How Do the Good Lawyers Not Burn Out?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:00 Clip: You must never, ever give up or give in. You must keep the faith and keep your eyes on the prize. That is your calling. That is you mission. That is moral obligation. That is mandate. Get out there and do it. Get in the way. Change happens because people care. The people have the power to make this life free and beautiful. To make this live a wonderful adventure.

0:00:38 Clip: I still believe with all my heart, America can be a place where no child is left hungry, no community is left behind, and no one gets told they don't belong. Country is always worth it.

0:00:56 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Opening Arguments. This is episode 1169. I'm your host Thomas Smith and got a fun one for you folks. You may remember from me announcing last week a few times that we did our first Matt and Thomas live Q &A. And you know what? Actually, no, we didn't because what we actually did was our first. Matt, Thomas, Lydia, Olivia and Liz Skeen Q &A, which is way better, markedly better than the first thing I said. There were some real questions. Really cool questions like Matt and Liz talked about burnout and how they deal with being Being lawyers who do work that, frankly, I mean, is really hard and is really draining and they deal with is really insightful stuff that I know so many of the lawyers listening and even other people who are having a hard time with burnout. Think it's great stuff. Great advice. Interesting. And that's just, you know, one of the sections. There were some really good questions. We got into some cool stuff here. And while are super glad that we had a nice crowd not nearly enough people heard it so I wanted to make it today's episode call in a bit of an audible because uh I just think it was it interesting compelling stuff and I want you all to hear it so that will be today's episode and note it was a live Q &A so it's live it not the usual highly highly edited OA recording. It's, uh, it's live and loose. A lot of people have said they would like this sometimes, and we're thinking about incorporating more of this and more meaning more than zero. Don't worry. I still have a hard time putting out stuff that's not edited. It's something I struggle with because I really always want to make stuff sound, uh and precise. So it's a struggle for me, but this is a nice change up. And so we'll see how we like this. And maybe we'll do some more live video type stuff in the future that can be episodes as well. It was certainly a lot of fun. We love getting to actually interact with people in the chat. Can be lonely just speaking into a mic by essentially. So it's really fun. Anyway, thanks so much to the patrons who made this happen at patreon.com/law you can sign up there can you get the goodies you get the no ads or you cannot get the ads would be another way to say that you again, just a big thank you. Right. Without further ado, here is the live Q &A from Sunday with

0:03:08 Thomas: Okay, we can start the stream, everyone! Hi! Well, this was great! Thanks so much for coming! We got, oh, cool! We've got a decent number of viewers, we're going to answer some patron questions. We're going to definitely also answer questions in the chat, because why not?

0:03:26 Thomas: And adjust the fonts in chat. Yeah. Okay. So this is great. We can interact.

0:03:32 Matt: Might have somebody backstage, hun.

0:03:35 Thomas: Holy crap hold on hey you're in hello how's it going Liz can you hear us yeah this it's so great to have you here. Hey, Liz, how are you doing?

0:03:41 Matt: It's us. Yes. Can you hear me? It's good. It's so nice to see you today. What are you drinking?

0:03:52 Thomas: You too. Too.

0:03:53 Matt: I saw you have a little glass. Oh, yeah. It's 6 o'clock, so rosé. I just came from, so as some of you may know, we might actually not get a terrible mayor in New York. So I just, I've been out all day canvassing sing for my my friend uh Zaran Mamdani and now I now it's time to drink rosé nice I saw him on um subway uh hot takes or whatever that channel is yeah you know what I'm talking about where they like interview with the metro card thing yeah yeah I saw a little little interview there he did good job yeah he's great he actually might beat Andrew Cuomo like it's nuts yeah yeah well and he like like pointed out um like one of the mailers or whatever it said like paid for by um Michael Bloomberg and DoorDash and I don't remember oh and two other billionaires uh yeah Bill Ackman was the other one yeah yeah all your favorites but I like I want to know what's DoorDASH's deal here like what what is bothering them about Mamdani potentially winning like why are they joining there I'm not actually sure how why they're going as hard as they are yeah I think it's a good question yeah they don't want city-run grocery stores yeah no and they want to not pay their workers yeah yeah that's true they poured a lot of money in california to um avoid I don't even remember what prop that was now the contractor one yeah yeah

0:04:32 Thomas: Way. Oh God. Fuck that guy. Yeah. So, uh, what happens when you get a good mayor? Is it just not, are we just celebrating not a bad thing, which is great. I love that. But like, is that gonna, what, what I mean, I have to imagine being mayor of New York involves control of like quite a bit of policy that's gonna affect people's lives. Like, is there anything that you think he's going to be able to do that's going going to make a real difference kind of like right away or I don't know like what do mayors even do they just get keys to the city and I don' know wow

0:05:43 Matt: Mean there there are a bunch of things he can do I mean first off I mean he has the ability to I mean has theability to um um, engage in some taxation. Uh, I mean, his big ideas and one of his big ideas, which is pretty achievable is, um, free buses. Um, that's like within the ability of like the New York city budget to afford that. It's a little less than a billion dollars, which we can apparently do. Um.

0:06:07 Matt: And it's cool because like that would be, it would be if our buses were free, they would be much faster, right? You wouldn't, they wouldn't be stopped for everyone to like just collect the, you know, fair and stuff like that. And we just create a much more accessible uh you know transit system for everyone so that's one of the ideas he has um he the other thing he can do is he actually controls the rent guidelines board so something like a third or maybe a quarter of housing in new york city is uh subject to the red guidelines board. So he one of his big campaign promises is a rent freeze because under eric adams they've raised the rent uh the rent guidelines board for rent stabilized apartments apartments at the annual maximum every single year so he's full -on we're freezing the rent and then basically housing policy like in terms of like building more affordable housing um one of his big initiatives is to you know try to make sure to have like several hundred thousand more affordable units being built and making sure that like kind of cutting through the red tape of like zoning

0:07:06 Thomas: I love the idea that there's like a national like you know meeting of mayors and you know whoever's mayor of New York City and like the mayor of my hometown with four people is like we do the same job we got the same pretty much the same we're both mayors I'm a mayor you're a mayor it's like mayor of new york city is yeah a billion billion dollar, you know, can just do that. Like maybe that's, that's crazy. It's like being probably, it's probably more than being the governor of some states, I would think. Like, it's like, yeah.

0:07:32 Matt: I've been thinking about this because christine ohm a million people in south dakota that was christine's previous experience besides running a farm I think running the farm was actually harder from what I've read but

0:07:39 Thomas: Well, and killing dogs. Yeah. Is that the dog killer lady? Yeah. Yeah.

0:07:43 Matt: Yes it sure is sure is

0:07:45 Thomas: Good experience.

0:07:45 Matt: And not meeting kim jungle

0:07:48 Thomas: That's yeah. That's crazy. Well shall we look to the Patreons? Hey, not too late. If you go on the Patreon thread, folks, you can pose questions. You can vote on the questions you want to uh see answered what if I do that oh fancy look at that high tech here um yeah so maybe should I maybe I should refresh though because I haven't refreshed in a while so we can see if there's any oh okay so this is oh that looks like the the newest ones are on top okay should I go down to the bottom I wish it would sort by like hearts

0:08:03 Matt: Amazing dang most recent yeah how many likes did mine get did

0:08:21 Thomas: Here's one I might might just go with this one because it's got so many likes right now um is there a way to reorder that let's see you check on your own also maybe you can look and like tell me which ones to scroll to yeah it doesn't I don't see any way to like reorder the comments that's weird normally they feel like they give you that but okay um all right oh no there we go so scrolling down we can do that we can do a survey here and see.

0:08:26 Matt: I get more okay I will kind of ping you yeah let's see oh I only have nine all

0:08:52 Thomas: I only have nine. Get good. Why does it keep going to the top?

0:08:52 Matt: Yeah dang who in this This chat did not vote for my comment. Just kidding. I just want to bug Thomas. That's the point of my question. I do have a few I know I want to answer, but we'll get there. We'll get through.

0:09:00 Thomas: It's like an inquisition now. Okay. Yeah. I'm just, well, I think we should, oh my God. Cool. I think we should first celebrate by anointing the winner of the likes contest and, because it is a popularity contest and we should know.

0:09:18 Matt: It's fine.

0:09:18 Thomas: And it's Chris McCants, right? I think 15 is it. It.

0:09:20 Matt: 15. There we go. I think so. This is a great one for both Liz and I. This is good question.

0:09:24 Thomas: Perfect. I make a point not to commit crimes. Oh wait, I have Lydia here. You read it. I like hearing you better.

0:09:33 Matt: I make a point to not commit crimes, so I don't have a criminal defense lawyer to call. All. I wouldn't even know how to go about finding one. So if I'm arrested for something I didn't do, I feel like I'd be at a disadvantage, especially with a major backlog at the public defender's office. Should I vet defense lawyers just in case I ever need one?

0:09:52 Matt: Wow. Christmas, yeah. Well, first of all, you probably committed three or four federal crimes today, so let's start there.

0:10:02 Matt: But yeah, I mean, good for you for making a point of not committing crimes. We all try to do the same I think uh but I do I do think it's a good idea to know at least one criminal defense attorney and to know that if you're arrested for any reason uh and you might actually know what direction I mean if you know that you like to carry guns around if you like you go to protests uh if you I don't know what know that like to drink and drive I'm not saying that any of those things apply uh you might want to find a specialist but generally speaking it's good to have a lawyer that you know you could reach uh what's your thought on this list I I mean I totally agree I always always um I always tell my friends or any connections of mine um just you know I'm always available if something comes up and you know oh there you go liz is always available

0:10:07 Thomas: Braggy, but yeah. Yeah.

0:10:42 Matt: Everyone so yeah just reach out to me um I'm always available but actually I mean if you're not in new york city it's I don't know how helpful it can be but um I you know over the weekend I actually handled like something where a friend of a friend got arrested for basically a fight with like someone who it was a moving situation there was a lot of honking there were and this my friend was was punched my friend's friend was punched oh wow and uh and then stabbed but my friend punched the other guy so it was the whole thing like you'd be surprised how these things happen and like I also think that police are not exactly police are you know I I I'll hold back on some of my my thoughts on my worst

0:10:44 Thomas: Asked and answered. Wow. Why?

0:11:21 Matt: My more intense thoughts well yeah police are very good at their job and so they show up in a situation and they just kind of make arrests and it's very reactive it's not based on real investigation and so if you can find yourself being arrested point being it is good to have to know someone or know someone who knows someone who's a criminal defense lawyer and I think that one of the things I also see is like some people hiring some really not great criminal defense lawyers that don't have much practice so my advice to you is see if you can find a public defender in your jurisdiction ask them who their go-to phone call would be because that is your criminal defense lawyer um because I could always I have three people that I would list that if I were ever arrested because I don't get a public defender unfortunately I almost do I'm almost that badly paid um who I would say this is the person I would call

0:11:58 Thomas: Interesting. That's interesting. But in the meantime, like most importantly, just don't say anything, right? Right. Like that's the one piece of legal advice. I feel like like we give out consistently. Just do not talk to these assholes at all.

0:12:16 Matt: Don't say anything do not talk to the police and say that you want a lawyer it's actually a more powerful invocation than saying that if you say I I'm invoking my right to remain silent they can come talk to you again a few hours later be like what are you really if you said I want a lawyer they can't talk to me after that and anything you say is yeah yeah the lawyer's most important role is probably just going to be showing up and saying my client's not saying anything let's go home yeah and which is I've got two two layers on call that I can have that dude that for me the two of my best friends so easy stuff

0:12:35 Thomas: There's just no upside. Oh, can I get be technically a lawyer just to do that job? Like just call me, but he he's not saying anything. Shut up. Get out of here. Not talking. And that's all I do. And then like someone else can take over for the actual law stuff, you know, a

0:12:55 Matt: That's an easy bill easy bill you'd be very good at that no it is like thomas it is truly the best and like I I appreciate that you like that I will just share an anecdote that as some of you know I'm a big raver and one time I was at a rave and a friend's brother got arrested and I walked out out of the rave wearing something interesting and uh called like the 19th precinct being like mr smith is represented by council you are not to question and then walk right back in oh my god I love that

0:13:09 Thomas: Rave. Liz this is great oh check this technology Liz Skeen rave lawyer I love that good times all right uh let's see did we we've got one that is we got I think nine is a good one that I see oh where's the 11 is it yours you have to say if it's yours Oh, there it is.

0:13:33 Matt: My dream open market all right what else we got another one that's 11 11. 11 is it's not mine. It's right above mine. It's from Graydon Armstrong.

0:13:52 Thomas: Yeah, it's right above this totally pathetic nine heart question. Graydon Armstrong says, are we ever going to get tea on what happened with the show stealing or by now you're just wanting to leave that behind you? No, I just talked about that today. I mean, I've answered this question a few times and I don't blame people for asking it. It's so fucking difficult to keep up with the shows in order to pay off the massive of legal debt and also find a way to tell this impossible traumatic story in a way like it's just it's really getting hard and I'm not I don't know I'm getting to the point where my idea today was like maybe I just need to start having like mondays be that like I literally just need to start doing it as episodes because I can't I can'T catch up otherwise it's weird but I don'T know what else to do so I may look to do something like that um I'm trying to believe me I probably probably it probably cost me just the just the ability to talk probably cost me $150 ,000 on top of everything else like just that ability because we would have had a deal if I agreed to not talk in like December and I wouldn't agree to that and so it went on for another fucking what was that four

0:14:24 Matt: In a way that makes sense. And yeah. Wow.

0:15:07 Thomas: Or five months and it could be more than that honestly in terms of the money and so it might have cost me that much just to preserve my ability to talked so believe Believe me, I want to, and I'm trying to. It's just, it's a really difficult thing to do. It really is. But I don't know. We'll talk. We'll see if, I don'T know, maybe I was going to run that idea by Matt and see what he thought. But we'll do that. We'll dothat off air. But believe me ,I am wanting to do that, oh, I like that version better where we're on the side. Look at that. Plus, there's a real hierarchy here that I can see being established. Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Olivia above. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

0:15:08 Matt: Yeah. Three or four or something like that. I

0:15:47 Thomas: Is is this is this a nine heart question?

0:15:47 Matt: Was about to say, I was like me above the lawyers. There's a couple of nines.

0:15:53 Thomas: OK, well, tie goes to the person not in my.

0:15:53 Matt: So not me.

0:15:56 Thomas: Yeah, not married to me.

0:15:57 Matt: I think there's another nine. Oh, yeah. Drew Vogel. I

0:16:01 Thomas: Drew Vogel, can you explain why Mahmoud Khalil can. Oh, why am I reading? I keep forgetting. You've never been here for one of these. So I keep forgiving you.

0:16:08 Matt: Know.

0:16:09 Thomas: You read, please.

0:16:09 Matt: I'm always watching the kids. Can you explain why Mahmoud Khalil can be held in detention in Louisiana while he's expected to be in court in another state? Doesn't the right to confront witnesses require the justice system to facilitate Mahmood being in the courtroom? Facilitate in the genuine sense, not the BS Supreme Court Abrego Garcia sense.

0:16:30 Thomas: Interesting.

0:16:30 Matt: And then he had been released since that comment or question was posted. Amazing news. That was a great Friday. So yeah, he doesn't actually, there's no constitutional right to anything in any of this, because he's in the immigration court. And because the court that I think you're talking about is in New Jersey, is for habeas. And so they were doing a habeas review of his custody in New jersey, because that was the last place he was held before he was transferred to Louisiana. So he's an immigration court in Louisiana. I mean, he's now going to be, they're going to transfer venue back up to New York, I believe, where he lives. But at the time, he was in Louisiana in immigration court, and they were holding habeas proceedings which honestly are much preferable that's where I want my habeas proceedings

0:17:06 Thomas: People are having a hard time hearing you. Put the put the mic in the same room you're in.

0:17:09 Matt: There we go oh this

0:17:11 Thomas: Also, no. Can you put can you point it? Yeah. Can he turn it? It looks like it's just pointed away from you. I think although the cameras can be deceptive. So.

0:17:13 Matt: Again I'm an audio professional okay is that

0:17:21 Thomas: Oh, that's. Oh yes.

0:17:21 Matt: Better all right yes it's

0:17:23 Thomas: That's way better.

0:17:24 Matt: Just getting in front of the microphone you're saying it's the secret after 15 months okay somebody should have told me that

0:17:27 Thomas: You know, when you take a picture with a camera, you usually got to be where the camera's pointed. It's like that. But sound.

0:17:35 Matt: Uh anyway so the short version is that these are habeas proceedings in new jersey the last place he was held he's an immigration court in louisiana And there is no constitutional right to anything because none of this is criminal. So he doesn't have any right to be in the courtroom with anybody. And there are no real trial proceedings. They're just kind of doing a habeas review. But yeah, we're going to have to talk about what happened with all that pretty soon here. It's all came out in the last couple of days. So it's good news. Definitely. Yeah, very exciting.

0:18:03 Thomas: Okay. Should I look for that other nine?

0:18:07 Matt: You're just trying to avoid my question.

0:18:08 Thomas: No, I'll answer it.

0:18:10 Matt: I like Lydia's questions. You should do it. Okay. In honor of

0:18:14 Thomas: Oh, you read it. You should read it. Do an impression of whoever that is.

0:18:18 Matt: Thomas's favorite show's 10th anniversary, Hamilton, what legal case do you think would make a good musical? He hates it. Just so everybody knows. I'm just trying to mess with him.

0:18:28 Thomas: That's whatever. That's fine. I love the Paul's Graph. Did we make that joke before? God, I feel like we might've made... Yeah, Paul's Graph Musical or something.

0:18:35 Matt: The Paulsgraf musical? That'd be pretty funny. That's so fun. Anytime. Yeah. Yeah.

0:18:40 Thomas: There was something about that. Oh. There's a lot of good answers. Oh here, Here, let's get, we got some good, oh, here, I'll put it back up. There's some good follow -ups. Paul's graph, someone says McCulloch v. Maryland. What's that one? No one? Olivia, what is it?

0:18:53 Matt: I don't know. It's been a while. Good

0:18:56 Thomas: You're top in the question pecking order here. McCullach v.

0:18:56 Matt: Girl. It was something to do with the Bank of the U.S. If you hear any squeaking, that's my dog, which is something that... I would want anything involving Rudy Giuliani because I would like to see someone portray him on stage.

0:19:08 Thomas: The entire, oh God. Yeah.

0:19:15 Matt: I think it would be hilarious and amazing.

0:19:16 Thomas: So good.

0:19:18 Matt: So I do have a proposal that all three of us are intimately familiar with. I think that People v. Trump would be an amazing musical because it was so silly. The whole trial was so sill. It had so many characters and it was like about something that's so silly I think you could do it there could be some real set pieces in there and like the defendant has to sing at some point like because he never got to talk because he's to have a solo song at some point

0:19:30 Thomas: Interesting. Interesting. I think well I think if you do that the musical Trump never says anything like I think he's just there you know what I mean like he's just there mugging there you know and then you don't even let him speak you know everyone else gets to talk

0:19:43 Matt: Glowering yeah you don't stop the the action and like go dark and have him step out and do a monologue or solo song

0:19:53 Thomas: Nah I also I like the more historical ones that are less painful because that's too I don't I'm not ready for that yet you know I mean likes you soon

0:20:00 Matt: Sure I don't know how we feel about this but you guys have anything I actually think Rudy the Opera would be a really good idea. It definitely is an opera, right? Because it's like this sort of like intense tragedy, like this insane archetype of a person. And then also the costuming, right, we could have like the wig plus makeup dripping down.

0:20:23 Thomas: Well already the dripping hair dye is already like Like that's very operatic, like in the, you know, the lights and the, yeah, man,

0:20:27 Matt: It is. Exactly. And you could do like three acts. You could do him as a U .S. attorney. You could do him as mayor. Ooh, and it could be an Italian. Like in honor of his legacy, like his background. Trumpian. That's good. Yeah. That is really, that's,

0:20:43 Thomas: I think it's tricky because, oh, sorry, go ahead, Matt.

0:20:46 Matt: I was gonna say you have to have a downfall, right? He's got an amazing arc. Right. Yeah. I think it's a really good opera, like a three act opera.

0:20:52 Thomas: I love it. I have a hesitation with,

0:20:53 Matt: I'm surprised I'm like really into this.

0:20:54 Thomas: I don't want, you should cast a terrible singer as him though. I don'T want him to be a good, you KNOW what I mean? Like, I DON'T want to be Giuliani, you Know, like he's got to be like the Giuliani fumbling voice that doesn't, you NOW what I MEAN?

0:21:04 Matt: What if he never sings? What if he what if it's someone yeah exactly you cast an actor like a really really good actor to be him and he never sings he never gets to participate in the singing an opera usually you cast a baritone as the comic part I could see it like a silly you know how like at the end of Don Juan the opera the guy like steps into the gates of hell this is like he goes that far down that he descends into hell I could say something like that but that's a really good call call us you gotta get the copyright on that one quickly it's

0:21:06 Thomas: Cast a non -singer as him. Yeah. Yeah.

0:21:34 Thomas: Matt slowly drifts away from the mic more and more. Just turn. Does it not turn? Just turn it. Just get it.

0:21:40 Matt: Like like every Thursday all right that should be better

0:21:42 Thomas: All right. Somebody tell me what that is better. Thank you. Then what's the next one we should do, hon? Oops. We're getting some.

0:21:48 Matt: Let's see I there's a sixer you want the sixer I

0:21:56 Thomas: Oh, I think mine might have refreshed.

0:21:59 Matt: Have a couple sixers what's good all right Mike Copen asks what are your rights as an american citizen when you cross the border if someone is coming from england and you have a u .s passport what are your rights uh well you have a us passport so we're stuck with you we have to let you back in but we can also hold on to you for a while and ask you a bunch of questions which you shouldn't answer you should absolutely and I'm fully prepared for this if it comes down to it I have lots of questions for them but I won't be answering any questions but yeah they do have to at the moment let you go again I do a lot of international travel

0:22:00 Thomas: Well, okay. Yeah. For now. Oh, here. I have

0:22:34 Matt: So like I actually consult with matt yeah before I'm like matt like I'm like on signal b what do I do but don't don't take your phone and don't take your devices that's if you're at all concerned about having a copy kept for 15 years that's my best advice remains my best advice so yeah yeah burner

0:22:34 Thomas: More of a comment than a question. Yeah.

0:22:52 Thomas: Are we still thinking, like, if somebody's coming to visit from abroad, Matt, do you recommend the whole, like... You know, trick phone thing or whatever? Like, what do you think about that? Was that real?

0:23:02 Matt: Phone depends who you are I mean yeah

0:23:06 Thomas: Yeah, if you're just a normie.

0:23:06 Matt: It yeah if you just if you don't think you've got any reason you know that they're if you if you don't if youre not on social media at all and you haven't had much to say then And it's really not much of a thing, but I don't know, a lot of us. And also, if you're not carrying around valuable client information, I mean, I always have Outlook in my phone, right? And you can get everything. So you got to look out for that stuff.

0:23:26 Thomas: How do you do, fellow human? Greetings, Ian.

0:23:28 Matt: Hi, Ian.

0:23:31 Thomas: Wiping their phones. Yeah, I don't know. No, because I saw the thing, if you wipe the phone, because if you don't actually, you know, live here, they can turn you away, right? If they're like, well, clearly you've got a burner phone, so you must be, you now, fucking Al -Qaeda, so, or whatever, younow, Antifa. It's more like that now. You must be Antifa, soyou don't get to come in.

0:23:45 Matt: Trying to sneak something, yeah. Turn you around for pretty much anything if you are just coming on a tourist visa or on a visa waived, including your opinion of the president, apparently. That's come up a few times now. So that's cool. I don' t know. Know. I feel like if CBP TSA saw the collages like through my camera roll, I feel I think that was funny.

0:24:11 Matt: You know, if they are funny. Yeah, exactly. It's like, have a giggle. Snowflake. For those who don't know and are not on Instagram or otherwise, we don't we don' put them out enough. But Olivia has been making beautiful, really fun collages out of our shows every single time. I don't how she does it. They're really cute. Yeah, so much. We got to put this out more, like to more places.

0:24:11 Thomas: They'll look through it, yeah. Oh, on what? Yeah, tweet them.

0:24:37 Matt: Blue sky

0:24:37 Thomas: I think you, do you skeet them, Olivia? You got to skeet him. Feel free yeah definitely skeet them

0:24:39 Matt: Everyone every once in a while yeah yeah yeah I don't know I I get shy because sometimes promoting on blue sky is like just the engagement is is not there I'm like oh I'm I'm shy I'm shy about the collage but I definitely they're really good thank you thank you yeah I'll I feel like I only put them up on blue guy if I have something like snappy to say with them because if I don't like yeah I gotta make sure that I'm keeping the the content quality up I

0:24:52 Thomas: I don't know how any of that works all right uh let's see any we've got a lot of fives I feel like we're oh we do where's the six uh

0:25:13 Matt: Got another sixer um from vehicular man's laughter all

0:25:20 Thomas: Okay start reading I'll see if I can find oh that one

0:25:22 Matt: Right thomas explain in detail gantt chart would be great exactly how you get done all that you get down and further expound on your time distortion of device how it relates to the additional three hours you get as a result of living in pacific standard time daylight time and whether you are maintaining it as a trade secrets or if you have have filed a patent application to initially capture enormous monopoly profits, but ultimately dedicating this innovation to the public.

0:25:37 Thomas: I like the idea that we just always get an additional three hours like every day or something like how's that yeah

0:25:53 Matt: It does kind of feel that way. We live in the future here.

0:25:56 Thomas: It doesn't to me it does

0:25:57 Matt: So yeah, yeah,

0:25:58 Thomas: Not feel that way to of me um yeah I don't know how how do you answer this son um just always working and sacrificing you know family time and living any sort of life or talking to anybody socially

0:26:10 Matt: We don't really get to do much.

0:26:13 Thomas: Just healthy stuff just great just totally good productivity stuff oops I

0:26:14 Matt: We're, we are working a lot. Most of our like time together is spent on computers with headphones editing he's editing something I'm editing something and then I eventually fall asleep because I can't stay awake and Remy's been waking me up at 5 every morning and so then I call it then he stays up for a couple more hours finishing editing and then eventually makes his way to bed I guess I don't know because then when I wake up in the morning he's there I have no idea what what time he went to bed sometimes three sometimes four kind of depends yeah and then I take care of the kids in the morning and then he gets up and starts recording and we do it all over again so yeah it's not great it's not great I'll be I mean I'm constantly impressed I have to say just constantly being in regular contact both of you and how much you're both doing but I do think and it's again this is my first industry podcast experience but I think one of the things that makes a way as good as I think it is is how well edited it is yeah it's incredibly well edited and I don't think it's normal for the host to do that right is that not

0:27:16 Matt: Right no I I don t think it is I mean like I I look at a lot of other shows and and usually they have you know people doing production roles um a lot more and I mean before before I joined it was thomas doing like all of this basically by himself with with like rare are exceptions he would get help um sometimes

0:27:16 Thomas: Donno maybe I'm not sure oh yeah we didn't have as many shows but yeah more

0:27:40 Matt: Um but yeah I mean it is pretty crazy thinking that like we we produce more episodes per days of the month almost every single month yeah then there are days of month yeah

0:27:49 Thomas: Episodes than there are days of the month yeah pretty much, I don't get it. It's stupid. I hope that maybe I'll just soon I'll just die and I don'T have to do it anymore. Great. No, I need to, it's like, there's a constant wanting to catch up and not being able to. And I, you know, I don' t, it' s not, it'S not interesting to talk or complain about it anymore, but that's the reality of where I am and it sucks. But, uh, try, you know, we're, I'm doing my best to, to get caught up, um, someday.

0:27:54 Matt: Then you get to take a break we have a question in the chat asking what I did before I started working on podcasts and it is okay to ask I worked for the state of california I was working at the department of state hospitals so the forensic psychiatric community in californian and I was serving as an assistant deputy director for a very very long title that I won't bore you all with but I was um kind of involved in uh all of the programs and policy changes that we were doing related to a big lawsuit we lost so called stia vetti if anyone's into the psych community stuff it was pretty big

0:28:54 Thomas: It's funny because I know that like institutionally, you know, you were supposed to be mad about that. But I was like, no, I'm glad that you guys lost. And like we're like rooting against the workplace.

0:29:04 Matt: No I I remember the judge part of the order was the judge said like this might be the best thing that's ever happened to you guys um because now it's like leverage to talk to um you know the california legislature and be like you have to give us money to fund these programs because otherwise you know this is what it looks like x y and z and it was basically like people having to wait too long to get mental health treatment for folks that were incompetent to stand trial that was the the basis of the lawsuit that we lost um which is a problem in every single state in the united states from what I understand so and we have considered hiring a producer editor jen we've tried different things that just yeah it never quite works out ends up being more work but thank you yeah but I'm much happier working here than I am and everyone at the state got returned to office orders so um they're all going back four days a week and people are pissed oh really po'd Newsom Newsom just out of nowhere was like everyone has to go back starting july 1st and you know because of commercial real estate interests basically Exactly.

0:29:47 Thomas: That's really tough. OK. And who did that? What great presidential candidate was? Oh, cool.

0:30:15 Matt: Yeah.

0:30:15 Thomas: Cool, cool, cool love that

0:30:16 Matt: Yep. And part of his budget, his budget package was to deny, to basically like reject the salary increases that the unions had negotiated for all the state workers. And he was like, well, we don't have any money. So that's gone. And it was like a measly 3%. It was basically nothing. And she was like, that's where we're going to save money is we're just going to cut that and people were pissed about that so then he could distract from the rto thing I think and uh get people focused on that so ah oh thank you yeah that's such a nice compliment it's so true yeah it

0:30:17 Thomas: Guy. That's my president. Sorry,

0:30:55 Matt: Says when you came on I wondered if your old job involved public speaking because you were so good on the mic from the get -go I grew up doing theater so I think that's that's probably where it's coming from for me but thank you I really appreciate that also learned a lot from thomas over the years so you know been around it a lot

0:30:55 Thomas: What? Oh, here, I can do that. Yeah.

0:31:11 Thomas: Yeah, and I will say I do edit to try to make everyone sound better. I don't want anyone to sound worse. Try to make everyone smarter, unless it's funny.

0:31:17 Matt: I was gonna say you you keep some of my stuff I would love like a thomas edit to make someone sound like dumber you know

0:31:26 Thomas: It's not hard. Anyone could do that, yeah.

0:31:31 Matt: I've been saying though for quite a while now if thomas could just follow me around and edit me all day that I'd be there I'd sound at least 30 % smarter

0:31:36 Thomas: I'd say that about myself. Self. You know, I'm worried. So one thing I've thought of as a solution, actually here, this is a board meeting of opening arguments, people interested in what we're doing. I was thinking we could do, Matt, remember when we were doing the, you know, go through an opinion piece or article or whatever. I love that. And I'm wondering if we could be able to do that. We could do something maybe once, one of the shows a week, and we just agreed this is not edited. And we're like, this is live. Fuck it. We'll do it live.

0:32:06 Thomas: And then didn't edit it and then recorded it without understanding. I'm going to have to cement the microphone to your face though is the only thing. Cause I can't, I can'T be live and be like, Matt, Matt do the mic, Matt.

0:32:06 Matt: Hell yeah

0:32:21 Thomas: Other than that, you'll

0:32:14 Matt: Every 10 minutes just strap it on like a feed bag no

0:32:24 Thomas: See this like duct tape thing. Like, no, um, no it wouldn't be so bad, But I was thinking like maybe that will, but it's hard because I also think that it's been so long since I've done anything like that, like this, we used to do these more that I feel like, and I've gotten more, you know, older and more kids and more things on my mind that I feel like I've probably gotten a lot worse at doing things live. And I do really notice in editing, I'll have times where I edit and I'm like, boy, Matt, I wish you would have told me I made no sense, not to blame you, but like, how did Matt even understand what I was saying here and then I'll have to like fix it and be like I can't believe he even got it that was a miracle you know and so it's like I feel like I notice sometimes when I'm too exhausted or whatever and so I'm a little I'm even it makes me even more reluctant to want to do anything like that because like you just get what what it is but uh I don't know we could we could look into something like that and it might it might reduce the workload a little bit all And there's, there's no shortage, Matt, of bad opinion pieces. Like it's, it's yeah. It'd

0:33:24 Thomas: Be fun to go through those. Yeah, we'll do that.

0:33:24 Matt: Should start collecting them yeah no no good times I'm

0:33:29 Thomas: Okay. The show is brought to you by Fireflies. And are you buried under nonstop meetings and struggling to remember all that was discussed and what was agreed to, what the next steps were, and all that kind of thing? I'm answering yes. I've got the perfect solution for you. It's called Fireflies. It's your AI teammate that keeps track of all of that. From key takeaways to next steps, Fireflies keeps you organized. No more missed details or forgotten follow-ups. AI can be this intimidating thing and there's some definite of it that seem pretty scary. Is something that AI is perfect for. Fireflies is so good at not only integrating across everything you and your team probably already rely on with integrations than 60 different ads, like zoom, Google Meet, Slack. Slack, Asana, and so many more, good at listening, summarizing, and analyzing all of your meetings so that things don't fall through the cracks. That so often to me where it's like, you'll have a great meeting, you got a bunch of ideas, and wow, then the ball is dropped either by, Let's be honest, me or sometimes other people. Fireflies is the perfect solution to that. You can join the over 500 ,000 companies already using Fireflies and start turning your meetings into action. Right now, when you sign up for a yearly Firefly subscription, you get your first two two months free. Just go to fireflies.ai/opening. right, two months free when you go to Fireflies.ai/opening. more time, that's Fireflies.ai/opening.

0:34:59 Thomas: And what do you, what do you got for us? Well, how about this? I'll go to, we can go to the top. Like sometimes like to do that. Go to the more recent ones. Oh, I love it. I've answered this before, but I always love it JW 047. How did Thomas and Matt meet and decide to do this podcast together after Thomas got the the show back yeah um so I've said before I'll say it again and uh matt apologies for embarrassing you but matt is the best and a literal saint and uh he had done the old oa and I guess it kept track somewhat of of the show and he was like literally the only person who reached out the only person out of every all the history of the Show I think everybody else got either spooked either on purpose by Andrew like I know that he did um like proactively talk to people and tell them not to talk to me but also I think some people were just worried about the situation as well and like oh it's a lawyer you know I don't want to get in the middle of this I don'T want to whatever and uh no Matt would just like offered his help you know and and said some nice things and it was just like I couldn't have done it without Matt for sure like I donT know how I I would have pitched the show, you know, cause we had to do the whole controller thing for a while or whatever that was called. Was it called that?

0:35:01 Matt: Looking I'm looking sure yeah

0:36:12 Thomas: No. What was it called? I don't know. Um, receiver. Thank you. The whole receiver thing for awhile. And it's like, all that had to be like, I had to be able to pitch like, here's the show it's Matt and I, you Know, and it's, like, if I, I don't know how I would've, you, know, done that without Matt. I would've had to try to, like find someone to, to practice with, without like reaching out really and tipping my hand at all. Like it's So really a miracle. And Matt's just genuinely a great person that I'm so like just every every week I'm like, man, it's fucking great that Matt is here. Like, it just it's amazing. And I don't say that enough, Matt. And I hope I hope

0:36:13 Matt: The receiver yeah yeah no

0:36:48 Thomas: It's clear and that my that my microphone jokes are always in jest and not.

0:36:50 Matt: I I know we kid because we love yeah no I uh I've got pretty lucky myself I have to say because this is something I've always wanted to do you. And I really could tell that you were going through something. And we ended up having a perfect amount of lead up time, I think, to... I wrote you a whole bunch of memos because that's just my primary form of love language. But basically, we had time to figure out how to do a show a couple of months before and we'd got to practice on SIO. So that was good, too.

0:37:17 Thomas: And what's amazing is, well, it'll be fun to someday talk about in the whole thing. But then Matt had written some amazing emails that we should refer back to because he still had a lot of good ideas that we haven't got to. And then it was like, oh, we have to hand those over in Discovery. I was like well, great.

0:37:33 Matt: I love that idea, honestly.

0:37:35 Thomas: Have to hand over the emails in Discovery I don't remember if we got that far or not. We might have.

0:37:35 Matt: That's so funny. Yeah.

0:37:41 Thomas: But it was, like, okay, there's all the ideas you had. But fortunately it timed around when we had gotten control of the show at least even though we were still in the legal battle. So, uh, it was, yeah.

0:37:53 Matt: I just want to highlight again that Matt proactively reached out to Thomas as opposed to other people where Thomas tried reaching out to people that we thought were close and they just ghosted him. So I just wanted to put that out there for everyone to hear because it's something that has bothered me and continues to bother me. So well that sucks I didn't know that yeah no I just

0:38:14 Thomas: Yeah. One in particular hurt quite a bit. Yeah, and it, and I still held out hope like, oh, now it's over. Maybe that person could, like, reach out. Cool.

0:38:27 Matt: Just seems such a black and white thing to me but yeah what else we got it

0:38:32 Thomas: Well, in lighter news, uh how about this one, hun? It was the asbestos of times. It was is the worst sometimes.

0:38:39 Matt: Was the worst yeah how is this a thing someone talked to me about this I was like wait what we're bringing asbestos back like we're doing that now yeah we're

0:38:50 Thomas: Wait, what's that a reference to? Oh, I thought it was just fun wordplay. What is it? What's happening with this? Hold on. We are.

0:38:54 Matt: Breaking asbestos back I'm serious Yeah. Yeah. They're like easing regulations or whatever, like, cause they don't care. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're, the EPA is re like, because asbestos is banned and the EPA's reconsidering it now. Like if we can call it the EPA. Tony Soprano's got a word in. Wow. Lee Zeldin. Amazing.

0:38:58 Thomas: They really know their market. You know, I

0:39:15 Matt: Like they're bringing back asbestose.

0:39:15 Thomas: Love that like for Trump. Yeah.

0:39:18 Matt: Like I should become a toiler now, like you know, like yeah, mm

0:39:18 Thomas: For their like idiot boomer brains, anything that was old and then people were like, hey, we shouldn't do that anymore because it's It's bad or dangerous or, you know, whatever that to them all goes down as woke bullshit. Like it'll be like, hey, maybe, you know, like smoking is bad for you. No, it's great. It's fucking the woke told you that like all this stuff.

0:39:36 Matt: Lead paint that's going to be next like all this stuff

0:39:38 Thomas: The probably what was the other the light bulbs? The light bulbs was a big one. Anything that's like their entire politics is based on like I used to have a thing and then they said it was bad and I don't like being told things are bad. Bring it back. That's their whole that's everything. That's the whole thing.

0:39:53 Matt: All right and so they ask how does people don't have to know you're an officer interact with the crime of impersonating an officer because if anyone in a mask and an unmarked van can roll up and grab anyone without identifying themselves it seems encouraging to vigilantes very true and And it has been.

0:40:11 Thomas: Matt, I got this. We keep answering this every time. No, I'm just kidding.

0:40:13 Matt: Yeah. Well, I was going to say, three people were just arrested last week for doing that, for impersonating nice officers and doing that exact thing. So it is happening, like starting to. It's inevitable when these things. But we talked about FIOA, the Supreme Court case from 75 on the show on Friday, and how the standard is there's no C -enter. So you don't have to be able to know whether or not they're an officer. If you're interfering, if they're undercover, you're still interfering, right?

0:40:36 Thomas: But you, the getting arrested person has a right to know. Right. Like if they're an officer, they

0:40:41 Matt: You're supposed to. It's their position that they don't actually have to identify themselves at this point. I need to get into that. That's another subject. But yeah, no, I mean, it is. It does encourage vigilantism. And certainly, as we've been saying for months now, in places where people carry more guns in Massachusetts, it's inevitable at some point somebody's going to white knight this thing. I think there's a woman getting kidnapped by a guy driving a van. But yeah. That's a risk they seem to be willing to take. Crazy.

0:41:06 Thomas: Wouldn't catch the great Homan interview on the daily. Really good stuff. Doing doing great.

0:41:13 Matt: God. I can't listen to that man's voice.

0:41:14 Thomas: Doing great work.

0:41:15 Matt: It was. Wow. It was it was that good thanks he's

0:41:22 Thomas: It's great. I mean, I again, I I get I get why they would I get in theory interviewing people from the administration. They are the they are literally in control. It's not like you're platforming them. They're in control of everything. But maybe go a little harder.

0:41:24 Matt: Disgusting sure

0:41:38 Thomas: You know?

0:41:35 Matt: That I mean that's the thing I was exactly that I was just like you just totally like it was all softballs I was like okay well I understand that point about like labor rights and you know okay so that does reduce like well you know wages for U.S. citizens uh -huh I do but how do you feel about like I don't know separating people oh we never separated like it's just it was so many softballs the reporter was so uninformed it was so like again like I mean I'm sorry but maybe like I can't believe that we have to say this but like she should have been tucker carlson him you know what I mean like she could have been like these are the stats these are this what do you know about this you separated this many people like answer it was just I I mean like I would have done a better job interviewing and I don't know I I anyway I just and I'm not reporter and I don't do that it was embarrassing I sorry I'm still

0:42:00 Thomas: It just weaks us. Yeah. Sorry. This is a comment

0:42:31 Matt: Upset

0:42:31 Thomas: After my own heart. Yeah, except for is it demonic tutor where you get to pick any card so you don't have to show it? You know, but yeah, it's the comment. I appreciate you, Hermie. That's a nice set. Yeah. But yeah, it's weak sauce. I don't get what they're trying to do other than just they, for one, welcome our new fascist overload. I don't know. Like, I don't know what they're doing with that. It's just so pointless. And it really made him sound normal. You know, it made him come across as normal. And that guy doesn't seem normal to me.

0:43:05 Thomas: Did we, let's see, do we need another one? Oh, I want this one. Here, do this one, hon. Was that the one you were thinking?

0:43:08 Matt: I have yeah that's what I was gonna do

0:43:11 Thomas: Okay, good.

0:43:12 Matt: From jonah price uh first question what would abolishing ice look like it presumably has some functions that we would want to retain should they go to an existing other organization or should a more narrowly focused replacement be created and then drew chimes in adding into this oh did you want me to read that or no no oh I don't know if Matt has time for this but adding into this either in the Q &A or as a deep dive I would appreciate a historical review of how immigration was enforced bureaucratically and practically prior to the post 9 -11 reorg under DHS that

0:43:31 Thomas: Go ahead. That would be a good, like, Monday deep dive, Matt.

0:43:45 Matt: Would be yeah I'm gonna flag that that's really one to do because it's a really interesting history and on its website site, ISIS history is literally like 1789. There was some immigration enforcement. Like they're trying to tie themselves back to 1789 and then they're like, and then in 2002, and there's nothing in between. Literally. No, but like actually, right? Yeah. So yeah. But the thing is that, and I, you know, it's a fair question. Maybe you're saying that we should abolish something. What are you going to replace it with? How's it going to work? Interior immigration enforcement in the United States is a very new idea. It pretty much is within all of our lifetimes that it's been done anything like what we see now. And it was considered to be pretty unusual for almost all of U .S. history. And previously, the Immigration and Nationality Service was a part of the Department of Justice, and it handled the entire basket of immigration matters, right? So everything having to do with immigration, as the name would suggest, it was naturalizations and all the green card processes, all the visas, everything else. And then you also had an enforcement arm. And the INS had its own problems. And certainly, I'm not saying it was perfect, but part of the Department of Justice said that when you were funding INS, you were funding all of the immigration stuff. And I think part of the main problem where we started to go wrong with all of this was creating a separate bucket of ice, as it were, and funding that

0:45:00 Matt: Bucket.

0:45:00 Thomas: The ice bucket challenge. I agree. It wasn't...

0:45:03 Matt: To abolish the ice bucket challenge, yeah. But I think that that is something I've been saying for a while. It's a real political trap that you create something where you are talking and arguing about how much money should we give immigration enforcement instead of how should we be holistically overall structuring and paying for the immigration system. And it puts everything in enforcement mindset. So I think just in terms of the beginning to that question is reintegrate enforcement functions back into another agency and don't have this rogue agency that is just exists only so that Congress can continue to grow it. Because there's never at any point going to be anybody to stand up and seriously say, let's make this thing a little smaller until something really crazy happens or until it because it's going to get so much larger in the next couple of years. But in terms of the actual enforcement, I think that, and I know there's a difference of opinion about this, but I do think it's reasonable to have potentially something like the function that they have right now that works with prisons. So when you have people that are convicted of extremely serious aggravated felonies that they're shipped directly to removal, because those are the people that Are still going to be removed under any version of this law. But In terms of people going out into the community, just doing immigration enforcement in terms of people creating the system of fear and oppression that we have right now, it has to go. It does not work. It's not serving any function except racial enforcement. And I think everybody can start to see that now. But the very first predecessors of ICE, as I've mentioned on the show before, were literally called Chinese inspectors. And there was something that was just looking for Chinese

0:46:33 Thomas: Jesus.

0:46:33 Matt: People in California. That was their job That's disgusting. To conspic the Chinese. I know. Yeah. Every time you say that, I'm... Yeah.

0:46:39 Thomas: Even your dog is upset about that.

0:46:41 Matt: Did you see Walter? Walter. Walter hates racism. Walter does hate racism. He's a good boy. That's why. He's good boy, good doggy.

0:46:50 Thomas: Um, hey, and Chad, if you have any questions for us, feel free to ask him, but we'll go. This one's a long one, but it's got the five votes.

0:46:57 Matt: Boy. Okay. Would it be possible for all citizens of the United States who didn't consent to our personal data and government systems being privatized to such a degree as it is, the .gov domain is subcontracted, for example, being shared to Doge to sue the government, perhaps even SCOTUS. Reckless disregard for actual harms already done and increased by policymakers on the bench seems like it should be actionable. I know about Article 3 immunity doctrines and all, but that's not in the Constitution anywhere. It's only doctrine, I think. Also, tangentially related, why aren't elected officials and government officials required to be truthful when speaking to the public, not on the floor in debate, at least in their official capacity? I would think the duty to warn and duty to inform comes with their position and alternative facts doesn't excuse the whole who is the head of doge and state department bs in court and elsewhere lately and maybe for high court season one episode two um would love to see real restorative justice implemented for white collar and government bad actors just to have some consequences and reparations from the googles and facebook meta data brokers I'd have charged a per use fee on my data for myself if I wanted to be a commodity bastards thanks deputy hmm it's a big one it's a big question there's a few questions in that yeah there's a lot of follow -up questions I have but first of all I don't think we're able to show harm yet we don't know what the full scale the harm is unfortunately I think it's gonna be pretty bad but we we have to see it play out more but I could see some kind of class action but again you know the sovereign immunity on this I think is pretty solid I don' know that we could necessarily it really depends on what the scope of the harm's gonna end up being um but uh

0:48:38 Thomas: Is it not looked at as just a harm if your data is given to somebody it shouldn't be or whatever? There's no per se or something, just assumed to be? No.

0:48:50 Matt: Not as a private right of action yeah no there could be a violation of other laws but the private right -of -action that you and I that's I think that's the question right is what the public and that's what I think but that's a correct like you know I think you identify a correct issue is that that's The thing is that like our laws right now it's so far behind what it needs to be in terms like it should be considered to be a per se harm like your own personal data your information like given to someone and that's the thing it comes up actually a lot of times with like medical data breaches like it's actually pretty hard to show a harm unless as I say something and not it's not just just your data you know being given to or being violated is not in and of itself considered to be a harm which is right not it seems wrong it doesn't it does seem wrong. There was actually, there was a question I wanted to talk to Liz about that was in here, if I could make a request for a question. Yeah, that's great. It's actually from super patron Katie Herman. And it's a subject that Liz and I have actually discussed a lot that I'd

0:49:35 Thomas: Seems wrong. Seems incorrect. Oh, sure. What is it? The

0:49:50 Matt: Love to.

0:49:51 Thomas: The next one there on the read this one that

0:49:53 Matt: It's actually, maybe it was a sub. Yes, there we go. Q1. That's a good one. All right. Best advice for lawyers fighting the good fight who are also interested in maintaining their well -being and sanity? I think maybe people know, I've been talking a lot about mental health and layering and the particular kinds of things that Liz and I both do that are very, very personal and client -centered and vocational are especially prone to this kind of thing of losing your mind. And I just want to say, I'm going to embarrass Liz now because I have never seen, I won't say never seen but I've rarely seen an example of somebody who's able to balance personal and mental health and work -life workload. Maybe you're just totally faking it, maybe you're actually very bad at lawyering but I've watched you learn we want to do it now we went to watch liz and night court um and I think she she knows exactly what she's doing and I think she works really hard for her clients but she also has a great time and uh has a great set of friends and is really like actually prioritizing her personal life in a way that I think a lot of lawyers forget to especially as we get older so uh would you want to share your secrets I I mean wow matt that was quite the intro thank you so much um I I think for me I think it's It's just important to identify the things that you enjoy and that you want to do. I'm a huge music person. I love electronic music. I love house. I love techno. I find personally that, and I think the thing that can work is you don't have to be doing that, but just things that are sort of immersive experiences, I think are very ways for me to kind of disconnect from the stress in my job. It doesn't, as I say, have to necessarily be music. It can also be an incredible art installation. Something like that just ways to think about how you can disconnect and sort of re -center yourself and so I think that's the key thing and then having you know incredible friends and for me what has become really important is I don't need to have friends in my life that are sort of I mean I don'T but like I've had some people who maybe maybe they weren't 100 % supportive of my work like if you aren't supportive of My work and you know you don't want to get a drink with me and And you're going to kind of argue with me about whether someone should be arrested for this or that. Like, you're not, you know, just cut those people out of your life. If you have a high stress job, you just don't need to have that, you now. And my family has been really, I would say, on the great, great on this stuff. But also when they kind of start to, youknow, they're not as, they are not exactly the same political values and alignment as me. And as they kind start to question things, I sort of shut it down and we redirect, younow. And I think that's important, too. You yeah no that's uh because I I will share that you know in 2017 I had a crash like I did the first year of the trump administration I was doing so many detained cases I was working through weekends yeah um I didn't get to go on to a podcast and tell everybody about it so it was really feeling like very private and you know very like limited um and I wasn't making any money like I just couldn't bring myself to charge anybody for anything so it's a terrible combination of stuff and I went to antidepressants at the beginning of 2018 which I should have done earlier anyway. I'm a chronic depressive. But I was doing a lot of unhealthy things,

0:50:38 Thomas: Was fun you

0:52:54 Matt: As often happens with lawyers. And the mental health study, even in Massachusetts alone, was appalling when they just did a basic survey of how many lawyers drink too much, use too many drugs, identify as having mental health problems. And so it's something I've really been looking out for in the lawyers I know and the people around me and the people that do the work that I do, and just trying to figure out how to pace ourselves selves for the next few years. Um, and I feel like I'm in a much healthier place than I was. And, uh, I think you're an inspiration. So you all are inspirations.

0:53:22 Thomas: Guys are both the best

0:53:23 Matt: It's it. Oh my

0:53:23 Thomas: I just I just love that we have two lawyers that are like just doing good lawyer stuff it just feels so rare you know but liz how do you feel like do you get would you say you avoid getting too like personally like invested in the people you're defending you know because you and you have so so many of them, right? I mean, it's kind of, you know, how, how do you, how do you feel about that? Does it, is it ever hard to be like, oh, this is really hard to separate like the, you know, as a person, how I feel versus doing the job? Or is it like you've done it so much and you have so many, you know, so much work that you kind of gotten used to just sort of separating from it? What do you think?

0:53:28 Matt: That's so great. Yeah. I think, you know, one thing I sort of say is like the first time I kind of have something bad happen in a particular way in my job, it's really like ripping a bandaid off and it's that time is very painful. So, you Know, uh really the first time very early when I started a very unfair bail decision felt terrible you know and every single time you kind of you rip that band -aid off and it doesn't feel good but it kind of it inures you a little bit but I do think it's important I do thank for for the work to have the passion of like what is happening to this person is so unjust and so yeah you know I think that that you can't you can't quite separate yourself from it because I think THAT is what drives you to do it because if that's not what drives you to do it it's it you know it's not the uh money um it's not the you know the the great uh support or you know that I get with an eight it's not that like I get tons of uh support from junior associates um

0:54:55 Matt: So you have sort of have to kind of keep that but you can't it it really is you're constantly on this sort of like you know sort of trapeze line of just like you don't want to be too invested because you can do the work but you don't want to not be invested because you also can't do the work right that's so well said that's exactly right and you know yeah but I was starting to have that feeling and I was starting to creep back a little bit in the last couple of months of like I can't just have a saturday night like I still have to be thinking about this I still need to be doing something but giving yourself a saturday and even a friday night once in a while um you know to actually really not think about an event and that's even been com not not I mean again I love doing the show but it's been compounded a little because I have to think extra about how I'm going to talk about it you know when bad stuff is happening but I found a way to make that fun too um but yeah no that is just learning how to check out and how to give yourself that time you know I just I always thought that was kind of weak honestly but that's really really bad to think that way it's terrible

0:55:45 Thomas: Yeah and it really is this like impossible like like thing you have to like triangulate on. I feel like as people who, you know, as people with empathy who want to do the right thing. Um, and I think this applies not just, you know, to, to you folks as, as lawyers, but I think broadly to people in, you know, movement politics kind of thing is it requires empathy and it requires, you know. An anger at, or at least it just, uh, a drive to put a stop to injustice. But then I also feel like there's something that happens. There's can be the burnout where like, it feels like if, if there's so much, can you even make a difference? Does it even matter? You know, it's like, you have to avoid that. It's like you still have to retain your humanity and your empathy, but you can't feel that way about every single wrong happening at all times. Cause you wouldn't be able to function, butyou can't totally turn it off either. Otherwise you become that like jaded, like, Oh, nothing matters. I can't help anybody anyway.

0:56:41 Thomas: And it's like, it's so hard. I feel like the burden is just so much on exactly the type of lawyers that, that you two are. And like, It's so much easier to just be like, nevermind. I'll just go fucking fight over billions of dollars for some big firms and may actually make money. And you know, it'S, it' s really, it'' s really unfortunate.

0:57:01 Matt: But that in its own way is still crushing which is why I don't do that work anymore more so and I couldn't be happier to switch um on that note it is my parents anniversary and they actually for once gave me a warning about doing dinner with them more than a day ahead so I'm gonna go ahead and have dinner with my parents for their anniversary oh happy anniversary mom and dad

0:57:16 Thomas: All right. Well, thank you you so much for stopping in I suppose yeah well uh yeah thanks liz talk soon all right well I feel like we should go a little longer because I you know messed up the audio for a while so maybe we can answer a few bonus questions uh was there let's see did you want to do the rest of that one or it's kind of a different um the rest that question it

0:57:21 Matt: Thank you guys yeah this has been so fun thanks bye everyone yeah got some other good ones Yeah. Let's see. I have – oh, yeah. The question

0:57:52 Thomas: Goes it might be a

0:57:53 Matt: To – if you live in an apartment building or shared space and are asked or commanded by folks who identify themselves as ICE to swipe them in, can you lawfully refuse?

0:57:58 Thomas: That's interesting then

0:58:05 Matt: Sure. And the same way you could if I asked you. I mean, it's about the same amount of power that I have walking into your apartment building to ask, hey, you want to let me up? No. I means, obviously, you don't. Yeah. Okay. I mean, if they actually do have a judicial warrant, which is almost 1 % likely. Well, that's good.

0:58:22 Thomas: You then you do have to let them in like if they actually show you a

0:58:25 Matt: I don't know if you're just like a, yeah, if you are just an occupant, if you are a superintendent or whatever in the building, you certainly would have to. I don' t know if your just a regular person, if your would have to. Yeah. What else we got?

0:58:31 Thomas: Interesting I like that I

0:58:36 Matt: Let's see. I'm going to switch it up and do something a little lighter. From Professor Flatpack's assistant, what is Matt's favorite book? Fiction preferred, but I'll settle for nonfiction. Could call back to uh what was the flat pack thing I remember that there's a couple of episodes ago but several I don't know I I made some kind of passing joke about flat pack studies uh something to do with sweden but anyway uh so that I really I have a lot of trouble with favorite things uh I can't really narrow down it really depends on what kind of mood I'm in and what we're talking about and what subject is I guess just in terms of overall um man in termsof books that have had an influence on me.

0:58:53 Thomas: Don't know what was that okay

0:59:20 Matt: Hold on. I know I could do this. Okay. Well, first of all, just in terms of fiction, I've read so many books, and I know that I'm just a general nerd. In terms of fiction, I really love the Culture series just as a series, as a world, as an universe, as archetype universe building. I love that stuff. I can't even name a favorite one of those books, but I just really like them.

0:59:22 Thomas: Name a book no I'm just kidding

0:59:40 Matt: But I read, this is funny, it's not by far, now that I know what I know, No. Hold on. I was going to say a couple of different things, but man, this is actually so hard because I have to go back and think about it. Yeah, go ahead.

0:59:50 Thomas: What's happening here what was it can I answer while you think what was it no it's just for you huh no never mind favorite

0:59:56 Matt: Do you have a favorite book? Well, yeah, favorite book. Does everybody else want to read my favorite book ? I've definitely got some good ones. Fiction preferred. Got some great.

0:59:59 Thomas: Book geez yeah oh fiction was that the the preference oh man I mean it's so hard to not just say listening to the audiobook of fucking what's his name reading lord of the rings like how can you beat that like the you know uh what's his name the guy just andy Serkis like you can't beat it it'sそう yeah he does all the way so good at it like I love I spend a probably 80 percent of my brain when I'm listening to that is just just thinking about his performance, I'm like, man, this is so, he's such a, such a technically gifted actor. Like it's so, it's like, oh, every choice that he makes makes sense where you're, you know, differentiating voices. That's a hard thing to do. It's a really

1:00:06 Matt: Fiction preferred, but they'll take nonfiction as well.

1:00:17 Matt: Is it Andy Serkis? Mm-hmm. Doing all the voices. Yeah? Yeah. Voice

1:00:45 Thomas: Hard thing to do reading that many different characters and, you know?

1:00:46 Matt: Acting, too, is like a whole other ballgame. Oh, yeah.

1:00:50 Thomas: And picking a, picking a dialect for them, you knows, it helps that it's, like, he probably knows a bunch of the different, you know yeah and

1:00:55 Matt: It's an art. No, yeah, the culture readings are like that, too. I'm really concerned about AI starting to replace, they think it's normal to replace book readers and audio readers.

1:01:04 Thomas: I hate it though ai readers every

1:01:05 Matt: It is so bad. Yeah, that's coming, though.

1:01:06 Thomas: Time I click on a thing like sometimes I'll go to an article and everyone you know probably know by now that I just have a much easier time listening to things than actually reading and I'll see oh uh read me this you know the button that's like here click this play this article and the minute says like this is an AI thing I'm like no I can't do it I need to hear a human read it. I don't maybe someday

1:01:26 Matt: I need to know somebody got paid to do it, too.

1:01:28 Thomas: Like maybe someday it would be good enough or something. But every time I hear it, I don't, I don't. You can tell so quickly that it's not good. You know, it's weird.

1:01:39 Matt: I was going to shout out, in terms of books that completely changed my life, Harlan Ellison's Dangerous Visions, both one and two. Because again, I was a very sheltered kid. I grew up in a very, very shelter-strict, conservative kind of environment. And I read a lot of sci-fi when I was growing up. I snuck away to the library and spent a lot of time in the library. And Dangerous Vision's just like, yeah, just like that. That's exactly how I turned out, obviously.

1:01:59 Thomas: I always say that about Matt. I

1:02:02 Matt: Got all those mental powers, too, but yeah. But Harlan Ellison is still one of my favorite writers. Real crank. He died a few years ago, unfortunately. But those collections, just the breadth and the variety and the creativity. He edited basically just a whole series. And I love sci-fi short stories. It's still one of my favourite genres.

1:02:12 Thomas: Don' t think I know those ones. Oh, wait, did we talk about Ted Chiang? Did I recommend Ted Chiang? Have you read Ted Chiang ? Oh, so good. I love Ted Chiang. Just pick up any of his, he writes sci-fi short stories and they're the best. God, they're so good, I love that that guy.

1:02:20 Matt: I know the name. I don't think you've mentioned it. Nice. Love it. Okay.

1:02:35 Thomas: Forgot about that.

1:02:35 Matt: Worth a look.

1:02:36 Thomas: Okay. Let's see. Maybe. Oh, you know, one more quick, easy one, Matt, about, you know, the U.S. strikes on Iran. Shad Riley asks, is this attack lawful? We have not been attacked by Iran. War Powers Act authorization for use of military force. If this was an unlawful attack, is there anything that can be done about it? Also, probably no.

1:02:55 Matt: Also no. Next question.

1:02:56 Thomas: Yeah. There is, but not by us. There are by if Republicans decide to have a spine, you know, all it takes.

1:03:01 Matt: Sure are we even good

1:03:03 Thomas: No. Well, I mean, Lydia was like, oh, could he be impeached for this? Every time it's he could be impeach for anything. He could already be impeaced all the time.

1:03:03 Matt: Well I know I know but but it's because of the headlines like marjorie taylor green's pissed and I'm like okay okay right but come on

1:03:14 Thomas: It's just. Again, but the answer is still, if enough Republicans want to, then yes, that's all that matters. Like it kind of sucks that and I'm not trying to go hard on you or anything, but it kind OF sucks that there's no interesting points about that question at all anymore. Like, can he be impeached? Is this impeachable? The only answer is, well, of the people in Congress, does, you know, for the House, does the bear majority want to? And for the Senate, does the, you Know, two thirds or whatever want to convict? That's all. That's literally, it's only that question. It's funny that there's, we've divorced it from any sort of objective measures or even close to objective measures of what's a crime, what's an misdemeanor, what'S a, or what'S a high crime rather. And it's just, do they want to do it?

1:03:31 Matt: Right right yeah yeah

1:03:56 Thomas: That'S literally all it is. Stupid. It's worthless.

1:03:56 Matt: No that's it's a political question always has been uh but I it is kind of a But funny, well, not funny. I mean, it's exactly kind of the point I was making on Friday about how if the media doesn't notice that he's unlawfully extending the TikTok ban, why are we, you know, they're not going to ask questions about, because I haven't seen them even trying to provide a legal justification. They're not even saying that there's anything that they, maybe I haven'T looked deep enough, but I haven' seen anything where they're saying there's a reason they get to do it. They 'Re just doing it. And, you knoW, this is one of the most consequential things that a country can do. And we're just pretending that we can just do it. It also just feels like it, like it kind of just was an idea that happened in his head while he was going to the bathroom like it just feels like totally like there's there was no like actual discussion or coverage or anything leading up to this moment it was just like okay I guess we're gonna do that and there are a few Republicans who really wanted it and I'm sure they got his ear and you know they want to use our cool bombers and do the cool stuff

1:04:49 Matt: I don't know scary

1:04:50 Thomas: I was listening to some coverage that was really about and it's just it's all obvious, but just it was, you know, Trump initially was not really in favor of Netanyahu doing some of these strikes. And then, you know, Netanyahu was like, well, I'm doing them. And then they went over well and then or whatever in the media. And then Trump's like, oh, OK, then I like that. And he just it's like such a just obviously the worst way to do anything. But that's.

1:05:15 Matt: I'm in yep it's ratings it's all ratings based presidency that's how we're doing it that's so crazy so

1:05:24 Thomas: Well, I think we'll probably call it there, right? I mean, unless there's any pending questions, anyone's dying to get answered. But yeah, this was so much fun. Thanks, everyone, for coming. And thanks, Matt. Thanks Olivia. Thanks to Liz. So glad she took the time. A lot of fun. But yeah. I think these are fun. Let's start doing these again. It seems like everyone here had a good time. I had a great time.

1:05:35 Matt: Fun yeah yeah yeah

1:05:49 Thomas: Let me back here next month.

1:05:49 Matt: It was fun anytime always a pleasure I'll be there the questions everybody okay thanks everyone bye everybody bye okay

1:05:55 Thomas: Take care everyone it

1:06:00 Clip: This podcast is a production of Opening Arguments Media, LLC, All Rights Reserved. It is produced and edited by Thomas Smith, who also provided the fabulous intro and outro music used with permission.