U.S. v. Dunn 4 - Victim #1

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:27 Thomas: Gavalinos, it's sandwich time. Thomas, that over there is Lydia and a sandwich. How are you doing?

0:00:33 Lydia: Well, in my belly because I just polished off a sandwich.

0:00:36 Thomas: Before we started recording, Lydia says to me, she says, Ooh, I'm eating a sandwich, and I was like, Haha, yeah. And then a second later, she's like, Oh, and it's the sandwich trial. I was just like, I thought that's why you were saying like, Mmm, sandwich.

0:00:48 Lydia: Said, no, I said like, yeah, I sad, I say yay sandwich. I think I said yay sandwich and well, it is.

0:00:56 Thomas: That's not important. The important part of the story is you were celebrating a sandwich just in and of itself, which I love. You were just here celebrating a sandwich and you literally said something like, hmm, sandwich. And I was like, all right. And then there's this delay. And you're like, oh, so that's just how much Lydia is dedicated. We found a subject matter expert in uh lydia smith here sandwich expert and real legal expert matt cameron how you doing man get the fuck out of here you

0:01:12 Lydia: And also the sandwich trail. Yeah, yeah.

0:01:25 Matt: Just had a really dense burrito that I think would make a real weapon. I was just thinking about that.

0:01:29 Lydia: Okay, a A burrito in Boston, you need, is a burrito a sandwich, though?

0:01:31 Thomas: Can't bring a burrito to a sandwich trial it's like the

0:01:35 Lydia: That's the question.

0:01:35 Thomas: Old saying

0:01:37 Matt: Actually a legal question that has come up before. Do you guys know about the Worcester sandwich thing, burrito thing?

0:01:40 Thomas: Weren't we gonna cover that or something we got yeah that

0:01:43 Matt: Probably. I'm sure at some point, yeah.

0:01:43 Thomas: Sounds fun oh man yeah

0:01:45 Matt: Legally, it is not a sandwich necessarily. Necessarily, but

0:01:47 Lydia: You get good burritos in Boston?

0:01:50 Matt: Mean, I think so, but I

0:01:51 Thomas: How would you know though

0:01:53 Matt: Do have Latinos here and getting a good selection of a culture.

0:01:58 Lydia: Well. Fine.

0:02:00 Thomas: No they're just different there's the the it's amazing how different like the mexican food the quote unquote the mexikan food whatever we label that as in different areas like very different depending on where you are but burritos aren't sandwiches sandwiches are sandwiches so we need to talk sandwich trial today what

0:02:01 Lydia: That's an interesting choice.

0:02:16 Matt: That's right. Right, and we're getting to the meat of it. We've got the big star witness.

0:02:21 Lydia: All these vegetarians are getting to the meat of it.

0:02:23 Thomas: We'll we'll sub in don't worry we subbed in a fake meat for us we'll just say yeah getting to the meat well

0:02:23 Matt: That is right.

0:02:27 Lydia: Beyond.

0:02:30 Matt: No substitutions. We've We've got got the star witness himself, Gregory Larmor, victim one, V2. V1, as charged. And going to be finally hearing his account.

0:02:33 Thomas: That'll never not be funny to me oh

0:02:39 Matt: Usually it is not a good time when you're hearing a victim testify in court, but this is about as much fun as you're ever going to have listening to a victim in court.

0:02:45 Thomas: Man so victim one so good that's actually what it is right like they actually say v1 so good uh man good times is

0:02:49 Lydia: Does

0:02:54 Matt: In the charging document.

0:02:56 Lydia: He get like restitution from this? You know, is there like victims advocates? Like, does he get to join that group chat?

0:03:03 Thomas: Tries to testify like behind a screen you know like he's that scared of the sandwich guy

0:03:10 Matt: It's a mustard proof.

0:03:11 Lydia: His voice? Yeah.

0:03:12 Matt: Screen. Yeah. Well,

0:03:15 Thomas: We're gonna hear some testimony I can't wait that's classic uh stuff here good times um as usual um we're not sure how much we'll play for the normies it might be most of it but it might not be but if you're on patreon.com/gavelpod you're gonna get that full recording you to hear the man himself the sandwich is he's horribly disfigured by the sandwich I mean just just barely recognizable, is this victim. It was a real slaughter. You'll get to hear all of it on the Patreon, of course. Right, well, we'll take our break, which you can also avoid at patreon.com/sandwiches. No, it's slash gavel pod, gavel sandwich.

0:03:52 Lydia: Going to ruin all of our web traffic.

0:03:54 Thomas: There goes all our business. patreon.com is the gavelpod, and it after this.

0:04:07 Matt: We left off obviously with opening arguments and we're just going to go straight into the action. Exhibit they're going to introducing, I believe is just a map of the area. So he's going to testify about what he was doing and sort of his role that night. I

0:04:18 Clip: You counsel ready to proceed with the first witness we are your honor the government calls agent greg lamar you may bring in the agent good morning agent please just when When you sit down, make sure your microphone is close. Testing. Perfect. Thank you. You may proceed. Thank you, Your Honor. Good morning. Can you state your name and spell it for the record? My name is Gregory A. Larimore. L -A -I -R -M -O -R E. Where do you work? I work for the United States Border Patrol. How long have you been with the Border Patrol? Just over 23 years. What does Custom and Border Protection do? So I've been an agent 23 years, I've done a lot of different things. Primarily, Border Patrol is responsible for securing the border and points of entry along the southern border, northern border, and coastal borders. What's your current title? I am a division chief. What do you do? Currently, I'm assigned to U .S. Border Patrol headquarters. I'm a division chief with the Strategic Planning Analysis Directorate, and I lead the systems division for United States Border Patrol, so all of our enforcement information systems. What is ATAK? ATAK, otherwise known as ATAC, stands for the Android Team Awareness Kit. It's a blue force tracking tool. It's an application on a cellular device that allows for agents to see each other and also have communications with other agents. It's primarily to prevent any type of blue on blue scenario where agents or officers utilizing ATAC are able to see who else is out there. We pair it with other agencies that are working the same area of operations operations so we are able to see their positions. They are able to see our positions. It assists in operational awareness and officer safety. Is that part of what your division? That's one of the main programs that I'm responsible for, yes. Now,

0:06:04 Matt: I just want to reiterate here how ridiculously overqualified this man is to be standing on the streets of DC D.C., just patrolling. This really goes to the point, this little kind peek into just how much the entire federal government has retooled itself to just going on the streets and doing immigration enforcement. I mean, this is really ridiculous. He's a division chief. He'd been there for 23 years. Means, he knows that this is, and he was following orders. He was out there doing what he was supposed to be doing, but he knows this is just not what he's supposed to be doing. Supposed to in D. C. doing high -level stuff like what he is talking about here.

0:06:31 Clip: Now, you said you are a division chief. I think you also said you're an agent with Border Patrol. Is dat right? Yes, sir. How long have you been considered an agent? An agent since I entered on duty with Border patrol in 2002. You are always an agent. In the Border Patrol, you're always in a law enforcement position no matter where you're at. You're either supervising doing administrative duties but you're always an agent first what does it mean to be an agent with customs and border protection it means a lot of different things primarily it is securing the national border preventing terrorists and terrorist weapons from coming into the united states preventing illegal immigration from coming back into the United States forcing border patrol involvement so have you received training on your investigatory powers as an agent with CBP several times through the Border Patrol Academy primarily and then as we go through our career through supervisory training through legal training primarily refresher training before we go on any significant deployment just reminding us of our authorities organic and then if we're working with another agency what their authorities are and where our responsibilities lie in relation to the other agency what is your authority as an agent with CBP primarily our immigration authority is vested under title 8 immigration nationality act We're also designated to enforce customs, Title 19, and the DEA under Title 18 and Title 21. You mentioned organic authority. What does that mean? Organic authority, as immigration and customs officers or agents, it's our organic authority invested under the Immigration Nationality Act under either 287 and 235. Mostly Title 8 and Title 19 are CBP's organic authorities. What does dat entail as far as maybe crimes that were committed in your presence? Usually its immigration law is primarily what we enforce, but we do have the organic authority under Title 19 to arrest for any felonies or misdemeanors committed in our presence, federal felonys or federal misdemenas. Understood.

0:08:27 Matt: I just wanted to address something because there's something I keep seeing in the media that's just not right about how ICE doesn't have the authority to arrest US citizens. And as he's stating here, they do. I mean, if they see you committing federal crime, if they are watching you transport or sell drugs or to shoot up a post office or something, they can arrest you on the spot. Are Federal Law Enforcement officers. And that's the point he's making here is, and that's how it keeps happening that US citizens are getting arrested is because they believe that they are watching them commit a violation of 18 USC 111, which is what we're here for. So it's trials for, I just wanted to note that because I understand why people are saying that, but it's not really true that ICE doesn't have authority to arrest US citizens or that somehow outside of their jurisdiction.

0:09:04 Clip: Now, I'm going to take you back to August 10, 2025. Were you on duty as a Customs and Border Patrol agent that night? Yes, sir. What was your assignment then? My initial assignment was to come and assess communications because ATAC is one of the programs that we oversee, or I oversee. It was to assess the other agency's ability, what their capabilities were for ATAC. Following that, we, then we proceeded to, we were there in support of the executive order to make D .C. safe and beautiful. We were working with the United States Park Police and the U .S. Marshal Service that night. So it was primarily to support the local law enforcement agencies in their high visibility crime patrol and prevention that night." Was it normal for you to be on duty at that time? No, sir. How did you receive your assignment that night? So after the executive order that weekend, they were requesting some volunteers from basically every agency around. United States Bureau of Patrol, other components of CBP were included. As I said, the deputy chief friend asked for volunteers, and then I was contacted by the acting deputy executive, I can't speak, deputy executive assistant commissioner Blanchard to come and support with ATAC coordination, try to help get an initial assessment on what our assessment and capabilities were like that night. I then called the team that works for me, that runs the ATAC program, and elicited their support to come out that night, give the assessment, and then work the operation that night." Do you know why CBP was a part of this? We're a federal agency. We routinely work with... I'm sorry, there was an objection? I heard something, but it wasn't at all apparent to me. I had an objection, Your Honor, based on relevance. Can you tell me at least the basic nature of the objection? Yes, Your Honour. It was on relevance grounds. Did you want me to elaborate? Overruled. You can continue answering. I'm sorry I cut you off.

0:10:46 Clip: Did

0:10:46 Thomas: Want to say Lydia was actively offended that I overruled her objection. She was like hurt by it.

0:10:50 Lydia: I honestly was. I did not like it at all. I was like, excuse me? You're going to overrule when I'm asking if you want me to elaborate? You could just say, no, thank you. Like, there's a step there, judge. Anyway.

0:11:03 Matt: To women. Come on. Yeah, what are we doing?

0:11:05 Lydia: Exactly

0:11:06 Clip: Did you know why CBP was a part of this that night? We're one of many federal agencies. So the call was to any and all federal agencies to support the District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Department, U .S. Park Police, U -S. Marshals in supporting the executive order that night. Okay. Let's walk through how that night started. Where did you go first? So first we reported to the Reagan building before we, that's where we report to on a daily basis. So we were there to get our uniforms, body armor, equipment we would need for the night, cell phone chargers. The Reagan building. Is that where you're normally based out of? Yes, that is where we reported on a day basis. Sorry, continue. Once we were here, we met up and then we drove over to the United States Park Police Headquarters over off Anacostia Drive. I don't remember the exact address. That's where all the other agencies and Park Police were coordinating all the events. Shut up there. Again, talked to the other agencies about their capabilities for ATAC. We're trying to get a feel for what the situation was. You said we went. Were you with other Customs and Border Protection agents? Yes, sir. My ATAC team. That included Assistant Chief Trejo, Assistant Chief John Hanson, and there was another agent by the name of Matt Bauer. When you got there, what happened when you got to Park Police? At Park Police, there was a lot of different agencies there. So there was lot of initially talk. It was one of the first nights of the operation. Operation so there wasn't a lot of clear direction we were able to make contact with park police and u .s marshals so we got a little more clarity then everybody that was supporting the operation that night was deputized by united states marshal service to expand the authorities that they had to support the operation were you paired up with any other law enforcement agencies yes sir that night we were paired up với dc metro transit fbi was with us united states border patrol the four of us were there and there were a bunch of different agencies around that was The team that was working with us that night was FBI, Border Patrol, and Metro Transit. About how big was the team? About 10 total. What was your understanding about what your role was to be that night? Our role that night Was to support Metropolitan Transit Authority. Just really high visibility, crime prevention, and then responding to anything that happened to happen while we were there. Any violation of the law that Metro Transit was responding to, we were there to support them. And then obviously anything that happen in front of us or around us, again, just making sure that the particular population was safe, Both pedestrian traffic, vehicular traffic, whichever we happen to come across. That specific night, were you specifically out there to enforce the customs and immigration laws? No, sir. Were you even aware of any targets that were out there that would be subject to customs and immigration laws that night? No, Sir. Just

0:13:39 Matt: This is important. Is not there in any capacity to enforce immigration law, but of course he's dressed as a CBP officer. And he and his team from the Reagan building, the main CBP office in DC, the headquarters, are out there on the street basically being traffic cops and just watching the street. And Sean Dunn, of course, believes that he's standing in front of a prominent gay club with little Latinite. Of course he's not even there to do immigration enforcement. But this is the whole danger of having people deputized to go out and do things that just aren't their jobs, which is happening all over the place is now all over the country with these things. You've got this right?

0:14:16 Matt: You got a bunch of creeps without good missions.

0:14:17 Thomas: Is a real mission creep yeah what

0:14:19 Matt: Yeah. I just wanted to point that out because Sean Dunn very reasonably believed they were doing immigration enforcement because it's immigration officers in the streets of DC. What would you think is happening?

0:14:16 Lydia: Yeah and

0:14:21 Thomas: A mission creep yeah right

0:14:31 Lydia: So his so his testimony here is basically saying like my job that night was to go stand here and watch traffic with FBI agents like

0:14:39 Thomas: Go stand I'm to stand right here and it's like the monty python and make sure he doesn't leave the the traffic

0:14:46 Lydia: That's so crazy to me because again like these are these people that are on federal federal payroll. And am I paying FBI agents to watch traffic? Why am I paying to watch CBP officers watch traffic?"

0:14:57 Thomas: Cops yeah yeah

0:14:58 Matt: A CBP division chief from the main headquarters in DC has to come over.

0:15:05 Lydia: Seriously, what's his salary? What exactly?

0:15:07 Matt: It's like, I'm going to look it up while we're talking.

0:15:08 Lydia: It's not like a low -level agent. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Public information.

0:15:12 Matt: But I just really want to underscore that he keeps saying high visibility. The whole purpose is to be seen doing it. That's what they're there air for.

0:15:21 Lydia: Federal traffic laws are there?

0:15:24 Matt: That's DC, so I guess. But I don't know. Everything's weird over there.

0:15:26 Thomas: Dc is always the weird thing yeah that's true yeah no

0:15:27 Lydia: All right. Fair.

0:15:31 Matt: But he's deputized by the U .S. Marshal to enforce traffic law in DC. It's just weird.

0:15:31 Thomas: That's fair

0:15:36 Lydia: That is so weird.

0:15:38 Thomas: It's the it's the honor every officer wants bestowed upon them enforcing traffic law by yeah

0:15:44 Lydia: Up, parking tickets.

0:15:48 Clip: To be clear, what would happen if you encountered a violation? Objection, speculation. Sustained, but I think the question can be rephrased in an appropriate way.

0:16:00 Clip: Was there any situation in which you would have applied the customs of Border Patrol laws? Same objection. Same ruling. Brief indulgence, Your Honor. Sure.

0:16:11 Thomas: By the way when it says brief indulgence there wasn't really a way to communicate that but it they I guess have an off the record like quick comment real quick but the transcript just goes brief indulgence and then it says like off the record and then it goes back so yeah I do what I only say it because kind it it of would otherwise sound like the brief indulgence is just him asking the next question but yeah that's what's happening there just so everyone knows I

0:16:24 Matt: Very brief. Yeah. Right. Yeah that's important.

0:16:34 Clip: What immigration authorities would you apply that night? Same objection, Your Honour. May I try? Yes, Your Honors. What was your understanding that night about what you could do to enforce immigration laws we weren't

0:16:42 Thomas: Love this yeah

0:16:50 Lydia: Like, yeah, just want to pause because I want to ask Matt, okay, how often has this happened for you? And if a judge presents a question, like, does that just basically shut down your, your ability to want the judge, like you're going to object to a judge.

0:17:04 Matt: No, you can object. I mean you can certainly try to object to the question. See how it goes.

0:17:04 Thomas: Can you be like ah that sucked actually judge I'm not uh not really what I was going for at all

0:17:10 Lydia: Try again.

0:17:15 Matt: Objection. Who the hell are you? Yeah.

0:17:17 Thomas: Yeah who is this guy yeah

0:17:20 Matt: Yeah, no, it does happen, especially in immigration court. It happens all the time when a judge gets either particularly interested in something or it feels like there's a line of questioning they really want to get into. Or many times, if time is short, the court knows what they want to hear about, and they'll just jump in. And I don't mind. Sometimes it can feel like they're cutting me off. But obviously, I always prep my clients for this, and I always tell them, judge is God, God speaks, we shut up. That's how it works. And no matter what else you're saying, what else do you want to talk about, this is what the judge wants and this is what we want to tell him.

0:17:30 Thomas: They just want to move it on yeah yeah it seems like with this one it It was like not that or complicated question. And the, contrary to, I would have made a different voice acting choice probably had I known, but it sounds like this guy's kind of a rookie, this lawyer, right?

0:18:01 Matt: Apparently, he's only a couple of years in.

0:18:02 Thomas: And so it sounds it's like probably helping a guy out in something that's not like super important. Like, all right, let me help you get through this. Here's how you would have to ask this.

0:18:10 Matt: Let's move it along here.

0:18:11 Thomas: It's what it came across like to me.

0:18:13 Matt: Questions, was there any situation in which you'd have to apply CBP law? Then what immigration authorities would you apply that night? Neither of those are good questions.

0:18:21 Thomas: Why exactly aren't those good questions?

0:18:23 Matt: The first one is just like, was Was there any situation? I mean, that's just kind of a strange thing in which you would have had to. You ask him to speculate about what possible situations, I guess. And then what immigration authorities would you apply that night is just kind of, you didn't even lay the foundation for that, really. But the second, the court's question is just like, what did you understand that night about what you were doing? That's a much better question, is what did you go into the night thinking you were going to be doing?

0:18:45 Thomas: Right I

0:18:45 Clip: Was your understanding that night about what you could do to enforce immigration laws we weren't there to primarily enforce immigration law however if we encountered any violation of immigration law during the course of the night we were free to enforce integration law as we would normally thank you your honor so this particular team that you were a part of what was the assignment again it was high visibility patrols crime prevention mostly we were afoot But we followed Metro Transit Authority, our assigned officers, to the Capital One Arena area, that metro station there. Me not being very familiar with it, the team the same. We kind of, for lack of a better term, gaggled along with them until we kind of got our wits about us and our area of familiarization. We stayed in teams of four, and then we would patrol on foot two or three blocks in radius around Capital One arena. And just high visibility, crime prevention, pedestrian traffic, vehicular traffic, whichever happened our way. Maybe I should have asked this earlier. What was everyone wearing? I'm sorry, we wore our normal uniform, green

0:19:41 Matt: I love that question.

0:19:41 Lydia: Victim blaming. Victim flaming.

0:19:43 Thomas: Don't know why

0:19:43 Matt: What are we wearing?

0:19:43 Thomas: That's so but should have asked this earlier yeah

0:19:45 Lydia: That's V1. You know, how dare you ask a victim?

0:19:48 Thomas: How re -traumatized this victim yeah what were you wearing was it yeah and was it an apron you know something yeah with the plastic gloves like that yeah sign that said hit me with a sandwich yeah okay

0:19:49 Matt: Going out like that. That.

0:19:53 Lydia: It's so funny. A hairnet. Yeah,

0:19:59 Matt: Armani? I don't know. Yeah.

0:20:08 Clip: What was everyone wearing? I'm sorry, we wore our normal uniform, green law enforcement designators with ballistic armor. Again, law enforcement designers front and back to indicate that we were law enforcement. Was anybody in your group wearing a mask or anything like that? No, sir, not that night. So

0:20:25 Thomas: Didn't have to mask up until we started getting sandwiched that's when we that's why yeah

0:20:29 Lydia: And that's when policy changed yeah yeah

0:20:32 Matt: The world changed.

0:20:34 Clip: What happened after you were at the Capital One Arena area? There wasn't a lot there. Some public interaction, but nothing really. There were some high -crime spots that Metro Transit was aware of around the U Street station, so we collectively went via the metro or to U Street Station and initiated similar type of patrols there. Any other particular reason why you went specifically to that U Street area? No, they had a high rate of crime there. Objection. What is the objection? Just the nature of it. Yes, Your Honor. What's the natureof it? Oh, I'm sorry. Like a word or two. I think the designation attributed to the area is problematic. I don't think there's personal knowledge or any basis that he has. I can rephrase, Your Honour. Sure. Was there any specific target in mind when you went to that area? No, sir. Were you targeting anything specific? No, Sir. What did you personally know about that area before you went there? I had never been to that are before. All right. So when you first got there, what were you all doing? Similar to what we did at Capital One, just get an area of familiarity. Patrolling, again, as a large group. As we became more familiar, just walking around in smaller groups of anywhere from four to six. Can I show the witness government's exhibit 1 ,000, please? Let

0:21:47 Thomas: Uh my in my mind is in the princess bride where he's like Like, how many people are guarding the gate? 50? Double it! And then, you know, it's like just 100 guys just standing in front of the gate, like, just kind of swaying, like.

0:21:58 Lydia: Well I I distinctly remember the the videos that we've covered before where when they first went into dc and they just be walking around like through crosswalks and stuff and it's like what are you doing like why are you there

0:22:10 Thomas: What is it you would say you do here?

0:22:12 Lydia: Yeah, exactly.

0:22:12 Matt: Yeah, exactly.

0:22:13 Thomas: A little

0:22:14 Clip: Let me just mention to the jury, this is the first time a potential exhibit has come up. There's a process we follow. Before the particular exhibit is admitted into evidence, you won't see it on your screen. And each of you has the ability to watch things on a screen in front of you. You can push it out when it pops up. I mean, when we use the screens. Until then, until it's admitted, the witness will see the exhibit. I'll see the exhibit. There will be a colloquy about the exhibit that will hopefully not identify it too much.

0:22:22 Thomas: Inside courtroom stuff here. This is the kind of shit you can't get anywhere else.

0:22:45 Clip: Then, if I admit the exhibit, I will say, the exhibit may be published to the jury. At that time, you will see it. There'll be a few questions before you're able to see the exhibit. You may proceed. Thank

0:22:46 Matt: That's right, yeah.

0:22:58 Thomas: Me? Yeah, sure.

0:22:57 Lydia: I ask a question? So I, felt like we always hear about how technologically basic courtrooms are. This feels, I don't know, kind of like high tech. This was not my experience when I served on a jury and there were there were video exhibits and stuff that we watched there.

0:23:07 Thomas: It's high tech. Yeah. But it wasn't a high -stakes sandwich trial. That's why.

0:23:17 Matt: That sounds

0:23:18 Lydia: There. But I mean, it was basically just a screen that they projected the video onto. We all watched it from the jury box.

0:23:24 Thomas: Had to watch a video? Oh, sweet.

0:23:26 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah, I got to watch a video.

0:23:27 Thomas: It's like in elementary school and

0:23:28 Lydia: Exactly. They wheeled it out. Yep. Reading Rainbow. I don't know, I was kind of impressed by this. I was like, a little video thing pops up and then, yeah, it just shows on all of your screen. I don' t know. I thought it it was cool so mm

0:23:28 Thomas: They wheel in. Yeah. Hi, tech.

0:23:40 Matt: They have personal tablets or something. I haven't heard of that, but that's a really good idea. And of course, the explanation about publishing to the jury, just for people who aren't familiar, the idea that you can have an exhibit, but it's by the court and the debates have been had about whether or not it goes in. If the jury actually gets to see it, that's what's called publishing it. And in this case, they're literally going to put it up on a screen right in front of the person. Pretty good.

0:23:58 Thomas: Pretty cool.

0:23:59 Lydia: So if that the court does not admit the exhibit but the jury has heard information related to it right right

0:24:05 Thomas: It actually says the paragraph, it going to say as little as possible to make sure it's not, like. Do we already get to that?

0:24:09 Lydia: It doesn't end up being prejudicial

0:24:11 Thomas: Or it doesn't help identify it, basically.

0:24:12 Lydia: Like if it's not except not accepted right okay okay

0:24:15 Matt: There's going to be a sidebar for sure if you're going to have a real issue with it. But of course, they've already stipulated to the exhibits they're going be showing them, almost all of them.

0:24:21 Thomas: Most of this is, yeah, in this case, it's just maps and crap. But we are going to get a little voir dire, but here we'll keep going.

0:24:24 Matt: This is a map.

0:24:28 Clip: Just at a very high level, what are we looking at? From what I see, it looks like the area of U Street and 14th up to U Street Street and 15th. Does it fairly and accurately depict that area as it was that night? To my recollection, yes, sir. Your Honor, I move government's exhibit 1000 into evidence. Your Honor, may I have a brief voir dire? Sure. May I just do it from here? Sure, thank you. Good morning, officer. Sir, how long have you known the area around you and 14th? It was that late, and I don't think I've been there before that night. And you've not been there since, is that correct? No, ma'am, I have not. And other than somebody having told you that's you in 14th, you don't know if that's You in 14, correct? It appears to be the same image that was displayed on the ATAC device that we were operating on that night. You compared the two appearances, and you conclude that's 14th and You. I don't have the ATAT device with me right now, so I have Not had a chance to compare this. I'm just going off pure recollection. And were you prepared to testify about this exhibit by this prosecutor? I've seen this picture before, yes. When he was prepping you? Yes, ma 'am. Okay, I have no objection.

0:25:33 Thomas: There anything that mattered there? Really? It don't know. It sounds like she WAS driving towards something, but then it was just like, all right. I don't know. Was anything there?

0:25:39 Matt: Yeah, he's just doing a job here and making sure that this is something that he's at least somewhat familiar with it, he can recognize the area based on the map. I mean, he said before, he doesn't know the area, he hasn't been there before.

0:25:48 Thomas: I'm asking, do you think there was any strategy there in terms of like trying to emphasize that this guy shouldn't like, he doesn't, he's not like a local cop who knows the area. Was it trying to maybe further illustrate like what is this outsider doing here kind of thing or am I reading too much into it yeah

0:26:02 Matt: That's a good point that you're not a local cop who would know this on site, who know this intersection. That's a good point.

0:26:08 Thomas: Could be what it was but who knows it's

0:26:09 Clip: Government's, it looks like, 1000 .1 exhibit? I think the .1 is just the program we are using to present it. This is just supposed to be 1000. Government's exhibit 1000 is admitted and may be published to the jury.

0:26:21 Thomas: Again you don't get this shit anywhere else

0:26:23 Lydia: Know I love it

0:26:23 Matt: Every

0:26:24 Thomas: Hey we paid a lot for this fucking transcript we're gonna use every god damn word so expensive patreon .com slash gavel pod please reimburse us

0:26:24 Matt: Part

0:26:26 Lydia: Every single character please sir

0:26:31 Matt: Of the transcript buffalo.

0:26:36 Clip: On On August 10th, where were you set up? That night in and around the U Street station. I think we centered around the 14th and U area that night. Can you see that area on the map? Yes, sir. It's on the right of the particular picture. Sure. You have the ability, if you would like, I think, uh, using the screen to circle or basically put a marking on it, if you want. Right around that area, if memory serves. Did you interact with any civilians while you were there? Several, yes, sir. Tell me about those interactions. As we were patrolling, we would get some that would thank us for being there. Objection, hearsay. Did You have any interactions with civilians that - Objection. Was there a ruling, Your Honor? I I apologize.

0:27:17 Clip: Hold on a second. What is your response to the hearsay objection? That's fine. That wasn't where I was going. I will rephrase. Okay, we will strike that question and answer. You may ask another question.

0:27:29 Clip: Did you have any interactions with civilians that brings you to court today? Can you repeat the question, please? Did youhave interactions with any civilians that brings you to court today yes sir can you at a very high level describe what that interaction was the interaction with the individual here in court is he I was right outside the subway restaurant there at 14th and u with a group of other agents and officers from metro transit just observing pedestrian traffic and subject came out of the subway and asked me what I was doing there my response was I'm here supporting the executive order make dc safe and beautiful he then asked me again no what are you doing here I said I'm a federal agent out here doing my job to protect the citizens of dc and supporting the executive order to make dc safe and beautiful at

0:27:28 Lydia: Just Perrin like bulldozing so embarrassing

0:28:14 Clip: That time he became really irritated and started yelling obscenities and berating me directly and then other agents officers that were there do you see that person in the courtroom today I do he's standing right behind you they're sitting rather would you mind just pointing him out and identify an article of clothing he is wearing he's wearing a blue jacket green tie I would like the record to reflect the witness was identified it shall so reflect that thank you did anything specific happen that brings you to court today

0:28:26 Thomas: I don't know why that's so funny well

0:28:28 Matt: He's right behind it.

0:28:39 Lydia: So dramatic yeah

0:28:43 Thomas: I mean it was interesting we did talk um think this I remember this being a Liz thing I don't, I don't know if it was just a Liz episode or whatever but just for non-lawyers they do have to do that it is kind of interesting like if you don't uh Matt you can clarify you it but my memory was that like if you forget and And I think it's happened. Like if you forget to ever do that and identify like, is this the person who whatever, like you, you actually lose the whole thing. You actually have to do that. That's kind of interesting.

0:29:09 Matt: Yeah at some point. I will note that there's a pretty big mistake here because Perrin says, I'd like the record to reflect the witness was identified. He met the defendant.

0:29:16 Thomas: I didn't hear that. Yeah. Wow. That's funny.

0:29:19 Matt: Could have been a small appeal issue.

0:29:20 Thomas: Does that, does that get them out? Yeah.

0:29:24 Clip: Anything specific happen that brings you to court today with relation to that interaction yes sir after several or an extended amount of interaction with subject in the courtroom today he threw subway style sandwich at me which struck me in the chest I would like to please show the witness government's exhibit 2000 please may I remove the blue circle you can do it if you know how can we just play the first five seconds of this video for the witness have

0:29:48 Thomas: I don't know what that is, but it feels like, cause remember you had said that they had, They kind of had to use this like Instagram video or something because that was all they had. I wasn'tt sure if that was like if he was trying to like remove something that's like unremovable or if this is some other thing.

0:30:06 Lydia: I think it's the blue circle that um that used to identify on the map

0:30:11 Matt: Right. It's still on the screen. Yes,

0:30:11 Thomas: Thanks. I wasn't sure. OK. I wasn' t sure if it was like a playback thing, you know, like a play back circle kind of thing. But no, that makes sense.

0:30:17 Lydia: And I think it's funny that the court is like the court probably doesn't know how to do it either and

0:30:20 Thomas: It's like, oh, wow. That's that's what you can do that. That's awesome. Yeah.

0:30:22 Matt: You figure it out. Yeah,

0:30:25 Lydia: Show me

0:30:25 Matt: I will say, I think the Instagram video is going to be the next bit of the show. I'm not sure where this one comes from.

0:30:29 Thomas: That's right. That's right, yeah. Okay,

0:30:32 Matt: We'll find out.

0:30:40 Clip: We just play the first five seconds of this video for the witness have you watched this video before yes sir does it fairly and accurately reflect the events of august 11 2025 yes

0:30:52 Thomas: Okay. The transcript has the wrong date there. We weren't sure what to do, but we just decided to ultimately go with the date.

0:30:56 Matt: I noticed that. So you fixed it.

0:30:59 Thomas: So this lawyer's...

0:31:00 Matt: Good, good.

0:31:00 Thomas: Wait, we didn't fix it, did we? I thought we kept it or did...

0:31:03 Lydia: No we fixed it in our reading because well

0:31:06 Thomas: Well, then we fixed it wrong because it's the 10th, isn't it?

0:31:09 Lydia: We fixed the year because the year is the the problem

0:31:11 Thomas: I'm sorry. I'm mixing up two. There are actually two mistakes. So that might be a transcript thing. We don't know. But I don't know. I'm going to go ahead and say we trust our trustee transcriptionist that maybe you said the wrong year. There's another place I'm thinking, and I could realize I combined the two where someone I think says August 11th instead of August 10th. And that one, I think we kept August 11.

0:31:30 Lydia: That's here too yeah it's the same sentence

0:31:32 Matt: Completely wrong date. Yeah,

0:31:33 Thomas: Okay, so then what you're saying is we decided to fix the year but not the day.

0:31:36 Lydia: Because we were like the year is kind of egregious the year is egregious and the day it's like well whatever hyper

0:31:37 Thomas: Well, then that doesn't make sense. Well, anyway, this is the kind of thing you won't get anyway I

0:31:46 Clip: Sir your honor I move to admit government's exhibit 2000 into evidence no objection government's Exhibit 2000 is admitted and may be published to the jury please continue playing I believe we are at 10 seconds if possible Can we zoom in on that area at the top right -hand area of the screen? Let me stop it here at 33 seconds, please. Do you see yourself in this image? Yes, sir, I do. And where are you? Just beyond the stoplight post, just to the left of the subway establishment. You say the subway. Where is the subway? The subway is the middle of the scene, door in the center, kind of lighted all the way around. You can't really see the subway sign, but it is the restaurant. Looking at this clip that we just watched, what is happening here? That was when Mr. Dunn exited the Subway restaurant and then asked me what I was doing there twice and then became really irritated. What was his demeanor like at first? At first, I thought it was going to be one of many interactions that we had with the public that night where he was asking what we're there for and was going to have a positive or negative reaction and go about his way. Did his demeanour change at all during the course of this conversation? After a second time, I answered his question. His demeanOUR immediately changed to hyper negative. It

0:32:29 Thomas: Don't know why that's so funny to me stupid

0:32:58 Clip: Was red -faced, enraged, and just became really, really mad. He started swearing, berating, calling me and my colleagues all kinds of names, telling us we were fascists, using a multitude of profanities directed toward us. How did you respond? I didn't respond. That's his constitutional right to express his opinion. Keep playing from 33 seconds, please. Stop it here at 52 or 53 seconds, please. What's going on now? It was a continuance of the berating profanity is the shame. He's pointing his finger in an aggressive manner toward all the agents and officers that were there, getting extremely close, really inside of what would be a normal person's space of interaction, where you are uncomfortably close. Now, this part, is it directed at you specifically? No, I'm standing to the left there. He's directing his profanities and beratements to the other officers and agents that are standing there. Was anyone reacting to what he was saying? No, they were wishing him a good day, trying to de -escalate the situation, try not to react to him, try to not escalate the situation. How loud was his voice? Oh, he was screaming at the top of his lungs. Everybody probably within at least half a block radius could hear what he was saying. Keep playing from 53 seconds, please. You can zoom back out now at minute and 17. Stop it here at minute 27, please? What's he doing now? He's continuing the beratement. He's continually calls fascists. He used profanity against us. He was talking to us He's talking to anybody that's around us I think trying to sway anyone else's opinion that is of like mind of him But it's almost like a sermon where he was trying to speak to anybody now

0:32:58 Lydia: Negative I trying to sway anyone else's opinion that is of like mind of him well well, then you're not swaying their opinion. They're already, okay, yeah.

0:34:33 Thomas: It's so buddy yeah

0:34:36 Matt: It's a sermon to the choir. I

0:34:39 Lydia: Anyway, just weird. Greg.

0:34:41 Thomas: No craig yeah

0:34:43 Clip: As he's crossing the street Is your focus on him at this point? We're watching I'm watching as he going away Just to make sure that nothing else is gonna happen that he's not gonna draw a crowd just more for officer safety But at this point my assessment is he's okay. He deescalated. He walked away. He will continue to be mad, but we are good Continue playing from a minute and 37 seconds, please We're watching here at 3 minutes and 55 seconds. Are you having any interaction with him? I know there's no sound at this is there not this time. No, sir here at three minutes and fifty -five seconds What are you all doing at that intersection? Section. Observing vehicular traffic, pedestrian traffic, high visibility, crime prevention. I'm going to draw your attention to the sidewalk on the right that you were on here at four minutes and 54 seconds. What do you see here? We're seeing Mr. Dunn this time running towards us and again starting his profanities and bravement of everyone standing there standing on the corner. When he came back, was his attention focused on you? Not necessarily on me right away, more just on the the group I'm sorry wait one second sustained I think the question can be asked in an appropriate way sure when he came back were you interacting with him specifically no sir not initially stop it at five minutes and 15 seconds please what was going on here at that point he had gone around the corner I believe there was an establishment around the corner and then he'd come back we could hear him yelling and screaming from around the quarter and then you come back he was directly again in In the face of the officers and agents there, continuing his beratement, profanities, just trying any, throwing a bunch of insults. A lot of different things were coming out of the gentleman's mouth. Thank you. We just zoomed in

0:35:04 Lydia: How things changed.

0:35:06 Thomas: And then it all changed yeah

0:36:30 Lydia: Notably,

0:36:31 Clip: On that area for the record.

0:36:31 Lydia: Not a Subway sandwich.

0:36:32 Clip: What was the rest of your group doing while he did that? So at this point, because there was a group, our concern is not only for our safety because he's there, that he might do something there, but also that additional civilians might join in just with any potential action like that. So we are, again, trying not to escalate it, trying to de -escalate it, trying to not provoke reaction. Did anybody make any threats toward him? No, everybody was of the same, hey, he's not doing anything wrong, he can express his opinion. Several of us wished him good night in an attempt to, you're free to go, thank you. Again, just trying not to escalate the situation, not trying to step towards or do anything that might escalate situation overall. Can we keep playing from 5 minutes and 15 seconds, please? Stop it at 5 minutes, and 55 seconds in, please. What's he doing here more of the same pointing shaking his fists just really using a whole bunch of profanity insulting known members of the organization chs as a whole calling us fascists telling us to get the blank out of a city we're not needed anything I think he can do to insult or berate us at this point do you see yourself in this still I do I'm the furthest from the left there you can keep playing from five minutes and 55 seconds please stop it here at six minutes at 44 at some point does he single you out objection leading sustained did you have an interaction with him after this yes as he continued to berate the entire group he stepped toward me directly toward me got very close to me I would say within two feet of me and continued to shout obscenities at me f you my assessment was that he was trying to get me to react did you notice anything in his hand at this point he still had his subway sandwich in his hand at that point continue playing please please. Stop here at 6 minutes and 58 seconds, please. From this point, what happens next? So at this point he's just being really aggressive. He's getting close. He is making really aggressive movements. Again, I think he was attempting to elicit a response from me. I was being very deliberate to not respond. Again trying to de -escalate the situation, wishing him a good night, indicating he could cross the street. And then immediately following this, he rears back and throws a sandwich at me. Keep playing from 6 minutes and 58 seconds please stop at seven minutes five seconds zoom out please what's he doing now now he struck me with the sandwich and he knows that we're attempting to action sustained just physically what's e doing you can't testify about what you think he knows just talk about what's happening what are you attempting to do we are attempting to place him under arrest okay stop Stop. Please take that down and show the witness exhibit 4 ,000. What are we looking at here? It appears to be the Instagram video of him taken from across the street with the crowd from across the street. Have you watched this video before? Yes, sir. Does it fairly and accurately depict the events of August 10th? Yes, Sir. Your Honor, I move for government's exhibit 4 .000 to be admitted. No objection. Government's 4 .00 is admitted and may be published to the jury. Thank you, Your Honor. Just play the first minute and 27 seconds what part of the events that we just talked about are we watching this is secondary he's already had his interaction with me from across the street this is after he crosses the street from the previous video where the other agents were getting ready to cross the street via the crosswalk and he's interacting with a small crowd that's across the Street what were you guys doing at that point we were trying to keep an eye on him we can still hear shouting but just make sure he wasn't going to come back again concern for officer safety or any possible possible violation that he would have an interaction with another private citizen keep playing from 27 seconds please did you guys show up in a white car not at that location no sir did you show up in a car that night we were in a White Car we parked over near Capital One Arena keep playing from 106 please stopping here at 17 please who is he talking to here he was in between talking to the crowd at the corner from the establishment right around the corner at 14th and U and then addressing the other agents and officers that were standing on the corner with us. Who is the agent that he is standing closest to? Do you know? I believe that is Agent Trejo. Keep playing from 117, please. Stop here at 126. Can you tell better now? It definitely is Assistant Chief Trejo, and where are you in relation to where this is happening? I'm behind again toward the stoplight probably 10 feet behind Agent Trejo Do you see any people in your group respond to this interaction he was having with Trejo? No, just Just watching to the left and right again, making sure no one is going to join Mr. Dunn in his activities or making sure nothing would happen with Assistant Chief Trejo and watching other pedestrian vehicular traffic. Just officer safety. Keep playing from 126, please. Please stop it here at 2 minutes and 19 seconds, please, what's happening now? He's yelling at the top of his lungs, screaming profanities directed at me, just really making aggressive movements. He's very, very close to me. How close is he? Probably within 2 feet, foot and a half. Uncomfortably close. What was his demeanor like? Very, very aggressive. Yelling, red face, kind of pointing his fingers at me, kind of making that furtive movement up and down with his upper body, just acting pretty aggressive. Can you describe what you were doing with your body posture here? I am very deliberately not making any reaction, not forward, not backward. It's not a normal situation. Normally in this type of situation, even from training, you're trained to bring your hands up to defend yourself because this is a potential aggressor. But knowing that I could potentially escalate the situation by doing that, Stepping forward, stepping backwards, putting my hands up. I'm being very deliberate in not bringing my hands up and not trying to react. Why

0:42:09 Matt: He is armed, so you got to look out.

0:42:12 Lydia: Yeah, yeah, he's armed, exactly. Really

0:42:14 Matt: Fully armed.

0:42:12 Thomas: Sorry

0:42:14 Lydia: Focus on this idea of, like, part of it was related to the objection that Dunn was trying to get them to react. Glad that was objected to and sustained because, like, very well could have just been like, I just don't want them there. I don't want them in the city in general, but I don't want standing where they are. I feel like that's threatening to the people inside that that establishment. I would like to see them walk away. And that would be a reaction. I guess maybe, I don't know. I just, I feel like it's this idea of like that Dunn is saying all these things just to get them to start going off too. And then you have this escalated war of words and then that potentially gets violent. Like, dunno, I think it's the way that they're trying to characterize that situation I feel is just ridiculous but right

0:42:59 Matt: Which is why there's that objection at one point where the judge has to tell him, you can only see what you observed. Don't try to guess what he was thinking. And he's also saying that he's concerned that he is going to whip up a riot or some kind of crowd response because he's preaching to everybody. That's all fine. I mean, this is all just state of mind trying to establish both sides, what's going on. Stretching it out a lot, but there's not a lot to talk about here. So keep

0:43:19 Clip: And not trying to react. Why is that? I didn't want to make the situation worse. Again, he has done nothing wrong at this point. It's uncomfortable, like I said, but he's expressing his opinion, be that what it may. But he's done nothing to cause me to react He's done, there's no violation here. What does he do next? Next he takes a step back and then he throws a sandwich at me. How far away from you was he when he did that? Probably about three feet. How much force did he use? Objection. Sustained.

0:43:46 Clip: What was the impact like? I could feel it through my ballistic vest. The sandwich separated and kind of exploded all over my uniform. I could smell the onions and mustard and had stuff all over my uniform afterwards. Did you have a medical emergency or anything like

0:43:59 Matt: I'm sorry, can you play that again? I've read this, and it is the centerpiece of the entire trial for me, and I have to hear it again.

0:44:00 Thomas: It's so good it's so good it's so

0:44:06 Matt: Even having read it, I am just there. I'm hearing you as a cop so well here. I have to hear it again.

0:44:07 Thomas: Good

0:44:12 Clip: What does he do next? Next he takes a step back and then he throws a sandwich at me. How far away from you was he when he did that? Probably about three feet. How much force did he use? Objection. Sustained.

0:44:25 Clip: What was the impact like? I could feel it through my ballistic vest. The sandwich separated and kind of exploded all over my uniform. I could smell the onions and mustard and had stuff all over my uniform afterwards. Did you have a medical emergency or anything like that? No, sir. Were you hurt? No, Sir. Keep

0:44:42 Thomas: I people shouting why God why oh the humanity

0:44:47 Matt: Yeah, this is the point at which the jury laughed, Not the first time, but there was recorded laughter. Not on the transcript, but yeah, now the Atlantic reporter who was there talked about people were having trouble controlling it.

0:44:53 Thomas: Man. Yeah. That's pretty good.

0:44:59 Matt: An incredible paragraph. I love it so much about how he could feel it through his vest. He feels the sandwich separated like it's in slow motion, right?

0:45:06 Lydia: Yeah exactly. Exactly.

0:45:06 Thomas: Exactly.

0:45:07 Matt: Reliving the trauma of the onions and mustard. Smell everywhere.

0:45:10 Thomas: It's very much reminiscent of like a bullet fragment, like, you know going through doing extra like tissue damage

0:45:14 Matt: I can Matrix -style sandwich time.

0:45:17 Lydia: Exactly. Get CSI on the scene.

0:45:21 Matt: It slows down. I guess he has to ask if there's a medical emergency, but what an incredible question.

0:45:21 Thomas: Sandwich time so good I interpreted that as like to get ahead of like if he's not making that big of a deal about it but I don't know maybe

0:45:33 Lydia: See.

0:45:34 Matt: I would definitely ask that on cross if the rect hadn't raised it, right? Because you really want to make the point to the jury that he didn't have to check himself in. Have to have a medical academy.

0:45:39 Thomas: Right yeah it was this impatient was this yeah how many nights in the hospital did you spend oh

0:45:52 Matt: Should have asked about a dry cleaning bill, but

0:45:53 Lydia: Know. Exactly. That's all I can think about is the dry cleaning. Those are the damages here.

0:45:54 Thomas: Man yeah yeah yeah oh

0:45:59 Matt: That's taxpayers anyway.

0:46:00 Lydia: Yeah?

0:46:01 Clip: Were you hurt? No, Sir. Keep playing from 2 minutes and 19 seconds. Can we publish Exhibit 1000, please? I want to talk a little bit about the chase afterwards. Afterwards, earlier, you testified that you started on the right -hand side of this exhibit. Which direction did he go in? This exhibit, if north is up, then he's going pretty much directly west, and then he crossed U Street over to the southern part, and then crossed back to the northern part of U Street, and then continued west. You could just use the marker to describe his flight path.

0:46:33 Clip: Here across the street, down, up, and continued this way. And did you chase after him? Yes, sir. Sir, did you go across the street as well, or did you just stay on the top side? We did cross the street. We weren't sure if there was going to be a vehicle or pedestrian accident. We were concerned. Objection to the we, objection to the concern. He can testify about what he did. Yes, just testify about your own view at the time. Yes, sir. How you acted and what you did. Yes, Sir. Myself and the other agents that were with me pursued him up the street, across U Street. Again, concerned for us being impacted by vehicles that were going up and down the street I crossed back again to the north side of U Street there and continued westbound on U Street toward 15th and U. How did the chase end? We were able to get one of the officers or agents, I believe it was. I don't remember who it was, but one of law enforcement that was in a vehicle came to 15th and U and turned in to cut off his path there, continuing up. And what did he do? He saw once the agents got out of that vehicle that he couldn't continue past. So he stopped running and turned right there at the end of 15th and U, and grabbed a hold of some type of fence there. And what happened after that? After that, we came upon him and then placed him in restraints. Were you there when that happened? Yes, sir. Were you aware of any force that was used during his arrest? There was no force necessary. He complied once we were there and put his hands behind his back, and then we placed him under restraints, and then we placed them in a seated position. The court's brief indulgence. No further questions, your honor. Thank you. It seems to me this is a perfect time for a mid -morning break. The witness is reminded that you are under oath. You are not to speak about your testimony with anyone one during this break why don't we go back on the record at 10 50 okay everybody can sit actually

0:46:33 Lydia: Flight path. Feels so short for I mean I don't know if like just trump trial has affected me so deeply um and that's not the normal but yeah like like where where does this land in the scheme of things for yeah your star witness yeah and it just feels like it flows by so so quickly I don't know

0:48:19 Thomas: This is v1 this is the victim

0:48:27 Matt: Yeah, that's right. Does. Because it's such a compelling story. It's just right there. I mean, the moment, but no, you're totally right. I had the same thought that for direct examination of a victim in a federal case, this has to be be some kind of record. It's very short.

0:48:39 Thomas: Why you

0:48:39 Lydia: Almost like makes it feel like disqualifying that this is a case at all like the fact that it's such a short

0:48:52 Thomas: Imagine the judge is gonna be like you know that really wasn't enough I think um we're done here that's all you got

0:48:58 Matt: Got any other victims or

0:48:59 Lydia: He just lays down his gavel really fast yeah that's enough yeah pulls out a subway sandwich from underneath his judge's box and goes to lunch

0:49:03 Thomas: Well this was a waste of time yeah yeah

0:49:00 Matt: Is there a crime here? Yeah. Can imagine other federal crimes where the victim doesn't have that much to say about it. A guy just appeared out of nowhere and robbed me and ran away, right? I mean that's possible, I guess. You don't need to have that much, but yeah, this is it. Yeah, this this is the case.

0:49:20 Lydia: This is like it, too. I mean, like, just,

0:49:25 Matt: This is the case in chief.

0:49:26 Thomas: It that's our case yeah

0:49:27 Matt: Yep, pretty much. There's going to be one other witness, but this is the star. And no, it is really, and they're really getting through. I don't think they need to talk about the chase that much, but you know, get every aspect of this.

0:49:38 Lydia: His flight path.

0:49:37 Thomas: The chase I yeah I think they're so I that all struck me as like you're trying to paint everything they the officers did is very very reasonable, not forceful, you know, and, and just that I think it further emphasizes like this guy sucks, you Know, cause we were, we were so calm. We didn't even, we look at that. They did beat the shit out of him when we, youknow, arrest him. Like we normally do pretty much every other time on our best behavior.

0:49:53 Matt: He's out of control. Right.

0:50:02 Lydia: Exactly. We were on a best behavior. He also says like, like you know that he's hurling insults and, and and shame at us. And you can't hurl shame at somebody like Like that's a feeling that you would feel.

0:50:13 Thomas: That that's the the shame within you sir yeah

0:50:15 Lydia: Yeah. And if you're feeling it, then listen to it and get a new job.

0:50:19 Thomas: Let it be a sign

0:50:23 Matt: I had that thought too about the shame. Yeah, no, I mean, he comes off as a total pro, and certainly I think Thomas really embodied the cop talk. There was some real cop talk happening here.

0:50:39 Thomas: So there's a little thing at at the the End here. Let's see what what this is

0:50:41 Matt: It's pretty interesting, this last bit.

0:50:44 Clip: Can sit actually why don'T you leave the courtroom agent certainly I'm not sure that was strictly necessary okay so there is this discovery dispute what are we talking about exactly I heard something about gifts or something what are these things I know what gifts are but are there particular ones here yes after the event some of his colleagues gave him gag gifts oh gifts yes sorry not gifts gifts with a T. Okay, yes. Commemorating the events.

0:51:12 Matt: Let's send him some memes.

0:51:13 Clip: It doesn't, from the government's perspective, have anything to do with what happened here. It wasn't anything he asked for. It isn't anything that he said. What are they? I think they're at his office. We have photographs of them. Just describe to me what they are. Uh, there's a plush Subway sandwich and a patch that has, it says, felony footlong on it or something like that. Your view is that those are both, if they weren't required to be disclosed during discovery and in any event not admissible or usable on cross -examination? That's correct. Okay. What's the defense view on these? Your Honor, our view is that the gag gifts given and gag gifts received by the person who is testifying here today are reflective of the collective state of mind of the CBP as well as this particular agent's co -workers. The fact that he received the gifts... Why is their collective state -of -mind relevant? I was going to get to the relevant part. I was just giving background for the record. Okay. The fact that the witness kept the gifts is reflective of his state of mind, that he too understands this whole thing to be overblown, to be worthy of a joke, to be worth... How is that relevant in this case, whether the witness has that view? Why is the witness's state of mind about the charges here relevant? The witness's State of Mind of the charges is relevant because it conflicts with the testimony he has given so far. The testimony he's given so, far, apparently, as I heard it, and I did want to check my notes so I don't get it wrong, was that he was genuinely concerned about Mr. Dunn being an actual threat to him or to his colleagues. And then after the sandwich was thrown at him, he's testified that it exploded. The fact that he's sitting in federal court testifying about that shows that he is now saying this is a serious issue. Now, to the extent that this witness testified about the seriousness of the offense from his perspective, not whether there should be a charge, not the CBP's collective knowledge or anything, but to the extent that the witness testified about his reaction at the time, I believe it's fair game for you to cross -examine him on how truly credible he is on that question. And it seems to me that you can get into whether he received gag gifts. I don't think we need the gifts. You can do the cross - examination, but I'm saying to the extend that because I have the transcript here, I do think that the witnesses suggested that it was a serious situation, both before and during the sandwich throw and that you can cross -examine him on whether he really believed that and that includes asking him whether he received gag gifts and whether that's inconsistent with the nature of his testimony so I'm permitting the cross - examination but I'm going to put you on a very short leash I don't really think you need the gifts to do this I'm certainly not going to suspend no no no I wasn't disagreeing you just give me these looks like you think I've said something that is irrational. No, it's my brain thinking. I'm not giving you any look. I apologize for that. So what's the problem with what I've set? It's not. I was trying to think if I could ask for an intermediate remedy, actually. Okay, what's that? That was to ask if the court would require the government to at least describe the gifts in some amount of detail. If he already has, I apologize. I'm having very hard... I heard him say there was a fake Subway sandwich and an award or something that described something like a footlong award. I thought there was third gift. Those are the two that I heard. I'm happy. Why don't we do this? Government shall describe to you in some detail

0:54:30 Clip: These gifts, enough for you to cross -examine the witness on this point. Again, I think that this is fair game for cross - examination, to the extent that getting gag gifts tends to undermine his testimony, either express or implied, that at the time he thought this was a very serious event. Okay? Thank you. Okay. See you, everyone. Still at 1050. Okay.

0:54:51 Matt: So gag gifs. Never heard of anything like this happening, But you've got somebody who identifies as a victim who has been allegedly assaulted, and all of his friends and colleagues are giving him funny gifs about what a funny thing it was that he got hit by a sandwich. Because it is funny.

0:55:05 Lydia: Was funny money yeah and

0:55:07 Matt: We all know it. It's interesting that she's trying to get this in, because I think he really said that he felt like he was in danger at any point. I think he was more concerned about what the crowd was going to do, right?

0:55:07 Thomas: It is funny yeah

0:55:09 Lydia: Did greg well

0:55:18 Thomas: I mean you did say exploded I think that's the exploded thing yeah

0:55:19 Lydia: It's kind of implied and like and like and yeah when you get like um he's creating this situation like oh if you rile get more people up now we're talking about a mob like like I think like the jury's minds like what they're hearing those words I think you automatically start to go those places which can become more violent and and dangerous um I don't know I thought it was fair I god there's so much about that particular interaction that I think is like really interesting starting with um and I don' know if you had thoughts on this on matt uh like they're gonna have this conversation before excusing lairmore um the the court it says actually why don't you leave the courtroom agent and then he says certainly and then the court responds I'm not sure that was strictly strictly necessary. Okay. And then he continues on with that. And my initial question was, I think it is in response to whether or not he needs to have this conversation without Lairmore there. It be okay to have that conversation with anybody not counseled? I don't know. I just, I don'T, I guess I'm trying to understand that I'm not sure that was strictly necessary, why the court would think that, like, why would it be okay to have this conversation in front of lairmore is

0:56:20 Thomas: Do make that comment or okay

0:56:24 Matt: Yeah. He's saying that about his own decision to tell the courtroom. I see that. Yeah, why don't you leave the courtroom, agent? He leaves. I am not sure that was necessary, the thing I just did, apparently. I

0:56:34 Thomas: It's kind of I mean I yeah like a comment just like being safe like trying to emphasize that yeah I don't know I'm not it was a little weird well

0:56:42 Lydia: It just weird yeah

0:56:42 Matt: Yeah. Like you said, they're going to be talking about his testimony. He can't be there.

0:56:43 Lydia: I don't know yeah yeah

0:56:46 Thomas: What did the judge think they were going to talk about at that point because there's does the judge know exactly what she's going to bring up

0:56:53 Matt: Well, he raises it, the discovery dispute. That was the only discovery dispute that was identified up front was about these gifts. He heard it as gifts, like he's not come up to the point that he thought they were memes.

0:57:02 Thomas: Wait a minute we're not on the we're Not on the phone are we did say he should leave and then they're also talking on the Phone okay

0:57:08 Matt: Yeah, jury's out, witness is out, they're not on the phone.

0:57:11 Thomas: Darn well good I mean good because I would have wanted to do my phone sound effect again

0:57:15 Lydia: It Was a really good phone sound effect yeah

0:57:16 Matt: Yes, it is.

0:57:16 Thomas: They better tell me next time they're on the phone.

0:57:18 Lydia: Because I really no scenario where if there's a discovery dispute among counsel that it's okay to have the victim like hear the details of that like I don' t know strange anyway that was was one thing that caught my eye um then of course you know gifts versus gifts is hilarious this is like just premiere comedy um

0:57:28 Thomas: Seems weird.

0:57:35 Matt: It's funny. Classic mix -up.

0:57:39 Thomas: It's funny for the judge to be anticipating like the more technological thing.

0:57:44 Lydia: Yeah let back and forth too between the court and uh counsel about relevancy relevancy of the gifts at all also felt to me like I don't I is the judge poking at this so much like I don't know it just feels like yeah it's obviously obvious that it's relevant but I I'm not I'm not a lawyer and so

0:57:59 Thomas: I don't know. I think it was, I, okay. This came across to me like the, Lydia lawyer did a good job here. Cause they aren't, this isn't typically stuff that would come in. Right, Matt? Mean, this is like about, yeah, yeah. This is out of the normal for it to to come in. Right. So I thought she did a great job. Good argument to kind of establish establish that.

0:58:10 Matt: It's pretty out there. Do appreciate that he's parsing this because he's stepping and doing what the court should do in a situation like this. She just said that we're looking at the collective state of mind of the CBP. You can't do that. You Can't possibly say what the collective state of a giant organization is, right? Well as this particular agent's coworkers. Now, that's a little more legitimate because those are the people that see him the most and work with them. Would And know, they'd be able to gauge whether it's funny or not to make fun of this, whether it'S something he takes personally or not. So the court jumps in and asks, why is their collective state of mind relevant, which is an important question. Also, how are you going to prove collective state -of -mind, I think is sort of the implied there.

0:58:47 Lydia: That's fair.

0:58:48 Matt: It's also his state - of -mind about how he feels about it. If I was hit by a drunk driver, I'd be pretty pissed if somebody sent me a gag gift or the hot wheels of the car that hit me or whatever. I mean, that'd be terrible. I can't think of really many other crimes would be funny. There are funny crimes, I guess, but

0:58:53 Thomas: You wouldn't get like gag gifts of like beer bottles. Right? .Yeah. and and I think other times if it was is at all funny it wouldn't really say much about the nature of the crime just because something funny might happen to you and still be entirely a crime whereas where seems to me we're in this very specific weird thing where and this doesn't it like like this ever happens where this silly of a thing is being charged as this very serious federal crime.

0:59:30 Thomas: So it's like, it feels like this is very rare that this would all be relevant in this exact way. And it feels to me like she, she know, like she kind of got, I know how much this matters, but scored a bit of a victory here that seemed unexpected to me, but I'm not the lawyer. So, but that's what it seemed like to me.

0:59:45 Matt: Yeah, it's a huge vector. I mean, it's really important that you hear about this because for all they know, he's been having nightmares about it. You never know.

0:59:53 Thomas: It would kind of prevent that anything like that, you know, like it's maybe it doesn't, maybe it doesn't prove much but yeah but like you can't imagine him now testifying like yeah I was horrified I still wake up and you know yeah it would be kind of harder to do that later

0:59:56 Lydia: It's true. It is a guard rail.

1:00:06 Matt: Right. Or yeah, I was actually in fear for my life. Is going to come up again in a big way. She's going to really push the limits about the gag gifts by the end of this trial. We're not anywhere near that yet, but something to look out for in closing.

1:00:14 Thomas: Love it wow yeah

1:00:15 Lydia: Interesting. So this is really key. All

1:00:19 Matt: Yes, she certainly thinks so. And it's also not something they're entitled to in discovery. So it's like this weird kind of in -between thing.

1:00:26 Thomas: How weird is it to not get something in discovery but be able to use it that seems bizarre yeah

1:00:31 Matt: Saying we've got photos of it back in the office, but we can at least describe it to you so that you know what they're looking at. Yeah, the photos aren't in evidence, and it's not really relevant for discovery. It's just something they happen to know about. I was even wondering how they knew about it. There was a snitch that told them about the gag gifts.

1:00:44 Thomas: That's interesting good point is

1:00:46 Matt: Maybe somebody posted on socials that they'd given them this gift or something.

1:00:43 Lydia: Could

1:00:50 Matt: It seems like it

1:00:50 Lydia: Be something on

1:00:50 Thomas: There any way through a discovery battle they would have to say what they're not giving them and that would have told them um yeah not really

1:00:50 Lydia: Twitter.

1:00:57 Matt: Doesn't really fall into any kind of mandatory discovery. It'd be the kind of thing that you'd have to know and ask for it. And if I go back and look, actually, when they're asking up front at the beginning. Perrin at the begin mentions the defense had made a request for some gifts. We don't think they're relevant or discoverable. We can disclose them if the court orders it, but we don't they're discoverable, and so the court is kind of cutting a compromise here by saying, okay, we're not going to introduce the pictures. We're not gonna talk that much about it. But if you want to just informally ask the government so that you have enough information to cross -examine, this is kind of a weird in -between too, that she's not working from any actual firm evidence. She's just going to go from a description that's provided to her. I've never heard anything quite like that before. Strange, the whole thing. Yeah, it is unusual that something not discoverable would be this key for undermining a witness.

1:01:26 Thomas: Very interesting bit of law there. Good stuff

1:01:42 Matt: Yeah, out of these gig gifts.

1:01:43 Lydia: Also, man, like the interpersonal nuggets we're getting here too, just that you can't get from someone just sitting and no one's going to be reporting on this if they're sitting in court listening to the case but because of the transcript we get these beautiful little moments where the court is like um know you just give me these looks like you think I've said something that is irrational and and she's like no no no I swear I'm I'm not trying to give you a look yeah she

1:02:08 Matt: Just my brain, just

1:02:08 Thomas: I really felt for her here I was like oh man I get it I get it lawyer lady yeah yeah that's what happens to me too

1:02:16 Matt: Stuck that way.

1:02:13 Lydia: Like can't help it um yeah yeah then uh additionally like when we get perrin saying trying to insert himself in this conversation he's not invited to apparently

1:02:26 Thomas: I'm happy to yeah I thought we were lydia and I were laughing about that where he's like I'm happy to and the judge like shut the fuck up yeah

1:02:28 Lydia: We were laughing so much like I'm here too too. The adults are talking. Perrin, yeah. Little baby lawyer.

1:02:38 Thomas: How'd I how'd I do it to do over again I should do like a kid voice for that lawyer

1:02:46 Matt: No, this is why I love transcripts. I'm glad you guys appreciate this too, because just all these little human moments that come out. Even the part that you cut, which is totally fine that you've cut it, but even when the court is talking about how the air conditioning gets loud, you know, it's... Excuse me, the

1:02:58 Thomas: Gets loud oh oh oh when they just couldn't hear yeah

1:03:01 Matt: HVAC.

1:03:01 Lydia: She can't hear his testimony.

1:03:03 Matt: Yeah, but he mentions at one point to the jury, I think even, that let me know if you can't hear it because it gets loud during the day. Just these little courtroom vignettes of

1:03:12 Thomas: A minute was this the end of direct for sure or did that he just cut in to say oh

1:03:17 Lydia: Didn't but but didn't the judge say like that the government would set you up there so you can ask about it and then they don't because we get into cross right away oh

1:03:17 Matt: I think

1:03:26 Thomas: It would be during oh yeah hmm well

1:03:30 Matt: What he meant was the attorneys could talk about it and the government could provide their best summary of what it is.

1:03:34 Lydia: I see I see government shall describe to you in some detail I guess I took that to mean that they would that

1:03:38 Thomas: Cross it the the topic has to be opened up for you to ask on it on cross, right? So, so there's the, is the judge just like going be like, okay, we'll let you do that. Or,

1:03:43 Lydia: This is like just an agreement very

1:03:49 Matt: Well, impeachment, so I think that you can impeach him. You get him to say on cross that, yes, I was really afraid, or yes, I took this very seriously. And then you're like, well, what about these gifts? Isn't it true that you received a felony footlong plush stuffy sandwich?

1:04:02 Thomas: I always mix up with the, so there is the stuff you can't ask about on cross unless, but that's only one class of evidence, right? Isn't there? Cause I assume, I assume that if there was some horrible evidence that they had, you get out of it by the government just not asking about it on direct like obviously there's also a class of evidence that like the defense can just bring up apropos of nothing right what's the what's difference there evidence-wise again I've it's been a while since we've done t3b hmm

1:04:28 Matt: Well, this isn't going to be impeachment evidence. So impeachment evidence you can pretty much raise any time if you feel like you can undermine what the witness is saying. Generally, yeah, if something's already been introduced in discovery, they could introduce it on cross if it's going to have

1:04:39 Thomas: I the thing I'm asking is what's the thing I'm thinking of where you can ask about it unless it was brought up in direct correct what

1:04:47 Matt: Be within the scope, generally speaking. The questions have to put it in the scope of what the direct was. You couldn't just start asking him about what he did the night before or some other aspect of this encounter that wasn't at all discussed.

1:04:59 Thomas: Interesting that makes sense all

1:05:01 Matt: Yeah, next we'll get the cross-examination, we'll

1:05:03 Thomas: Right I'm excited for that I'm excited I'm always excited to be cross-examined by my wife it's something that we uh love to partake in lots

1:05:11 Matt: A redirect and a recross. This is going to be very thorough.

1:05:16 Thomas: Lots more cop voice I'll work on it all right well thanks so much matt thanks everybody for listening uh as usual the thing we use pretty much all of it this time but as we go along I'm sure there's stuff we're going to skip and that'll be all available on patreon.com/gavelpod so thanks for listening and supporting and we'll see you next time

1:05:19 Matt: More. How it

1:05:57 Thomas: You be like ah that sucked actually judge I'm not uh not really what I was going for at all

1:05:59 Lydia: Try again.

1:05:57 Matt: Goes. Yeah. You didn't go method and just wander around the house as a cop for a few days and try that out.

1:06:09 Thomas: I beat the shit out of lydia real quick um just to get in character

1:06:09 Lydia: I would have divorced him. Yeah. I'm not married to any cop. You're out of here.

1:06:15 Thomas: That's true yeah I didn't talk to

1:06:18 Lydia: Yeah exactly well first you cheated on me you cheated on me several times and then yeah

1:06:20 Matt: That's that method, actually?

1:06:21 Thomas: My kids for several days. Yeah. Just average cop stuff.