Lively v. Baldoni 54 - Alright We're Not Leaving Until We Solve This

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:01 Clip: All rise. Court is now in session. Court is reconvened. I may be seated. Maintain order. The federal rise to face the jury and harken to its verdicts.

0:00:26 Thomas: Gavel Gavel heads. How's it going? I'm Thomas. That's Lydia. How you doing?

0:00:31 Lydia: I am needing my gavel today just to kind of keep track of everything. Like, I need, yeah, a gavel for each rabbit hole we're going to go down. It's going to be a lot of gavels.

0:00:35 Thomas: Yeah, I need my comfort gavel, my emotional support gavel.

0:00:42 Thomas: Oh yeah, and then you can do like the hit the game, the whack -a -mole with the gavels. Gavel the rabbit. Yeah.

0:00:45 Lydia: Oh, yeah. Whack -a -mole. Mm -hmm. Mm‑hmm. Whack a PR person. I'm just kidding. That's not a threat. If any lawyers are listening, I don't actually mean anything bad. Okay. Sorry. Continue.

0:00:55 Thomas: Jeez, you're rattled.

0:00:56 Lydia: I am.

0:00:56 Thomas: She's rattled, everyone. We are both spiraling, everyone. Enjoy us mid -spiral. I would say not mid -spiral. I would say we're hopefully like 80 % through the spiral.

0:01:06 Lydia: I hope so.

0:01:08 Thomas: So, okay, let me do my best to set this up here. First, I should say we are on Wayfair v. Lively. This is not sandwich stuff. You will hear sandwich stuff another time. We have been talking about this August 7th and 8th and kind of 9th text thread because it is where we got to on the Wayfair v. Lively complaint. And we spent about an episode on that. I was hoping that would be it. There's just something key going on here. There's something really important. It's like a critical time. It really is the time when all the shit hit the fan in a way. I think that this was when a bunch of trust was lost. Some of it does seem to be a real game of telephone and a real game of like...

0:01:35 Lydia: Yeah, it is. Yeah yeah.

0:01:48 Thomas: It's a cold war situation where it's like when you're already expecting the other side to do something wrong, it's everything's going to be looked at in a negative light and just quickly spiraled. We've been trying to dig through and see who is responsible for this. If we can, if anyone, we've been trying to determine that because there's a Daily Mail story that, as we've covered, initially folks thought Stephanie Jones did it. Stephanie Jones, eventually, as We've covered in her lawsuit, claims that Melissa planted stuff. I think at first she has claimed that Jen has, but I think later in her law suit, she's claiming it's Melissa. So we've Been really trying to sort through this because it's just so confusing. There's so much and we've only gotten a small picture. So what happened was we recorded the last episode and we pretty much thought like, all right, that'll kind of leave it there for now. And then what happened is I had some real like detective -y aha moments. And so we had to record a little more. So we recorded about, well, it was like an hour, but we kind of spiraled and I cut 30 minutes of spiral. We

0:02:44 Thomas: Recorded probably like 20, 25 usable minutes with some real aha moments that I'm going to play that for you. That's what we're going to next because that's the kind of stuff I love on here too is like us genuinely making discoveries and all that and there's some I think we've made a pretty good discovery I think this is something that's like pretty key we recorded that on January 7th so full transparency we recorded that 20-25 minutes on January 7th and then because we spiraled out on another spiral we didn't know what to do with it and then it was like stuff was about to become unsealed and we're like is this going to be irrelevant and so we didn'T know exactly what what to do with it. I kept wanting to try to release it, but it's just, we are really mid spiral because this is a tough thing to wrap our minds around. And I'm sure if we're having trouble looking at the stuff, I'm Sure, it's gonna be hard for you folks. But I think we'll be able to like, I want to go to what we had, which was genuinely fun aha moments. And then we're going to come back and we're gonna regroup. We're going to fast forward into like the now times.

0:02:51 Lydia: In real time. Yeah mm -hmm mm -hm.

0:03:39 Thomas: And And hopefully we can, I wouldn't say wrap it all up, but hopefully we can kind of like put

0:03:44 Lydia: In a good holding state.

0:03:44 Thomas: This to, yeah, like to not to rest, but like to nap until maybe more information. But all that is to say, we're going to go to break and then come back to our previously recorded aha moments about this August 8th and 9th stuff. And then we'll see you after that and we'll, we'll catch up. We'll see how you've been. We'll warp into the future after that. So we'll take our usual break, sports show, patreon.com/gavelpod. and after the break we'll transport into the past yeah I

0:04:09 Lydia: See you on the other side.

0:04:19 Ad: [Ad break 1 — ad music]

0:04:20 Thomas: Remembered right that it was the hiring melissa for crisis article that it's suspected that she planted but it's interesting to look at this now because page 22 of the jones v abel original complaint this is from tara hanks to jen abel on 8 14 so you know six days after this says text from stephanie about the hr article and us hiring Melissa for Crisis, and then it's quoted. This wasn't planted by Leslie. This is playbook by Melissa. There was no New York Post story she kept at bay. And then she says this, Melissa's sister works at Page Six. Isn't that wrong?

0:04:45 Lydia: Well she did. I don't think she still bill did at that point let me Go on her LinkedIn.

0:05:01 Thomas: We need to flood zones with positive press and push back on claims. There's no counter to claims in story. His complimentary soundbites of Blake need to be covered on high SEO sites.

0:05:11 Lydia: Page six features editor that is listed under the new york post experience so there must be like acquisition sort of situation there but that was from may 2018 to august 2019 so at the time when all this was happening she was an editor at large at new yorg

0:05:24 Thomas: I think Stephanie might have gotten something wrong there.

0:05:31 Lydia: Post. Yeah.

0:05:31 Thomas: There's another thing that I think Stephanie got wrong, which is just nobody has perfect information. But the thing I've been struggling with this whole time is just how like convenient this all feels. And like, I've Been trying to figure out, it's like, I have these, I don't know, like principles. It's like kind of parsimony and just, I Don't think plots or schemes that have a bunch of steps. I don'T think they, for one really exist. And for two are ever work. Like, it'S just, yeah, it 'S just like, it''s too hard. I Don'T think Melissa Nathan is like Moriarty, you know, it´s like, I just don't. So I've Been trying to Figure out and it Hasn't felt like it's clicked, but I think, okay. Okay. For one, I realized something. Here's my realization. We know that Melissa's lying. Like this is overdetermined at this point, but one more bit of proof.

0:05:46 Lydia: Sure effective yeah yeah yeah mm Mm-hmm.

0:06:13 Thomas: So once again, returning to the text, I won't read through them, but just to know what we're talking about, where it's on Zoom, want to tell you something funny, you know, and Jen says, Steph chimed into the Daily Mail, blah, blah, bla. Jamie told her to stand down. Gone through that a bunch of times. But then think about this. She says, I think she might've called a person at DM. She won't tell you.

0:06:31 Thomas: Why does she say she won't tell her? How would she possibly know that? There's no way she would know that. All Melissa knows in this conversation right now is that Steph chimed into the Daily Mail article and then screenshot it. And then, you know, exactly what Jen said.

0:06:34 Lydia: Right

0:06:46 Thomas: For all Melissa really knows, Steph could have been like, oh yeah, no, I talked to him. The only reason she would proactively say she won't tell you is because she knows it's not real. Yeah.

0:06:46 Lydia: Right yeah so you have to to put in those guardrails yeah mm

0:07:00 Thomas: It's just kind of an accidental tell. It'S one of those things where you don't think about it. Cause like, Oh yeah. You know, if the theory is that she's done something wrong, then yeah, no, she's not going to tell. But it's like, that doesn't make sense at this time at all. She has no idea. The other thing I was thinking that's interesting along these same lines is if you think about what this would be like for Melissa, again, it's just, it is overdetermined that she's lying. But the fact that this is the first time she's telling anybody, like we can believe that this happened relatively recently, like within, you know, whatever, hours or something. But if this was just an innocent thing where Melissa found out that someone talked to press, What would she do? She would email the team and be like, hey, somebody talked to the, who did this? You know, did somebody do this? Melissa's not in charge of the entire PRF.

0:07:44 Thomas: She's just the crisis, whatever. But she didn't do that. She completely held onto it because she knows the truth. And then only when Jen Abel tells her this and she seizes the opportunity to say, oh, wow, I know what happened. And dann she kind of passes it off to Jen Able. So here's what I think happened. I can't say exactly, but I think what might have happened is that the plan for Melissa was at the very least what I already said to kind of, I think she's got to be coordinating with James. I'm pretty certain about that.

0:08:15 Thomas: Too coincidental for James to have said that. Here's what it could have been. The article they're holding may be something they want to drop on Blake, but they want justification, which is kind of already what I said, but with a slightly finer point, which is, okay, we'll hold this article. And then she has James do what James is going to do. And I think the main thing Melissa intended to do was just get Leslie to do something or possibly to get the news or the rumor that Steph Jones is the one who leaked to get that through Leslie. Because imagine if Leslie then tells Wayfair, you know, angrily calls somebody or whatever and is like, hey, Stephanie Jones is talking shit or whatever.

0:08:49 Lydia: Right right right

0:08:58 Thomas: I think that's what she intended. I don't think Melissa intended this to get back to her sister. I think dat might have been an accident. And that's why when her sister texts and is, like, why are you talking to whatever, Melissa genuinely, I think, is, Like, what? I'm not doing that. And sends the text. Now, you Know, she could be lying at that point. But I actually don't, I don't think she is because I think it all fits with this idea that her plan was to kind of feed James that hope that either Leslie did something with it or maybe Leslie is the one who makes the claim that Steph Jones is blah, blah, blah, like one way or the other. I think, I think the main intent was to get Leslie to do something. And the Stephanie Jones thing was kind of maybe like a plus that she's like, Hey, if that happens, great. Or that's just the way she thought to get the information just because again, she's pinning it on the one person she doesn't like. Like, if she has to get James to say that someone on Baldoni's side is talking, she's going to pin it on the person she likes least.

0:09:51 Lydia: Yeah okay so under this theory then who has said anything to Daily Mail under this theory that that Sarah would reach out to Melissa and be like there's a statement okay so you think it's like an artificial statement that James is laundering basically okay

0:10:02 Thomas: No one. No, it's still James. Yes. Oh, yeah. I think James has been full of shit, especially because of the thing I pointed out where it's like, first he says three reporters and then he says one with Steph Jones. Like, I think he's just lying. I think that was what he was supposed to say to get Leslie. Because also you look at this, if you look At his texts after a bit of an exchange, he He says with Leslie, can you give me anything at all on what the issue is then if it's not her and it's him? So he's just, he's trying to get her to talk shit on Justin. And before it was totally plausible that he was just doing this for him. Like it could, and it could be like, I guess it could be totally coincidental that he mentioned Steph Jones.

0:10:46 Thomas: It just, it feels not, but it could be, you know, there's a percentage chance, but I think the thing that Melissa didn't count on was Leslie calling Sarah. I think that, I think think that wasn't anywhere near the plan because I also don't think there's any way that Melissa could have either coordinated that or anticipated it necessarily and so then you figure what happens and this is why it all really fits to me when Leslie does that and then Sarah Nathan texts Melissa Nathan kind of panic like hey who talked what really fits for me is her being like no one talked what and then realizing oh shit this thing kind of

0:11:19 Lydia: My plan's starting to unravel a little bit

0:11:19 Thomas: I wouldn't say it backfired yeah but but it's had an effect I didn't intend. And she just sits on it. I think she didn't anticipate this. She's trying to figure out what to do. And then this kind of falls in her lap where Jen says, hey, look at this. And then she just seizes that opportunity to say, oh, she did it. Now it's all making sense. And that's all fucking lies. But the part where she says, I think She Might Have Called a Prisoner DM, she won't tell you. It's like, there's no way she could know that. That's just her. She's crafted the lie that she needs to craft. And in order for it to work, it has to be that stephanie jones would wouldn't say and what I think is particularly messed up and why I'm now on I I think jen is definitely still culpable but melissa nathan is the biggest piece of shit in this because she didn't even have the guts to do this on her own she has to get jen to do it she gets jen because I think I think she's protecting herself by being like well she knows this is a lie she knows that Stephanie Jones didn't really do this and she doesn't want She doesn't want to put her neck on the line to be like, hey, Wayfair, Stephanie Jones did this because she knows it's bullshit. Even if she might get away with it, it's a risk that she's not going to take. So she wants that extra step, that extra bit of distance from it. So, she gets Jen to do it. Yeah.

0:11:52 Lydia: Yeah and that she'll continue to deny it which she will because she didn't yeah and it's not just distance either like like jen is a true believer right that we can see from these text messages so now you have you have distance like you're a step removed you're two two steps removed from the situation. But you also have someone who is presenting the information who is a fierce advocate for that information. It's not someone who's like neutral in the situation, like Jen's going to go to bat and say like, oh my God, did you hear this, right? Like as if it's like 100 % true, like she truly, truly believes this. And that's the exact kind of person you would want to help spread your rumors and your lies.

0:13:11 Thomas: It protects Melissa completely because the word came from Leslie to Sarah Nathan to essentially Jen. And it doesn't really have to go through Melissa at all.

0:13:24 Lydia: Well, Sarah doesn't tell Jen directly.

0:13:26 Thomas: No, but if you're worried about getting caught with something like this and you want distance, she's kind of an invisible step to it. Like because Jen's gonna say maybe Melissa sent screenshots from Leslie or whatever because she said she has screenshots I think because probably Leslie's sending them I guess I don't I don'T know who else would or wait wait

0:13:42 Lydia: A contact of ours at the New York Post, blah, blah. What?

0:13:44 Thomas: A minute wait a minute, wait a minute did she get those from James I didn't even think about that okay, I'm looking at Leslie screenshots she has direct line to DM who has told her what SJ has said

0:13:48 Lydia: I don't know. That's probably the James screenshots. And we're made to think that those are from Leslie. I don't think Leslie's going to share her screenshots.

0:14:07 Thomas: I'm looking at Leslie screenshots

0:14:09 Lydia: I think it has to be. I think it has to be James's. Because this next one, I think I need to talk to Leslie so she knows it's me and

0:14:14 Thomas: Oh yeah she's not talking to Leslie Oh shit. Yeah. What the fuck?

0:14:16 Lydia: SORT A JOINT STORY. Yeah, so. So she has a direct line to DM who is James, who is one of Melissa's like BFFs, basically who then conveniently emails her the next morning those

0:14:27 Thomas: Oh, this is dead to rights. Dead to rights am looking at Leslie screenshots. She has direct line to DM who has told her what SJ said that has to be James because like you said, I think I need to talk to Leslie. That's her. I just assumed that would be such a bold lie that I was like, well, she has to Be getting those from Leslie. But I think that, yeah, I, I I think that she, wow. Yeah, there's no other way. She's directly getting getting that from James. Yeah. This proves the whole thing.

0:14:36 Lydia: Screenshots have to be coming from james to melissa yeah

0:14:59 Thomas: Wow. That's why I've been so fixated on there's so much in this, like in this exchange. And it's just been like this puzzle that I've been trying to figure out.

0:14:58 Lydia: Yeah yeah crazy and it's interesting too because like only so much of this lives in text messages we don't know how much of this live and also we're only seeing the text messages between melissa and jen in this situation

0:15:16 Thomas: Oh yeah. This is such a, yeah, I think it would be a much easier puzzle if we had a lot, like the reason puzzles don't give you all the information. Like, yeah. If we had, like we said, I mean, if we Had James in Melissa, if We, but one thing I asked you, and I don't know if you got a chance to look at was when would Leslie have known that Melissa was was working with

0:15:35 Lydia: So I think it has to be when they They talked about the truce. That's the latest moment that it could have been, right? It was August 8th.

0:15:35 Thomas: Baldoni. Did they actually talk that day? I guess so, right?

0:15:45 Lydia: Yeah, it says at 10 .11 a .m.

0:15:47 Thomas: Can you loop me in with Leslie? Oh yeah, okay.

0:15:50 Lydia: August 8, 10:11 a.m., Nathan and Lively's publicist, Leslie Sloan, reach an agreement whereby neither will communicate directly with a reporter.

0:15:56 Thomas: Oh duh, yeah, sorry, I forgot about that.

0:15:58 Lydia: Yeah, yeah. I know. I had to refresh my memory.

0:16:01 Thomas: So then it's the next day, the email you were talking about that seems to be from James, we think. Morning, I just got this. I'm going to have to speak to him, but I'm just gonna tell him nothing. So that's Melissa pretending, yeah to Leslie Sloan. And she says, happy to chat to you beforehand if you prefer. And Leslie says, let me know how it goes.

0:16:12 Lydia: To Leslie Sloane. Yeah. Mm -hmm.

0:16:19 Thomas: Unbeknownst to Nathan, this was the same reporter with whom Sloan had been communicating the day prior. Nathan confirms that she played no part in the story and tells Sloane, I'm going to, yeah, yeah.

0:16:26 Lydia: Sorry, that's also amazing. Unbeknownst to Nathan, if you saw the screenshots, the Leslie screenshots on August 8rd, which it's knownst, Melissa, it's known yep yeah

0:16:32 Thomas: It's nonced. It's Nonced. She says she had the screenshots, but it was unbeknownst. Sorry, we should be grammatically correct. It's beknownst, it was beknownced.

0:16:44 Lydia: Yeah true it's been known yeah

0:16:48 Thomas: It was not unbeknowst. Wow. Frickin nailed it. Yeah, we've got them. Yeah.

0:16:50 Lydia: Direct lie within their I mean they lie all the time between the documents but this one is like even within the same document

0:16:57 Thomas: I just, my brain knew there was a lot in here and I couldn't stop thinking about all of it. I've done it. I've solved it. I've cracked it. Yeah.

0:17:04 Lydia: I think it's instructive though because like this is the care that you can take with you to other things that are put in front of you piecing it apart and like really putting things side by side and saying does that make sense and evaluating and critiquing things and and just Just what we have learned from this entire experience is that people did not do that. Even if they said they read this stuff, they were not doing that.

0:17:30 Thomas: We can't even get people to read it, let alone be insane like I am and not stop thinking about a thing for like two days or whatever.

0:17:36 Lydia: Yeah, it's been a long time.

0:17:37 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, it's just, I don't think people do this. I don'T think a lot of people do this besides the people, maybe it's their jobs too.

0:17:43 Lydia: But, you know, like the people who are always looking for puzzles to solve and things like that, like the Taylor Swift sort of like mindset where you're always looking for Easter eggs, you're always looking for hidden messages. Take that energy and apply it to media consumption. Apply it to lawsuits. Apply it to all that kind of stuff.

0:18:01 Thomas: Here's what I will say about me. And I think, you know, this, the thing that I do that I'm not saying no one else does, obviously, but that I think is rare is that I'm NOT trying to to get to a conclusion. It's not really any skin off my back if Jones is lying and she did tell the reporter what I don't really care. Like, you know what I mean?

0:18:22 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah.

0:18:22 Thomas: Like, it's I think that there are a lot of people who are really good at the puzzle thing and they use that skill to try to prove the conclusion they want. And I thinkthat's what a lotof the Reddit is. It''s a lot of people are reallygoodat making stupid arguments that involve like these details that they piece together, youknow, in ways that's like, God, I never would have thought of that.

0:18:40 Lydia: But with confirmation bias. Yeah, yeah.

0:18:41 Thomas: Also, it''s stupid. Yeah. What I do, and it's why it sits in my mind so long, is I just, I'm like, I can't get to a conclusion until I'm sure. Or if not, again, it's not a conclusion, but it's like a hypothesis. I'm not going to get to a hypothesis until I feel like it's, like, no, this is the most probable thing. And I never

0:18:59 Lydia: Even if it isn't aligned with.

0:19:01 Thomas: Want to be wrong. Yeah, I never Want to be Wrong. And here's the interesting thing. Oh, the last thing I was going to share from the Jones thing is the message from Sony, which I think is interesting because what happened and I'm not sure how to fit this in so this is on the 8th so it says it's the 8 th but oh wait utc plus zero shit what would that be that's 16 hours that means the next day at 8 I think so the next date at 8 a .m so the 9th at 8 a. m that makes me feel better because I was wondering how this was on the eighth josh greenstein to jen able hi jen been informed you have been speaking to sites about bad blood between Blake and Justin. He was good on today's show slash if a negative story breaks, it would hurt the movie. Josh Greenstein. That's weird because before I think we were willing to go along with Jones's theory from, and this is from Jones V Abel that we got this, that it was Jen, but I don't think it was Jan.

0:19:31 Lydia: Yes that's correct yeah. Mm -hmm.

0:19:57 Thomas: So how did Josh Greensteen decide it was Jenna? I think it might've been maybe Steph.

0:20:03 Lydia: Oh like if Stephanie Jones is like I'm not even involved like they won't even let me be involved so if they're hearing it from the camp it's got to be Jen like that kind of position.

0:20:11 Thomas: Do we think Steph contacted Sony when Jamie said, don't, you know, don't clear your name.

0:20:16 Lydia: I don't I don't know, I don't know that she did.

0:20:18 Thomas: I thought she did. I'm pretty sure she did well.

0:20:21 Lydia: God I can't recall but yeah you listened to it more recently than I did

0:20:24 Thomas: No, we don't we don' know from from that. No another thing I didn't remember that's interesting is for the millionth time the quote someone named Stephanie Jones There's also another thing that in Jones v. Abel we didn't get a screenshot of or anything But there's a paragraph that says Heath went a step further and threatened Jones Directly that he would issue a public press release stating that Baldonian Wayfarer had terminated Jones works if she took any steps to contact Sony or others to clear her name menacingly reminding her that she didn't need that kind of negative publicity for herself or her business.

0:20:26 Lydia: Oh we don't

0:20:54 Thomas: But I think we know from something else, and I don't remember what, that I'm pretty sure she was just like, uh, no, I'm going to do what I want. Remember?

0:20:53 Lydia: Oh wow

0:21:02 Thomas: Like, I don't know what that was from.

0:21:02 Lydia: Yeah yeah I'm trying to see I think it might be in okay yeah so it's in the motion to dismiss wayfarers counter complaint from stephanie jones nevertheless falsely accused and seeking to quash the perpetuation of a false narrative jones naturally contacted sony to inform them that she did not do so

0:21:21 Thomas: Josh Greenstein, been informed you have been speaking to sites about bad blood between Blake and Justin. It has to be Steph Jones. I think that's the only person who would have told him that. Because if it was Leslie, Leslie thinks Stephanie Jones did it. Yeah, that we know unless like Stephanie and Leslie back-channeled or something which is like not impossible I guess if we read the paragraph before that in Jones v Abel it says for example following the premiere of the film the Daily Mail published an article reporting on tensions between Baldoni and lively that article relied exclusively on social media posts that had been identified for Abel earlier that same day either a shocking coincidence or confirmation that Abel had planted the story and this is that dual objectives thing that I referenced on information believe Abel and Nathan Nathan conspired to plant the story in the Daily Mail in pursuit of dual objectives. First, the negative story cemented Baldoni's need for Nathan's crisis management services, ensuring herself an ongoing paycheck. Second, they arranged for Baldoni and Wayfair to believe that Jones was the cited insider and also to create a false story that Jones had publicly blamed Lively for the article, thus sowing discord between Baldoni и Wayfier on the one hand, Jones on the other.

0:21:38 Lydia: She doesn't she's not even thinking about jen abel yeah

0:22:30 Thomas: And that just says when the article the scheme worked, when the articles published at first, key players in the film's release, including Josh Greenstein, the president of Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group, believed, parentheses, correctly, that Abel was the person responsible for the story. Oh, so maybe it isn't even... Oh, yeah, because there's... Oh, wait, yeah. Because the story isn't published yet. The one that's the James Vitushka one. Although, wait. Was that first one James Vitoshka?

0:22:53 Lydia: This one is the Lillian Gesson

0:22:56 Thomas: Lillian Gesson. And then the next day, August 9th, pretty early, 9:52 a.m. Pacific, James Vitushka and Lillian Gesson. Oh, it's Lillia both times. Oh, so she published the first one. Interesting. So I guess we don't, we still don't know why Josh Greenstein said that, but it might just be that article did come out. Does that article cite sources? Let me see.

0:23:19 Thomas: Yeah, there's nothing in that one because it says DailyMail.com has contacted representatives for Justin Blake and the movie's production company, Wayfair Studios, but that's all it says.

0:23:18 Lydia: I don't see anything yeah it's it's mostly just about people tweeting and yeah

0:23:29 Thomas: It's those social media posts. So then what? Yeah. So we can't solve that puzzle right now. It could have been Steph, but then the next paragraph says, but Abel denied being the the source and instead falsely told Sony's communications team that Jones was the leak. This false allegation stuck. Rumors that Jones is behind the article began to make their way back to Wayfair, causing Heath to respond with hostility. And that's when we have that I'm hearing from Sony that quote. Oh, that's quick. Huh?

0:23:50 Lydia: Which looks like it's 16 minutes after josh greenstein has emailed jen able

0:23:57 Thomas: Well, OK. I mean, it makes sense that Jen would have very quickly been like, hey, no, it's actually Jones. But then why does Steph Jones say I just don't believe I also don't blame Danny or Kim and Sony are saying that above. That also would feel then like Steph Jones didn't talk to Josh Greenstein, right? Like I think the Josh Greenstein thing might just be from, well, okay. Josh sends that. We can assume that Jen said, it was Steph Jones. And then minutes later, as you say, Jamie Heath says, I'm hearing from Sony that quote, someone named Stephanie Jones has responded.

0:24:28 Lydia: Yeah I I feel like that's a lie, and that's just Jen Abel running to jamie heath and saying hey I think stephanie jones

0:24:31 Thomas: It's definitely a lie. Oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Yeah. Hold on. Okay. This is interesting. This was interesting because this This is Jones and Jones v. Abel playing a little bit fast and loose. A little bit, because I think we are to believe, well, you and I believe that that is a lie because it seems like an obvious lie. So I feel like we're to believe that Steph Jones believes that's a lie, right? That there wasn't actually Sony, anyone at Sony that said that? Someone named Stephanie Jones? That seems like bullshit. So if that's true, the complaint says this false allegation stuck rumors that Jones was behind the article began to make their way back to Wayfair. Well, actually, no, that's not true. You know what I mean? Like if Jones thinks that's bullshit, she can't also say it worked that Abel denied being the source and falsely told Sony's communications team that Jones was the leak because she doesn't believe that Sony actually believed that. We don't know why Josh thinks it's Jen. Been informed, he says. So that, I mean, that's more than just saying, hey, kind of seems like you're talking, you know what I mean?

0:25:37 Thomas: Like that's pretty specific. So could be Steph.

0:25:37 Lydia: Yeah I think also because that piece doesn't say inside sources or anything like that I think it definitely means that something real is coming to him somebody definitely told him something and it's not just that he saw a piece and he's concerned

0:25:55 Thomas: Right, right. Yeah. That's further evidence of that. Been informed is pretty specific. So I think somebody said, somebody told. Now, doesn't really make sense that it would be Leslie unless Leslie is seeing through the Steph Jones bullshit lie and doing that math. Okay. So the flow of information is potentially Steph Jones told Josh Greenstein, maybe, potentially. One way or the other, Josh Greensteen says, been informed you've been speaking to sites. And then it says, but Abel denied being the source and instead falsely told Sony's communications team that Jones was leaked. That is believable. It makes sense that she'd be like, like, nuh -uh, it's Steph Jones. But if we are to believe that the part where Jamie says, I'm hearing from Sony that Steph Jones did it is fake, then that didn't work possibly. Like it didn't work for Jen to say, no, it was Steph Jones, one of those things can't be true. You know what I mean?

0:25:59 Lydia: I I think I'm just, I think that like paragraph 70 is not necessarily true because it doesn't have have to be true at Jones v. Abel well

0:26:49 Thomas: Well, I think paragraph 70, are you looking, you're looking at Jones v. Abel? Yeah, that's definitely true. Abl denied being the source and instead falsely told Sony. That I believe. 71 is the thing. What?

0:26:56 Lydia: I well I don't know okay no because I don t know that jen abel would bother telling sony's communications team because that would be the danny and kim she got the message from josh greenstein then she would have to then go talk to danny and kim who I think are the communications people and I don't think she would've bothered. I think she just ran to Jamie. That's my guess.

0:27:05 Thomas: Oh, it told, you point out an important thing, which is that the communications team is not josh greenstein that is a good reminder so why would that be who abel told okay so from wayfair counter complaint we get sloan and sony learned that quote someone from baldoni's team had been communicating negatively to media and that's a quote and this is from Wayfair so that is a far cry from someone named Stephanie jones which is that part's obviously a lie. So then in Jones's reply to that, motion to dismiss that, I guess, it says Wayfair and Baldoni told Jones to stand down while Abel and Nathan falsely informed Sony and Leslie Sloan that Jones had leaked information and was, quote, communicating negatively to media, which is the same quote.

0:28:05 Thomas: Again, quote someone from Baldoni's team had been communicating negatively. So that's Jones saying directly with the same quote, essentially, that Abel and Nathan informed Sony and Leslie Sloan. If we've got a quote, and this is again from Wayfair later, quote, someone from Baldoni's team had been communicating negatively to media. But what's interesting is Leslie already was given the indication from James that it's Stephanie Jones.

0:28:32 Thomas: I wonder if Leslie Sloane didn't go for that exactly and communicate to Sony someone from the team is talking.

0:28:32 Lydia: Mmhm

0:28:39 Thomas: And then we don't know the timing of, God, why does Josh say it was Jen? The contradiction that I'm having trouble with is if we think it's bullshit that Sony said, you know, Danny or Kim at Sony said someone named Steph Jones, and yet Jones is also saying that Abel did tell Sony's communication teams that Jones was a leak. And if Jones does say rumors that Jones is behind the article begin to make their way back to Wayfair causing Heath to respond, that's kind of a contradiction, you know. But what if the only lie is the someone named Stephanie Jones?

0:28:39 Lydia: Right mmhm mmhmm mmhm Yeah.

0:29:12 Thomas: So it's actually that Sony has said, hey, someone's leaking.

0:29:16 Lydia: From your team. Yeah.

0:29:17 Thomas: Yeah. And Jamie assumes or is kind of going with the Jen Abel, Melissa Nathan line or information or intel. Yeah, that it's Stephanie Jones. And that's why he's it's both like kind of true. But then he's still like, well, don't check because because they didn't say someone named Stephanie Jones, that's stupid.

0:29:23 Lydia: Framing. Yeah. Mm -hmm.

0:29:34 Thomas: They just said someone on your team and he's lying about that part. Maybe that makes it all reconcile. And it's hard because we don't have the timing on, on this. So I don't, I still don't know why Josh said that. Cause that was definitely before the email, right? Before the, sorry, before the Jamie Heath thing.

0:29:50 Lydia: It was 16 minutes before Jamie's email.

0:29:59 Ad: [Ad break 2 — ad music]

0:29:59 Thomas: Okay. So that was where we left that recording. We spiraled off and we couldn't figure out how the information got to Sony and that whole thing. And we just kind of argued about it for a while and I cut most of that. So then when I edited that, I have a few more observations. I wouldn't say like aha moments so much as like further confusion.

0:30:22 Lydia: I have one observation that's just kind of

0:30:24 Thomas: And why don't you start? You go.

0:30:24 Lydia: In general. Yeah. So my initial observation, I think, is that the events of August 8th and 9th demonstrate the dangers of gossip. Not just as, like, as a person, but as a business. There were so many times where it was like, well, she said she heard from, you know, sources that she's not disclosed and he said and blah, blah, bla. And then that being relayed over and over, like you said, is a game of telephone and how damaging that is. It ended up hurting people. Ultimately, James Fetushka got fired as a result of some of this stuff. I think it's it can be really, really gross. And it hurt us because we got lost in the maze of it all.

0:31:04 Thomas: We had to try to do it. Yeah, it really is like my whole philosophy is just like tell the truth at all times to the best of your ability for the most part. I mean, obviously you don't always say every single thing you're thinking, but like, I really think that comes from ADHD. Like I just can't remember stuff. Like it's the Mark Twain quote that I always go to that is like tell the truth and then you know I don't even see I can't remember what the fuck that is but I can truthfully represent it's something like yeah it it would have been really nice if I could remember it's telling the truth because

0:31:31 Lydia: It's something good. It's something good that we should all do.

0:31:39 Lydia: You'll never have to remember it. Yeah, yeah.

0:31:39 Thomas: You don't yeah exactly you don't have to like remember all the lies and I truly can't remember lies like it's too impossible so I just try to pretty much tell the true truth all the time and I get like the nature of this business that they're in is a little, yeah, I don't think you can possibly be an honest person and really, and get into it.

0:31:53 Lydia: Seedy? No, but I think they all made really bad mistakes, at least, like, yeah, and then also trying to trust what another person is telling you when they know this is the business they're in. Like, I don't know how you would trust anything anyone's saying to you ever if you're in PR or in, like, tabloid magazines. And I think this is very demonstrative of that situation. But, yeah, man.

0:32:01 Thomas: Yeah. There's different levels of lying. Yeah, yeah. So first big thing I want to fix is I remember we had, we had sort of discussed like, wait a minute, remember the whole, like 10 minutes, not even 10 minutes later, James Vitushka. And this was from the exhibit, the big giant exhibit we're on. That's the thing we're allegedly currently on the timeline. And it was like, not even 10 minutes later, James Vitushka talked to Leslie and she never even disclosed that to Melissa kind of thing. I was thinking about that. And we had sort of speculated like, huh, that's curious timing. Maybe, maybe Melissa put him up to that, like literally to test her in that moment. So then I was thinking through it. And then I realized that I got caught in a loop. I was like trying to track down, wait, when did Leslie and Melissa talk? And I was like oh yeah, Leslie and Melissa first talked as a result of this crisis that was already happening. And then I was like, wait, why did the crisis start happening? And I was like, wait, the crisis started happening because James Vitushka told Leslie that a reporter maybe connected to Stephanie Jones said stuff. I was like, how did I loop back in time?

0:32:33 Lydia: The timeline. Yeah. Yeah. Mm -huh. Mm -hm.

0:33:17 Thomas: Well, it turns out, I could almost believe this was an honest mistake, because this shit's so confusing. They made a mistake with the time zones.

0:33:19 Lydia: Mm -hum. Mm -mm. Right.

0:33:26 Thomas: And so they said, Hey, not 10 minutes later, James Vitushka, blah, blah. But that was East Coast time. So it was actually three hours before four, 10 minutes later. And so that was the event.

0:33:37 Lydia: The order of operations was messed up.

0:33:37 Thomas: That's actually really important. The order of what happened first, that morning, very early, because I think James Vitushka is probably on the East Coast, a very early message to Leslie was what started this all.

0:33:48 Thomas: From James to Leslie, August 8th, 10:29 a.m., but that's 7:29 a.m. Pacific time, when James said, have to talk about some stuff that came in from reporters, Reed Blake and her new movie drama. And that's, we already already discussed where he said it's cold from three reporters and that seemed iffy. And then it was like, and one of them is known to be close with Steph Jones.

0:34:09 Lydia: -ham.

0:34:09 Thomas: Now you just heard us have an aha moment that I think still stands, which is that Melissa mysteriously had screenshots from Leslie.

0:34:16 Lydia: Mm -hem.

0:34:17 Thomas: That's crazy. That proves that like beyond a shadow of a doubt that she is speaking to James Vitushka that day. Yeah. Like about the conversation way before she should have even known to do that.

0:34:24 Lydia: About his conversation. Mm -heim. Mm -ha. Mm -hmm.

0:34:31 Thomas: Because, again, this started on her end, if we just took like her story for granted, which we shouldn't, but we can kind of. From the standpoint of Melissa not having sneakily perpetrated any of this, what would it look like to her? So at a certain time, Sarah Nathan, her sister, says, what the fuck are you doing?

0:34:49 Lydia: Mm -hm.

0:34:50 Thomas: You call Daily Mail. That's when Melissa and Nathan, again, we've been through this, but again, we have to go through this a thousand times and it's still confusing. Melissa's like, nope, haven't done that. My only request for comment. That was when Thomas was totally right about what that said, when it was blurry.

0:35:04 Lydia: Mmh -hm -hmh.

0:35:04 Thomas: Lydia was wrong. Just covering that again.

0:35:07 Lydia: Mmhm.

0:35:08 Thomas: Melissa hears from Sarah that Leslie says that Daily Mail has heard from Justin's camp. Now, I guess the best case story for Melissa would be that when she allegedly, you know, finds out that Steph Jones might have talked to Daily Mail, she then thinks, I'd better text my friend James Fetushka to see what's happening at Daily Mail. And at that point, he would be like, oh, that's me. I'm doing that, I guess. And then he would send her screenshots. Wait a minute. Wait a moment. Oh, possibly just realized something. This is funny, but I don't know know if they would have realized this maybe if yeah, this is Melissa has to be full of shit on some level. Cause I'm trying to, again, I'm try to do like, what's the most innocent explanation for Melissa with the facts we have, you know, and just see like, cause that's like the, that's like the most we can say for certain, however guilty she is would be the least guilty we can prove. You know what I mean? Like we can speculate that she's more guilty, but like the baseline level of to be fair to her would be like, What's the Most Innocent Explanation Consistent with the facts would be like to be fair to her, you know, and it might not be right, but like being maximally fair. So being maximally fare, she could have just said, oh, I'm going to text my friend James a daily mail. Like it could have been not that she like had pre -coordinated with James or any of that. That's more like speculation that we don't fully have like hard evidence for ahead of

0:36:36 Thomas: Time, like that she would have coordinated ahead of time. She could have said, all right, daily mail. Maybe I'll ask my friend James a Daily Mail. He's a source. He is a friend. What's going on here. Now, at that point, if she's looking at Leslie's screenshots, we know 100%, like 99 .8%, that has to be the screenshots of James and Leslie. There's no other way, right? Like there just has to and so if she saw that, what she would see is that James just said it's from three reporters called and one of them has connections to Steph Jones, but she would have seen that that was this morning before Stephanie Jones said, oh, just left word for Daily Mail, which was was allegedly the thing that set off the suspicion of Stephanie Jones. Does that make sense?

0:37:17 Lydia: I think so?

0:37:19 Thomas: It makes, sorry, did I explain that right? It does make sense. I have it in my head, but I just want to make sure it came out. Okay, let me take it through again. On this day, we know the first thing that happened on this day. The first thing that's part of this is early in the morning, James contacting Leslie Sloan, right? And we've already gone over that a million times, but essentially that's, and the only proof that it was Steph Jones was him saying, first off, he doesn't say that at all. He just says like, oh, it's three reporters. Then later he says, oh one is close with Steph Jones, right?

0:37:35 Lydia: 7ish a.m. Right, right.

0:37:49 Thomas: So then that sets off allegedly the chain of events where Leslie calls Sarah Nathan and then Sarah Nathan texts Melissa Nathan says, hey, why is Justin's camp, i.e. you called Daily Mail? What the fuck are you doing?

0:38:04 Lydia: Right?

0:38:05 Thomas: And we can go down to that because I think that's one we haven't gone through a bunch. Like we've, we've reread everything, but I don't think we've have reread this that many times. So let's go through this. Just it's, it should be pretty quick and we have better versions. We can actually see now. I think Melissa says, excuse me. No, I have not the only request for comment. And she, she forwards the email to Sarah Nathan, essentially saying like, I didn't talk. Sarah Nathan says, literally just heard from Leslie to say, we need to put up our story. And he says, I don't know. I don' know. And I'm like, she said, put your story up. DM as in daily mail has heard back from Justin's camp, blaming Blake. So pass on whatever you need me to put in and I'll put in.

0:38:38 Thomas: Melissa says what? Three question question marks. Sarah Nathan says, yes. Melissa says, nope, this is it above. Sarah Nathan says V weird. That was another one that I thought was blurry. I was like, I think it says V Weird. I don't remember if that was made into the show. So at this time, we only have these really hard to read screenshots where Melissa Nathan is forwarding to Jen her conversation that Melissa is having with Sarah.

0:38:38 Lydia: Mmhm, mmhm, mhm. Right Right.

0:39:02 Thomas: And it's the, what are you doing? You know, WTF are youdoing? She's ruined our strategy in one fell swoop. Blank was fucking holding. I think that means Sarah or New York Post or something, right? NYP probably.

0:39:12 Lydia: And I bet I bet you it's Sarah.

0:39:14 Thomas: Yeah, but she was doing it for New York Post, right. So it could be NYP or Sarah one way or the other. I'm so fucking pissed, Jen. Jen says, I just told Jamie. Melissa says, yep, I saw Leslie message. Okay. So that's actually the first place where, I mean, she doesn't say like screenshots, but I think we can assume probably, right, unfortunately we don't have timestamps on this, but to get back to the realization at the very least, by the time Melissa says I'm looking at at Leslie screenshots. And I already did point this out that Melissa for sure launders the idea a bit when she says, okay, I'm looking at Leslie's screenshots. She has direct line to DM who has told her what SJ has said, because we know that isn't what happened.

0:39:52 Thomas: What happened was James said, oh, well, one of the reporters might be connected to Steph Jones. And so at that moment, when Melissa has those screenshots, even if we're trying to like do the most innocent Melissa explanation, which is that she just like after the fact contacted James to see what was up at that moment, she would have seen, oh, wait, this is just from James saying, oh one of them is connected to Steph Jones. And that conversation took place before the screenshot that she got sent where it was like Steph Jones saying left word, you know.

0:40:25 Thomas: That is the thing that they're saying, like that's the proof to them that Steph Jones talked to a reporter. But that couldn't have happened before, you know what I mean? Because for one also think about this, Melissa is talking to James names and the reporter they're talking about is Lillian.

0:40:42 Lydia: Can you refresh my memory? Why have we? Why are we certain it's not screenshots from Sarah? Do you remember why?

0:40:48 Thomas: For one, I do not think it's likely that Leslie would send screenshots of her conversation with a reporter to another reporter. I don't think she would do that. She would want to be like more coy about her sources. You know, I don'T think she's going to like reveal conversation. That would just be like, because if she sends those screenshots to Sarah, that tells Sarah that she doesn't have that trust and could screenshot her stuff. It's notable that Melissa will send screenshots all day of her conversation with Sarah, where she's saying she said it's Stephanie, you know, kind of thing. But when it's screenshots of the Leslie messages, all of a sudden she's not going to send those.

0:41:21 Lydia: Yeah, that's a good point. Okay, so that that is definitely a point for that's coming from somebody else.

0:41:24 Thomas: Isn't that interesting? Yeah. And I think adding to that were the screenshots before. So I think, I guess it's not like a hundred percent proven based on this information, but it seems very, very, very unlikely because she's already sending all kinds of screenshots of Melissa's conversation with Sarah Nathan, where Sarah is just saying, Leslie told me this.

0:41:42 Thomas: And so it would be weird if she was like willing to send those screenshots when it's just Sarah saying Leslie said it. But then if Sarah sent actual screenshots of Leslie's conversation, all of a sudden she wouldn't send those to Jen. I think she's not sending them because it would reveal that she's talking to James about it. I don't think she's supposed to know. I DON'T THINK SHE'S SUPPOSED TO BE TALKING TO JAMES ABOUT IT AT THIS POINT.

0:42:05 Thomas: And so that feels pretty dishonest. So did that make clear the point I was making about if Melissa is looking at text screenshots from Leslie to to James. All that tells Melissa is that James gave the indication this very morning. Whoever talked to this reporter did so before this morning because the text is the first thing this morning and it's like, hey, we already have information.

0:42:27 Lydia: Mm hm? We're calling calling for comment right right

0:42:29 Thomas: I think it's proof that Melissa is being deceptive that she says she's looking at the screenshots. We already know that means she has to be talking to James, like it's the most likely explanation. And she represents that as she has direct line to DM who has told her what SJ has said, because that's not even close to what was actually represented. So at the very least, we can say the least amount of culpable based on the evidence would be she's willing to just kind of, once she had her sights set on Stephanie, just like go with that and gloss over the fact that there really isn't actually any proof of that, especially because again, the whole message that started this allegedly is Stephanie just literally saying, oh, I'll leave word and clear this up.

0:43:06 Thomas: It just doesn't make any sense. Like none of that makes Yeah,

0:43:09 Lydia: Yeah like the only motivation Stephanie would have if she were the one that planted that and then also said like let me take care of this and kill it is that she's trying to prove that she deserves to continue to be the PR person or something I like I it doesn't make any sense and at that point in time there was no indication from Wayfair that they were leaving at that moment right so I don't know that that That feels like that would be a really insecure thing to do, which isn't impossible, but unlikely.

0:43:25 Thomas: It doesn't make sense. Yeah, I think it's virtually impossible. Yeah. I just think there's no chance. It doesn't make any sense from, never has that theory made any sense. And very shortly after that, by the way, I think we can say it's, yeah, we can it's directly after she has said she has the screenshots. Jen says, I told Jamie, had the head of Sony call me. Can you loop me in with Leslie? Is she on a plane? I can text her too.

0:44:01 Thomas: We were about to take off, et cetera, et cetera. Right after that is when Melissa says, yes, absolutely. I that I'm not crazy and that, you know, what happened here in your heart and reality, you know it, correct? And that almost like, now that I look at that, maybe she does kind of register when she looked at those screenshots, if that's indeed when she first saw them, they're like, oh wait, this connection isn't very good. Like this, this like evidence that it was Stephanie is not great. And she's, and she's like desperately needing that to be true. Now here's the thing that I was going to bring up. I actually, in my heart of hearts, considering all this evidence, I still I still don't know how guilty Melissa is because what is the most weird, and this was something I was going to bring up last recording or maybe it was right after, this little screenshot we get of Melissa with Sarah Nathan.

0:44:47 Thomas: Sarah says, also not sure when we are putting this up. We only get this one little screenshot from Melissa and Jen's conversation. Melissa says, there is no way we will do a big story with DM. No one even knows we have him. Sarah Sarah says she said Stephanie. So maybe Stephanie is involved. Melissa says she's not. I can't I can'T get that out of my head, because if this was some super secret plot of Melissa coordinating with James to frame Stephanie, I I find it hard to believe that she's going to have the ability of lying to make it like even more convincing by kind of not accepting it at first, because because if Sarah says she said, Stephanie, so maybe Stephanie I feel like at the very least, Melissa would be like, oh, okay. You know, like if she wants that to be what it is, it's

0:44:58 Lydia: Mm -hum. Right. Right. Right. Yeah.

0:45:36 Thomas: Pretty hardcore for her to be like she's not. Right.

0:45:39 Lydia: Well, especially how she's handling it with Jen, too.

0:45:42 Thomas: I can't get over that because it just it feels it feels hard to believe that Melissa point blank quick reaction text when Sarah says maybe Stephanie is involved. Melissa says she's not. And the reason she says she's not is because like they've cut Steph Jones out of this relationship. Like they've already started to cut Steph zones out of the circle. Cause they're trying to make it. So Jen just has the account.

0:46:06 Lydia: Could it be, could, like, man, okay, I'm trying to find, like all the holes potentially. Could

0:46:18 Thomas: It is. Uh, it is before.

0:46:19 Lydia: That conversation with sarah have happened before she got this um damn I wanted to tell you something funny it is before okay so we

0:46:20 Thomas: Yeah. And that's the thing that essentially changes her mind. Yeah, I just think if the whole plan from Melissa, which I think was plausible, especially based on the screenshots thing,

0:46:22 Lydia: Know makes her think that yeah that it's okay all right all right all right was to frame stephanie

0:46:30 Thomas: Like I was kind of, yeah, like, I was kinda thinking like, oh man, if the hole plan was to frame Stephanie, I don't think she would have said she's not what makes more sense to me is that it kind of fell into her lap and she was willing to just go with it sure Stephanie did what yep

0:46:48 Lydia: So then okay this is speculative so feel free to not go down this road with me we don't think stephany did it talking to the daily mail we don't think that melissa framed stephani from the beginning like you know maybe leaning into it after the fact, but not from the beginning. Then, then what? Then who?

0:46:53 Thomas: Uh doesn't seem like it yeah it doesn't seemed like it. Yeah yeah and what I think I said in this recording that we just played is like the it's

0:47:05 Lydia: I don't think Jen Abel's smart enough to do this. Yeah.

0:47:07 Thomas: Not Jen Abel if there's no way it's Jen Able it either has to be a hell of a coincidence with Vitushka just saying like one of the reporters is close to Stephanie Jones as a way of like trying to get more credibility yeah I just don't I can't think of anything that makes sense with it and it seems so specific that James said that like that seemed I would have said without this one part I think without this one thing where Melissa says she's not when she says maybe Stephanie is involved I just noticed later on Jen says she needs help to kill that NYP all capital story that might make me think that there might be NYP above because they're both kind of, yeah, maybe. Without that, she's not. I would have said, look, the fact that James emphasized the Steph Jones thing, the act that Melissa said she has screenshots that she shouldn't have, I would've said, okay, this is definitely

0:47:19 Lydia: To get information. Mm hmm. Mm hm. Mm hum. Okay. Mm hum.

0:48:01 Thomas: Melissa doing this. But I just don't know. She's not, it's just, that's a hell of a lot. That's like a hell sort of a double bluff lie thing. And also that's to Sarah. She doesn't even really need, if she was going to try to do a more convincing, like, hmm, I'm skeptical, you know, to like really be deviously planting a lie. I don't think she would be doing that with Sarah. Cause it doesn't really matter.

0:48:26 Thomas: It more matters that Jen or maybe like Jen or like Wayfarer maybe would be where like that that's where it would more matter that Melissa's hands are clean in this.

0:48:35 Lydia: Yeah I think so.

0:48:35 Thomas: Right, man. It's just crazy. I, so I, part of me thinks, yeah, part of me things, this all could have been a misunderstanding.

0:48:36 Lydia: I don' know. Yeah so we don't have answers. Yeah

0:48:43 Thomas: Like it really really could have been.

0:48:44 Lydia: Don't Don't gossip, folks.

0:48:45 Thomas: Yeah.

0:48:54 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:48:54 Thomas: Well, here's the thing, folks. We have to do another time travel because

0:48:58 Lydia: Just call me Doc Brown.

0:48:58 Thomas: I already do.

0:49:02 Lydia: Get in my DeLorean.

0:49:03 Thomas: And another thing that explains why it's taken so long for us to get this out is that we continue to have more things to say about this and we continue to go over it. And it's also, this is not for the faint of heart. This stuff is so hard to follow and it's so hard. Like we really spent so much time trying to track it down. I hope that we've You've done an okay job of helping you understand it just as listeners, but it's tough, man.

0:49:25 Thomas: Like we're, we can barely follow it looking at the stuff because it's so convoluted, but like, there's just some really important things here. And we've got one more episode. We're coming to you from the future, of course. One more episode on this that is in light of like some stuff that has now been newly unredacted. So we got some more information there and we think we've been able to come to a few conclusions, but you're going to hear that process come along with us as we bang our our heads against the wall and I edit most of that out so one more episode on these texts famous last words and then we'll be on our merry way to the rest of the complaint but that's uh that's next time thanks so much for listening everybody and as usual patreon .com slash gavel pod if you want to be the first to hear stuff like this and get stuff early and avoid the ads barely committing to it so then I just have to say uh what's his name's lines michael yeah Michael J. Fox boxes lines oh this is heavy that's it that's all I get to say you get all the cool

0:50:05 Lydia: Great Scott. 1.21 chickalots. Marty? Yeah, Marty McFly. Yeah. Yeah.

0:50:33 Lydia: Well, you say, like, I'm not a chicken or whatever. What do you know? You don't

0:50:34 Thomas: Stuff I'm not a chicken No sir, I am not a chicken yeah yeah yeah all right folks we'll see you next time

0:50:43 Lydia: Know it now but your kids are gonna love it yes are you serious oh august

0:51:11 Thomas: Oh well my chair just like broke my chair like the arm of my chair liked it and I'm like oh my god cracked you know so now it's scratching me darn anyway it's nonced it's not tell

0:51:21 Lydia: 8th which you it's knownst melissa it's

0:51:26 Thomas: The truth and And then, you know, I don't even see, I can't remember what the fuck that is, but I can truthfully represent something like, yeah.

0:51:32 Lydia: Knownst it's something good