SIO483: Jordan Peterson Debated a Bunch of Atheists. So... How Did That Go? Part 2

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:12 Thomas: And welcome to Serious Inquiries Only this is episode 483 I'm thomas that over there is jordan peterson hi that's a terrible wow you don't do him he also doesn't apologize yeah he's you need oh for two yeah

0:00:18 Lydia: Hello sorry I was just focusing on the Canadian aspect I know but I I was trying to think of a Canadian like like typical Canadian accent and

0:00:32 Thomas: It's a it is a very particular thing the problem the problem is not so much the accent as what do you say that's actually an underappreciated trait of really good people at impressions people who are really good at impressions it's actually less about sounding like the person because that's something that a lot of people can do well it's really about being able to say things they would say you know you know and it's hard with jordan peterson so yeah exactly it's so hard and like the what's his name who does the trump that's the best impression of anyone that's ever been done It's been ruined by SNL.

0:00:42 Lydia: Vocabulary, thesaurus. Yeah. Pattern of speech. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, AJ.

0:01:04 Thomas: But yeah, when he used to just do it himself, it was the best. It's the absolute best. Sure there are people who are good at a Jordan Peterson, but I'm not good at that kind of thing. Yeah. So sorry to put you on the spot, but I can't get my brain to think of what that asshole would say. You know, it's so weird.

0:01:21 Thomas: It's so foreign to me. But so, you know, I know, butI try to forget it as soon as I can. So So speaking of that, we're going to check out more of this debate, including we will get to, I will make sure we get to no matter what the funniest thing anyone's ever said. Wait to get to that. We'll do that after the break. We're doing this part two. Make sure you caught part one and I hope you enjoy this. To patreon.com/seriouspod to not only avoid the sad, you can also, you know, comment. Let me know what you thought of this and then kind of give us an indication of if you want more stuff like this or way less of it. You know, let's say either way. So after this break, we'll get on with JVP.

0:01:12 Lydia: Me. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah Yeah. Despite our exposure to it. Yeah that's fair. To expose ourselves yeah

0:02:10 Thomas: Then he another person here they actually do I think a pretty good job um this person takes is hey I think that sometimes words can mean multiple things. And it's almost my Josh point. I could be saying I believe in God and you could be Saying you believe in God, we're talking about different things. But you know, that's just how it goes. And he starts there. And then he gets into some stuff. I'm skipping this one, because like it, it's pretty interesting. And there's a lot of like little snippets, I wish I could just play highlights of, but I don't think it'll make sense without context. But eventually, Jordan Peterson is arguing that like, the only way you can make decisions or know about stuff is because of like conscience and logic. And somehow that means God, but that, does that have to do with atheists rejecting God, but not understanding what does, what Does that have To do with anything? So this one, I'm think I'll skip most of it. I'm going to pick it up here just cause there's some, some kind of fun stuff. We pretty much get into, this is a classic, C.S. Lewis kind of type argument that

0:02:58 Lydia: Only know line which in the wardrobe so corn

0:03:00 Thomas: Exactly. It's the that Turkish delight argument And he just starts doing basic apologetics Which I just want to remind everyone is nothing close to his claim Atheists reject God, but they don't understand what they're rejecting. Is more an argument that like evidence of God is that That people have morals and stuff like, but that doesn't really, you anything within that claim. Right. I mean, how does that he might be moving on to a claim of everyone actually believes in God in a way, even if they don'T know it, which I mean I guess if he wants to say that'S what he'S saying when he says atheists reject God. But then most of what this argument is and this I this think this person does a pretty good job. Most of it boils down to, okay, well, if once again, if God is a rainbow, then yes, I believe in rainbows. You know, like that doesn't really, what does that do? I'm not going to church. I'm Not, I don't agree with all a million other things, you Yeah. Well, and it's not, it's the, again, the important thing is what do we mean? What does the average person mean when they say, do you believe in God? You know? Like

0:03:18 Lydia: They just don't even know it yeah I'm not praying to rainbows yeah yeah yeah

0:03:54 Thomas: What, you a member of that club or not? And that isn't the same as do you believe in fucking rainbows because everyone does and if that's your argument fine but it's just not it's to most conflict about God at all like it just isn'T but sort of the like we can'T have conversations about morality without God existing which I always find to be an interesting argument but we can see where this goes.

0:04:14 Clip: You think people can different their response to some empathically ya is there a mediating principle that can tell you one person who's empathic and another person who is empathic that disagree who's correct. Interesting, yeah.

0:04:27 Thomas: Because he said that we use empathy to answer moral questions, now Jordan Peterson, that's how we got here. Jordan Peterson saying, well, what if two people are empathic, but they have different kind you know, essentially.

0:04:37 Clip: Mean, I think that's where we'd have to talk it out, right? We do that in real life all the time when we have, whether it's a discussion with a friend about the right thing to do in a situation, whether that's a policy discussion about law, right, that's we can converse with each other, think about things, explain our perspectives, and then kind of reach a conclusion, right. I think we do that all the the time. So Elijah, the prophet Elijah defined God in the Old Testament as the voice of conscience within. Okay. That's a definition. So you're saying by that definition of God, I guess this kind of goes back to what I'm saying initially. I'm not defining it. Elijah defined it. Okay. So as Elijah defines

0:05:12 Thomas: What is the point of saying that? What isthe point of seeing this is just being combative for no fucking reason.

0:05:13 Clip: It's defined that way in

0:05:18 Thomas: Why did you bring it up then, Jordan? Well, I'm not saying that. Elijah said it. OK.

0:05:14 Lydia: Know yeah yeah yeah yeah

0:05:24 Thomas: Should I bring up a different person that said something about God or should you just say what you fucking believe? Leave. That's what frustrates me to know it. Just say what you believe, Jordan Peterson. Someone is not going to just say what they think, then what are you doing? You definitionally cannot be actually trying to get at the truth.

0:05:34 Lydia: It's obnoxious yeah yeah okay

0:05:44 Thomas: You're just playing games. Well, I don't believe that, but some say, no, just say what you fucking believe and let's argue about it. That's what honest people do.

0:05:51 Clip: Jonah too. Okay. So as… Cardinal Newman also defined it that way.

0:05:55 Thomas: Is the point of this? Yeah.

0:05:56 Clip: Got it. I'm sure you know many people who have defined it this way. And it's impressive. You're a very knowledgeable person. I'm trying to be impressive. Okay. I'm just pointing out to you how God is defined in the Old Testament. Okay. All right. Right. So to respond to that, I do think there are lots of interesting ways to define God. And that goes back to my kind of opening statement. Then how do we specify what we're arguing about? We use context clues, or we, again, it goes back to my example of the Mona Lisa. I'm defining God as conscience. Okay.

0:06:06 Lydia: You are trying to be impressive.

0:06:23 Clip: So that's interesting, but then you're kind of expanding the meaning of God. No, I'm not. That's how it's defined in the Old Testament, in Elijah and in Jonah. Sure. So whoever, so some... It's not whoever. Elijah is one of the major Old Testament prophets. He's equal in stature to Moses. So it's not arbitrary.

0:06:39 Thomas: It's just combative.

0:06:41 Clip: All right, so that

0:06:41 Lydia: My God. It's so obnoxious.

0:06:43 Thomas: Yeah. There's no, we're just avoiding getting hit by something. Like he's just running around. We're playing dodgeball. That's not how the truth is formed.

0:06:54 Lydia: Like the most condescending teacher that you could ever have. Like when you're trying to, you know, present on a topic or something like that, and they're just interrupting you, interrupting you interrupting you without

0:07:05 Thomas: It's just, tactics. But not, isn't there any truth here. Like, let's look at the implications. If he's trying to define God as conscience, just to pick up that one thread. And then this guy, who I think does a great job, actually, like this guy quite a bit. Greg starts to make the point that I think I would make and anyone would make, which is, okay, you want to define God as conscience. Fantastic. But then you are expanding what God means to the point where it's meaningless, sort of. Guess it wouldn't be meaningless, would but you only use it in certain ways. Like if you want a claim that God means conscience, okay. Then if I go to someone on the street and I say, do you believe in God? God, they are not going to think I'm saying, do you believe in a conscience? They're just not going to. But then he said, this is where the pointless combative comes into play because he said while Elijah said that, okay, that's one of the many, many definitions or not even, I wouldn't even say definition that could just be like a component of it because because it could be that Elijah might've said that but also said a hundred other things. I don't fucking

0:08:04 Thomas: Remember. I mean, that might just be a component of it. Again, the point in bringing Elijah into this? Than But to say, well, then I guess if the Old Testament defines it as that, just I don't think that's true because people who believe in the Old testament don't merely believe that God is a conscience. They don't nearly believe that. So what's, what does the purpose of this? What does this do? Know, and it's just constantly retreating back and forth between word games to to not be pinned down, to never have to say anything. And it's funny because for a moment he does say, I'm defining as conscience. Says that for a second. It's like, okay, well, then you're expanding what the belief is, you just saying God is rainbows and everyone who believes in rainbows believes in God. That's not meaningful. Who is a member of a fucking church and who is buying off Supreme Court justices? Like that's what matters when you talk about religion in this country. There's a bunch of other ways too. Like, what do you think is going to happen when you die? There's a bunch of non -political – there's a bunch of stuff that's just like life stuff that if I said, do you believe in God to any of our friends or someone on the street, going to assume, I mean, something like probably the Christian God in some form that watches over us and maybe decides things that happen every day and maybe doesn't. That seems to be kind of, you know, for

0:09:10 Lydia: They would answer with specificity and say well I don't really believe in like the like you know traditional version of god but I believe in that you know what I mean like like just stripping away all of this language and and and effort we make to connect with people and to understand what somebody believes in also side old testament and god is just conscience then is that indicating that conscience turned lot's wife into a pillar of salt that seems crazy how whose conscience whose Lot's conscience turned her into a pillar of salt or her

0:09:12 Thomas: Maybe. Yeah. It's silly. Boy.

0:09:44 Lydia: Own own conscience turned her into a pillar of salt?

0:09:44 Thomas: Back in my day, it was just Jiminy Cricket was your conscience.

0:09:47 Lydia: So weird.

0:09:47 Thomas: And then the all powerful Jiminy, isn't that how that movie worked? I don't know. It has been too long.

0:09:48 Lydia: Okay, sorry. Pinocchio?

0:09:53 Thomas: It is too scaring. Yeah I thought Jiminy cricket was his conscience or something or somebody's conscience.

0:09:57 Lydia: I thought it was just a cricket.

0:09:58 Thomas: There a conscience in there? Somebody is.

0:10:00 Lydia: Don't know. There's like a blue fairy, and there's...

0:10:02 Thomas: I was four when I I saw that last. Somebody is a, some conscience happens there. Pinocchio conscience, yeah.

0:10:11 Lydia: It's Figaro the cat. The fish. Remember the fish's name.

0:10:15 Thomas: In Walt Disney's Pinoccio, this is AI, but still, Jiminy is appointed as Pinocchio's conscience by the Blue Fairy. Fuck off, I nailed it. I have never seen this movie that I even remember. I saw enough of it to be scared by it.

0:10:22 Lydia: Okay. All right. Yeah. You tried to block it out.

0:10:30 Thomas: But I somehow pulled that out of my brain. And in yeah, back my day, it was just Jimmy Cricket was, Jimmy Crickett didn't turn anyone into salt, but yeah, you make a great point. I don't think anyone in the Bible, anyone believed that the entirety of what God is, is conscience. Not what anyone believed. They were talking to him in their minds like that. Come on. Like, this is what are we doing here?

0:10:52 Clip: Is interesting, but it's not relevant to the context with which I am using the term God. It's directly relevant. Atheists reject God, but they don't understand what they're rejecting. You accept conscience as a guide, and conscience is one the defining characteristics of God in the Old Testament.

0:11:11 Thomas: What?

0:11:11 Clip: I think you're being intellectually disingenuous. In what way? Because I asked you if you believe that conscience guided you. You just asked me a question and then you stopped me from answering it. In this setting, you understand the way I am using the term God and belief. Not in the least. I don't understand how you're using it in the least. That's why I'm trying to define it. My definition of God as conscience is a lot more precise and oriented than your definition of the God that you hypothetically disbelieve in.

0:11:14 Thomas: In every way. It's not your definition of God. I guarantee it. Yeah.

0:11:35 Lydia: Well, he also said it wasn't his definition. He said it was Elijah's

0:11:38 Clip: It's irrelevant to the

0:11:38 Lydia: Definition yeah

0:11:39 Thomas: Yeah. Five seconds ago is Elijah's definition. Is so obviously being intellectually dishonest here.

0:11:45 Clip: Lines of this debate. How is it irrelevant? Because in common WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ATHEISTS, GOD, BELIEF, NOT BELIEF, WE'RE NOT TALK... I DON'T CARE ABOUT COMMON PARLANCE. I'M TRYING TO GET TO SOMETHING FUNDAMENTAL.

0:11:53 Thomas: Well, clearly no, no, you're

0:11:55 Clip: I JUST, I THINK YOUR POINT IS IRRELEVANT TO THE WAY THAT PEOPLE TEND TO USE THESE WORDS. WHICH POINT? YOUR POINTS THAT THERE ARE THESE POLYSIMUS IDEAS OF GOD. I DIDN'T MAKE THAT POINT. YOU DID. WELL, I MADE A SPECIFIC POINT THAT GOD WAS ASSOCIATED WITH CONSCIOUS. I JUST FEEL LIKE YOU KIND OF RETREAT INTO THIS SEMANTIC FOG. I'M NOT RETRETING AT ALL.

0:11:55 Thomas: Not interrupting.

0:12:12 Clip: I'm advancing, sir. You are retreating. Okay. All right. Well, it was very nice to meet you.

0:12:13 Thomas: So true. No, it's so stupid.

0:12:17 Clip: Yes, nice to be with you too. I appreciate the conversation.

0:12:13 Lydia: My God. Semantic

0:12:18 Thomas: So that's the time on the first thing.

0:12:20 Lydia: Fog.

0:12:20 Thomas: I'm, I'm advancing your retreat. No that's nothing. None of this is anything. Yeah. Yeah, Greg nailed it.

0:12:21 Lydia: Man. That's such a good visual. Like, yeah, you're retreating into semantic fog that

0:12:28 Thomas: That's what happens. How stupid is this? This this is so.

0:12:33 Clip: Feel like you kind of retreat into this semantic fog. I'm NOT retreating AT ALL. I'm ADVANCING, sir, you are retreatING. Okay. All right...

0:12:40 Lydia: Advancing into the semantic fog is that what he's saying yeah

0:12:44 Thomas: Yeah. Does What that fucking mean, Jordan Peterson? Than it's just macho language trying to signal to anyone who doesn't care what's actually happening. They just care about impressions that you're some macho guy. I'm advancing your retreat. It doesn't work on any of these people. They're all laughing at it. They're like, that's the dumbest fucking shit I've ever heard. That's nothing. I'm enhancing your retreat? No, he wasn't retreating. He was trying to answer your questions the whole time. In what sense was he retreating at all? It's nonsense.

0:12:49 Lydia: Good yeah also like is very telling that Jordan Peterson like the word that he focuses in on that is the retreat instead of semantic fog I would like if I'm an intellectual I would be much more bothered by saying that I'm, you word games and I'm you know just spouting nonsense.

0:13:21 Thomas: Yeah. Not the Semitic fog. We're not playing Jenga. You're saying we're playing J tenga? I'm not playing jenga. You said game. Game. Poker, basketball is a game.

0:13:33 Lydia: But it's like like why why didn't he take the chance to you know go after that piece. He's only focused on this like hyper masculine like the the connotations of retreat in advance.

0:13:50 Thomas: Running the clock because nothing, it's actually argue on good terms ever. Now we get to the next claim, which I already forgot what it is, so let's see,

0:13:54 Lydia: Dance oh my

0:13:58 Clip: It WAS very nice to meet with you. Yes, it's very brave of you to do this. Thank you.

0:14:05 Thomas: Very brave of you, imagine having that opinion of yourself, he

0:14:09 Lydia: It's very brave of you to try and come up and talk to me that's

0:14:12 Thomas: Is so fucking full of himself, so fucking filled himself, were, they all were, yeah, I might skip this entire one, because I actually agree with it, I don't think morality and purpose are found within science. And I think the an OK point to make, but I honestly don't I t think anyone should argue with it.

0:14:16 Lydia: I would just be rolling my eyes oh good oh good I

0:14:32 Clip: Next claim is that morality and purpose cannot be found within science.

0:14:51 Lydia: Is it just if like the only two options are science and religion is that like like does it kind of force that dichotomy or Or something.

0:14:59 Thomas: Famous philosophy about science not being able to give you any sort of why. It only gives you a how, essentially. It's this is talking about hume's is ought problem um I is find very, very interesting, which you can't derive ought from is. That's the famous statement. So science can tell you about what is. Science can tell You, you what is this? What is that? How does this work? You know, what is how does fucking anything work? It can't tell you what ought to be or what you ought to do so you can't derive out from his and I actually think it's a pretty sound logical point um in the past I know Sam Harris has argued with because Sam Harris had his his whole, that's when I've talked about this a lot back, you know, 10 years ago, because his whole moral landscape thing.

0:15:44 Thomas: And it's, it's interesting. I think it's a very interesting conversation. I actually like it quite a bit to to think about. It also just doesn't, in my mind, it doesn't matter. Because Um. You can just start with your own ought. And this is, this is where I think this rigid dedication to logic is the problem here because Because it just doesn't bother bother me that you can't derive an ought from an is. It just doesn'T at all. The thing. I fucking love logic. You know me. It's my favorite thing.

0:16:09 Lydia: Mm -huh, mm -hm, mm.

0:16:09 Thomas: Absolutely love it. But think we it's could just settle this 20 minutes without having to go into it. Because I just don'T – I don'T think it really matters. There's I some interesting moments, but ultimately I would not argue with it. Like if I were forced to have this conversation, I would say, yes, purpose can't be found within science to say morality can't been found within sciences. Interesting. Cause I think you could define that in a few different ways. I think he could say science might be able to study a lot about morality. And the important thing is for me, I don't need to derive my aunt from is all I need need to say is, hey, you know what we ought to do? Let's make everyone's lives as better as we can. Reduce Let's as much suffering as we can.

0:16:47 Lydia: I I guess that like my position is why is does it matter if you can't find it in science like then it's derived elsewhere and it doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be from religion slash god like

0:16:57 Thomas: There's a lot of this debate that is very interesting. And I think it does matter if you're trying to, in philosophy, answer stuff in ironclad terms about where we can derive our values and to to what extent we can actually logically prove anything. I think it's interesting. I love that stuff. It's interesting, I think in the real world, it almost never matters, and then sometimes it does. I think there are very real places where this matters. So if you come up to a genuine moral conundrum, like for example, I thing in recent memory, if we were limited in COVID vaccine, should we prioritize old people who are more at risk? Risk or should we say, well, if we give it to young people, they have more of their lives to live and they, you know, like maybe like there's questions like that where you have conflicts and of sort of, yeah, like there are places where there's no clear moral answer and there can be different opinions and it's unsettling to people that you can't just know the right answer and everyone and people want to have their different ways that they find the right answer. Some people go to utilitarianism. And that's a genuine, interesting thing to me. I think it can matter. I think there are very real places where these questions matter, where

0:17:42 Lydia: Various trolley problems kind of thing yeah yeah yeah hmm

0:18:07 Thomas: Were able to scientifically answer that, that would be great. It'd be awesome to be able to answer, hey, do we save one old people or one young person or something? It's like, well, shit, do how many years of life they have left in order to say, say? Would we always want to say it's save more people, but then what if it's a baby versus two people on their deathbed? Would it make sense to like sacrifice a baby for two people on their death bed? Like there's, places there's where it's impossible to like logically derive the one correct moral answer. I think that's interesting.

0:18:34 Lydia: That's so interesting like as you're talking about this this has nothing nothing to do with Jordan Peterson. But just don't engage with this stuff very much. Like the good place is like my my main philosophy exposure.

0:18:43 Thomas: Man. Yeah.

0:18:44 Lydia: Like the way that I'm thinking about that, like if there was like a scientific way to come up to the right answer for morality and like those sorts of situations, I feel like that takes away a lot of beauty of life, like just plug something into an equation or like something like that. And it's like, yeah obviously you you can feel maybe better about like your choice there but I don't know like I appreciate about life is like nuance and conversation and like not always knowing what the right answer is for things and yeah I don'T know yeah no it's just something that occurred to me while you're talking about it

0:19:13 Thomas: I guess. I mean, I think think that's a little tangential. I see what you're saying. Um, in the context of this conversation, what religious people like to do a lot is say, because you can't derive an ought from an is that means you cannot have morality without God. There's just no way you can't, science can't give it to you. You cannot have a morality without God. My, thinking is strictly speaking for first off, Also, God doesn't give you morality. Like there's this famous this thing that it's funny, like is such a world I've been in that you don't know anything about.

0:19:43 Thomas: But there's the I called the euthyphro dilemma which is I and another reason I absolutely love this stuff is because plato fucking nailed this a thousand I say a thousand two thousand fucking three thousand was he something more than two thousand years ago yeah and really was incredible actually like like some of those old thinkers it's it really is amazing like how brilliant they were um plato you 11 billion years ago said said, is something good because God commands it? And actually he said, because the gods command it, because back then, you know, or dothe gods command it because it is good? It's really interesting. So if something is good because God demands it, then goodness is arbitrary. So God could command, you know, murder to be good. And then it's like, well what's the value of that?

0:19:43 Lydia: Know and A long time ago. Yeah, of course. Why

0:20:25 Thomas: God commands something because it's good, then the goodness exists independently of God. So therefore God God is no longer the source of morality. So that Euthyphro dilemma nailed it a zillion years ago. So God also, I don't know why we're talking about this other than what?

0:20:38 Lydia: Is it Euthyphro? Why? Is that a name of somebody?

0:20:42 Thomas: Is it the character in the dialogue? All these were like these Socrates, Socratic dialogue things.

0:20:45 Lydia: Oh, uh -huh.

0:20:49 Thomas: Socrates is talking to a man named Euthyphro. Yeah. This stuff is really cool. That's I, something I loved about, um, know, like my foray into the, the like Catholic bullshit school is like, I do, I wish we did more studying of this old stuff. It Um, is certainly a and kind of a useless thing in a lot of ways, but I, it's really interesting. Like the, of stuff that, you Plato nailed, you know, it's just so cool.

0:21:04 Lydia: I think if you could find a way to like make it directly applicable like things that are actually happening in the real world and stuff I think that could be like super useful but like this for the studying of this is definitely like very privileged all

0:21:20 Thomas: But I think the Euthyphro dilemma is very relevant if anyone ever wanted to think critically about religion because it fucking had God dead to rights 2 ,000 something years ago. Like, it really settled it. Like, you don't, God is either an arbitrary just commander of what's good, in which case, why, the point? Like God could command that murdering your child is good. And then I'd be like, well, sorry, no, I'm not going to do that.

0:21:31 Lydia: The gods not just god yeah yeah

0:21:44 Thomas: Then what is the value?

0:21:44 Lydia: I mean in the name of him it was right

0:21:46 Thomas: Yeah. Or something is good because of reasons outside of God. And this would expect, there's also 2000 years worth of religious bullshit philosophizing on why that's not a problem. You know, like this stuff, there there's plenty of geniuses who put their efforts into that. You know? Like there's a lot of smart people throughout history. Um point is though that is why jordan peterson is saying this because it's classic a classic religious claim to say that you can't have morality without god and therefore if there's no god anyone will do it sometimes it gets really creepy by the way where um this is always a fun one where some religious asshole in a debate will be like what's to stop me from raping and killing everyone and you're like well I mean yeah

0:22:19 Lydia: My god I know like that's not even a thought that would cross my mind

0:22:23 Thomas: Exactly yeah the classic response is like I I kill as many people as I want every day, which is zero people. It's like, well, anyway, all this is interesting. And I think that it is true that you cannot derive your fundamental ought from science, but I think it just doesn't bother me much because I'm, I'm spot the universe one.

0:22:44 Thomas: I'll be like, here, I'll just come up with my aunt because I think pain and suffering is bad. Think its bad. I think we should minimize it as best we can. And the thing is, is so many people who get so caught up in like, well, but what if I can logically show where that doesn't work in this instance? And you can, like, there's just classic problems between consequentialism and other forms of morality of ethics. And those are interesting. It just doesn't matter a whole lot, because when I look at the real world, what I look At is like, Well, if, you and I could at least agree that pain is bad, can we agree that if we can't, then like, I don't, I'll just hit you until you agree like and that's literally true like that's a class another classic response do you believe pain suffering is bad no get him like just start beating him until he says yes and then you've actually weirdly won the argument that way like that'S what's so funny about it it's the one time that you can win an argument by by hitting someone uh it's absolutely true like they will say yes never mind it's bad you'll be like cool we're on the same page um if

0:23:37 Thomas: Once you start with that that foundational ought of let's minimize this because bad, pain bad, then science has everything to say about how to get there. The only way to really study how that works. How do we provide a lot of people food? What do people need to be happy? That's all science. So science does 99 .7 % of the heavy lifting. And then God people are like, yeah, but science can't give you that ultimate ought. And you're like, who fucking cares, man? Neither does God. God doesn't give you it either. You just get to say he does, even though Euthyphro Dilemma just all up 2000 years ago. Anyway, that's the backdrop that Lydia doesn't have because she's not atheist. And that, you know, sorry, because you haven't been in the atheist movement and doing all these arguments and all that. If I had to have this conversation, I, that I just be like, yeah, agreed, whatever. Don't care. It doesn't matter where, would, I maybe ask, how did you get your purpose from God? And he would have a bunch of gish gallop and it would be pointless. But if I were to ask someone like Jordan Peterson, who actually were honest, it might be interesting to try to, because you could ask the question enough times where what they're actually doing is they're just bootstrapping themselves as well. Be like, well, how do you know God wants you to do this? And why is that important? Like, why is it important for you to think? And then they would get to a point where they just have to say, well because God said, I was like, Well, that doesn't that's nothing that doesn't do anything, you know, but anyway, going I'm to skip that whole section. We get to the third claim and this is funny because I think he's realized and I think this is a combination of okay, funny thing happens here.

0:24:17 Lydia: I'm not an atheist? Yes. Yes.

0:25:06 Clip: That everybody worships something, including atheists, even though they might not know it.

0:25:14 Thomas: Bad is that grammar? Everybody worships something, including atheists. I worship atheists? Like, everybody, including atheists, worships something. Why wouldn't you just? He had time to come up with this ahead of time. You were just talking about it, I wouldn't, whatever.

0:25:23 Lydia: Something oh wow yeah off

0:25:30 Thomas: Whatever yeah but like he wrote this down like this is like they prepped them with these questions like this Is what they had to agree on I

0:25:30 Lydia: The cuff yeah okay

0:25:40 Clip: Hi. Good work. Thank you. Hi there.

0:25:42 Thomas: So now a good -looking black woman uh across from him and his entire demeanor changes his well I want you to listen also

0:25:50 Clip: I'm Zena. So I want to start off with like defining terms. Yeah. How do you define worship? Prioritize. Prioritized. So almost like having a preference over something other than the other. It's a hierarchy of preferences. Yeah. And you use it to direct your attention. Right. So whatever you're attending

0:26:04 Thomas: Away you've already defined it into nothingness so you're saying everybody prioritizes something

0:26:09 Lydia: Have to -do lists and I prioritize

0:26:11 Thomas: Atheists do you really think that's saying anything does that fucking mean anything but anyway I'll just let it continue what

0:26:18 Clip: To, you're worshiping. Right. So I've kind of become a little bit familiar with your idea of like this value -laden hierarchy. Yeah. Right. And you kind of posit that at the bottom of this hierarchy, or you call it top or bottom, I suppose. At the bottomof this hierarchy this foundational priority in your life is going to be considered God. That's right. Is that correct? Yes. Right. I'm trying to imagine a situation in which could there be that someone has a priority at their foundation that is different from someone else's? Oh, definitely. Right. Right, so we can have different conceptions of God. That's why we fight. Right. So, essentially, there's not one God, but there are multiple gods, and these gods exist in some realm of truth. Like, it's true that this person has one God and it exists. Yeah, probably better to think about it as multiple values, but that there's a hierarchy of values with something at the bottom. Right, but at the top is God. That's a definition, yeah. Yeah, so at the autumn is God, and there can be multiple people with different conceptations of God, and they're each valid and being called God. So there are multiple gods that exist. It depends on what you mean by valid. So far so good, but it depends on what you meant by valid, because I would say that some foundational conceptions don't play out when they're implemented. So if you put the wrong thing at the foundation, you end up in hell, for example. That's what happens in totalitarian states. Okay, so you're saying - So they're not all equal,

0:27:39 Thomas: Does this have to do with anything I just think it's so I just want to play like how much his demeanor changes and how polite he is and how nice and then

0:27:46 Lydia: He talk over her he lets her finish you know her sentences yeah her

0:27:51 Thomas: And one wild guess as to who he picks at the end to have more conversation yeah not even close he's a complete asshole to all the men and then is just nice as can be very interesting it

0:28:03 Clip: Foundational principles are not equal, even though they might be equally foundation, right? So what makes one kind of foundational tenet like better than another one? That's an excellent question.

0:28:17 Thomas: Cuts to somebody it's actually a black guy looking that I think he was an asshole to earlier that I skipped and it's just like couldn't be more like oh my fucking god are you kidding me right now it's so fucking funny he's so nice to her and does does this have to do with everybody worship something this is all meaningless uh goes on for quite some time they have a lovely chat uh he's

0:28:39 Clip: That's right, that's right. That's good, that great. The thing they wanna be in congruence with is fundamentally equivalent to their God. So what make someone a Christian and what makes someone not a Christian? What makes, like that's what I'm trying to figure out because - That's a good question. Yes. Yeah, well, probably. But

0:28:54 Thomas: So it's so funny as nice as can be um yeah it carries on they're so delightful to each other still we can go to the end here what

0:29:02 Clip: What I'm kind of seeing is like a descriptive a really a really comprehensive but descriptive analysis of human action human thought and by by which we can characterize people and put people in boxes. But I don't see - Why in boxes? When I say in boxes, I mean like I can categorize you based on your actions, not based on necessarily what you say, but based on actions that you were more so or less so Christian, right? Things like that, right. So we can categorized people as Christian. Well, I would say more or less voluntarily self -sacrificing. Yeah, but that's also what we came to though, is that someone can be like 60 % or 70 % Christian based on simply just acting in that way. You know richard dawkins is like that I I watched that today there you've been voted out by the majority very good thank you so much

0:29:44 Thomas: So they finally voted her out she took 14 of the 20 minutes was that yeah so over the top very good really thoughtful so great uh now we'RE just gonna listen and have fun yeah is this is very funny yeah

0:29:50 Clip: Very thoughtful hey dr peterson how are you doing nice to meet you what's your name danny you're saying atheists worship things or people or places whatever um can you just be very clear about your definition of worship again attend to prioritize Prioritize and sacrifice for.

0:30:29 Thomas: What's so just nothing what

0:30:31 Clip: Okay, that's it. That's your understanding of worship. Well, I could flesh it out, but that'll do for the time we have. Okay, do Catholics attend to Mary? Yes. Okay, so do they fit that description of worship? Yes. So you would say Catholics and other people that revere Mary, like the Eastern Orthodox tradition, worship Mary? Well, they might not put her in the highest place. But you would put it that way. No. You just said it. You're taking it back now? There's still a hierarchy okay there's a hierarchy but in within there's something at the top all right you can worship mary's quite a ways up the hierarchy but not at the talk let's let's go over your definition of worship again what's your definition attend to attend to do prioritize do catholics sacrifice for what do catholic attend to um do they prioritize mary over all other human beings no I didn't say over all did I I didn' add that to my understand you understand I said there was a hierarchy as well. So you can attend to something trivially, or you can to attend to it deeply. And now you're adding stuff to the definition, but your original definition - I added the hierarchy part at the beginning. Are you familiar - You just didn't understand it. Are you are familiar with the Immaculate Conception? Why is that relevant? Because you go to a Catholic church, don't you? Or you've attended recently. You're interested in Catholicism, aren't you. Sure. All right, are you familiar with their doctrines? Somewhat. Okay, you're familiar - Their doctrines are very deep. How do they regard Mary? Why are you asking me that? Because you're a christian you say that I haven't claimed that oh what is this is this christians versus atheists I don't know you don't knows where you are right now don't be a smart ass well either you're christian or you're not if you're smart oh either you are a christians or you are not which one is it I could be either of them but I don' have to tell you you don' t have to tell me I was under the impression I was invited to talk to a christia am I not talking to a christian no you were invited

0:31:07 Thomas: Is the point of this

0:32:22 Clip: To I think everyone should look at the title of the youtube channel you're probably in the wrong youtube video you're really quite something you are aren't I but you're really quite nothing right you're not a christian I'm done with him nice

0:32:31 Lydia: My God. Oh my God, wow.

0:32:35 Thomas: So uh video was called one christian versus 20 atheists until shortly after it was posted and then it was changed to jordan peterson versus 20 atheist yeah after about four hours and I I checked this um

0:32:46 Lydia: Wow, do you think he reached out?

0:32:51 Thomas: Don't know I think maybe they saw the like the comments or or something.

0:32:52 Lydia: Interesting, yeah.

0:32:56 Thomas: It the name of the debate that they were invited to was one Christian versus 28. That's what they were doing. But then the asshole won't even just say he's a Christian. Exactly.

0:33:06 Lydia: Why, what, why?

0:33:09 Thomas: Isn't it a good sign, Jordan Peterson, that you can't, some reason unwilling or unable to just say you're a Christian? Does that that Does reflect well on whatever your belief system is? Can just say what the fuck my belief system is. An atheist. We can talk more about what I believe. I don't have to run around hiding and playing tricks on everyone about what I believe. There's just no honest reason to do that. Rest of this there's there's a lot of stuff. I mean, it's more of the same, but this was fun. I want to go out with my favorite part. It was actually in the claim two that we skipped, but it is truly my favorite thing ever.

0:33:42 Clip: To meet you nice to meet you I guess since you said morality and purpose cannot be found in science um it would just depend on like what you're referencing if you're saying a description of your psychological preferences would be considered within science sure but I don't think that you have to say that that it comes from science in order to be like an atheist. As an agnostic atheist, I don't know if God exists and I don' believe that a God exists. And the only ones that I would really reject would be like the all -knowing, all -powerful, all -good, perfect notion of God that plenty of Christians like prescribe themselves. So I guess - How is that relevant to this claim? You're basing a position of morality and purpose in some like notion of god that isn't the same type of notion of gd that typical Christians would prescribe. Your notion of Gd is - What typical Christians? Yeah, typically when I talk to Christians, They say that they believe in an all -knowing... How about Cardinal Newman, who defined God as conscience? He was a major influence on all of Catholic social theory.

0:34:31 Thomas: Again, do you think that's all he said sad about God?

0:34:33 Clip: How about that Christian? Sure. So do you believe in the all -knowing, all -powerful, all good notion of God? What do you mean by believe? Do you think it to be true? That's the circular definition. What do mean when you say you believe?

0:34:46 Thomas: It's not circular.

0:34:47 Clip: How is that circular? Because you added no content to the answer by substituting the word true.

0:34:52 Thomas: He tried to use a different

0:34:53 Clip: And believe.

0:34:53 Thomas: Word that what?

0:34:55 Clip: I said you think it to be true. All right, so if you believe something you stake your life on it.

0:35:01 Thomas: What?

0:35:01 Clip: What do you mean by that? You live for it and you die for it. That's what I mean by that. It isn't something that you say, it isn't something that's associated with logical consistency, it's not declarative, it's not propositional, it is not a figment of your imagination. It's the presupposition of your your attention and your action. And you're either fragmented, in which case you worship multiple gods, or there's some unity at the bottom of it that makes you an unstoppable force.

0:35:10 Thomas: This is so insane. What?

0:35:34 Clip: Okay, so you're saying that you don't believe something if you wouldn't die for it? Not really, no. Okay. How would you define belief? Something you say? Can I explain? I could believe it is the case that this pen exists, but if someone threatened my life, I would lie in order to be able to save my life. Like, I think you would do that too. You wouldn't lie to save your life? Don't be so sure. You wouldn't lie to your life.

0:35:49 Thomas: Is this so good?

0:35:57 Clip: How much do you know about me? I didn't lie to save my career. I didn' lie to my clinical practice.

0:36:02 Thomas: So fucking dumb.

0:36:04 Clip: Would you lie to like save your children, your mom, your dad? I don't think lying would save them. Can there ever be a circumstance logically that lying could save someone? Yeah and if you're steeped in sin, you're likely to live in circumstances like that. I'll give you an example. If you're like in like Nazi Germany and it is the case that there's like Jewish people in your attic and you're trying to would you lie to like the nazis I would have done everything I bloody well could so I wouldn't be in that situation to begin with it's a hypothetical and it's not answerable no I can't answer a hypothetical like that because it's look don't play games yes you are if you present me with an

0:36:07 Thomas: So good. Can't be a sir. What so good. It gets worse.

0:36:15 Lydia: What why I

0:36:34 Thomas: Why can't you answer? Yeah,

0:36:42 Clip: Intractable moral choice that's stripped of context and you back me into a corner you're playing game I just told you I would do everything that I could to make sure that I'm never in the that situation. By the time you've got there, you've made so many mistakes that there's nothing you can do that isn't a sin.

0:36:42 Thomas: He's the no, it's not. Just say you'd lie.

0:36:55 Lydia: Would have abandoned all

0:36:57 Thomas: Yeah. There's what?

0:37:00 Lydia: Of them way before yeah

0:37:01 Thomas: What?

0:37:00 Clip: Being born in Nazi Germany and trying to protect people that you care about, like there could be a Jewish friend that you have and you want to protect them. I think you should just give up on that line of questioning. Give up on just like trying to clarify your position? Because you don't like, are you like uncomfortable with me asking this question? It's just a basic hypothetical. Like I could ask you. It's a basic. Yeah. Where you're You put Jews' lives at stake in Nazi Germany. That's just a basic hypothetical. Obviously, you would lie in that scenario to save their life. But you're not trying to answer this question for some reason. I just told you why. Are you anti -fascist? Why are you asking that? I'm just asking. I'm clarifying. But again, you're answering this hypothetical because you know it shows that you clearly would lie to save someone's life. I'm answering it in a manner you don't find acceptable. Obviously, because I care about truth. I wouldn't be in that situation. In that scenario. Obviously, right? Logically, because that's already happened. Like that's in the past you don't have a time to travel device we're

0:37:23 Thomas: What everyone

0:37:52 Clip: Bringing this logical hypothetical up to show you that in some circumstances that do happen within the real world you would lie to save people's lives so your definition of truth isn't actually how we're typically using it so what you're trying to do is you're try to muddy the waters when I ask you like do you believe this do you think this to be true so you don t actually have to answer the questions and plenty of christians don't like that because they clearly see that you don' t really like want to be associated with christianity imagine that I was in a situation where the best I could do as a consequence of my previous mistakes, was to tell the least amount of lie I could manage. But

0:37:50 Thomas: Is like, what is happening? Oh,

0:38:18 Lydia: What? Oh

0:38:21 Thomas: Man.

0:38:22 Clip: That would likely indicate that I had made all sorts of catastrophic errors on my way there.

0:38:22 Thomas: So good. What?

0:38:22 Lydia: My God.

0:38:28 Clip: So you would lie to save someone's life. So again, you do believe it to be true, even though you lied in that scenario.

0:38:29 Lydia: Is it not? It's okay to lie. It's okay

0:38:33 Clip: Not without reason.

0:38:33 Lydia: To Lie Jordan.

0:38:30 Thomas: It's so fucking funny that I never thought as funny as he is. I did not anticipate I wouldn't have ever gotten myself into the situation of being born in Germany during the time of the Nazis. Like what are yeah

0:38:46 Lydia: I would have made so many mistakes if I ended up in a situation where Jewish people are hiding in my attic.

0:38:50 Thomas: What what it's also just so it's so so anyone like and it really it's a great one to go out on because it betrays the worldview that like anything bad that happens someone deserves it and any like because that's what you have to believe I think to on some level to believe that there's a just god in the world and in the universe you because like like Like, how? But that so fucking funny. I that that person, that hypothetical who's hiding a Jewish person in their attic. Wow. They made mistakes to get there. I wouldn't have gotten to there. What are you talking about?

0:39:19 Lydia: What of person are you to not just say like yes, I Would Lie to try to save their life like this is a horrible injustice to them

0:39:27 Thomas: Again, he's backed into a logical corner because he defined defined truth belief as something you would die for but then that's not a good definition because like sometimes we know like sometimes you know the truth but you would lie order to not die for it but it doesn't mean that it wasn't the truth

0:39:41 Lydia: Or to prevent somebody else from dying from it

0:39:45 Thomas: That's the point he made which is a good point like like that's a bad definition of truth it's silly um actually kind of hard to define something like truth like when you get that's why this philosophy stuff is so hard and so many people hate it. It is actually kind of hard to just define things like that in a simple way, but he's always trying to do it in some mystical way. That means the truth is God and the blah, blah, so he plays these word games and then he gets back into a corner and he just refuses. Like it'll, he'll play a word game such that if he says his name is Jordan, then he's wrong. So you'll be like, well, what's your name? I'm like, I never said idea. You don't know my name. And then they'll change the YouTube video to Mr. Peterson versus 20 can What's I love I love being able to search nonsense into chat GPT

0:40:15 Lydia: Irrelevant

0:40:48 Thomas: And have it.

0:40:48 Lydia: It knows exactly what you need Yeah.