Trump Is Trying to Blanche His Taint

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:03 Matt: Name one time you've ever told Donald Trump, no, that's supposed to be part of the job when you're attorney general, especially with this kind of a president.

0:00:17 Clip: President Trump has said, I am the president, and if you work in the executive branch, you work for me.

0:00:23 Matt: That's a confession that is not historically the role of the attorney general. The attorney general represents the United States and its best interests.

0:00:34 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Opening Arguments. This is episode 1269. I'm Thomas. That over there is Matt Cameron, real life immigration attorney. How are you doing?

0:00:42 Matt: I'm fired up for the World Cup, Thomas, believe it or not. Yeah.

0:00:45 Thomas: Oh, is it? Now, do you actually care or do you care politically? You know, like, because it's like, it's like the anti -American thing to do. It's the liberal thing to, the leftist cuck thing to do, you know, soccer.

0:00:52 Matt: It's the only sport I've ever actually played on a team. So I do know how it works. I was never any good at it. And I had a couple of own goals to my name, but also I represent people from all over the world and it comes up in conversation all the time. And I will say, you know, the reason I'm an immigration attorney is because I lived in Newark, New Jersey in the Ironbound, which is one of the most fantastic neighborhoods in the country, incredible immigrant neighborhood, just packed full of people from all kinds of different places. But it was predominantly when I was there, it was a lot of Brazilian and Portuguese, and just huge street parties around every major soccer game, World Cup, and all the different cups. So you just kind of get in the rhythm of it. It.

0:01:06 Thomas: Happens. Hmm. Nice. Yeah. Especially with with Ronaldo, it's like they have the world's most famous person, I'm sure. A lot of national pride going on.

0:01:39 Matt: And at the time, of course, Casey was super into Ronaldo. So, you know, heard plenty about Ronaldo. The exciting thing, of coarse, for us is that we do have a lot of Scottish people coming to Boston this weekend. I'm extra excited about that.

0:01:43 Thomas: Wait, what? How is that connected?

0:01:52 Matt: Scotland is playing Haiti in Foxborough Stadium, which is where the Patriots play. So we're going to get a bunch of Scottish people.

0:01:56 Thomas: Scotland is playing Haiti. Wow. The World Cup is cool because you're like, that's such a combination of things and people.

0:02:00 Matt: It's a strange place. I know. I mean, I would usually root for Haiti in any given situation, but I do love Scotland and I'm just excited to have a bunch OF Scottish people around. One of my favorite places on earth.

0:02:11 Thomas: Yeah, it is really nice. There's also trouble brewing with that, of course. We're going to talk about how ICE and this administration is interacting with the World Cup. I'm really curious to hear your breakdown on that. A lot people are really worried about how that all is going to go, I am sure.

0:02:26 Matt: We went out of our way not long ago to change the rules to make this easier for people to get in, and now before the first game has even started, we're kicking them out. Including one of the most famous referees in the world was just excluded from the United States. Yeah terrible news, but I got to explain it because a lot of people have questions about it, and I've got answers. But the main story today, the thing we've got to talk about, is of course one Todd Blanche. And we got a favorite topic of ours since the Gavel Gavel days I feel like we were I feel like we knew todd blanche before he was cool it's right I should be clear he was never cool before it was cool yes that's right yeah we've

0:02:53 Thomas: Yeah, we were into Todd Blanche's early albums, and we deserve all kinds of street cred for that.

0:03:01 Thomas: No, he's not. But knowing about him was cool? I don't know. I'm not sure that's true either, but we'll go with it.

0:03:08 Matt: Got hours of material already much of it paywalled I think maybe for better or worse right now making fun of todd blanch

0:03:12 Thomas: Yeah I lost track of it. I got too depressed about the whole thing.

0:03:15 Matt: Well I mean honestly maybe right now that's

0:03:16 Thomas: Trump should have been locked away.

0:03:19 Matt: Okay yeah in fact we're going to revisit uh some of those classic thomas smith Todd Blanche reads today yeah I've got I've got some links for you because everybody should know what a great job you did on those readings, taking on the persona. And also, just in case anybody doesn't know, we did have an entire season of Gavel Gavel in which we did the entire Trump trial.

0:03:26 Thomas: Holy smokes. Oh, okay.

0:03:39 Matt: We just went through it with massive transcript readings. Some of the most fun I've ever had podcasting with Liz Skeen.

0:03:38 Thomas: Yeah it was really really fun. It's such a heartbreaking thing now to think about. I really got bummed about it after the election. I was all excited. I I was really excited and hopeful that he was going to lose the election and then we could really do a triumphant series about him actually maybe going to jail or at least facing some sort of punishment for his crimes. And then that didn't happen. And, you know, put me in a depression that I haven't gotten out of since. My only regret is I didn't know how much of an asshole he was. And Bove, I've said before, but that's the biggest, like I had no idea because, you know, he's kind of unknown, like didn't Know What an Asshole That Guy Was. I would have probably cast like, you Know, Satan or Voldemort to read him, had I known. Instead, I had my sweet neighbor read him who happened to be an actor and he was so delightful. It just doesn't fit now. It's just the things we've learned. It's a different time.

0:04:32 Matt: Could have tricked Johnny Depp into volunteering or something. I don't know. Somebody horrible.

0:04:41 Thomas: And do we have a footnote? I always need a good I need my footnote

0:04:44 Matt: Yes, we do have a fun footnote by a listener. We've got to have our footnote.

0:04:48 Thomas: I'm addicted it's uh until they invent footnote methadone or whatever I'm gonna I'm going to always need my footnote so thank you

0:04:56 Matt: Yeah, we always have to have that little stinger at the end with something interesting or fun. And this one's by listener request. I had actually seen this story, but a lot of people asked about it. And it is about the battle between the company Patagonia and the drag queen Patagonian. We'll be getting into that. It's a big one.

0:05:09 Thomas: Yes yeah I've heard about that I'm I'm excited to hear usually like the footnotes a total surprise but you know it happens I've heard that story so you know all right I'm sure it'll still be good next time don't tell me that was

0:05:22 Matt: Hey, you asked. Here we are.

0:05:22 Thomas: Spoilers kind of bummed you told me the ending of the I just asked you if there there was one. It's like, Hey, is there a television show called lost? Yeah. Here's the ending. It'S what Matt was doing just then. No, just kidding.

0:05:34 Matt: It was the Pope American. Here We Are. There's always a footnote, Thomas. Thomas. My favorite new question.

0:05:36 Thomas: It's the Pope. It's the Pope American. That's a fun one. Yeah. Does the Pope shit in America? Yeah, I don't know. So I' m excited. Let' s get to all that after this break. A lot of movies. I' I'm going to go ahead and say it's out because it's I believe it's the edit is finishing like now and then I will have put it out. So I'm making that strong claim. It is out. It was a lot of fun.

0:05:55 Matt: Sweet.

0:06:02 Thomas: Matt and I will see if our friendship survived it. That's the you know, you got to tune in to find out if our friendships survived the harsh disagreement.

0:06:02 Matt: C C'est bon, mon ami. C'est bon.

0:06:13 Thomas: And Matt's a very angry person. So it got to shouting. It was a full on, I measured a 0 .1 decibel increase in his, like, that's how much, so

0:06:20 Matt: That's what the patrons get to hear. My rage. We

0:06:29 Thomas: All that at patreon.com/law, and you can avoid the breaks. We will pause here and then we'll get to it.

0:06:38 Ad: [Ad break 1 — ad music]

0:06:38 Thomas: Okay. So we starting with Todd Blanche. I was so happy in a weird way. I was actually happy that Trump was like, we're, we'll nominate, we'RE doing it. You know? Cause I feel like for one, things can't get much worse. And for two, I'm kind of under the understanding that if he tries to actually get him into this position, he's going to have to go through some questions, right? Are we going to get a, all right.

0:06:58 Matt: Sure are. Oh, big ones. And we're going to get into those. I've actually, just to help the Senate out, I have come up with all the questions they should ask him. So I hope they're listening.

0:07:05 Thomas: Wow. That's nice of you.

0:07:07 Matt: Yeah, doing my job here.

0:07:08 Thomas: They should give you like a tax refund or something. You know what I mean?

0:07:11 Matt: Public service here.

0:07:11 Thomas: Like you worked, yeah, you worked for the federal government.

0:07:14 Matt: Doing my part. I want to frame this here with Bill Cassidy, Republican. Now again, as you said, this is shaky. He doesn't necessarily have the republican votes they were not happy ostensibly about the whole slush fund thing which of course is going to come up in this conversation

0:07:25 Thomas: It's already a bad start. If you have such a concept that you're going to need to deal with called, yeah. The whole slush fund thing. You're starting from a bad place. Yeah.

0:07:30 Matt: Yeah right yeah remember that yeah I want to play a clip here of bill cassidy's test of what he says he's going to be judging this entire thing by and I'm going to help him out with a series of questions that I think might help

0:07:39 Thomas: Hmm. Bill Cassidy was, of course, primaried successfully by Trump, essentially. And so I doubt he's going to be super excited to go along with it. All right.

0:07:49 Matt: Here yes that's right nothing to lose that's fine

0:07:56 Clip: I have to be convinced that Todd Blanch is going to be an attorney general who used to be the president's personal attorney, as opposed to being the president personal attorney who happens to be attorney general.

0:08:10 Thomas: God. Yeah. Wow. You really you really set the bar high there.

0:08:12 Matt: Well said bill well said yeah yeah

0:08:17 Thomas: Holy moly. We'll see if he meets that impossible threshold.

0:08:21 Matt: To state the obvious this This is the first time that the president's personal attorney has been nominated. I will say Harriet Myers was nominated by George W. Bush, and she was his personal attorney for quite a while, but never actually had to be his criminal defense attorney. Yeah, that was a little different. Yeah, he had been charged with crimes, but she did not represent him in them.

0:08:32 Thomas: That was a scandal, right? That was. Oh. And it wasn't. It is a bit different. Oh he did wait when what was he charged with I don't know dui or something oh yeah

0:08:43 Matt: He was charged with DUI. He doesn't want you to know that. That did happen. The math on this, though, you know, we've got Cassidy. Obviously, we have got Tom Tillis. He's already retiring. And he called the slush fund payout pot for punks, I think. That's a great quote. Yeah.

0:08:56 Thomas: Yeah that's unnecessary but sure slush fun did it wow

0:09:00 Matt: John Cornyn, of course, also just lost his primary because of Trump, almost certainly. And so he's got a lot of questions, he says. We got three Republicans with nothing to lose, and that's what we need to lose this thing. Yeah.

0:09:10 Thomas: That's incredible three republican this is gonna be so funny three republicans it's like a tv show or reality show three Republicans with nothing to lose can they together find like one spine like maybe like 0 .7 of a spine like enough Because I still don't even know, like they have nothing to lose, but also I guess they have nothing to gain really. And they're, they don't care about dignity. So that's, that's not part of it.

0:09:34 Matt: Yeah, but Hey, if they can take this guy out, I mean, he's clearly, I don't think that our listeners need to be told that he's not, here's the thing, he is qualified. I don't have any, we're going to talk about that in a minute. I think he's qualified. He's not qualified. I just don't know. I just think he should be attorney general. That's very different. Different. He's already shown himself to be completely incapable of doing the job he's supposed to be doing.

0:09:52 Matt: And we can easily, we're going to get to it, but we can easy answer the test here. He is acting as Trump's attorney all the way through. That's what he's doing.

0:09:52 Thomas: Yeah, that'S a tricky one. Would you say that the Enron CEO is qualified to be a CEO? Yes, he's qualified, but he shouldn't ever be in that position.

0:10:03 Matt: On paper, right.

0:10:08 Thomas: So is, what does it even mean to be qualified it's really philosophical question yeah sure

0:10:12 Matt: From what I understand, most CEOs are really only qualified to play golf. That's my impression. But just real quick, we have to steel man this very briefly because we always want to make sure that we're fair about this stuff when we can. As I said, I just want to remind everybody, because if you're coming into this not knowing as much about Todd Blanche as we we do. Congratulations. Todd Blanche is kind of the real deal in a way. He is the kind of person you would expect to be nominated for attorney general in away. Blanche was a registered Democrat until 2024. He got himself through Brooklyn law in night school while raising a family.

0:10:43 Matt: He had two clerkships under judges appointed by both parties. And both of those judges are now in the second circuit. He spent a decade in SDNY, the Southern District of New York, which is obviously one of the premier places to be in the U .S. Attorney's Office. And he was doing doing pretty serious gang prosecutions and organized crime.

0:10:59 Thomas: And he's like I'm gonna join them I'm tired of if you can't beat him join

0:11:02 Matt: Organized crime seems like a good racket. Yeah, that's right. That's right, as we talked about during Gavel Gavel, the Trump trial was his first as a full -on defense attorney as a trial. He did go to Cuddlewall or Wickersham and whoever in New York, which is a pretty respectable firm. He was also a partner at WilmerHale. So he made partner at two big firms that you've heard of.

0:11:09 Thomas: Him oh yeah

0:11:19 Matt: And then he gave up his entire life in 2024 to represent Donald J. Trump in four different cases. I think he's the only attorney to have been entered as his appearance on all four of Trump's criminal cases.

0:11:18 Thomas: Wow was he shown a weird portal into the future by a like demon and traded his soul or something that's the only thing yeah

0:11:37 Matt: It's quite a gamble. No, he moved to Palm Beach and wanted to be closer to Trump. Just fell in love with the guy, from what I can tell. Yeah.

0:11:43 Thomas: In a way hey, you quote, got to hand it to him. Like, I can't believe that he referenced the drill tweet. Quote, got a hand it ISIS or whatever it is.

0:11:47 Matt: No. He played his cards.

0:11:56 Thomas: I'll eat my words. I was criticizing him during the trial. Like, wow, you jump ship now for that guy. Like your whole thing. But it's crazy. I still don't get it. It's insane.

0:12:05 Matt: That's right. Well, let's listen for just a moment to him acting as Trump's personal attorney. Just remind everybody that he represented him all the way through the only case that went to trial in New York. We can hear one Thomas Smith reading Todd Blanch in an opening statement.

0:12:17 Clip: He's not just our former president. He's just not the Donald Trump that you've seen on TV and read about and seen photos of. He's also a man. He's a husband. He is a father. And he's a person just like you and just like me.

0:12:32 Thomas: Sure isn't.

0:12:34 Clip: What the people just did for about 45 minutes is present to you what appeared to be a very clean, nice story. It is not, it is not simple, as the people described. For one, and you heard the people admit this, most of what you're going to hear about in this trial, Most of the conversations, most of the documents are from 2015, 16, 17, years and years ago, pre-COVID. And you're going to hear witnesses talk about conversations, people they met with from 2015.

0:13:07 Clip: The story that you just heard, you will learn, is not true. And at the end of the trial, there will be plenty of reasonable doubt.

0:13:01 Thomas: Dear

0:13:10 Matt: Alright, that's enough. Just to give you the taste.

0:13:17 Thomas: God, I was just waiting for you to say stop.

0:13:19 Matt: He started, of course, all of that with, you know, President Trump didn't do it. I'm going to giveyou one more just because this is our favorite moment in the closing. Because I just love to play these clips. People got to hear these episodes. Your outstanding performance in the closing argument. This is with our commentary too, but Liz is going to jump in on this. We had some fun with this one.

0:13:34 Thomas: Oh, okay. I was going to say, holy sh...

0:13:38 Matt: The worst sports metaphor ever introduced into a trial.

0:13:40 Clip: And the last thing I'm going to talk about that gives you reasonable doubt is what I've been talking about for the past several hours. Michael Cohen, let me guess. He's the human embodiment of reasonable doubt.

0:13:53 Thomas: Boy, we're in Thomas -ception right now. We're listening to me comment on me and I'm commenting on me commenting on Me. This is... Okay. All right. I'll let it play. I'm going to not talk so that there's only two. One Thomas is too many, I'd argue. So this is...

0:13:59 Matt: Commenting on you. The top is still spinning here. We can do it.

0:14:09 Clip: I love that line. He lied many, many times before you even met him. His financial and personal well-being depends on this case. He is biased and motivated to tell you a story that is not true. The kind of witness that you want to testify, to take an oath and testify, is somebody that you can trust that they are telling you something to the best of their recollection, period. That's what we want from all of our witnesses. Most of the witnesses that testified over the past five weeks, I think you got that, most of them. But with Michael Cohen, you did not. Do you guys, have you guys heard of a GOAT? It's like what people talk about with athletes like Michael Jordan as the GOAT, Tiger Woods as the GOAT. Tom Brady is the GOATE. These athletes are the greatest of all time, the best among their peers. Michael Cohen is the gloat. He's literally the greatest liar of all. It's so bad. It doesn't mean he has lied to every single branch of Congress, both houses, the House and the Senate. It he has lied to the department of justice when he met with the special counsels okay I love

0:15:26 Matt: All right. You get it. Get the idea.

0:15:27 Thomas: Oh boy. All Right. This Is Real Me Now, Everybody.

0:15:31 Matt: Yeah, we're back.

0:15:32 Thomas: Although it might not be if in the future there's a fourth me like if we're listening to this episode of us in that case listen to that thomas I

0:15:39 Matt: And revisiting the confirmation. And that's just a little taste of how much fun we had on Gavel Gavel, obviously, just going through one of the most entertaining trials of all time. But just to remind everybody, that is how he is functioning as the defense attorney for Donald Trump. And we're going to to see as we keep going, how he continues to function as his personal attorney. So the first question that I think that should be raised, because I had this question during the trial while we were covering it for Gavel Gavel, name one time you've ever told Donald Trump no, because it really seems to me that even when he was representing him in a criminal defense capacity, he had no time ever said no to anything he ever wanted to do. That was my impression.

0:16:12 Thomas: Guess

0:16:22 Matt: That's supposed to be part of the job when you're attorney general, especially with this kind of a president.

0:16:21 Thomas: Yeah yeah can yeah it's a good one it's good interview question normally it's like can you think of a time when you resolved a conflict by whatever and it's likely can you give a time where you've ever not done exactly what president trump asked you to do a thing which used to be a scandal in and of itself I'm not going to talk talk about the tarmac again, but I'm going to talk about the tarmak again. It was a scandal when Bill Clinton was on the tarmaq, allegedly at the same time as Loretta Lynch. We don't even know if they even talked. But scandal. Scandal. Yeah.

0:16:56 Matt: We've never recovered from it. Yeah, right.

0:16:59 Thomas: Sorry, not when Bill Clinton was president, FYI. This was when Hillary was going to run for president eventually. That's when it was. And that was a scandal. Now, the president just tells the Attorney General what to do.

0:17:13 Matt: Yep or worse yet he just kind of suggests it on truth social and then it gets done.

0:17:17 Thomas: He says kiss and Blanche says how ass. I don't know. That's what came to my mind. It doesn't make any sense.

0:17:23 Matt: Just about works. We do have an explanation for this kind of behavior and I just want to remind everybody I know that this clip has been played plenty but we just got to listen to it one more time. Yeah got to hear it.

0:17:31 Thomas: Oh, when he told him he loved him? I love it. That's my favorite.

0:17:37 Clip: Working for president trump it's the greatest honor of a lifetime and if president trump chooses to um keep me as acting that's an honor if he chooses to nominate me that's in honor if to nominate somebody else and I go back to being the dag that's something else I will say thank you very much I love you sir

0:17:58 Matt: He probably will.

0:17:59 Thomas: If he tells me to go in my little cage at the foot of his bed, that's an honor.

0:18:05 Matt: Yeah, not to kink shame, but you know, not all this stuff needs to be public, man. That was from his press conference when he was nominated as acting attorney general, and he was obviously shilling for the job. Just one more example of Todd Blanch acting as the president's personal attorney more recently. I know that this is one of our favorite topics, and I do not want people to forget that this happened, because obviously the Epstein files are still top of mind. We have to talk about the fact.

0:18:29 Thomas: There are two horrendous things you could be talking about matt at least

0:18:35 Matt: That is true. This is, I think, one of the worst things that anybody in the Department of Justice has ever done. And I know I say that every week, but yeah, let's actually revisit as long as we're listening.

0:18:44 Thomas: Yeah let's all write down our top five and see if any of them are in common let's see if we've even named the same one once that's how bad he

0:18:52 Matt: As long as We're doing a clip show here, we can listen to ourselves one more time.

0:18:54 Thomas: Is yeah oh no okay

0:18:56 Matt: This is our episode where we did with Liz, where we listened to, we listened to the cleaned up audio of Todd Lynch interviewing Ghislaine Maxwell, going down to Tallahassee, pretending that they were having a proffer session for a case that had been done, closed book for a long time. Appeals were done. She's about to have her appeal rejected by the Supreme Court at this point. And let's just listen to the way he's treating her as if this is somehow new information or she is worthy of being listened to.

0:19:00 Thomas: At least there's a liz oh boy

0:19:22 Clip: When the person you're podcasting with, like, ah, so, uh, the question is, you know, when they're struggling, it's good as a, as a co-host to jump in the conversational partner, normal prosecutor stuff, obviously they had interviewed 44 women, let's say around that number. You have to understand not a single one of those 44 women mentioned me in a single report. And it's not because Go back they didn't mention me in the report because they never met me They never saw me and they never interacted with me So to go back to your question. It's not that I thought one way or another It's that I didn't see them. Okay, I see. Okay. Does that yeah, yeah, that's that's helpful And when I say not one, not one single one of those reports talks about me.

0:20:25 Clip: I really do have some slow cognition issues. So she says she testifies that it was that recruited her and trained her and not

0:20:41 Thomas: Oh that's oh wait that's other

0:20:43 Matt: Yeah, that really is enough. Just to give you a little taste of the way she's coaching her and saying, okay, thanks. That's so helpful. Again, this is a fully finished case. Yeah. Exactly. What are we doing here?

0:20:44 Thomas: Matt yeah helpful to what it was her saying like hey man I didn't do it Like, they ever do that with anybody else ever and say, yeah, no, that's really helpful. Thank you.

0:21:03 Matt: And Donald Trump, was it? I don't know the name, right? A lot of that going on throughout the two days. That was the whole purpose of it, of course, was to have her say that she barely knew Trump, that he'd barely been around to Epstein. And of course, Blanche at the time, we now know, was helping to supervise the release of the Epstein files, which were being trickled out at the time and of course would, yeah, it came up a few times. And also everything that she's saying is completely, like, her emails are in there, her emails with her, and she's cc'd on all this stuff that Epstein's getting about the girls and all these other things and the plans they're making. She can say whatever she wants. And obviously she's saying the kinds of things that people say after they've been convicted and lost all their appeals that, you know, that the witnesses were lying and that they, you you know, didn't tell the truth or framing it however they want to. But Todd Blanche went there and listened to her for two days and pretended like she had something to say.

0:21:20 Thomas: Oh, yeah. Was Trump in those at all?

0:21:47 Matt: There's nothing wrong with keeping Epstein front and center. I think that should be at the hearing. What did you think you were going to get out of this so -called proper session? What was the purpose of this? Why did you do this? If not to personally make sure that the president was somehow exonerated. And then of course, looking at the timing of her move to a lower security facility, getting all everything she wanted from this, right? She hasn't gotten her pardon yet, but who knows? Maybe when things died down after the midterms, right. Yeah.

0:22:09 Thomas: She did get moved to, she got kind of a sweet setup, right? Yeah.

0:22:14 Matt: Not long after, her. It couldn't be a coincidence.

0:22:16 Thomas: It was probably for all that really helpful testimony she gave about how I totally didn't do it, man.

0:22:19 Matt: That's right. This new information.

0:22:21 Thomas: And Donald Trump is a gentleman and a scholar.

0:22:23 Matt: She's acting like, you know, you could have asked me any time when of course she declined to participate in any of this and did not testify in trial, which is her right. But you know she's acting like she somehow was stifled this entire time. She was totally surprised about everything Epstein was doing. And again, cc'd on all the emails, participating in the emails. It's all come out since then. His oversight of the Epstein files alone should be disqualifying. The way that it came out, the way that they violated the Epstein Transparency Act.

0:22:43 Matt: I think that this is a very dramatic example and they should play a lot of clips from this interview.

0:22:48 Thomas: Of our show. Yeah, I agree.

0:22:49 Matt: Yeah, from our show specifically in our commentary. Yes.

0:22:51 Thomas: Oh, maybe they'll use my cleaned up audio.

0:22:53 Matt: Yeah. That has to be better. I mean, I know it's better. Moving on kind of to the idea, because again, he's acting as Trump's personal defense attorney by going down there and trying to get his client cleaned up a little bit and trying to get the public image away from Trump and Epstein, even though he knows the files are going to be coming out, much more is going to Be coming out about Trump's relationship. And then we look at the actual weaponization, not the stuff the anti -weaponization fund is supposed to be stopping, but like the actual reputationalization. He was asked recently by by the congressional committee who appeared in front of last month about whether Trump had directed the prosecution of James Comey, for example. Now, again, we know that Trump was directing the prosecution, of all kinds of political enemies from Letitia James to James Comey to Jerome Powell, none of which have been successful so far. Fortunately, Trump posted over and over about Comey being a dirty cop and he, you know, the 86 -47 post and Blanche indicted him pretty soon after posting. Trump talks about Obrega -Garcia. Obviously we know now from the the Obrega -Garcia decision that we read a few weeks ago. The judge found that main justice, Todd Blanch himself, was personally involved. Todd Blench's deputy was overseeing the Ombrega - Garcia prosecution, not just the deportation proceedings, but the bullshit human trafficking prosecution that was used just to bring him back from El Salvador for the excuse to follow the court's order and torture him some more. Again, is he taking direct orders? Were you acting on your own initiative every time the president told you to do these things? Were were you actually following the president's orders? Because it's really not better if he's just happening to coincide with the things that Trump posts on Truth Social and there's been no communication. It's pretty bad.

0:24:27 Matt: So here's another one that didn't get enough credit that I wanted to make sure that he's asked, and I hope that this comes up. Early on, when acting AG Todd Blanche comes in, he was told by the head of ethics, the head ethics attorney by DOJ, that he was going to have to recuse himself from every single case involving Donald Trump because he defended him in four criminal cases.

0:24:46 Thomas: All right did you do

0:24:48 Matt: No, it turns out. Yeah. And remember, just to remind everybody, I know that regular listeners understand this, but I want to say this very clearly out loud. One of those criminal cases was his responsibility for the insurrection on January 6th. The fact that Blanche was responsible for overseeing, winding down those prosecutions, pardoning those people, commuting those sentences. I guess he did eventually get himself out of some meetings and some of the Trump probes and whatever, but he's pretty clearly involved with all of this stuff that involves Trump personally, including the immunity deal that he signed off on. And he's the only signature on that keeps his former client from being audited or prosecuted by arguably pretty much any government agency from the beginning of time until the date of the deal. And also that person who gave him that advice was fired, coincidentally.

0:24:48 Thomas: That oh weird yeah

0:25:34 Matt: So got to have some questions about you were told to recuse. Where did you recuse? How did you refuse? Why does this person not have a job anymore? Is there there anybody who can actually make you recuse from anything like it has to be up to you all the time yeah yeah yeah

0:25:48 Thomas: Like like your mom or something could we get somebody is there anybody you'll listen to I don't want to spoil the party but is there any obligation for him to answer questions I mean what do we even what's like the best we're hoping for here

0:26:03 Matt: It's gonna look pretty bad if he just refuses he can't really take a fifth I guess he could take a fifth on some of this stuff that's gonna be pretty bad

0:26:09 Thomas: I don't think he'll take a fifth he'll just have some badgery non -answer and then that'll be that'll be that

0:26:12 Matt: Too yeah sure all right he can start yelling at them and doing the stuff that pam bondi did in her

0:26:16 Thomas: Well I think he would do it better than that that didn't go well if he does that I'm That was really bad.

0:26:18 Matt: Hearing yeah yeah that was bad but you know these are the questions that should be asked and it's up to him I want to answer them this didn't get a lot of attention but todd blanche was at cpac uh just in back in march just a couple months ago he had a so -called fireside chat and I don't know know why this annoys me so much, but there was no fire, not a single fire in view. Just call it a conversation with Todd Blanch, a night with Todd Banch.

0:26:43 Thomas: It's a podcast. Yeah.

0:26:45 Matt: He's going to explain something that I think is pretty damning.

0:26:49 Clip: Mr. Mueller was the leader of that. And he had a storied history that went back to, you're right, to the Vietnam War. But that was a disaster. I mean, it was the worst sort of weaponization of not only the government, but Congress, but other prosecutors, but the FBI. And it was a stain on this country that it will take a long time to remove.

0:27:18 Clip: The Mueller, Comey, the politicization of the FBI and DOJ, do we have any hope that we get back to the idea that no matter what your party affiliation, that you will face one system of justice again?

0:27:36 Matt: One system.

0:27:37 Thomas: Stupid.

0:27:38 Clip: I mean, listen, I think that what happened for the past four years was so bad and so awful. And a big part of that was what happened with the Department of Justice and the FBI and the weaponization that we saw but and and the Attorney General Pam Bondi President Trump myself we are changing things the other things that are happening there is not a single man or woman at the Department of Justice who had anything to do with those prosecutions over how many how how many have been canned over 200 over 200 either left before we came in because they knew it was coming or were fired or took early retirement they are no longer employed by this department and and when it comes to the the fbi which takes a lot of criticism especially because of what happened over the past several years director patel has cleaned house there too There isn't a single man or woman with a gun, federal agent, still in that organization

0:27:58 Thomas: Yeah. Sure are. What? Wow.

0:28:51 Clip: That had anything to do with the prosecution of President Trump.

0:28:57 Clip: And I want folks to realize what that means. President Trump, for the first time in modern history, has said, I am the president, and if you work in the executive branch, you work for me. And guess what? We can all read the Constitution. He's right. And unfortunately, past administrations, Republican included, have just resigned themselves to putting up with partisan actors within the Department of Justice.

0:29:29 Matt: There you go. That's a confession.

0:29:32 Thomas: Partisan actors? Yeah.

0:29:32 Matt: We don't put up with partisan actors because we've fired them all. We're not partisan at all. Yeah.

0:29:35 Thomas: Partisan means anybody who doesn't agree with us, I guess.

0:29:38 Matt: But the fact that he said out loud into a microphone in front of a lot of people that I am the president. And if you work in the executive branch, you work for me.

0:29:47 Thomas: That's crazy.

0:29:47 Matt: That's what he's saying. I work for the president. I am the president's attorney. That is what he is telling us right there. That is not historically the role of the attorney general. The attorney general represents the United States and its best interests. And he is being very clear.

0:29:57 Thomas: Yeah, because, like, you could still have a lawyer.

0:29:59 Matt: Yeah, you can definitely have your own lawyer and pay for them. You even have White House counsel to advise the president about White House stuff. You should not have the attorney General to do your bidding. And that's what He is saying that he will do. And I think that this clip alone, again, along with everything else we are talking about, is disqualifying. And I feel like it's fair to ask him straight up. When you talked about cleaning house and you talked about firing 200 prosecutors bragged about that how are you not being the president's defense attorney who represented him in the prosecutions you're talking about it's clear retribution and they made it clear it was retribution it was obviously retribution as was the Comey indictment obviously and the fact that they couldn't get the Comey indictment the first time and then they bring this ridiculous thing with the seashells the second time because you know they tried to keep a US attorney Lindsay Halligan who was in who just couldn't be properly appointed just on and on so there's that there's the abrigo garcia stuff which we've already read through that but just to me again people should go back and read that dismissal if you didn't get the chance before we'll look to it again but it was found of course that he was both uh vindictive and retaliatory taint as we've talked

0:30:56 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, is he going to be our first double taint AG?

0:30:59 Matt: About I want a senator to actually ask him you've been described as a vindictive taint what do you say to

0:31:02 Thomas: Todd Two -Taint? Yeah. Hey, is it true your nickname in college was Todd Two Taints?

0:31:10 Matt: That double taint dot then of course going to the slush fund which we We've talked about the Anti -Weaponization Fund, 1 .776 billion. We don't have to go on about that again. I think people are aware, who've been listening, but he said at that point in May when he was defending it, that he wouldn't rule out paying out rioters, including people that harmed other people pretty badly, including officers. He said there's no limitation on the claims. So ask him what he means by that. Did you really mean no limitations? Do you mean everybody who's since gone on to commit child sex abuses, or including the guy that we talked about before that used the promise of his payout that he'd been told by the pardon attorney that he was going to get money. He used that to try to pay off a child that he'd harmed. I mean, on and on. He wouldn't commit during that hearing, by the way, to saying in writing that he Was going to shut down the slush fund or whatever, the anti -weaponization fund. He Wouldn't really answer any questions about the immunity deal that he made. He said that it still stands basically under oath. Then we have to go into the fact that in USP Rhodes, as we talked about in April, while he is acting attorney general, they moved to vacate the the convictions of the people that Trump said would not be affected. The ones of the very worst offenders, Stuart Rhodes, the Proud Boys leadership, the people found guilty of seditious conspiracy who actually showed up to January 6th with real intent to do harm and to cause the kind of chaos that we saw, and potentially worse. We still don't really know the full extent of the plot, but they're walking in there with zip ties and some pretty ominous stuff. And then there's the fact that, just in case, we haven't really talked about this enough, the act of litigation at of Perlmutter v. Blanche, in which he is now the sitting acting librarian of Congress while he's the acting attorney general.

0:32:45 Matt: Busy man. Trump fired Carla Hayden, a black woman he did not like, and replaced Carla Haydon with noted librarian Todd Blanche.

0:32:53 Thomas: Yeah. Real renaissance man, that guy.

0:32:56 Matt: Yeah, that's right. Loves his books. The thing that I think isn't getting enough attention, besides it's funny, is that this is a legislative body. This is part of the Congress, right? He's running a part of the legislative branch while he is the head of DOJ. That's never happened. Nothing like that that has ever happened before. That's insane. So he needs to be asked about that. He's abusing the Vacancies Act just to take over the library. What else is he going to do? I mean, it's pretty bad. Todd Blanch, in that same CPAC appearance, we don't have time to play all of the amazing things he said at CPAC, but he also said that he wants to bring all of his biggest cases in red cities and states because he thinks that blue city juries are going to be biased, so he's going to do lots of forum shopping. He was pretty clear about that, which is why they prosecuted the second Comey case in the Eastern District of North Carolina rather than in D .C. or anywhere else. Isn't that an admission that you're venue shopping, courtroom shopping? You're looking for the right places to bring these cases. I mean, you're not supposed to be doing that. You're gaming it. He said that he had an ethical obligation to purge those career prosecutors he was talking about. An ethical obligation. The people who lawfully investigated Donald Trump. So what's that about? I've got to ask him about that. This is just a taste. There's so much more. But Todd Blanchett had the job, effectively. He was Deputy Attorney General pretty much from the beginning. He was second in command during Bondi. He's now been running the place. We know what he would do as AG. He's not going to be any different when he takes the job. So plenty of track record to run on here, and it's not good. So I really think that he needs to answer this stuff under oath. We'll cover the hearing when it happens, but these are the things you should be looking for. As well as the crypto thing that we mentioned that ProPublica covered, in which he had massive crypto holdings, transferred a lot of them to family, wrote a memo basically disbanding DOJ's crypto enforcement and regulation, stuff like that. Just really obvious things.

0:34:35 Thomas: There's just such a long list of things that he needs to go to prison for.

0:34:37 Matt: Too many things. Yeah.

0:34:39 Thomas: I mean, for real, I don't know that that's going to happen, but we need to start thinking that way.

0:34:44 Matt: He needs to be disbarred at least. He should not be the attorney general. He shouldn't be not a lawyer. He wouldn't be any kind of attorney. That's an easy one. We'll see. We don't have a date on the hearing yet, but I just wanted to preview all of that and just kind of put it all in one place to remind people about just kind of the same way we did with Emil Bove, who of course was also confirmed. But I think the Bove confirmation was much more under the radar. This one is going to be big. It's going to take over, I think, I hope. I think it's the right kind of coverage. And we've already got three Republicans who have no reason not to vote against him and to cause the president a lot of trouble. So let's see how it goes.

0:35:14 Thomas: Does Trump need to put someone is he pressured to do this now because of the he's like Vacancies Act crap or

0:35:21 Matt: Yeah, Blanche was, he's moved up within the department, but at some point you have to actually confirm him. I'm not sure exactly in the timing, but it must be, you know, it's coming up this way because he loves having acting, as he always says, you knows, whenever he possibly can, but I love acting. But he wouldn't be doing this if he didn't have to. So here we are. Yeah.

0:35:25 Thomas: Something yeah Yep, yeah, I love acting yeah oh I

0:35:42 Matt: Yeah. We'll be breaking that down. All right.

0:35:43 Thomas: Can't wait definitely uh vapid response or something we'll figure something out all right well let's take a break and uh see how much we can squeeze into the rest of the show we gotta talk uh world cup so matt the world cup uh what's going on with this and our is our country I'm surprised they're even letting people do it like it's actually

0:35:53 Ad: [Ad break 2 — ad music]

0:36:04 Thomas: Kind of surprising. I thought there would be more bullshit around this.

0:36:04 Matt: This country just needs to ask itself one question. Question. Are you ready for some football? The real kind. So Shakira has done like 20 World Cup songs now, and I really love the new one. It's pretty great. The video is a lot of fun to watch for obvious reasons, but I just wanted to play you the first 10 seconds of the video because it's extremely relevant to what we're going to be talking about.

0:36:33 Clip: WE ARE READY TOO!

0:36:36 Matt: So they're ready. That's the good news. We're not ready. We're not ready at all. And we haven't been. Let alone the logistics around some of this. I mean, they're telling people that the World Cup is being held in New York when of course it's being held on the Meadowlands in New Jersey where Tony Soprano buries people. They're telling people that it's being held in Boston when it's in fact being held in Foxborough where the Patriots play.

0:36:53 Matt: And yeah, it's just a really inconvenient train ride and drive away. But the Scottish have already figured this out. I've been watching the forums and they've already got this down.

0:36:50 Thomas: They got close enough. They always do that. Wow.

0:37:01 Matt: They're actually going to stay in Providence, which is much more affordable, and they're going to take chartered buses because the MBTA was going to charge them like $100 just to take the train that's usually five. That's logistics. Let's talk about actual visas because the big story this week from the World Cup was this referee who was turned away. The first Somali ever to make a World Cup referee list, Omar Artan.

0:37:22 Matt: Very well known in Africa, very well known in Somalia, very much something that the country was proud of.

0:37:26 Thomas: Wait, I'm surprised. So it wasn't a white guy that this happened to? Huh.

0:37:28 Matt: Yeah, not an Irish ref, it turns out. It turns out that the one country that Donald Trump has isolated out for the most abuse other than Haiti for the same reason. So he lands in Miami and he's very excited to be participating in the biggest event of his career on behalf of his country. Very one on ref, like legitimately great guy. And he'd already cleared. Now this is the part I want to explain. They changed the visa specifically in several different ways to make it easier for people to get here for the World Cup. Not necessarily the fans, we'll talk about that, but the people participating in the World Cup, and of course, as a referee, he's being paid by FIFA, so it's pretty easy. Usually when you're traveling on a B1, B2 tourist visa or business visa, you have to prove that you're not going to earn income, you're going to accrue income, as they say, inside the United States. That's easy. As a ref, they've actually already changed the rules in the Foreign Affairs Manual specifically to include these things. They kind of jammed it in, along with people volunteering for FIFA, which is kind of weird because usually volunteers are covered by a special charity provision. Obviously FIFA is the opposite of a charity.

0:38:24 Matt: It's a global organized crime ring.

0:38:25 Thomas: Yeah. It really is.

0:38:26 Matt: More to the point, they prepared for this possibility. They made it easy for people to come in as refs and staff. He stopped at the airport and grilled for 11 hours before he's turned back.

0:38:37 Thomas: 11. Wow.

0:38:38 Matt: 11 hours. And he's asked about his connections to Al-Shabaab, the terrorist group in Somalia. And again, you know, who knows, maybe his cousin or, yeah, right. This is the kind of stuff that they're supposed to work out at the consulate, not when you get to the airport. But it does go to a question that I get a lot and something that people do need to understand, especially I know we have a lot of international listeners. When you have a visa approved at the consulate, you would think you'd get to come here. Now, this is a non-immigrant visa. This is a tourist visa. It is, in this case, a business visa where he's coming for one discrete purpose. We know why he's coming and we know he's going to leave. And he's already been cleared for that by the consulate. And they're supposed to do all the security checks at that point. But they still have the right to grill you at the airport when you're trying to come in. So the visa is really only the first step.

0:38:41 Thomas: Oh, come on. Do they have a soccer team or something? Hmm.

0:39:18 Matt: And when you get there, CBP has every right to take you aside and ask you whatever they want to ask you and find ways to discriminate against you. Now, I wanted to mention this especially because I get questions about this all the time from clients. I've had a lot of listeners ask about this kind of stuff because we've seen so many horror stories of people either turned away at the airport who are looking forward to coming here, or people who were held in terrible conditions unexpectedly, including Canadians and British people and other Europeans that were thrown into detention, and again, you know what I'm saying, people that just never would have expected any of this to happen to them because they have visas, they're coming in, quote unquote, the right way. They're coming with plenty of money to spend it. Usually, those kinds of things are pretty predictable. They have been in the past. You know that if there's any indication, and then again, they can look through your phone. They can ask you questions. They can call the people you say are your contacts in the country. And they can try to figure out if, for example, you have a job lined up or if you're planning to get married as soon as you get here. Or if there is some other indication, you're trying to rent an apartment, right, for six months or whatever, if there's some indication that you're trying to stay, right? Those are the kinds of things people usually get turned around for.

0:40:18 Thomas: Meanwhile, this guy's in a ref uniform like I'm just reffing.

0:40:22 Matt: Whistle around his neck. Yep. Ready to go. We had every opportunity to figure out, and I'm sure the consulate in Somalia knows how to find out people connected to al -Shabaab. Like I assume that's a big part of the job. A lot of these other detentions are from people that have criminal records that they didn't realize were actually convictions because it happens all the time for immigration purposes.

0:40:38 Matt: The average traveler, and just want to be very clear about this, the average non-citizen traveler, we have so many millions of people come to this country every year. This stuff is an incredibly tiny percentage of this. And I have a lot of people that seem to believe this is incredibly common. It's really not. It is obviously something to be concerned about if you know that you have any kind of record or if there's anything else that might come up. Famously, there was someone who was denied at Boston and turned around who had pictures of Hassan Nasrallah's funeral from Hezbollah and potentially some memes or whatever that made it look like she might've supported him. That kind of stuff is enough. They can go through your phones. They have been a couple of cases. I think there's one famous French scientist, at least, of people who criticize Trump who've been turned around. It doesn't happen that often, but it has happened, and it is very political. The other part of it is for people that are coming here on what's called visa waivers, which is when you're coming from Europe and other countries where we've sort of made the gentleman's agreement that you can come here for a certain period of time without a visa because we have this agreement with you. In most cases, it's a developed nation. You're coming with a lot of money. We assume you're going to go back and not going to ever stay your visa, but you still have to fill out an ESTA, and they've made us do this too, a form basically, kind of a preclearance form before you land. There have been a number of stories now, just saw this in British media, because both England and Scotland are going to be playing in Boston at different times. And we've seen people already have their ESTAs denied that they'd had approved back in December or whatever. They're getting denied now.

0:41:56 Matt: I saw a story of one Scottish, a couple of Scottish brothers that had already spent 10,000 pounds on their trip because they're going to go all around the country. Finding out their ESTA had been denied a few days earlier.

0:42:05 Thomas: We don't want anyone spending money in our country. That's ridiculous.

0:42:11 Matt: It's even more ridiculous because we planned for this. We have these special exceptions.

0:42:16 Thomas: No, wait. The World Cup isn't like a spontaneous thing where they're like, ah, you got it now. Put it on in a month. Isn't it how it works? Like Oprah does it or something?

0:42:24 Matt: No, we have actually tried to plan ahead.

0:42:26 Thomas: Oh, they give you notice, huh?

0:42:28 Matt: Brazil, basically, if you're a ticket holder, you could come without a visa. It's like a special World Cup visa just for buying a ticket, basically, back in 2014. Same with Russia in 2018. They basically, if you had the ticket, that was your visa. You got to come in. Even Qatar did this much better than we did. Qatar never should have had the World Cup, obviously. That was super corrupt.

0:42:45 Matt: A place that actively is a slave labor. You remember, of course, in June 2025, there was a new travel ban. 12 countries completely excluded, including Somalia. But they had a carveout specifically for sports, because they knew that there were going to be people from these countries that were coming here for the Olympics, for the World Cup, specifically for persons performing a necessary support role, athletes, team members, and coaches for the World Cup or Olympics. And that was specifically carved out in the travel ban proclamation. So you've got kind of this fight between this very clear directive from the White House saying that they want to make sure that athletes can get here, and CBP just kind of doing whatever it wants. And that really goes to show that even when you try to make this carveout, it's still not that easy. The proclamation and the foreign affairs manual are just different things. And that's how it goes. This is just before the World Cup starting. I would expect over the next six weeks, we're going to be seeing any number of stories of people trying to come here. I really don't want to discourage people from coming here if they know that they have more or less

0:43:38 Matt: No issues. But I mean, yeah, at the same time, I think there's perhaps an outsized fear that's going on with regular people that don't have... But again, when I say regular people, I'm sure that Omar Artan, from what I can tell, is a regular Somali who doesn't really have any terror connections and has no reason to fear. And certainly, I can't say that if you don't make your social media private or know what's on your phone, CBP can certainly grab your phone as we've talked about any time at the airport. There are caveats, but most people are getting through. I guess that's being as optimistic as I can.

0:43:38 Thomas: I do. You yeah yeah yeah yeah

0:44:10 Matt: It's just an interesting moment in American history when we're going out of our way to be as unwelcoming as possible. And here we are.

0:44:16 Thomas: And then we're holding the biggest like most important event worldwide

0:44:17 Matt: Right. Exactly. The most important sporting event that there is. Also, the country that cares the least about it. So there's that

0:44:25 Thomas: That's for sure what an insult to the entire thing

0:44:28 Matt: And the whole spirit of it. There's one more thing too, with the Iranian team, they had a bunch of people stopped. And that's an interesting example, because that's a country we are actually at war with. And I can see that.

0:44:29 Thomas: America yeah Oh no, we're not. There's a ceasefire, it's all fine ceasefire

0:44:40 Matt: And it was always a special military operation anyway, right? So I mean, a country that we've had active hostilities with recently, and I can see how you'd be a lot more screeny about that. But there's an allegation that basically, we're keeping all of their support staff out just to disadvantage them, which could be happening that you're bombing and threatening

0:44:54 Thomas: That's a weird one, it is weird to have a World Cup with a team from a country that you are at war with, yeah

0:45:02 Matt: To commit genocide. I know, they actually have to set up in Mexico right across the border, and they're going to have to come across. And the CBP is basically saying, we're going to escort you and you can come in for the game and then leave the day of the game. Like, you know, we only want to get the media appearances that FIFA requires you to do.

0:45:15 Thomas: To be honest, I would be a little worried about a terrorist attack from like they certainly have motive I'll just

0:45:24 Matt: Sure. Fair enough. I'm sure this has happened before, but typically we don't let anybody in from countries like that. So they were bombing. So yeah, that's just some things to watch. We'll keep a watch on it and see how, uh, how it progresses. But I'm, I've been concerned about this for a while, pretty much since we announced the world cup under Trump. So we'll see.

0:45:32 Thomas: Say yeah Yeah I'm excited to watch I wish it wasn't in this country so that we could just watch and not worry about all the other crap stop giving us stuff all right well we've got to take a quick break and then get to a footnote always my favorite segment so right after this we'll get to that

0:46:00 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:46:00 Thomas: All right, Matt, you know they have the foot uh goat you're the foot yeah greatest footnoter of all Yeah, I don't know what it is but so stupid. Okay, yeah, what do you got for us

0:46:05 Matt: I'm the greatest liar of all footnotes or something. The Jafote, I think, is what you're looking for there. Really rolls off the tongue. All right. Patagonia, obviously the outdoor goods company. Really interesting thing that happened in 2022 where they essentially turned over their entire operations to becoming an advocacy and activist group. They're not really a company so much anymore. So this is an especially interesting fight because it's between I mean, the climate activist, who's a drag queen, who goes by Patagonia, who Patagonian really doesn't want beef with.

0:46:41 Matt: Like they have said very clearly in public, we do not want to have to sue you. We don't want to be against you. We support what you're doing. We have the same goals. But unfortunately, she named herself Patagoniana and she's using exactly the same font as Patagoniano for her logo, for Patagonina.

0:46:55 Thomas: Oh, and as a fontsman, I'm sure you spotted that

0:46:58 Matt: I can't quite identify offhand what it is, but it's a nice looking, it's a classic. When you see the Patagonia font, you know, that's Patagonia. It's a very distinctive font. Okay, sure.

0:47:05 Thomas: I don'T know any of this but sure I'll say one one might what I don' t is patty is it a regional thing or am I just I don''t know patty gun yeah sorry

0:47:12 Matt: Don't think so, but maybe people wear it a lot around here. It could really be more of a New England thing because it's cold here. The problem is, though, she had to go and reproduce the logo, and then she's trying to register it as a mark. This is more of an genetic topic.

0:47:15 Thomas: It's probably just me question

0:47:31 Matt: That's a very good question.

0:47:31 Thomas: If this is a drag queen is it she are those the pronouns I don't know I'm not into drag queen stuff I don't know how that all works maybe they're maybe they always use she her pronouns or I don''t know

0:47:39 Matt: Ah, so she, her, they, them went in drag, he, him out of drag. I will say that Patagonia is being sued under their legal name.

0:47:47 Thomas: Sure, she/her, because it's the character the drag yeah sure makes sense just

0:47:49 Matt: Right. That makes sense. Patagonia isn't trying to take her livelihood. They're not trying to take their money. They just want a dollar, basically in a symbolic victory and they want an injunction to say that this person can't use a logo that looks exactly like their logo using a font that looks exactly like they're fine and Again, they don't want to be bullying a queer activist. It's I really believe them when they say this it sounds like they tried not to do this. Yeah, I feel like there's a compromise here they can probably reach where she can use the name and she doesn't have to necessarily sell merch using the exact logo she can still sell her own kind of merch but it isn't like a clear-cut case. I was kind of looking at it from both sides trying to get a sense of how this is going to play out. Because there's the case of Jack Daniels VIP products. And from 2023, you might remember, we have talked about, but it involved, I think it was a dog toy or something. Yeah. Yeah, dog treats. And they're like the exact Jack Daniel's label,

0:48:03 Thomas: Wondering, yeah, that seems pretty, yeah yeah I don'T get why the drag queen IS doing this it seems kind of kind of shitty I don´t know Is this the dog thing, yeah right

0:48:42 Matt: Right? You just can't do that. Like, it's too confusing. Yeah?

0:48:45 Thomas: Oh, so the argument that even though it's like, well, it's a different thing. I don't remember which way that one went.

0:48:50 Matt: They said, well, it is a parody, right? So there is a right to parody when it's not a source identifier for its own goods.

0:48:56 Thomas: Oh, is Patagonia parodying Patagonian? Maybe? Yeah.

0:48:59 Matt: Yeah. Well, that's the problem though. But she's trying to register it as a mark for like her own apparel, her own marketing.

0:49:06 Thomas: Gotcha. Yeah. That doesn't seem right.

0:49:08 Matt: I think Jack Daniels does actually apply here because there was a unanimous court that found that you can parody it to a point, but when it's actually something that is like the exact thing, like the thing you identify by, there has to be a limit. It does go both ways, but I agree with what you're saying that they do have similar aims.

0:49:26 Matt: It's a commercial enterprise that she's trying to make herself into that is her mark, that is exactly like theirs. Are people going to be genuinely confused between a drag queen and outdoor company? Is that really possible? Yeah.

0:49:26 Thomas: I mean, if you're using the logo and stuff, who knows? Also, if they're saying they're a company that does activism, it doesn't mean they're only in whatever space they were in before, right?

0:49:48 Matt: The question comes down to, are you trying to use this mark that is distinctly like, I mean, everybody can picture the Jack Daniels logo. If you've ever seen a bottle of Jack Daniel's and it's very distinctive font and logo and same with Patagonia, it has its own very distinct kind of thing. Are you trying to use that for your own purpose or are you actually using it for parody? And with the dog toy, you could really think that it was endorsed by Jack Daniels because it looks just like, you know, bad Spaniels or whatever.

0:50:11 Thomas: Get your dog drunk. That could be the product.

0:50:13 Matt: Right. This thing though.

0:50:15 Thomas: They're finally going to do a new line of business. Yeah.

0:50:16 Matt: So yeah, because alcohol is going down. People aren't drinking as much. You got to expand different species.

0:50:21 Thomas: Yeah, we need a new customer base. Dogs. Dogs are the last people that need alcohol. They're the lead. You need to find a more depressed, but cats, cats, cats should be drinkers. I don't think dogs are drinkers, dogs are the ones that are like, well, I'm straight edge.

0:50:36 Matt: That's right. Cats have a reason to drink.

0:50:36 Thomas: I'm just happy all the time. I need no substances as a dog.

0:50:40 Matt: Cats have to deal with us. There is also the acquiescence. I think that Patty's best defense here is that Patagonia over the years was admiring her work rightfully and trying to leave space because they wanted to give her an opportunity to do this advocacy. But at some point there is like a latches defense that they just kind of let me do it.

0:50:56 Matt: There was never an agreement about it. It's just kindof how it was. More than anything, though, you've got a social justice company suing a social justice activist. They really don't want any of this, which is why the big news and reason I wanted to cover it this week is it, as of yesterday, on the day we're recording, June 9th, it went to arbitration.

0:51:12 Matt: So it was supposed to go to jury trial and it is now going to private arbitration? I really hope they can work it out.

0:51:15 Thomas: How does that work?

0:51:16 Matt: Parties can choose to.

0:51:17 Thomas: So they just chose to. Yeah I'm so used to like, well, you know, Verizon forced an arbitration agreement on the customer or whatever. This was like, they're like, let's just do that.

0:51:26 Matt: Yeah, it makes sense. This is, I think, the company really trying, from what I can tell, I don't know how much is public right now, but I think they really are trying to avoid going through an entire trial. Nobody wants that. It's actually one of the most interesting trademark disputes I've ever seen. And it's way more interesting than the Jack Daniels thing, too, because of the social justice stuff and the causes that she's appropriating their logo for a good cause when they themselves are already doing good things.

0:51:48 Matt: So I thought the whole thing was pretty interesting and interesting to see how they resolve it. My prediction is she's going to have to bend on the logo thing because that's just too much. But she can still keep the name, the persona. I mean, it's a great name. We'll see.

0:51:57 Thomas: How much insight do we get into that? Like none, right?

0:52:00 Matt: Yeah, I think we'll just find out. I'm sure they'll make some kind of announcement when they reach an agreement or maybe not, but probably. I'm not sure that Patagonia is going to want to say what it is.

0:52:07 Thomas: Just, we basically get the end result and that's about it. Really interesting. I know a lot of people were talking about that one.

0:52:13 Matt: Shout out to Reddit user HeyKalf. It's a good suggestion. A lot of upvotes and comments on that one. Make sure that we got into it. It might be worth getting into deeper sometime, but I just want to be sure we touched it today.

0:52:23 Thomas: Awesome. All right, Matt. Well, thanks so much for the breakdowns. Thanks everyone for listening. Really appreciate you. And we will see you next time.

0:52:30 Matt: Thanks a lot.

0:53:07 Thomas: I have to join on Patreon to unlock this. I'm logged into the, I was logged into dear old dad. So hold on. It's not a company approved expense over there. So let me just quickly change my credentials here.

0:53:11 Matt: You haven't decided what level you want to join at yet. If I can recommend, it's a pretty good show to pay for.

0:53:25 Thomas: Something that is not talked about enough in society. When you are a 400,000 tab person, the tab gets so small that the X out and the tab are pretty much the same size like it's a it's one of those like conundrums one of those uh weird paradoxes dogs are the last people that need alcohol cats cats should be drinkers

0:53:34 Matt: Cats have a reason to drink.