It says Green Card," and then drums and drums and drums. I'm just going to scroll through drums and drums. We it's been two minutes of non -stop drumming like this, But it also showed a close-up of the kid's face and him sweating.

0:11:00 Lydia: Just drumming. Yep. Yep. That's it take me to stomp Yes. He's working his ass off. Yeah.

0:11:24 Thomas: And you doing with that? Like, so much of this movie just violates basic, like, human logic, because if you, if you close that close-up on him for a minute, not to exaggerate, a full minute or a minute and a half-ish is just that, and it's like, what do we, what does this mean? What am I to take from this? Okay.

0:11:40 Lydia: I don't disagree. However, he, I mean, he did get credited for this movie, which I think is kind of a big deal, like as a 15-year-old kid. Um,

0:11:45 Thomas: That doesn't justify why he's in the movie. That's just like, well, for some weird reason we put you in the movie, so we got to give, give you credit. Uh,

0:11:51 Lydia: But I also, again, pin in this. I don't want to get ahead of it, but I do have a theory on why this happened. We get Andy McDowell. We see her at this little flower market that's right next to this kid drumming. Getting some flowers, loves what she's hearing, gives him a little tip. He deserved way more than she gave him. It it was not.

0:11:58 Thomas: Oh.

0:12:12 Thomas: It's 1990, that was like 700 dollars. Yeah. It

0:12:15 Lydia: It was, like, yeah.

0:12:15 Matt: See,

0:12:16 Thomas: Was, it was about 40 cents. But that today's money, you kidding me? You could buy a car with that. And they have to come up with a movie, like, "Well, we've gotten all we can out of that."

0:12:20 Lydia: Yeah. Then the drumming has to end, unfortunately. And yeah. Yeah.

0:12:30 Thomas: So weird. Yeah.

0:12:31 Matt: Me, the drumming is like, you're in New York City. This is a New Yorke City movie. That's what it told me. And

0:12:36 Lydia: It's like like a like a tone setting almost a

0:12:38 Matt: Yeah.

0:12:36 Thomas: Yeah. And I'm not, I won't do this with everything in the movie, but the way they have her looking at him is bizarre like she's just like focused, focused on him in a way with a, you say she likes it, but, but her expression is like almost kind of looks confused. Yeah.

0:12:43 Lydia: Yeah, yeah.

0:12:53 Lydia: Mean, that's her expression throughout most of the movie. So maybe.

0:12:54 Thomas: Yeah. She might just not be a good actress. Actually, as much as I, I just, I only know her from Groundhog Day, which I love dearly. Dearly love that movie. And It was weird. It was, it was sad to see her doing acting that was like not good. I don't know, know what that means.

0:12:56 Lydia: Yeah and

0:13:02 Matt: Me to me too. Yep.

0:13:07 Lydia: Also know her as Margaret Qualley's mom. She's great. Anyway.

0:13:13 Thomas: Who is that?

0:13:13 Matt: There's also a weird Groundhog Day, uh, coincidence, which I'll get to when we get to it.

0:13:16 Thomas: Yeah, I know. The Groundhog Phil.

0:13:18 Lydia: Right. So We follow Andy McDowell across the street to meet with her friend named Anton at this place called Africa Cafe.

0:13:25 Matt: Here we see the first of the federal crimes that are portrayed in this film before you see anything else. They're committing a conspiracy to defraud the United States,

0:13:30 Lydia: Yeah, turns out it's actually going to be her wedding day because Anton has a friend, George, played by Gerard Depardieu. And truly truly.

0:13:37 Thomas: Like Gerard Depard. Don't! But saving that one, guys. Is that good? Very

0:13:44 Lydia: But are going to get married so he can stay in the country beyond his tourist visa. So we cut over to the courthouse, and I guess they finished their civil ceremony. Maybe they had a kiss or something because George says to, her name is Bronte, by the way, Bronte Parrish, you were very good, and she says, so were you, and I'm guessing about the kiss. I don't know.

0:14:05 Thomas: I think it just means pretending to be married, to be getting married.

0:14:06 Lydia: Oh, pretending to be, like, interested in getting married? Okay. OK. Comes out with the marriage certificate from the courthouse and they say, you know, good luck with your life. Good luck with yours. And asks Anton, what happens next? And he says, that's it. You don't even have to see him again. That's the setup that

0:14:08 Thomas: Yeah.

0:14:20 Matt: Which is true.

0:14:21 Thomas: That's how it works, right, Matt?

0:14:22 Matt: Pause here. Of course, introducing myself as a 20 -year experienced immigration lawyer, has been working with marriage cases the whole time. And I did some fun research for this because I, of course, was six years old in 1986 when the Immigration Reform and Control Act passed, along with the Immigration Marriage Fraud Amendments. And this movie, I'm just going to situate this right now because I'll mention this a few times during the course of our recording.

This movie is situated in the years between 1986 and 1990, which are a very interesting time for immigration law and for marriage. 1986, there's the big Reagan reform you've probably heard about with the amnesty where they gave a lot of people residency.

And as part of that amnestry, they also passed the immigration marriage amendments, which for the first time, and this blew my mind because I didn't actually know this before I watched this movie and did the research, because I'm fully expecting this movie is going to get it it all wrong. And it was written by an Australian man who I'm sure had to deal with the immigration system in the US at some point. A line later where they say this, but there's a really cool in -universe explanation for why Anton would think, it's

0:14:24 Thomas: Boy.

0:15:18 Matt: True, why Anton would think that they could just go to the courthouse and get married to the city hall wherever they are. I think they're actually near 26 Federal Plaza, which is where the immigration building is that we'll see at the end of the movie. So that's a cool loop around. Would be because 1986, you could actually literally just get a marriage certificate, file it with the government, and get a green card without an interview or any real questions.

0:15:18 Lydia: It's no biggie. Yeah.

0:15:36 Lydia: Wow.

0:15:37 Matt: Was way too easy.

0:15:38 Thomas: I need to make America great again. This is... that's the way they gotta keep these people out. Yeah.

0:15:43 Matt: At the time, of course, which is the part of the Department of Justice that handles this before ICE, obviously before USCIS, INS estimated that about 30 % of all marriage cases were probably fraudulent. I've seen that that number was was almost certainly exaggerated and not really based on anything. So they convinced Congress when they were giving people a bunch of amnesties, they convinced congress to also crack down on marriage fraud and employment fraud, basically, and undocumented labor.

Talk as we go about what the IRCA and the immigration marriage amendments did. But the fact is, I think it's pretty cool that just you think about this as an artifact, as I love just sort of thinking about the ways that law is explained by movies and by TV, it's a big subject here on on this regular recurring feature. Sometimes it's explained very badly. And sometimes it just sort of part of the ambient water that the movie is swimming in. And that's what's going on here.

In the universe of this movie, Anton, a French guy, has been around a little while. And I'm sure he knew some other French people that went and got a marriage certificate and got their green

0:16:34 Lydia: Yeah.

0:16:35 Matt: Cards. So he tells them specifically, you don't have to see each other again. And course, I laughed out loud because we all know that's not true. You got to live together. You got to show joint residency. You've got to go to an interview. But he may not have known that the law had changed. And there's going to be a speech later on about how the law has changed, you might remember.

0:16:46 Lydia: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:16:49 Matt: Could play the clip actually at 3 .30.

0:16:41 Thomas: Yeah. Oh,

0:16:52 Clip: "Here's Anton, that's a copy for you, Bronte. I never forget Africa, Africa." "Yes, the coffee shop, right? Okay. So, uh, good luck with your life." "And good luck." "As you're composing your music, oh yes, all right, yes, okay."

0:17:14 Thomas: That's how it works. Oh, Yeah, that's weird. Why would that be that reaction? Sure.

0:17:28 Matt: Here it comes.

0:17:30 Clip: "So what happens next? That's it. You don't have to see him again." All

0:17:35 Matt: I just thought that was funny. So that's the clip. Yeah, that's the end.

0:17:36 Lydia: Then the scene ends. Yeah yeah. Because it's just nothing.

0:17:36 Thomas: Yeah. So Said, I'm on the record, I like that old movies used used to not explain everything. However, I feel like this one went a little too far the other way because, uh, it makes no sense. Like none of this makes any sense. She I get, they're going to justify it. Like she wants an apartment. So that's why she's doing it. You know, in order to get this awesome apartment that she has to be married. Okay. Fine. You know? I don't know why this, like, why would you do this rather than I have a boyfriend, let's pretend we're married. You Know? Like, why wouldn't you, why not that? Or I ha you know, like I have any, And a friend, let's pretend. Instead, I'm going to commit a federal crime or two to get this apartment. And then when she does that, she also is so fucking weird about it. It's like she did it. But then every single interaction after that is the weirdest, most awkward interaction with everyone. It's Like, wouldn't you either either tell people or don't either come up with a story or don'T? But she does none of that.

0:17:43 Matt: Mm-hmm. True. Yeah.

0:17:47 Lydia: The other way.

0:18:32 Matt: Well, if you don't think you're gonna have to live together or see each other again, then maybe you don'T think you have to. I know what you're saying, though, because it is really weird the way she just continues to pretend he doesn't exist and doesn't want to introduce him to anybody.

0:18:32 Lydia: Don't

0:18:36 Thomas: Yeah, Like the first thing, or close to after this. Okay. Well, I think it's like the next thing. Go ahead.

0:18:43 Lydia: Get ahead. Yeah yeah. Yeah So why don't we talk about her apartment? A, an HOA, condo association, something like that, but then they're basically other residents are evaluating whether or not they're okay with her moving into this apartment that has a huge greenhouse as part of it and tons of plants. And she is so well suited for this because she's a horticulturist. With this gardening group called the Green Gorillas, which we'll talk about later, I'm sure. And then she also works the city parks department that comes up. And concern is that want to make sure that this apartment is well cared for. And they think that a a stable married couple is the best fit.

0:18:46 Thomas: Yeah.

0:19:02 Thomas: What the hell? Sure.

0:19:26 Thomas: Yeah.

0:19:26 Lydia: Her experience as a horticulturist helps. And then she, you know, lies and says that she's married. She provides the marriage certificate so they could look at that. And she, like, goes on to further try and prove herself with her knowledge about plants by just naming a bunch of things, like, and flowers and stuff.

0:19:44 Thomas: Well, She, yeah, she's like, oh, the, you know, she says all the plants that are in there and, like, oh, that needs watering and that needs blah blah. She uses all this Yeah.

0:19:50 Lydia: That's root bound and etc. etc. And

0:19:52 Matt: Know, it's funny though, from the vantage of 2026, as I'm watching this whole interview with the board to get the apartment, they don't seem concerned about the fact that she is a city employee who's a horticulturist who volunteers. She doesn't make any money, but it's New York in 1990.

0:20:02 Thomas: I Yeah. This apartment would be 11

0:20:04 Matt: So yes.

0:20:04 Lydia: Incredible.

0:20:04 Thomas: Billion dollars a month. The

0:20:06 Matt: Yes, exactly. It said, like, a museum wing.

0:20:07 Lydia: That was a note I wrote down where I was like, can you imagine this in New York City with the job and the volunteer work that she, how, how

0:20:07 Matt: Yeah.

0:20:16 Thomas: Board's like, do you have a pedophile island or something? Uh, how are you affording this? No.

0:20:19 Matt: Yeah, totally. Uh,

0:20:20 Lydia: Crazy. And then it's not like her parents are, you super wealthy or anything like that. Did get it despite all of their racism that they shared during that interview.

0:20:24 Thomas: Could we assume she got a massive payout for doing the fake marriage, maybe?

0:20:30 Matt: Very concerned. That

0:20:34 Lydia: Yeah, maybe, perhaps. Concerned because she says her husband is in Africa and that's why he's not there right now. And they are very very concerned that he might be black.

0:20:44 Thomas: And that all seems realistic to me. Yeah.

0:20:46 Matt: Checks out. Uh, Thing that have to ask you guys, notice this because there is a tiny little detail that completely changes the legal nature of the movie and everything that's going to come after. Did you notice on the marriage certificate that she forges 1980 instead of 1990? 1990.

0:20:46 Lydia: Yeah, very uncomfortable.

0:20:47 Thomas: No.

0:21:01 Lydia: Way. I did not know that.

0:21:02 Thomas: Forges it.

0:21:02 Matt: Yes. She's very carefully written because she doesn't want to make it look like she got married yesterday. So

0:21:07 Lydia: Right.

0:21:08 Thomas: Oh, but just for the board for the apartment. Oh.

0:21:10 Matt: Well, I don't know. This is my question because if they, on her copy, but if they did it on his copy as well, we're talking about a whole bunch of other problems, obviously.

0:21:11 Lydia: On her certified copy. Yikes.

0:21:18 Matt: But here's the thing. The really funny thing is that they got married on February 2nd, 1980, Groundhog Day. I just thought that was funny.

0:21:24 Thomas: That's Funny. Oh, I thought you're just gonna talk about how the guy's name is Phil and she keeps saying Phil over and over Phil like the groundhog Phil.

0:21:29 Lydia: Funny.

0:21:27 Matt: Oh yeah, that is funny too. Yeah. But this is three years before Groundhog Day, so it has to be a coincidence.

0:21:34 Thomas: Yeah.

0:21:33 Lydia: Weird. Oh my god. Or Or Groundhog Day's reel and premise

0:21:38 Thomas: Day. Groundhog Day is real. Yeah I think it is. Yeah.

0:21:42 Lydia: Of the movie.

0:21:43 Thomas: Okay, I thought you were doing a "me with holidays" like... yeah, no, I think that is one of the real ones. I'm not a hundred percent.

0:21:48 Matt: I've lived for a few of them. I don't know. I'm But obsessed with the forged marriage certificate detail. You can pause it on the freeze frame. You can save yourself.

0:21:49 Thomas: Yeah yeah that's interesting.

0:21:56 Matt: Is a state crime. Just to mix it up a little bit, she's committing like seven years worth of state crimes, 14

0:21:50 Lydia: Crazy. Oh,

0:21:59 Thomas: Yeah well you want to spice it up you know.

0:22:01 Matt: Years. My is that there are 39 years total in prison available to both of them from everything they do here. Yeah, if they were to do these things, I mean, they would never be charged. That's 14 years in state prison and 25 years in federal if this was all to go consecutive and state and federal were both to prosecute, which they wouldn't. But we're talking about second secondary forgery under PL 170.10, which is falsification of any public record with intended to fraud, which she's doing, obviously, to get the apartment, possession of a forged instrument, and tampering with public records, which is obviously what she's done here by drawing an eight.

0:22:06 Thomas: Each or both or okay

0:22:07 Lydia: My God. Right. McDowell. Get it together, girl.

0:22:34 Matt: I just thought it was funny. And also Mrs. Bird, big fan. I love this actress.

0:22:37 Lydia: She's crazy.

0:22:38 Matt: I want more of her.

0:22:36 Thomas: Oh

0:22:38 Lydia: Crazy that that old lady is Nuts, and she continues to be nuts throughout the rest of the film too, of course, uh, this next scene we experience Annie McDowell and her gardening. We meet her lover, her gardening lover, Phil, um, who's awkward and weird.

0:22:40 Thomas: Oh, the old racist. Yeah.

0:22:41 Matt: She's great, yeah. Good stuff from

0:22:53 Thomas: God. Yeah, they have to make him the worst. So he's a vegetarian. Wouldn't you know it?

0:22:55 Lydia: Um, exactly, and so despicable of course. Um, you know what? He has an in with topsoil, and so she gets really excited about that, that from Burger King.

0:22:59 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah from

0:23:08 Matt: Burger King because

0:23:09 Thomas: Berg. Oh, is that what it said? Oh, my

0:23:10 Lydia: He's chanting Burger King as he's standing on top of the topsoil.

0:23:11 Thomas: God.

0:23:14 Matt: It's some from marketing thing where they set up like a farm or something in the middle of New York, I don't know, they explain it in the movie, but

0:23:17 Thomas: Oh wow.

0:23:20 Lydia: They're in these underprivileged neighborhoods trying to build community gardens for poor kids and folks and stuff. And they have a bunch of topsoils coming in. And a group of those folks, after they've spent their time working very hard, doing, I think, some great work, work, go to a restaurant after a long day.

0:23:37 Thomas: Yeah this is peak white savior culture. We're coming into the peak white Savior popular culture thing

0:23:41 Matt: Yeah, yeah.

0:23:37 Lydia: Yeah. Yes. And wouldn't you know it, the restaurant that they go to to enjoy themselves after a long day, her husband that she was bound to never see again is their waiter. Vegetarian.

0:23:43 Matt: Yeah,

0:23:54 Thomas: It's a French restaurant. Why did you go to a French Restaurant? Not because of her but but because of the vegetarians, why would you ever go in 1990? Like even now I I'm afraid to go to a French restaurant. Like I wouldn't even bother, but 1990 they'll kill you. You'll be killed.

0:23:59 Lydia: That's a hard cuisine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:24:00 Matt: What Are you gonna eat That's So true. Submit. Vegan foie gras, please.

0:24:10 Thomas: Yeah.

0:24:10 Matt: Yeah.

0:24:11 Lydia: And I'm sorry, like, because Phil also is like, he doesn't want oil, he doesn't want salt, and then, yeah, why are you at a French restaurant? Great point. Like, it doesn't make any sense.

0:24:11 Matt: Yeah,

0:24:15 Thomas: Yeah, they have to make them super annoying.

0:24:20 Matt: We also observe, uh, and I'm just gonna tick these off as we go, it's one one of my favorite things to do when you watch these, got another immigration violation right on screen. He's unlawfully employed on his tourist visa. Obviously shouldn't be doing that. That is 8 U .S .C. 1255 C. That is a bar to all future residency unless you do it through family, which of course he's going to do.

0:24:37 Thomas: Oh, so wait, what if if he got married, he can't, he Can't just work because of that.

0:24:41 Matt: No, that excuses that. He hasn't, but he hasn't. He is going through the process, but I'm just saying if he, yeah, yeah, but It will be forgiven. But I'm just saying, in terms of all the immigration and civil and criminal violations we're seeing on, on screen, that is one of them.

0:24:44 Thomas: They're married. Oh you're saying it's not just getting married. He has to get married and then get that green card or whatever. Okay. Yep. Yep. Yep. Sure. That's one of them. Tally it up. But is the start of no one knows how to human because she sees him and he's the waiter.

0:24:58 Lydia: Yes. She can't be normal.

0:25:01 Thomas: Yeah. And she, he's a waiter and she tries to hide in her like hood or something. Like she pulls down something or a hat or something yeah.

0:24:54 Matt: Um, Yeah. Right. It

0:25:01 Lydia: She can't be normal!

0:25:09 Thomas: And it's like, that's not going to work. Plus they already made eye contact and like he her and it's a bunch of that weird stuff where you're like, what is your plan? Like, how would that do anything, how would it help? Yeah.

0:25:08 Matt: The menu up and Right.

0:25:13 Lydia: Yeah. Him like a stranger and a waiter. Like there's no reason you have to be weird about it.

0:25:23 Thomas: Yeah. He's also invested in not blowing this whole thing, but the movie, and I don't know if it's just because, again, this guy is just so fucking weird. Everything he does is weird. I get the movie is like, nah, he's a wild card, man. He might just blow the whole thing for no reason. That's what that gives you, the feel of, you know, and and she's so awkward. If she had just been like, oh, hi, you know, it's, uh, yes, I'll have the fucking whatever, whatever meat. It's the, I don't eat meat either, so I don't know why I'm here. Yeah.

0:25:28 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah, mm -hmm. Yeah, especially because they have a, like, they have mutual friend, so she could be like, oh, nice to see you again. And then if people are like, like, who is that? She could be like, oh, it's, you know, a friend of my friends kind of thing. We, you know, met last week. But that's it.

0:25:57 Thomas: Yeah.

0:26:07 Matt: I thought

0:26:06 Thomas: Everything every choice she makes is the worst, most awkward choice at all times.

0:26:11 Lydia: Yeah. And he ends the scene by, as he's taking their orders, and he gets to Andy McDowell, and he says, and mademoiselle, or should I say madame?

0:26:11 Thomas: Yeah.

0:26:21 Matt: That was very charming, actually. I

0:26:22 Lydia: Thought it was kind of cute, too, if

0:26:23 Thomas: I think it was meant to be charming if it wasn't the weirdest guy who I'm glad you said is rapy, because now that fits.

0:26:26 Lydia: It was somebody else saying it. Is. I think we're going to, we got to save it all till the end, but

0:26:30 Matt: Yeah. Sadly, yeah. Yes.

0:26:33 Thomas: Somebody was charming. I actually do think a lot, if this movie had good actors or something, it might have worked. There is stuff that's kind of charming, but it just doesn't work. I will say the one time I will defend him though is his response to this fucking douche bag that they're making. And again, I am a vegetarian and I hate this character because they have to make him bad because he's a vegetarian.

0:26:44 Lydia: Mm-hmm.

0:26:53 Matt: Right. Yeah.

0:26:55 Thomas: But the in 1990 has the proper reaction. He's like, I don't eat meat. Oh, ok, I guess fish then. No, I don't eat meat. Fish is meat. I don't even, okay. So nothing like, yeah, get the fuck out of here. What are you doing here? Go to a different place.

0:27:05 Matt: Yeah.

0:27:10 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah.

0:27:14 Matt: Counterpoint, very quickly, I completely agree. Gerard de Perdue is, I went looking, back in the 70s he was actually kind, kind of ruggedly handsome, but ever since then he's been an absolute Neanderthal. And I am, I actually, I'm sorry, I shouldn't use that word.

0:27:21 Thomas: Seventies. How old is he?

0:27:26 Matt: I am more Neanderthaal than you are by genetically. I don't know if we've established this yet, but

0:27:25 Lydia: He's, he's pretty old.

0:27:30 Thomas: Don't, you don't know. You don't know me.

0:27:31 Lydia: Yeah, how do you know that, Matt?

0:27:32 Matt: You done your 23andMe?

0:27:34 Thomas: I have, but I don't remember.

0:27:35 Lydia: Think you turned it in, but I don't know if you ever looked at it.

0:27:37 Thomas: No, I did. I, I have.

0:27:38 Matt: You should

0:27:38 Lydia: Oh, you did?

0:27:38 Matt: Check it out because one of the things it tells you is how Neandertheal you are. And I'm 99 % more Neandertaal than anybody else on earth.

0:27:45 Lydia: What?

0:27:39 Thomas: I've got some Neanderthal. Yeah. Or you're in, well, I don't think that's what that means. You're in the 99th percentile.

0:27:48 Matt: Percentile.

0:27:49 Thomas: Yeah.

0:27:49 Matt: Yes. Of Neandertherals.

0:27:51 Lydia: Oh, math.

0:27:51 Thomas: Oh, Matt and his numbers. That could mean that you are are 1 .1 % and the rest of the world is 1 .08 % is what that could mean.

0:27:52 Matt: A Who's who of Neanderthals? Yeah, of course.

0:27:59 Thomas: So that doesn't, I'm just, no, you say, yeah, of course, Matt, but you just said you're 99 times more Neanderthal than every, that's also not, that's Also not. I'm telling you, that just means you're more Neandertal than 99 % of people, but that could Mean you're like 0 .1 more. You know what I mean?

0:28:00 Matt: I mean, there haven't been Neandertherals in a while. No, no, I said 90 % more than other... Well, whatever. Okay, fine, yes. See, you're just perpetuating the terrible stereotypes of Neandertals being bad with numbers. This is awful.

0:28:18 Lydia: Wow, wow.

0:28:19 Thomas: Yeah, no, You are, you need to get better with numbers, Matt. Otherwise you're going to set your people back so you're gonna set your people back a lot. Stop, stop fitting this stereotype. Oh, holy shit.

0:28:22 Lydia: Oh my god, We're going to get canceled.

0:28:22 Matt: I think we're a protected class. Look out. Lookout. All right. Well,

0:28:31 Lydia: Pardue was born in 48, by the way. So at this point, he was 42 years old.

0:28:37 Matt: BC, 4800 BC.

0:28:41 Lydia: 1948.

0:28:38 Thomas: Oh, 42. Yeah. Wait,

0:28:43 Matt: No, Casey

0:28:43 Thomas: Sorry, when was he? You said 48. Wow. It's like my almost my mom's age. Jesus.

0:28:45 Lydia: He's 77 years old? Mm -hmm.

0:28:49 Matt: In around the time that he was being the waiter, and she recognized vaguely that it was Roger Perdue, but she's like, that guy needs to be in a live -action version of Shrek. Are they making a live action Shrek anytime soon? He does look like an ogre. Here's the counterpoint there. Here is the thing I'm going to say. I don't think this movie would work if it was like Matthew Kasavitz or somebody who's a handsome French guy, or Vincent Cassel, or one of the classic modern...

0:28:57 Lydia: Yeah, truly.

0:28:59 Thomas: Don't know who that is, yeah

0:29:09 Lydia: Agree. I agree. I can't be like someone who's beautiful because, because

0:29:11 Matt: No. You can't look at him and be like, oh, of course she'd marry him. No, it has to be somebody who is weird and oafish and a bore.

0:29:17 Thomas: I don't mind the looks. It's more being weird in every single way. I think you need somebody who he doesn't. I'm not saying he has to be be hot, but if he's gonna look like an ogre, he's got to be charming in a better way and not the weirdest, most awkward, off-putting person that's

0:29:21 Matt: Yes.

0:29:32 Matt: No. No I'm with you. But for tension, for romantic comedy purposes, he's got to be weird. But yeah. But

0:29:37 Thomas: Yeah. Sure. Yeah.

0:29:37 Lydia: She's not supposed to want to be with him. Yeah.

0:29:39 Matt: Right. And the problem is I knew too much about the man before I watched the movie, but I also did not like the actor or what he was doing or his choices.

0:29:43 Lydia: Hmm.

0:29:39 Thomas: Yeah. Now See, Matt, I didn't know anything about him and I still felt the same way, meaning he just sucks. He's just not good.

0:29:49 Matt: Right. Yeah. That's a good metric.

0:29:51 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:29:52 Lydia: Scene, we go back to her apartment. She's living her solo life, like living her best solo life. Everything's pouring water. She'S bringing this beautiful garden of riches back to life in her amazing apartment that somehow she can afford by herself.

0:29:58 Thomas: Yeah.

0:30:06 Matt: It is awesome.

0:30:06 Lydia: Yeah,

0:30:07 Thomas: Like sprinkler, indoor sprinkler system and whatever. It's a weird, weird thing.

0:30:08 Matt: Yeah, place.

0:30:10 Thomas: Yeah.

0:30:10 Lydia: Everything is thriving. Things are getting real happy. I guess it's a way to show the time is passing. Right. Because we see the plants kind of getting better. And also walks through Central Park, I guess, at one point at this at this particular scene. And there's like barely anybody. And I was like, OK, but I don't think so. So you guys, Central Park is like all day, every day. Guess, I guess.

0:30:25 Thomas: It the 90s. Oh, yeah.

0:30:33 Matt: Did get married in February, so if it was within a month or two of that, it's still going to be pretty cold.

0:30:36 Lydia: Point.

0:30:35 Thomas: This

0:30:36 Matt: But

0:30:37 Lydia: Good point, and gets out of the cab a little bit later that day, I guess after a date with gardening lover Phil, and he wants to see her place. She says no. They do some making out on the front of the building, and the doorman sees this, understands her to be married, and that is not her husband. And so she comes in and he also says that she's received some mail under her maiden name.

0:31:00 Thomas: Is too much detail. Hun, we're, yeah.

0:31:02 Lydia: Know, but I want to know, is the doorman a narc? Is that what led to what we're going to see next, which is shortly know, he's been keeping an out for mail from her husband from Africa. Thereafter, someone is down in the lobby. And wouldn't you know it, it's immigration. Immigration and they're cracking down.

0:31:08 Thomas: Whole thing. Beep.

0:31:10 Matt: A good point.

0:31:21 Lydia: And so what I'm wondering is, because this guy, he has a problem with feminism. He has a problema with all these other things. I wonder if he narked. I Wonder.

0:31:20 Matt: I -N -S. It's true. The women's libbers. Interesting in -universe explanation because now there are other reasons I was going to get into about why INS might have noticed this one. That. I think that is an explanation.

0:31:36 Lydia: They show up in the lobby. I guess she gets them to leave for the time being because now she has to go track down Gerard Depardieu, her husband.

0:31:43 Thomas: Beep beep, this just, just in: I have more Neanderthal DNA than 37 percent of other, uh, so Not, not as high, yeah. I haven't logged in this for 10 years. I don't know when I did it. Was a long time. It might be 15. I was like, "Oh, I guess I still have the password logged in." So there you go. It It says a bunch of stuff that are totally wrong. You ready for this one, hon? You have one variant associated with having a worse ability to smell.

0:31:48 Lydia: Just logged logged in. Yeah.

0:32:04 Lydia: Yeah.

0:32:06 Thomas: Wrong!

0:32:07 Lydia: They got that really, really wrong.

0:32:09 Thomas: God, I need to alert them. I have the best ability to smell that there is, so there's no... I wish I didn't. I wish I didn't.

0:32:14 Lydia: Yeah, yeah it's debilitating actually.

0:32:17 Thomas: Wish Yeah.

0:32:18 Lydia: So she goes to try and track him down so he can be at the apartment when they come back to do the, what is going to be essentially, this first round informal interview. But she doesn't know where to find him because he got fired from his waiter gig. She happens to track him down though. Yeah.

0:32:33 Thomas: A weird one, just random detail. Oh, he sucks. Like, she goes in, and the restaurant, I don't know, manager's like, that fucking guy. Steer clear of that guy. He sucks real bad. I'm talking about the actor.

0:32:43 Lydia: Yeah. No. Truly, I think there's some elements of his real life that came into this.

0:32:46 Thomas: No, it's such a weird detail. There something I'm missing? Was that supposed to mean something else? Like, why did he get fired? And the manager's like, fucking Jesus, stay away from that guy.

0:32:49 Lydia: Yeah.

0:32:57 Matt: He's just kind of a loser. I mean, he just can't hold down a job, apparently. I believe it.

0:33:02 Thomas: I'm not saying I don't, I mean, I don' I'm saying like, Why what, would they throw that in? It would be one thing to be like, okay, he's late. And so he lost the job, but

0:33:09 Matt: Well, she has to be able to find him, though. She has to track him down for

0:33:11 Thomas: Saying he can lose his job, that's fine. I'm saying it's okay, it's OK with me if he loses his job. I'm saying he loses job and the manager is like, "That guy, he's a fucking creep."

0:33:20 Lydia: He monologues about it, yeah.

0:33:21 Thomas: He sucks, he's the worst. Stake, he literally says, "Steer clear of that fucking guy." Like, just don't even, whatever. I'm saying it is one thing if you want to have him be late and lose a job for that, he he's losing a job because he's a creep. The guy's like, he was inappropriate with with one of the people or something. Like, it's weird. It's a weird detail to put in. Don't you think?

0:33:13 Matt: Okay. Okay, I see.

0:33:42 Lydia: I think so, yeah.

0:33:42 Thomas: No. Okay.

0:33:44 Matt: Yeah, no, I'm thinking about it. No, because it's important that this guy be kind of unlikable, or more than kind of unlikeable for Yeah, because she's got a... Well, you know the tagline of the movie? I actually thought the tag line was the best part, it, that it's about two people who marry, meet, and fall in love. I think that's a really good tagline.

0:33:57 Thomas: Is. Oh, marry, meet and fall in love. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that'S kind of funny, but I don't think that, I mean, she could just be, she's with another guy. You don't need to have them be, I don'T know where you're getting this. He doesn'T, he doesn'T need to be like an ogre for this movie to work.

0:33:59 Matt: Yeah, I like that.

0:33:59 Lydia: That's cute, yeah. Yeah.

0:34:10 Thomas: He just, she'S with someone else and he'S like, not amazing. That'S That's all it needs to be.

0:34:13 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah.

0:34:10 Matt: No, it's true. It could have just been ad -libbed after he spent time around Gerard Depardieu. It's possible. I were parts of this movie that were modified for him. And I should point out also, we didn't mention this, I should mention it very quickly, that the writer -director only wanted Gerard Despardieu for this role, kept a picture of him next to the typewriter while he was typing it.

0:34:18 Thomas: Yeah, but it's it's a crazy detail to throw in.

0:34:31 Lydia: What?

0:34:32 Matt: And he put off the movie for a year to work with his production schedule and made Dead Poets Society in the meantime while he was waiting. Yeah.

0:34:28 Thomas: Oh, wow. Oh, my God. What the fuck?

0:34:36 Lydia: No. Made Dead Poets Society in the meantime?

0:34:40 Matt: Yeah, while he was always waiting for Gerardo Perdue to become available, his dream role, his dream guy for this movie. Yeah?

0:34:41 Lydia: Man. Great movie. Wow.

0:34:45 Matt: I know. I don't see it.

0:34:47 Lydia: Very bizarre. So we get to, I guess, the next day, she happens to track him down. We don't know because we don't see any of that. It's not important. They need to get ready for the first interview. He's taking a look around at her stuff, gets her name wrong. Not a good sign when immigration is about to come to the door and they're here. So they quickly make a plan of, you know, how they're going to approach this. She is losing her mind with anxiety.

0:35:01 Matt: First name? Yeah.

0:35:12 Thomas: Fair.

0:35:12 Lydia: And he's like, no big deal. This stuff happens all the time. Just have to answer a couple little questions and then they'll be on their way. Don't worry about it and let me lead. And I think he's right. Honestly, I think he's like like she's neurotic at this point where he's like, you can't handle this. Like, let me me steer it.

0:35:23 Thomas: Well, yeah. Yeah. Think that's what they were going for. I think. I think she's supposed to be kind of like, know, weird and anxious, but because they're bad at everything, it came across like she's just a fucking idiot. I really didn't like it because she was just like, oh, what are we? And he's like, well, we should, you know, probably pretend we're married. What? I don't know. You're going to come in the house and do it. It was like, what? Come on. Like, she's not fucking stupid. Like, I think she would at least be like, yeah, you're right. All right. Let's pretend to do that or something. It's just weird, lazy bullshit.

0:35:39 Lydia: Yeah.

0:35:41 Matt: Yeah. It

0:35:50 Lydia: Gross. Cooties.

0:36:03 Matt: It didn't occur to her until, like, now that she's committing a federal crime and she just figured this out that it's a crime to be doing any of this. They're about to commit, like, the fifth or sixth federal crime we've seen in the first 20 minutes. I should explain the investigation part because

0:36:05 Thomas: Yeah.

0:36:13 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about the interview.

0:36:15 Matt: Is not normal even then. And again, I haven't been able to talk to anybody who's practicing back then, but they didn't just send people to your house ahead of your marriage interview. Yeah.

0:36:21 Thomas: What about Lydia's theory that the doorman narked?

0:36:24 Matt: No. That's totally possible. That's what I'm saying. You would have to be triggered by something, right? So if somebody drops a dime on you and actually says to immigration, you should check these people out, but the fact is that, um, know, she didn't have that apartment at the time, so they probably listed separate addresses on the application, uh, like, that would trigger an investigation if you don't live together, potentially. They'd start looking second. Probably didn't put any bona fides in whatsoever with the application, which definitely was required. Any of the stuff they come up with later, photos and joint bills and stuff, anything that proves the marriage documentarily.

0:36:24 Thomas: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

0:36:26 Lydia: Yeah.

0:36:36 Thomas: That's a good point.

0:36:37 Lydia: Would

0:36:48 Thomas: Sorry, what do you mean? Yeah, bona fides. I

0:36:52 Matt: An initial marriage application today, because of the way things are, you have to really just document the hell out of it. All of the bank statements, joint bills, photos, letters, statements from people. And back then, again, on my in -universe explanation that Anton had helped other people with this before the law changed, it wouldn't have been that hard. Am willing to believe that just on the papers maybe, and especially as they're about to explain, because of the recent change in the law, they probably did fund a bunch of marriage fraud and they're probably just sending people out to do more investigations than they would do today. But today, to get that triggered, there would have to be something that catches their eye. Often if people are applying for benefits from a different address, or if they get arrested and they list a different address when they're being arrested as where they live, things like that. But it's usually from tips that they say, "Let's look into this people."

0:37:33 Lydia: Be, and sorry, it would not be a house call, like they wouldn't show up. It would be. Okay. Oh,

0:37:38 Matt: Be a house call.

0:37:40 Thomas: Think Matt was saying how did they know she lived there now, right?

0:37:43 Lydia: Yeah, yeah.

0:37:43 Matt: A good point. They would have to track her down, but they could just, yeah, that is a really good point, they would know where she worked, so they could at least maybe follow her from there.

0:37:51 Thomas: Where does she work?

0:37:52 Lydia: Know her name. Her name is pretty specific to Bronte and then under the married name Foray.

0:37:54 Thomas: Yeah.

0:37:54 Matt: Yeah, pretty unique. That is true. But she didn't have that address when they filed it. So that is good point but house call itself, you can turn them them away, but they're going to hold that against you really hard, and you'll probably just get it denied, right? And the fact that they first showed up, what they were implying was probably like 8 p.m. or 9 p.m. at night, I think, when they show up and ring her bell.

0:37:57 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah.

0:38:12 Matt: So that's kind of weird.

0:38:11 Thomas: Oh, really? Oh, wow. That is weird.

0:38:13 Lydia: It was after her date with Phil more

0:38:15 Matt: Yeah. My understanding is that they would do it usually during the day, and often they do it when you're not home, so they'll come back, and they'll ask, "Is there a time when you think he's going to be home?" But if they want, like if it's just the wife is home, "Can we come in and look around?" And they'll look to make sure that it appears that there are two genders of clothing in the the room if you're a heterosexual couple. Right.

0:38:15 Thomas: Oh, yeah.

0:38:31 Lydia: Than one toothbrush. Yeah. Yeah.

0:38:33 Matt: All the stuff you'd expect. Or that it turns out that there's not a housemate who's sleeping in your room or hanging around. Number of bedrooms and the people who live there don't add up or whatever. Think this is a very accurate portrayal of a house call as I understand it. They would ask you a few questions, but this sit down kind of pre -interview thing, they'd mostly just be kind of looking around and then asking you questions about what's in there. And fact that he didn't know where the bathroom term was. It would have pretty much been the end of it.

0:38:33 Lydia: Yeah.

0:38:52 Lydia: It all falls apart because

0:38:54 Matt: Yeah.

0:38:53 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, oh,

0:38:54 Lydia: Uh, things are going well and they're like, "Yeah, you know, the things are, forgive us, you know, for for intruding. Uh, you know, as a matter of curiosity, how did you two meet? I'm sure it was a romantic story." And then we get this very silly Gerard Depardieu doing a little, I don't know, a little physical comedy, I guess, involving parcels. Yeah.

0:39:12 Thomas: Boy.

0:39:15 Matt: The word parcels more. Please.

0:39:16 Thomas: Yeah, parcels 1 ,100 times.

0:39:16 Lydia: Yeah. Um, but then Phil calls during this point. Andy McDowell can't be chill about that either.

0:39:24 Matt: Yeah, just get off the phone, man. What are you doing?

0:39:24 Lydia: Um Just say you'll come back later and hang up.

0:39:27 Matt: I hated that.

0:39:27 Lydia: Yeah.

0:39:28 Thomas: Yeah, also, I think you guys are wrong. I think it actually is six. It shows the clock, and it's six, and its light. So

0:39:34 Matt: When they show up. When they first buzz, it's

0:39:35 Thomas: Oh

0:39:36 Lydia: No. No. But the, the first time that they call, yeah, and they say they're down in the lobby, George doesn't

0:39:38 Thomas: They called. Oh Okay, wait,

0:39:39 Matt: Dark. Yeah? When they call up. Yeah... She

0:39:42 Thomas: But then just nothing? Oh.

0:39:44 Lydia: Live there yet.

0:39:44 Thomas: So she blows them off or whatever. Oh.

0:39:44 Lydia: Yeah. Yep. Yep.

0:39:46 Matt: Says come back tomorrow because it is late, like it's legitimately

0:39:48 Lydia: We assume. I don't think she, like, literally says it, but yeah, we assume.

0:39:49 Matt: Yeah.

0:39:49 Thomas: That is weird. Yeah, there's a lot they don't explain. I was wondering that too, where it's like, "Now I remember, it's they're there," and she's like, "Nah." She doesn't even say anything, she just doesn't do it, and then it's the next day. Okay, okay.

0:39:51 Matt: Right. Yeah. Right. Oh.

0:39:56 Lydia: Yeah. Yep. After the parcel bit and Phil calls and it throws Annie McDowell off, ends up saying the wrong name, which I think clues in the immigration guy who's there. And he asks to use the bathroom and then George totally blows it because he doesn't know where the bathroom is. Um,

0:40:17 Thomas: Sorry, just because I was crazy, so she, she does come home from her date, but then it shows her up on the roof and she's in her bathrobe and it's light in the morning.

0:40:25 Matt: Okay, that's why you're, okay.

0:40:26 Thomas: So it's like the next day from the date. And then she, I guess, blows him off another day. Yeah. And then he's like, I don't know. And then I guess she's called.

0:40:26 Matt: Right.

0:40:30 Lydia: Then she's called. Uh, okay.

0:40:33 Thomas: And so I guess he blows him up another day?

0:40:36 Lydia: I guess that fits with my theory that the doorman narked because then they would need a little more time to get there.

0:40:40 Thomas: Yeah.

0:40:40 Matt: That makes sense.

0:40:43 Thomas: Weird.

0:40:43 Matt: Uh, shout out to a veteran character actor, actor Ethan Phillips, playing the immigration guy here. He's perfectly cast for this, uh, Trek fans will recognize him from Star Trek: Voyager.

0:40:49 Lydia: Is he from?

0:40:51 Matt: Uh, Neelix.

0:40:48 Thomas: Oh, right. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I knew I knew him from something. I was like, what do I know that guy from?

0:40:53 Matt: Uh, one of those guys. He's got a great, great voice. Oh, I am.

0:40:56 Lydia: Nerds. Just kidding.

0:40:57 Thomas: I haven't really watched that one. I just, the stupid makeup from that.

0:41:02 Matt: I yeah. It's fun to see him not in makeup and wearing those glasses. I think he's a perfectly cast INS officer, really.

0:41:03 Thomas: Yeah.

0:41:08 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah, I think he does a good job. Um, George ruins it And they're going to have to do a full formal interview now on Monday. Bronte meets with her lawyer. You might recognize him from Mrs. Doubtfire. He was the television station manager that Robin Williams has to impress, Mr. Lundy. And he's a lawyer for this.

0:41:25 Matt: The lawyer scene

0:41:27 Thomas: Matt, do they give you a chance? They're like, all right, you totally failed and it's obvious you aren't really married. Why don't we give you some time to come up with better stories and then come back?

0:41:35 Matt: Yeah get your story straight, yeah. Well, okay, so again, multiple massive red flags in this house call, right? All over the place. Uh, they, they're do entitled to an interview, and again, I don't know exactly how it worked back then. The interview they portray is not the interview the way it works today. I'm not even sure that's how it worked then. We'll get to that part, obviously. But the house call is more just kind of collect information they can use against you at the interview. That is normal. They would still give you the interview, and there's a lot. I was actually disappointed that they didn't use stuff that they found at the interview. We will get there. It's because they kind of do, but they don't. But the timeline is ridiculous. And now I've understood. I've talked to older immigration lawyers, and apparently you can just go into the federal building in Boston and basically just do a marriage case within a day or two, way back in the day, like in the 80s and 90s.

So maybe this is not so ridiculous, but the idea that you filed it maybe a few weeks ago, and now you're getting an interview after your house call, like a few days after that. But we have to play the lawyer scene very quickly, almost in its entirety, because it is so weird. And this lawyer is committing more crimes

0:41:37 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Yeah.

0:42:27 Matt: And giving some incredibly bad advice.

0:42:28 Thomas: This is a mob lawyer.

0:42:30 Matt: Also, like, weirdly familiar with her in a way that made me think that they're implying it's maybe a family friend or like her uncle or something.

0:42:27 Lydia: Yes. I

0:42:34 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. It almost seemed like her dad or something.

0:42:36 Lydia: Initially thought it was her dad.

0:42:37 Matt: Yes, I thought it was her dad, but there's no way it's her dad.

0:42:37 Thomas: Yeah. No.

0:42:37 Lydia: Yeah. No.

0:42:40 Matt: It doesn't work. It's just really strange.

0:42:40 Thomas: It's Not because

0:42:44 Clip: Can't believe you're saying this. Don't look so shocked. Frankly, young lady, I think you have your priorities all wrong. You married a man you didn't know in order to get a greenhouse. That shocked me.

0:42:55 Matt: That's a crime.

0:42:55 Clip: All right, so I'm old -fashioned when it comes to marriage. I happen to think that falling in love has something to do with it. You don't? Fine. But if marrying a stranger doesn't shock you, then letting him move in, spend a couple of nights sleeping on the sofa, well, that shouldn't shock me either. Oh, this isn't happening.

0:42:56 Matt: Keep doing it.

0:43:10 Thomas: Well, Dumb, it's nicht how she feels about actual marriage.

0:43:11 Clip: They want a second interview on Monday. This is Friday. That gives you the weekend to get your story straight. Two days? Why don't I see why he has to move in? Why can't he just meet me here in the park or something? Because this interview is going to be in-depth. They're going to question you separately. They're gonna want to know the color of each other's toothbrush. What does he like to eat? I don't know. Does he snore? You're gonna have to study each other. It's like you're cramming for an exam. Oh, God. Do I have no alternative? Sure. You can confess everything now. He'll be deported. You could face charges and no more greenhouse. House, it's like living in a police state. No, no, it's called breaking the law. Now, no matter how trivial it may have seemed to you at the time, that's what you've done anyway. I think you should introduce George to some of your friends. My friends? Let him get to know them. Say he's visiting from Paris or something. No, I couldn't bear that. Such a slob. I'd do it without anybody knowing. Well, that's up to you, but listen,

0:43:12 Thomas: Oh.

0:43:46 Thomas: I'm kind of with him on this one. I

0:43:48 Matt: I'm helping you do it.

0:44:06 Clip: Get that story straight. Oh, by Monday evening this will all be over. We can start planning the divorce. You heard.

0:44:12 Matt: Amazing.

0:44:05 Thomas: Guess really I really think that's how any of that works.

0:44:17 Matt: Don't establish this as an immigration lawyer, first of all, but any lawyer should know that he's helping you perpetuate a crime, this is like a criminal defense attorney being like, no, you're selling drugs wrong. Let me tell you how to better organize your drug empire.

0:44:17 Thomas: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Hey, you're the one who wants to sell drugs. All right. I'm

0:44:30 Matt: Not how

0:44:31 Lydia: Your act together, you guys.

0:44:33 Matt: I do it, but I think

0:44:34 Thomas: A little more old-fashioned. Yeah, I think you should grow your own drugs. Yeah.

0:44:39 Matt: It has something to do with recreation. Uh, but no, so I here for the patrons. I want to make sure I get this stuff right. I did what I always do. And I got a little high and looked into the law from the nineties because I don't know anything about law from nineties.

0:44:42 Thomas: I don't think that you needed to do that. Did you need to did

0:44:49 Matt: Uh, no, I did. I Thomas, I have fidelity. That's

0:44:51 Lydia: The people demanded it

0:44:52 Thomas: They is that what the, okay, could just regular look at the law. You don't have to get high and look at a lot. Man, is that part of the

0:44:53 Matt: Right. The people want to know what the rules of professional conduct were like in New York. I don't tell you to do your job, Thomas.

0:45:02 Thomas: True, but that's also funny to present it as a duty. The patron, look, I, I don't even want it, but like, for the patrons, I got high. Yeah.

0:45:11 Matt: And research law, yeah. Well, it's because I wish I could get high and research other kinds of law that I actually have to do all day, but this is fun. But I actually trust my judgment on this completely. So the thing is that there was a different set of rules of professional conduct in 1990 that would have been in effect at the time of the movie. So I had to go back and look, and it was a violation of fact.

0:45:26 Thomas: But It's probably not that this thing

0:45:29 Matt: I mean, obviously, I don'T think you need to be a lawyer to understand this is a violation of the rules of Professional Conduct under any circumstances. It's also part of the the conspiracy. So now he, Anton, and Bronte are all part of the conspiracy along with George to commit marriage fraud.

0:45:41 Thomas: Goes all the way to the top.

0:45:42 Matt: Yep. So you've got a section two violation. And then on top of that, you've Got these multiple rules of professional conduct, including coaching false statements, helping with false application. Get aiding and abetting, of course, obviously.

0:45:42 Thomas: Yeah.

0:45:52 Thomas: How much time is this old guy doing? Jeez.

0:45:55 Matt: He's going to prison too. Terrible advice. The advice, by the way, just again, I say usually not legal advice, but my legal advice I'm going to give you this very directly. If you are, have gotten yourself into a green card marriage, withdraw the petition. That is the advice. Do not continue with the green card. Marriage

0:45:56 Lydia: Yeah

0:46:08 Thomas: Yeah. That's probably the way it's going to go. What

0:46:09 Lydia: Matt's

0:46:10 Matt: Do not go to the interview. Don't go under oath and say that you're married to this person. Get out of it as soon as you possibly can.

0:46:15 Lydia: The buzzkill but he's the right buzzkill

0:46:17 Thomas: If you can, like, force yourself to actually fall in love that fast, like if could the lawyer be like, well, unless you are really in love, maybe you decide it's a real relationship, wink, wink. No, okay, yeah.

0:46:21 Matt: Yes. The green card challenge. Yeah.

0:46:25 Lydia: Yeah but

0:46:35 Matt: Right. That's the closest you could get to ethical advice is, uh, yeah. You didn't tell me you weren't in love. So yeah.

0:46:39 Thomas: Yeah. God. That's where we're going to have to leave it. There's so much more if you you want to get on that Patreon. That was a lot of fun. Still a lot to talk about on the other side of the Patreon. Get on it. Come Come join in. Listen. Hey, the book club too. There's all kinds of good reasons. Thanks for considering and see you very soon for another fun Jenessa deep dive. For listening.

0:47:11 Clip: This has been Opening Arguments, produced by Thomas and Lydia Smith, with editing help from Peter Baird. The intro is by Thomas Smith. This outro is by Matt Cameron. Support the show at patreon.com/law. Contact us through Patreon or openarguments@gmail.com. Make sure to follow our blue sky at OpenArgs. But most of all, please share the show. Thanks for listening.

0:47:46 Thomas: Like Gerard Depard. Don't! But saving that one, guys. You're the one who wants to sell drugs all right I'm

0:47:54 Matt: Don't tell you to your do job, Thomas.