DOD216: What if Mental Illness Is Making You a Bad Parent?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad, that's my thing I know now what I can offer you that no one else can Complete and under-dependent I'm a man, I'm sensitive I need to feel loved, I need part of being a father that I enjoy

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's not making a joke about this topic. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:39 Eli: Hello!

0:00:39 Thomas: Given our history, that makes this sound way worse than it actually is. I feel like that,

0:00:43 Tom: It does, but I was struggling to come up with something where I'm like, I am not going to fall into the trap of mocking people.

0:00:44 Eli: Yeah, it does.

0:00:48 Thomas: You know, today's topic, pedophilia? I don't know, like, what could be...

0:00:52 Tom: Anytime Eli's on though,

0:00:51 Eli: Yeah, putting spaghetti in your butt. Yeah. Mm -hmm.

0:00:56 Thomas: That's the one thing Eli doesn't joke about, putting spaghetti in your butt.

0:00:59 Tom: He's very serious about something.

0:00:59 Eli: I never joke about putting spaghetti up your butt I'm very serious about it.

0:01:00 Thomas: He has rules. Ooh.

0:01:02 Tom: Cooked or raw, Eli? Cooked or raw?

0:01:04 Eli: Depends on how elastic your rectum is, Tom. And the heat.

0:01:06 Tom: Okay. All right. Yeah. All Right.

0:01:09 Thomas: Weirdly, it would be so much harder to put cooked spaghetti in, like how would you, how would you even, you know, like that'd be harder.

0:01:14 Eli: Oh, I don't think that's true.

0:01:14 Tom: With determination? With determination. Discrimination that's just yeah you

0:01:17 Eli: Yeah I feel like you haven't -

0:01:18 Thomas: I feel that's one of those riddles the Sphinx would tell you, you know, and you'd be like, which is easier? Well, obviously they're cooked because it's softer. And then it's like, nope, can't even get it in.

0:01:24 Tom: Might need some kind of some kind of help with a

0:01:26 Eli: I would stop the Sphinx and ask a lot of follow -up questions before I was just like, all right Let me see if I can figure out the riddle. I'd be like, whoa, whoa whoa whoa, what? What?

0:01:30 Thomas: Yeah. Nope. That's how they do it.

0:01:37 Eli: What man? I'm bored.

0:01:38 Thomas: I haven't been sitting here for 10 ,000 years. What are you?

0:01:41 Eli: Everybody knows the fucking two legs in the morning, three legs in the whatever that stupid shit is. But this one's really got me. I've spent the last like thousand years because raw obviously, you know, but it's not, it's longer. It's longer, so how? Really think about it. Is it sauced?

0:01:48 Tom: Yeah a lot of breakage breakage is a problem

0:02:00 Thomas: I never get tired of seeing someone trying to shove soft spaghetti up their ass. I never got tired of it. It's so hard to do. They think it's going to be easier. It's impossible. You can't do it

0:02:07 Eli: Oh, I can't wait for the internet to be invented. I'm not gonna ask anybody any riddles anymore. I's just gonna be, I'm gonna be set, let me tell ya.

0:02:09 Thomas: Ever

0:02:13 Tom: There's some dude on shark tank with a device to try to solve this problem you know like

0:02:17 Eli: Hey sharks, do you not know how much spaghetti you can fit in your rectum give me a sec let's have 50 minutes of silence while I think of a gape slash italian food joke to now call that device

0:02:18 Thomas: Happen to you. Yeah, you'd have to know all the pasta names, like by the shape. I'm trying to think. Oh, wait, hold on. Hold on. I almost have something. It's the pasta shape that has a flared base. It's got to be that. Whatever the Italian word for flared bases.

0:02:45 Tom: Is there a...

0:02:46 Eli: If I seem half in this episode podcast listener it's because in my head I'm running through all the pastas and all of the butthole isms in my hand so you know hopefully by the the end of the episode I'll have something for you

0:02:58 Tom: Butthole -isms.

0:02:58 Thomas: Buttholisms. He's right. Just right through the buttholism alone takes him a long time. Yeah.

0:03:02 Tom: It's like ziti, rotini. No, that's not it. It's not farfala. No, that's not it either. Farfala? Angel hair? No, I don't feel like it's angel hair.

0:03:03 Eli: But zd rhoda fartful uh fart fartful but guys you know the only thing worse than not being able to figure out the perfect italian butt play joke for your podcast why it's the auto ads the auto adds interrupting the thought process the flow of the conversation the same way spooning a big old dish of pasta up your tushy wood but you can put an end to those things over at patreon.com/seriouspod where for as little as a dollar you'll get an extra long commercial free version of every single show little parenting story at the end of every simple episode plus bonus episodes whenever thomas and lydia care to post them all over at patreon.com/seriouspod rip into it oh

0:03:53 Tom: Eli,

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0:04:00 Tom: Did you have a just return from a flight that went particularly well recently? Did the pilots turn off the fuel?

0:04:04 Eli: Yes my friends, they did.

0:04:09 Thomas: Oh, Jesus.

0:04:09 Eli: They turned off the fuel and

0:04:11 Tom: No, it's bad. Don't do that.

0:04:11 Eli: They flew just with the power of prayer. Little tale to weave for you, podcast listener. And here's my conclusion right here at the outset. I fly a lot because of my job and also because when I usually go places, I fly to them. So I do all the work flying, which is a lot. And then I do the travel flying, which means I fly along. And so most of the time when I fly, it's fine. I get on a plane, go to the thing. It's usually fine. And then about once a year, flying is so terrible and makes me feel so helpless that the average experience of flying is not worth it.

0:04:48 Eli: I soar like a bird through the air to go to places I would never see in my lifetime otherwise, multiple times a year. And the way I feel when that goes wrong is not worthy. The miracle of flight for me or anybody else all the technologies and all the international trade and the health care and the life -saving helicopter rides that have helped children and dangerous and none of it is worth it for the once a year where the entire air travel system collapses on top of me and it's bad enough

0:05:26 Thomas: And now that holiday is every single day though, so it's no longer once a year. It's a roughly 365 times a year

0:05:29 Eli: It's every single day it's mad enough when it happens to me right because it happens to me once a year unfortunately last night and leading into today a spoiler alert they're all the same to me right now it happened to my whole family it happened to my full family and I want to talk about it because it was a very interesting combination of emotions so long story short we are coming back from Spokane Washington where we were visiting Anna's family me Max Anna fly out there we get a big house the whole family comes. It's like three generations and kids and grandkids and cousins and everybody gathers around, hangs out, plays cards, has a good time. Wonderful week. Max had a blast. Anna had a blast. Wonderful, amazing goodness. Family time. Everybody's really happy. We're flying from Spokane.

0:05:59 Thomas: Spokane

0:06:01 Tom: This doesn't seem good.

0:06:23 Thomas: SpokANE.

0:06:23 Eli: We got a layover, right? Because we're not flying from SeaTac. We get a layover in Denver.

0:06:25 Thomas: How did her family not correct you every single time you said SpokAIN?

0:06:27 Tom: Spokane.

0:06:28 Eli: Is it Spokan?

0:06:29 Thomas: SpokAN.

0:06:30 Tom: SpokANE, yeah.

0:06:30 Eli: All right. Spokant.

0:06:32 Thomas: Even Tom knows that. Yeah Yeah.

0:06:32 Eli: There you go. Why do they put an E at the end of it then?

0:06:34 Tom: Yeah, I've been there, yeah,

0:06:35 Thomas: Oh, that's random. Okay.

0:06:35 Eli: Just get rid of your E then. You're wasting letters. Someone else needs that E. Your kid's starving.

0:06:39 Thomas: After they talk to Worchester or whatever, like step one. Yeah.

0:06:43 Eli: Wash your sister. Yeah. They'll get with wash your sister and then they'll get some of those E's over to Spokane. So we have a layover in Denver and Denver, if you've never flown into or out of Denver, Denver gets a lot of storms and they're never prepared for them. So it's already a tough airport. We've got a tight layover. We make our layover, we make it onto the plane and then the deboard the plane. Now this is two weeks ago for you podcast listener. Two weeks ago, you remember this

0:07:07 Thomas: This is literally two days ago for them. This is Thursday's episode. Thursday night. So Friday's episode that's tonight.

0:07:11 Eli: Thursday's episode. What was last episode then? Okay. Okay. Nevermind. Then the, you remember a couple of days ago?

0:07:15 Thomas: We remember we, we had to take a week off. So we're like right on. Yeah.

0:07:18 Eli: All right. So you remember last night episode or two days ago, podcast listener, there were, there were storms in Newark. So they didn't allow any planes to go to Newark until after. Yeah.

0:07:22 Thomas: It's right now. They're listening to it right now, but you're flying into Newark. The one where everybody dies I

0:07:31 Tom: Yeah he's in Jersey,

0:07:33 Eli: Yeah, I live 20 minutes from Newark now.

0:07:35 Thomas: Know but you're eli bosnick like wouldn't you be like well everybody dies in new york and I'm not taking my family I thought she'd fly to like an airport 300 miles away

0:07:44 Tom: It's convenience, Eli's big, but convenience trumps everything, no,

0:07:47 Thomas: Jeez I don't know oh

0:07:47 Eli: Convenience trumps everything. Also, I don't believe anybody died at Newark, I think someone was being a drama queen on Facebook.

0:07:52 Thomas: Okay nope that makes more sense conspiracy theory eli is that makes most sense than convenience

0:07:56 Eli: Thank you. They correct. So nothing is flying again. And so they're like, hey, your flight's canceled. And I was like, oh, that sucks. But you know, we're in Denver. Denver's a pretty cool city. I'm like, great. When can you get us on a plane? They're like Wednesday. I mean, I'm sorry. I thought I'm so sorry. Here we are Monday at 6 p .m. And I thought the words you just oh, wait, I'm so Sorry. Let me backtrack because I wouldn't be a dad complaining about air travel unless I complained about the service I got. So they canceled the flight and you've had a flight canceled before. What happens? Everybody line up. I'm going to rebook your flight and I'm going to give you your hotel voucher. I'm going to give you your food voucher, which is not enough for a complete meal, but you'll take it anyways. And then you'll all be on your way. Not what they did in this terminal, Denver terminal. They start handing out these business cards and I am like, Hey, what are these? And they're like, Oh, this is how you connect to a live agent who will be able to help you.

0:08:49 Eli: And I'm like, I'm sorry, what? And they go, yeah, we don't have any United counters inside the terminal. And I am, like, okay, but is there a way I could talk to a live human being and this woman, knowing that I would never be able to fly on an airplane again if I punched her in the head until she died said there are live human beings on the other end of these phones yeah so I was like okay so I scan the smart square I wait on hold for 45 minutes because an entire plane of people are

0:08:49 Tom: What,

0:09:11 Thomas: They're not yeah

0:09:11 Tom: No what, this is not,

0:09:21 Thomas: Yeah

0:09:21 Eli: Simultaneously trying to get rescheduled for their flights and so we finally get reschedule they do it and they say yeah the The only flight that we have for you leaves at 2 a .m. And I am in this airport. It's like eight o 'clock at night. So it's not far enough away that we can get a hotel. And it's Not soon enough that it's not going to be six hours in an airport.

0:09:42 Tom: Oh my god, this is the worst thing, this

0:09:43 Eli: It was 1 a.m. I'm sorry. It was one a.m. So it was even sooner. The flight gets pushed back to 3:19 a.m. So we have Max, who is five, just the two of us in this Airport trying to get him to sleep, trying to get he was honestly pretty great like he got tired and a little cranky and a little badly behaved towards the end of the night but so did fucking I you know but otherwise it was fine but yeah we just went on this plane at three in the fucking morning and here's the thing right they load us onto this new plane here's one more other thing to complain about they load us onto this complaint three in the morning I look and I'm like hey we're not seated together we're seated in three different parts of the plane my son oh sorry I gotta complain about another complaint I'm so sorry because I know this is just a complaint within a complaint

0:09:49 Thomas: Ah jesus yeah

0:09:52 Tom: Is horrible,

0:09:57 Thomas: Yeah no

0:10:13 Tom: Oh dude, the complaint top is still spinning, so you're You're fine. Yeah.

0:10:31 Eli: Exactly I I noticed this and so we go to the gate and the person's not there yet. You know how they wait until 27 seconds before the flight before they come out and stand at their little podium because then they would have to get things done in a timely matter instead of trying to board the flight while answering questions at the same time. So I stand there, guy comes out, I'm the first in line and he does that thing that people do sometimes where they know you're waiting but they're logging into their system. And let me give you a piece of advice, okay? Because I worked in customer service, in many ways I still do. Here's how you make that a golden experience.

0:11:04 Eli: Hey, I'm so sorry. I just got to log into my computer. You're up first. I gotcha.

0:11:06 Thomas: Yep you just say two words pretty much

0:11:09 Eli: You say that to me, I will wait for 19 hours. Doesn't say a word to me. Clickety clack, clickety clack, clickety clack. And what he decides to do, and this is on purpose. There's always this moment where you go, is this on purpose? It's fucking on purpose, he decides, I mumbling. I'm not going to talk. I don't want to talk I'm like I'm so sorry I can't hear you can I come over there and he's like yeah so I come over I tell him hey I'm in three separate parts of the plane I understand if you can't put all the three of us together but could you maybe put my son with one of his parents because he's five he goes best I could do is put two of you together I was like yeah that's what I suggested thanks for making it fucking weird with your and again he's doing this dead faced thing that people do when they're in customer service like oh I'm so resentful of this thing be free brother I don't want you to be here if you don't want to be here fucking steal a bunch of money out of cash register run

0:11:51 Tom: That's, yeah, that's the thing I said. Yeah. Right.

0:12:05 Eli: Off into the night but right now I'm trying to get a three -year -old across the country on an aeroplane so let's focus the fuck up yeah so he fucking gets us on the plane I am one row ahead the plane is loading in plane is loaded in and nobody is sitting next to my son oh I am gonna be able to sit next to my son and be there for him the last person on the plane is an old guy who cannot hear he's like not deaf deaf but he's that like all right what level of death who gets on and I'm like hey obviously it's your and this is exactly what I said because it's always tough to say switch seats with me right because I'm in the middle and he is on the inside I get it I fucking get it I don't like it and I am like hey obviously you paid for your seat I am not going to tell you what to do but if you don't want to sit next to my five -year -old I'm happy to switch with you right which is a nice way of saying please

0:12:26 Thomas: You lost two years geez no no

0:12:28 Tom: Come on.

0:12:48 Thomas: Yep

0:12:57 Eli: Let me sit next to my son he goes no I'd prefer to keep my

0:12:57 Tom: Yeah, right. Why? Why would you prefer that?

0:13:03 Eli: Seat uh so that he could yell questions at the stewardess and wake my five year old every 27 seconds during this 3 a .m flight it's interesting right it's weird that I didn't get the adnan you have received a collect call from the yeah and much like adnan I did it but

0:13:09 Thomas: Oh my god so how are you talking from the prison that you're in yeah I know I I'm I edit it out I every time you know yes

0:13:24 Eli: Yeah he fucking he just sits there light on fucking the whole time it was just a and then and then listen to the fucking audacity listen to the audacity like 20 minutes from landing turns to my wife turns to me wife he goes I have a pretty quick layover can you let me out right away when the plane stops I was like sir sir and here's the thing there's a thing about flight here's conspiracy conspiracy theory Eli taking on putting my hat back on for a second my conspiracy helmet my tinfoil hat I think the reason TikTok shows me a video of someone getting arrested on a plane

0:13:43 Thomas: Oh my God oh

0:13:43 Tom: Are you fucking kidding me? Yeah.

0:14:01 Eli: Every couple of hours is to remind me that if you if you go crazy on a point planes are a place that make you you want to go crazy and if you go crazy on a plane you never get to be on a plane again you have to take a train everywhere and trains don't go everywhere so that's why they show you some lady being dragged off in cuffs because they're like don't do it don't bite this old man until the blood gushes warm over your teeth and you can drink the part of him that still could sustain you even the dead-faced kid who was like best I could do it I can't even tell him to fuck himself because all I have all I have to do is say the wrong thing I don't have to be like I'm gonna fucking kill you right because that's right all I Have to do Is be like hey man You really sucked I want you to know you really Sucked at your job right now it's really scary I Got my young son here we're obviously in like A really precarious situation and you're doing This little fucking thing about your life you're Doing a bit about your Life and I want You to know You have permission to kill yourself From

0:14:07 Thomas: There are consequences don't

0:14:20 Tom: It's true. Yeah.

0:14:25 Thomas: Exist yeah yeah

0:15:06 Eli: Me you can do it tonight drink something put it under the sink big boy it will be so fast you will be free maybe reincarnation's real roll the dice this one was a natural one if I say that and he calls the airport cops they go home and I don't I have to drive from denver I haveto get on seven trains and a bus to get home but I don't where does the anger go where do I put I have

0:15:35 Tom: You stuff it deep, deep, deep inside. That's what you do. And then you die of a heart attack early. That's all you do, Eli. You just have like, how old are you, Eli?

0:15:37 Eli: It deep down and that's right I'm 38 37

0:15:46 Thomas: Way I'm 30 I thought we might be 37 I'm turning 39 in a

0:15:46 Tom: Yeah. So my dad had his first heart attack when he was 53. And I think back, I'm like, you know what? I've never seen my dad lose his temper. And I'm like yeah, well he had his first heart attack at 53. That was the first big outburst. That Was his first big he stuffed it in there and then it was full. It's like the garbage can on trash day, right? At some point, you can't jump up and down any more on top of it, and then your aorta bursts, and that's how that works.

0:16:03 Thomas: Sec yeah yeah I think a lot of people in your situation eli what they do is they tend to find victims that society doesn't really care about and then they just prey on those victims

0:16:20 Tom: I mean, that's a lot of people, so that's nice. That's good, yeah. Yeah, that'S good. That's a LOT of people. You've got a lot OF choices.

0:16:21 Eli: All right I've opened talk to me about some of these victims okay

0:16:25 Thomas: Yeah they hope nobody notices, you know, just a lot of people like you can tend to do that.

0:16:30 Eli: Talking about like circus people traveling

0:16:33 Thomas: Now I was talking about serial killers, but yeah, it's fine. Oh yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

0:16:34 Tom: Take your pick.

0:16:39 Thomas: You know, that kind of thing. So that's an option.

0:16:35 Eli: Wayfarers hitchhikers vagabonds it was weird just then because I was like hey hey, it's a funny joke to be excited about this, but you can't name any of the people society actually victimizes. So I was like, carnies and their slick tricks and their unwinnable games of chance. That's who I'm after.

0:16:46 Thomas: I know. Yeah, yeah. It's confusing.

0:16:57 Eli: So yeah, I am currently operating on a single hour of sleep. And I wish you guys would stop looming out of the computer at me. That is the one note I have for this week's episode is you keep leaning through the screen and making erotic hot dog sculptures in the air in front of me. And I would love it if you just no

0:17:09 Tom: I feel like you don't actually want us to stop.

0:17:15 Thomas: So, but you didn't even at least do a karma thing and be like, oh no, you sit your ass right there. We'd prefer to get off in the the order that we get off the plane you didn't even do that really

0:17:22 Eli: Of course not of course not

0:17:24 Thomas: That surprises me that surprises me

0:17:26 Eli: Here's the thing first of all she's the one who got to make the decision but second of all you can't do anything that's gonna cause a problem the stakes on a plane are

0:17:29 Thomas: Oh okay never mind yeah it's like that movie is

0:17:36 Eli: So high right I'm so sick of these motherfucking stakes on these motherfuckin planes are so High that when someone's willing to break the social contract a little you just have to be like well yeah I mean you're a bad person like I don't

0:17:52 Thomas: This the thing where you can't be on social media at all is that what you have no moderation because I feel like I could pretty easily be like oh no we'll uh we'll take our turn and handle that level handle that level of no you're a piece of shit you should have let me sit with my kid

0:17:59 Eli: Know I think that's what it is I think that there's a level of sanity

0:18:05 Thomas: Yeah you know you'll go to beating someone to death in five seconds. Yeah.

0:18:08 Eli: Right exactly here's what I think it is and then I'll we'll talk about the subject of the day I think what it is that what you are is honest with people and you're like no what you do is you just have like a normal conversation because that what you really feel is a polite correction of their behavior and I'm like let me look into the honesty box and see it says bite his eye until you can taste his visual memory do I do this and you guys are like no no don't do that and I'm like this is all I got in here I got oh I got jerk off onto his pockets I don't know what that is that one better

0:18:42 Thomas: Can't do that either.

0:18:44 Tom: No, no.

0:18:44 Thomas: That's probably worse.

0:18:45 Tom: They fucking make that weird now. Fucking woke society.

0:18:46 Eli: They do they do wokes they ruined it

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0:18:58 Tom: All right, so we've got an email to talk about today. This email is from Ridiculous Pseudonym. I have two kids under the age of four. I recently found out that what I thought was generalized anxiety disorder is actually OCD. Diagnosed by a professional and not the internet. Internet. Turns out, thank you, now I can take it seriously. Turns out that OCD is a real sneaky disorder that can do a really good job at hiding. I'm happy to share more about it if you're curious. I was already on anti -anxiety meds and I'm now getting proper therapy for the OCD and treating it.

0:19:28 Tom: My problem now is that the treatment for OCD increases anxiety, at least in the short term, since I have to avoid doing the compulsions that I'd been using to deal with my anxieties in the moment. I feel like the increased anxiety makes me a worse parent. I do do what I can, but I'm more distracted and have a shorter temper. I'm struggling with the idea that taking care of myself means that I can't provide as much care for my kids. I have an appointment to talk about adjusting my meds, but I know that's going to take time to have an effect. It may take a few tries to get right, and until then, how do I balance caring for my mental health with being fully present for my children? Yeah, I read this a few times, and I thought, I don't think what I'm going to say is going to be very popular, but But I would discourage you if you are in a place where you are short of temper, I would discourage from trying to be fully present with your kids right now. I would lean on your partner.

0:19:26 Eli: Good for you hmm

0:20:22 Tom: This is a time when being fully present may not serve the kids as fully as you would like. And that might suck to say, but like, this is probably a moment in your life where you got to say okay, here's what I can do. And it might be smaller than you'd like it to be. And it might be less than than what you would like it to be. It might be worse than what it is. Than what's you've always done before, but that's what your partner's for. That's why we partner with people typically. And I hope you have one, but like this is one of the advantages of a two parent system, right?

0:20:22 Thomas: Yeah.

0:20:52 Tom: It's not hopefully just you, but even if it is just you. You might have to say, hey, I'm not gonna let myself be fully present because a fully present me may be unkind.

0:21:03 Tom: And so I need to take a step back, create a distance, even if that distance hurts you, in order to not hurt them okay right

0:21:03 Thomas: I think that's the right answer, honestly. I don't think that's yeah

0:21:12 Eli: Not only is it the right answer but I will also say that we completely understand when it is any other kind of illness if you were diagnosed with breast cancer or if you were diagnosed with fucking you know diabetes they wouldn't be like really mom checking your insulin levels again like I'm really in a fight with my friend about roblox right now no they'd be like my mom is sick and my mom needs to take this space and time to heal and here's the fucking amazing thing you're doing it and this is the other thing like what you are doing in taking care of yourself is the showing up for your kids because a million parents Parents out there are not doing it. They're fucking standing over the ham and cheese being like, man, you fucking kids don't appreciate me. And then they're mentally ill forever and they're horrible to Thomas. And Thomas is like, hey, did the best they could. You did exactly the right thing. You are taking care of yourself. You are recognizing that the bucket has less in it than it used to have. But because of the work you are doing, it will eventually be a fuller, better bucket. It and your kids will never look I think I appreciated the time absolutely not but they will never be able to express to you the gratitude because it will be an invisible heroism you did for them

0:21:39 Thomas: Yeah well done yeah yep 100 yeah yeah jesus

0:22:31 Eli: You know I think about this with my mom all the time right so I've talked about this on the show my mom battled debilitating depression all through my childhood literally bedridden with depression but she still played with me six eight hours a day yeah

0:22:43 Tom: Jesus christ I'm not depressed at all and I wouldn't fucking do

0:22:46 Eli: Exactly is that like I would come into her room first thing in the morning and we would play pretend games because that was pretty much all she could do all day is I would just put on weird little plays for I would do podcasts at her and she would be like oh it's such a good podcast I'm enjoying it like and subscribe right this is was all she would do and that was her fighting through illness when there were two pit right they had like well this one kills you just straight it's bleach and then this one's called brozak it's not brozac yeah because it doesn't have any positives but it's we're starting out with this how heroic that was understand that your kids are able to understand what you are going through that you don't need to hide it from them that you might be less present that you can have that conversation they will understand and more importantly that they will recognize that as growth and use it as a model to take care of themselves in the future the reason I had a way easier time with mental illness than my mom did and her mom did before her is because I had had a model of taking care of your mental health. So you're not just doing the right thing. You're not just making the right choices. You are also setting an expectation for self -care that you're going to want your kids to have when they are adults and when they were parents too. Yeah.

0:23:56 Tom: Know let me let me throw in too that like I think it's important and mental health is different than other types of health concerns in some significant ways like it's very unlikely that that if I have colon cancer or something, that my behavior may turn toward the unkind. But when we are struggling with mental health stuff, sometimes we are not good arbiters and judges of our own behavior and the impacts of our behavior on other people. That's just how that works sometimes. So I think it's important too to say, I have a desire not to hurt you. And if I Have to take a step back from caring for you in order were to not hurt you, that's your obligation. You have to do that. You have to create distance, time, space, whatever it is. And then you can decide, all right, this is what I can do. Eli, like your mom, like I can play with you from bed. Or I can't play with you at all today. And if that hurts their feelings because you're not able to play with them today, but you're not going to say anything mean, and you're not going snap off at them, and you're not going to lose your temper, you're in a much better position being unavailable because you're sick today or unavailable because you are sick this week, then you are snapping off and losing your temperate kids. Kids remember that shit. It locks in and it helps build patterns for how they handle conflict themselves. I think we have a really strong obligation to manage our moods in front of our kids. If there's something that's preventing you from managing your moods in frontof your kids, you've got to not be around them. You just have to not be around them.

0:25:26 Thomas: I I think that'S PRETTY MUCH RIGHT ON I REALLY I SAW THIS AND THIS RESONATED WITH ME A BIT NOT BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE OCD BUT I DO THERE'S TIMES WHEN I REALIZE LIKE Like, oh man, having mental health problems makes it really fucking hard to be a good parent. Sometimes it just, it's, it makes it real. Really hard. And I think it's one of those things where I just wanted to say to all the people that have anxiety that listen to this, cause there's so many that like, nothing's an excuse. And obviously we have to, we haveと like find a way, but I just want to like legitimize the fact that like it is way harder for you than other people. If you have anxiety and you're trying to deal with little kids especially it's just harder but the job you have to do is harder it doesn't mean like yes therefore it's fine that you're shitty to your kids I'm not saying that but I just want to like maybe be in your corner a little bit to say the thing you're tying to pull off is really fucking hard and good job for trying to do it because god I realized the other day like I was being short with the kids I was like oh yeah I feel like shit I'm all anxious about something you know me the last thing I ever want to do is be mean to my kids and yet like I was being short with them because I just can't like when your system is overloaded and you're like your brain is just like everything is like a weird like threat thing you know it's just like it's so hard to not

0:25:53 Eli: Everyone's mad at you. Well,

0:26:44 Thomas: Be like please be quiet you know they just like try to you know to be a little too harsh with them with your tone you know like at the very least it's really hard to manage that it's like it'S good what you're doing and in the long run I think Tom's and Eli's advice is right on and I think that's the thing to do but I think a lot of people maybe don't understand how hard it is, even though it's not an excuse for anything. It's just like, God, it can be really fucking hard. Yeah.

0:27:08 Eli: And I think specifically people who are struggling with those conditions feel like it shouldn't be harder for them, right? Like parenting doesn't get to be harder for me, but like if you were a wheelchair user or a cane user or someone who had severe your vision limitation. And you said, yep, parenting little kids is a lot harder for me. Everyone would be like, of course, absolutely. You have this disability that affects everything in your life. No one would doubt that you obviously were working harder and having a harder time doing this. But because mental illness feels like you're you, you're like, well, no, it's just the me. If I could just squeeze my me hard enough, my me won't have a hard time doing it. But yeah, it is a part of who you are. You're also going to be way better at other things. Your empathy, your understanding of those situations, your ability to connect, your ability zu have conversations about what's going on with your mind. I tell you, as an adult now who has been fighting depression for 20 something years, when young people, when friends, kids start to experience depression and anxiety, they come to me. They're like, hey, what about about this medication and I'm like oh yeah no I remember that one from 2007 let me see let me check the side effects here now okay this one kills your dick but in a good way don't worry it's not a bad kill your day you know there's the bad kill -your -dick where you still wanna but you can't and this one just kills it this one killed it dead

0:27:14 Thomas: Yeah, it is harder. That's okay. Yeah in a good way.

0:28:31 Eli: Like hitler you know what I'm saying but yeah I mean like that is its own level of expertise and its own of helpfulness and that is a gift that you will bring to it as well but 100 what thomas is saying that those things will will be harder for you, and that's okay.

0:28:46 Tom: I also want to acknowledge the tone of the email, which I think is really important, is here is a parent who clearly feels like they're supposed to be doing something, right? We have a tremendous amount of guilt baked into being a parent. We are supposed to always be available. We are supposed always to be present. We supposed to be superhuman. We are supposed to always be able to do all the right things. But the truth is we're not going to do any of that. You're going to have kids for a really fucking long time and you're going to get sick and you'RE going to be unavailable. And you've got to be okay with that. You have to be OK with the idea that imperfect parenting is still parenting, that imperfect perfect parenting is the best any of us are ever going to be able to do. And you've got to release the fucking guilt. And I say that's easier said than done. It's way easier said Than Done. But if you're in a place where you're like, hey, the best I can do is to be in a dark room today and I can't handle the stimulus of handling these kids right now and I'm leaning more heavily on my partner than I would otherwise like to do, you can't also feel guilty about that. Because then then you're going to have to deal with the guilt of it.

0:30:02 Tom: Then you're gonna have to deal with anxiety plus the guilt. Now you're stacking problems on problems on problems. You've got to find a way to say, I have to understand that parenting, the standard can't be perfect. The standard has to be sometimes good enough and safe is what we're going do today. Sometimes a convenience meal and nobody got yelled at is a perfectly acceptable day.

0:30:02 Thomas: Would have been the best day of my childhood. No, I'm just kidding.

0:30:29 Tom: Yeah, man, there's a lot lot of fucking kids that just get yelled at. They just got yelled at because dad was in a bad mood and that's not cool. Dad should have excused himself from the fucking room and gone off and done something different and not been the person who lost his temper. It's easier said than done, but that's what we're supposed to try to do. We have to accept that being unavailable is better than being volatile. Being volatile is never good. Being unavailable, that's way better. Way better be imperfect be okay with imperfection don't let that guilt like be a thing you have to now fix as well as the anxiety or as well the depression or as the whatever because you can't do both yeah

0:31:15 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:31:16 Thomas: I think being aware is such a big thing. Being self -aware is such a big step. I mean, it's not everything, but I just think about how many people sort of before, and it sounds like Eli never really had a period of time where he didn't intimately understand mental health, but like, I definitely did. I didn't understand mental health stuff for a long time. And I just remember like how many People there are walking around that are just fucking absolute basket cases and don't know it, you know?

0:31:41 Thomas: And it's like, that's what causes a lot of problems. If you have, and you know, as somebody who's has mental health challenges and his family has met a lot of challenges.

0:31:41 Eli: Yeah, and refuses to know it. Ha -Ha -ha, mm.

0:31:51 Thomas: It's way different to be like, oh gosh, yeah, sorry. My depression today, my anxiety today, my whatever is so much easier to deal with than the person who has all these fucking just nuts things about them that they inflict on other people and they think it's normal. Like they make it like a normal thing and they won't believe that it's not, you know? Like that's much harder to deal With. I feel like that's so many people though.

0:32:13 Tom: It's almost everybody so many people lack self -awareness of their own you know like the ways that like their own illnesses the way their own like bad defense mechanisms their own like inability to like emotionally regulate and we're taught that that's okay we're We're taught a model of parenting where getting frustrated and yelling at the kids is normalized. When we do that stuff, which is inevitable, but when we normalize the doing of it, when we do that stuff and we don't apologize and we Don't treat that like, hey, I made a mistake. I'm really sorry. I shouldn't have lost my temper. When we Do that, what we're teaching is like, Hey, I'm a grownup and I can't self -regulate, but I'm going to yell at you because you didn't probably self - regulate. And then nobody believes us. Then the kids don't emotionally believe you because why would they what you've done is probably yelled at a kid for not displaying good emotional regulation and the way that you've told them to emotionally regulate themselves better is by refusing to demonstrate that same thing as a grown-ass man or woman and the kids don't emotionally believe you they just know they got in trouble and that's different it's not the same thing it's no lesson learned there we've normalized that and that's like a lot of the the stuff that you see, that's the, um, sort of response to gentle parenting that you see online where it's like, ah, you got to give them some tough love. Ah, sometimes you just, you know, you gotta yell at them. Ah, sometimes, you get all this soft stuff. Isn't working. That's like that, that soft stuff is better. That soft stuff, that stuff is a thousand times better. And we have all the research that shows it, you know, we know with certainty and facts that that's actually much better,

0:33:44 Tom: But it's harder to do. It's much harder to do because otherwise we have to hold ourselves accountable when we fuck up and if we're just the grown-up and we don't hold ourselves accountable at all because I'm the grown up and you're the kid and that's what's normalized right

0:33:58 Thomas: Oh, that's a big one that I was gonna go to what I was going to say, which is, I think I've said it before, but just in case, and maybe you can call this me trying to make the best of my situation, but I will tell you that one thing my dad never did in his entire fucking life was apologize or say, hey, sorry, I got really mad just then, or, you know, never a single time. And I think that made a massive difference. I really do think that even if, you know—it's not like he would have been fucking perfect or anything, but even if he had a lot of his same shortcomings, but had some ability, some ability to say, oh, I'm having a bad day. Sorry about that. I took that out on you. You know, some ability. I literally can't imagine what that would have been like because it was never like literally it wasn't like, oh, it happened a handful of zero times, zero times.

0:34:47 Thomas: It's entirely possible that that could have changed it completely. You could have been 95 percent of it. I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe I'm wrong and still like getting yelled at, but then getting apologized to afterwards is like still exactly this bad. I can't tell you that because I don't have that information, but it feels like it would be a lot better to me. It feels like always having that dark fucking eye of Sauron out there that once he got mad at you, then he left and he had no fucking idea what was even happening. And if he was just mad at you forever, that's so much worse. That's so much fucking worse. And I really do think that even if parents like maybe me, when we're stressed and we're anxious and we might accidentally snap at our kids, I really don't think that it, taking the time. And by the way, and this is why, Tom, what you said made me think of it. There's also a version of that that is, hey, let me explain why it was okay that I yelled at you. And that's not it.

0:35:37 Thomas: Like, that's also not it like, hey kids, see, here's the thing.

0:35:41 Eli: You made me, right?

0:35:41 Thomas: You were being loud or you were. Yeah, exactly. That's also not it.

0:35:44 Eli: And that's the boomer version of that apology, right? 'You know, gosh darn it, you just make me so mad!'

0:35:46 Thomas: Yeah. It's like slightly better. Yeah yeah. Not that, but to actually say, Hey, that was wrong. I'm so sorry. That wasn't okay. That was my brain having a really bad brain day. Sorry about that. That kind of thing. Like an actual acknowledging that you made a mistake and not just explaining why it was okay that you were a piece of shit.

0:36:08 Thomas: I really think that has to make a difference. I have to believe that just based on, again, I don't have the experience of the alternative, but as a kid, if I'm trying to envision that life, which is so foreign to me, it feels a lot better as if my dad would have done that

0:36:22 Tom: I think about this too like when it comes to like emotional self-regulation I there's a contradiction that I think we all have to find a way and I've been thinking about this a lot we have to fight a way to be comfortable with which is I think it is very much the true facts that every time you lose your temper, you are in the wrong for having lost your temper. But I think it is also true that as a human being, you're never going to reach a level of perfection around emotional self -regulation. So every time that I poorly self -regulate emotionally, I'm like, okay, that's a chance for me to change something. I got to figure out what caused that. I gotta try to do better next time. I'm going to try to think about what I can do better, feel about what I can next time, and I also am going to recognize there will be a next time there will be our next time but every time I did it, that was a failure, right?

0:37:07 Eli: Yeah.' "'Yeah,' because you're, yeah.'"

0:37:12 Tom: Every time I do it, there's a failure of mine, right and I have to try to get better.

0:37:16 Eli: And your kid is gonna lose their temper, right?

0:37:18 Tom: Yes. Yeah.

0:37:18 Eli: Your kid is going to have that moment, and if they see you bloviating and blaming and turning it into about other people, punched my kid in the face this morning.

0:37:25 Thomas: God, I just remembered Eli I'm so sorry because I want to give real experience to that I just No, I just remember Lydia just told me while I was trying to still wake up because I had a horrible flight last night no I'm just kidding

0:37:37 Eli: Yeah. Was that, was that you? Okay. Sure.

0:37:37 Thomas: I uh very exhausted uh but she just told me and I just realized when I came downstairs she's like it was so cute she said and she said in front of the kids she was like Phoebe and Arlo had a fight but then they were so nice to each other and they apologized and they made up. And I'm realizing right now that that's not a thing that I did with my siblings. And I really really think it's because of the example that was said. I know that in theory that we probably think that but like I really think I really feel that because the example we were given was a person who fundamentally could never acknowledge they were in the wrong ever ever. And so any time that we had conflict it had to be through the lens of how am I still right how am I still how's this still fine that I'm mad and this is whatever and it's like it makes it so fucking hard forget being a parent just in relationships that's impossible you know and then you know those people are out there where it's like you have to resolve the conflict in a way that's still them being completely right and not losing any face and it's like fucking this is you know it's like fine I'll do this so that we can maybe still have a relationship but it sucks that like people can't acknowledge that that's the example we were given and I'm realizing Like, I cannot remember a time when my siblings and I, or any of them, if we were fighting, that we apologized in a real way and it was like an actual interaction like that. I can't remember a Time. Meanwhile, my kids are doing that all the time. They get mad at each other, but they have that example of actually apologizing and taking accountability. And I'm blown away at just the fact that I'm realizing this now. They do that. It's amazing. Amazing.

0:39:13 Tom: Yeah, I'll throw this out there too. One thing that is not okay is being okay with your inability to regulate your own emotions. A lot of people are just like, ah, it's who I am. I'm a guy with a short temper. I'm just a guy without a short temperature. It's just who I'm. That can be who you are. Like, we should know who we are as people. That can who you you are, but you have to work on it, right? Because you're interacting with other people that need you, especially when it comes to your kids. But like you said, Thomas, also in relationships, we have to be okay with saying like, all right, I am, this is something I struggle with. Here's how I'm going to try to get better because I owe it to the people I'm interacting emotionally with and I'll throw this out there too like if you are a person who's like yeah I just cannot self -regulate you should rethink having kids you

0:39:23 Eli: I'm an asshole. Oh yeah. Yeah.

0:39:56 Tom: Should like you a hundred percent should be like I just am a person who shouldn't have kids if you are a person, who's going to say like I have an impossible time I am not going to get better I am not going to work on this you should not have kids you just shouldn't have them like and if you have them you should give them to someone else I

0:40:12 Thomas: So you're telling me the person who doesn't have enough self -awareness to realize that they can't handle that is going to have enough self -wareness to say I shouldn't have kids.

0:40:12 Eli: Maybe. I think sometimes people don't realize that can be a permission, right? I think for so many people, having kids is just the logical next step that they forget get like, oh, I actually don't have to continue this. I mean, for years, I did not want kids until I met Anna. Vehemently, vehemently did not Want Kids Until I Met Anna because I didn't want to pass on the depression gene. My grandmother had this. My mom has this. The chances of this getting passed along seem pretty high.

0:40:20 Tom: Don't know.

0:40:23 Thomas: Maybe. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah it's really scary.

0:40:50 Eli: Statistically, I think I shouldn't have kids. And then another episode, I can talk about why I eventually changed on that and why I decided I did want kids but like that's a perfectly reasonable thing if you're not in a place to be able to do that if you are not in place to take care of yourself then yeah focus on you fix the basic function before you bring someone else into the mess yeah

0:41:09 Tom: I remember we talked about this as one of our first episodes. Like, I think you shouldn't have kids if you don't think you're going to be able to be good at it. Like if you don't think you're going to be able to be good at being a parent, then that's like you should stop. And if you can't handle your own emotional responses to things, well, like I'm not blaming you for it. I'm not saying like you're bad. But what I'm saying is like, maybe you're a person that says like, hey, this is a level of emotional responsibility that's irresponsible for me to carry. And I don't know that people think through things in those terms, but I think that we should. I think they're actually really important ways to think through things before we decide to carry that emotional responsibility for somebody vulnerable.

0:41:45 Eli: Completely agree

0:41:46 Clip: DEAR OLD DAD

0:41:52 Eli: All right gentlemen, before we go I'm trying to remember what the French word for white is but drawn a blank depends on how elastic your rectum is

0:42:50 Thomas: Never get tired of seeing someone trying to shove soft spaghetti up their ass. I never got tired of it.

0:42:56 Eli: And much like Adnan I did it this

0:43:00 Tom: Like the garbage can on trash day, right? At some point, you can't jump up and down anymore on top of it, and then your aorta bursts.

0:43:08 Eli: One kills your dick but But in a good way. Carnies and their slick tricks and their unwinnable games of chance. That's who I'm after.