WTW134: Graham Platner's Me Too Moment?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:03 Clip: What's so scary about the woke mob? How often you just don't see them coming. Anywhere you see diversity, equity, and inclusion, you see Marxism and you see woke principles being pushed. Wokeness is a virus more dangerous than any pandemic hands down. The woke monster is here and it's coming for everything.

0:00:33 Clip: Instead of go-go boots, the seductress green M&M will now wear sneakers.

0:00:42 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Where There's Woke. I'm Thomas. That over there is Lydia. How you doing?

0:00:45 Lydia: Hello. I'm saying hello for the first time. Yes, I am well. How are you?

0:00:49 Thomas: Finally, we've done it! It's like we're doing a trick shot, like for YouTube, you know, like an elaborate trick shot. But it's just saying hi and starting the show. We've had, gosh, 20 -30 takes of this.

0:01:02 Lydia: It's been a whole to -do, truly.

0:01:04 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, the combination of things messing up and us messing up. You know, there's too many ways. But yeah, so patrons will know that we've now done two parts of bonuses on Graham Plattner.

0:01:09 Lydia: Count

0:01:19 Thomas: Too. Yeah. I think when you don't do the research, you're just lost. Like you're just not sure what to do. Yeah, well, so here's the deal, Wokies. I'm going to level with you. What's funny is that from the very beginning of the Graham Plattner thing that I just wanted to kind of get off my chest, I wanted to talk about, at the time, it was just the text message message article.

0:01:27 Lydia: Them. Yep. Just like vocal barf. I just do nonsense on the recording. Never

0:01:49 Thomas: And I mean, obviously, the Nazi tattoo thing was the main thing I wanted to talk about. And then I just never got to it because we had so much to do. And now that there was another, a second Nazi tattoo has hit the Graham Plattner. No, a second ex -girlfriend thing. I don't know. A second Me Too has hit the Plattners. I want to talk about that. Admittedly, this is more of a serious inquiries only because I kind of wanted to to talk about some interesting things about these articles but we already did two grand platiners on where there's woke bonus feed it felt weird to do like the third one but on a different show you know it just didn't feel right so wokies

0:01:56 Lydia: Got to the text message article. Yeah, they're bonded.

0:02:30 Thomas: I hope you'll yeah I hope you'll be okay with a Graham Plattner show here because there is some really interesting stuff and I'm very curious to get lydia's views on this you haven't followed much of this right um the the latest stuff yeah Yeah.

0:02:42 Lydia: I've only seen, yeah, I've only seen like tiny bits and pieces and I've purposely been trying to avoid it because I figured I'd be back in this chair talking about it. So, yeah.

0:02:48 Thomas: Yeah. It's interesting. I'm really, really curious for your take on it. So we're going to talk Graham Plattner and, you know, in some ways, maybe I'll pose it in the form of a clickbait question. Does the New York Times want to kill Graham Plettner's campaign?

0:03:10 Lydia: Mm.

0:03:10 Thomas: That's the question mark.

0:03:11 Lydia: Like, why are they going so hard on this kind of thing? Mm.

0:03:13 Thomas: It is weird. The ways that this one article went, and I can't put it all in the New York Times, because actually, I think the Wall Street Journal was the first one to talk about the text one, but the New York Time saw fit to publish it as well. It's just weird. So that's what we're going to talk about. And of course, the next thing that happened, we should talk about that, which is also weird. I don't know where I stand on that exactly. So I think we're gonna talk it out. I think a leftist line on it is that, you know, Israel and, you you know, the mainstream Democrats are coming after him with all they've got. I don't know if I exactly buy that. I don'T think that's the only thing that's going on. You know, like, I think there's, it just doesn't, it doesn't line up with some of the reasons that stuff came out, you know?

0:03:44 Lydia: Mm -hm. Mm, hmm.

0:04:01 Thomas: But it is weird. Okay, so let's take our usual first break, which you can avoid at patreon .com slash where there's woke. That's where you can get parts one and two of this, if you'd like. Like that's where, Hey, long story short, he's not a secret Nazi, but you know, it is what it is. That's, that's my view anyway.

0:04:18 Lydia: Yeah. It is what it is.

0:04:19 Thomas: And the Atlantic sucks and posted a conservative op -ed that was terrible. Even if you might've been sympathetic to the view in it, it's just sloppy and shitty. Yeah. Yeah. And that's another thing you got is Fox news trying to play it both ways where they're like, oh, Graham Platner, he said something problematic and he might be pro -gay.

0:04:31 Lydia: And Fox News is morality police. That's the other thing we learned in those bonus episodes.

0:04:46 Thomas: And you're like, what? You can't be mad at both of those things. You got to pick one, Fox News. You don't get to be mad about both. Anyway, lots of stuff like that. Support that and lose the ads on the Patreon.

0:05:03 Ad: [Ad break 1 — ad music]

0:05:03 Thomas: Okay. So at the time that I first was going to talk about this, it actually was mostly about the tattoo. And then this article dropped and it is titled, well, I didn't read the Wall Street Journal one because it's the paywalled one. You've taught me your ways and I've gotten through the paywall, but it doesn't really say anything different.

0:05:26 Lydia: That's fine.

0:05:26 Thomas: So I'm just going to do the New York Times one, I think. So the New York times article is called Plattner's texts with women in concern campaign as Senate race took off. What have you absorbed? I'm just curious. What have you observed in the zeitgeist in the atmosphere about this? Not from the latest one from the text one.

0:05:44 Lydia: I guess, actually, I'm not sure what's yeah, what's exactly text and what's exactly following. Are the cheating allegations part of the texts or no?

0:05:45 Thomas: It's blended together. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. Yeah that's the that's the text pretty much.

0:05:54 Lydia: OK, then, yes. Then I absorbed that as part of it, that he cheated on his wife and he might be misogynist in a variety of ways.

0:06:02 Thomas: Yeah yeah that one comes from more the the second thing but that's fine. So here's what's weird about this. Would you imagine that they have any texts?

0:06:13 Lydia: I would expect them to if they're going to be reporting on that.

0:06:17 Thomas: Yeah I kind Kind of would, too. Like, just forget everything else. Yeah.

0:06:19 Lydia: Just Just a journalistic standard. Yeah.

0:06:21 Thomas: Of the covering the campaign, a Senate campaign this close to the primary, by the way, like, you know, and the second one was really crazily timed to be right before the primary. You know, in a way that was like, OK, I would expect there to be either texts or if not texts, I will expect some women to be complaining about it or something like some. And I don't mean that in a derogatory way. I mean, like, yeah, yeah. Like somebody coming forward and being like, yeah, he was texting me inappropriately, et cetera, et cetera.

0:06:47 Lydia: I was bothered by this. Yeah. Yeah. Mm -hmm.

0:06:56 Thomas: Here's what I just really can't get over. And there's something, look, ultimately, I will tell you this. Ultimately, I think the guy's got some problems with misogyny. I think he's possibly, it seems like the evidence is at least, you know, at least has acted pretty badly toward women. Spoiler alert. But all that said, And that mainly, that came out more in the second thing. So in this first article, which doesn't really have to do with that exactly, the source of it is just the campaign manager who left, the Genevieve McDonald.

0:07:29 Thomas: And even worse than that, I gotta tell you, I find this to be pretty unfair. Like, it's great that we have more access to information and me too. I wouldn't want things to be swept under the rug per se. But this is something that would never have been published, I would say, even 10 years ago. I don't think this ever would have been published in a major newspaper. Obviously, you know, you're going to have internet, whatever. But I don'T think a major newsroom would have done this because the only source was the Plattner campaign's political director before leaving in October. Now, Genevieve McDonald says she left, and I believe her, because of the Reddit trove of stuff. That seems to be the thing that did it. And I will tell you that for me, when I'm trying to evaluate stuff like this, you know, just as a skeptic and not even like necessarily as a skeptical, but just trying to find what I think is fair and accurate, something I spent a lot of time thinking about and trying to be fair about things that counts quite a bit against somebody. Like if your campaign manager left, especially a woman left

0:08:34 Thomas: Because of this Reddit trove of thing, I think that says something that definitely counts against him. But what's weird is that it seems like this campaign manager left said that, oh, the Reddit stuff means he just isn't fit for being senator. And then that kind of fizzled. And the thing is, Graham Plattner has been very open about his struggles with PTSD, with alcohol, with all this stuff. Now, that doesn't excuse like blankets to obviously like that doesn'T excuse any behavior. It might be a reason, a sympathetic reason for some behavior, in my opinion, but it doesn't excuse like any and everything. But it does seem like for voters, at least, and I'm kind of with them because obviously main voters elected him in the primary pretty overwhelmingly. The Reddit thing. Yeah.

0:09:24 Lydia: Yes, I did absorb that. I did see that news.

0:09:27 Thomas: Yeah, the Reddit thing didn't really get to them. And I'm kinda with them on this. It doesn't mean it's all great. There's some stuff in there, obviously, I don't like. And we talked a lot about it.

0:09:36 Lydia: I think it's different, too, if you're talking about voting for a person versus actively campaigning for them to be the nominee. You know what I mean? Like, I think that threshold is probably different. And I would understand a person being like, that's enough for me to say, like, I'm not comfortable getting a paycheck for doing this. I don't want to be affiliated with this.

0:09:54 Thomas: Yeah, I think so. Part of me wonders if that was more career saving on her part now. Like when it all is said and done, it seems like that attack fizzled and then it just seemed like she kind of wants to bring him down. Now, I don't know. Could it be just she's that disgusted by the Reddit stuff? But I don'T know. Now, I feel like she anticipated that being a bigger scandal than it was. And then when it wasn't, she didn't know what to do is what it kind of feels like to me. But that's purely my opinion. I could be wrong. But anyway, you know, I also wanted to say this while we're on that topic of campaigning versus voting. I think voting for candidates like this is an incredibly weird fucking thing. Like the more I think about it, and I think we, especially as Democrats, as progressives need to maybe rethink this a little bit. We're thinking about races like this as though there's some perfect person out there.

0:10:56 Thomas: And if we don't get that person, then it's like, ah, fuck that. And I'm strumming a littlebit, but also it's, like, what kinds of people run for stuff, you know, is what I want to say. And it's this weird thing where, you know what Joe Biden said, and I think in some ways this is a bit of a bullshit thing, but also kind of true, don't judge me against the almighty judge me against the fucking whatever the other opposite the opponent or something like that which is kind of true now it doesn't mean like I've always said I've said this for now going on 10 years the time to fight it out is primaries I have no problem with anyone who voted against Grant Plattner obviously in the primary that's everyone's right to do and there probably was a better candidate in there somewhere but we don't get to pick our candidates I know it sounds weird but like we actually don't You know, like by the time most people come to paying attention to, all right, let me take a look at who I get to vote for in this primary, you know, for most people. Now, there's some people who are in on the ground floor in their working campaigns and they're very involved. And that's that's awesome. Those people are great. That's not very many people.

0:12:01 Thomas: The overwhelming majority of people come do it. And I got let me look at the newspaper. Paper here. Let me look at the ballot. Let me see who's there.

0:12:07 Lydia: And the machines already been happening in the background. Yeah mm

0:12:10 Thomas: Yes. And because it's a, we're electing somebody that we all have to be okay with in a way. Well, not in away, like all Democrats or all voters or at least enough of them have to be okay. With it's a, just a weird thing. It's never going to be someone we all like. And again, this isn't to excuse any behavior, but it is a weird thing. Like we're kind of stuck with that moment where we're like, all right, who is it? Okay. Well it's these people. And Graham Platner, for whatever reason, has just way more momentum than anybody else.

0:12:44 Thomas: There wasn't really a viable alternative. So I don't think you can do the thing where you're like, not not going to do it. I mean, you can, you're free to do whatever you want. But if you're trying to be reasonable and you're trying to bring about a better country, which I am, you kind of have to just vote for the better option in every single case. We can't spare anything.

0:13:02 Thomas: There's no, there's no sparing any seats. And so it's, it's a little weird. I don't know if that made sense. It wasn't a fully fledged thought, but I don'T think we can think of it from the standpoint of like, well, there'S got to be somebody better. There'S got to be something better. Like the thing I hear a lot is like, it'S a country of 350 million people or whatever, you know, surely there'S someone, first off, off. It's a main election. So, but secondly, that just isn't it. Like we don't select a citizen at random for this. Like it has to be of the group of people who have whatever the thing is that makes you want to fucking do this, which is not, it's harder and harder. And it's honestly pretty much always going to coincide with some amount of narcissism.

0:13:43 Thomas: Not always, but like a lot of the time. So like you're starting almost kind of in the hole in a way, like you'RE already like negative on most people who are going to try to run, especially men, honestly. I don't think it's quite valid to philosophically look at it like, well, there's got to be a better person. It's like you're stuck with what you got. You got to go with it. And so it's just a hard thing to judge. This is a hard things to look into. Again, I think voting for someone else in the primary was perfectly reasonable, but I think it is also perfectly reasonable at this stage where we are. I think it is entirely reasonable to say, you know what? I don't fucking care. Tell me the policy platform. I will vote for the policy plan. I don'T think it's okay to like, therefore try to like bash people who are concerned with the misogyny and the claim. Like, I donT think that's okay. I think that'S inappropriate. And I think people have to do that too much because they have to get into the mindset of us versus them with everything.

0:14:42 Thomas: And so if they've made the decision that they're going to support Platner, oftentimes that coincides with like rationalizing a lot of stuff about why actually all these attacks are unfair and all that. So I don't think that's valid, but I do think we live in an age of Nazis taking over the whole fucking country and there's no breathing room anymore. And honestly, at every stage, we need to vote for who is going to be the most left.

0:15:07 Thomas: And after this one, you don't always get to pick the winner. After that phase, you go to the next phase. Well, who's it going to be, Plattner or Susan Collins. And what sucks about where we are now is that I don't really think we have the option to hold our nose and vote in a way that that's going to undermine the election. Like it puts us in a tough spot because if we don't rally around whoever ends up being the candidate and they lose, then we're fucked.

0:15:39 Thomas: So it's like this weird spot where it's like you can't endorse everything he's ever done and said, but you don't want to contribute. I don't think we want to bother taking any time contributing to an atmosphere that will not elect the Democrat. You know what I mean? Like, it's just for me, every vote is so crucial. Like one Senate vote can really be the difference, the difference between trans people living and dying between a fucking war that Trump is going to start or continue. And like that one vote is is so many lives. It could be.

0:15:53 Lydia: Mm hmm I mean what we saw how consequential that was when Manchin was that vote right like that is a consequential position to be in.

0:16:14 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, even worse than that. Yeah, yeah. And especially now with so little check on on Trump's power. Anyway, I just want to take that little detour for a sec because it's just I've been trying to think about that and I can't quite put it into words. It's just you're dealt a hand, you know, it's like you're dealt a poker hand. And sometimes it's a bunch of twos and fives. And you're like, I guess this five I got, you Know, because you're not you You can't be like, well, there's plenty of aces in that deck. Like, I'm just going to fold or something. You know, it's like you don't, it doesn't work. That is kind of a good analogy. Like, unless you somehow are the one dealing the cards and you have some control over that, which you shouldn't be, I don't think anyone is, you kind of go with a hand you're dealt and you pick the best cards out of there, sort of, to make it work a little bit. So coming back to this New York Times article about the text. So not only do we have no texts, not only do wehave no receivers of texts complaining about it, what this is is McDonald saying that Graham's wife told the campaign like a year or more ago, typical campaign thing, tell me everything that might be a problem. Well, just warning you, giving you campaign a heads up, there were these texts

0:17:29 Thomas: And that's the fucking source.

0:17:32 Lydia: That's really weird.

0:17:33 Thomas: That feels shitty to me. Yeah.

0:17:34 Lydia: Yeah I think what bothers me about that is that's information that she was aware of when she signed on to be part of the campaign and now she's using it in a way like it just does not feel right to me.

0:17:42 Thomas: Yeah. Especially as the primary source. Right.

0:17:48 Lydia: If you're not okay with that then you wouldn't have signed on for his campaign.

0:17:52 Thomas: Yeah, she didn't leave because of this. She left because of the Reddit stuff, allegedly. And now she's bringing this up.

0:17:56 Lydia: But now she is going to bring this up and and say that that's disqualifying. Well, it wasn't when you signed on to be his campaign manager.

0:18:01 Thomas: And again, if his wife and we should listen to this video that she made, it's kind of interesting. It's a little long and rambly, but I find it interesting. Interesting actually yeah why don't we do that let's let's do that now so she put out this like Instagram thing that's

0:18:15 Clip: ...response to a couple of news articles that are out there about my marriage to Graham. If anybody knows me and Graham personally, you know that we got married in 2023. and we love each other deeply so it makes me really angry disappointed and I find it really shameful that there's a group of media outlets and people who are willing to spread gossip instead of talking about real issues that Graham is is is running on like health care and education and child care um I'm walking up and down my road right now and this is like my 20th take this is very hard to do but um I just really wanted to make sure that everyone knows that that Graham and I have a great marriage.

0:19:30 Clip: Being newly married is hard. Being newly married and going through infertility is hard being newly married going through infertility and a Senate campaign is is hard I don't even know if I have the right words to describe what we've been going through but um our marriage counselor helps uh my personal counselor helps graham's personal counselor hopes um and we work on our mental health every day um no marriage is perfect and I I don't want a perfect marriage I want my marriage and I want to be married to Graham, sorry, black flies. Um, I knew the man that I married is wonderful and dynamic and probably genius. Um. I knew the man had been through an immense amount of violent, active combat. And, um, he's been in therapy for years. I just, I admire the fuck out of him. Um, so when there are news articles about our marriage, it's just extra shitty.

0:20:58 Thomas: A whole can of worms because for some people the whole Graham Platner thing has been like finally we've got a manly man on the left which I think is fucking stupid and then they're like ah he sent his wife out to go do his thing for and so that all to me was stupid if you could have seen her while she was doing it she's incredibly normal just so like if you She couldn't tell by her voice. Like, I could imagine thinking if someone looked or seemed fake. To me, she just comes across as very, like, regular person.

0:21:28 Lydia: I think I could be wrong, but it felt like to me, this was something that bothered her enough where she was like, I have to say something. It did not feel to me like it was the campaign being like, hey, Amy, you need to go do this. It felt like she was not, I can't just sit down and let this slide. Like, this is really bothering me. I'm going to say something. And so I appreciate that. But yeah, that's a tough position to be in. That sucks.

0:21:57 Thomas: Yeah. And I think the more I think about it, with something like, oh, there were texts a year and a half ago or whatever, if none of the receivers of texts are saying anything, you know, for now, and if that changed, that changed. But I mean, at this time, and his wife isn't wanting to make it a story and they don't have any texts. All they have is an ex -campaign person saying his wife told me that like it just that fucking sucks. I'll be honest. Like, it doesn't mean that he's done nothing wrong. I'm not saying that, but I do think this sucks.

0:22:25 Lydia: Disclose this during the vetting. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:22:32 Thomas: That's not a story that should happen. I really don't think so. So, yeah,

0:22:35 Lydia: I think it's incredibly violating. I think, again, it's one of those things where that stuff is brought up during the vetting process to determine whether or not this candidate is viable. And if that is brought Up during the veting process, and they continue with the candidate, then they have decided that the candidate is viable. So it being brought up in this way is just really, like I said earlier, it feels gross the way that it was brought up, in this particular position.

0:23:00 Thomas: And it sort of has like a bootstrapping thing where it's like, because she brought it up is the only thing they're reporting. So it's weird to be like, and I think it's valid to say, hey, there are these texts. That's something to look out for. The reason it's something to look out for is in case somebody he texted were to break it and have like a very negative story about it, maybe a negative experience. Yeah, if it was something like that you know that's something to vet but then to have the very warning or just like alert be the news story that doesn't make sense like there's something about it's like a snake eating its own tail. I don't think that should have happened well

0:23:23 Lydia: Like Eric Swalwell, right? Like, it's that exact thing, yeah.

0:23:40 Lydia: I'm kind of surprised, yeah, like, wouldn't you think that there'd be NDAs and confidentiality and stuff

0:23:45 Thomas: So they did try to have that's part of the reporting too is and maybe they should have before they came on yeah maybe that's a good point like he hasn't run for anything there may be some level of like that inexperience in that. They tried to get her to sign one on the way out, allegedly, and she wouldn't do it. I don't think this should have been a story. I really don't. I think it's dumb. Now, and then we got a series of coverage that was like, texting controversy. Is it a problem? You know, they do like all that stuff where it's like, we're just asking questions out here.

0:24:00 Lydia: And she wouldn't do

0:24:17 Thomas: New York Times, like, ahead of meeting with Bernie Sanders, texts are, you know, it's just crap like that. So I think that was bullshit. Now, I think we got to talk about this, like, Me Too -ish article or Me Too feeling article. I have read this thing a lot of times because I really am trying to get a grasp on how I feel about it. For me, it's right on the line. Like, it is not as bad as that other one in terms of I do not think they should have published it. I am not sure on this one because in a certain sense, well, like with the texting, at a certain point, I am like, wait, do we have that level of information about any other senator? You know, like, is that like a normal amount of vetting that we do for a senator? Do we do we know that really?

0:24:17 Lydia: It if it is they're they're not disclosing it you know at any point with the media I guess so who

0:25:08 Thomas: Yeah, it's like it became a thing. So this Times exclusive, June 4th says now about a week ago, several women who dated Graham Plattner recall unsettling behavior. The subheading is the Democratic candidate for Senate in Maine could be charming, women said in interviews, but some found his actions intimidating and disturbing. This interviews some of his ex -girlfriends. Friends it's too long to go through the whole thing but my experience of reading this was wow there's some stuff that seems kind of bad in here obviously there's something some bad stuff potentially quite bad depending on if you believe it and also if it's 14 years ago or if it'S 10 years ago if itS some of the stuff that's further away ago like how much do the voters not care because it's already he's already been open that like hey I had a lot of problems and that it does raise an interesting question where it's like and I think that with the texting thing where it'S like if he has run on a campaign of, Hey, I am a fuck up because I have

0:25:32 Lydia: Knows yeah

0:26:04 Thomas: PTSD drinking problem. And if he's been like open about that, there's a certain extent to which it's like, if you publish a story that's like Graham used to drink, it's Like, yeah, he, okay. He's that's not a story because he's running on that. Like he's, you know, he's very open. Now, if it's something that's worse than that, you Know, that might be a different story. So obviously it's, it'S a judgment call, but some amount of it is like, I don't really know that this is news. But when I read this this through carefully, like for the fourth time, all of the bad stuff comes from a Republican. And not just that, it's somebody who specifically started a group over, no, no. She didn't work for Collins. There was allegations, but there was no working for Susan Collins.

0:26:43 Lydia: Yeah susan collins niece no I'm just kidding okay oh

0:26:51 Thomas: But she not only supported Kavanaugh, but started a grupo of people, of enthusiasts enthusiasts of Kavanaugh was great and that B word is lying, essentially. Then you got to do the thing where it's like, well, okay, no perfect victims. And it doesn't mean like if she was a piece of shit about that allegation, it doesn'T mean that her allegations are wrong. But what strikes me is almost the only stuff that's at all serious is from her. There's one other thing that is sort of, okay. Let's go through. I think I need to just go through the facts, but

0:27:20 Lydia: Yeah tell me what they They are. Yeah.

0:27:22 Thomas: I first want to to tell you how deceptive, I don't know if it's intentional, but I find this article deceptif, whether intentionally or not. Yeah. Like stuff like this. So for one, the campaign provided, like, I want to say like six of his exes or like some number of his Exes who had nothing but good things to say about him.

0:27:41 Lydia: Yeah, this guy dated a lot. Jeez.

0:27:43 Thomas: I know, which is, which on one hand, I do feel like doesn't obviously necessarily prove anything. It's also not nothing. Like I do feeling like if you're alleging that someone is just fundamentally like a misogynist or something. I think it is like, it's not nothing to say like, yeah, I mean, there's a bunch of women who I've dated who have nothing but good things to say about me. And then a Republican who says bad things, like it's evidence, you know, like I think but listen to the way they describe that. Amid the turmoil, Mr. Plattner worked the phones, rolling through calls to ex -girlfriends who might publicly acknowledge that while he may have been a bad boyfriend, he was in fact a decent guy. Kind of loaded, right?

0:28:19 Thomas: And then they say in interviews with the New York Times on Wednesday, several women did just that, describing Mr. Mr. Plattner, as a fun and caring partner and saying they felt safe with him.

0:28:28 Lydia: That's a really weird setup.

0:28:28 Thomas: Some remain friends with him to this day, years after the relationship ended. Isn't that weird to be like, well, this fucking asshole tried to find anyone he could. Anyway, they had really good things to say about him. Not just like, oh, yeah, he was fine. Like they felt safer, whatever. You could, you know, count that for what it is. But that's a shitty way to describe that, because you could also pretty easily say say Mr. Plattner was easily able to call ex -girlfriends who said not only good things, but pretty great things about, you know, like that would still be factual. I'm not saying you have to kiss his ass, but the decision to write it like that is a decision. And

0:28:34 Lydia: That's very bizarre. Yeah mm -hmm

0:29:06 Thomas: It's not, that's not fucking news. That's not just the facts decision.

0:29:09 Lydia: -huh that's drama. It's drama making.

0:29:09 Thomas: That'S, yeah, it's, it'S, um, spin you're putting on the ball or whatever they say, you Know, like, that'S you doing that, New York Times. And then it says, but in extensive conversations over the past two months, three Three other women, okay, so three, three other women who had been romantically involved with Mr. Plattner offered a far more complicated assessment describing volatile and toxic relationships that were unsettling and at times emotionally wrenching. Okay, so I'm trying to track it because later on they say this article is based on interviews with more than two dozen people, including six women who had been romantically involved with Mr. Plattner. Oh, I suppose if we're doing math, maybe that means he had three good ones, they had three bad ones. I don't know. He's got a 50 % batting average on his exes. Ah, who among us? No. But when they say stuff like that with more than two dozen people, that gives you a certain impression. You know, we're used to these Me Too articles where it's like 4 ,000 women said that this asshole was a fucking rapist, but the two dozen serves almost no function here. Like all of this article is based on one, like

0:30:14 Thomas: Pretty much everything. There's one thing from another person and that's like it.

0:30:14 Lydia: Why did they do that?

0:30:20 Thomas: I don't know. Yeah.

0:30:26 Ad: [Ad break 2 — ad music]

0:30:26 Lydia: Does it indicate like when these relationships happened? Like were they recent or old or?

0:30:30 Thomas: So the Republican one was the oldest one. So 2013 to 2015. You know, the one that, you know, I'd be more concerned about is a Democrat who dated him, says casually off and on between 2019, 2021. This is the one that I find very credible and obviously not good. Uh, yeah, pretty, pretty soon before his wife. Yeah. For some reason they frame it as her response to the Reddit posts. I don't know why, but that's how they decided to like introduce this person. When I saw the old comments that he made online, she said, I recognized a version of him that I had experiences with. And this is the, again, this is a Democrat. This Is the woman that, um, I find, I'll just say, I find her way more credible than the Republican.

0:30:47 Lydia: Like right before his wife. Yeah, hmm. Mm hmm.

0:31:15 Thomas: So that's Jenny somebody, 41, a Maine Democrat. And they have her saying that when I saw the old comments, I recognize the version of my experience with. And then that's not her for paragraphs and paragraphs. But it's almost like they put that quote kind of right after introducing the Republican accuser, who just before that said, recalled him as cavalierly contemptuous of women's emotions, of our, quote, weakness, and that his offensive online posts reminded me of just how much he hated women. So that's the Lindsey Fifield, the Republican person who started a group over Kavanaugh.

0:31:50 Thomas: And so you have that like extremely more damning negative one. Then next you put in the, I recognize a version of him that I had experience with, you know? Okay. You know, like it's not, it's Not good. Yeah. Doesn't seem like it'S kind of borrowing credibility from that a little bit. And then some of the women, you ready for this? This killed me. Some of the Women also raised questions about his trustworthiness. Mr. Plattner's insistence that he did not know that his tattoo was a Nazi symbol until it became a campaign issue last fall was simply not true, Ms. Fifield said. After all, she said, he had taught her the word for it years earlier, referring to it as my Totenkopf.

0:32:03 Lydia: Lend credibility to the yeah. Yeah. Hmm.

0:32:32 Thomas: That's it. So we get some of The Women raised questions About his trust worthiness. And then we get Republican lady says, oh, yeah, he knew what it was. I don't believe that, actually. I'm not saying she's lying about everything. I'm not. I don'T believe this part because someone pointed out is really funny. She's kind of gone on a rampage on Twitter after this and get this. She accuses the New York Times of a conspiracy to support Plattner like, oh they did this to help him. Are you fucking kidding me? That was honestly one of the biggest when I saw her going after that and saying like the New York Times did this thing. Let me find the quote here. I bucked all advice from my friends and resisted my conservative bias and decided to fully trust the Times journalists. As they left my home, they asked me that I not talk to any other outlets. And I insisted then and repeatedly over the following weeks that I would keep my word and only share the story with them. But then the weeks dragged on. They kept coming back to us saying the editors needed more. I need to go on the record. Okay. We need to have more screenshots. Okay, I met every benchmark they set eager to to provide more sources or evidence as needed. After the story went up, I began to ask them, wait, where are the stories from the other women? Where are their accusations of sexual assault? Why am I the focus? Why are there 11 paragraphs dedicated to detailing my work history more than has been published about Graham? That's not fucking true.

0:33:49 Thomas: Why does it say nobody could corroborate when I offered them sources that could corroboro? Why did they include an out of context quote from a friend joking, do not call Graham after I called off my wedding. And that's funny because because that's actually, we'll get to that later, but that weakens that comment, which is weird. I don't know why she's calling them out for putting something in that actually made more of a case against Graham than the way she's saying it, which ist interesting.

0:34:14 Thomas: Like something that seemed like a bad thing was actually just a joke. She says at the end, it dawned on me that this really was a setup all along. The journalists I trusted who convinced me to share a story I never wanted to tell, methodically delayed and twisted this into a gift to the Platner campaign, violating the trust of his victims, shattering the trust I placed in them with the most vulnerable story of my life. And at the end of my call with them, I reluctantly accepted their insistence that this was still a powerful story and that I had done a brave thing. And I thank them for all the hard work they put into it, still fawning after all these years. I don't know. I mean, for her to say that this was a Times conspiracy to help Grant Platner, essentially, it was a setup all along.

0:34:56 Thomas: I I mean, that's just laughable. And for her to say, wait, why didn't they include all these people I said could corroborate? Well, the answer is that they didn't corroborate, like that's pretty much everyone was like if you gave them sources that could corrobarate, then that means they didn't, otherwise they would have said that like that'S kind of journalism works, you know, they're not going to leave out corroboration. So that probably means the people she thought would corroborate the story maybe didn't, or maybe couldn'T or Maybe she thought they knew more than they did or maybe they could corroberate like one part of it, but not the parts that were like more important, you know, like that's more what's going on here. And someone pointed out to her in the replies, they said, wait a minute, cause she goes off on Platner. She's really gone after him, which fair enough. But she was talking about the Nazi tattoo and someone's like, Hey, wait A minute. Just asking. That means you knew we had a Nazi tattoo. And you just dated him.

0:35:46 Thomas: She was like, Oh, well, let me explain back then. And you're like, it's a good point. You know, if it's this thing that he's like, here's my Nazi tattoo. And she taught her the word for it and all that.

0:35:57 Lydia: She could have just been like you guys I'm a Republican. Yeah I don't care. Like that would have worked I guess. Yes.

0:36:03 Thomas: But there's something to that. That's like, yeah, I mean, I don't quite believe that, you know, I will say, I think there in full fairness, she did in a text to somebody else long after this relationship, but importantly, a little bit before the story broke about the tattoo, she did refer to it as the Totenkopf. Now that doesn't prove that Graham knew it. You can take it for what it's worth. Graham's answer was that he didn't know what it was, but I guess she recognized it or knew it later or somehow. So that's his story. You know, you can believe that if you want. I still lay somewhere in the, he probably knew at some point and has the white male privilege to not really worry about getting it removed.

0:36:46 Thomas: But it's also somewhat convincing when he says like, if I thought I had a Nazi tattoo, I wouldn't have gotten shirtless at all these things that, But, you know, my what was it, his brother's wedding who married a Jewish woman and like shirtless dancing at the thing like that's kind of convincing to me. Like and again, for those who didn't listen to the bonus, I think the overwhelming thing for me is that we got access to over a decade of Reddit comments and nowhere in there is any Nazi anything. So at best for me, I could imagine that maybe he realized it at some point, but just didn't, you know, didn't care enough to get it removed, which isn't great. But I know the wedding thing is that's decent. He might have just been oblivious. I don't know. And it's funny because people have such different experiences on Facebook. Some people are like, oh, my God, Thomas, how could you not know what that was? I cannot tell you how much I would not have known what that wasn't like. I really I think there are people who just have that brain. And then actually they said something interesting, which was, well, I listen to metal or I'm in the metal scene and they're used to like these white supremacists with these fucking, you know, symbols. Yeah, a little bit. And I'm not in any of that. So that does make sense. And if you recognize it from that, and I think it also makes sense why people have such different reactions to that. Some people are like, there's no fucking way. And then other people are like, well, I don't know. He's a drunk Marine.

0:37:09 Lydia: Put it off. Yeah. Oh, right. Or like punk scene and stuff. Yeah, yeah. Right?

0:38:08 Thomas: And I truly could not know less about that kind of thing. It's just not ever been something that I care about. The most annoying thing was that everybody kept saying like, oh, he's a self-admitted history buff. It's like, all right. Like at 4,000 comments with that same thing, noted history, but self-admitted history. But he could be in a Roman history that has nothing to do with anything. Like you could be a history. History is pretty long. There's a lot of it. They've made a lot of that. So the only thing, the only person who claimed that he knew what it was, is this Republican. So take that for what it's worth.

0:38:43 Thomas: I don't know. So then they sprinkle in him saying, yeah, I self-medicated with alcohol back then. You know, they kind of sprinkle in like, yes, he might have behaved badly in certain ways, but he denies knowing what the tattoo was. Then, as I say, we get this included interviews with two dozen people. Then they get the third woman, who's also a Democrat. So I want to, in full fairness, I'm trying to just grab, if you actually distill out the claims that are in this article? It's not much. It's some bad stuff, but especially if you were to maybe not be so believing of the Republican, there's one thing that's pretty bad. Third woman, a Democrat from Maine who spoke on a condition of anonymity, had a long distance relationship with Mr. Plattner on off for years as recently as 2016. So 10 years ago. The three, so these are the three exes now that are the ones that are negative about him, described him in similar terms. Spending time with him could be exhilarating, they said, but they also recounted patterns of heavy drinking, and womanizing. Asked to sum up how he treated her, the third woman said she felt like, quote, collateral damage to the world that is his.

0:39:43 Thomas: Okay, so not a good quote, but I think that's it. I think That's All She Says. Now we go to Fifield. Again, the Republican. 2013. Well, you know, okay. I don't, just like, whatever. I think as a person, I want to make that distinction too. As a person I would probably judge like, ah, that guy seems like a bit of a sexist. Like, This is enough evidence for me to be like, I probably wouldn't really unless I got a good sense from him that he was not drinking and he had changed pretty heavily on on a lot of things. You know, like he'd grown in his views about women.

0:40:20 Thomas: I would be pretty turned off by a lot OF this. I don't know if you want to speak to that yet or if you wanna hear more or maybe let me do more of the accusations. I really wanna hear your opinion. So I just wanna make that distinction that we're talking about voting for a senator against Susan Collins. Ones. Don't take this as like, if this were my friend, I'd be super cool. I wouldn't.

0:40:39 Thomas: If this is my friend and I heard people talk about it, not great, you know, not good behavior. You either want to like confront him or maybe just not really be friends with him anymore. So then she has a quote from a text, Lindsay, I love you in a way I can't even describe. You are literally everything to me. Okay. 2016. All right. I'm scanning through to find the next like thing. Yeah.

0:40:59 Lydia: I was like, that sounds nice. Nice.

0:41:01 Thomas: Okay, so So Republican lady says, now her accusations, again, I'm not downplaying what they are. They are bad. She said he regularly grabbed her by the shoulders, sometimes hard enough to leave marks. And on one occasion, yanked her out of a cab by her wrist after an argument when she wanted to stay in the car. And actually, I think this one might have been somewhat corroborated by a friend. I don't know if it says it in this one. It said, I read that on the free press, I am realizing. So, you know, but whatever. That might have happened if you're tallying up like what seems corroborated grabbed her out of the cab by her wrist in 2014 or whatever which yeah not good bad behavior for sure during one argument and this is the worst accusation during one argument she recalled he twisted her arm behind her back shoved her into a bedroom and held the door closed from the other side so she couldn't get out telling her to remain there until she was calm eventually miss five field said she fell asleep and left the next morning it hurt she said but she added it didn't cause an injury it didn't break my arm mr platner strongly disputes any claims so he denies it uh she also says he had weaponry yeah okay he was in the army I don't care about that there is a really weird quote that you might have come across where she says quote he said this a lot if anyone ever broke in here I would rape them she recalled saying that he added it would not be in a sexual way not in a gay way he was like I would rate them to show that I'm

0:42:25 Lydia: What?

0:42:25 Thomas: Dominant she said yeah that's an extremely extremely weird quote. It then says, asked about those remarks, a Plattner campaign official did not dispute them. That sounds so weird to me.

0:42:38 Lydia: I don't know what to make of that.

0:42:38 Thomas: A Plattler campaign official did not dispute them that that almost sounds like a where they caught off guard and be like, I don't know what that is. But you know, let me go to my talking points kind of thing.

0:42:48 Lydia: Yeah, it could be.

0:42:48 Thomas: That's a weird quote, but I also would say a Marine dude in war has gone to war and seen people blown up. That's that kind of dude I guess in a way I don't know if this was some weird dark humor thing or how much he believed it it's all that context we don't get or maybe it's really fucking bad I don know it could be like the worst version of it but we don'T get that we just get her saying that and I I just don't like what I don'T know what to make of that you know like it's fucking weird it's a weird thing to say like if you really again if I actually knew a friend of mine said that in was serious, I'd be like, what the, what's wrong with you? Like that's fucking weird, man. If they said it and it was like some weird, like seemed like a dark joke thing, that'd be like, that's still be like what's with you. It'd be a slightly different. What's wrong with you, but that's weird. I don't know. That's a weird one. Then we get to someone claims, Oh, Nope. This is still five field. Five field also claims that she had overlapping relationships with other women. And that's, I don'T even think he's denied that. I think think he was dating around and you know and she says he referred to women as hatchet wounds all

0:43:51 Lydia: Mm -hm. That's gross.

0:44:01 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:44:01 Thomas: Right let's say what they could actually corroborate let's see the times reviewed text between miss fivefield and mr plattner along with google chat exchanges texts and facebook messages between miss fivefields and her friends during and after the relationship the times also reviewed some of miss fivefield's diary entries from after the friendship had ended and spoke with two of her friends who confirmed that the pair had an emotionally volatile relationship but could not corroborate the physical altercations or the most controversial comments she described. So they couldn't corroborate it.

0:44:30 Thomas: Ms. Fifield said she did not expect her friends to offer that corroboration because she did tell anyone at the time saying she had been embarrassed, which, hey, that happens. She also referred to him in a diary entry in June 2016 as the most toxic, literally abusive man on the earth who destroyed my life. So that's in a diary entry. Then it talks about how she's He's affiliated with this conservative group that I've mentioned. We get one paragraph here. Mr. Plattner's campaign arranged interviews for The Times with three other women who dated him over a period of seven years and all support his candidacy. They described a very different kind of relationship. Caroline Lemp, who dated Mr. Plattler for several months in 2013, also very old, described him as a gentle giant. She said he never made her feel unsafe or showed any signs that he was struggling with the physical or mental effects of his military service. He was a great boyfriend, said Ms. Lemp, 36, who now lives in St. Louis. He was super kind, very nice, fun. That's somebody who lives in Saint Louis. They're not like a, you know, a Maine Democrat working on his campaign. The others who spoke on condition of anonymity said Mr. Plattner was never physically threatening. One, a nurse from Belfast, Maine, who dated him for a couple of months after he returned home to Maine, described him as responsible, intelligent, and supportive. Another who dated Him in Washington between 2011 and 2013 said she witnessed some potentially potentially problematic behavior, referring to his heavy drinking. But she felt really safe with him.

0:45:51 Thomas: Then we get a heading, my Totenkopf. They already made that claim.

0:45:57 Lydia: Revisit it, yeah.

0:45:57 Thomas: So they're going to talk more about that. It's not him saying, it's just her again saying that he said that. And she says, I would never have known what that was. He would joke about it being a Nazi tattoo. All right. She claims that the military unit literally deliberately selected it because it was relevant to their military unit because they were like a death unit or killers is what she she claims.

0:46:17 Thomas: Plattner obviously strongly disputes that. But I will say that, and I brought this up, in a private chat group last summer, months before Plattler acknowledged the tattoo himself, Ms. Fifield told friends that her ex -boyfriend turned Senate candidate has a Nazi tattoo on his chest. It's a totem cop, she told them on August 20th, according to a screenshot she shared with the Times, an actual one. I will personally go campaign for Collins, she wrote. Two of her friends reacted with a crying, laughing emoji. The comment was a joke, Ms. Fifefield told the time. Yeah. Okay. It was a joke that you would personally go, but it's not, it doesn't mean. Yeah. Anyway. So the other thing they have in here is kind of mixed in with maybe the texting thing where he was on the private Facebook group. Are we dating the same guy? Like somebody did that, shared an image of him. Someone said, ghosted me in the past, then popped up on a different dating app. I'm concerned. He may have a significant other out there. So this is the thing, probably the texting thing. The comments drew replies from at least six women, several of whom noted that he was married. That doesn't mean they all dated him or anything. That could mean they have identified him. Yeah.

0:47:19 Lydia: That they're just aware of the relationship, yeah?

0:47:21 Thomas: I think the second accuser I mentioned was a Democrat who was one of the women who commented on the chain confirmed that the post was real, as did a second woman who commented. So it was a real post. So here's that second accusor, the Democrat. She says she was not shocked when she saw the incendiary comments he had made about women that that has surfaced during the campaign. I was like, that makes sense. She said, this person does not respect women.

0:47:45 Thomas: Miss, I don't know how to say her name, Rassico or Rassicot, something. Also said that in 2021, he arrived at her house drunk after she asked him not to come over. Not good behavior. She declined to elaborate, but said she cut off contact soon after that episode and found his behavior reckless and unsettling. And that's it. All of that is from Fifield. All of it. Except the one other thing who said, oh, those Reddit messages, that make sense because he hates women or whatever. He doesn't respect women. He showed up drunk in 2021. So not, you know, fair enough. Like that is later than you would have hoped after she asked him not to come over. How do you feel about that?

0:48:26 Lydia: Yeah... Yeah. So I've been on the receiving end of that and it's not great, but man, it's so hard because I want to answer this how I honestly feel, but I also don't want people to think that like I'm okay with men treating women in a particular way. Like, I'm not. But I think there's a couple of things here. When we're talking about language use and behavior and things of that nature from a long time ago, I don't think people are irredeemable. I think people ARE capable of change. I THINK people are capable of growth. And it's very likely, or at least there is certainly potential, that he has grown in those ways. Now, he hasn't done the thing where you circle back and repair the things that he's like done as missteps with people, not that they would necessarily be open to that. So it sounds like that's kind of a missing piece. But he's also older and stuff. I don't know. Like that's a hard thing to square exactly. Exactly. I also think that in particular with his relationship with Lindsay, it doesn't strike me as that weird that she would describe their relationship as toxic and terrible in all of these ways. And for other people, even from back around the same time frame to say like, well, you know, things were fine, like he was actually a gentle giant, you knows, yada, yadda, yedda. I think that how you show up in a relationship can be so dependent on the person that you're in the relationship with. And they probably were not good together and

0:48:41 Thomas: Please do. Yeah, yeah,

0:50:00 Lydia: They probably brought out the worst in each other, whereas like that would not be necessarily replicated in his other relationships. Now, that's not to excuse how he acted in that relationship, according to Lindsay, but I understand why there could be a discrepancy there. The person who in my life who showed up at a place I was house sitting and he was very, very drunk. Well, he did that actually. He did this a couple of times, but not great no matter what. But I also wouldn't say like he's a monster. I wouldn't saying like he is horrible in all of these ways just because of like that particular thing. I don't know. It's complicated. And at the end of the day, I think you can hold people to a higher standard even after they're in office and that at the end of day, the thing that's more damaging is having somebody in the position that will actively work to hurt women in marginalized communities at a policy level.

0:51:02 Lydia: And it sucks, but that's just the world we live in. I don' t know. And those are kind of my feelings, like a little all over the place but as a woman like hearing hearing that story

0:51:10 Thomas: I think what's tough is this. If you take out the Republican, there's fucking, this is not an article. I'm not saying that means he's great. I'm just saying that he's not. But you're not writing an article about this. This is not a New York Times article. If the entire article, yeah, was, well, he showed up drunk when I told him not to. Yeah, that's not good. That can be really scary.

0:51:24 Lydia: Right it's a daily mail

0:51:32 Thomas: A hundred percent. Like, to your point, that is not good behavior. If the sum total of, well we have gone through his whole life and found all his exes. Yeah, it is a lot of it. I mean, I have considered that kind of a lot.

0:51:32 Lydia: Article especially from someone who is a purported womanizer he probably has a lot of exes there might be even more than that though is what is my point like or people that have gone on casual dates with him

0:51:52 Thomas: Well, and they've tried, they clearly tried for months to report out the story, like for months they were doing this. Contra what Fifield says, I really think the New York Times doesn't like this guy. Like they're trying to take him down. I don't know, justified or not, I guess it's up to a matter of opinion, but they tried to report that out.

0:52:14 Thomas: This is like nothing, you know, like I'm actually surprised at how little there is here. Now, if you're somebody who takes Ms. Fifield's word for everything, then that's tricky. You know, like, like is that an article? Like if we're really grading on the curve of senators and their past and someone who admittedly said he had a drinking problem and has been open with being problematic in the past, is that a news article? Article. I just don't, I don't know that this is a news article. You know, it just doesn't seem right to me.

0:52:47 Lydia: I think it's also like this sense of humans are complicated complicated and relationships are complicated and people make mistakes and act in ways that are not okay. Like this happens with pretty much everybody in the entire world. At some point in your life, you're going to do something that's not good, right? And I think it's really like this Disney -fied perception that we can only ever vote for somebody who is a perfect person from the the moment they entered the world to now during their campaign that just that doesn't exist that really doesn't I mean Zoran I think is the closest thing that I can think of but I'll revise that and say it is unlikely to exist and we really have to be able to grapple with that people are complicated I don't know

0:53:39 Thomas: Yeah, I, and a lot of this is, I do not know what to make of it. I do not know that is a new story. I, just, it, this is right on the line. Like, I get, and again, if true, there is some, there some bad behavior in there for sure.

0:53:51 Lydia: And he very well might agree that it was bad behavior and he has made changes and yeah but I mean and again that's just to my point that like if he's on the same page yeah, that was all really shitty, then what was missing was him reaching out and apologizing to the women impacted. And I don't know that they would have even welcomed that.

0:53:54 Thomas: Oh, yeah, yeah. He denies all the physical stuff, but yeah.

0:54:09 Thomas: Yeah let me say this. To your point before about like people in relationships, please feel free to say if this is not a good point or not something worth exploring. I cannot help but think when she describes her version of the story is that during an argument, he twisted her arm behind her, shoved her into a bedroom and held the door closed, telling her to remain there until she was calm.

0:54:37 Thomas: I just want to say there is a version of that story where she is trying to hit him or something.

0:54:36 Lydia: So yeah, it's possible. And we don't knows because he hasn't come out and said, here's my side of that story.

0:54:49 Thomas: Well, yes, yes. But just thinking about how these things go. Like the abuser type that she's trying to make it out. Like just the arm behind her back thing sticks out to me. That's like, that's, it's not like a natural thing you would do apropos of nothing. You know, it'd be like, like if it was just like, oh, we're arguing, it'd just like oh, he just put me in a, you know what I mean? Like if it were that version of the story where they're just arguing verbally, wouldn't he just like put her in the room? It's just, it' s one of those things where it's like I can't help but wonder if she got physical too. Like I just, and it would fit with the gentle giant thing and the fact that nobody else has any complaints of this. The other worst complaint is showing up when drunk, but no allegation of anything happening then.

0:55:29 Lydia: I think it's also worth noting that the way that her friends have described the relationship was that it was a toxic relationship. They didn't say Lindsay was abused by Graham Plattner.

0:55:38 Thomas: That's a good point. Boy, I didn't, yeah, I Didn't catch that.

0:55:41 Lydia: It was was a toxic relationship which usually means that both people are contributing to the toxicity

0:55:46 Thomas: Yeah. And don't get me wrong. This, this is not, if this were a Johnny Depp, what's her name thing, a totally different story. Like if there are any stories or charges of abuse or police calls or anything like that, I'd be the first person to be like, Oh, that's not equal. That means means that's an abuser hurting somebody. And then when the victim retaliates, they get in more trouble. Like that's awful. I'm not, no way. If it even had a hint of that, I would say absolutely no way, but given the weight of the evidence, I just don't know how much, I don't know. I don'T know how Much stock to put in, in what she's saying.

0:55:51 Lydia: Amber heard yeah

0:56:21 Thomas: I really don't. And if you take her out, there's nothing there's, this is not an article. So I just have really struggled with this. I Really, more than anything, I Just wanted to talk it out, especially with you. Like Like, I don't you know, I'm happy. I'm sure a lot of people can give me a piece of their mind on this. Like, and I get it. That's fine. Like, I think people are entitled to give me a pieceof their mindon this. I believe that he probably has a problem with women. I struggle with this Republican accuser. I struggle with her, especially literally actively starting a group to support Kavanaugh.

0:56:29 Lydia: Yeah brett

0:56:53 Thomas: I just, I struggle, you know? Like ,I struggle. I take everybody else's word, you now, but but it just doesn't add up to when someone has campaigned openly on having these problems. Again, what is news? When someone has said, yes, I have this history. And if you, again, taking the Republican lady out of it, the news story is he showed up once, once drunk when I asked him not to.

0:56:53 Lydia: Kavanaugh newsflash he has this history

0:57:19 Thomas: Yeah. It's like, it's bad. It'S not, again it's, we get put in this uncomfortable position where it's like yeah, that's not good behavior out of a person, but like you don't write a new york times article and like it just especially like if it was mom donnie actually you would like if somebody who is mr rogers yeah if it's right and importantly that he's putting out

0:57:20 Lydia: We know right yeah so counter so counter to the public persona that they've been putting out yeah yeah

0:57:42 Thomas: You know like if went contrary to a reputation that someone is you know really running on and like I would consider myself having been deceived if mom donny were accused of something like that in a serious way. But Graham Plattner, like what? He's like been very open about it. So anyway. All right. Well, I just, I want to talk that out. Hopefully that was something, but I find it just fucking, the whole thing is weird. That first article should not have existed. That shouldn't even happen in my opinion. I don't know. That just feels so shitty to me. Like it just, the only source being the campaign manager, because the wife told her like, Hey, maybe this this will be a concern. Like it just, that's fucked up. I don't know. It doesn't sit well with me.

0:58:25 Lydia: Yeah well I'm sure this stuff is going to continue to make the news as we inch closer to the general and Susan Collins has all of this at her disposal

0:58:29 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, and that's the thing. Hey, the minute we've got another accusation, like that could change everything. I'm skeptical because of, it's been now almost a year. I don't even know. Yeah? It's been a long time of them really throwing everything they have at them. So I'm sceptical that we're going to get much more, but you never know. I mean, people don't read the news. I guess there could be, there could be somebody out there that's like, oh, holy shit. And then yeah, this happened to me. And, you know, if that happens, like, yeah, I will I will have to apologize for casting any doubt. And I would. But all that is, again, within the context of saying he had a bad history. I'm not saying he's Mr. Rogers. I'm Not saying he is a saint. I think he probably is kind of a douche. But is he going to give us health care?

0:58:39 Lydia: So yeah yeah yeah

0:59:16 Thomas: Is he going vote against Trump? Is he gonna do things that are actually good for a lot of people and way better for women than fucking Susan Collins? I don't know. Just leave it there, I guess. Well, thanks for listening to my ramblings. Like I said, this was more a solo SIO, so sorry that I talked at you the whole time or read the article at you the whole thing.

0:59:32 Thomas: But it just didn't feel right to do a solo SIO when we had done these bonuses already on this show.

0:59:32 Lydia: I think that there's elements of this that are very dub -t -dub though because it's all talking about like the information infrastructure and like why are things presented to us in the way that they're presented to us like I I do think that there's at least hints of that and I don't think we have answers but maybe more will come out there

0:59:43 Thomas: So, yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks so much for listening, everybody, if you made it this far. And thanks, Lydia, for Lydia -ing. And we'll see you next time.

1:00:00 Lydia: I'll always do that count them