DOD239: Fake It Till You Make It

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad, that's my thing I know now what I can offer you that no one else can Complete and under-dependent I'm a man, I'm sensitive I need to feel loved, I need part of being a father that I enjoy

0:00:29 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast where we all liked Breakfast at Tiffany's. I'm Tom Curry. I am joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:47 Thomas: What about breakfast at Tiffany's?

0:00:49 Tom: Wait, is that a problematic movie now?

0:00:49 Eli: Yeah.

0:00:52 Tom: I don't remember the movie well enough to know that it was problematic. I mean, I'm referring, obviously, to the song, but like, yeah,

0:00:54 Thomas: Mickey R -

0:00:58 Eli: I know you are. I, this is very important to me. I hate to do like a tech call mid -show, especially because it's already difficult for Thomas to do tech today. I would like us collectively, I would like someone to go on YouTube and type in Mickey Rooney breakfast at Tiffany's. And then I would like our audience to hear that clip as well as us reacting to that clip. It's spiritually important to me I

0:01:23 Tom: I bet it's fine. I bet. It's totally totally cashmere. Oh, no, I think I remember this scene. No.

0:01:29 Thomas: I'm not even gonna do that, just in case. I know what you're talking about, Eli. It's, uh...

0:01:33 Tom: Yeah Yikes Well, I like large parts of breakfast at Tiffany's I

0:01:34 Eli: Man yeah

0:01:39 Thomas: I like still images of Audrey Hepburn.

0:01:44 Eli: Toast

0:01:45 Tom: Like the juice and eggs. I like the juice and eggs. The toast is a problem though I will say the toast the toast is the problem. Not so good. Ooh Yeah

0:01:48 Eli: Is delicious yeah absolutely honestly just to watch tom maybe this is our patron bonus is we're just gonna watch the four minutes of compiled mickey rooney as mr you know

0:02:02 Tom: Yeah. Yeah, that's not good. That's immediately not good It pulled up on YouTube and I was like, oh, yeah,

0:02:10 Eli: She's yeah that thumbnail does a lot of the work for you

0:02:12 Thomas: Yeah, just an image, it's fine. Yeah.

0:02:13 Tom: I don't need a whole lot more than that. Not great.

0:02:15 Thomas: I was too distracted by audio issues. Where did this come from? How's this the topic? Today's topic, yellow face.

0:02:20 Eli: Yeah I'd love to follow follow this trail. Yeah.

0:02:23 Tom: The lead -in was the podcast where we all like Breakfast at Tiffany's. It's the one thing we've got We're going to talk about things we have in common with our kids A little free association. It was working, it was working

0:02:28 Eli: It was all coming together. Yeah, but do you know the only way worse to introduce the things we have in common with our children than one of the most infamously racist performances ever captured to celluloid? Why, it's the auto ads.

0:02:48 Tom: Whoops Oops.

0:02:48 Eli: Yes, the auto ads. The Democratic Party of your podcasting experience. They're supposed to be doing something good for someone but they don't but you can make them go away by shooting your senator or by going to patreon .com forward slash dear old dads well you'll get a commercial free version of every single show you get bonus episodes there we got a monthly bonus episode behind the scenes extras chances to participate in our amas all sorts of good stuff but more importantly you get no commercials all of it for as little as a buck over at patreon .com forward slash dear old dance like mickey rooney into his legacy rip into it yeah

0:03:36 Ad: [Ad break 1 — ad music]

0:03:38 Thomas: That's a tough one, too. It's not like, oh, I did an obscure film in my youth before, you know, there's an indie film. Nobody's ever heard of it. And it was it was kind of bad. It's like that's like an iconic.

0:03:49 Eli: This is not his brown bunny

0:03:49 Thomas: You're not getting away from that one. I don't know what that is, but I imagine it's a great reference.

0:03:53 Tom: Don't know what that means either, but I feel like that's not going to be good.

0:03:55 Eli: Wow here's the great thing all of the perverts in our audience are like I also don't know what that is in a machill and cool cash money guy I have no idea what he was referencing

0:04:05 Thomas: The only thing I can think of is I swear Julia Roberts did nudity before she was big and then try to get rid of that film. That's all. It's my only guess. No. What is, what is that? Who's that?

0:04:12 Eli: Oh that's chloe savigny's like early independent film you'd recognize her if you saw her she's been in a million stuff she's a brilliant actress but she gave an actual blow job in that movie yeah and because society is super sexist we were like uh -oh that's gonna hurt your career and she was like actually I don't care what you think at all and we were Like all right you get to be a movie star what's amazing is when people try to bring that up as a gotcha for her like they expect me to be like well it's funny you did discover that I am in fact a fainting victorian this whole time so

0:04:20 Tom: Bet I wouldn't. I I do think it's a fucking weird directorial choice, though, for like a movie that is not intended to be like, why do that?

0:04:52 Eli: Oh you think hey tom would it help if I told you that the director of the movie is the person she gives the blowjob to right

0:04:59 Tom: What? Oh, my God. Yeah. Fucking shock of shocks. All right. So here's the scene. Shouldn't there be cameras here in the scene oh yeah okay uh somebody say cut or whatever how do you start it get the little clippy thing out That should be somebody else in the room fucking yikes all right so we've got an email let's uh let's talk about an email it's an email from chris hi dads long time listener and supporter of all your shows thank you chris but first time writing in are

0:05:08 Eli: Fuck cameras damn it oh god I'm in a porn in case anyone's wondering just so you know I'm out there I am

0:05:31 Tom: You though wait what wait a minute oh

0:05:33 Eli: I'm wearing clothes but I'm into porn I've told you about this

0:05:35 Tom: I don't think so I don'T listen to a lot of the things you say no wait a minute fuck chris's email hold on you're in a porn

0:05:36 Thomas: I don't, I don'T know what you're talking about. No, yeah.

0:05:37 Eli: You guys don't know that? I have absolutely told this story on air. Yes, I am in Evening at the Eagle. Yes.

0:05:46 Tom: Evening at the Eagle

0:05:46 Thomas: It has a title. Wow. Quaint.

0:05:49 Eli: So there was an S&M club.

0:05:49 Tom: Is this on vhs or something is this like in the back room of a blockbuster that's no longer in business somewhere

0:05:54 Eli: Yeah, actually, you're pretty close, Tom. So there is a, it still exists, a famous hardcore hookup club in the village called The Eagle. They had a S &Ms sex club associated with it, which shot a porn in there. And I worked the front desk of The Eagle when they shot that for mm -hmm yep I

0:06:15 Thomas: Tell

0:06:12 Tom: You were working there oh my god so you're actually in it like do you get do you Get a credit can you put that on your

0:06:18 Eli: Don't get it

0:06:18 Thomas: Me you're you're wearing like nipple clamps or

0:06:21 Eli: No it's so funny because I'm just 19 and like very enthusiastically waving at the camera and it's it's worth finding the clip because it it comes in through and it yes it's going down the hallway of the dungeon right and it clips are like people being spanked jerked off and all this stuff

0:06:21 Thomas: Something right as you're just standing there oh no okay now this one I'll find fuck mickey rooney but this one and then you just working

0:06:40 Tom: Well what and

0:06:40 Eli: But because you have to go through the hallway there's It's just me at the desk being like, hello! It's the fucking best.

0:06:47 Tom: Then they don't know where to set up the craft services table. It's like a whole problem. And there you go.

0:06:51 Eli: Oh, no one would be foolish enough to expose me to craft services. I would bankrupt Brazzers with my tamale consumption.

0:06:59 Tom: All right. So this is, again, this is Chris. First time writing. And he says, I've always loved sports, especially hockey. But growing up in Utah, we never had a real big hockey culture. However, now that we have an NHL team in Salt Lake, my wife and I have been going to as many games as possible. I'm even looking at possibly getting season tickets. We weren't sure how our nine -year -old daughter would feel about the sport. But she's really enjoyed it to the point we spend stoppages looking up the rules so she can better understand what's happening.

0:07:25 Thomas: Reception rubbed it in just fucking rubbing it in over here just my dream

0:07:29 Tom: This brought up the larger question in my mind. How do we help cultivate the things in our kids' lives that they enjoy? It's certainly easier if it's something we also enjoy, but how do we helps them broaden their hobbies and enjoyments? I appreciate everything you guys do.

0:07:44 Thomas: My question is how do I get my kids to give the slightest shit about anything I like anybody can anybody that's all this makes me think of no that's true I'm just kidding

0:07:51 Eli: Come on! You and Arlo got something! First of all, my kid doesn't give a shit about the stuff I like is my take, and so I'm gonna need you to do the other side.

0:07:57 Thomas: Yeah that's fair

0:08:01 Tom: You gotta do Arlo and Nintendo. You guys both love Nintendo, I think.

0:08:04 Thomas: That's truth oh man so this is someone someone who like their kid likes hockey more than they do. I'm just my brain. I can't wrap my brain try. Okay.

0:08:04 Eli: Fuck yeah.

0:08:13 Tom: Yeah, I don't know if they like it more, but I think the question is like, how do we cultivate the things in our kids' lives that they enjoy and how do we help them broaden their interests and enjoyments? So, right.

0:08:21 Thomas: Oh, sorry. With the backing assumption that like, it's not supernatural to the dad. It seems like, you know, cause if it's, if it'S Nintendo and Arlo, it'S like, well, it' s just our favorite thing. So we do it all the time, but I'm sorry. Maybe I was bringing that to the question, but when it's things that your kids do that you're not really into is what I was was taking it as but I could be am I reading into that oh it

0:08:41 Eli: No, it's about when your kids do things that you are into. Yeah, no, because he loves hockey.

0:08:44 Thomas: Is oh oh

0:08:44 Tom: The beginning of the question, like he loves hockey so much he's going to get season tickets. They take their daughter to the game. Like they're, they're into it. He's using that as a backdrop to ask a broader question, which is like, Hey, it's kind of easy when you and your kids both share an interest. That is kind of like the natural easy thing. But like, Like, how do you get your kids to broaden out their interests and enjoy other things and have other interests? And how do we engage those things, I think, when they're not like the easy, natural stuff?

0:09:13 Eli: Right, and I was interested in talking about this question because I know that you and Arlo have Minecraft, you and arlo have Zelda, and Tom and Finn have weightlifting. So I thought that would be like a really cool thing to sort of discuss how that's evolved, how that has changed, where the differences are.

0:09:28 Tom: Yeah, so I can start with Finn because it's actually it's funny because while Finn lifts weights just about every day, he will not lift weights with me. We have never actually lifted weights together. I think maybe once, maybe, maybe once. But I mean, other than that, no, like he does not want to do it. I actually asked him the other day if he wanted to go to CrossFit. And he's like, yeah, I don't want to do that. Donovan and I, however, can work out together frequently. He doesn't take to it as naturally, but he likes doing it. He definitely got into it big time when he was in high school because his gym class, he took a weight training program. He really liked it. He made a lot of progress on it, and he was enjoying the progress. So Donovan, and I actually can lift weights, but Finn and I can't. Finn only wants to lift alone. He'll have somebody come down and watch him if he's going to do a max lift or something, thing but he will not lift weights with me he won't come downstairs while I'm doing it he doesn't want me to come downstairs when he's doing it like that is separate spheres I

0:10:23 Eli: Do you have a safety bench?

0:10:25 Tom: Do yeah of course I do yeah yeah yeah

0:10:25 Eli: Oh, okay, yeah, I was going to say, I would not let anybody lift weights alone.

0:10:28 Tom: We've got a power rack with the safeties and everything and yeah

0:10:30 Eli: Yeah, if you've got a power rack and you've got a safety bench, you're fine. But the image of my son being like, nah, I'm just going to lift stuff over my head over and over again until I can't no more but I'm a little bit shy it's cool I'll wear a blindfold and then if I hear choking I'll take it off I don't know what to tell you kid yeah

0:10:41 Thomas: Are we talking about your porn again are we trying

0:10:49 Eli: There's also talking about that yeah

0:10:49 Tom: Yeah I don't really understand what is reticence like where that reticence comes from but like with donovan and I like we'll go downstairs and I'll sometimes write a totally different workout out for donovan that's what we're working on now I'm like yeah this is not the appropriate workout for you here's what you should be working on and we'll just kind of work together you know if we're in each other's way a little bit we'll give each other like a you know hey let me work in or whatever and that works out great but other than that it's really hard I don't have a lot of shared mutual interests with my kids that's tough and like I will say too that we've tried really hard to get our kids to broaden out their interests you know we've offered all kinds of lessons and classes and you know sports and begged and borrowed and pleaded to get them to do stuff I gotta tell you like if they don't have an interest in it they just don't seem to have an interest in I've got kids that are 18 19 and I have not figured that piece out yet it seems to me that they come to things when they come home donovan takes guitar lessons he's super into that I could give a shit about the guitar. I don't know how to play instruments. I don' t have an ear for music. It' s not my thing. He loves it. But I think even like four or five years ago, he would have looked at you like you were made of fucking moon rocks if you had suggested it. I think a lot of this stuff kids just have to sort of like find on their own. And I guess like thinking back to when I was a kid, I didn' t having any shared interests with my dad. And I don´t think that that got in the way of our ability to have like a good relationship either.

0:12:16 Tom: Like to share hobbies. Hobbies did you have shared hobbies with your parents either of them mom or dad well I'm not shocked for you

0:12:20 Eli: Oh yeah big

0:12:17 Thomas: My dad and I golfed all the time I mean it would be if it was something shared in the sense that if I did something my dad liked then we had a shared there wasn't any like effort on his part of ever anytime ever to do anything related to anything thing I had liked, but it just so happened that I did like playing golf. So we, you know, actually I keep forgetting one of my best times with my dad was like, for some reason, it must've been some sort of sale. I imagine it had to have been a sale, but when I was a freshman in high, no, I don't know. I think it was a freshmen in high school. I can't remember. My dad one day picked me up from high school, like a little early, like out of nowhere. And it was like we're going to go go get a pool table. I was like, what? Yeah.

0:13:08 Tom: What what an insane sentence to say

0:13:10 Thomas: And so we went and bought the cheapest pool table probably money could buy. And I put it together. I being a kid, this is not anything, but I've realized in retrospect that because I was a Tom as a kid where I thought everything needed to be tightened as much as possible. Yeah. I fucked up the pool table and it was banked essentially because I tightened down the bolts too much. So like there's the balls would like just go left left and right from the middle, you know, like the bank down. And so that was fun. I played pool on the table that was all fucked.

0:13:27 Tom: That's a true thing well one always hangs a little lower so it makes sense yeah

0:13:42 Eli: Time that's

0:13:43 Thomas: It was weird. We played pool like just from time to time. It'd be like, my dad would be like, you want to like, it was very weird. It Was nice actually. Now that I think about it, but it's, it's so discordant with the rest of my, like everything with my dad that I like forgot about it. It's weird, but It was. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:13:58 Tom: Well at least you got into golf like you got to golf with him like I kind of am sympathetic to that dad point of view it's really hard to fake enjoying things you don't enjoy

0:14:07 Thomas: Well, especially Tom with us when we're so fucking busy. I find that tough where it's like, if I had all the time in the world, I'd be like, yeah, sure. You know? But when you have like three minutes a day, it's like, God, do I want to spend it doing something I hate? So hard. Yeah. Really hard.

0:14:15 Tom: Yeah yeah I mean you're not look you're Not Wrong You're Not wrong I mean like Like, I'm not bitching, but, like, I agree with that completely. Like, Eamon is really into making, and they're adorable, making these little stop -motion movies. He uses his iPad and his Legos, and then he narrates them, and they are nonsense. They make no sense. They have no narrative structure at all. You can't follow the story, and he loves it, and that's cool, and it takes him a long time, and it's hundreds of little pictures that he takes in order to make things work, and I'm like, yeah, let me see it. It's awesome, and I am like, this must have taken so much work. I always make sure to, like praise the effort, you know, kind of a thing when he shows them to me I always make time to stop what I'm doing and look at them when he brings them to be or at least get back to him as soon as I can when he wants to show it to me but like they don't make any fucking sense and they're like four minutes long and like after a minute or two my brain is just like off doing something else but he'll never know that like I make sure that he won't know that but I find that a lot of times like I just don't happen to share the interest and I don't I don' think that's necessarily a bad thing I donno like do you

0:14:39 Eli: Awesome yeah

0:15:22 Tom: Fake fake it like is it like I do think you have to fake it to some degree

0:15:25 Eli: A hundred percent yeah and and I think a lot of parents like unnecessarily guilt themselves over the fact that they're faking it and it's like dude you're fucking faking it that's awesome yeah people from our generation were scared of their dads do you know how quickly I would kill myself 360 my own head like scorpion if I thought my son was afraid of me I'd be like don't worry kiddo let me take care of the problem yuck right so the fact that you didn't always fucking feel it in your cajones when you watch the 103rd stop motion epic about sonic the hedgehog falling off a table like all they care about is is that you were

0:15:34 Tom: That's what I tell hayley right

0:16:07 Eli: Into it. Is that you were into it and that you made them feel loved and positive. Have you seen that? I'm going to butcher this description and also you should describe studies when you're not an expert. But you know that expert about the enthusiasm study, the parent enthusiasm study? So they did this study where they had kids do their favorite thing in the world and they instructed their parents to be enthusiastic about it and be like, oh my gosh, this is so amazing. And then they measured the kids' self -confidence about how good they they were at that thing and how much they enjoyed it and what that study found is it actually doesn't matter what activity the child is doing it could be something that they are terrible at but if the parent is like oh my gosh this is so fun like you tried so hard they will still think they are better at

0:16:20 Tom: No

0:16:51 Eli: It and think that they enjoyed It more because all they care about up to a certain age is you of

0:16:56 Tom: I feel like that's true I also like I've been thinking about this a little bit recently because I am having a hard time you know that I've got all four kids in the house like there were we have a whole new home dynamic right and we're sort of just all trying to figure out what that dynamic looks like and how we all kind of like live together day to day and it made things change, right? So it was one thing when it was every other weekend and holidays and a little bit over the summer. And now it's just every single day. And so things have kind of shifted. The vibe is a little different in the house. You know, energy is a Little different in the house when we're all kind of together and not in bad ways, just different ways.

0:17:32 Tom: Like sometimes it's hard, especially with Eamon, who's 11. It's hard to find something to talk to him about. Like with Finn, I can at least talk to them about the weightlifting. We might not be able to do it together right he might have a preference toward working out by himself and like that's cool whatever man it's fine he probably doesn't want to work out on my schedule anyway like no sane person would a lot of people like

0:17:31 Eli: Course I think it's the scream crying by the way I didn't get to give give this note, but I think it's the fact that you that you keep screaming oh god, please kill me, let it drop let it droop, and that's true of pretty much whatever set Tom is doing,

0:18:06 Thomas: Well, plus he the one time he can get a little little shut eye is like in between the reps you know like he'll do like bench press a little bit sleep slightly oh

0:18:07 Tom: That that's it's true oh yeah that

0:18:07 Eli: It's distracting yeah, exactly, no, he does branch onto his neck and then let himself go asleep, yeah no,

0:18:17 Tom: The micro sleeping in between sets is is fucking money yeah but like at least it gives us something to talk about you know and aislinn has like a I was thinking about this aisling has an acting class and she's super into it I've never taken an acting class but I've been on stage before I've you know I wrote a play once

0:18:29 Thomas: But you've been clip -clop tom

0:18:35 Tom: I acted in that play I've being clip -clopped Tom yeah so

0:18:37 Eli: You've been clip -clopped Tom which is an award -winning performance, yes

0:18:38 Thomas: You've embodied clip -clip tom yeah

0:18:40 Tom: I've done a little bit of that so like I can identify we can talk about it like we're not sharing that space in the moment but we can about it I think like the most important thing about having some kind of or finding or even faking it well enough to have some kind of a shared interest in something has less to do with doing that thing with them, or at least I hope this is true, but just like having something to talk about, you know? Because like, how was your day, buddy? Doesn't get you very far and can't really build a bridge, you Know? It doesn't build a connection. I will say like with Eamon, it's a struggle. It is a struggle to like figure out what the fuck to talk About with an 11 year old, you Know?

0:19:15 Eli: Noop yeah,

0:19:17 Thomas: Yeah you can't just talk about six seven all day just literally just say six seven you know my kids do that?

0:19:20 Eli: 6 -7 6

0:19:20 Tom: Oh my God, enough fucking, Fucking, uh, fucking six, seven.

0:19:25 Thomas: It's so funny that is having kids that are that small, that like Remy will just go six, seven, six, seven.

0:19:26 Eli: -6 -7 hell yeah yes

0:19:32 Thomas: And he has no idea, obviously. Well, no one does, but he has no idea what's happening, but it's cute enough since he's so small. That's like actually, oh, okay. It's made it slightly tolerable.

0:19:42 Tom: Did you see the op -ed in the New York Times like a day or two ago about six, seven?

0:19:46 Thomas: Whatever it is. I can't wait. Yeah.

0:19:47 Eli: It's the most New York Times possible thing I love because I really was upset with the New York times op -ed section for a while because of what a death of society and culture they are but now I realize it's like getting an insight into the fucking rec room at the old age home where they're just like it was like do the kids even want us to know what this six seven means and it was a oh my god you New Yorker reading clowns what I've realized is that the New York Times op -ed section is an old person's version of not touching grass. It's just the old person version of not touching grasses. I read a really challenging article about the intranet on New Yorker Magazine the other day, and I think we should really pay attention to what these people on the book face are doing.

0:20:35 Tom: That's exactly how that article feels.

0:20:35 Eli: I worry we haven't enough riz.

0:20:40 Tom: That article is exactly, but I like the kids fucking six seven all the time.

0:20:42 Thomas: God I gotta read that

0:20:45 Eli: Oh, it's the best.

0:20:45 Tom: And it makes me want to, it makes me absolutely crazy. They even make fun of it.

0:20:49 Thomas: Oh yeah it does need to die like I'm firmly on the side of it needs to go away

0:20:54 Eli: Here's the issue I'm having, which is I'm a funny person, and so kids do things that are memes and jokes, and then I try to join in but I'm an adult so I'm not cool I assume when regular parents do that they're like ah gosh dang it I wish my kids thought I was cool but I like uh no actually it's pretty scientifically locked in that I'm funny so I think the bone mo I constructed out of six seven right now deserves a little more credit than that mm

0:20:59 Thomas: But right yeah yeah

0:21:16 Tom: My kids' favorite thing for me is just to tell me how old I am now. Like that's their like ongoing thing. Just like, you're old.

0:21:24 Eli: -hmm it's one of my favorite things

0:21:26 Tom: And I'm just like, but like, there's no juice to it. Like, fuck it. If you're going to roast me, roast me. You know, like I am keenly aware that I am 47 years old. Like it has not escaped my attention, you know?

0:21:27 Eli: Too so

0:21:30 Thomas: Jesus fucking christ holy crap

0:21:38 Eli: Old

0:21:41 Tom: So it's just like part of me is like, you guys are fucking bad at this. You're boring. Don't be boring. If you'RE going to to roast me fucking get in there like let's have a little roast off we'll see who cries it will not be me these

0:21:52 Thomas: We'll see christ Christ.

0:21:53 Eli: You should you should play some v for c for them you just gently place the phone on the table and play some V for C roasts this is just what daddy does for fun just a quick reminder

0:22:02 Tom: Are people I don't know their hearts yeah imagine if I knew something sensitive about you huh

0:22:06 Eli: These are people I don't know just this is what daddy doesn't know everybody understand who they are feeling comfortable and who they aren't what they represent just wanted to check again

0:22:14 Tom: Hey thomas

0:22:26 Ad: [Ad break 2 — ad music]

0:22:28 Tom: You've got kids that are like in sports and doing other stuff are they into it are you kind of forcing the issue

0:22:31 Thomas: I don't have kids that do sports. Are you kidding? I wish I did.

0:22:35 Tom: Well you kind of did for over the summer right you yeah

0:22:37 Eli: Yeah they did soccer

0:22:37 Thomas: God, they're yeah, I kind of forced them to do some stuff and they hate it and they don't they aren't doing it this year.

0:22:43 Tom: Yeah yeah we're gonna put Eamon in karate

0:22:45 Eli: Karate max is also in karate it's the

0:22:47 Tom: At the end of this month and like what I had to tell him though is I was like look man even if you don't like it if you want to do it that's awesome I mean it like let's go fuck yeah but if you decide you don'T like it you still have to do IT for at least six months because like I also know that like as soon as it gets hard or repetitive or he comes home and he's tired he doesn't want to go he's a kid like he has no ability to think outside the moment he's in right now so like there's not going to be like oh you know the long -term benefits of sticking around in karate really will outweigh the great like there's none of that like you can't do that so like we did have to make an agreement that like I don't want to hear about it like if you don't wanna go that's a story that I'm not interested in you telling me you're signed up for six months you're going for six months locked in he's like yeah awesome we're gonna do it we'll see how that actually goes but But I am hoping that like a commitment will create a habit and that that habit will sort of like self -reinforce, you know, that he'll get some victories and get some wins and he'll, you know, get better at stuff and it'll help him get through the the sort of doldrums of starting something that I think a lot of people run into the barrier of like, yeah, I tried to do that and I wasn't immediately good at it.

0:23:13 Eli: Best right right right

0:23:55 Tom: It got hard and I had to practice. So I quit.

0:23:55 Thomas: My kids have that so much. And then I have to remember how young they are. And I'm like trying to be like, I want to react appropriately to it, it, which I think is just no reaction at this age. You know, it's like they're so young. The thing I don't want to do is forget how old they are and how shitty we all were at anything when we were in first grade.

0:24:16 Thomas: And, you know, we can barely remember how shitty we were at stuff back then. I think it's really easy for parents to just pretend, especially dads. Like there's like a dad pride thing that happens where they pretend they were way better at everything than they were at a young age. And then they can like yell at a crying kid about it. You know it's like yeah yeah exactly

0:24:33 Eli: Right well and we're also at the end of a narrative which we have formed right like I'm like oh I always wanted to be an actor I did drama and then I did thing and then now I'm a performer right it's always been this straight line it's so neat and clean but like Like, I also did lacrosse for eight and a half seconds. Yeah. Lacrosse, high school football, wrestling team. Yeah, I tried all sorts of shit and it didn't work out for me. And I also think another skill to speak to both of what you were just saying is like, it's really important to learn that discomfort and boredom are not pain.

0:24:46 Thomas: Yeah what the fuck are you talking about I would rather see that video than your porno like I would Rather see

0:24:48 Tom: I am unable to visualize this right now.

0:25:05 Eli: Those are different emotions. And actually you can get better at feeling them, right?

0:25:10 Tom: Yes, dude.

0:25:10 Eli: Because I think one of the issues that a lot of people have, especially young people who have been weaponized with sort of pseudo psychological language is that they now think like, oh, I feel bad. Maybe this is bad. Boredom is healthy. Bordom is a good thing for you to do, right? It's not isolation. It'snot abuse. Itsthat it's cool to like be outside in the grass and be like, God, I wish something would happen as good for your brain is good.

0:25:38 Tom: Yeah. Yeah, but we're in a culture, I think, that has started to pathologize discomforts, like all types of discomforts. So like feeling nervous is now being anxious and having anxiety. And I understand that some people have anxiety, but I also understand that sometimes people are just nervous or they are anxious in the moment and it's not the same thing. But like we have pathologized all sorts of discomfort in these ways that become definitional. And if they become definitional then they become barriers or excuses or otherwise the pendulum has kind of swung yeah but yeah yeah

0:26:09 Thomas: Like for example Tom pathologizes any discomfort he has with society and he diagnoses it as a societal

0:26:17 Eli: As a societal ill that must be forever ended. Yeah. I think it's weird you set that Baskin -Robbins on fire because they were out of your favorite flavor.

0:26:24 Tom: Do you though do you think it's weird I feel like that was pretty expected they should have had tiramisu ice cream like that's on

0:26:28 Eli: You're right. Not odd. Weird. That is on them. That woman screamed from inside that building, we don't even carry that flavor, so many times. I was like, I don't think you're going to convince them. I told her, but she was dead.

0:26:36 Tom: Them well you know place your orders better I don't know what to tell you lady I don'T you know we have to learn lessons the hard way sometimes I don't

0:26:45 Eli: I think that's a part of it, and I also think that with access to the internet comes access to both liars and real people relating experiences that you're not having, right? And I'll call myself out for this, right, so Max recently started play therapy to work with some of the aggression stuff that he's doing at school and some of the rigidity, typical tism behaviors, but we want him to have all the tools necessary, and one of the things that was interesting is that I found myself lacking language about his fear of school bells and fire alarms that was not pathological in nature, right. Right. So I kept having to go. I don't mean anxiety.

0:26:54 Thomas: Pathology yeah yeah

0:26:56 Tom: Know

0:27:03 Thomas: Play therapy what

0:27:26 Tom: Yeah

0:27:26 Eli: I mean, he's anxious about it. Or, you know, I eat.

0:27:28 Thomas: Is the difference so I I actually genuinely I would be ill -equipped to have that possible conversation because I don't understand what that would be like I have performance anxiety to a level that is really shitty that I didn't know about. And I wish someone had pathologized me about it. If only anyone, because I need medication. I need in order to do any sports or performance that's at all like a big deal. I have to be on something. Otherwise I had a heart attack. Like it's the most unpleasant, awful feeling and I can't do do anything. And so I always had the exact opposite of what Tom's expressing, which I don't, I don'T mean to invalidate what you're expressing, Tom, but my thing was always people like, Hey, yeah, you know how you feel a little nervous? Use that energy, use that energy. And I'd be like, I need a hospital. Like I can't, I, I genuinely couldn't breathe or do anything and I was like, yeah, just, I'll just use the, like, it's just, so I don' t even know what, what it was like or what it is like to have like, oh, I'm just a little nervous.

0:28:13 Tom: No that's fine you're right yes

0:28:19 Eli: Exactly. Yeah, it's yeah. Yeah. Over diagnosis is a response to the pendulum swing of under diagnosis, which is still, I would argue, the bigger problem. And right. We deal with this with depression. Right. Like I remember so clearly being a kid and so many people being like everyone gets sad sometimes. Times. And I was like, I don't think they get sad like this. I don'T think this is what Elmo feels. I feel like Elmo would describe the situation differently. Right. But like, I was so incredibly lucky to have a parent who had not just depression, but my flavor of depression, because I could recognize that in them. They knew they needed medical treatment for it. They new they needed pharmacological care because in the fucking eighties and nineties, Our 80s and 90s depression? Are you kidding? Why? Were you sad at the end of SLC Punk? Get out there. Get some fresh air, motherfucker. Like, there was nothing. And so I think the wonderful thing about telling the difference there is that young people now have the language to say, hey, I think I might have anxiety, and then we can send them to doctors who are good at telling them whether or not that's a pathological condition or whether or Not they need medical care or if it's something that can work and the The understanding, and I don't think we have this yet, right, especially on the internet, the understanding that, like, that scale will slide, right? That, like there will be times in your life where you need to be medicated for anxiety. There will be time in your like where you don't. There will times where I need to medicated. There will need to me medicated where I might not need to. There will not need.

0:28:55 Thomas: Yeah, man. Right. Yeah.

0:30:06 Eli: There will time when you need inpatient care for depression, right where I needed to be in a hospital.

0:30:10 Thomas: That's what I was going to say, which is it's almost the other way, too, which Is there's the under diagnosis and yeah, go rub some dirt on it. But the other side of that is that if you rose to the level of maybe some sort of recognition of the problem back then, then it was too far the other way. Because I think, Eli, you and I have maybe talked about this. I think you obviously obviously have more acute, severe stuff than I have, but like, I actually need in my life and I'm trying to provide, I'll try to provide this for my kids. I need not like a dismissal at all of, of depression, but some idea that like, oh yeah, that's just a bad thing that you, it's almost like you injured something in your brain and not like this existential end of the world, you know, like, like so it's like both recognition of the problem in real terms and not dismissive terms, but not in catastrophizing terms. Cause I feel like that was the other option back then.

0:31:01 Eli: Exactly. It was sort of like, yeah, if you cross the line over into pharmacy care, you went to the wacko zone, right? You had to be locked up in a straight check. I mean, I can't tell you anything. You know, I used to do this mentoring program. I'm sure I've talked about it before. I did a mentoring program for victims of assault. And so one of the things that I dealt with a tremendous amount is kids who needed inpatient care had no idea what inpatient care was like because of the way they'd seen it represented in movies and television. Right. Like I remember once having one of my mentees agree to some inpatient care because she really needed it. We were like calling doctors and getting everybody ready. We were going to check her in. And she was like, how many hours a day do I have to wear a straight jacket?

0:31:28 Thomas: Hmm. Oh my, oh my God. Oh, my God, yeah.

0:31:45 Eli: Jacket and like she wasn't joking she genuinely believed she would be in a straight jacket a certain percentage of the day and I talked to adults yeah

0:31:45 Tom: Jesus christ and you're like no it's all day

0:31:54 Thomas: You don't get to take it off.

0:31:55 Tom: Yeah what that's a

0:31:56 Eli: Of course you never get to take it off they sew it into you this is crazy but like I talked to adults who are in desperate need of inpatient care and I'm like yeah no go inpatient and they're like no I could never do that I would never I wouldn't survive and I feel like you don't know what hospitals are imagine if your appendix ruptured and you were like no I'm never coming if I go in I'm never coming out I gotta deal with this at home with this you know I did some chat ChatGPT has put out a six bullet point plan and only one of them is uh you know drink carbon salt or whatever the fuck it

0:32:30 Tom: Crazy

0:32:37 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:32:38 Tom: Well like thomas I think you would raise you had to raise a good question I want to like answer it the way I know how because maybe I'm wrong but like just so the audience gets it too. The difference for me between I'm experiencing anxiety and I have anxiety, everybody experiences anxiety. That doesn't mean that you have anxiety. Anxiety is just a normal part of the human condition, right? Just like being sad is a normal part of human condition. Being anxious is a norm. I was anxious because I was doing a thing and the reasonable and appropriate response to the surroundings and context is to have some anxiety around it, right. So when I got my neck surgery, I was a little anxious that day. I don't have anxiety. I was in a context where like, yeah, being a little worried about this is an appropriate and reasonable response, right? To the situation. That's very different than being like, I have anxiety, that is something that like, first of all, is conditional, not on the context, but on you, you are the carrier of anxiety in that sentence, right, it's different than I am experiencing anxiety and also like if you are somebody who quote-unquote has anxiety you will then experience an anxious reaction when it's unwarranted by the context of the situation right or the amount of anxiety you'll experience will be far in excess of the context to the situation

0:33:58 Tom: And this is the important part too and normal tools that you would use to control that are not working so those are like really big differences and I think one of the problems that we have right now is that social media to a large degree has pushed forward algorithmically a narrative to people to say like, Hey, like you ever like try to call and order a pizza and you get fucking anxious. You have anxiety. And it's like, no, you're that's fucking insane. That is not good to teach people that every time they're uncomfortable, it's a diagnosable pathological condition. There are things that are just uncomfortable to do. And then you do them for a while and they become less uncomfortable because for most people in most situations that don't actually have a diagnosable condition, that's just how it works. But we're kind of not telling people that. We're kindof telling people an exact opposite thing. And that is getting in the way of people, I think, trying new things and pushing past that point of discomfort into the world where you're like, yeah, I didn't like that at first. It was uncomfortable. It It was difficult. It was socially awkward. I felt weird. I did it twenty five times and now I love doing it.

0:35:08 Eli: Right and the awkward weird feeling I had was not anxiety right because this shared language that we have is so hard to pin down, right? It's why the DSM is such an effective diagnostic tool, because it basically uses empathetic statements as a way to get someone to the point of diagnosis, right, as opposed to just deciding self-reporting, which is really, really hard to do. And the examples of that are like the pain scale, right or the depression scale or all that, which are wildly inaccurate, right. People are terrible at telling how much pain they're in. They're terrible at telling how sad they are. But empathetic statement is a really, really good way to get someone to understand whether or not they're having healthy or unhealthy thoughts or whether or not the thoughts they're having are exaggerations. But adding on top of all of that is that like, having anxiety with a capital A and taking a pill is something we sell. And so it will always be supported within a capitalist system more than maybe you are okay. And the bastions of maybe you are okay are going to be led by anti-psychology weirdos. When you try and talk about the problems of porn, if you're like, hey, I think this thing about porn might not be super cash money. Can we talk about it? And so you Google it and you see a website that's like not cash money things of porn. You're like nice. But then you click on the about me page and they're like Josiah was first found by Christ at the age of three

0:36:31 Eli: When he walked by an X and XX window and decided then and there to kill every computer he ever saw. And you're like oh god damn it damn it I got tricked by a witch yeah

0:36:43 Tom: Yeah, I think we also have to recognize, too, that like there's a difference in personality type that will emerge in our kids. And I think of it as like joiners versus non joiners. When I was a kid, I was definitely a non-joiner. I was not a joiner and this was not a good thing. Right? Right. So I also want to emphasize that I tell my kids, to the extent that you can control this, be a joiner. You'll have a better life. You'll Have more experiences.

0:37:07 Tom: Not all of them you will love, but you will have more of them. And if you liked 30 percent of them, you had more experiences that were positive than you would have had if you skipped it. I fucking skipped everything when I was a kid. You know, Haley and the kids will talk about like, oh, like Spirit Week for pep rally. Homecoming thing was stupid because I didn't. And I have no context for that. I went to high school, but like I didn't go to a pep rally or a football game or do the spirit week. I didn't do any of that shit. I didn't join a fucking thing. And so like I don't have that shared cultural history. And it's weird. And like when we have conversations and people have those conversations without being a joiner and being so anti-joiner growing up, I find myself as an adult being like, yeah, I don't have that shared cultural history, I didn't do the same things. Things so I tell my kids all the time like don't do that you're not too cool to have fun you're not too awkward to have fun you're not too anything to have fun join the fucking thing whatever the thing is join it go to

0:38:02 Thomas: Oh man I fully support and agree with trying to make my kids do that but then it's gonna be like if they ever call me out on it I've got nothing I've got no

0:38:04 Tom: The dance go to the game

0:38:14 Thomas: Follow-up like I've got like, yeah, you should do that. And I think that'll maybe help, but I can't, I can't do things or make my kids do things that I would never fucking do. So, so I'll be like, Hey, join in. And then if they're like, I don't want to do that, I'll back. Yeah, no, that's, that's fair.

0:38:24 Eli: Oh see I can oh see I'm all about like you got to be better than me there are so many things about my life that if max had those thingss I would do everything within my power to intercede so that he no longer had those thing if max worked the way I worked or rested the way I rest or took care of himself, took care of his body the way I take care of my body, I would intercede in every aspect of his life until it was different, right?

0:38:43 Thomas: That's true. There's that. Dang.

0:38:56 Eli: So when he's like, well, you're fat and you don't exercise, I'm going to be like, yeah, man, does it look like it's going awesome? Why don't we all gather around and watch daddy tie his shoes slash black out a little?

0:39:08 Tom: Yeah I will say too like I tell the kids like I'm a joiner now my answer to everything now is yes let's fucking do it like yeah.

0:39:15 Thomas: Oh, okay. Well, that's the difference. Yeah? No, I still can't join anything. Fuck that. It's boring. I'd rather die.

0:39:21 Tom: The other quick parting thought I have when Haley and I were dating, one of the things that I found really attractive about her is that like she tried a million things and didn't stick with any of them. And she was not, well, I don't want to say didn't stay with any of them, but like she didn't do anything for a really long period of time. She did gymnastics for a while, kind of a long while. She's a dancer. She has been through lines. But like one of things I remember telling her is like, I like people that are not specialists. I find it very attractive to have people in my life who can have a conversation about 75 things and when you open up their closet it's full of hockey skates and karate gis and oboes and you were never great at any of them but you played with all of them and I tell the kids the kind of the same thing like you don't have to specialize you can try something and put it down and try the next thing and then when you go out into the world you'll be a more interesting version than that guy who's just like real fucking hyper focused on one thing and that's great and if that's who you are that's awesome but for me personally it's not something I personally find

0:39:32 Thomas: ADHD. Yeah.

0:40:22 Tom: Attractive in people yes

0:40:22 Eli: And that is valid and not quitting, right, is something that people come up against a lot. You know, Noah always quotes this book. I'm going to butcher it because he will remember it. But he was reading this video game book. I remember once he was telling me how the author of that book talked about how he likes to get 80 percent good at a lot of different things rather than 100 percent good at one thing.

0:40:43 Tom: Can we lower it to 60 and then I'm in there

0:40:44 Eli: Right. Exactly. But like that notion, right, that is not a waste of time or you being half assed because, again, capitalism tries to filter us through this niche of like, is that your job?

0:40:45 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:40:56 Eli: Is that your job? And like, right, can you make content? How do you make money with that? But like, that's not the point of life. And again, like talking about our kids having a different thing. That's not true of me. That'S not what happened for me that I will dedicate myself to it being the case for Max. I have no interest in his stockholder value

0:40:57 Thomas: Can you make content about it? Can you make content about it?

0:41:18 Tom: Yeah figs

0:41:18 Eli: As a person, right? I'm doing this so that he gets to live a life of pleasure and his children get to live a life. If we're not doing it bad, right? It's, yeah, exactly. If you're if you're not aiming for figs and hammocks, what are you fucking doing? Why, right, because if it's about you, then I don't know, fuck off. Hey, a 401k I can spend. Like, what do we do in?

0:41:28 Tom: And

0:41:29 Thomas: Hashtag fig life. Yeah. Yeah.

0:41:42 Tom: Hammocks I hope I'm spending my 401k okay I

0:41:46 Clip: DEAR OLD DADS

0:41:52 Eli: All right, gentlemen, before we go, every single morning I get hit by the same bike. It's a vicious cycle.

0:42:01 Tom: Like that's good

0:42:03 Thomas: That's good. Today's topic. Yellow face.

0:42:53 Eli: On this, I worry we haven't enough rizz.

0:42:58 Tom: Let's have a little roast off we'll see who cries

0:43:02 Eli: Why don't we all gather around and watch daddy tie his shoes slash black out a little