DOD219: Should We Let Our Kids Hang Out With the Older Kids?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad. That's that's my thing. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired is the only part of being a father that I enjoy

0:00:29 Tom: To Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's hanging with the older kids. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:39 Eli: Come on kids try these cigarettes they'll make you cool yeah

0:00:43 Thomas: Speaking of a thing I just said off mic before we started, um, I I've just realized that it's on my mind. It's sort of a mini, not enough for a kid's story, a parenting story, but like I realized, okay, I're playing way too much of a video game with Arlo. Cause it's the bet. I got to find a way to not, but it's like, I don't know. It's the best thing, literally the most fun that could possibly be had by human beings is playing a video games with your son. There's no, I don't know how the fucking, I'm supposed to not do it all the time and he loves it and he's so sweet.

0:01:04 Eli: Games rule video games rule Arlo rules how

0:01:09 Thomas: Arlo fucking rules.

0:01:09 Eli: Could you not want to do that if

0:01:11 Thomas: But here's the one thing, and this is not a complaint about Arlo.

0:01:10 Tom: Ha ho ho! Oh,

0:01:12 Eli: You offered me to play a video game with Arlo right now I'd say yes I met that kid once portraitism

0:01:16 Thomas: This is not, a um, complaint About Arlo, but it is a bad combination of our two neurodivergences, I think, maybe, because I've realized he's, you know, got a touch of the tism in the best possible way. He's so, talk with a tism to you.

0:01:29 Eli: As Tom's people would say yeah and

0:01:30 Tom: She does.

0:01:33 Thomas: I have a touch of the overloading fucking unbelievable adhd so I have a touch of the 400 tons of ADHD, so whenever I'm trying to tell him to do something in the game of course and actually I don't even know if this is my adhd if this isn't how my mind works I've always just remembered like I only remember logic I don't remember things so the only way I've talked about before, the only way I remember where my sunglasses are is I go, well, where do I put sunglasses?

0:01:58 Thomas: Yeah, it's would he going to fit in your brain where you put your sunglasses last specifically?

0:01:58 Tom: That's what I do. No, no.

0:02:04 Thomas: What a waste of memory. Like there's just a that's a bad computer system, you know?

0:02:08 Tom: A thousand percent.

0:02:09 Thomas: Okay. Thanks for being with me on this.

0:02:11 Tom: Thousand percent!

0:02:11 Eli: When someone tries to break up the system when they're like I'm gonna put this here and you're like that's not where that goes though we had a system I'll change the system right now

0:02:14 Thomas: Kill them. Yeah, exactly. And then Lydia and I almost get divorced over it and that's how it goes. And that's, and that's her fault. And I don't, I'm, and I'm not sorry. No, but, so I'll try to tell Arlo to do stuff in in Stardew Valley, the greatest fucking game that we're having such fun time with. It's so good. Our farm is amazing. We're doing, we're almost to perfection. It's the best. And, I try to, I don' t know, I, I try to ask him to tell him to do something, but I can' t remember the fucking name. And I always say the name slightly differently. So if it's like the fucking, now I'm trying to remember an example if it's the um I always call them forges but they're not they're the little things you put oars in whatever the fuck those are called yeah

0:02:22 Tom: Ho ho ho, ho,

0:02:32 Eli: It's such a good game yeah furnace

0:02:55 Thomas: Whatever that is I'll be like oh go to the forge and whatever but he can't not correct me I know this is also a kid thing but like I think it is a bit of a tism thing as well he can'T not correct ME and I don't like I don'T mind most the time but a lot of times first off sometimes he's wrong and then it's like like okay well that's a little unfair and then other times it's like yeah I said the thing you said but like slightly like an incomprehensible difference so like I'm trying to teach them like hey buddy it's might want to try to chill on the corrections because like some people will get like kind of annoyed by that you know like you don't want to if you understand what I said like if you get the thing I was saying if I say the forage and it was actually the fucking I can't even remember the name of it see it's it's impossible. My brain's ruined.

0:03:37 Thomas: Thank you. Furnace. Say that, you know what I'm talking about? Like, just maybe just try, if you can just try to like, like, I'm really being gentle. I'm like, maybe try to, like just know what I'm trying about and don't worry about it. You know, like and I don't know how much this is like, am I trying to make him, you do you think that's a foul? Am I going against his neurodivergence or something? I don''t know. I just feel like in life constantly correcting people.

0:03:56 Eli: I I try to do that with my co -workers on a pretty regular basis it hasn't been working out with me so

0:04:00 Tom: How's that work, man? How's that work? Good? Working good?

0:04:01 Eli: Yeah

0:04:08 Thomas: So I try, you know, I'm just telling them like, yeah, some people, you know they might like not like that and kind of thing, but he can't do it's over and over and over. Cause my brain sucks and he's a kid, so he can'T stop doing the same thing. And so I love our video game time, but it's, it's seriously an hour of, you mean the furnace? You mean the furnace, Dad? Why do you always say forge? It's furnace. Why do and sometimes he gets mad at me dad why you always see fur fur and I'm like dude I just my brain doesn't fucking I gotta go maybe he forgot the thing about the inventory being full maybe I can try that again because that that worked that once in a while and like it is just hours of him correcting me because my brain is just so ruined

0:04:45 Eli: Yeah eventually he's gonna hit you with your mental health weakness he's going to be like well dad I just need you to put in the effort because it matters to me and you're going to gonna be like no no my my mental illness and he's gonna be like yeah my mental wellness my mental on this needs things to be correct and you're like no I had mine first and mine's not getting better so

0:04:57 Tom: Mine! Yeah, there's still hope for you, son, but I've If, uh, ask your mom, this is just what it is. This is not getting, yeah.

0:05:10 Eli: You got a lot of flexibility in those neurons we're putting your brain in the forge I mean the furnace fuck but gentlemen do you know the only thing worse than realizing your neuroplasticity days are far behind you why it's the auto ads Jumping in to turn your diamonds of a podcast experience into useless, useless sod. But you can marry the hot girl with the pink hair over at patreon.com forward slash Dear Old Dads, where for as little as a dollar, you'll get a little extra parenting story at the end of every show, commercial free version,

0:05:16 Thomas: So good. And my stupid brain. Ooh, what also will they get right now if they go to 1 -800 -DEAR -OLD -DADS? I don't know. I sound like an old-timey.

0:05:49 Eli: And bonus episode. Now, now, wait a second. We did just record a bonus episode but I don't want to lie to you patrons because the Smiths that's in the Smith's hands now Lydia has narcolepsy, maybe she's asleep right now while she's trying to edit that show maybe

0:06:01 Thomas: Up. It that's true. She might be, she might be right now. Be well that would never happen that is nonsense I don't know real wait

0:06:07 Eli: Thomas forgot the show existed but he remembers that a forge is a furnace doesn't matter what matters is we two thirds of this podcast have delivered you a bonus episode and you'll get it much like Tom's cell phone spoiler alert

0:06:21 Thomas: Hold on Hold on, you have to count a sixth of me I'm gonna pull an arlo and correct you so

0:06:26 Eli: Yeah, exactly when you get it over at patreon.com forward slash Dear Old Dads. Like, Tom's ability to communicate with the workforce, rip into it, is

0:06:40 Thomas: Good you gotta listen to this bonus it's the best which

0:06:43 Eli: Just Tom being trapped in the wrong time for 43 minutes. I don't want to spoil the bonus episode.

0:06:49 Thomas: I would listen to eight hours of yeah

0:06:49 Tom: Not wrong at all it's not

0:06:51 Eli: Is just tom I just know about um I always think about virginia wolf's suicide uh note all the time I think about it all the time every day forever where she says if anyone could make me if anyone would have made me happy it was you I often think about that and I think about that for tom and just like if he had just been born in 1929 he would have been just

0:06:51 Tom: Wrong it all God this

0:07:00 Thomas: Don't think I know it

0:07:01 Tom: Rocks

0:07:13 Thomas: Hold on to be fair he might have been we still don't now your

0:07:17 Tom: I about an hour after that about an after that

0:07:17 Eli: That's I think that's actually how it works out all right

0:07:19 Thomas: Theory was like the beginning of the universe I I think he's a reincarnation of Giles Corey.

0:07:23 Eli: He's every person he's the egg right he's everything every person that's ever been every murder every victim

0:07:27 Tom: At rate I'm aging my birthday is actually getting pushed back so it is yeah that's an aging rate thing this

0:07:29 Eli: That's true yeah yeah

0:07:32 Thomas: Is the modern version of more weight. More phone calls. And then they put the more phone calls you have to make on top. Anyway, the bonus.

0:07:35 Tom: Is this is oh God God, God,

0:07:41 Thomas: You got to listen to it, guys.

0:07:35 Eli: More family you

0:07:41 Tom: I even get into trying to register a kid for school around here. But all right. So that's fucking a nightmare. All right. It's the worst. Hold on.

0:07:48 Thomas: More stones.

0:07:49 Tom: I'm going to do guys real quick. I will. We'll talk it in the meat of things. But like when you register your kids for school, like a new student being registered for the first time in your school district, do you have to upload essentially the same amount of documentation to get like a mortgage to register your kid?

0:07:44 Eli: Didn't do that

0:08:06 Thomas: Yeah. And then it'll all be wrong somehow. They fucked that up with like Arlo's allergy or something or Arlo class. There's something weird that happened. And I

0:08:13 Tom: Jesus Christ. Christ, I got to send them, like, my passport or driver's license. Two my mortgage bill or deed to my house. I got send them like two utility bills, birth certificates.

0:08:21 Thomas: Could be like, dude, I barely want my kid's education. Come on. Don't even, I just,

0:08:24 Tom: It's fucking wild, you know? And they, I gotta send them the custody agreement. Like, it's crazy the amount of stuff you've got to send these people to fucking writers.

0:08:25 Eli: But Jersey's the fucking. Jersey's the best man. Jersey is the best because Jersey, obviously those are like national requirements. They're standardized, right? Jersey has that. But because we have literally the greatest school districts in the world, it's like, and hey, at the bottom of this letter, if this seems too hard, there's a place three blocks from your house where a lady will just do it all for you, where you can just walk in and go, I forgot my kid had school sometimes. And she goes, Oh, I'm sorry. I'm paid 24 hours a day, seven days a week to list those items off for you. Do you know what a driver's license is? No, that's okay. I'll explain it with brightly colored pictures. It's the fucking best.

0:08:49 Tom: What? Oh

0:09:09 Thomas: They're like a first grade teacher, but for the parent?

0:09:10 Tom: I'm so jealous right now.

0:09:11 Eli: Yeah. I registered. So I registered max for kindergarten the day registration became available because I already had all of the information I needed uploaded to Dropbox and categorized. And I did it so early that the system was like, oh, that must have been from last year and kicked me.

0:09:22 Tom: Of course you did.

0:09:29 Thomas: Oh, you got burned by being too good.

0:09:31 Eli: So I got the letter that was like hey, you forgot to register your kid for school and I called them and I was like I'm sorry. Diane is Diane there. I'd like to talk to Diane real quick. And they literally two seconds in the lady was like oh, I see the date here fixed it for you. Oh, that's great. You've got all your stuff. And yeah, I would give it like 24 hours next time just to let the system turn over to the next school year and then boom it was done and then it was done and she was like and by the way you have to have free lunch you were forcing it on you so what was your afterlife punishment like tom you

0:09:34 Thomas: And you're like, no, I didn't. Oh, nice. Yeah, that's awesome. You know, what's

0:09:59 Tom: What? What oh my god jesus christ

0:10:03 Thomas: Cool is if we wanted to just have nice things with our government, we could just do that. We could just vote for the things that are nice, and then we could all do that, or we could get mad because we're mad that some kid might get something and not deserve it, you know, so then we can be pissed and then take away all the things. Those are the two ways of doing government.

0:10:08 Eli: Just have it you just just piss off phil murphy yeah yeah can't open up the opportunity for a kid in cat ears to exist so you know

0:10:28 Tom: I so amen is changing school districts from a district so he has an iep and literally an adjacent district right now so he is moving to district over just one one district over he

0:10:41 Eli: I don't know why you think the distance should matter.

0:10:43 Thomas: And Tell that to the people on the other side of the Berlin Wall. It's right over there! I just want to be...

0:10:46 Tom: You would think they could call each other anyway so like he's got an iep in his school district now I need to talk to somebody about his iep when he starts the new school right and so I

0:10:58 Thomas: Great. Here we go. Tom, we're done with the bonus. We're not doing the bonus anymore.

0:11:01 Tom: Know I I'm just this real I promise real quick but like I called the lady at the new score and I'm like hey he's going to to transfer in and got an IEP I'd really like to talk to somebody so we don't wait because there's nobody that works there over the summer like there's Nobody over the Summer that works there so she's like can't yeah really talk to you in any detail and create a new IEP at this school and go through those details until he's a student and I was like okay that's fine and she's looking you can register him first as a student to this school until he is no longer a student of the other school but by that time it's summer

0:11:31 Thomas: We sent your kid to this other address.

0:11:34 Tom: But like then it's summer right

0:11:36 Thomas: Sorry, do you have a vacant field where your kid might be? Okay, these are all callbacks to the bonus that hopefully you've heard. Oh, shit, that's going to commit us to getting it out. No!

0:11:45 Eli: No! Lydia, wake up!

0:11:47 Thomas: Wait. But

0:11:50 Tom: It's everything is just so maddeningly like just there's no we can't overlap we can only let it there's a few days so we can have a conversation No, we can't. We can't do that. He be a student in our school and a student at another school. I'm like, yeah, I know that. But like, this is the worst way to make a transition. And she's like, yes, pretty much true. Like, all right, cool, cool. So that's just what we're going to do. All

0:12:12 Thomas: Least when you're dealing with government, then I can, I actually care. Then I'm like, oh wait, your government employee, you should care about your job and you should do a good job. So I actually, I don't, I no longer, I take off the gimp mask. I take, and I become not the customer service cuck because it's the government and they're required to care about stuff.

0:12:29 Tom: Yeah. But they just don't. They just don'T. And like the lady that I did talk to, she agreed to look at his existing IEP and like comment on it. And she did. And

0:12:38 Eli: There, that's my comment.

0:12:39 Thomas: Yeah. She's like, LOL. Like what?

0:12:42 Tom: She was like, yeah, I don't work here anymore. I got transferred.

0:12:46 Eli: Slur.

0:12:46 Tom: It's going to be somebody else. And I'm like, what the just fucking it's so. So I got to spend my afternoon trying to register aiming for the new school district. All something came up this week that I thought was interesting. And I really want to get your perspectives on it and kind of talk this through. So Aislinn is 14. So So she just graduated eighth grade. She has not begun high school. She'll be beginning high school in a week or two. Donovan is in his, he's beginning his sophomore year of college. Okay. So he's 19. She's 14. Yeah. So pretty big age gap, right?

0:13:24 Thomas: Did that, wait, how did that happen? What the fuck? What are you talking about? What

0:13:27 Tom: Know. I know, man.

0:13:28 Eli: So when a monster energy hat and a Haley love each other very much,

0:13:28 Thomas: Do you know what he's talking about What sorry what age is what what year are we what happened Jesus Tom

0:13:33 Tom: I know man. Yeah. 14 and 19. It's fucking crazy. Right. Right. So that's, that's important context, right. Right. So online, online, Aislinn is part of some of the like Discord servers that Donovan and Finn and some of their collective friends are on.

0:13:41 Eli: I'll be the judge of that.

0:13:51 Thomas: Do you do you know do you know what that is?

0:13:54 Tom: I know what a Discord server is.

0:13:54 Eli: Know what a Discord, you don't even know what Discord server

0:13:56 Tom: I know it.

0:13:56 Thomas: I was asking Tom Eli.

0:13:57 Tom: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I would never under any circumstances have a Discord account and log into one.

0:13:58 Thomas: You Okay, you can actually talk to

0:14:03 Tom: But yeah, I I'm getting I'm get an account right now. I'm getting open discord.

0:14:04 Thomas: Your bank on the discord server Okay, we have fuck Lydia wake up. We have to have gotten out the bonus before this happens. God damn it we'll do it we will hmm

0:14:12 Tom: Got to get out now. She's like kind of buddies. Like she, she and Donovan have always been close. So that's important to she and donovan have always been closed. And like, she's kind of bodies with all of these folks, like on their discord server and they play games together and they have all their inside jokes and all of this stuff. And as she's gotten a little bit older, she's getting closer and closer. And like she is kind of one of the gang now with this group of 19 and 20 year old kids. And when it was just all online and they're just playing games, I didn't really think anything of it. I thought it was sweet. And I do think it's sweet that like, you older brother has sort of like taken her under his wing and she's allowed to sort of be in this space and they can like hang out together. I don't have any problem with that at all. But this last weekend, Donovan's friends from out of town, some of his online friends from outside of town were coming into town. They were renting an Airbnb and Donovan and all of his friends were going to go hang out for the weekend in this Airbnb and they had like a Smash Bros tournament they were going to do and other stuff.

0:15:10 Tom: Right. Like, yeah, it's already over.

0:15:10 Thomas: For real can I come fuck damn

0:15:13 Tom: It's already over.

0:15:13 Eli: Can Heath come? He'll destroy those kids. Kids vodka

0:15:15 Thomas: It I actually never really played smash brothers but it'd be fun I'll go lose you

0:15:18 Tom: Sounds great. Like he's 19. Like this is great. And like I ask him it's the most fucking innocent shit. I'm like, hey, what do you got planned? It's like, oh, like Friday we're going to make homemade tiramisu.

0:15:25 Thomas: Get a bunch of soda and

0:15:26 Tom: Yeah. Dude, you're not even wrong. And I meet the real quick as an aside, like Sunday, all the kids came to our house and met all the kids and I was like oh I've never been less worried about a group of kids in my entire life never and never ever have I been loud I was like yeah man

0:15:38 Thomas: We're yeah yeah like we're starting the magic the gathering draft

0:15:44 Tom: It's like it's like go to cancun like whatever you guys will be fine like it it's it's all good

0:15:47 Thomas: And I just had a thought when I made my joke about soda I'm gonna be the parent that's like Like, don't get regular soda. Can you guys just get alcohol? Just get like fucking, can you drink wine? Regular soda. Ah, that's so bad for you. Yeah. But no, you can't, you know, you can't make a vodka Vodka Soda Coke cause that's, that'S just soda again.

0:16:00 Eli: Vodka you get like a nice potato vodka no drink it straight you

0:16:04 Thomas: I just don't, it's too much sugar, please.

0:16:05 Tom: No circling back around yeah Yeah. Too much

0:16:09 Thomas: Just do heroin. Just come at this heroin. It's diet heroin.

0:16:09 Tom: Sugar, like, yeah, just a lot of

0:16:12 Thomas: There's no, very few calories.

0:16:12 Tom: Heroin. Yeah, it's fine. It's low,

0:16:14 Eli: Want me to call uncle eli get you some dmt huh

0:16:16 Tom: Glycemic index on the heroin. Yeah.

0:16:18 Thomas: Yellow glycemic index on this cocaine.

0:16:22 Tom: Then this happens and I was like, what the fuck? So then Aislinn comes and she says, hey, I'd like to go spend the day. Donovan invited me. I'd love to go spent the day with Donovan and his friends at this Airbnb hanging out. And I was immediately like, well, that's not that's 100 % not going to happen. That is not a thing. Right. I'm not letting that occur. And one, I didn't know a lot of these kids. I'd never met a lot OF THESE KIDS YET. But I'm NOT real worried about them. I've never been real worried ABOUT THESE kids. And I want to kind of give you my thought process why I don't like this. I don't like this because I don t want to normalize, particularly for a young lady. I do not want to normalize age gap friendships and relationships where, in particular this one, right, where there's always a power dynamic in these situations, right? She just graduated eighth grade. These are sophomores in college, right.

0:17:11 Thomas: There's no one cooler than the older kids.

0:17:14 Tom: So, the more, in my mind, The more you sort of make this normal, make the hanging out and the creating of friends and all of that and the tightening of relationships between a 14-year-old and a 19 -year old, the more I sort of allow that to be normalized, the More as she gets older, she's going to, one, accept relationships that have a power dynamic where she is chasing somebody in that like older kid, cooler kid scenario, right? Right. Where she's trying to impress rather than trying to be impressed, you in equal terms. Two, like, I don't want to create a situation where she sees her peers as less desirable to hang out with than the older kids who have access and resources and cars and cool stuff. And none of her friends have that stuff. And I'm like, I don'T want you building relationships that mimic this in your life. Life so I was like yeah I'm not gonna let that happen like you can hang out at the at the party when they come here that's different I'm in the house it's different but like you're not one of the gang I can't let her be in

0:18:16 Tom: My mind one of the gang and I'm curious what you guys think of this

0:18:17 Thomas: Harsh. So are you in Haley on the, uh, same page? Same page on this.

0:18:23 Tom: Yeah 100 and you when when just not speaking too much out of school, she would relate the same thing. When Haley was a teenager, when she was 16, 15, 16, 17, she had a whole bunch of friends in her life that were adult friends that were in their early to mid -20s. And when she tells me the stories about that, I'm like, that's not cool. I get why you at 15 or 16 or 17 liked it. It always makes sense from the younger perspective. But like in the reverse, I think it's always problematic. And I think setting up that expectation for a power dynamic like like, it's not a power pandemic. It's not a relationship equals and peers. I don't think it can be. Like the four year difference between a kid who just graduated eighth grade and a kid Who just finished his his first year of college. That's Like, monumental amount of space in between there. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, it's a huge four years. Like, when you're 35 and somebody's 39, that's essentially the same day you were born. It does not matter at all. But like, 14 to 18, 19, that feels like an entirely different person. Like, an entirely Different World that they're living in.

0:19:25 Thomas: Agreed.

0:19:34 Eli: I don't have a problem with a young person hanging out with with this age gap right problem because this is is what my wife did. My wife hung out with her brother's friends. She has a, not quite that age gap, but she has a much older brother who was very protective of her and very much included her in a lot of those activities.

0:19:56 Tom: Was the age gap? I'm curious.

0:19:57 Eli: Um, I think he's four years older than her, five years older than her or something like that.

0:20:00 Tom: So it's about the same,

0:20:01 Eli: So it's, it's close, but I think it might be a little bit smaller. So I don't want to say like, Oh, it is exactly the same. I will say is the reason reason why this makes me hazy is that her older brother, Anna's older brother absolutely adored her. And she was the focus of those social interactions. Me and my sister are coming to hang out with you was always the priority there. And if people didn't want to hang out with Anna, he would literally say, oh, no, worries. But like, I'm not coming without my sister, right? Problem is it puts 100 % of the onus for that relationship to remain safe and appropriate on the older sibling, right. Sibling there has to under, not just understand, like take care of their younger sibling and make their younger siblings the priority, but they have to be navigating the dynamics in those relationships that even if someone is being being perfectly friendly, he can step in and say, hey, that's not an appropriate conversation to be having in front of a ninth grader, right? Or, hey guys, we can't really do this. We can't really talk about that in front OF my sister, right. And so what happens is that of the like power dynamic shifts to the older brother. And of course he is going to have the social pressure not to be the squeaky wheel. That's my worry in it.

0:21:16 Tom: I feel Like there's two issues at play when when people are much, much younger hanging out with people that are much much older and in such different places and their maturity levels and their, you know, access to the world and all of that stuff there's, this sort of micro level which is kind of what you're describing which is like, what actually happens during the time that we're hanging out like is everybody safe. Are there topics of conversation that are being discussed that like shouldn't be discussed? And whose job is it to manage that? And whose job Is it to make sure that like, not just that nobody like hits on this kid or whatever, like or makes a pass at a young kid, but like, whose job? Opposite to make sure that the situation doesn't just evolve into a conversation or conversational style that's like way more mature than this person should have that's amount like you said that's huge amount of like pressure to put on like donovan in this scenario and then there's like those sort of like zoom back or zoom out where it's like hey like what if all of her best best friends are 18 or 19 and then she sees like all of her 14 year old peers is like nah like I'm much more mature than them doesn't that seem like the classic dynamic of the kid who's got the fucking adult boyfriend at 17 or 18 because they're the mature one and like there's

0:22:34 Tom: All the problems that accompany that because like they do sort of see themselves as a peer with somebody that there are never peers with.

0:22:42 Eli: And that's that is really a tough thing to establish in a healthy boundary, because I do think you can be friendly towards a much younger person, a much Younger sibling of your friend. Right. I think it's perfectly fine for them to be there in a social dynamic. What is a lot harder to navigate and what everybody involved in that situation is going to have a really, really hard time navigating is the notion that, hey, I know you can be friends. I know You can hang out. It is entirely inappropriate for romantic relationships to develop between you and any of these people that you hang out with on a regular basis. Right. That is like a hard stop, not OK thing to happen. For the 18 -year -olds to understand. It's going to be hard for the 14 -year old to understand It's gonna be hard for her brother to understand because he likes and trusts those people and will see them treating her well, right? So it's a dynamic that adults will have to be responsible for enforcing and drawing that line at the friendship feels incredibly difficult.

0:23:47 Tom: Everybody gets that piece. I'm still worried because it, in my mind, it opens her up to meet the guy outside of that social circle. That's 18, 19, 20, and be like, yeah, these people in this age bracket are perfectly appropriate for me to be buddies with. And not true. Like maybe all the people in this social circle, because the brother is there can be sort of managed, but they would have to be managed. They then does it not set up an expectation that like, yeah, it's perfectly appropriate for me to have friends outside of this social circle and meet people outside of the social circle that are much older than I am and make friends. Why would that person necessarily be less safe than my brother's friend?

0:24:32 Eli: Right.

0:24:33 Tom: And like, I think there's a lot of answers to that. Like, I think they are necessarily less safe.

0:24:33 Eli: And you have to tell a 14 - year -old in that situation feel insulting even though they're not, right, you're not ready to hang out with this kind of people. You don't understand when situations turn appropriate. You Don't understand how you're supposed to be talked to. You Don't Understand how you 'Re supposed to Be Treated. All of that feels like to a 14 year old. You're a baby. You 'Re a baby, you're a Baby. You can't handle it yourself.

0:24:58 Thomas: That's so tough because I really don't want to do that to my kids, but I can see, I don't know how else to do this because I was just thinking back, you I was that age and don't you think that pretty much every kid will just think they're the exception? Like, isn't that like, like they'll just always be like, oh yeah, well, you know, 19 year olds shouldn't date 14 year olds, but like I'm mature and they are, you know, like, remember I thought that was certain things. I remember all my friends thought that they'll always just think they're the exception.

0:25:24 Eli: Dating a 14 -year -old right now.

0:25:27 Thomas: And it's like, I don't know what to do about that. Cause it you say, how do you, how do you argue with that in a way that's not really condescending?

0:25:29 Eli: Jail. You go to jail.

0:25:33 Tom: Well, that's exactly right, because like the other thing that's true about that is if I think I'm the exception, I'm going to be very open to that messaging when creeps tell me I'm the exception. And creeps a million creepy dudes that are older that will tell younger people, well, you're so much more mature for your age. That's why this is okay. Cause you're so much and everybody wants to think that they're the one who's so much mature for their age. So they're going to believe it from their brother that they trust and can trust. But the problem is they're also going to leave it from the creepos that they can't trust because precisely because because they're young and are not set up to make that distinction or, or am I like way overprotective? Cause like, I know I'm not.

0:26:16 Eli: I, I see, I see both sides of the scales because I absolutely see where you're coming from. That's where my impulse would be. And I also see the desire for there to be that sort of hands -off experience for your kid to learn and grow and make friends as they will. But like, where do you establish those boundaries? Now, Tom, I do have a suggestion for you and I want you to open your heart.

0:26:17 Thomas: I, yeah, here

0:26:35 Tom: This is going to be good. Yeah. This is gonna be good to me. I know it.

0:26:38 Thomas: We go.

0:26:38 Eli: Now, tom, I know your heart's going to be open to this one. So I'm asking the podcast listener at home. Okay? Which is that you let Aislinn be friends with whoever she wants, 30 year olds, 40 year olds. It doesn't matter. But the day she makes that friend, you go to to their house you ring their doorbell they open their door what no he's at the front door you're standing in the street and in the Street you are holding a watermelon and you press your thumbs into the watermelon until the juice starts to leak and then you just smush it between your hands and then You sort of shake the pieces into the road and you get in your car and you drive away no words need be said and they're like was that your dad you'd be like I I would never do that. And they're like, your hands are sticky. Yeah, I was jerking off. Whatever. If you need me, I'll be at Verizon.

0:27:25 Tom: Who's not fucking a watermelon. I'm fucking a watermelons. Whatever.

0:27:27 Thomas: In between whatever he's doing. Oh yeah I'm still on hold still on yep no I'm still here oh okay okay anyway as I was saying

0:27:33 Tom: I'm gonna open an account any day now

0:27:32 Eli: I'm so old. I'm just squishing a watermelon. Yeah, you know the age. Yeah, Yeah, No, it's tricky. I mean, I genuinely, I know where I will side, obviously. And again, I have a boy, so the dynamics are different. Like I know where I will side which is always on the safer more overprotective side um but it is tricky because you also the thing that's so interesting about this dynamic for you tom is that you've experienced the opposite dynamic right which is that you had the super strict dad and as a result of having the super strict dad you snuck out and did things you shouldn't do and and fought people in car washes and snuck out during the night. So you know that part of this holding tight, this overly... I wouldn't say overly protective. This protective mindset can sometimes lead to rebellion for the sake of rebellion.

0:28:14 Thomas: People and car washes yeah

0:28:32 Tom: Yeah and like I'm also aware that it's a unique almost completely unique option for girls with older boys where like some older guy at some point is gonna be like your parents don't understand you come live with me and that that dynamic does not typically work in the reverse that's what I say it's almost entirely unique so like to some degree like your ability as a parent once it begins your ability as a parents who rein it in to say like hey a hard stop this isn't happening it's less and less and less because like that 22 year old guy that's interested in your 15 or 16 or 14 year old daughter like guy might have his own place that

0:29:13 Eli: And 17, legally, you're fucked.

0:29:17 Tom: Yeah you can just like pack her shit and go move somewhere else and you can be like well fucking that sucks

0:29:23 Thomas: That's what that's why I lean toward like I also a couple things um wondering like how how did she take this because I feel like maybe your downplaying of online relationships could be another factor here because I would worry um like the cats cat's already out of the bag or those horses already left the barn with this and it's pretty cruel to try to be like oh you have all these friendships that you've developed that are very meaningful online but I tom a dinosaur who's on hold with four different banks uh value those so I would worry that that's that's a little unfair because it's already like this has already happened they

0:29:54 Tom: Well I mean what I told her was I said Aislinn I can't let you go spend the day at an Airbnb with a bunch of teenage boys that are five years older than you that I haven't met before you understand why that's a thing that when you say it out loud sounds crazy and she agreed she understood that that sounds crazy because like when you say it loud it does sound fucking crazy but what I did as I said look everybody's coming here on Sunday you're welcome to hang out with them on Sunday here in the house but like you're not going to go to an Airbnb with hour away from here with a bunch of kids I don't even know that are five years older than you and spend the day that's just not going to happen like I'm not going to let that happen I wouldn't let that happen with the boys like I don't want people to think that this is an entire like there's no way that if Donovan or Finn had been 14 or when Eamon turns 14 if they want to go hang out with a bunch of 18 or 19 year old boys not even girls boys I'd be like no we're not doing that are a hundred percent not making friends just getting out of eighth grade with college kids like that's not a world I'm going to like Like, if existence only online, there's a limited amount of damage and danger that can happen there. There's some. There's a significant amount. But, like, I worried about different things. You know what I mean? When it's, like. Out in the real world. Like, there are real life consequences. Like, I don't even know who's driving this kid around. You with Donovan, he's got his car. Things If get weird and he doesn't want to be there, he can walk out and get in the car and drive away. Aislinn's 14. She doesn't even have a fucking escape hatch. She's reliant entirely on largesse of other people and like the goodwill of other people and the ability to say as a young person in a situation where maybe she just doesn't want to be there anymore. Hey, somebody spend two hours driving me home. Like,

0:31:45 Tom: I just feel like everything about that just feels like fucking why would I set her up for that.

0:31:45 Eli: And to Donovan either, right? Right. Because Donovan is going to be exploring those friendships within his own dynamics. He's going to be finding his own comfort. And like you are adult level responsible for taking care of your younger sister right now is a huge burden to place on a young person exploring their own identity in that way.

0:32:08 Tom: Man. Yeah. I'll share that because that's a good point. So Aisling did get invited to go locally and it made a difference to us that it was locally. So Donovan's girlfriend, who we liked very much, her were having a 4th of July party. So it was at her house. Her parents were there. There were going to be a mix of adults and kids there. And so Aislin was was invited to go and we were a little uncomfortable with it, but we're like, okay, it's 15 minutes down the road. It's at the parent's house. There's going to be other adults there. We're going to let her go. So we're not totally like, absolutely not. Right. But we're trying to like find a middle space that I think like kind of limits how close she's able to get, but not entirely like block her off from these people. So, we let her go, yeah.

0:32:52 Eli: I think that's a very reasonable place to let a kid. I think I thinkthatsaperfectlyplace like reasonable.

0:32:57 Tom: I don't want the audience to think that that I'm a total nut, like, so we let her go, but we I know, I know, but

0:33:01 Thomas: Already yeah come on they

0:33:00 Eli: Tom, you are a total. No, yeah, you're not. There's nothing there. Yeah, you're a total nut, yeah.

0:33:03 Thomas: Appropriately Appropriately think

0:33:06 Tom: To point, Eli, we did tell both Donovan and Finn, because they were both going to be there, that, and Eli told you, it was kind of weird, I was like, you guys, I don't know, you thinking if you guys and Haley actually was the one who said this, but she was like you know if you are going to invite your sister to a party like this, she has to be in your eye line the entire night. Not You to go to the bathroom. If she goes to the bathroom, you're going to walk and make sure you see the bathroom she goes into and wait for her to get out of it. She's like your responsibility. So if you're going to invite her to this thing, she's in your eyeline 100 percent of the time and will hold you responsible if anything happens. And that's unfair. Like that's the thing I want to get back. That is a worse good time for Donovan and Finn. Right. And we know it. And part of it is like, I kind of don't want you inviting your sister to these places yeah

0:33:11 Eli: Eli, they told Eli, too. I was there in disguise. Hello, I am the chef. Hum hum hum.

0:33:13 Thomas: How

0:33:54 Eli: Yeah, no, look, and I think that is a totally reasonable reaction, is like, hey, I feel like that is too much care of my sister. Absolutely, go, have fun, be responsible just for yourself. We will hang out with Aislinn, and Aislinn will hang out in environments that are appropriate to her age.

0:34:13 Tom: Right because I have this feeling and that nobody who grows up early is okay out like I'll raise my hand like the People who are like yeah I was very mature for my age I grew up early they're not okay it's always because they were neglected in some significant way or something bad happened it's never because like oh I grew Up early I was Very mature for My age and I have have exclusively these set of cash money experiences people who grow up early grow up early because they had to grow up earlier and it hurts them like I think that it is a negative like anytime I've ever heard that without any exception I'm like oh what happened and then they've got a story about what happened like I uh even if the story is like yeah my dad worked two or three jobs all the time and I was basically left to fend for myself a lot like if it's it's not anything worse than that. It's never like, yeah, everything was great and I was really well taken care of.

0:35:16 Thomas: Do you deal with the fact that that, especially with, when You're talking about a girl and we're Talking about dudes that, you really hard to be like, no, the, the other eighth grade guys, check those dudes out. They're cool. They 'r They're awesome. They'RE super

0:35:29 Tom: That's the thing is they suck, right?

0:35:30 Thomas: Yeah. TheyRE awful. I don'T know. Yeah, it's true.

0:35:33 Eli: Men suck at any age, so maybe break that

0:35:35 Thomas: But I feel like that's why this dynamic happens so often is like that skewed down, you know, it's the, yeah, they're graded on a curve.

0:35:36 Eli: To them early. It's like, you're aiming for better. Yeah, by the time you're in your 20s and 30s, you'll be like, oh, it's just all of them. When you're that young, you'RE still searching for a man worthy of love and attention until you realize it's none of them, so understand that mistake.

0:35:52 Tom: Well, I've thought about that, Thomas, because I think that's like a like a super legit. But I think you have to be at that point, I think. And with a 14 year old, you can be I think can be honest and say, look, there are only in my view and I don't think I'm I would hold to this rock solid. I'll I'll die on this hill. I think there are only two types of guys that are adult or approaching adulthood that are interested in younger kids, like significantly younger kids. I'm not talking a year or two, like significant younger kids it's creeps. That's the one side. And it's people who are emotionally or psychologically stunted. Is it.

0:36:29 Eli: And fun fact, that that second group also creeps. They just are in pain.

0:36:33 Tom: I, so like, I think that there there might be some good hearted, but hold out that there are probably some people who are developmentally underdeveloped, right? Maturity wise, they are way underdevelopED. And that's the reason why a 14 or 15 or 16 year old kid is a fun and appealing person for them at 20 or 25, right? It's because they're not really 20 or25 except for in body. That's the best case scenario. That's still a bad scenario that's a bad scenario but

0:36:35 Eli: It's a circle within a circle. Yeah, still not okay. Right.

0:37:06 Tom: That's the best most charitable offering that I can offer because like genuinely if you think back to who you were at 20 or 21 and you thought like how appealing is a sophomore in high school to spend time with you'd be like fucking entirely unappealing that is not unless you were developmentally immature if you were developementally immature then they'd be be like yeah we have so much in common because I wasn't really 20 right and like no shame some people develop or mature at different different rates but like I would very much tell like a 14 year old like you don't want to get involved with somebody who's developmentally immature that's not good and you don'T WANT TO GET INVOLVED WITH A CREEP THAT'S NOT GOOD AND NOBODY ELSE AT THAT age is interested in you unless they fit those two categories yes

0:37:50 Eli: This experience all growing up, right? Because I would see girls in my high school dating college guys. And then I got to be college age and I was like, holy fucking shit, I don't want to date a high schooler. And then then I would would see girls in my college dating men who are my age now, right? 37, 38 year olds. Now I'm a 37, 38 year old. The idea, I would genuinely rather cut off digits of my fingers in order than date a 21 year old right now, Right? The idea of like, Whoa, it's really hard to find a book in the library. Right? And the idea that like, that is a maturity difference. Right. And look, don't get me wrong I want that person to have mental health care right I want them to be taken care of and cared for but much like I would put a tornado in jail if I could right first thing is to stop the harm that person's gonna do and that kind that of brings me to the solution that I have for this which is like and the example I gave is this because me and anna were talking about this the other day example I give is like if max's camp counselor came to me tomorrow and was like there's a real spark between me and max I want to date him everyone in society is like yep there's the hole in your backyard just make sure you you know they say shallow grave

0:38:05 Tom: I know

0:39:00 Thomas: Want

0:39:00 Eli: So you gotta make sure it's deep you really know yeah you gotta get a window eager right we all understand that the responsibility for that relationship however max feels about it is on the adult in that that situation. And that your job as a parent is to say to that fellow adult, hey, this is inappropriate contact. Go get yourself care. Get yourself safe. I consider you a danger to my child. And then you involve authorities if you need to involve authorities, right? You can't do that when they're 17 and 22 or whatever the case may be. But you bring that responsibility to the adult. And I think we often cape that responsibility in this Romeo and Juliet situation, right, where it's like, well, if you do that, she's just going to run to him harder. If you say no, she'll just say yes harder. And it's, like, yeah, all of that assumes that you have no trust, no confidence between you and your kid, Right. Right? Which I don't think is the case with you. I think that in these situations, it should be if you have done your job, it should be and it can be enough. And it sounds like that's exactly what happened, Tom, for

0:39:00 Thomas: To get a window egress cover for that?

0:40:09 Eli: You to turn to them and say, I am your parent. I adore you. Please trust me when I say this is not OK. And they will say yes. But then the second step is when it's an inappropriate relationship to turn to that adult and say hey I am this child's parent this thing you want is not okay right I mean don't get me wrong I mean look between you me and the podcast I'm doing a murder I'm Doing so many murders but for those who are uninclined to murder murder, bringing the responsibility to that person,

0:40:27 Thomas: There's a hole in my backyard. Thank you

0:40:30 Tom: Man boo boo

0:40:44 Thomas: I asked eli to start considering I asked eli to star considering other demographics for our show

0:40:46 Tom: Uninclined to murder boo

0:40:51 Eli: Look I can't fucking fathom, with a whistle on my lips would I do a murder, do you know how much smarter I am than cops, oh I'm sorry, cops are gonna catch me, the guys who are like, high school hard, me be gun man, okay, yeah. See if you can solve this one, Sherlock. Lock. Guys can't find who did fires, all right? I think I'm going to get away with this one, chief. No, but if you're not inclined towards murder or you have tiny hands, lots of people have tiny hands. They can't choke hard enough, right? That responsibility to the adult, but having that trust between your kids and you to say, hey, I know this is really painful. I need you to trust me this is not okay it's

0:41:08 Thomas: Maybe god man maybe god

0:41:40 Tom: Think that's I I what else can you do right like literally what else can you do yeah

0:41:43 Eli: The best thing you can do how

0:41:43 Thomas: Well think the argument would be like I guess to just try to say that thing the that I like would worry might be the you're supposed to do is of being worried about the very things you guys are talking about try to maintain contact because if if you think there's any chance that what someone's gonna do is just shut you out and be like okay yeah and then do it anyway, like that, that strikes me as more dangerous because then they're not going to tell you about stuff. They're not, you Know, so there's that classic problem where it's like, how do you keep them communicating with you? Like, do you worry about that?

0:42:13 Eli: Do you maintain that trust yeah oh

0:42:15 Tom: Well and like that's also keenly aware that every day that passes by my influence versus my kids peer influence has shifted Right. The time the kids are 12, 13, 14, I am a less influential person than their peers. And all the science backs that shit up. Like all the data says like that's that's the case. So at some point I recognize that I'm fucking fighting an uphill battle as the parent, because when the kids are little. I'm the most important thing. What dad says goes, my approval is the most important thing, all that kind of stuff. But like I with, think about like my, my, older teenage boys and like their girlfriends are more important than I am. So if I want to step in, I have to make sure to do it in a way that's delicate enough that it understands that relationship and that it doesn't like trod on that relationship because they'll win they will win over me every

0:42:34 Eli: 100 yep yeah

0:43:07 Tom: Time and that's weird that's a weird space to be in as the parent because it never used to be that way and now it is and I'm like fuck but Something to really be like oh god I got a great relationship but like I'm not a peer I'm Not a peer I am a second tier influence that's fucking nuts oh

0:43:32 Eli: Gentlemen, before we go, did you know that there was actually a Roman emperor who stopped aging after turning 19? Yeah, it was Emperor Constantine oh

0:43:43 Tom: My god oh my my God.

0:43:50 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email thedads at dearolddads .com or better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle and the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILf, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues, LLC, copyright 2022, all rights reserved.

0:44:32 Eli: No! Lydia, wake up! When a monster energy hat and a Haley love each other very much, doing a murder I'm my lips would I do a murder, do oh I'm sorry, cops are gonna catch me, the guys who are like, high school hard, me be gun man, okay, had mine first and

0:44:39 Tom: Glycemic index on the heroin. Yeah.