WTW128: Crowdfunding Hate, with Naomi Bethune

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:41 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Where There's Woke. I'm Thomas. That over there is Lydia. How you doing?

0:00:44 Lydia: Hello. I'm doing pretty well. Excited for this one. How are you?

0:00:48 Thomas: Good. I always excited to see the Wokeys. Wokey's.

0:00:51 Lydia: I know. Of our favorite people.

0:00:54 Thomas: Speaking of favorite people, we've got a really cool interview today.

0:00:58 Lydia: Oh, yeah, we sure do. Are going to be talking to Naomi Bethune. She is a writer with the American Prospect, and she wrote this great piece that actually you came across and we got to talk to her. I reached out and she was so gracious and came on, called The Far Right Cash Machine.

0:01:12 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. And it's not exactly what you think. You might think that's like buying elections or something, but it's actually kind of our podcast, the article, in a way, because it's about how there is no cancel culture, that's all pretend, and what there really is is a funnel of money, a spigot of money that can get turned on for anyone who does something horrible, you know, usually to like people of color or whatever, um, who takes part in the culture wars on the side of the right wing, uh, just a funnel. And some of the stories that she goes through in the article are just so horrifying. We'll let her tell them. But this is, man, this not a fun topic.

0:01:24 Lydia: Yeah. Yep.

0:01:56 Lydia: Important work,

0:01:57 Thomas: Yeah. And a really Cool interview. Interview, so let's talk to Naomi about this, you, this, uh, normal person to culture warrior, uh, horrible person.

0:01:57 Lydia: Right? So, yeah.

0:02:09 Lydia: MAGA darlings sometimes. Yeah.

0:02:11 Thomas: I, you know, it's mag-, it's also like deeply white supremacist. But uh, Yeah, well, if you'd like to support the show, go to patreon.com/wherethereswoke, because we don't have a big spigot of white supremacists' money coming our way. I don't

0:02:15 Lydia: Oh, yeah, totally.

0:02:25 Lydia: We don't have a big spigot of any kind of supremacist money coming our way.

0:02:28 Thomas: Even have a trickle of white supremacist money coming our way. Oh, do want to shout out to Wokies, I just put out some SIOs about the really stupid conspiracy theories about Trump assassinations, and I thought it's, it's a debunk, it's debunks that I didn't know I needed to do, and I know this show's crowd probably likes a good debunker too. So, So, nope.

0:02:47 Lydia: Yeah. You, like, couldn't go on with life until you got this out of your system. So, yeah, you really did.

0:02:51 Thomas: Nope. I hit pause on life and had to talk about this. I can't believe it. So, if you're someone who also can't belief that we're, you up conspiracy theories about these Trump assassination attempts, or if you are somebody who believes those conspiracy theories, maybe give that a listen over on Serious Inquiries Only. All right. Let's take our break and then we'll get to the interview. Thanks so much for joining us today.

0:03:17 Naomi: Thank you for having me.

0:03:19 Thomas: Absolutely. Really, enjoyed the article, The Far Right Cash Machine, which is how we got kind of turned on to this. But I want to ask you, how topic? Like, what's your story of how you caught on to the story of the far right cash machine? Yeah. What's doing on here?

0:03:28 Lydia: The origin story.

0:03:31 Naomi: Is a great question. Way I kind of was introduced to it is I saw that, you really horrible video that went viral of Shiloh Hendricks racially harassing a young black boy. Boy. And, I respond in a very visceral way. It was, you really disturbing, you a Black person and, you know, anyone feel like was a horrible thing. I And just was wondering, like, how do you recover from that in the world that we live in? It Because, made me think, I'm like, we live in this kind of world that's becoming increasingly defined by, like, right-wing authoritarian um -black racism. Everything's just like on steroids right now. Um, I look back to like, say like 2020, I was like, that should get you canceled like

0:03:47 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:03:50 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah.

0:04:16 Thomas: You want to quickly for the listeners, just give the, a little bit more of the full story so they know what you're talking about.

0:04:21 Naomi: Yeah, it was a year ago. Um, this was in Rochester, Minnesota. Um Video came out of this white woman named Shiloh Hendricks, in which she was accused by a Black man of calling a young Black boy the N -word. She said it was because he had been, quote unquote, digging through her diaper bag. She called the little boy, we don't know how many times, but then she called the Black man behind the camera at least three times and then doubled down by saying the little guy was going to act like that, that's what she's going to call him.

0:04:49 Lydia: Jeez.

0:04:49 Thomas: Wow.

0:04:56 Lydia: Is insane.

0:04:57 Naomi: It was, it was horrible. Um, happens to a person like that in the world we live in? So I did a little research into it just cause it was really frustrating and terrible to see, like thinking about how traumatizing that is for like everyone involved, um, were, you hurt by her words. Saw that she had a give, send, go and And GiveSendGo is like this, I estranged cousin of like GoFundMe.

0:04:59 Thomas: Yeah.

0:05:22 Thomas: It's the racist uncle. They have to see at the holidays.

0:05:24 Lydia: There you go.

0:05:24 Thomas: Yeah, go

0:05:25 Naomi: It is. Yeah, it's this.

0:05:26 Lydia: Uncle Frank.

0:05:28 Thomas: Fund me. He's like, Oh God damn it. Give, send, go is going to be at the fucking Thanksgiving. I don't know what I'll even talk about.

0:05:35 Lydia: Of

0:05:30 Naomi: It is. Yeah. Yeah. -hmm. I would say that. For like people who don't know, it's this crowdfunding site. It' s labeled as like a Christian crowdfunding site. And it has like very little restrictions on like what you can fundraise around. On GoFundMe, for example, like you cannot raise money like to cover anything related to a violent crime, like any racist incidents, etc. But Give, Send, Go has like three guidelines. And one of them is you can't raise money to an abortion. And the other one is you can't raise money to support like transition and gender affirming care.

0:06:07 Lydia: Course.

0:06:13 Naomi: People like Tyler Hendricks and Jonathan Ross and Kyle Rittenhouse can go on there and money for whatever they say they need it for. Um, she set up a a fundraising page and I talked about this a bit in my story, like how it kind of all came together. Um, and she pretty much said, "I need you to help me protect my family. You being threatened, my life is upside down because of you. What happened?" Um, and people really responded to that. She page is still up now a year later and set her fundraising goal for a million dollars

0:06:11 Thomas: Incredible. Absolutely incredible. Incredible. A Million

0:06:43 Naomi: Um She's pretty close to it.

0:06:44 Thomas: Dollars. Jesus. Yeah.

0:06:47 Lydia: So crazy to me. Like, I need to protect my family from what happened. Oh, you mean from the actions that you took and The words that you made and that, environment of your own making. Speaking and gumption to then turn around and fundraise off of it is just another level of despicable. Yeah.

0:06:53 Thomas: Yeah.

0:07:06 Thomas: Yeah. I

0:07:07 Naomi: One thing I get into is that she had incredible support from white supremacists in doing this. Um, are the people who, like, really pushed the fundraiser you out into the world, who garnered support for it, who gave substantial amounts of money. Obviously, like, I can't say who exactly was donating, because there's really no way to know. Um,

0:07:29 Lydia: You can type whatever name. Yeah.

0:07:30 Naomi: It could have been anyone from, like, someone who's, like, super into free speech to you neo-Nazi. Um, herself, I I cannot not exactly define, like, her political leanings or, like, you know off of, you know, what I saw, which is her a coordinated effort to reach out to on X or Twitter that perpetuate eugenicist, white supremacist, xenophobic views and her doing, like, going out of her way to do that, having them where they asked her to prove an account, asked her to prove that it was really her. Account's called Anglo Saxon Girl. Um, they said if if, you want me to help you raise money, you got, you have to show to me that you're actually Shiloh Hendricks. And, she said the way to do that is send me a picture of you, your username, and please write the N word underneath it.

0:07:41 Thomas: Could take a guess?

0:07:52 Thomas: Yeah. Oh,

0:08:19 Naomi: And sent the picture and that's picture stolen X.

0:08:20 Thomas: My god, are you kidding me? Wow. Jesus.

0:08:25 Naomi: So how it started for her. She she looks looking for support and like to be in community with during this time. And a lot of people wanted to participate in that and support her.

0:08:36 Thomas: Well, to your point, it's like, who knows to do that? That's not like a household thing. I don't, I hope, like, you have to already kind of be in with that to know that that even exists, I would think. I

0:08:48 Naomi: Agree. I is kind of interesting how like for a very long time, at least I saw crowdfunding attempts or like platforms like GoFundMe as this kind of way where the left would support each other, where people who were disenfranchised were struggling with their health care or rent.

0:09:05 Thomas: Was gonna say, I see it as just the American health care system, but yeah, sure. Yeah.

0:09:08 Naomi: Exactly. Yeah. Any of those causes you feel so moved to help them because, you know, we live in a world where most can't afford health care or some don't have insurance. And it's like, I need to give to that because it's wrong that that anyone would have to live that way. But right has started to notice that they can use that to raise money for themselves and to raise money to support people that they victimized. So Hendrix was victimized in this. She made herself the victim just victimized herself in a way that totally dismisses people who actually could be considered victims. People who who genuinely are going through, like, horrible period in their lives or really need help, like, with their medical bills, for example. Um, the people who surrounded her aligned, like, her struggle with that, and really what I think got people interested in supporting her because she kind of martyred herself and made herself out to be the person who's really struggling. Um, people wanted to help her, you

0:09:09 Lydia: Oh

0:10:09 Thomas: We were a little confused. Um, I think in the article it talks about, like, oh, what the left has done, you know, like, there there's some somebody who quoted, I think that was like, well, if the left is gonna do this, they're the ones making my. I was wondering What did the left do? Like, did they do, is, I mean, maybe I'm missing the facts, but But was was there something that happened to her that as a result of this, you know, was she attacked or something? Or what? What do they claim?

0:10:17 Naomi: Yeah. Yeah.

0:10:34 Naomi: I think she was doxxed. Um, that happens, I guess, in, like, these super viral moments. Yes.

0:10:40 Thomas: You mean before she put the N -word under her photo and like before that?

0:10:44 Naomi: This was This was during a very difficult time for her, obviously. Um, was docked. Um, said that faced, like, in person. Then that's what kind of triggered the whole, I need to support my family, I need protect my family thing. She saw some repercussions for what she did. And then, you was kind of used as like a jumping off point to create her gives and go and to, find you people, you know, who are going to support her.

0:10:44 Thomas: OK.

0:11:09 Thomas: We know much about that, or did she lose a job or anything, or is it just like I was attacked online or something? Thing

0:11:15 Naomi: We only know what she says. Um What she said is that her information was leaked or doxxed, and her family was experiencing harassment. She was experiencing embarrassment. She said something about, like, where she goes to the gym, like, information was linked. Um, I guess she felt unsafe. Um, I said it's really up to, like, what she's put out there because There's really no other way, I guess, to know.

0:11:17 Thomas: Yeah. Okay. Sure. Yeah. Think what really scares me about this and what is just, I hate to be a bummer, but back in my day, you know, I've been covering stuff like this for at least, I don't know, 12 years, and it used to be that this kind of person was somebody who, um, plausibly subject to a misunderstanding. Like, it used to be, oh, well, they were just saying, doing whatever. And the, you know, this person of color probably flipped out, misunderstood it, you know, took it the wrong way. Like, it used to be I didn't really buy it.

Sometimes there was genuine misunderstanding. And there's people who, you know, people obviously online fly off the handle. And, you know, there's always going to be cases of people being too horrific to people who don't deserve it online. But for the most part, it was like, you you know, it'd be something that was plausibly a misunderstanding is, you know it, it made it made for a really good white victim where it's like, oh, this you know this nice white person was just doing whatever you remember that San Francisco one, hon, where the guy

0:12:08 Naomi: Yeah.

0:12:37 Lydia: Yeah.

0:12:37 Thomas: There was, uh, yeah he wrote black

0:12:37 Lydia: Yeah. Um, They said like, like, why are you here? Yeah.

0:12:41 Thomas: Lives matter maybe. And it was on his own property.

0:12:43 Lydia: And like this Exactly, and they were like, you know, prove that you live here, like you're not from here. I'm gonna talk to the person who Who owns this house?

0:12:46 Thomas: Yeah. And, and this white couple harasses him and is like, Oh we know who owns this house. And turned out it was him. And they were just lying, that kind of thing. But where they could still at least plausibly say, like, look, we were just trying to protect our community, blah, blah. But this one, it scares me so much because this is just, oh, no, I was being a racist and doing horrible racism.

0:13:06 Lydia: I did that.

0:13:06 Thomas: Support my racism. Like, that's what it does. That's come across to you the same way as kind of a maybe a bit of a change, you know, that doesn't pretend well. Well, no.

0:13:06 Lydia: I said that. Yes. Yeah, yeah.

0:13:17 Naomi: I just, one of many examples unfortunately that have, like, kind of sprung up in the past couple years where it's just really explicit, you, there's no room for misunderstanding because we see it, we've seen it, and then a lot of times people, like, double down, um, they show that doubling down through, like, crowdfunding, um, because they go out there and they say, "I did this, but I don't deserve what happened to me, give me money." Um, mean, I can think of several other examples where maybe the campaigns didn't do as well as Hendrix's, but there was a woman who worked at a Cinnabon and there's a video of her, like, yelling at two Somali customers saying some horrible things to them. She raised some money. Don't really know how much she made.

The page got taken down like as I was doing my research. And then I think recently in Texas, a woman was caught like at some black kids who were playing in her yard or playing nearby. And I think she called them the N -word. And she raised a bit of money, too. Been happening a lot.

Um, goals that are set, like may vary the ways that like people circulate them may vary, but don't think anyone goes out of their way to do this, to get caught doing it so they can make money,

0:13:27 Thomas: Yeah. Sure.

0:13:35 Lydia: Yeah.

0:14:28 Naomi: But it's kind of like a perk, you think that would just want to, say, ruin their lives, but completely, like, alter how they live and really change things, and they'd see repercussions for it, but instead they're they're really being rewarded.

0:14:40 Lydia: I was gonna ask along those lines too because we've talked a lot about, in the last few years, you, productive role that shame can actually play, potentially, you know, like calling out bad behavior, calling out people when are being, are you, beyond unkind, they're being, you, you know, disgusting and racist and everything. And that shame can be an effective tool in that way. But it feels like, I don't know if it can be, if the next step is that whatever proportion of folks, maybe not everybody that experiences it, but some amount of them will just sit in it and say yes and claim it as them and make money off of it. And what are we left? Like, what kind of tools do you think we can come up with to kind of push back on this stuff if shame is actually not going to be effective?

0:15:21 Naomi: Yeah. I don't really know if I could say, I really, the world we're living in right now where it just doesn't work the way it used to, and I think it's because we have very powerful people who are unashamed of their bigotry. Um, so like, why shouldn't the the regular person not feel that way, especially if they vote for someone or to their political beliefs or their social perspectives. So that maybe in the past, shame was, it's a good motivator to change yourself, to change your view, or it can have the opposite effect where it's like, I want to double down.

I don't want to accept it. I I don't want it to change me. Lot of it has to do with the political climate we're living in. And I can't say like all of these crowdfunding attempts have happened under Trump, like 2 .0. Some of them happened under Biden. Example, Daniel Penny, the man who killed Jordan Neely, a black houseless man on the New York subway. Of way, he raised think like, over a million dollars for his like legal campaign. As And you guys know, he was acquitted. That was, I believe, under Biden.

0:15:31 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

0:16:30 Lydia: Yeah.

0:16:31 Naomi: Know, that just might reflect like a pattern or like a trend that's kind of been changing over the past two years, regardless of who's like holding political power. I don't know, maybe just humans are moving away from like shame being, you, a good catalyst for change. Like, maybe it's just, you know, doesn't work that way anymore, so I can't really speak to what would be, you, alternative to that.

0:16:49 Thomas: Well, well, We have our views and our theories. Like, I think that your culture has been just weaponized on, talk about the difference between maybe some of more left or mainstream fundraising where it's like, oh, someone needs a kidney, someone, someone needs a whatever, or someone's a victim of something, an attack or whatever. I think this is that for them. They view these people as the genuine victims of this mythological thing they've created where there's this massively powerful D.I. machine, you know, whatever.

Like, it's just this whole story after story for them is what we cover, is these made up or overblown stories about how repressive the, don't know, diversity is or something like this, this unnamed kind of group of people that's always somehow in control and always in power, despite Republicans controlling literally every single aspect of government. So it's a victimhood thing.

I think what has been very effective, and I guess in a way is kind of the best case you'd hope for, is hopefully people have just gotten so lost in wanting to, quote, trigger the libs or whatever, you know, like that they've lost track of that. That's like the best case.

You know, maybe there's some of those people, but otherwise, I think it's been a pretty concerted concerted effort to take people from, you oh, this is we're just doing it to to to own the libs to where they've lost track of what that even is. And now they're just due in racism, like they're Just they're, just plain old due in Racism, and that triggers the lives, but it also should just be offensive to any decent person. You know, they've lost that.

0:17:06 Lydia: Right.

0:18:30 Naomi: Mean, like, in some circles on the the right, you know, maybe more center-right people, you know, should feel offended by that and feel like that you know, goes against their personal convictions, but I think one thing I've been been noticing under the second Trump administration is a lot of people, you think, um, or politicians that you think are more moderate, you know, they do lean more conservative, but, you, you're more rational, um... like, their politics. They've stayed silent, um…... in cases like this. Um…... haven't shown up and held other people on the right accountable.

0:18:37 Thomas: You would hope.

0:19:00 Lydia: Yeah.

0:19:01 Naomi: Like…... that's because being a Republican or being, you, anywhere on the right side of, I guess, the political spectrum, that identity is just like completely splintered right now. And we have, like, this massive growing camp of people who are extremists. Group of people or people who identify with, you know, some of the worst and most devastating and hurtful kind of views of the the world, um, and views of people in the world they they live in. This ecosystem and they can just kind of feed off of each other, and I think that's what the big thing about Hendrix's campaign, because just for the most part existed amongst far-right extremists and enough of those people that like can raise thousands of dollars, um, Yeah, I can. Absolutely.

0:19:35 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, they

0:19:44 Lydia: Right. Can stay insular, right? Yeah. Yeah,

0:19:50 Thomas: Got their own version of everything. Now they got the MAGA dating. They got the mega pay apps. They've created enough of their own separate world that it can kind of function. It didn't used to be able to function independently. And now it kind of can. It's scary.

0:20:00 Lydia: Eerie.

0:20:03 Naomi: Agree. I self -sustaining. And more, you that we kind of slide into an authoritarian state and, Know, politics become redefined by Trump and his administration, I think that group of people are just going to become more powerful and emboldened and just kind of isolate even more from, like, the general population, from people who are more moderate, people on the left, because they can take care of themselves. And it's really clear through these crowdfunding campaigns that you do something objectively wrong and cruel and bigoted, racist, etc., you will have people there to support you. So not, I don't, there's an intentionality about going viral role for calling a child the n-word, but, like, okay, in the end, because there's people who will back you up, people who will get you to, like, a better place in life than you were before you did what you did.

0:20:54 Thomas: You'll be on Fox News sometimes, times. It's the either that, or if you get fifth place in a swimming competition, you're set, you're set, you know you're just Absolutely.

0:20:54 Naomi: Yeah. Exactly, yeah.

0:20:56 Lydia: Yeah. You're set for life. I

0:21:03 Thomas: Set, yeah.

0:21:07 Lydia: That's especially disturbing about this incident is like, come to expect that adults can be completely evil to each other and say horrific things to each other. But the fact that this woman said something like that to a five year old is just beyond comprehension for me. And the fact that people are willing to rally behind that, it wasn't that she said, you know, that she grabbed him by the wrist and said, what do you think you're doing? You know, you're not allowed to do that. I would still have a problem with that. But that's in a completely different league than using a racial slur against an innocent kid. I when you think about the right and idea that, Know, you we need to protect children.

We need to, you keep them from the evils of X, Y and Z unless they're a black kid, I guess. And then we can just treat them however we feel like. And it's just that's one of the saddest things to me from that story in particular. I don't know how you feel about that, like from from, your experience as being a black person and kind of what that meant for you.

0:21:22 Thomas: Yeah.

0:22:07 Naomi: Always just terrible to see, um, people in this country kind of know that as a reality, and it has always been that way, I think, in this kind of, I don't want to say it's like brazen, but maybe it got more attention simply because more people able were to see it because it went viral. Um, I've noticed is I just, like, um, like, waded through far right Twitter. Um, like, like, genuinely do did not see the little boy as a, a boy child.

0:22:24 Lydia: Yeah. Oh, God.

0:22:35 Naomi: Was a lot of people who were speculating and they're like, he doesn't look like he's five. No five -year -old's that tall.

0:22:34 Thomas: Wow. Oh, my God. Are you kidding me? Oh,

0:22:42 Lydia: Wow.

0:22:42 Naomi: He has, he is autism too.

0:22:42 Lydia: Wow.

0:22:45 Thomas: God, I didn't even know that. Oh.

0:22:45 Naomi: Oh, he doesn'T have autism.

0:22:46 Thomas: Wait, yeah.

0:22:47 Naomi: The parents are lying about it. You There's just so many ways to rationalize what she did. Like, it doesn'T matter or if he's five or eight, if he is neurotypical or neurodivergent, you never call a child a racial slur. That is traumatizing. It is cruel. And no one should ever have to go through that, regardless of what they do as a child. He's If 5 years old and he's going through your diaper bag, know she has kids. She knows that at that age, their aren't developed to the point where they're able to make the best decisions or even think about the decisions that they're making. And then add to that that he on the spectrum, um, just makes it even worse. Now, I can't say she knew about him being autistic when it happened, but all she saw was a black child and her response wasn't "don't touch my stuff." It was "you are the n-word, you are acting like the n-word." Um,

0:22:59 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:23:13 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. That's, I mean, to my point earlier, there's no plausible deniability in this whatsoever. If there's the opposite of that, like, only that it's proudly what it is. I, in the same way that I've kind of miss corporate pride now that's gone, it's like, it was kind of bullshit, but now that, you know, we have, like, actively discrimination instead of corporate pride, you're like, boy, sure could use a meaningless rainbow on something, right, now yeah, like in the same way the, it gets real mask off moment and it's like, man, maybe, maybe it's better with the mask on. Well, okay, it's not better with a mask on, but it was was a better better indicator society that people felt a need to have their mask on, you about this kind of stuff. And all those facts you brought up. I can't even imagine why they're remotely relevant. Like no, you know? There's no connection to any of that, to making a slur. Okay.

You the fact that that could even be part of the conversation worries me a lot. Like that, that's how these people are thinking that that would justify it. It's like, Like, no, at best, I thought the same with the Rittenhouse thing where it's like, OK, if if you wanted to defend him, which I don't understand, but if you did, I still don't understand why that would change you from, you being like, oh, he shouldn't be punished by the law to, oh.

I'm actively going to hero worship him like that's just a different thing. That means you are hero worshiping the killing of black people. There's if you wanted to say maybe he shouldn't be punished by the law and you have some sympathy for that, which I don't agree with. But if you want to say that, that's one thing. It's entirely another thing to want to give money to these people and hold them up as heroes. It is really disturbing.

And it just like so I was so shocked by this. And, you know, it's just not a good sign. I just really worried. I don' know if there's anything else in the article you want talk about along those lines, any other fundraisers or anything else you came across. But this is just disturbing.

0:23:57 Lydia: Yeah. Take whatever we can get at this point. Yeah.

0:25:22 Naomi: The next best one or the most, like, fruitful fundraiser would be, you, the ones that were set up for Jonathan Ross, um, the ICE agent that murdered Rene Good, um, a couple of months ago, he, this was a coordinated fundraising campaign. Um, was a GoFundMe. Um. I'm blanking on like how much they raised, but it was over $500 ,000. Um? And it was set up by like a friend of the family or no, set up for just like a random guy who

0:25:34 Thomas: Right. Yeah. There's some guy that I think you said just like does this.

0:25:51 Naomi: Just like this random guy who was, this is different from that guy. Um! Was pretty much like, he shouldn't have gotten in trouble. Let's raise money for his family. People were like, yep, yep. And they started donating. And then we have a more extremist person who calls himself Tom Hennessy. And I still wish I could figure out like who this person actually is, but he set up a give, send, go. And the caption was just awful. It was riddled with anti-Semitism and like white supremacist kind of way of supporting Ross. Um, then I guess they both coordinated together, the the people who set up both the fundraisers, and they were able to get all that money to his family. Um, it appears that Ross was okay with that, with the money coming from, you know, a fundraiser where the description was incredibly problematic. Um,

0:25:54 Lydia: Okay.

0:25:54 Thomas: Oh, okay. Right. Yeah. Again, you want some plausible deniability. You wouldn't do that. You know, like if you were just a good guy, you would, you'd be like, well, okay, I don't support this. Like, well, I'm not going to take that money. Right?

0:26:45 Naomi: Yeah. Like you should question it. Um, I guess the first one on GoFundMe was you I was explicit and it's bigotry. It was like, he he shouldn't get in trouble for what he did, give help me support his family. And then you have another one, it's like, we need to fight back against, like, the liberal politics and um the Jewish mayor of um, Minneapolis.

0:27:05 Lydia: Wow. Wow!

0:27:05 Thomas: Yikes.

0:27:07 Naomi: And could see why he might pull from the first one because it's like, it's just support him, but the other one is, it's so clear who they're trying to you get to donate. Like, if you read that description and you're like, yep. Like, does that say about you? What does it say about the the donors to that campaign specifically, you know, more than just people who support ICE or you police officers, etc.? They are extremists who like want to channel that all that rage and all of that you sympathy for someone into you them financially. Um, was really interesting. And I'm as of right now, I haven't seen how those campaigns are going. It might be closed and it might be open. Would But be curious to see, since I wrote the story, how much money has been raised since then.

0:27:15 Thomas: Yeah, boy.

0:27:56 Lydia: Rate of return for those different campaigns.

0:27:58 Naomi: Yeah, exactly.

0:28:02 Thomas: Just wish we had some. And I don't know if this is anything that, you know, you'd have an about based on this reporting, but I just wish I knew how much of this was people always thought these things and just were afraid to say it versus people actually being radicalized, you, cause like I said, I don't know how long you've been doing this, but like, I've been doing this at least through the 2010s and it was different. It was bad, but it was different.

There was always a story. There's always a story about, Oh no, you don't understand this. It was a misunderstanding. They didn't even know that this was blah, blah, blah, like there's all this plausible deniability. And I just wonder when it comes to now, I just, I just want to know, I wonder how much of that was that always bullshit.

I thought it was always bullshit in terms of the people know, the personalities that were making those arguments online, but I wasn't sure about like regular people, like how much do regular people buy into these ideas versus are they being radicalized or is this how they've always thought? And they just were afraid to say it. Cause I sort of feel like if this is how they always believed, I mean, I would rather we knew, you know? Like, I guess

0:29:02 Naomi: Yeah.

0:29:02 Thomas: I it's just, I'm not sure if you have any thoughts on that. Apologies. It's a poorly framed question, but if you Have any thoughts, I'd love to hear them.

0:29:08 Naomi: Very good question. I think, unfortunately, we'd never know. We're never going to know. I thing that stood out to me when I was listening to is that social media is playing such role in the success of crowdfunding campaigns. And I think the thing is like, if, people from like I of like, on the right who supported Hendrix's campaign. There's people who are just like free speech to people who were like, "You me comment. Let me send you $10,000. And every time I do it, I'm going to comment a letter of the N-word."

0:29:12 Thomas: Yeah. God.

0:29:41 Naomi: Like just like such a range of people. Assuming, and I obviously can't speak to it, but I people might like feel, you, this is great. Like, someone did what I want to do or did something the way I think and they shouldn't be punished, because if I was in that position, I wouldn't want to be punished. I want to support people who think the same way I do. And I think there's also people like they donate five dollars and they're like, you shouldn't have been treated like this. You should be able to say what you want. So it's just like really hard to know. And when like gets so much attention on like platforms like X, which we know now, it's juste like a really right coded site.

0:30:16 Lydia: Yeah.

0:30:17 Naomi: Can figure that most people are on that side of the spectrum, But there very well could be some people who are more moderate and are just passionate about things like the First Amendment.

0:30:16 Thomas: Yeah, but don't Don't you think if they saw that description, they would maybe that's what I was going to say is like, OK, it's one thing if you thought, oh, this person got railroaded by, I don't know, cancel culture that doesn't actually exist. Then you read that description. How could anyone in good conscience donate to that? I they're not reading. That's my best case.

0:30:33 Naomi: Yeah,

0:30:42 Thomas: Like maybe they're Not Big Readers.

0:30:41 Lydia: Yeah, right.

0:30:45 Naomi: Know. I wish I knew. It's like I think any, you good person would look at that and be like, oh, my God, this is horrible. Favorable, um, right, maybe they aren't reading. There's definitely a possibility of that, or maybe they're hearing a version of the story that isn't as bad as, like, it was. Like, there's just really no way to know. But, you know, the weird thing about it is that even people who seem closer to the center of the political spectrum found the fundraiser or were shown the fundraizer and then gave money to it.

So mean, it makes you wonder, like, what is, like, the reach that these organizers have? How picks it up? Who shares it? You know, what are the big voices giving attention to it? It's with, like, a very modest goal, probably, like, a couple thousand dollars, but she saw, and the people who were helping her saw, that was, like, an, like, amount of support. They're like, why not, know, just keep increasing it, keep increase it. There's, like, people who want to do it. So why not, you set the goal higher? And people met that goal. They are trying actively. There are people today, a year later, still giving money.

0:30:46 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:31:18 Lydia: Yeah...

0:31:47 Thomas: What in the world? Slash

0:31:49 Naomi: A lot of people out there who want want to be anonymous in their support, who want to show their support, um, donating money, and it's really great, like, crowdfunding platforms are, like, the perfect place to do it because your name doesn't have to show up. Most of these people are anonymous, um, you do not know who they are. Some of them, you out themselves as being, like, a white supremacist and, like, you know, the message that they send or, like, what name they, like, they decide to use, um, but a lot of people it's like five bucks and it's anonymous donor and don't know who they are, but we do know that they were able to come across a fundraiser like that, so, like, systematic, like, of attempts and ways to, like, have your fundraiser get circulated.

Um, scary. Um, you can get so rich, like, you can just get make so much money. Um, that's what floored me about it. I was like, she's she's gonna make a million dollars and she gets all that money. Um, she puts it towards is a different thing, but she made a million dollars off of calling a a black autistic child the n-word.

0:32:35 Lydia: Yeah.

0:32:54 Lydia: We know if all of these donations are coming from America, or do you you think that there's potential, like, money involvement that

0:33:02 Thomas: Can this hopefully just be like one super racist with a bot farm, like, please, you know, that would be like the best case.

0:33:08 Naomi: Yeah, um, unfortunately, no.

0:33:11 Thomas: Damn.

0:33:11 Naomi: Um.

0:33:11 Lydia: Probably.

0:33:11 Thomas: It Yeah, it was worth a shot. Oh.

0:33:12 Lydia: Not.

0:33:15 Naomi: I believe Give, Send, Go is a Canadian company or by Canadians. I know they made a lot of fundraisers existed on there for the truckers convoy. That was like 2020. There was like a very fruitful fundraisters on there. Do not know if you need to be like located in the U .S. or like in North America to donate. There's a possibility that people like overseas are out. I say, though, it's probably most likely that they're Americans or, not quite sure. I actually don't think I ever found that out when I was doing my reporting.

0:33:18 Lydia: OK. Yeah.

0:33:26 Thomas: Right. Yeah. Was Any of this on, like, mainstream, like, Fox News channels or anything? Like, I know the ICE agent murder one guy that got a ton of mainstream coverage. I would, I would hope that this woman calling a child the N-word wasn't like a big mainstream cause celeb, but am I wrong? Did you try to say any of that?

0:33:58 Lydia: Daniel Penny. Yeah, yeah.

0:34:09 Naomi: Don't Think it was, and that's because it's kind of just repulsive, you in the case of Daniel Penny, there was a lot of conversation there. Like he was being violent, like he needed to be subdued. You people are violent. This guy, Penny, white savior. He was in the Army or I think he was in, you know, he did what he had to do to protect everyone. York City is riddled with crime and, you, people with untreated mental illness. And was just a lot there to go off of. You in this case, it's like black and white. It's a video of a woman calling a man behind the camera the n-word and then admitting to calling a black child the n-word. Um, honestly, even a couple outlets pick it up. I don't think, I don't think Fox News did it, or maybe not, like, kind of blasting the coverage. But, like

0:34:12 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right. Yeah,

0:34:23 Lydia: Savior, you know. Yeah mm hmm. I almost

0:34:56 Naomi: The New York Post.

0:34:57 Lydia: Wonder if they're like, we can't even spin this. Like, we're not going to touch it. Yeah.

0:35:00 Thomas: So. Yeah,

0:35:01 Naomi: I think that honestly, I agree. Like you can't. It's just so clear. The New York post, which, you like aligns with kind of right or like conservative views. They even said this is messed up. Like you shouldn't be doing that. And they're reporting of it. Why I'm thinking it was mostly circulating amongst amongst, like, personalities online, groups online that were more aligned with or accepting of, like, this really blatant, like, I. So don't think Nick Fuentes was linking, like, Send, Go page, but he was definitely saying, like, this happens, like, I support it, you. I think once you make it into, like, a free speech thing, then a lot of people come out of the woodwork to defend it and very well could be, like, any, I guess, political leaning, but they feel passionate about the first amendment. Yeah

0:35:11 Lydia: Yeah.

0:35:14 Thomas: Wow.

0:35:49 Thomas: Long as they don't read that freaking description, otherwise then I'm going to go ahead and say you're of a particular leaning. For

0:35:52 Naomi: I mean

0:35:55 Lydia: Well, I have her fundraiser up right now. And like, if the only thing you consume is this has been shared with you is this fundraiser and not the actual video. It just says, I recently had a kid steal from my 18 month old son's diaper bag at a park. I called the kid out for what he was.

0:36:10 Thomas: What he was.

0:36:11 Lydia: All she says. If that's all you're consuming, I could see, yeah, yeah, Yeah, a free speech person, if that's all you've seen of this, being like, oh, yeah, that's not okay. Maybe.

0:36:12 Thomas: God. Yeah, I guess.

0:36:13 Naomi: It's misleading Yeah

0:36:23 Lydia: I don't know. I'm trying to find any way that that could work, but yeah.

0:36:23 Thomas: No, I mean, maybe, but I don't know. Jeez.

0:36:25 Naomi: Yeah. I think you read the updates, you'd see a couple of dog whistles sprinkled in there. Um, we had moved somewhere with like amazing demographics.

0:36:33 Lydia: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

0:36:34 Thomas: Dog whistles to put it lightly. Yeah. Oh

0:36:38 Naomi: Like that's gotta be a sign, you know, it's yeah. She said that I'm sure if you look, you'll see it. Um then if you went a little deeper, like I did and you found the video, you found like her update video, she posted an update video online, um, very happy. She said, I got all my money. She said, I'm grateful to all these white supremacists to help me. I reached out to them. Really happy. We're tribing up. This is what happens. Like, you know, we can fight back. You know what I mean? We shouldn't be scared. And then she's not saying it, but she's saying it.

0:36:39 Thomas: My God. Really?

0:36:40 Lydia: Wow.

0:36:52 Thomas: She's in a Klan hood. Yeah?

0:37:12 Thomas: Yeah.

0:37:12 Naomi: And that was for a lot of people. Very exciting. Yeah.

0:37:15 Lydia: Here's an exam. Here's a sample. I just found one of those updates. Per your recommendation, father is teaching them how to be strong men, and we are both teaching them the importance of preserving our existence.

0:37:25 Thomas: Yeah.

0:37:26 Naomi: Yeah. So that's a little that's a sign. And if you read just the basic description, you're you're like, you're right. You could just be like, oh, free speech. She shouldn't be getting in trouble for exercising her First Amendment rights. But you read a little deeper, and I just don't know how many people are doing it or if they don't care.

0:37:26 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah.

0:37:28 Thomas: White genocide. Yeah Yeah.

0:37:45 Naomi: A lot worse than that. And I think the tough part about it is that the repercussions for this, she's seen, I guess, some, like, with the doxing and, guess, her information being leaked and her feeling unsafe, but she's saying now that she's moved, her location is private, she talked to her lawyer, um, she was charged with, um, I think three counts of, like, um

0:37:44 Lydia: Disorderly Conduct. Yeah. Like

0:38:09 Thomas: That's what it said in the article, disorderly conduct. And And then everything the lawyer said sounded to me like it didn't apply to disorderly conduct. Sounded like he was trying to defend like a defamation or or like an inciting violence thing. But it seemed fishy to me. I don't know.

0:38:10 Naomi: Conduct. Yeah.

0:38:22 Naomi: To him, he was pretty much like, this literally never happens. No one gets prosecuted for saying a slur. Able to do that. This is a country where there's free speech.

And he explained to me, he said, there's very few situations in which you can, can get in trouble, I guess, legally for saying something, like the fighting words doctrine, um, for example, um, believes, and I think Hendrix knows because she's obviously still in touch with him and has been showing up to, like, her court appearances, um, believes it's just, it should not be a case at all, um, like harm to someone or, like, trauma isn't enough, um, charge someone, you know, with, know, a crime, um, last motion he filed was to dismiss the charges, um, and get them thrown out, so I don't really know what's happening, but when I spoke to him he seemed very, very that your case was going to die, um, then once that, that happens it's really like over for her and she's getting off scot-free if that's, like, the outcome, um, interestingly enough, I think a lot of people in her position would grift a little bit more, um, beyond, like, the money they would, you, Kyle Rittenhouse, for example, yeah

0:39:35 Naomi: Media appearances, books, like, into politics themselves, like Riley Gaines, for example, she, like, becoming, like, a political powerhouse in, like, the past couple years, but he told me, the lawyer's, like, she doesn't want that, and she herself said, I'm not interested in that, um, that's, that, you know, there's, I think there's people out there who, you, do the bad thing, they collect the money, and then that's it, um, think if she ever wanted to, um, of come out with her story and start making media appearances, I think she'd get a lot of support, um, I guess it's not on everyone's radar, like, not everyone has that, you hope and goal in mind after getting that much attention

0:39:34 Lydia: Media appearances, it's

0:40:12 Thomas: Yeah, I'm just curious about the if it's disorderly conduct. I mean, I mean I'm not a lawyer, but we do have a legal show and a lot of legal coverage. It's just something about it seemed weird the way he was framed. I know like we have a lot experience with these bullshit stories and often they frame it. One of their best tricks is, yeah, she's just getting in trouble for this. And then it turns out they're actually getting in trouble for a totally different thing. Now, I'm not saying that's happening here, but it just seemed weird. Like the way he was defending it, it disorderly conduct. It wouldn't really be dependent on the victims like emotional, you know, because it's not a civil case. It's not a, you Know, like disorder. The conduct is more they were disorderly in public and it's, you know, like it doesn't really matter the effect on the I don't know. We'll see. I maybe we'll keep an eye on like what goes on there. Maybe there's maybe I'm wrong, but It just seemed something about it seemed off to me. Who knows?

0:40:46 Lydia: Criminal, it's

0:40:59 Naomi: It's a little complex because under Minnesota state law, like, the parameters around free speech and what can be considered disorderly conduct are a little stricter, like Like, if you say something that could, you, damaging to someone or cause distress, like, you can charge them with disorderly conduct.

0:41:09 Thomas: Yeah. Well, I mean, typical disorderly conduct could just be wandering around drunk yelling. Free speech doesn't come into it or something. You know, you're never like, that's why I'm just wondering. Maybe, yeah, you probably read something in the details that I haven't gotten to. I'm curious about it because you could be yelling totally innocuous stuff, but you're yelling and causing a scene. It's disorderly. It's not. I don't think the First Amendment comes into that calculation all the time. So who knows.

0:41:23 Naomi: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:41:41 Thomas: Boy. Boy, well, and then I think you also said now, was it this case or a different one where the the, you actual victims tried to raise money? Was it this one or am I mixing up another one?

0:41:51 Naomi: In this case, the family of the boy and then the local chapter of the NAACP did send setup. I it was GoFundMe's, but they closed those fundraisers after like they hit their goals.

0:42:04 Thomas: Didn't they have a hard time? I mean, just comparatively, like there wasn't much public support, was there?

0:42:09 Lydia: Like a fraction, yeah. Hmm.

0:42:12 Naomi: I think It's because perhaps like it didn't circulate the way Hendrix's fundraiser did, but did support it. You know, it's like, you fundraise or versus that of Renee Goods. Like they both did well. Like they hit their goals, maybe even more. Difference, I think, is that they closed it out. You know what I mean? They didn't keep it open. One is for the family of a child who is now like emotionally traumatized and scarred. And then one is for a woman who is like in her racism. Racism.

0:42:17 Thomas: Yeah, sure. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

0:42:33 Lydia: Yeah.

0:42:44 Naomi: Um, think they both did well, and people wanted to support the boy's family, and they did. Um, it wasn't like an ongoing thing, like the fundraiser is not up now, it's done. It was done a long time ago. Um, and they both saw support. Um.

0:43:00 Thomas: I think he said it was like nine thousand. Is way different than a million freaking dollars. But I guess because the NAACP, it seems like they were helping based on your article that they did get quite a bit of money through that. But again, I guess it just goes to show like the difference in priority. You know, I think Renee Goode, I think, is a tough example because that is a national story. I think that's going to be perhaps a little different.

0:43:14 Naomi: Right. Yeah.

0:43:17 Lydia: Yeah.

0:43:23 Thomas: When it comes, it just is such a bummer, too, when you look at the people who are utilizing GoFundMe for its intended thing, which is being American health care. You know. You have someone who's, you know, needs an operation to live and they can't raise money. And yet someone calls someone a slur, calls a child a racial slur and they're rich now. It's pretty disturbing. What's next on the horizon for you? I mean, you have so much good reporting as going back through your work. Did anything result from this that you're following up on? Are you on to a new story? What are you working on?

0:43:53 Naomi: Have a piece coming out soon about, um, shooting of, um, King Jr., a Black man, um, was killed by a white police officer or last month in Boston, and it's mostly stayed like in the local news. I'll get like a little more of kind national attention to it. It's a pretty big story. The family, Ben Crump is representing the family, and he represented the families of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, notable victims of police brutality. Then the police officer is being represented by the lawyer who defended Karen Reed, a woman who was accused of killing her who was a police officer, and she was acquitted. We have like some big players in that. But Still, it's just kind of existing in like the Boston reporting ecosystem. So coming out about that. And then besides that, I have been doing some additional reporting on conservative influencers influencers, um, their impact online, so you, that's what's up.

0:44:07 Lydia: Oh. Wow, oh. Yeah. Yeah.

0:44:37 Thomas: Yeah.

0:44:52 Thomas: Looking

0:44:52 Naomi: Next. Thank

0:44:53 Thomas: Forward to it.

0:44:53 Lydia: Looking forward to all of that stuff. Sounds great.

0:44:55 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks so much for joining us. We really appreciate you taking the time. It's a great article. Keep up the great work and hopefully we can stay in touch. This was good stuff.

0:44:56 Lydia: Oh.

0:45:03 Naomi: You both so much for having me. On you.

0:45:04 Thomas: Absolutely. And do you want to point our listeners anywhere? I mean American Prospect, is there anywhere else you want to point listeners personally for you or anything?

0:45:11 Naomi: Prospect, um. Are a wonderful newsroom. Um, we actually very recently stopped, um, um, on our site, which Is very big for, for a paper publication, um, general that, like, it's free to access. Um, so now we have like a completely different site experience. Um. Just been really amazing to work for, um. An organization that, like, really prioritizes its readers.

0:45:12 Thomas: Right. Wow.

0:45:19 Lydia: Cool.

0:45:34 Naomi: Um prioritizes amazing like independent reporting. Um

0:45:34 Thomas: No kidding. So You're telling me I can open this on my phone and be able to see the site?

0:45:43 Naomi: Exactly. Exactly yeah. Yeah. And that's like really big. I mean, if you go on like a local news site, yeah, there's a million ads because, you paywall, you means you have to find the money somewhere else. But we don't have a paywall. Now we don' have ads.

0:45:46 Thomas: It is Yeah. It totally is. Yeah. Fantastic. That

0:45:57 Naomi: It's, it's amazing. Yeah. So I recommend checking out the site. Checking out the reporting that my amazing colleagues have done. The prospects like big, especially right now. We're doing work that is becoming increasingly hard to do. That's why I just, I'm very grateful and proud to like work for an organization like that.

0:46:15 Lydia: Cool, wonderful.

0:46:15 Thomas: Is really cool. Well, thank you so much for the time. We really appreciate it.

0:46:18 Naomi: You so much again.

0:46:20 Lydia: Wonderful.