DOD266: When You're A Virgin Who Can't Drive

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad, that's my thing I know now what I can offer you that no one else can Complete and under-dependent I'm a man, I'm sensitive I need to feel loved, I need part of being a father that I enjoy

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's just getting it out of the way. I'm Tom Curry. I am joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:38 Eli: Hello.

0:00:33 Thomas: I'm waiting for Eli to do his. Okay, we're talking about celebrating your disabled child's birthday, uh, today, uh.

0:00:42 Eli: Yeah, it's a - Juneteenth, what? Oh,

0:00:48 Tom: Wow. Wow. No, we don't celebrate Juneteenth anymore. That's been removed off the calendar, I think. So, yeah. We're not erasing history. We are just erasing history I

0:00:56 Eli: There's just been 10 ,000 years in the last two years. It's been a little hard to keep up.

0:01:04 Thomas: It's really a bummer, man.

0:01:06 Tom: Find like when I'm even like in my day job my my real life and I'll be talking to somebody on the phone I'm like okay so I think last week or yesterday or last month I I can't remember anything anymore but anyway I know this thing happened nobody bats an eye at that anymore because we're all living in this same insane time continuum where just like you can't keep track of tuesday from friday the other day hayley on friday was like wait it's not monday and I'm I'm like no it's the end of the week it is not the beginning of the week like it's that bad sometimes like it was like I don't not sure well it's fucking it's always march 32nd

0:01:39 Thomas: Oh, I guess that's the less depressing place to go with that. I was going with it. I can't believe how many things the fucking regime has taken away in the last minute. There

0:01:50 Tom: Well I think that's part of what adds to it yeah

0:01:51 Thomas: Was an actual good daily interview podcast or whatever by the serial lady who was like, I'm going to do something that's, you know, maybe not talking about a criminal that's actually a criminal. And she was talking about this poor woman's case, like civil rights case that was like, Oh my God, dude, what a fucking bummer. Obviously a good case as in a meritorious case where the, you Know, the fucking, was it Georgia or something? The state Senate somewhere, she was working as a legislative aide and she loved the job all this stuff and then she was found out she was getting paid way less than all the white people there and had like a great case and went through all this hell which you know I can tell you is hell going through like that legal stuff for years and then trump takes over and they just cancel her case there's like ah nope for no reason they just give up her kid there's no civil rights division anymore they just

0:02:06 Tom: Oh I listen to that yeah yeah

0:02:39 Thomas: Gave it up how are you guys dealing with the worst people in the world winning I'm mad a lot about it and it's like do do you have your kids ask about? And you're like, well, man, Arlo did one the other day because he talked about like, man I'm so glad I don't live in the past because I wouldn't want there to be like a war on me. I didn't, I was like, yeah. And then he's like, well, I guess there's wars now on people. And I was Like, yeah, yeah well, we have the evil person in charge of our country and he's doing wars on people so yeah, it's like what do you even say we're the bad guys and it sucks it's horrible

0:03:14 Tom: I love the language that he's using because it's kid language and it's accidentally perfectly grammatically accurate that you're doing war on

0:03:21 Thomas: Well I said that I'm the kid in question but

0:03:21 Tom: Somebody like not you're not at war with somebody it's like war on On somebody. Yeah. We talked about this a little bit the other day on Cogdisc. We did an AMA and somebody was asking, like, you know, like how do you guys keep sane when everything is like crazy and it's depressing and, you know, all that stuff. And yeah, like my first I was like, well, fucking reject the premise. First of all, that's just false. But like, I do think for me, at least I'm a voracious consumer of the news and I don't find it fills me too much with anxiety, mostly mostly because like, I recognize like my locus of control is small.

0:03:27 Thomas: Yeah oh we don't yeah yeah

0:03:58 Tom: It's really small. And I just have to keep reminding myself like, all right, well, I mean, this is at the end of the day, this is stuff that either will happen to me or won't happen to me. I can't control it. And I just, I just got to get fucking Buddhist about that shit to some degree.

0:04:10 Thomas: Oh yeah I don't really have anxiety in that way I'm just so fucking mad that these idiot fucking people who think reverse white racism is real are the ones who have now won and are ruining like black people's lives with this stuff like it's just it makes me me so mad because it's the worst kind of person. And it's the kind of personal, like they're literally the complainer who fucking does nothing, but just complains about other people's shit, which is the most unlike manly thing. I'm even triggered in my, I guess, unhealthy man brain of like you fucking child. Like all you're doing is complaining about what other people have and then fucking them over.

0:04:46 Thomas: Like it's the most childish thing. And they're, they're in charge. They're in church. She see those Doja depositions. I've sure you you guys saw those. Can you define, you know, DEI?

0:04:53 Tom: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Absolutely.

0:04:53 Eli: Oh God, insane.

0:05:01 Tom: No.

0:05:01 Thomas: That was 20 minutes of the guy being like, well, I just used the definition. Oh yeah, I know. But like, what do you think it is like right now as we're talking? Well, I'm not comfortable without the definite. No, no, this is a deposition. I get to ask you what you think is. And they can't even do it. Unbelievable.

0:05:19 Eli: I don't wanna answer that question. I know, that why it's deposition. Otherwise, I would have just texted you.

0:05:26 Thomas: These aren't usually like fun you know they're not like what job would you do if you could do any job yeah

0:05:33 Tom: Honestly, like to a large degree with the kids, like I would encourage them to pay less attention to the news because what are they going to do about it? You know, and I hate doing that. I really do, because it's antithetical to what I've always believed and like, I don't know, preached to some degree. But I feel like at some point it's like, all right, I mean, you guys have a pretty strong idea about what's right and wrong. That's been developed. That's not going to change. So that work is done. Now, just stop hurting yourself a

0:05:41 Thomas: Yeah

0:06:04 Eli: Let me hit you with this hot take, right? Because I think the response to that often is like, it's your responsibility to be informed. But the way 99 % of people consume news right now is irresponsible, right.

0:06:17 Tom: Million percent. Yep.

0:06:18 Eli: Your responsibility to me to be formed is not scrolling through Instagram, through your your fucking high school friends, worst takes, fake news and fucking green circle stories about the war in Iran. That's not informing you of anything that's inflaming your brain in the worst, most screen looky ways possible. So when someone's like, well, you know, I like to know what's going on in the world. And I'm like, oh, cool. So you read like the New York Times cover to cover every day. And the answer, of course, is no. Right. And look, I want to be very clear. I'm not saying that's the only way to be informed of the world, but if you think the infinite scroll is equivalent to or even close to vetted, printed journalism by the highest standard of journalistic integrity we have, right? I know we don't like their opinion section because they're a bunch of bigots and I wish Bari Weiss would get eaten by bears too. But the fact of the matter is the new york times is good at journalism and if you don't believe that you should know you are on the other side of the horseshoe as your vax denying uncle right he's worse than you but you guys are facing each other and he's like fuck yeah timmy you're damn right they don't know shit you got that bfa and drama you know what's up you fucking you make that wire jewelry you got a podcast they probably don't no you know right that's

0:07:41 Eli: Another big part of the like how do you deal with the the terrors of the world is like, it depends on the terrrors of the world that you're talking about, right? Because a tremendous amount of these so -called terrors of the word, at this point, are self -inflicted, are people who have wildly dangerous, unhealthy relationships with social media and fake news and parasocial relationships and fucking advocacy that they understand nothing about. And then they're like, I'm facing the truth and it's like, baby, comrade, you have not had a relationship to reality since 2013. 13. You have not touched the base of grass since Obama was president. You have been spun by an algorithm into a gibbering loon two degrees away from naturalgreenmommy .com. Yeah!

0:08:27 Tom: Yeah, I mean, unsurprisingly, like I in our book that Cecil and I wrote and then on my blog, like, I've I have held out, you know, you have to have like an actual methodology that you can articulate, in my opinion, for how you will consume news and not just, well, I do this and I scroll through that and I look at that. Like, no, if you're going to be a responsible news consumer, you should be able to articulate your methodology for how you'll be informed. That's really, really hard. That's real. Really, really, hard. And part of that methodology will be how will you actively avoid being misinformed? And again, really really hard so you're not going to do that. And most people aren't. And you're still going to vote the right way. Then you can kind of take yourself out of that circle for the kids. Right. Right. So you're already going to do the only thing that you can do that matters as just a regular person. What can you do? You fucking show up every time without fail and you vote. That's what you do. That's the most important thing you can Do. So many people don't do it. So many young people don'T do itIt's insane. It was one of the things I look forward to the most when I was turning 18 was like, I can't wait to vote. I've never missed a chance to vote,

0:09:36 Thomas: He's like Dukakis here I come I can't fucking wait

0:09:39 Tom: But like so many people just bail on that. Like I voted as soon as I could possibly vote. And like, I don't understand if you're already doing that and you really don't have any money. Right. Because you're a young person. So you don't Have any economic control of the world. You can't do anything meaningful. Dollars and cents wise. And just stop hurting yourself. Just stop raising

0:10:01 Eli: And again, social media convinces us that scrolling and posting and liking and commenting and calling out and all that bullshit, all that meaningless bullshit that feeds the algorithm and nothing else is advocacy.

0:10:11 Tom: Awareness. Yep.

0:10:16 Eli: Look, you might not be able to stop the war in Iran, but I bet there's a volunteer center near you. I bet you can help out at a soup kitchen. I bet you can do all that kind of stuff. So a lot of the time when someone says like, Oh, I'm powerless, there's nothing I can do. It's like, actually you can do a fucking ton of stuff there's still infrastructure for helping people around you all the time right now. What it won't do is impress the gibbering ghouls on your facebook but like are you fucking trying to impress your uncle frank who thinks that hillary clinton eats babies no I never think anyone from my hometown who's like fucking we might be in iran but I ran so far away from my thoughts that it doesn't matter to me like I don't fucking care what those people think and you shouldn't care what the people think who are like it would be exactly the same joe biden was the war mongering and then spent like those people People are in psychosis. You don't owe them or the guy on the subway car who thinks you might be full of Chinese bugs. You owe them the same amount

0:11:20 Tom: Bro.

0:11:20 Eli: Of serious conversation about your advocacy. But because, again, like, and this is such a problem for our generation, right? Right. It's such an interesting thing because I talk to my students and my students are so acutely aware that the Internet is a fake barrel of poison that I'm finished drinking it. And I stumble into the classroom and I'm like, oh, guys, I feel so sick from drinking the poison. And they're like, Oh, you shouldn't, you should drink that. We grew up with people trying to fuck us in that barrel.

0:11:38 Thomas: I hope that's true because we're fucked no

0:11:49 Eli: It's true. It is. It's constant.

0:11:49 Tom: Bro

0:11:51 Thomas: I know I hope it's true that the youngins like are better about this but the numbers aren't looking good about stuff I don't know

0:11:57 Tom: I love you but like you're at NYU

0:11:59 Eli: I'm at MSU. I'm in Montclair State. I am at a university.

0:12:01 Tom: What? Oh yeah you're okay you're at a university though I don't want to be a an asshole too much but like you're not exposed to the most people right remember most people aren't going to college so the people that you're exposed to are already sort of a self -selected group of people that is not representative of the whole

0:12:15 Eli: Yes, 100%. Well, and I'll add to that, because I think if you ask me what we have gotten wrong the most over the last decade, it is the underlying belief that we share, that we liberals share values with most Americans. I've said this and I've owned this on the air before. I thought Kamala was going to crush him because I believed deep down me and my fellow Americans shared values of goodness, of selflessness, of kindness, and that it was okay to be tricked, that a bunch of people got tricked in 2015. And there are problems about that. There are problems about thinking that needed to be addressed. But now that we had all seen, now that мы had all experienced, right, we saw the win with Joe Biden, we saw them win in the midterms, and now we as a nation, folk are just folk, we're going to come out as a whole and say, no, of course, we don't want that. And the answer is, absolutely not.

0:13:21 Eli: And that's for me to own. The way that I think about myself as a consumer of politics changed with this election because I was deeply, deeply wrong about what my fellow Americans care about. And if I'm not willing to change with that revelation, then I'm part of the problem.

0:13:39 Tom: Yeah I actually could not possibly agree more I was 100 I'm part of the

0:13:42 Thomas: That you're a part of the problem tom says it all the time he's like eli is a part of the problem

0:13:45 Tom: Problem yeah yeah eli you're a part of them yeah yeah yeah I really thought the same thing man I thought like okay I actually thought I am very happy that Trump is running again because he's a fucking clown and everybody knows it now and there's no way after the fucking debacle of his presidency and how horrible it was and the nightmare that it was I was through I was like he's the fucking guy's unelectable. The emperor has no clothes and everybody can see it. And then I'm wrong. I'm wrong. And so, you know, I have had to completely rethink how I think.

0:14:19 Thomas: Guys we did it again our podcast ascended into this exact conversation again fuck reset the sign god damn it days since last fucking depressed about the thing the only thing worse than trump then not think then thinking the country was better than trump

0:14:25 Tom: Yeah, no. All right. We got to do something different. Parenting, parenting.

0:14:38 Eli: Yes. You do the whole thing? I thought you were going to do the full thing. You were just jumping me. Okay, you were... Well, I was going to give you a shot. I thought maybe you were stepping up to the plate. Yes, the auto ads. Interrupting your listening experience. By now, you've probably heard seven eight nine hundred of those ads but you can make them go away over at patreon.com forward slash dear old dads where you get a commercial free version of every single show plus a little parenting story at the end this month for the bonus we did an ama with aislen and donovan tom's stepkids it was a ton of fun it was fun to connect with those kids it was fine to hear about tom from their perspective it was just really really sweet and lovely I ran all my new newspeak past them it turns out I am in fact

0:14:38 Thomas: Is the auto ads no I'm just triggering your job you're funnier yeah hey you know I appreciate that oh man yeah you folks need to hear that so

0:15:28 Eli: Lame so for those of you who are coming to me for the cutting edge of culture I might might not exactly be there but you can find all of it over at patreon .com forward slash dear old dads like the trump presidency into our political consciousness religiousness, rip into it.

0:15:28 Thomas: Delightful uh Oh, damn it

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0:15:52 Tom: Right. So we don't have an email or anything. We have an actual, honest to God, genuine American patriotic topic to talk about today. Eli, you wanted to talk about the weirdness and the pressure and the specific intersection between masculinity and men and the pleasure of like losing virginity. So yeah, start us off, buddy.

0:16:11 Eli: Losing virginity, taking virginity. Yeah. So I was thinking about this the other day. I was talking about the topics that we haven't covered because we've been dadding for a while now and we've traipsed a lot of ground. As Thomas pointed out earlier in the episode, we do occasionally just devolve into how horrible social media and the government is. That's that's one of our go tos. But like, what haven't we talked about? And I thought about it. And one of the things that came up where I think toxic masculinity definitely affected me and I'm interested to hear if it affected you as well was the toxic expectations around losing your virginity taking virginity and how much virginity mattered

0:16:50 Tom: And also I would want to throw in there like the weird way that men will prize virginity as like something in a partner. I took her virginity or she's a virgin or like virgins are more uh you know desirable like that's a weirdly male-to-female directionality issue I've literally never heard a woman ever like think about that at all I mean even bring it up think about it but like the manosphere is fucking obsessed with that shit that

0:17:17 Thomas: My favorite thing is those memes that reverse it and they're like uh the male penis after having sex, like several times, you know, like does the reverse of, you know, men saying that vaginas are somehow like, but yeah, I love it.

0:17:28 Tom: Gets widened or something yeah we'll

0:17:31 Thomas: So the penis gets ruined after a few times. It's totally just stretched out and awful or not stretched out. Would that be? I don't know. I'm not sure how it does it, but it's funny.

0:17:27 Eli: The stretched out vagina

0:17:40 Tom: Get like it'll be like it's squeezed thinner like it just loses its girth over time. Eli, I guess, what was your experience in terms of, did you feel pressure?

0:17:41 Eli: Thing okay squeeze thinner

0:17:49 Thomas: Have you lost it or? Wow.

0:17:50 Eli: I'm still excited I'm waiting for it Anna says

0:17:53 Tom: Because I had a different experience around it. So I'm curious, what was your experience then? Did you feel a lot of pressure to lose your virginity?

0:17:59 Eli: Yeah so I think I had what is a pretty typical virginity losing experience me and my high school girlfriend planned to have sex and then we We had sex. We were bad at sex for almost 100 % of the time that we had sex, but we kind of learned sex together and through exploring sex. And I, of course, having good parents, talked to them about all of it, right? So my parents knew when I lost my virginity. They knew that I was planning to lose my virginITY. They sort of, I don't want to say they enabled it, but they kind of looked the other way. They were like, well, we're not home on these days. So if you, if that was a day when you wanted to come to that because they didn't want us to do it in a place that was unsafe or, you know, where we could get in trouble because you can get in really serious trouble for having sex in random places, which I know a lot of young people who did who were like, oh, teehee, I've been caught. And they were like. No, you have like a parole officer.

0:18:57 Thomas: God, the amount of fucking places that me and my high school girlfriend had sex in the car is just so stupid. God is so dumb.

0:19:03 Eli: And the interesting thing, I know we've talked about this on the show, but like the thing about having sex in public is like enjoyable, you know? For certain folks, some people are fans, fans, but you can never guarantee that all the parties involved are consenting because of the public nature of it. And you also can't guarantee that all the parties are adults, which as an adult now with a child matters a lot to me. I'll hit you with my car like, oh, you were trying to get laid. Well, now I've plowed into the side of your car and crushed you against this dumpster and they'll have to extricate you.

0:19:26 Thomas: Well, we weren't, so yeah. Wow. Well, it was never any place that anyone would see us, really.

0:19:40 Eli: But like, you never know is the thing.

0:19:40 Thomas: I don't think. Yeah. Someone's checking cars door-to-door you do that oh wow

0:19:44 Eli: Well, that's what I do. I always go around my neighborhood. I check all the cars. Fuckin' in there? Fuckinً in there. They call me the Fuckin´ in there man because of my big bell and my hat that says Fuckin'' in there question mark. And if you'd like to buy a Fuckin'T in there hat, head on over to dearolddads.com. It's $100.

0:19:46 Tom: Just knocking on doors to see if the doors are knocking. Yeah.

0:20:05 Eli: But we Fucked in it. I won't tell you which cast member Fucked it in, but it was Thomas. But yeah, no. No. So like I had what I think is a very healthy experience around it. And still the pressure was insane. I didn't have a particularly good time the first time I had sex because it, there was so much pressure on it and I didn't know what to do. And talking about my partner's pleasure as a high school boy in upstate New York, like that's, that's gay. That's super gay. We're not going to talk about, are you kidding? Trying to please a woman during sex? Gay. Will and grace. Yeah. So there was a lot of that. But yet I just you know, it was it was a it was a weird experience. And then I also think it just set me up for a bunch of the not cash money experiences I would have later in life where people would be like, I'll have sex with you. And I was like, well, I've said yes. And they were like, oh, I'm going to bop you over the head with this Hulk hand. And I was like, Oh, that's not my favorite thing. But we both said, yeah. So there's literally no other thing that happens other than,

0:20:38 Thomas: Really huh well Oh,

0:21:12 Tom: Did

0:21:12 Eli: Than that weird access to my body entirely. So yeah, fucking go Hulk smash. Yes.

0:21:19 Tom: Your dad at all talk about like sex and losing virginity was that like something he talked about with you

0:21:24 Eli: Have I told you guys that I'm going to punch you in the face there?

0:21:29 Thomas: I don't think so.

0:21:30 Eli: Oh, this is, this is a story. So look, I talk a lot about what a great man my dad was, and my dad wasn't a great man in a lot of ways, but they were all home runs. And so, and this is an example of in retrospect where my father could have done better so sixth grade I have my first girlfriend who I'm doing stuff with right and he's like hey um so like are you and uh your girlfriend you know doing anything necking whatever and I was like oh dad I don't want to talk about that and he was like okay tell me or I'll punch you in the face and

0:21:29 Tom: I don't remember

0:21:52 Thomas: Braggy. Yeah.

0:21:52 Tom: In sixth

0:22:06 Thomas: What?

0:22:06 Eli: I was like dad no just private it's my private between me and scoop graphony and he was like cool cool I'm gonna ask you maybe one more time and then I'm going to punch you in the face as hard as I can which is very hard so just keep that in

0:22:19 Thomas: What the fuck?

0:22:20 Tom: Grade I cave in your entire skull

0:22:23 Thomas: Jesus. Yeah.

0:22:23 Eli: Mind and I was like so second base but apparently second base was different for me second base with boobs so I was like yeah second base we're at no the

0:22:29 Tom: Wait a second base not boobs the second base is boobs

0:22:31 Thomas: Oh, man. What are the bases? We need an international

0:22:33 Eli: Kids have a new bases now that are fucking

0:22:36 Tom: Wait a minute wait a moment

0:22:36 Thomas: Congress to agree on the bases.

0:22:37 Eli: This is nuts let me look this up yeah

0:22:39 Tom: No that's impossible there's not a new second

0:22:43 Thomas: I got another question for you. We have so many non -american listeners what do non -baseball playing cultures use for this because like the base system I'm not even a baseball fan I know you guys aren't sportsmen it's absolutely a great system you know the base system for kids it's so dumb but it's perfect it's like well first base second what do the other cultures use uh sock soccer first soccer goal seconds no I don't know what do they use okay

0:22:58 Tom: Base base I

0:23:07 Eli: Yeah it's nuts okay listen to this listen to this this is according to reddit first base kissing thank god second base heavy petting touching over clothes third base touching under clothes hand jobs and oral sex

0:23:08 Tom: Have no yeah oh

0:23:15 Thomas: Yeah we probably have to be okay no that's too quick of a that's too fast yeah that that I'm imagining in my mind the third base being like a mile away from second base makes a weird game first wicket is yeah oh

0:23:28 Eli: Such a fucking upturn yes exactly yeah it is like cricket and then And home run is penetrative sex. But yeah, the kids have fucking ruined the bases. Because for the record, for the youngins listening, first of all, thank you for listening to our Skibidi Ohio podcast. I'm sure you're tuning into it on your glasses? Where you listen to shit? Is that what you do?

0:23:58 Eli: Anyways, on your Zoom, it's cool. But for us old people, first base was French kissing. Kissing with tongue. That was important. Not a base. You didn't get any base. Yeah, this is a bunt. Yeah. Yeah.

0:23:54 Thomas: Wait

0:23:57 Tom: God

0:24:06 Thomas: What was just regular kissing that's you're not even on it that's a wow tom nice

0:24:07 Tom: That doesn't count that's a bunt you just yeah you're yeah

0:24:13 Eli: Second base was touching boobs under the clothes. You couldn't touch boobs over the clothes third base was fingering And hand stuff and then fourth base was sex and oral sex like there was a sloppy system

0:24:28 Thomas: Yeah you You missed out on some base. I feel like, yeah.

0:24:31 Tom: So a couple of things are interesting about that it's like the bass system that we grew up with and you compare that to what you just read like the base system that we grew up with was all about like guys doing stuff to girls right second Second base is touching boobs. Third base is touching her crotch, right? Like, it is the dude doing something to her. That's how I grew up, too. That is the base system. But, like, what you just read back was, here are the things we're doing together. Like, the first thing that you read, the thing that, like the kids have now, like heavy petting. Heavy petting is both ways. Right? Like, oral sex. Oral sex could be both ways That is actually a system that ,like, suggests a mutualness rather than a hard male-to-female directionality that I think is actually more interesting and like more progressive because our system was very very

0:24:52 Thomas: That's baseball. Oh, yeah, I have a new theory that we've never had a coherent base system and no two people have ever agreed on what the bases are. That's my new theory. I don't think we've ever had an idea what was in everyone's mind when we talked about the base system because it actually just doesn't work like any way. I'm realizing now any way you guys describe it's like, well, that skips a whole lot. It's too much. You need more bases, I guess.

0:25:26 Tom: Patriarchal yeah not everything a lot of it's just lead off in between you know right

0:25:43 Eli: Yeah, I think the problem may be and thomas. I don't want to I don't jump all over you here I think the problem may be thinking of sex as an achievement that you run around perhaps

0:25:53 Thomas: You don't run around during sex? You're missing out.

0:25:55 Eli: The uh, perhaps the non-consensual score keeping metaphor is not the best one for sex it's not like the guys standing around the bases are psyched for you to do it

0:26:06 Tom: Yeah that I'll tell you what like it's funny because the other day the boys were watching uh some older uh movies no they were watching they watched 40-year-old virgin and stepbrothers so that was really funny but 40 year old virgin only works if the guy's a virgin that movie doesn't make sense as a comedy there's no tension to it it works when the guy is a virgin because it is socially really undesirable for a guy to maintain his virginity I was a virgin longer than any of my friends I was ever virgin until college and like none of my friends were still virgins that was not something that was cool that was not something you wanted other people

0:26:13 Eli: People have sex oh

0:26:45 Thomas: Wait a minute. And you had to ake cables. Were you the 40-year-old virgin?

0:26:47 Tom: To know that's true there's a lot of pressure as a guy to not be a virgin because it's like kind of shameful to be a virgin after a certain point you know like none of the other friends are everyone's talking about stuff it is looked at like as an achievement as you sort of like round those bases and it creates like a weird weird pressure to constantly be testing the water to see if you can advance with the person that you're with. Because like these outside social pressures are kind of like breathing in your ear that you don't want to be the 19 year old virgin, right? You don't wanna be the guy going to college that's never had sex with anybody because everybody else has already done it. And I've, I know that pressure from having lived it. And like, people do tease you about it. Like people do make fun of you if they find out, It is a real thing. And if the way to avoid that social stigmatism is to make sure that you are trying to advance the ball, so to speak, and the way you do that is to

0:27:37 Eli: 100

0:27:49 Tom: Pressure people. It's a really toxic problem, right? Because then people are feeling pressure to do shit they don't want to do. It is bad.

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0:28:03 Eli: Yes for younger people who might not be experienced this first of all congratulations awesome for you but like the pressure to pressure was tantamount right it was always you gotta be asking you gotta get in there It was that scene from Grease where it's like, hey, tell me more. Tell me more like that was how society was built truly

0:28:22 Thomas: That was our lives. Anyone younger listening? Grease, actual documentary of our school times. Exactly.

0:28:30 Eli: Out of the way we were taught to think about. And now, to be clear, we were one generation away from sometimes you just rape somebody. I don't know what to tell you. You just got to rape people if they don't want to have sex with you. But we were don't rape but that should be the only thing you think about and talk about and if she's not interested in in having sex with you then something's wrong with the relationship and you should ask her what's wrong and you should figure you should fix it so that she wants to have sex with all the movies where someone didn't want to have sex it was just that their partner had not done a thing yet and then the reward that they got was always sex oh

0:29:05 Tom: Yeah yeah there's a lot of that media for sure there's a huge amount of that shit media like I actually broke up with my first girlfriend that I had because she was way more sexually aggressive she was older than I was I was like it's the summer after my senior year I had not dated anybody before she was 21 and a few weeks into dating she wanted to have sex and I was like I don't want to have Sex with this woman I was It's too fast. I wasn't particularly enamored of her. And it was just like I just felt too much pressure. And I was like, I don't want to do this. I don'T want to have sex with this lady. And she thought I was fucking crazy because I'm a fucking 18 year old boy. And the idea is like every 18 yearold boy just always wants to have have sex and the idea that that's not true or that you might not want to have sex with somebody under these circumstances or with the wrong somebody or whatever honestly like that's part of what also feeds back to that narrative of like why female sex predators get away with it and people are like writing shit like ah I wish my teacher had fucked me when I was 13 right yeah

0:30:08 Eli: Dude it's fucking every For every one of those articles, there's some guy in a trucker hat being like, don't see the problem. And I'm like, geez, goodbye

0:30:16 Tom: Because like all of that stuff kind of plays into the same sort of toxic melange and becomes like a whole thing. And I remember like when I pushed back on this girl and was like, yeah, I just, I don't think I really want to. We were doing stuff, like we were fooling around. We'd been dating like five or six weeks. I don'T know, it wasn't long, a handful of weeks. And I was like I just I don' t want to have sex with you yet. And she was like weird and kind of offended by it. Like it was like a deep rejection, I think. She had no idea like how to process that in a way that was like kind or like decent and I was like well we gotta obviously never see each other again and I'll forget your name so but yeah it was it's fucking crazy like it was yeah I went all through high school and then the summer after and then like into my first semester of college without having had sex with anybody and that was very very very unusual for a guy that was very unusual I knew other I knew girls that were virgins but either other guys were and weren't saying it right or weren't you know honest about it and that's a possibility for sure too because again there's a lot of pressure to not be

0:30:57 Eli: Forever. Oh, absolutely. Oh, yeah. A hundred percent.

0:31:25 Thomas: Yeah I would say I benefited from having friends that were only either girls or nerds because we I didn't I didn't really have this in high school much seventh eighth grade were like the worst years of my life and that sucked but also there was no realistic chance anyone was really having sex at that age at my school beyond like maybe one weirdo or something I don't know.

0:31:47 Thomas: So that wasn't really it was it was horrible, but it didn't matter. Yeah. And it was back then. I was like, you're pretty sure they were lying. You know, it was like somebody you didn't know with. Yeah, there's a girl that you don't knows like somebody's fucking cousin or some shit.

0:31:49 Eli: And that was just him by himself. So I didn't even count.

0:31:59 Tom: Those girls up in Niagara Falls I'll tell you what guys they're Canadians

0:32:01 Thomas: Yeah but in high school I since I my friends were all nerds and I guess I mean not that nerds are like always non toxic by any means but I guess it was a group of pretty like non-toxic nerds. It wasn't like we just didn't really talk in that way like we were genuinely just nerds like we'd talk about fucking nerd stuff so I'm just thinking back I didn't have any like particular pressure either way which was nice

0:32:30 Eli: Awesome. I'm so glad.

0:32:31 Tom: I didn't have pressure from my friends I will say like my friends I didn' have any pressure from I didn''t have a lot friends though in high school so it was pretty easy like I really had like one friend in high school and then another literally one other friend in high school so I was very isolated in highschool but I felt like there was a lot of just broader cultural social pressure that absolutely like informed that conversation about like what you're supposed to do and when you're supposed to do it this sort of like manliness quotient of the whole event right like and for sure there was a sort of background radiation of all of that at least in the 90s when I grew up that was pretty significant for boys growing up in the 90s like it was it was like that shit was fucking for real and they again I think it's reflected in the media like I think back to that 40 year old virgin like why is that funny like it's ridiculous because like it's at a certain point like not having lost your virginity now 40 is an outsized example but like not Having Lost Your Virginity literally makes him less of a man than the other people around him because like his identity as a guy is absolutely tied to his success with women and like the manosphere capitalized the current manosphere absolutely capitalizes on those insecurities so like that is like an experience I had in the 90s and I think like if you buy into these idiots who are selling insecurity for profit online they are selling that same shit they've just packaged it

0:33:13 Eli: Oh, a hundred percent? Mm -hmm. Yeah.

0:34:03 Tom: Differently it's more bespoke rather than sort of like network work but it is absolutely still that message for sure

0:34:11 Eli: I mean, look, it's just capitalism applied to that toxic idea, right? It's just people who said, hey, here's this toxic culture around sexual pressure on young men and making them feel less than and making these insane demands of them and their partners, all of which are bad. I can sell this as a solution that I offer because all of them, all the Manosphere guys are offering, right, is I can get you out of the system. I can Get You Laid. I can give you the adoration of women, right? Whatever the case might be, it's always just pretending that they have the solution.

0:34:45 Tom: Yeah and like and I think too that those messages too they they absolutely in my experience they absolutely influence the way that women interact with men around sex too because like my experience had been that women will expect you to advance the situation that is an expectation because that's what they've been told they've been told this is what boys want this is What guys want it's the only thing guys want they will They'll advance. They'll move from, you know, first base, the second to third to, you know, and like if you don't want to advance, at least in my experience, they've been enculturated to think that like, OK, there must be something wrong with me now. Right. And that same doesn't hold true in the reverse. Right. Like if a if a woman's like, yeah, I just don't feel like I want to have sex with you yet. Like that's perfectly cool. No other words should need to be spoken.

0:35:22 Eli: He doesn't like you. Yeah. Yeah, he's just not that into you. Yeah.

0:35:36 Tom: Right but if a guy is like yeah I just like the whole reason is I just I'm not feeling in the moment that is insane and like I think a lot of women don't understand how to manage that rejection because it's not something that they've been taught literally is real we have taught women that it is not real that guys don't always want to have sex all the time with every available opportunity to have six everybody loses in that exchange like everybody loses so bad in that exchange

0:36:00 Eli: A hundred percent. Mm -huh.

0:36:05 Thomas: Wait but I'm always a hundred percent on it yeah how do you how do you yeah I'm just confused

0:36:07 Tom: Yeah thomas is like there's no what there's no possibility not to what's

0:36:08 Eli: That's true. Yeah, no, Thomas doesn't. We lost Thomas. We lost Thomas, damn it. I understand.

0:36:14 Thomas: But I meant it for the love of the game you know say what you want about me and there's many things you could say about me. I'm not doing much for other people to impress other people. You know, I'm not trying to like be anything for other people. I was just in for the love of the game, you know, just form, form a healthy relationship with wanting to have sex because sex is great.

0:36:29 Tom: Happening

0:36:37 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:36:39 Tom: It really like makes it impossible I think this sort of like series of expectations makes it impossible for a lot of guys to decide when they want what they want because what they're supposed to do is respond instead to a set of cultural expectations around when they become men So that idea of like, you know, and actually I'm not sure what I want and how to do it. And so then I think if you start off your sexual journey that way, I fucking hate that word journey so much. I can't believe I said that. But I think if you start of your sexual life that way sort of already just being like why what I do is I'm the assertive one. I'm then it's like fucking what's wrong with me I must be some kind of weirdo you know I must not be manly or I must have something wrong with my libido or whatever It's like no maybe you just aren't feeling it

0:37:38 Eli: Well, and talk about the capitalist solutions, right? If you ever see any ads for testosterone supplementation, that's all it is at this point, right? It's like, have you ever not wanted to have sex? Are you not Thomas Smith? Well, then let's fucking, let's put a salt lick of testosterone into your thigh and see the fuck what happens. Yeah.

0:37:56 Thomas: First off, my thought as, as we're talking, as we're doing this is like, is there any way to try to instill in your kids care about what other people think less? Like, is there any way to do that? Because I'm realizing like, I do think it's an asset of mine in many ways, not in all ways, can be a liability. But you know, there's just so many of these peer pressure. I don't know where that came from. I think because my dad was just so unaffected by anybody's thoughts about anything that I just, just, I guess, like kind of adopted that. I don't, I don't know. Yeah.

0:37:58 Tom: Yeah it's fucked

0:38:31 Eli: I mean, self-confidence is definitely good, right? Trusting that, showing that you, there

0:38:35 Thomas: I don't know if it was that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Maybe. Yeah yeah.

0:38:37 Tom: Up tom's like no reject the premise on that no fucking

0:38:39 Eli: Is a positive way to do it. And I think the positive way is to say that you believe in them and to trust their decisions and to enable them, right. To act like you think they have good ideas. I was talking to a friend the other day about the fact that I hate everything that max watches on youtube because he watches just that Because we do youtube kids but it's just the dumbest fucking boxy the dog and who to the snoot go and then I'm a nana and he just got into watching minecraft streamers and they're just screaming they're just screaming all the time they're just full

0:39:09 Tom: Hate that shit so much man man. It's the worst.

0:39:09 Eli: Voice screaming I hate it and they were like oh just turn it off just tell him he can't watch that and I was like no because the message what you value isn't important to me like the things that you value I don't care about and they aren't worthy of your attention that's a worse message than however much I'm not enjoying the screaming minecrafters who yell at each new kind of tnt they are trying I

0:39:33 Thomas: Yeah I don't know man. Are you sure?

0:39:38 Eli: Know I believe me I know

0:39:40 Tom: I'll say with both of the older boys, I have told them both explicitly, and I don't know if this fucking helps, right?

0:39:45 Eli: I don't love you a

0:39:45 Tom: Because you're swimming so hard upstream against more important cultural messages. The messages from their peers are stronger than the messages from their parents very often, especially for teenagers. The media that they swim and that they consume without knowledge that they're consuming those messages, those are very very powerful too. But I have told both of the kids explicitly, Hey, just so you know, like you get to decide too, that you do or don't want to do something. I know that there's like pressure as a guy to be the one who advances the ball. Like you don't have to do that if you don'T want to at any point you get to be like, yeah, I'm just not in the mood. That's fine for you too.

0:40:25 Tom: Again, like that's not a message I ever received in part. Cause my dad and I literally never talked about sex one time ever or relationships or anything like that not literally one time ever so once I got to a certain age I think my dad was like well I'm gonna respect his privacy and never talk to him about anything he doesn't bring up and yeah and like who brings that shit up

0:40:25 Eli: Hundred percent I don't think they've spoken broken. Is there anything ever again? Right. My

0:40:52 Tom: As a teenager who's like hey I got some quiet I mean Eli would but But like, yeah, yeah.

0:40:55 Eli: Dad, my dad punched me in the face. Or he threatened to punch me. I just said what I had done. So I didn't get punched.

0:41:00 Thomas: Yeah that doesn't sound great

0:41:03 Eli: It doesn't sound great, but it worked pretty awesome. So yeah,

0:41:04 Tom: I I I mean, Eli is very well adapted. Yeah.

0:41:08 Thomas: Yeah and he very much respects the autonomy of his

0:41:09 Eli: I'm a pretty cash money dude. I do. Yeah. I think that other people's privacy is really important. I'm the big privacy advocate. All right, Gentlemen, before we go, somebody threw a beer at Donald Trump today. But don't worry, it was a draft, so he dodged it.

0:41:22 Clip: DEAR OLD DADS

0:41:37 Tom: I like that. That's good. Perfect with this episode, too.

0:41:37 Thomas: Children

0:42:27 Tom: We're not erasing history. We're just erasing history.

0:42:30 Eli: I won't tell you which cast member fucked in it, but it was Thomas. Fingering. And hand stuff.

0:42:35 Thomas: That's baseball