U.S. v. Dunn 5 - Sandwiched Man Grilled By Defense

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:26 Thomas: Gavel in, Gavelinos. It's Thomas. That over there is Lydia. How are you doing?

0:00:30 Lydia: I'm doing good I did I eat a sandwich I ate pizza is pizza a sandwich no I don't think it's a sandwich I don'T KNOW HOW I RUINED IT WOW

0:00:36 Thomas: Get the hell off this podcast, you pizza -eating loser.

0:00:42 Matt: Bunch of deviants.

0:00:43 Thomas: Anyway, I'd like to apologize on behalf of my wife, Matt. How are your doing, Matt?

0:00:47 Matt: Oh, it gets worse. I had falafel and rice. So not carbs, no

0:00:50 Thomas: So am I the only one? Who's taking it seriously, I guess?

0:00:53 Matt: Bread.

0:00:53 Lydia: Well you haven't eaten anything so So.

0:00:56 Thomas: Yeah, that's better.

0:00:57 Matt: You're fasting?

0:00:57 Thomas: I haven't, I've been working so hard on this transcript, I didn't even get to eat. But if I were to eat, it would probably be a sandwich. No, it also wouldn't. I just wanted to be mad. How's it going, everybody?

0:00:58 Matt: All

0:01:08 Lydia: Sandwiches. Yeah, yeah,

0:01:15 Matt: Right. I'm ready for some cross -examination. Can

0:01:18 Thomas: We're going to get some critical. Okay, I was so tempted. Did. There are several places where I really wanted to edit in like a crowd gasp. Just to give you an idea, there's some fun stuff coming to where if there were, there isn't, but if there could have been a crowd gasp and it would have been really funny. Going to get, I mean, bombshell testimony about the sandwich itself. I mean this is something I would like to say. I've I've been on the forefront of this particular, uh, magic sandwich theory. Um, we're, yeah, thank you.

0:01:49 Lydia: You have you have. This is like, like the glove moment for OJ, right? Like this is it

0:01:56 Thomas: Of all the jokes we've made, we somehow haven't made that one. Sir, put that sandwich in your hand. I can't even, I, oh, it doesn't even fit.

0:01:59 Lydia: Doesn't even fit in my hand.

0:02:05 Thomas: He gives, he gives in the sandwich. He's like, oh no, I dropped. I don't even. I can' hold this. There's a, it's doesn't fit.

0:02:12 Lydia: There's no way my rotator cuff won't allow.

0:02:15 Thomas: Ow, ow, ow. Oh, there's no way, Your Honor, that I could even have done this.

0:02:21 Matt: The sub doesn't fit, you must acquit. But we're going to blow this whole hoagie wide open.

0:02:22 Lydia: Must acquit. Exactly. Oh, boy.

0:02:25 Thomas: Stupid. Well, something like this, they should let him.

0:02:30 Lydia: Or not. Or not wide open, Matt. I think that's what we're going to get into.

0:02:33 Matt: That's true. Yes,

0:02:34 Thomas: No spoilers.

0:02:34 Matt: That's true, conflict.

0:02:36 Thomas: Think there should be a court thingy, Matt. You can tell me if this exists. There should be an order. There should not be a core thingy where, you know, it's like permission to treat the witnesses hostile. There is that. Should be like you're on a to permission make this a farce and he should be like yeah I think so I think so yeah

0:02:50 Matt: Can we just all see what's going on here?

0:02:51 Thomas: Like you still it's still it still counts but like this is silly so I want to do some bits like we should get to permission to do bits basically

0:02:51 Lydia: Mistaken identities. Wrong doors. Yeah. Permission to roast the witness.

0:03:01 Matt: I mean, they should know that eventually Thomas Smith is going to end up reading this, so let's give him something to work with here.

0:03:07 Thomas: If the sandwich fits oh god so dumb oh boy although I guess the the equivalent of that would be be like you try to do like there's something in the sandwich he's allergic to like done you know oh hand would have turned red if I'd held that sandwich I can't yeah oh so fun well we are moving on to the I guess this is cross -examination right

0:03:21 Lydia: Out in hives. Yeah.

0:03:31 Matt: That's right, Sabrina Shroff for the defense will be cross -examining V1, Gregory Leromore himself still on the stand from where we left off. And I have some thoughts about this. We can play it out as we go here, but I think maybe some missed opportunities, maybe some interesting diversions, but you know, it's cross. You take it where it goes.

0:03:47 Thomas: A lot of fun stuff to get into on this. So I'm excited. We're going to take our first break, avoid uh, the ads and also get the full court audio. I think when I'm done, I'm I'll make it one big thing. Like once we're done with recording all of it, I will make the trial, like one big, who knows it'll be eight hour file. I don't know what OB.

0:04:05 Lydia: People could burn it onto a CD and like play it in their car.

0:04:07 Thomas: Why is that? I don't know why that's what you thought of, but sure.

0:04:12 Lydia: Bring back the 2000s.

0:04:14 Thomas: What does that have to do with this? I think people

0:04:14 Lydia: I don't know. It's just what how I would want to listen to it.

0:04:18 Matt: Burning cities.

0:04:19 Thomas: Could bring it to court and like play it for, for their local judge, you know?

0:04:23 Lydia: You know what? What they could do is like Showtime in New York, right? Get on the subway. You put this on a boombox. You say Showtime as you're walking through the subway car. And it's just this. It's just this that's

0:04:33 Matt: Do it as karaoke.

0:04:33 Thomas: So all of that, yeah. Karaoke. I'm going to sing this. And then he's like, do do it all of this nonsense is at patreon.com/gavelpod we'll say I don't know uh support the show get the get the goodies and uh take a break and get to it all right matt any last words before we eat the sandwich all

0:04:39 Matt: Just do the lines.

0:04:46 Lydia: The website yeah

0:05:02 Matt: No, I think we'll jump in. I'm going to explain a few things as we go here, but I I think this is the first part is certainly going to explain itself. So let's get into Sabrina Shroff and Greg Larmore.

0:05:11 Thomas: The the odd cup I want them to get together after this maybe that's just the me speaking

0:05:14 Lydia: You're shipping them yeah shroff more

0:05:23 Thomas: Yeah so shrap mark of you you okay here we go that

0:05:25 Matt: Theories.

0:05:27 Clip: Honor, we are now back on the record. Yes, please retrieve the agent, and we will begin with the cross -examination.

0:05:31 Thomas: Crosstalk is in the transcript yeah

0:05:34 Clip: So you can come on up and get ready. Welcome back, agent. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Just a reminder, you are still under oath. Once you are settled, counsel may proceed. Thank you Your Honor. Good morning, Officer Larimore. Don't look at the clocks in this courtroom to try to figure out what time it is. You will be confounded. Not a single one is correct, I bet. Thank you! Actually, that one is as accurate as I've ever seen. Okay, sorry, I saw you look over there. I did. I was trying to find the time. It is, in fact, still morning, though. Okay. You may proceed.

0:05:42 Lydia: Thanking yourself okay wait can we just stop please before we proceed because this is the best thing ever it's just some like clock information we I feel like from trial, we've gotten so much information about what it's like to be in this courtroom.

0:06:05 Matt: Such a great nugget. Yeah. In the courtroom.

0:06:15 Thomas: What nothing in any courtroom works like that's what that's my main takeaway

0:06:19 Lydia: But I appreciate that the judge wants to make sure it's on record, that nothing in this courtroom works. The AC doesn't work. The clocks don't work, yeah.

0:06:23 Thomas: Yeah I've told the clocksman so many times the official court timekeeper yeah

0:06:33 Matt: Kinds of farce opportunities when you've got every clock in the courtroom is different. All kinds of fun misunderstandings.

0:06:38 Lydia: Also, you know, this like little moment, though, that one is as accurate as I've ever seen. Like just really appreciate you know his commitment to truth and justice also plays out in his clock evaluation abilities yeah

0:06:43 Thomas: He's like wow amazing Oh, boy.

0:06:43 Matt: I love that. Such great non sequitur too when it's like she's starting off her cross and the judge is like stop looking at the quack don't bother I just we have no idea what's going on because we're not watching a video yeah

0:06:58 Thomas: It occurred to me I should have had you say like, good morning. I think that's that could have been what it was. That would actually like emphasize what was happening.

0:07:05 Lydia: Probably better direction yeah is

0:07:08 Thomas: That's OK. Okay. The way Lydia played it was like, I'm the biggest idiot in the world. I don't think that's how you would do it with a judge. I think you would have been like, oh, judge, you're so funny. Oh my God. Classic. That's classic judge this guy. Wait, do we know this? I forget the judge's name. I feel like we knew the judge's names so much with the Trump trial.

0:07:04 Matt: That might have been it I

0:07:29 Thomas: Yeah.

0:07:28 Matt: Have forgotten already um oh

0:07:30 Thomas: That is interesting. Judge, that's a nickel bomb right there. Nickel slam on the court clocks.

0:07:34 Lydia: Bomb

0:07:30 Matt: It's nichols judge nichols I knew that your nickel back oh sorry judge that's too much that's a bridge too far

0:07:40 Thomas: You're in contempt no one compared okay

0:07:44 Lydia: Courtroom

0:07:44 Clip: I'm going to start where the government stopped, okay? I'm gonna ask for government's exhibit 1 ,000, if I may. Could you continue to look, please? 4 ,000? I think 1 ,00 is a still photo or overhead. We're going to do 4 ,00? And if you could stop there. Did you recognize that sandwich? It looks like a Subway sandwich. And that's the Subway sandwitch that was thrown at you. I would assume so. I don't know. You don't know? I did not go back to collect the sandwich. No, ma 'am. You watched this video with the prosecutor. Yes, ma'm. How many times? I think I've seen this at least twice with the prosecutor and did they review the actual video with you? Yes, ma' am. They stopped and played it, correct? Yes, ma' am. They asked you questions about it? Yes, ma' am. They told you I would ask you questions about it? Yes, ma' am. And at no point did you say that's not the sandwich, right? I believe that's the sandwich. I don't have any way to verify. I would assume so, yes, ma 'am. Thank you.

0:08:39 Clip: Could we please finish playing that exhibit? Is it fair to say, how should I address you? CBP Officer Larimore, or what should I call you? Typically, Agent Larimore is fine. Bless you. So, Agent Lorimore, just to state the obvious, on August 10th, you were not dressed in a suit, correct?

0:08:39 Thomas: Thank you

0:08:55 Clip: No, ma'am, I was not. You

0:08:52 Lydia: Is chaos oh

0:08:54 Thomas: They don't portray this in the movies you know we get the real real stuff

0:09:01 Lydia: My god I

0:09:01 Matt: There is no sneeze in the transcript so that was improv but

0:09:02 Thomas: So it might have been somebody in the gallery huh yeah ah

0:09:05 Matt: That's That's true.

0:09:06 Lydia: The only other thing is like like she's saying bless you for saying that she doesn't have to say like the whole title which is crazy

0:09:10 Thomas: Bless you no there's no way that's it There's no way he said, call me Agent Laymore. And she's like, bless, bless your heart.

0:09:14 Matt: Peace

0:09:17 Lydia: Prayer hands bless you

0:09:17 Matt: Be upon you.

0:09:21 Thomas: Stupid. Oh, man. Okay.

0:09:28 Clip: You were dressed in full, is it called military uniform? Rough duty uniform is what it's called. Say it again? Rough duty uniform. Yes, ma'am that consists of like a thick long sleeve shirt right it's a buttoned up uniform shirt similar to I guess not really similar to fatigues the pants have edu pockets but Yes, ma'am. So

0:09:40 Thomas: Sounds hot. She's asking him what he's wearing right now. We're making Shroffmore happen. Or Shroffe, Shroffer. What is it? Shrofmore. Yeah. Shroftmore is happening.

0:09:53 Lydia: My shroff more mm -hmm yeah

0:09:56 Matt: I was going to a rough -duty uniform sounds like something that you might wear to a gay club. I wish he was standing right outside so that that was extra funny.

0:10:02 Thomas: We're going to learn the extent to which he knew about the gay clubs. So we will learn that in this one.

0:10:07 Clip: It's long sleeved correct so your arms are covered right yes maam on your chest you have a vest correct yes ma'm it's bulletproof vest right yes ma's then you have long pants so your legs are covered correct Yes, ma'am. You have shoes on, right? Yes, Ma 'am You had a hat on, right?

0:10:24 Thomas: I had to say yes, ma 'am, 700 times.

0:10:26 Clip: Yes, MA'AM You had belt on? Yes, M'AM You had gun? Yes, m 'am How many guns? Just one. Other than that gun, did you have anything else? I have a collapsible steel baton. Say that again? It's called a collapsable steel batone. It's a less lethal use of force instrument.

0:10:40 Lydia: This is like totally a romance

0:10:42 Clip: It's the baton that you can hit people with. You can hit, yes. You had

0:10:42 Lydia: Novel

0:10:46 Thomas: I guess what you're saying is, is that a baton in your pocket or are you just happy?

0:10:50 Lydia: This is so this is such a it's so smutty it's

0:10:54 Thomas: That baton, you said it's collapsible. So it's not the full size right now that it could be. Is that what you'RE saying?

0:10:59 Lydia: What can you hit with it, sir?

0:11:01 Matt: Would you care to demonstrate?

0:11:03 Clip: Had all of that gear on August 10th, correct? Yes, ma'am. The only part of you that was not covered with any piece of clothing was your face, correct? That is correct.

0:11:11 Thomas: She's like, too bad.

0:11:12 Clip: Okay. And Mr. Dunn is wearing a pair of shorts, correct. Yes, ma 'am. And obviously the video shows he's wearing a pink shirt, right? Yes, madam. And he has nothing in his hand when you see him, correct Just the sandwich. Yes, man.

0:11:14 Lydia: Dang, that's

0:11:25 Thomas: There's nothing in his hands. Just

0:11:27 Clip: Right.

0:11:28 Thomas: The sandwich.

0:11:28 Clip: I'm sorry.

0:11:28 Lydia: A sandwich.

0:11:28 Clip: Let me correct that. Is

0:11:28 Thomas: I love how close that is to just the facts man like for summer like just the sandwich oh boy

0:11:34 Matt: Just this edge.

0:11:38 Clip: Is there any point when you see him without the sandwich in his hands? Only after he threw the sandwich at me. Okay. So before he throws a sandwich at you, you see nothing but a sandwich in his hand, correct?

0:11:44 Thomas: The whole sandwich nothing but

0:11:50 Clip: That is correct. Yes, ma 'am.

0:11:50 Thomas: The sandwich so help you got

0:11:51 Clip: And you see that his shirt is open, correct. He is wearing an open sort of polo shirt, right? Yes, Ma 'am You

0:11:58 Lydia: Sorry, pause. You can't have an open polo shirt. Like, no, no. No, there's no. You could open the collar.

0:12:03 Thomas: Well I kinda was it does it have a couple of buttons and then that they're yeah

0:12:09 Lydia: She. She sorry. The next line that she says, I don't want to get ahead. You can see his bare chest. You are not wearing a polo shirt then. So it's

0:12:15 Matt: That's true categorically

0:12:16 Thomas: What was he wearing I think I forgot was he bearing a button up then like an actual she

0:12:17 Matt: I I agree we

0:12:20 Lydia: Like an open button up and underneath is the pink shirt or the button up was pink. I'm not sure which way, but I know if I was a juror, I would be like, I'm I t think this is accurate.

0:12:25 Thomas: Needs to get her fucking facts straight great man yeah missed opportunity here I don't know

0:12:35 Clip: Can see his bare chest, correct Yes ,ma 'am You're not worried there's anything under his shirt ,right? Nothing visible I'm still only talking now about August 10th ,right. On August 10 of 2025, by that time, how long had you been in the district? We got to the district that night about 5 p .m. and started our patrols around, I would say, 7, probably closer to 8 p .M. Maybe that was an inartful question. My question really was, was that the first time you were in Washington, D .C., or are you now stationed in D .c.? I'm stationed in DC on a permanent basis. I report to and work from the Ronald Reagan building here in DC. So you moved from whatever original state you lived in, and you moved as a CBP officer to DC, correct? Correct? That is correct. Yes, ma 'am. And on August 10th, you said that you were standing guard, right? Is that the words you used? I don't believe so. No, ma'm. According to you, what were you doing on August10th? We were supporting the Metropolitan Transit Authority with high visibility crime prevention. You're going to have to speak a lot slower for me. I'm sorry. Okay. Thank you. We

0:13:38 Lydia: Smutty.

0:13:38 Clip: Were support the Metropolitan Transit Authority with supporting the executive order of Make D .C. Safe and Beautiful. Our primary My primary purpose that night was for high -visibility crime prevention and enforcement, if necessary. When Mr. Dunn approached you and asked you the question... Yes, ma 'am. Do you recall you said you were there to make America great again, as opposed to saying you were here to keep D .C. safe, or are you pretty sure what you said? No, ma'm. I'm exactly certain I said I was there to D. C. safe and beautiful again. And when you said that to him, you were literally quoting the title of the executive order, correct? That is correct, yes, maam. And as a CBP officer, you were aware of the executive orders that were coming down, correct? Yes, ma 'am. And you were unaware of another executive order that was going to come down later that night, correct ? Not to my recollection, no, maam. Had you not heard of the crime emergency order that was coming from the White House? I don't recall if I had or not at that point, no ma' am. I'm sorry? I don' t recall at that time in the night if I have any knowledge of it. Okay. Had you actually read the Make D .C. Safe and... Is it green again or safe again? Safe and beautiful. Safe

0:13:40 Thomas: Slow down what's your dumb

0:14:46 Clip: And Beautiful. Yes, ma 'am. Had you read the actual executive order? I don't know if I had that night or not. No, ma'm. Were your actions that night not directed by the executive order. We were directed to support the Metropolitan Transit Authority and other federal agencies in the city. Right, you keep saying that. My question really was whether or not you had read the executive order that directed how you helped the Metropolitan Police. Do you recall, sitting here today, if the executive border limits you to federal facilities? I don't recall that, no ma 'am. How about federal areas? I don' t recall that either. How about territories controlled by federal agencies? I don''t recall. May I have a second, Your Honor? Your Honor, let me show you what I'm going to, just for you, mark as defense exhibit one. Is it one or eight?

0:14:46 Thomas: Thing stupid it's

0:14:48 Matt: Should

0:15:32 Thomas: Just for you don't show this to anyone else oh

0:15:33 Clip: One. One. May I approach, Your Honor? You may, thank you. Do you have a copy for me? I do not, but I think I can get one in just a moment. Do you recognize that document at all? It appears to be a copy of the executive order, yes, ma 'am. Your Honor. Your Honor., we move the document into evidence. The government objects, Your Honour. Let's get on the phone. It's marked as a government exhibit. Bit it doesn't matter let's get on the phone let's

0:15:53 Thomas: It's the phone oh

0:15:56 Matt: Talk about this for a second before they get on the phone yeah this is interesting this is an interesting thing that's happening here um

0:15:57 Thomas: This is so funny really I it was just the my lawyer guy being a dingus we'll see okay

0:16:07 Lydia: Dingus Perrin. Yeah, that's his name.

0:16:09 Matt: The uh she is going down a line of inquiry here she's clearly trying to suggest it's kind of what's coming out here that he's not actually doing his job at the time that sean dunn throws And it is interesting. She could have gone down this line a little more. I'm not saying she should have, but she could have, and I would have considered it. Am looking at the Making the District of Columbia Safe and Beautiful Executive Order of March 28, 2025. This is actually now going into the record of this case. It establishes the Make DC Safe and beautiful Task Force, which is the thing that he is technically on at this time. And in fact, I am going to send you guys the website so you can see how you can join. It is still apparently something you can join and be part of. Yeah, let's sign up.

0:16:45 Lydia: We can join. My gosh.

0:16:48 Matt: Needs you. Check out this slick website.

0:16:50 Lydia: What?

0:16:46 Thomas: Are kidding I don'T I DON'T want your sandwich thrown at me me kidding me it's dangerous join

0:16:52 Lydia: Apply now. Yeah, it is dangerous. Join the agency of your dreams.

0:16:57 Matt: Yeah. Like all the federal agents, all the stars are here. FPS, HSI, DEA.

0:17:00 Thomas: The agency it really says that oh

0:17:03 Lydia: It literally says join the agency of your dream.

0:17:04 Matt: You got to see this thing. It's quite a, it's a flashy website.

0:17:07 Matt: I'm going to actually apply. I click the apply button.

0:17:04 Thomas: Come on whoa what the fuck was that what was that

0:17:10 Matt: That was the little noise that came up when I clicked apply. It had like a little clinky noise.

0:17:10 Thomas: Noise oh my god we got some flash media going on air

0:17:16 Matt: So actually when you click through to apply now, there's like every kind of federal agent you can imagine like there's air interdiction agent you're

0:17:22 Thomas: Interdiction like

0:17:22 Lydia: Is. Now. What's air interdiction?

0:17:23 Matt: Gonna be like flying over dc like interdicting drug planes or I don't know but uh yeah so we got police officers for the national park service we got criminal investigators for atfe we got cbp everybody's here um is a river in dc there's definitely a river so there's some ponds maybe yeah um so weird. But this I don't know.

0:17:26 Thomas: Midair huh yeah

0:17:36 Lydia: My OK. Marine interdiction agent. There's a river. OK. So it's via river. Regional

0:17:47 Matt: And there's, okay.

0:17:48 Lydia: Training program manager.

0:17:48 Matt: So point she's going to be making here is that, and we talked about this, I think, at the beginning, this task force did change gears right after the Dunn thing, whether it was coincidental or not. But I think it was almost that night that there was a second executive order about DC, which changed over to not just making the district safe and beautiful, but then to, Declaring a crime emergency in the District of Columbia. That is a very very different tech.

0:18:09 Matt: But the interesting thing here is that I was looking at the actual task of the task force, the thing that's being told that it should do. And this, again, is an executive order, which just sets the policy and sort of is a memo to everybody. The things that the taskforce is authorized to do, she has an argument here, and she doesn't make it in her closing. I went back and checked the closing, but she has argument she could make.

0:18:29 Lydia: Spoiler alert.

0:18:30 Matt: Well, I'm just going to cut this off just so we're clear, because it's important to connect all this. She has an argument here that she could make that he wasn't actually, or that the orders were not within the scope of this executive order, because I don't think they were.

0:18:40 Thomas: Feel like that's what she's getting at though isn't she okay

0:18:43 Matt: That's what she's getting at, yeah. But she doesn't end up arguing it to the jury. She is kind of suggesting it. And there's also this kind of in -between thing, because as the judge, well, after the sidebar here. But I just want to point out that the actual thing the DC task force, he kept saying about high visibility, that's not in the language here. See if that's in the other one, just in case. It's Just not. Okay. So the things that it can do include top of the list, of course, maximum enforcement of federal immigration law, which is what Sean Dunn was concerned that he was there for. And again, he's just testified he's in a CBP uniform, monitoring DC's sanctuary city status and compliance of enforcement, providing assistance to facilitate the forensic crime laboratory to make sure that's working well. Lots of other stuff. Just basically, there's something even Even one of the line items is fare evasion to help the transit police. Fare evasion, very important for national security.

0:19:30 Thomas: This is big stuff right

0:19:32 Matt: Yeah, so she's going to be getting into, and they're going to have a sidebar now about this, but she's trying to try to take him through what he was actually doing and whether his presence in this intersection at 14th and U is within the scope of the order as he understands it. So it's interesting.

0:19:44 Thomas: But I mean also the sidebar is the other lawyer doesn't know what the fuck's happening

0:19:48 Matt: Yes, right. I just wanted to set up what the issue was that they're supposed to be doing a side bar. So yeah, yeah,

0:19:52 Lydia: You press play, I just I have to say that it's like so dorky that when Larimore was asked, you know, what are you doing here? He said, I'm here to make D safe and beautiful again. Like, it's just so dorky.

0:20:02 Matt: Man. Yeah.

0:20:04 Lydia: It just has really bothered me. Like I can't believe he actually said that. Anyway.

0:20:06 Matt: I know, me too.

0:20:05 Thomas: And then he says it 45 times yeah

0:20:11 Matt: He's a good soldier.

0:20:13 Clip: Get on the phone I said oh I'm sorry okay it's an executive order that was by its terms promulgated on august 11th 2025 the day after this happened the agent testified that he hadn't read it at the time or he doesn't remember having read it at the time that the incident happened I don't think it's at all relevant to either his state of mind or to what happened the day before I mean, I'm looking at the last page of this document. It's dated March of 2025. Let me ask this. I think the government is confused. Perhaps I'm look at the wrong exhibit.

0:20:26 Matt: That's the wrong order. Perhaps.

0:20:49 Clip: This is GE -6002 at the bottom. Let ask the defendant's side. How is this relevant? That's the executive order that guides him. He's testified that's what he was doing. I want to show that he is acting outside of the perimeter of the executive ordered. And that is relevant to what issue in dispute here in the case? What issue does that go to? To official duty okay so in your view he was acting outside of the performance of his official duties yep what is the government's answer to that I guess I would just start by clarifying I thought this was defense exhibit one I guess this is the executive order that he referred to I don't believe we have a brief indulgence your honor I guess I'd like to see what the witness has I'm happy to get it from the defendant I mean witness and give it to him if he wants. Yeah. I mean, in general, when we start handing things to witnesses, we should be prepared to provide them to the parties. Having said that, if it is, in fact, Government 6002, the government could pull it up because it's its own exhibit, then we could all be on the same page. I think the government is saying they're not trusting me that I gave him the same document. I'm happy to assuage their concerns. It's not a problem, Your Honor. Oh, that's not what I'm saying. I thought I heard Defense Exhibit 1, which is a different executive order. So I was just under the misunderstanding of what it was that was passed to the witness I think if it is the executive order that is government's exhibit 6002 I don't have an objection to that okay very well so long as it's the document we're talking about objection is withdrawn I'd

0:21:22 Matt: We know. Two pages for this. Two pages of transcript.

0:22:21 Thomas: Yeah we paid good money

0:22:23 Matt: Forget it.

0:22:23 Thomas: For those two goddamn pages we're gonna use them yeah

0:22:25 Matt: That is right. We are reading them. That is correct. But, I mean, that could have been a lot shorter. Is right. To

0:22:30 Thomas: This phone more of that back

0:22:36 Clip: Like to say one thing to be crystal clear for the record the document you handed to the witness what are you calling it exhibit wise I could refer to it as the government marked or I could call it Defense Exhibit 1. What is the government's view? It might be better if we use the phone.

0:22:52 Matt: The phones.

0:22:52 Clip: Okay. So part of the reason we have some confusion is the defense had given us copies of their exhibits. I understand that. One of the exhibits they had, which had been marked as Defense Exhibit 1... ...was a later executive order. I get that too. Correct. It may be if the defense is going to mark this, they mark it... I will mark it as Defense exhibit 100. That's fine. Great. Done. Done.

0:22:53 Thomas: On the phone right

0:22:58 Matt: This is funny.

0:23:16 Clip: We are going to call what has been provided to the witness, Defense Exhibit 100. You may proceed. Thank you, Your Honor. Is it fair to say, sir, that you haven't read that executive order at all? Not at the time, no, ma 'am. Can we just... I obviously had dealt with an objection on the phone. I believe you had previously moved for the admission of this exhibit. Do you want to renew that? I apologize, Your Honour, and thank you. Yes, I renew defense request to admit the document as defense exhibit 100? Defense exhibit 100 is admitted. We don't have it on a screen. We're going to do this the old -fashioned way for now, okay? Is it fair to say, sir, that you don't know the contours of that executive order? I've read it since that time, yes ma 'am. On August 10th, 2025, did you know the Contours of the executive order. No ma' am. Did you know if you were permitted by that executive Order to be at 14th and U? Yes, per our legal counsel, we were authorized to to enforce laws along with DC Metro Transit, along with U.S. Park Police under an MOU and also with U.S. Marshal Service under the deputization with U.S. Marshall Service. Yes, ma 'am. Did you understand my question? My question was whether or not on August 10th, 2025, that executive order permitted you to be on 14th and U. No, you asked him if he knew. About the executive order. You asked, did you know if you were permitted by the executive order to be at 14th and U. And he answered the question. Okay. Is it your testimony that your legal counsel reviewed the executive order with you and told you the contours of the executive order? It's the execution of the Executive Order. The Executive Order speaks to the intent, and it's the Execution of the Executive Order with the U .S. Marshals Service, U. S. Park Police, and D. C. Metro PD, and how that Executive Order is executed. So with the deputization by the U.S. Marshal Service with the memorandum of understanding of U .S. Park Police and with our own organic authority. Yes, ma 'am. I was absolutely authorized to be at 14th and U that night. What part of the executive order authorizes you to be at 14TH and U? The deputization of the U. S. Marshal Service. Also, I am an immigration officer. I'm authorized to enforce federal law no matter where I'm at. Okay. That really wasn't my question, sir. My question was whether or not the executive order itself allows you to be deputized to patrol places that are not federal places such as a federal courthouse or the federal FBI building or I don't know a federal Amtrak that was my question I'm not sure I understand the question because there was no restriction on where I am able to be as a federal agent on a normal basis so when you answered Mr. Dunn you didn't say to him I'm here because I'm a federal Agent I'm authorized to be anywhere you said I'm here to make DC safe safe, and beautiful again, correct? That is correct, yes ma 'am. And that is pursuant to that executive order, correct. That is pursuent to the execution of the executive order, yes. Pursuant to that executive order. Sitting here today, you testified that you had not read it on August 10th, 2025, correct? That's correct. And your only direction was from somebody else who had told you that you were deputized, correct We were sworn in and deputize by the US U .S. Marshal Service. Yes, ma 'am. Right. Because somebody else told you that it was okay. You said it was Okay. Correct? I'm not sure I understand the question. It's all right. And you also testified right now on cross that that was part of your inherent authority as a CBP officer anyway. Correct. Part of our organic authority. Yes ma' am. Right. And you did not tell him that it is part of your organic authority to be there. Correct just yes or no. No. Thank you. May I have that document now? You may approach. Oh, I'm sorry. Thank you. Did you want me to ask each time? I'm happy to. No, it's fine.

0:23:51 Matt: You don't get this on Law & Order. I just want to point something out very quickly while we are here because she has a point. I am I'm looking at the executive order again, and I just want to be very clear that the only thing this could possibly fall under in the enumerated list of things that this task force is supposed to be doing is in number eight. And again, I'm just going to be pedantic about this because this is important. And this is the thing, the point she's trying to make. And at the end of the day, he was ordered to go there and he was on duty because those were his orders. And she doesn't actually ask him, were you just following orders? But that's what he was doing. But I just want to point out that the U .S. Marshal Service, first of all, I've not even sure why they're are deputizing him, But I that aside, let eight, deploying a more robust federal law enforcement presence and coordinating with local law enforcement to facilitate the deployment of a more robust local law reinforcement presence as appropriate in areas in or about the District of Columbia, including in such areas as, and then it lists off a whole bunch of federal areas. You've got parks and the National Mall, you've got the George Washington Parkway, you know, just all these other places that are named. And the point she's making is that 14th and U Street is not on the list, right? There's nobody saying that you're supposed to be enforcing law there, which is true. So they are potentially outside Ultravera's, outside the order of this executive order, but it's an incidental point because he was ordered to go there. And, you know, I don't think she could win on that point that he wasn't on duty because as long as he was told to show up and do that, as far as he knows, that's his job and that's what he's doing.

0:28:12 Matt: But But yeah, right.

0:28:12 Thomas: To clarify back to the whole thing the interfering with official duty isn't is important right so she's trying to like maybe you're saying if she could somehow prove like this wasn't part of the his direction then that would maybe make that not matter but yeah

0:28:27 Matt: It's an interesting try and he's, she's right. And it does kind of prove that he hadn't read the order for himself. Like he still isn't really repeating any language that's in the order or pointing a provision of it that says that he can be there, but you know, it'S not like he was getting a haircut or getting a drink at a bar on his own time.

0:28:40 Matt: Right. He was on the job in a uniform. So, uh, but, and then she's also going to make a good argument that Dunn's activities didn't actually do anything to interfere with his ability to do his job. So that's sort of the second part of that, but

0:28:51 Lydia: Heard you respond to something, Matt, while we were listening to the readings when he said, you know, that there is no restriction on where I'm able to be as a federal agent on a normal basis. Sounded where you're like, yeah, not necessarily true. What were you thinking there?

0:29:04 Matt: I mean, it's true. But I mean typically and again, we've seen obviously major exceptions in places like Chicago, Minneapolis and L.A., but typically immigration agents aren't just roaming around, you know, free range immigration agents just looking for people. People. That's, you know, I mean, I guess that's the mentality of like, I'm, you know, as a federal agent, if I see something, then I do something.

0:29:25 Thomas: He's well yeah I guess from his point of view he's like Like, there's no place I'm banned from or something. Like,

0:29:29 Matt: As long as it's public space, I can be there and I can enforce the law. It's true. But that's not really how it's usually done. That's what he was there for. I mean, the primary purpose of the safe and beautiful order was the immigration enforcement because that's their obsession. But yeah, anyway, it's all kind of interesting and technical. And I appreciate that she's getting into this line of questioning. Don't know if it ultimately goes anywhere, but it's interesting to consider how she's doing it. And also just to break down, I think this sort of obviously frivolous case does, as we've talked about before, go to the heart of why these people are here. And again, the fact that you've got somebody in border patrol uniform out in the streets of DC, what are you supposed to think he's doing?

0:30:05 Lydia: Yeah.

0:30:07 Thomas: Asking for a sandwich, I think. Asking him for a sandwitching.

0:30:09 Lydia: Hungry.

0:30:10 Clip: Now, on August 10th, 2025, you saw Mr. Dunn come. Did you see him coming out of the subway shop? That's where I initially saw him, yes, ma 'am. When he came out of the subway shop, he started that initial conversation with you, correct? That is correct, yes ma'am. According to you, by that time, was he already cursing at you? No, ma'am. Okay. He asked you a question. You answered him. And then what happened according to you? The next thing that happened? He asked me another question. He asked, no, what are you doing here? Meaning specifically me. What was I doing there? Right. When he asked you, what are you going to do? Doing here, you understood him to ask you, you, meaning a federal officer, correct? That was my, my assumption was he was talking to me as a border patrol agent. Right. That's because on your uniform itself it says border patrol, right? That's correct. And it says border patrol in that bright kind of neon yellow that you can see at night, right. Clearly law enforcement enforcement designator. Yes, ma'am. Right. So his focus is on what is a federal person doing at 14th and U, correct? That's what you understood. Objection, your honor. Sustained. What was your understanding of who he was talking to? Objection your honor, overruled to me as a federal agent. Thank you. Now

0:31:21 Lydia: Can you break down a little bit like what happening on the objection and those questions right there

0:31:26 Thomas: Well, it's just he can't testify to, like, what other people were thinking.

0:31:29 Matt: Yeah, there's been some of that before on this let me look back on the uh in

0:31:31 Lydia: -huh well because I mean but she says that's what you understood but you think the like point of the matter there is really that like understanding is still based on him making assumptions about what somebody else is thinking And so that's the objection.

0:31:44 Matt: I think they're trying to make sure that it's clearly within the scope of what is in your state of mind and what your official duties are at that point and of course he's not actually out there as a border patrol agent that night

0:31:55 Thomas: His focus is on what is a federal person doing at 14th and U. I guess it's an objection. You can't know, like what his exact, yeah, what Dunn's thing is. She said yeah what was your understanding of who he was talking to well

0:32:04 Matt: But duns yeah yeah in what capacity right it wasn't like what are you greg lairboard doing here it was what are you guys doing here but

0:32:20 Thomas: Actually thinks she kind of snuck that in not I don't know how much it matters but then says overruled and then he answers to me as a federal agent which I think is not like really it should have been like objection you don't know who how he's addressing like don'T know how dunn is thinking of him you know You know, you don't know if Dunn thinks he's a police officer or, you know, pastor, a but like he doesn't, you Know, he could guess, but that's not what you're supposed to do. Right, Matt? So it's like, really, he Could have said, what's your understanding of who he's talking to? And the witness could have said to me, but I think because she kind of suggested it in, he says to me as a federal agent, which I don't Know, again, how much it matters, but it's kind of, it seems like that's what's going on to me.

0:32:58 Matt: That helps him yeah yeah

0:33:14 Lydia: With your first question right

0:33:15 Matt: Yeah but what was your understanding of who he was talking to is an interesting clarification uh but I think it's yeah the difference between his focus is on because you don't know what his focus is on just like re -framing that like you said yeah but I love this stuff I mean obviously this is so important to get the precision of language yeah

0:33:30 Clip: 14th NU, you were cognizant, were you not, that it's a social area in DC, right? I'm not familiar with the area, ma'm. Oh, of course you're not familiar. You said that on direct. But you also said you're a seasoned agent, correct? Yes, ma 'am. You've been an agent for how many? 20 years? 30 years? 23. 23 years. When you are patrolling an area, you want to make sure you know the general layout of the area, right? There were several establishments in the area. Yes, Ma 'am, right. And you were cognizant of them, right Yes, man. You were cognisant that there was bunker, correct. Say that again.

0:34:02 Thomas: I love that being his, like,

0:34:04 Clip: I'm sorry. You

0:34:04 Thomas: He didn't do his homework, you You know, like, oh, there are several establishment. You do that cop talk to like, yeah, that's you're just saying there's like buildings like, yes, as a seasoned agent. I saw there were several places like, OK, all right. So he had no idea that he was in the like, well, we'll say here.

0:34:20 Lydia: He didn't know where he was

0:34:24 Clip: You are cognizance that there were bars around that area, right? Yes, ma 'am. You were cognizant that there were LGBTQ plus bars that were widespread around 14th and U, right. I was not aware. No, ma'm. Were you aware that there were people outside interacting socially, right Can you repeat the question? I couldn't understand. Sure. I'll try a better question. It wasn't a workplace, right, like Judiciary Square. It's not a courthouse, an office building, right It's a social setting. It didn't appear to be at that time of night. No, man. Right. Right. And you were aware, were you not, that CBP was not particularly welcome, right? Fair to say? Objection, Your Honor. Sustained. Well, you were worried that night that people were recording you, right ? No, ma 'am. You were not worried that social media would record your interaction with Mr. Dunn or with other people? No, Ma 'am . Do you recall meeting with the prosecutors and preparing for this testimony here today? Yes, Ma'. Do you recall telling them that you were cognizant that people were recording and you had to watch what you said and how you said it? I was cognizance that I was being recorded, but not worried about it. So you were cognescent that they were recording you, right? Yes, ma 'am. And because you were cognition of that, you were also cognizante of how you interacted with Mr. Dunn, correct? I don't believe it changed my interaction. That wasn't my question. What was your question? My question was, you Were Cognizant That You Were Being Recorded, and so you paid attention to the way you interacted with Mr. Dunn or, for that matter, for the public, correct? I don't know whether being recorded changed the way I interacted with Mr. Nunn. Then why mention it to the prosecutor as a concern? As a concern that we were being recorded? Yes. The concern that were being reported doesn't change the interaction with any person whether you are being recorded or not. Then, why bring up recording at all? I'm sorry? Then, Why bring up Recording at all. Just that we are cognizant of being recorded, that's all. Okay. So you are cognizant of being recorded, but you don't pay any attention to being recorded because you're not worried about being recorded. That's correct. Okay. When Mr. Dunn approached you, you were with how many other CBP officers? There were three others beside myself. All three are in exactly the same uniform, correct? Yes, ma 'am. And they are, all of them have a weapon, correct ? Yes, madam. And just to be extremely clear, Mr. Nunn has no weapon, right? Not to my knowledge, no, ma 'am. And when you see Mr.

0:35:11 Thomas: Love this interaction.

0:36:46 Matt: It gotcha

0:36:46 Clip: Dunn first approach you, and after, as you called it, he starts to escalate, right? What is the first thing you recall him escalating to? The first thing that he did? Yes. Is saying F you to me. Okay. He was cursing, and then at one point he started talking about how federal police were fascists, right. I believe that was part of his yelling, yes, ma'm. Right. And at that time, you had your fellow officers and colleagues right there, correct? That is correct. And you had fellow officers and colleagues across the street, correct? Were you able to talk to each other through some kind of radio talkie or any other contraption that law enforcement has with each other? We had a combined channel, but it wasn't for close. It was just to reach back to the main control.

0:37:24 Lydia: Shroff yeah

0:37:28 Thomas: Yeah, like contraption, you know, Like, yeah. Like the yarn in the cups and any other contraption.

0:37:29 Lydia: Radio talky yeah yeah like like

0:37:37 Matt: That is a little weird that that back and forth because he's clearly saying that they're they're cognizant they're being recorded and that you can't infer that they're not acting differently because of that. I don't know. It's just a weird, I'm not even sure what's going on there.

0:37:48 Lydia: I think like anybody who knows human behavior at all will know that if you are aware that you're being recorded, you will act a little differently. Like you just will. And yeah, think I that is just nonsense from him. I mean, it feels like an outright lie, but it's at the very least completely oblivious to how human beings are, himself included.

0:37:58 Matt: Be more polite as a cop, certainly.

0:38:10 Thomas: Didn't know so is able to have like what like transcript of when he met with the prosecutors prosecutors?

0:38:16 Matt: Was wondering if that was in his direct, maybe, that he mentioned it. I'm just going to go back and look.

0:38:19 Thomas: Don't know. There's several times where she tries to call him out on something by being like, but don't you remember when you had a meeting with prosecutors preparing normally get a hold of that? I guess he's not the defendant. Is that why? Or, well,

0:38:26 Lydia: You prepared. Yeah, huh.

0:38:32 Matt: That be in the grand jury transcript, which she might have in, I don' t know.

0:38:36 Thomas: See, is et because he's nt the defendant? Like because it's U.S.? I don't know, Like, how does that I was just thinking, like, isn't there usually attorney client privilege in terms of whatever that is? But since he's a witness, even though he's like, quote unquote, the victim, I guess it's also like the government that the lawyers are like prosecute. Yeah, I don't know. Is that anything or am I off there?

0:38:55 Matt: Yeah that wouldn't really be I must have come up in the direct testimony I don't remember anything like that that he mentioned that they were being recorded but he's aware they're being recorded in

0:39:03 Thomas: Not from the direct testimony. I mean, she literally says, do you recall meeting with the prosecutors in preparing for this testimony? Do you recall telling them that that you were cognizant that people were recording? Reporting

0:39:13 Matt: Maybe there's some notes from discovery or something that's weird yeah

0:39:18 Lydia: Has to hand over as, you know, like this is the evidence that we are presenting at trial? You know, obviously like witness lists and all those things, but yeah, there additional detail that they have to provide in situation? I think that's kind of what you're getting at, Thomas, right? Like if are conversations with witnesses beforehand, to what extent do those have to be disclosed?

0:39:38 Thomas: Just didn't think any she would know this but it seems there's another place too I think that she pretty clearly somehow knows what he talked about with the prosecutors that's weird huh

0:39:49 Matt: That wouldn't be in your discovery obligations um like that would be work product the meeting notes with with a witness. So I'm not sure. I was puzzled on that too.

0:39:56 Thomas: Telling okay, well, I guess it's a mystery,

0:40:00 Clip: Okay, but you had backup, right? Yes, ma 'am. Anything happened to you, there were at least three officers with you to back you up, right ? Right. There were officers across the Street to back up, correct ? Yes, Ma 'am And along with you, correct me if I'm wrong, okay, on that day, August 10th, before the Subway Sandwich is thrown at you, you were aware that somebody named Dana Henry is there, is that correct? A law enforcement officer? What is the name? I'm sorry. Henry? Detective Henry, yes, ma 'am. She is there. Right? Yes. How about Kendrick Anderson? Is he there? What is his name? Anderson. I'm not sure about Anderson. Okay. Trejo is there? Right? What was the name of the man? CBP Officer Trejo. Is that correct, sir? Yes, ma'm.

0:40:38 Lydia: He really not hear her over and

0:40:40 Clip: Similarly

0:40:40 Lydia: Over? Geez.

0:40:41 Thomas: I think no one can hear anyone actually in this, it's the only thing that makes sense but I didn't really want to like do that because it'd be annoying for the listener so, oh really because you speak quietly.

0:40:44 Lydia: It's so bad.

0:40:49 Matt: Be surprised to learn a lot of my transcripts look like this. Could

0:40:54 Lydia: Because you're talking too fast.

0:40:54 Matt: You repeat that? And a low talker.

0:40:57 Thomas: Like, Hey, Mr. Lawyer, could you get closer to your mic?

0:41:00 Matt: What is that sound? Yeah.

0:41:03 Lydia: Why are there seagulls in the courtroom all of a sudden?

0:41:05 Thomas: They just float above me all the time.

0:41:08 Matt: No, I really, I've been spoiled because most of the courts that I go to have have microphones. When I don't, and I have to raise my voice, you can imagine. Do have some transcripts of some funny, can you repeat yourselves or can you slow down moments.

0:41:18 Thomas: And then you're like, sorry, you were still silent. You're like I feel like I am screaming right now.

0:41:22 Matt: I'm yelling at you.

0:41:24 Thomas: No, I still can't hear you.

0:41:24 Lydia: I'm so uncomfortable by the volume

0:41:26 Thomas: That was no different.

0:41:24 Matt: Let just adjust my gain.

0:41:26 Lydia: Of my voice.

0:41:29 Thomas: Yeah, saved

0:41:30 Lydia: Matt, have you ever like, and this is, you know, not to do with the sandwich trial or anything, but just thinking about transcripts, have You ever like gotten a transcript? And you're like, man, that was like a really good point I made, saved like it, like save that piece of paper, or like, oh, this was a really funny exchange and like saved that piece. I would.

0:41:40 Matt: Hell yeah. Yeah. Oh, no, no. I screenshot a few things. Yeah, a really funny one with judge when I was, I wouldn't be getting into it, but I have to remember the context.

0:41:48 Lydia: Good. Good. Let's get into it. I want to know. You can't tease me with with like little, you know, of fun.

0:41:54 Thomas: It. Are you not allowed to say or oh

0:41:59 Matt: But yeah. No. I'd have to pull it up again because I actually had this. It was actually my banner picture on Twitter for years because I just thought it was so funny. But, yeah, it was something to the effect of the judge basically saying, none this seems to make a lot of sense, Mr. Cameron. And I was like, welcome to the practice of immigration law, basically.

0:42:06 Thomas: I kind of remember that

0:42:18 Matt: Because it was a criminal state judge, right? He didn't really understand.

0:42:18 Lydia: A little zinger. Yeah.

0:42:21 Matt: It was something like that.

0:42:20 Thomas: And then you were arrested and put into jail below the courthouse

0:42:25 Matt: I mean, honestly, it is really fun because I do my own appeals often. And it's fun to go back and read because I don't script things. I outline just for the show. I have things in front of me often when I'm talking, but I don'T write out my closing arguments. And It's really fun to see your closing arguments written out as if it's a transcript and as if It's a script. Always take a lot of pleasure in that, that I'm just speaking in these beautiful, carefully ordered paragraphs because that's just the way my brain works um yeah no it's fun to read your own transcripts sometimes uh not always sometimes it's pretty painful yeah yeah

0:42:51 Thomas: Yeah there'd be a lot of can you edit that out oh shit uh are we live your honor

0:42:59 Matt: Back five hours later and being like there's two minutes I just need two minutes a little behind the curtain there for you folks what

0:43:01 Lydia: My good.

0:43:00 Thomas: Can we expunge something yeah yeah anyway opening statement brought to you by uh yeah cut in for the auto out here yeah

0:43:15 Lydia: Male chimp.

0:43:25 Clip: CBP Officer Trejo. Is that correct, sir? Yes, ma'm. Similarly armed as you, correct? Yes, ma 'am. Then you have somebody named Jonathan Hanson. He's also with you. That's right. And you've all worked together before, or is this the first time you've ever worked with each other? No, we routinely work together at the office. Then youhave Abelino Reyna. He is there with you ,correct? He is not there. He isnot there withyou. He comes in later? No, ma'm. Okay. How about Harvey Perez? He was not there that night. Right. And the other officers that were with you on the other side of the street, do you know their names by any chance? I don't know. I'm sorry? They were FBI? They were FBIs. I apologize if I cut you off, okay? If you keep your voice up, I'm less likely to cut you of.

0:44:07 Clip: Yes, ma 'am. So you have the FBI there too, correct? Yes, Ma 'am All of you have met before you go to 14th and U, right? Briefly, yes, ma'm. When we were at our first location near Capital One was where we first interacted. At Capital One, you leave Capital One because according to you, nothing is happening. At Capital One, correct? There was pedestrian traffic, vehicle traffic, but nothing happening. No crime happening, so you moved to another spot, right? Not that we saw, yes. That's because a major part of what you were trying to do is to see if you could catch some crime, right, there was no action at, what is it called, Anastasia, soyou moved to the next one. We were at Capital One. Anacostia is the park police headquarters. Again,

0:44:07 Lydia: It's so uncomfortable. She called it

0:44:47 Clip: We were there supporting Metro Transit Authority, so wherever they would normally patrol, wherever their, I'm not sure how to phrase it, Wherever their hotspots were is where we were supporting them. They were kind of directing where we would patrol. So we were there in support of them, so we went with them. Okay. But

0:44:47 Lydia: Anastasia. Any idea like what the crime stats are in front of like LGBTQ bars? I can't imagine that that's a hotspot. I know, I'm not from D.C. I don'T live in D.C.I've actually never even even been to D.C. so maybe I'm wrong but I feel like that's kind of bizarre yeah

0:45:19 Matt: Is the nightlife district like that whole I was kind of looking into it before we recorded this way back and like the u street there's like multiple clusters though um like this one happens to be like the lgbtq one but there's like other nightlife stuff around so I'd imagine on a friday saturday night you know it gets rowdy in any city I mean it's maybe one place if you're looking to see somebody acting up it's necessarily because it's a gay club but just because uh it's nightlife good

0:45:34 Lydia: Kind of walking the blocks hmm yeah okay all right fair enough you may continue

0:45:47 Clip: You told the prosecutor you left that area because nothing was happening, correct? That is correct. And when you get to 14th and U, right, you encounter Mr. Dunn the first time, right? We went over this. And he starts to call you names according to you, right ? Yes, ma 'am. And you see that on the video, right.? Yes, madam. He's getting all bent out of shape. He's talking a lot, right?. That's correct. Yes, mam. Ma 'am. And at that point, how close to him are you? There's several different times when we interact, but anywhere from really close to across the street. Okay. And there's a point when he's across the Street, right? Yes, ma' am. So he's, there's, a fair amount of distance between you and him then, right. Yes, man. And as that point even from a distance, there is no interaction between you and him where you tell Mr. Dunn, Hey, take it easy, calm down, go home. Correct? No, No, I never told him to calm down or go home. Okay. You see him on the video, right? And he continues speaking, so to speak, correct? On the video? Yes. Yes, ma 'am. And on August 10th, right ? I'm sorry, say it again. And on Aug. 10th. Not just because it's on the vide. Yes, mam. Okay. So you see there are other people there, right . . . Yes, m 'am . . ." And you never see Mr. Dunn go up to any of the other people and say, Come join me in my conversation with CBP Officer Lairmore, correct ? Not that I recall, no, ma 'am. He never recruits anybody else to come and approach you with him, correct? Not directly that I saw, no ma' am. Nor indirectly, correct. I couldn't speak to his interactions across the street. I couldn' t hear them. You couldn' T hear him, but when you... I' m only asking you about what you can see and what you ca' n hear. If you can' t see something, you can't testify to it, right? Yes, ma'm. When you see him, and according to you, you have your eye on him, correct? Yes, mam. Ma 'am. Okay. When you have your eye on him, never once do you see him go up to anybody else on that street and say, hey, come with me and join in my conversation against CBP officers, correct? Not that I recall, no, ma' am. And in fact, he never, ever comes upon you with anybody else in tow, correct. That's correct. There is a man who is recording what Mr. Dunn is doing, correct, correct? I believe so, yes ma 'am. And you saw that video, right? That's right. And that man is never recruited by Mr. Dunn to come and approach you either, correct? Correct. Now, you've testified several times that what your goal was, was crime, is it crime prevention? High visibility crime prevention. The high visibility part you accomplish by just being visible in your uniform, all of you. Yes ma' am. I'm jumping around a little bit, but is it fair to say that as August 10th progresses, The night progresses. More and more officers join you, right? No, we started and ended with about the same amount. Really? So the number of officers after Mr. Dunn is arrested is the same amount as the number officers before? There's other patrol groups other than ours, so our group remained the same number. Other patrol groups helped us with the arrest and then went back to their patrol duties. So other patrol groups joined you in larger numbers, correct? There were several, yes ma 'am. So the number increases. The federal officers increase, correct? Yes, ma 'am. More presence is shown, right? Yes, madam. You are even more visible now. I would assume so, yes, maam. So the visibility has increased, correct ? Correct. Okay. Now, when Mr. Dunn is, as you put it, getting more and more aggressive, right, on that day, Do you know or are you aware that there is going to be a new President Trump's declaration of a crime emergency in the District of Columbia coming in two hours? I did not know that. No, ma 'am. Nobody has informed you, your legal counsel didn't inform you, that the emergency was going to come in at midnight that night? No, Ma 'am, not to my knowledge. And when Mr. Dunn is at that spot where he's somewhat away from you, right, you don't talk to him and in any way tell him to leave the area, correct? Correct? I believe I wished him to have a good night and that was the extent of my interaction with him. Right, but you know when somebody says have a good night, you can say it sarcastically, correct? Go ahead, have a good night whatever, right? That's one way to say it. That's the

0:49:58 Clip: Intent, yes ma 'am, to de -escalate the situation which could... Sir, if you could just listen to my question. Yes ma' am. My question to you was, would you agree with me that you can be flippant and tell somebody have a night whatever and move on, correct, right. I'm not sure I understand the context of the question. Okay, I'll try again. You can say, have a good night, in a genuine way that you really want somebody to have a good night. Correct? Yes, ma 'am. And then there's a not so nice way of saying, have good night? Basically, what you're saying is, move along, buddy. Yes, madam. Now, when you are at August 10th, on that same day, you are there to assist, you said, MTP, right? Yes, mam. And in your particular group, there is no MPT officer, right, Oh, yes, ma 'am, there is. When you're standing there, just the three of you, there is an MTP officer standing with you? I'm not sure of how they are separated, but Detective... I'm only asking whether they are physically there. Detective Henry was with us, yes ma' am. According to you, one can see Detective Henry when Mr. Dunn is approaching you the first time? I'd have to look at the video again, but I'm pretty sure that I remember Detective Henry being there with us the entire night. And then there's another officer who was with the FBI agent that night. Okay. And when you are assisting MTP, you You, for some reason, do not have a body -worn camera, correct? No, ma 'am. We were not issued body -sworn camera that night. Well, you are a federal law officer, right? Yes, ma'm. If you wanted a body cam, you could get a bodycam, right. Are you suggesting that if you ask for one, somebody would deny you one? No, Ma 'am, we are not in a typically operational posture. I'm

0:49:58 Matt: Reading good reading typically operational posture I just think that cop talk cop talk is very funny it's high visibility crime thing is the same thing like it's just an expression oh goes on a bit I don't think it it doesn't need to be quite as long as it is but she's establishing obviously again that know how much he would have been visible what the purpose is kind of playing with seeing what they can get with that but then also she's going to be getting into and kind of keep this in mind as hearing the rest of this about whether anything that dunn did was actually interfering with his duties or getting in the way um his ability to do this and it's also interesting that he's saying he's there to support metro transit police but they're nowhere near, as far as I can tell, they're not near a transit station. And the transit detective seems to have wandered off. Out she's not even there. These are all useful points to make on cross.

0:52:13 Lydia: Went to Subway she was hungry

0:52:14 Matt: Yeah, probably. Right there. How can you resist?

0:52:17 Thomas: The sibley sand oh it's

0:52:18 Lydia: She's like oh dang nice crime

0:52:18 Thomas: Still open oh hmm

0:52:21 Matt: Don't think it really goes anywhere. But the other thing too, I had looked up the phrase, because he keeps using this phrase about the high visibility enforcement. And that's not in the executive order. That's not anything that they're being told they have to do, but that is standard cop talk. Is a kind of operation you can do in somewhere that's considered to be a hotspot. It's supposed to be deterrent. I don't know if there's a lot of research on how deterrent it actually is, but I can imagine you're probably less likely.

0:52:28 Lydia: Prevention yeah yeah yes

0:52:35 Thomas: For just being there it should be if you're it's high visibility you should have to dress like a clown or something like it should me like like just making all this noise like one man band And

0:52:50 Lydia: And you can have like your bulletproof vest like over that. That's fine. So like to help designate you clearly. But like I want the red nose. I want the rainbow wig. I Want the big floppy shoes.

0:52:59 Thomas: Something it's you got to be highly, highly visible, not just the normal amount.

0:53:06 Matt: It'd really stick out. Yeah. Again, this is just not anything that I'm seeing, at least within this order. She's also kind of establishing the timing of, were you aware that your duties are about to ratchet up, that you're about to have this new set of orders, which isn't necessarily relevant to anything, but I guess just kind of to get that out there. He is still operating under these protocols, this operational posture. Her.

0:53:28 Lydia: She did a good job on the bit where she asked, you know, as the night night progresses more and more officers join you and he tries to say no because he's just thinking about his own little you know little foursome group or whatever and she's like no when you went to go arrest Dunn there were a ton of officers so are you really saying like that's not more than what you started with when you were standing at 14th and you

0:53:49 Thomas: They're not in our club, though. They're just we're just, we're tight posse.

0:53:51 Lydia: And so I appreciated that because like like on the jury and you're thinking oh you know there's four of them and then it stayed for the rest of the night clearly it didn't um just making sure that like he is also recognizing that yes there were quite a few more than four um they pursued done for an arrest yeah

0:54:11 Matt: Also, I think very importantly, establishing that he is very visible as a federal immigration officer. He's saying that he's there to assist local police. He's there just as transit police. Local police and transit police aren't even on the scene. He's just standing there as an immigration officer, and

0:54:26 Lydia: The folks across the street are all fbi right so it's like are we doing yeah

0:54:29 Matt: So And also, why would a reasonable person not think that they're watching an immigration operation? When they know that this is the major priority of the administration and those are the people that are standing out there as CBP.

0:54:39 Lydia: No one's writing parking tickets that's not happening

0:54:41 Matt: Yeah, which no fair evasion, no, you know, not supporting the forensic laboratory or whatever else is going on here.

0:54:46 Thomas: Really matter, though?

0:54:49 Matt: Kind of.

0:54:50 Thomas: I I do can imagine the people who are maybe not on Dunn's side here. I mean, you could probably just pretty quickly go back to, yeah, but he was clearly a federal agent and you can't throw a sandwich at him. You but is mean this is what we're here for does this muddy the waters on something that kind of matters but

0:55:06 Matt: You know, obviously her client's not going to testify and she knows that. And I think this also allows her to get into, because she's going to want to bring up these arguments later about her client state of mind and clearly establishing that you were standing there they're in a cluster with just immigration agents. There's nobody else around. Maybe Sean Dunn would not have gone up and done this if it was apparently a group of DC police or federal marshals or somebody else that didn't do immigration work. And I think that this is a pretty clever way to kind of allow her to bring out what the person's state of mind might have been at the time that they're confronting him.

0:55:31 Lydia: I think that's fair, too, because, yeah, like if you see police officers standing in a nightlife district, you don't really think much of that. You think like, oh, they're just making sure that things stay under control or maybe maybe they were called in by an owner of one of the bars or something and they're going to go check out what's happening there. Someone's unruly whatever but if it's yeah like people who are literally decked out in immigration gear and there's FBI agents like that's not just a normal you know there's a drunk guy inside that needs to get uh out for the evening and the bar needs some backup right like it's beyond that

0:55:45 Matt: Friday night. Yeah, sure.

0:56:07 Thomas: Does that cut both ways since the thing he specifically is on trial for is interfering with a federal officer right so it does not cut the other way which is like he wouldn't have done it if it wasn't a federal office or it kind of seems like what you're saying

0:56:20 Matt: Yeah and also at the same time, if there people in the jury who might be inclined to agree with Sean Dunn that they don't like them there, you're really bringing it out. And you're using the high visibility thing against him in a way of saying, yeah, you were extremely visible as an immigration agent, weren't you? Isn't that what anybody would have seen? You know, again, you are right. But I think it's also a kind of good strategy to help bring out the state of mind to show this wasn't just a random, yeah.

0:56:42 Thomas: You think it shows she's going more for something like a nullification complication than maybe like actually getting out on that yeah yeah

0:56:47 Matt: Illegal argument yeah yeah

0:56:49 Lydia: That's interesting because like just hearing you talk about that just sort of like like, trying to get the jury to think in a particular way or to, you know, maybe ignite some of their own biases, potentially. I saw some of that earlier in her questioning, too, when she was like, and you moved from whatever state you lived in to be in D.C. to permanently be here, right? I think, like, the choice of the language there is also very evocative.

0:57:09 Matt: From wherever wherever you're from yeah yeah it's true uh remember of course the government's opening argument was you can't just do this to people and they're kind of almost making it sound like it was a random act of violence right or that or not violence but a random active sandwich

0:57:25 Lydia: Yeah, we're still talking about a sandwich, too. It's like, like throwing a sandwich at somebody, buddy like a sandwich like what oh god do

0:57:28 Matt: Very

0:57:33 Clip: I'm not asking about typical. I'm only explaining... I'm asking about August 10th. Only August 10. You were there to assist local police, correct. Yes, Ma'm. Local police has a body -worn camera, correct? I believe so, yes ma 'am. You want to be part of the local police, correct ? Yes ma' am. But you don't have a body worn camera on you ? I do not. Okay. On the video, you see Mr. Dunn leave and then, according to you, when he comes back up to you he is standing very close to you. Correct ? Initially, when he came back up he was running down the street. But then eventually he comes in and is very close, yes mam. According to you , he is literally in your personal space by then, right ? Yes, ma 'am. And when he is in your personal space, where are the other two or three officers that are with you? There's one to my immediate left, and then several behind me looking, making sure there's nothing coming in behind us. Well, you don't know what they're doing, correct? I mean, you only know what you are doing. I know what I am doing, yes, ma'm. If somebody is behind you, they could be texting their girlfriend, for all you know, right? Correct. Officer Larimore, when Mr. Dunn is in you personal space there is one agent behind you. Right? I'd have to look at the video again. I assume so. Okay. Could I ask you this question? When you prepared for trial testimony here, was Government Exhibit 4000 the only video that you looked at? I looked at... There's a shorter version and then a longer version of the same video. Okay, and you looked up the video? You looked at both videos, right? Yes, ma 'am. How many times did you meet with them to prepare? Twice. Twice. And when you were discussing this issue of Mr. Dunn being in your personal space, right... Yes, Ma 'am? You have at least two officers to your left or your right, correct? I would have to, again, look at the picture, but I assume so, yes, ma 'am. And at that point, do they shift at all? They could have. Without watching the video, again I wasn't paying attention to what they were doing. Okay, but is it fair to say, sir, that no matter how close Mr. Dunn is you have backup at that spot, is that right? Yes, ma'm. And between you and Mr. Nunn, you are more equipped with actual equipment than Mr. Gunn, correct. I have more equipment than him, yes ma'm

0:57:51 Thomas: It's what you always dreamed.

0:59:41 Matt: He has more sandwiches here

0:59:42 Thomas: It's like two sandwiches.

0:59:42 Clip: And even when Mr. Dunn is close to you, he's red -faced, right? Yes, ma 'am. And he's yelling, right ? Yes, Ma 'am And the first time he ever gesticulates at you is when he throws the sandwich at you, right Yes ,ma 'am And he throws this sandwich at your chest, correct ? The left side of my chest, yes ma' am On your chest you have a long sleeve shirt, correct? Correct On top of that, a vest, correct Yes ,Ma 'am And it is August, right, it's not winter or anything like that, it is still sort of fall -y, right fall weather? Yes, it's warm. The moment the sandwich hits you or you feel it on your body, right? He takes off, right? Yes ma 'am. And you take off right with him, correct? That's correct. The sandwich, as you see, could we pull that back up? Let the record reflect that we are now looking at government's exhibit 4

0:59:45 Lydia: Hurts

1:00:29 Matt: Go

1:00:30 Clip: ,000.

1:00:30 Matt: Now we're getting into it critical

1:00:32 Thomas: Here we go. This is make sure you're sitting down everybody. First off, um what you're about to here is shadow. I mean, this is, this breaks the whole case wide open.

1:00:33 Matt: Testimony

1:00:36 Lydia: Amazing yeah this is

1:00:51 Thomas: That's the biggest cliffhanger we've ever done on the show.

1:00:56 Lydia: Can't believe you're doing that to everybody. Doing it to me, too.

1:00:59 Thomas: Believe me, I feel bad.

1:01:02 Lydia: You should feel bad.

1:01:03 Thomas: Have no idea what's in store. Oops. To blow the case wide open, as here's the thing. We've got a good news, bad news, good news situation So we are, finally heard it here first We are going to Be the show At a predictable time We're switching We've invented a new method of podcasting that no one's ever thought of I don't know why Yeah, why we're the first people to think of it a little experimental So we'll see but

1:01:20 Lydia: RIP chunk method. Regular release days. I'm hanging on to that trademark for chunk method, though, because I feel like we could still use it at some point, you be some, you here and there potentially. But exactly.

1:01:36 Thomas: No we should still we don't want to lose that we got to defend our intellectual property for sure yeah no no one else can take the chunk system um the show is going to be coming out on Monday nights late so that's like Tuesday day you wake up probably. The good news is regular releases. The bad news is, you got to wait a week to listen to the next one. Although this one, I guess, hasn't started now, but you got to wait a while for the next one. However, we are already done with the next one. So patrons, I'm just going to put it up right away. Why not? Who's going to stop me yep

1:02:09 Lydia: It means that if if you like chunk method, the only opportunity that you're likely to get chunk method is via patreon.com/gavelpod.

1:02:17 Thomas: That's where you can get usb done number six already otherwise yeah wait till uh monday but yeah regular release days for starting in april right basically so So a big cliffhanger, but you know, patrons can hear it right away. Everybody else we'll see on Monday and every Monday on after for the rest of time. Guaranteed.

1:02:34 Lydia: That's a long time.

1:02:35 Thomas: Can quote me. I don't know why you would, like who would want to quote that? Who you could.

1:02:41 Lydia: You could. Don't put that in the show.

1:03:03 Thomas: I'll cut that.

1:03:06 Lydia: No. No, there's

1:03:08 Thomas: To make this a farce and a permission