SIO482: Jordan Peterson Debated a Bunch of Atheists. So... How Did That Go?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:14 Thomas: And welcome to Serious Inquiries Only. This is episode 482. I'm Thomas Smith, and surprise, surprise, joined by a very special guest, Lydia Smith. How are you doing?

0:00:22 Lydia: Dang. I'm here. I snuck into another one of your podcasts.

0:00:26 Thomas: You're not on this one often, really, right?

0:00:28 Lydia: Not really at all, unless we're talking about our kids' allergies. That's when I sneak in.

0:00:33 Thomas: Happened once. Yeah.

0:00:34 Lydia: Or women problems. When we talked about IUDs.

0:00:38 Thomas: Today it's about women problems. No. we're doing something fun today. I want to do something a little different. Um, this is something I've been wanting to do for a while. It's a little experimental, so we'll see how this goes, but Jordan Peterson, I have long wanted to just examine what the fuck this guy's talking about. Not in any of his, like his books or I don't care. It's all stupid, but like just his way. Designed to fuck with me in particular. Particular the way he quote unquote debates, like the way he just uses language tricks and bullshit to smart. It's always bothered me. I've always wished I had time to do like an annotated Jordan Peterson something, you know, like because it's fascinating to me to actually track the bullshit that he's saying because no one else does really like people just kind of forget what he said five seconds ago or they move on. And, you if you're trying to just get through having to hear him. I get that. Like even people who like, they like him, they don't really track how many ways he's like the plot or done a trick or done a 360 or done, you know, 180 or done or whatever. I the other day that he did one of these Jubilee debate thingies, which I'll

0:01:01 Lydia: Cleaning your room mm -hmm

0:01:46 Thomas: Talk more about on YouTube. And he debated 20 atheists or whatever, I mean, that's what they say, but it ends up being like seven or something. I don't know. But anyway, he had a debate against atheists and it didn't go well. I don't think anyone thinks it went well, but I often worry I'm in a bubble. I don't know, but I've seen a lot of positive comments. I don't know. He's very popular and his followers do like him. And I wanted to look at this and there's some really funny moments. It also is an opportunity for us to talk about some of these old religious arguments that you haven't really been exposed to, which used to live for. I love these arguments. It's going to be fun to kind of walk down that path with you because it's not something you have much experience with and you don't give a shit about God because you weren't raised indoctrinated into it and all that.

0:02:27 Lydia: And I don't really have experience with like philosophy besides what I've picked up on from listening to the work that you've done and watching The Good Place

0:02:40 Thomas: Thought you were going to just say watching The Good Place. Yeah, yeah, no. Watching The Goodplace is about half of an undergraduate degree of philosophy. Be. Yeah, it's good. It's really good. It's a good show.

0:02:41 Lydia: Michael Schur and Thomas Smith dang. Better go back to school and finish it up.

0:02:51 Thomas: Not but yeah. Yeah, a few electives and you're good. Yeah, no, it is going to be a lot of fun. We will see how this goes, but I am going to try to actually like, as long as we can, which may not be very long, actually put Jordan Peterson's words to scrutiny and see, let's see how much sense he makes. Let's see how he does. So, why don't we take our usual break, which you can avoid at patreon.com/seriouspod and can get episodes early um uh you can get that warm fuzzy feeling in your heart that's so important mm

0:03:19 Lydia: A good feeling, guys. I get the warm, fuzzy feeling in my heart because I am a patron to this show.

0:03:25 Thomas: I sometimes pledge myself just for that feeling I usually don't talk about it but

0:03:28 Lydia: It feels nice. It feel nice. I recommend it. So give it a try, everybody.

0:03:34 Thomas: All right sounds like I've got an excuse all right uh take our break and then we're gonna be on with jordan peterson we're Gonna check out this debate and Okay. So let's get into this video. I am. I'm so excited. You have not heard or know anything about this, right? Okay. This is Jordan Peterson versus 20 atheists. Now this is called surround. It's probably like Jubilee is the YouTube channel.

0:04:01 Lydia: No oh

0:04:08 Thomas: Yeah, and I did watch. It was great. I watched. I've watched a couple of these I watched The Pete Buttigieg one which was fantastic like been liking Pete Buttigege more and more you that video was a very solid part of I was like man I he could be he could be a great candidate uh just so good at explaining stuff it's so I watched that one it was the and format is essentially like one person in middle. And I guess they get to kind of set the three claims, I think. Then there's 20 people sitting around them. I kind of there's parts of the format that I don't like, but it is pretty cool. Claim has 20 minutes, I Think. Then there's an extra at the end. It seems like I don't know if they do this every time, but it seems like based on this one, then the person in middle can pick someone to have more extended debate on I think after so

0:04:08 Lydia: Yeah yeah mm -hmm Ben -hm mm -hum I okay yeah

0:04:50 Thomas: That was interesting um do this kind of annoying I thing where they all run to get to the chair first like that's how they do I think that's just an annoying bullshit thing whatever um don't think the truth should be determined by who can run to a chair faster like that'S not how I'm trying to get like at the truth and that'S why I want to talk about this is I think a lot about getting at the truth you know, this day and age, I know I talk about it a lot when it just more and more, I think it's so easy for people to be misled. And I think fundamentally, I actually don't think it is that much harder to know the truth. Is just easier to not, if that makes sense.

0:05:22 Thomas: Like, I think if you have the skeptical tools and the time, and it does take time. And so that is another part of it where it is like not everyone has the privilege of time. If you you have the time and the skeptical tools I actually think it's maybe even easier to get the truth in some ways because there's so much information out there you have access to information everywhere but just nobody knows it just feels like too much of humanity has no idea how to get at the truth and they're so willing to believe things they want to believe like you need to be able to look for things that aren't what you agree with already you know and And everyone has a struggle with that, like everybody.

0:05:56 Lydia: Yeah, yeah, of course. That's human nature. Yeah.

0:05:58 Thomas: But I think what learned about myself is that a lot of the same reasons that I'm miserable is because I have, in my mind, there's always someone arguing with me. There's always somebody who's going prove wrong or they're going to have the reason why I'm wrong. And it can be unhealthy as a person, but as trying to get at the truth, it actually is very healthy because so often when we're doing research, I'm like, well, if we what if this, you know, what if what If someone's going to look this up, and it's actually this, like always looking for how you could be wrong, I think is very important. And always looking For how your information could be wrong. I I think about debate a lot because I do still want to find a way to have, mean, I don't even want to call it debate, but I want to have have conversations with people who disagree because I just feel like we're getting further and further and further away from each other in this country. And I don't think it's good. And I don' t know what to do about it. But it's also interesting because I think debate as a tool for finding truth is terrible. I it could be good if it has very strict rules. So many ways that it's just games. And I think Jordan Peterson is such a good example of that um just playing games there's nothing there's if this is an hour and a half I watched the whole damn thing there's almost nothing in here that resembles getting to the truth like there's just because it's like it almost becomes like he's doing a sport or something where it's like can he keep saying syllables that either confuse you enough or trick you or throw you off the scent enough

0:07:19 Thomas: To like get away from what like it's just such a terrible method of finding the truth it's it's nothing but there's some very interesting stuff in here and I wanted to go through it and always had an interest in doing this I want to actually like keep track of what the fuck he's saying and I that might mean we get through 14 seconds of video I actually don't know

0:07:37 Lydia: I think that happened last time we tried to do a Jordan Peterson thing.

0:07:40 Thomas: Yeah because he it's that's the gish gallop baby that's that it's so much easier to spew nonsense um it's there's a lot of interesting stuff there's something in this this video that is so laugh out loud funny to me that it's so good. I anyway, back to what I was saying, run they to the chair and then they start talking. And then I guess if enough of the people like up their red flag, then that person gets knocked out and another other person goes and tries. And I also find that annoying because like, on that you need some mechanism. Otherwise I'm sure they would just talk forever. Often it's like, oh, this person was actually getting somewhere, but then they got voted off. And it's like, okay, well that sucks. AndI don't know. Don't know how much of these people, these people all seem to be like influenced YouTube or whatever. Like, I think, I think they're mostly, yeah, well, and I think they'd have to be because it's like, it's Jordan Jordan Peterson or possibly one Christian, pin in that for later, versus 20 atheists, how are you going to find 20 atheasts who know how to argue anything? Like I'm sure Jubilee found like 20

0:08:22 Lydia: The 20 people are, like, actually, hmm.

0:08:38 Thomas: Atheist.

0:08:37 Lydia: Yeah. I'd be a terrible person for that. So like

0:08:40 Thomas: You don't find an atheist on the street and have them talk to Jordan Peterson. Although now I kind of wish that would be what they do because having him talk to a normal person. Now, I think people are just so affected by his gobbledygook abilities and his language ability, which his language ability is incredible. Like I've long said that he's very good at language and effective at confusing and intimidating and sounding smart that it's very hard to get through. Even these folks who I think a lot of them there's very good At what they do. These these atheists in this video, I think most of them. Even that, I mean, you just run into this brick wall. So that's the format. There's three claims. We're going to start with the first one. I'm just going to hit play. And I think this one will be funny to play a little bit because one I often forget that is so funny when you're someone like me who was in the atheist community and into and all those arguments and everything. Lydia is just an atheist because the natural way.

0:09:29 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah,

0:09:30 Thomas: She was born into this earth and nobody taught her a religion. And so she's like, yeah, or not.

0:09:35 Lydia: I just explored things myself. And then I just. Yeah or not. Yeah it was both like I did attend some of like my friends, church you services and things like that. But and I have read like some stories from the Bible, I guess, but I never took it as like this actually happened. Any of this is true. I was like, oh, they're trying to teach kids morals through some of these things, I Guess I was like Aesop's fables like that's what it was for me.

0:09:58 Thomas: I bet point is, you weren't taught any of that. So you're in a way you're like the perfect anti -Jordan Peterson and uh rather than me continue talking here I'll just hit play and I think you'll see what I mean

0:10:09 Clip: My first claim, atheists reject God, but they don't understand what they're rejecting.

0:10:17 Thomas: Oh now they're all gonna run to the chair all

0:10:23 Clip: Good afternoon, Dr. Peterson. How are you doing? So this claim here that

0:10:28 Thomas: So uh said good afternoon no I'm just kidding um named Cade has taken the chair. Let's tick through this first attempt a bit.

0:10:36 Clip: Don't know what they're projecting. My background is in studying to become a traditional Catholic priest, daily mass, daily rosary, going on long retreats deep into the magisterium and biblical hermeneutics like I was thoroughly in it. And it seems like I do know what I'm missing. Is there something that I missed over years of study both this issue formally and living out religion so deeply well you obviously feel that you missed something when you were practicing for the priesthood your aim was off then so there's always always

0:11:06 Thomas: So first thing I want to say, and Peterson is, look, I'm not a doctor. I'm not trying to diagnose anyone. He's pretty clearly quite autistic. I don't, has he talked about that? Feel like there's a lot of people in our world who are pretty autistic and don't know it. And so they I Just find it interesting. Like, I wish there was more education about autism in general. And I wish that people were more comfortable with it. Um, I think everyone's better off when you are open and know this about themselves. And when a whole, we know more about each other. And there's just, yeah,

0:11:39 Lydia: Just no way, though, that Jordan Peterson is like even were on the spectrum, I don't think there's any way that his ego would like ever pursue that. Like, I think he thinks he's a genius, right, that he always has the answer to everything. And I don't think that like the only neurodivergence I think that he would be willing to apply to himself is that he's a genius, because not he's not typical in that sense. I don'T think there's any way he would ever pursue any sort of diagnosis to understand his brain better.

0:11:48 Thomas: I think that's right. Yeah. Would love for us all to be open about ourselves and for him to be open with himself and to understand that about himself. And And I could totally be wrong. But like, he can't, I mean, just watch the video. Like he just, it just is, I think he's on the spectrum. But anyway, right away, the I laughed out loud at this one because right away you see him making his big claim that atheists reject God, but they don't understand what they're rejecting. Then right away someone comes on who clearly is a terrible counterexample to that for Jordan Peterson, like, oh, I actually was God. I'm related to God. I went to high school with God, you know, and I, so I think I understand him. And so naturally, is he going to deal with this? He were an honest person and open, he might think, huh, well, yeah, it does seem like you likely knew a lot about God. Know, like if you're literally trying to be a priest, it sounds like you did probably know about God, but also important to look at why he's making this claim. Because clearly, what does that claim? Atheists reject God, But They Don't Understand What They're Rejecting. What does that what does that signal to you? What do you think he's trying to say or anyone who is reading that claim? What Do you think that's the point that's trying to make?

0:13:13 Lydia: This is probably a crass way of putting it, but that like anyone who's an atheist is stupid and just doesn't understand. Stand.

0:13:19 Thomas: I think that's the implication that that to put it less harsh, like, yeah, you're rejecting something that you're ignorant of. And that a way of trying to argue.

0:13:27 Lydia: The problem, not God.

0:13:29 Thomas: It's like, people who believe in God would need an explanation for why other people reject something that is so so fundamental to them. And, with a lot of the God mythology, you know, especiallywith all the like, in well, some religions, if you don't believe in God, you're going to go to hell, you get punished or get like, there's all these reasons that like, it seems kind of fucked up that God would make people that don'tbelieve in him, right?

0:13:48 Lydia: Hmm.

0:13:48 Thomas: I mean, that seems good. So like, there's a lot there's There's a lot undergirding this, like there's so much implication in this very claim. And I know for fact that Jordan Peterson is not just making this claim for no reason. If I made the claim, you know, hon, you reject Warhammer 40k. I Percy. Exactly. Exactly. Reject Warhammer 40K, but you don't understand it. You'd be like, OK, yeah. And everyone listening would be like it sounds. Yeah, she just isn't into Warhammer40K. You know, like it's a nerd thing that I don't I also don't know much about, but it involves all the figurines and the whatever.

0:14:14 Lydia: Is that? Yep. Sure.

0:14:25 Thomas: It seems it seems cool. Arlo will someday be into it. But he probably wouldn't be really into that, actually. But if made that claim, it'd be like, yeah, OK, which just you're not into it. It's fine. You reject it. You're not in it. But like very clearly, that's that's reject God, but they don't understand what they're rejecting is very loaded claim in a way that that one isn't. Like you're trying to say you're just making a casual observation that people who don't know about a thing rejected. That's not the observation you're making. You you're implying that there's a causal relationship, Like, the only way an idiot could reject God is by not understanding God, is kind of what you're saying. And so along comes this, like, former Catholic priest, you know, or whatever, like someone who clearly, clearly God to the degree that most people do, or probably a lot more, actually. And Cade is asking is, I all actually think Cade could have been more direct. And don't get me wrong, I am do horribly in this situation. I want to make clear that any that critique I have is from a position of I would do much worse.

0:14:25 Lydia: Oh, oh, yeah I would have just sat in my chair the whole time. I wouldn't have run up to the chair.

0:15:23 Thomas: Like hindsight perspective, I do think that there are places where, and it's only because Jordan Peterson is going to take advantage of word games so much that sometimes people try to be polite or a little indirect. And then that launches Jordan Peterson off on a like, he fixates on their wording and blah, blah, bla. So it's like, think what Cade is saying and should have maybe said more directly is, how could you say, I don't understand God? I very clearly understand God. Claim is wrong.

0:15:46 Thomas: But he kind of asked a softer question.

0:15:49 Clip: There something that I missed over years of study, both this issue formally and living out religion so deeply?

0:15:50 Thomas: There something I missed? I mean, that's fairly direct, I guess. But when he said, when he phrased it that way, is there something I missed?

0:16:00 Lydia: Do you think that's like more of a strategy for dealing with someone like Jordan Peterson?

0:16:04 Thomas: I think, I know, I'm not sure if that's the right word, but I think now Jordan Peterson is going to turn this around, though, and change kind of the meaning of what's going on. So, I think, and this is all my interpretation. Please feel free to disagree if you think I get anything wrong. I think what Cade is trying to say is, hey, man, what the fuck? How could you say I'm missing something? I clearly study God more than any average person. Maybe not more than Jordan Peterson.

0:16:26 Lydia: Name the thing I missed then.

0:16:29 Thomas: Yeah, like, what am I missing? But, like I think he's trying to solve it. I think it's trying be polite and less confrontational. So, he asked it like, did I miss something? Thing. And then listen to what Jordan Peterson does with this.

0:16:39 Clip: You obviously feel that you missed something when you were practicing for the priesthood, your aim was off then. So there's always the possibility that it's still off now. What was off about my aim

0:16:50 Thomas: So what is that answer? Do you understand any of what? So what I, and I, it actually has taken me a second to try to think of where he went here, but now he's, he's played a game where he's switched the meanings here. So now he saying, well, you miss something when you were studying for the blah, blah, blah. And what I think he's saying is because you didn't end up being a priest, that meant you were mistaken in your choice to study, to become a priest. And so he changes, he changes miss something. What I think is happening is Jordan Peterson is changing, missing something as in the politely like, Hey, what did I miss about God? Like, I think I know about God. He's changing that to like, what way was my view incorrect? Kind of like, in what way were my perceptions incorrect? And now Jordan Peterson's flipping that around and saying, saying, well, the fact that you didn't end up being a priest means your aim was wrong when you went to study to be a priest. Therefore, that means since you were wrong about that, maybe that means you're wrong about how you perceive a lot of stuff. It's just a completely invalid argument. That's the best I can come

0:17:50 Thomas: Up with. My interpretation is wrong, but I don't think there's any obvious good interpretation. This is me trying really hard to decide what Jordan Peterson means. I think he's realizing in this moment, oh, I've accidentally made stupid claim that atheists reject God and then I get God's brother -in -law who's like, I know everything about God. So now my claim doesn't work. So what I have to do is fixate on language and say, well, your aim was off when you studied to become a priest because you didn't become a priester. That means you were wrong about how you were conducting your life. You're wrong about yourself in what you wanted kind of thing. But no other way that I can parse that that makes any sense. So let's see.

0:18:24 Clip: In the first place? I don't know, it might take a long time to figure out. It seems kind of like this no true Scotsman type of fallacy in which you're the arbiter of people's aims and how they understand those aims to be. How is it that you can claim that people don't know something that you know about their life despite not having met them well it's obviously a generic claim just like the atheist claim that there's no god as a generic claim in

0:18:49 Thomas: No. Incorrect. So I think that ultimately that little word trick didn't matter much because they they went off that stupid And I sort of just steered back to something else. But Cade takes it in general and says, how can you tell people that they don't know what what they're missing their life? That seems like a very presumptuous thing, essentially, which is a great argument. Like, how can you tell me I'm missing something? So he says, oh, no, it's a generic claim, just like atheists claiming there's no God. I think it's very different to say, generic claim one. No god. Generic claim two, all religious people are idiots who are drug addicts. It's like that's not a generic claims. You're claiming that we're missing. You're blaming that atheists don't understand what they're rejecting. That's not a claim that there is a God. Like the of atheists claiming there isn't a God would be, well, I claim there is a God that wouldn't be this personal observation like you're yeah, you're you're making a personal claim about us. You're saying atheists. That's the subject of your sentence. Atheists reject God, but they don't know what they want. They don't want to understand what their rejecting. So this is just wrong. Wrong.

0:19:38 Lydia: You're an idiot. Yeah, my

0:19:49 Clip: Your case it would have to be specified more and I'm not claiming to understand what was going on in your mind but yeah my experience with atheists is twofold is that they have a very reductive notion of what constitutes god let's say in the judeo -christian tradition tradition and they've often been hurt by someone who was religious or by the religious enterprise or perhaps by God himself, so to speak, and that's left them with an animus. But I think that you have a

0:20:12 Lydia: It's like a Sigmund Freud. Like, like,

0:20:14 Thomas: That's why I wanted to have you on for this. So, hun, is that where you came from? So, who hurt you?

0:20:19 Lydia: Yeah who hurt me? I wouldn't even know how to answer that. Honestly, it Yeah, there was Yeah, it was not part of my life at all to have hurt me.

0:20:23 Thomas: It's unanswerable because, yeah, it is very silly. It is incredibly silly. It is condescending. The narcissism of Jordan Peterson is just immeasurable. It's off the charts. He thinks so highly of himself and his own genius. Honestly, when it comes to religious debate, a lot of Christians are this way. Maybe they are not that way in all aspects of life, But a lot of Christians are like, well, they must have been hurt. The only way someone could be dumb enough to reject God is if they were hurt by who hurt you.

0:20:34 Lydia: It is. It's, yeah. I, yeah, and I, but I think some of that is like protective over their belief system, right? Like, like most likely that they have to, they turn it around in that way because otherwise now it leads to questions for themselves and their belief system. Yeah yeah, it's interesting.

0:21:13 Thomas: Claiming that, the like, only way people could not believe in God is not through any sort of reasoning. It's only through an irrational reaction to something that happened to them, I guess in fairness, do think that the only Way you can believe in Christianity is by being indoctrinated to it. It. I wouldn't say that that's irrational though, because I actually don't think it's irrational individually to believe in what you've been indoctrinated to. Yeah.

0:21:23 Lydia: Taught.

0:21:38 Thomas: It's like a very rash. It was I also do think that there are people who come to believe God later in life. There definitely are. And I think what they're They're doing is they're something that I think almost everyone experiences, you everyone, but have it different vocabulary for it, which is an experience of, you deeper meaning, something feeling like there's something missing.

0:21:37 Lydia: Mm -hmm. Yeah Yeah.

0:21:55 Thomas: There's some deeper thing and people will assign things to it that make sense to them.

0:21:55 Lydia: Yeah. Feeling listless. Yeah, mm -hmm.

0:22:01 Thomas: Maybe I'm wrong about that. Maybe there's some people who saw a William Lane Craig debate and were like, boy, that guy makes great arguments. I doubt it. So I guess I will say that you is fair when it comes to that. Like, I guess if I'm claiming that people are all mistaken in their belief in Christianity, I feel like the way I would claim it is not quite as condescending as I don't say like, well, an atheist molested you and that's why you're a Christian, you know, like that's kind of silly. So, I think it's a little bit more reasonable to say you you kind of have to be indoctrinated into this very, very hyper -specific set of supernatural beliefs. You know, I feel like that's not like that controversial. You know, I could an extent to which, like, Like, I guess I'm also saying that I think Christians are pretty much indoctrinated into it for the most part. How does that come across to you? This is just occurring to me. I doesn't even think that's necessarily part of the debate going on here.

0:22:46 Lydia: I I know that I would have necessarily phrased like statement as condescending but I think you're right. Is a little offensive like that the only way I could come to this is because hurt me like religion specifically hurt me or God specifically hurt me so

0:23:02 Thomas: I'm so branching off a bit, but but But when you say something like that, and this is how my dad would argue too, there's nothing anyone can say in response to that. You can't be like, well, I think if you don't believe in God, you're either an idiot, you don't understand God, or you're molested by a priest. Like, already decided that I don't have rational responses to things. You've decided that the only reason I could disbelieve in God is because I'd be so mad at somebody. But actually, for my beliefs are not based on how mad I am. Like, actually, it's not how I work. And it's condescending to think that's how everybody works all the time. So it there's nothing anyone could say. Whereas I think if I were in an actual conversation with a Christian, I don'T think I just say, well, you're an idiot. You just believe because you're indoctrinated. I think but I think I would say I would invite them to ponder why they are a Christian and not a Muslim, they Are Christian and Not, I don't know, Hindu or any other any other religion. And

0:23:16 Lydia: It is like the I am rubber you are glue whatever you say yeah right yeah yeah yeah where

0:23:56 Thomas: Isn't it interesting that it just is pretty much 100 % where you're born determines what your religion you are.

0:24:01 Lydia: Your parents took you yeah

0:24:03 Thomas: And I would Invite them to think about like, that is seems like a hell of a coincidence. You if Christianity is the right one, isn't it lucky that you you were born at the geographical location or one of them where that's what you were taught?

0:24:03 Lydia: That Yeah.

0:24:15 Thomas: You know? And it seems like unlucky for these other folks who, by the way, coincidentally seem to be, you and brown more often than white. Like it's just it just feels very convenient. Like, it feels like less like an organic belief that arose from, you logic and first principles and more like, well, you were born in a place and you believe what all the people tend to believe there. Think that would also maybe be hard for someone to like want to respond to. I don't know if that would make them feel condescended toward. But I do think it's a little bit better than, well I guess a priest hurt you. You know, like this, like I don' t know. Know. But anyway, all right, let's continue on.

0:24:47 Lydia: Who's

0:24:48 Clip: Reductive view of what atheism is. You've defined religion so broadly to include any sort of having aim in life, any sort of cultural archetypes or having a metaphorical substrate. And atheism to you is a very specific type of like three people in the world that are these Raskolnikov type of, they want to get away with a perfect murder. It seems like you have the reductive view of what an atheist is. Well, let's start with your claim. How do you define the God that you're rejecting? Like what is God to you? You studied in the church, you found that unsatisfactory. How would you characterize what you rejected? I think the average Christian believer, when they say that they're Christian and they believe, they mean some sort of God that is all powerful, all perfect, is somehow involved in the matters of this world and that we look to them through wisdom and with the logos incarnate in Christ. And it also seems like you don't believe in religion in the way that the average Christian says that they believe in a religion. And there are as many gods out there as there are believers, because everybody has mutually exclusive and different views of what God is. So it seems like... Well, if everybody had mutually exclusive...

0:25:53 Thomas: Pause that before you get to his answer. Everything Cade said right there is 100 % true.

0:25:57 Lydia: It was really interesting.

0:25:58 Thomas: Like why this is language games. If I say do you believe in God? And matters what context I mean. I ask do you believe in God in fucking Egypt in I ,000 BC, That's going to mean a very different thing or be incomprehensible, because I think a lot of them were were in lots of gods. So it'd be weird to say God, probably. But like point is, it's very contextual. If I were in Iran and I asked, do you believe in God or do you Believe in Allah or whatever? Like the implications are very different. And that's just how language works and how people work. And so Jordan Peterson doesn't want to be pinned down by the conventions of anything so that he can wiggle out of any argument ever. So what I think Cade is doing is a very valid thing, which is to say, OK, what's the context here? When you say we reject God, do most people mean by that? And Cade nails it. Like I looked up like Pew a research study just to see like, yeah, what do people mean? The U .S. We'll talk to you. US. I know Jordan Peterson's Canadian, but I think this is pretty much an American group, I think. That's what I'll talk about. 80 % of Americans believe in God. % don't believe in God, but do believe in like some spiritual higher power -y

0:27:03 Thomas: Nonsense. So only 10 % of people are you and I who don't belief in higher power spiritual force.

0:27:08 Lydia: That's so crazy.

0:27:09 Thomas: Yeah. I honestly, I'm surprised is not lower.

0:27:12 Lydia: Yeah, I just have, like, a completely different like like of the world uh

0:27:16 Thomas: Of that 80%, 56 % believe in God as described in the Bible. If you do, some you math, it's not quite half of all Americans, but like that's almost half of all Americans saying they believe in god as described by the, in the bible, which is incomprehensible because god described in bible if you actually read it is just million different things. It's not, there's no one thing, you know it's impossible. It is stupid that nobody reads reads it.

0:27:37 Lydia: Yeah it's described by different people throughout the whole book and

0:27:41 Thomas: What they mean is as my priest suggested the Bible might say about it. You know, like that's kind of what they believe. So if you ask these other questions like, okay, how many adults in the U .S. believe that God determines what happens to you most or all the time? 27 % believe God determineswhat happens to you all the time. And that's of all Americans, not that 80%. % believe most of the time. So that's adds up right there to 48%. That's pretty much half of people think that God, and that's, and again, that's the base number. So that's not just of the 80 % because the 10 % of atheists are in this question. So basically half of all Americans believe God determines what happens to you all the time or most of the time.

0:28:21 Thomas: And then you add 18 % believe some of the Time, which I love that where he's, well, you know, he's busy a lot, but like sometimes, but pretty important. If you do the math, and then from there we get 9 % hardly ever, never is 13%, and then 10 % don't believe in God.

0:28:14 Lydia: He's personally responsible for the things that happen to you when he has the time he checks in yeah that's so interesting so wait so 13 believe that god is not in charge of anything that happens to you in your life what happens been doing your life.

0:28:44 Thomas: Does not determine what happens to you, yeah, but

0:28:47 Lydia: Okay. Okay, but they still believe in God.

0:28:48 Thomas: Still believe in God, which I think

0:28:50 Lydia: So what's he up to?

0:28:50 Thomas: That's the most rational position. Yeah,

0:28:52 Lydia: Yeah, what's he doing?

0:28:53 Thomas: Because I know, but I honestly, if and when I ever believed in God, if I did, I don't think I did.

0:28:58 Lydia: Was that version.

0:28:59 Thomas: But it would have been that, I don't think I ever believed it, but it would have to be because you can just look at the Holocaust and be like, well, if God did that, then fuck God, that would be terrible. And every day, you know, we got a genocide going on today.

0:29:10 Lydia: Exactly. Gaza.

0:29:11 Thomas: If God were determining that, then he would either be horrible or I just think it's more likely that there is no God. I think there are a lot of people who are like, well, for whatever reason, God made us and set things in motion. But a lot people are like well, because of free will, will, he doesn't want to intervene or something. So a lot of people have that view, like, he can't intervene because that would violate our free will. So he has no choice but to just kind of watch us just fuck it up all the time.

0:29:34 Thomas: So that's what that percentage is. But if you put in those some of the time people, we're talking 66 % of all American adults believe God is of the Time, most of the Timer, some of The Time, you know, so that's a lot of people. Has protected them in their lives, or 67 % believe God has rewarded them. 61 % believe God will judge people on what they've done. 28 % of U adults, adults, and this is from 2018 or 19, but I think it's pretty, 28 of U .S. adults believe they talk to God and God talks to them. 28%. % say they talk to God, but God doesn't respond.

0:30:15 Thomas: So 1 % believe they don't talk to God, but God talks to them. Like, yeah, I don't, he just fucking, I don'T say anything, and now all he is is talking to me all the time. So I think that's funny. And then % 15 are like, we don't - we don'T talk, we're not speaking to each other right now, we're NOT speaking to him.

0:30:30 Lydia: We're not on speaking terms. Yeah,

0:30:31 Thomas: They might still believe, you know, and then the 10 - because it still has the 10 % don't believe in God. So still believers who are like yeah, I don' t talk to him,

0:30:38 Lydia: Notably, all of these people have a different conception of God in their lives and their relationship to God, even though they all believe in God.

0:30:49 Thomas: But also importantly are places where the majority of people do kind of agree in these generalities and that's the problem with a concept like god is it's so insanely impossible to pin down by design that like is going to have the same exact conception of god but there are some key points um So this is interesting. Of the people who say God is like he is in the Bible, enough, 97 % of those people, and this is just a set of questions they asked, believe that God loves all people regardless of their faults, which I almost would have thought the opposite. Because like, honestly, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense Because in the Bible, God does not do that. It you ask the people who believe in a higher power or a spiritual force and don't believe like that it's the God of the Bible.

0:31:36 Thomas: 69 % of them say God loves everybody regardless of their fault. So I would have associated that loosey-goosey belief with more of a like loving whatever thing. But the way this breaks down, it's kind of interesting. But that's important because 97 % of those people who believe in the God of the Bible say he protects them. 94 % say he knows everything. 87 % say he's rewarded them. 86 % say he is the power to direct and change everything. Are percentages of the 56 % of the 80 % who believe in God as described in the Bible. So again, if you It works out to not, not you half of the country, but close. So of those people, like that's a significant chunk of the country though.

0:32:13 Thomas: And so if you're trying to evaluate, what does anyone mean? What is a person on the street? What is anyone watching this video? What are they thinking? When you say God, they are not thinking whatever the fuck Jordan Peterson is talking about. They're just not. So like you can't ignore that context. You know, it might be one thing if Jordan Peterson wanted to say, say, atheists, you've rejected God, but I've got my cool rebranded weird God that you should check out.

0:32:38 Lydia: My Canadian God.

0:32:40 Thomas: Whatever it is, I've Got this weird God where I say a bunch of fancy words that somehow means God. It's fine if he wants to be like, maybe check out that God. But you can't. What he likes to do is he has it all different ways. He has his cake and eats it and then fucking throws it up and and eats it again where he's like yeah not only do I believe in this hyper weird specific but also everywhere god that's art and truth and light and everything so like it's it's so generic that like it's hard not to believe in him but also anyone who's an atheist doesn't understand what god is and you get to use atheist which is a term that really encompasses a bunch of people who reject the christian god probably most of all because that's the one that everyone's thrusting on us most of the time, like you can't say that we are missing something because we don't know what Jordan Peterson's God is, you know, like that's just not, that's not fair. Like inventing a weird thing that isn't what most people mean when they say, do you believe in God? Know, it's a trick.

0:33:45 Thomas: So this person I think makes a great point there. Cade makes a great point here. So let's see how Jordan Peterson responds.

0:33:52 Clip: Cause everybody has mutually exclusive and views of different views on what God. So it seemed like... Well, If everybody had a mutually exclusive view of what god is, no one could speak to each other. The mere fact of communication presumes a commonality of assumption and definition. And it's certainly not the case that I regard any archetypal manifestation whatsoever as equally religious. So that's not a real claim. Let

0:34:19 Thomas: I don't know whether jordan peterson is saying we would have to agree on god in order to communicate about god or if he's saying what his literal words were which was no one would even be able to communicate at all like that's what his words said um applying charity I'm not sure if that's what he means but I'm Not a hundred percent it's not what he Means because he often they make that argument that like if without god there's no he can't no one could even form a thought there's no truth there's No whatever but he the words he said were no one Could communicate he didn't say say communicate about God. He said, just communicate. But think I that's silly. So know, taking trying to be more charitable and taking the idea that people couldn't communicate about a thing unless they agreed on what it was, that doesn't strike me as true. I think there has to be enough agreement to where you're assigning a noun to it.

0:35:02 Thomas: But like, for example, okay, say you and I both know someone named josh and it turns out the joshes we know are different guys but we we don't know that like I know a josh it's a different josh you know another job we can communicate about that all all day I could be like yeah josh he's yeah he's super into baseball and he'd be like I josh is into basketball but yeah okay maybe you know like

0:35:14 Lydia: Maybe he's gotten into it since I last talked to him yeah

0:35:24 Thomas: And and and there would be things where there's commonalities josh's a dude you'd be Probably a white dude, maybe just odds are maybe around our age. Yeah. And there'd be things where, yeah, he's got a brown hair, you know, the things where we could likely like communicate and we wouldn't.

0:35:32 Lydia: Around our age yeah just probability wise like

0:35:41 Thomas: Yeah. Like, well, honestly, and, and there's assumptions that are going to make sense. So we could, but even if we didn't like, we could communicate about it, we would just be wrong. Like we would juste be doing nothing, but that's the thing is like, there's when you're talking about God, there's no time where that's ever going to matter. There's no time where we're going to both try to take Josh to the prom and then we took two different Joshes. I don't know how that works. There is no time when that cashes out in reality ever. So, imagine if we both just thought forever that we knew the same Josh. We just thought, yeah, Josh, you believe in Josh. Yeah, I believe in Josh. He's

0:35:41 Lydia: We're gonna land on it yeah yeah Yeah.

0:36:13 Thomas: Cool. He is like 6 feet.

0:36:13 Lydia: And Josh we trust. Yeah. Yeah mm

0:36:15 Thomas: Yeah. I think he is like 5 '8". But yeah, okay. You know, like we could still talk about him. We'd be like, yeah, Josh, great guy. He loves this. And you'd be Like, yeah. You Know, we'd still be able to talk about them. And also, especially in the way that people talk about God, there's not much incentive to correct each other unless it's wildly off, you know? That's what happens when you get wildly different religions. So, if I meet someone from the Middle East who says they know a Josh, but then it's very clear, like their Josh is very different than mine, then like, we'll be like wait a minute. You just know a different guy named Josh, you Know?

0:36:29 Lydia: -hmm

0:36:42 Thomas: But like, it is absolutely not true that that you can't even communicate about something if you don't agree about what it is. Like we just, that's sort of the trick of God. You know, this whole concept, it's just a noun and you assign a bunch of stuff to it and people assign different things to it and we can very much talk about it. I could talk about Star Trek and you could talk About Star Trek, but you could be talking about the originals. I could be telling you about the next generation.

0:36:41 Lydia: Yeah yeah mm

0:37:04 Thomas: Can still communicate about it with maybe without even knowing we're doing it because we're, yeah, the spaceship and there's, you know, the captain, it'S cool. Get it flies around the different adventures you know like there's maybe it'll matter maybe it won't there's never gonna be a time where we both take Star Trek to the prom because no one ever gets to die and see what's true you know? Like it just doesn't ever matter so like that's the part he's missing we is very very loose term saying like we couldn't even communicate like I could quote -unquote communicate with someone who doesn't even speak English we wouldn't know if each other was saying the right thing but like there's no place where the consequences ever happen so that's a silly claim it's um not proof that we have some common understanding of god we broadly agree on enough things to be able to use the word josh like if your josh was a girl we'd quickly be like oh wait I don't think

0:37:04 Lydia: -hm yeah yeah talking

0:37:50 Thomas: Yeah yeah you know let's So then after that, that. This one goes out the rails and it kind of gets onto stuff that's not as interesting. So I'm going to skip to the next person and

0:37:50 Lydia: About different people. Yeah yeah yeah interesting.

0:37:59 Clip: Out by the majority hey how's it going nice to meet you nice to meet you david david good to see you tell me everything that you know about the Polynesian deity Lono L-O-N-O I don't know anything about the polynesia deity lona so you're rejecting something without knowledge of what you're projecting I'm not rejecting it no more than I'm rejecting do you believe in lona I don t know anything do you believe in Lono? Do you believe that he is a deity that exists in the world exists in the universe that exists in the existence of everything? Do you believe that Lono is a V? I'll answer that question once you answer my question, which is, do I reject everything that I'm ignorant of? Because that's your presupposition that undergirds your argument. And unless you can prove that that's valid, then there's no point in - My question is quite simple. Yeah, but that doesn't mean it's formulated accurately.

0:38:57 Clip: Do you do you believe that Lano exists, yes or no? I'm not going to answer that questions. What

0:39:04 Thomas: Right what do you think about this yeah

0:39:06 Lydia: It's it because it does feel like like Jordan Peterson is like defensive in this moment. Yeah. I don't know why he wouldn't just answer it truthfully, because then it also like, doesn't that help his position that, like, okay.

0:39:13 Thomas: This is all games no that would just contradict him that's the point of it so if his claim is atheists reject God but they don't understand what they're rejecting that's already talked about the implications of that and then this guy says hey I've got a God you've never heard of and then clearly you reject this God. So couldn't someone in whatever Polynesian country he's talking about, they say, well, Jordan Peterson just rejects or whatever because he doesn't understand it. That's designed to illustrate, yeah, that's not really a good counter argument. You know, like it reject things that we don't know about or understand all the time. And it doesn't matter. He were to say, yeah, I reject that then this person could be like, well, then you're rejecting something you don't understand. Isn't that the same? And why don't you care about that?

0:39:47 Lydia: Yeah, but why does it have to be reject? Like, why couldn't he be like, I don't know anything about it, so I can neither reject nor accept.

0:40:09 Thomas: Know if you know this about the whole God thing, but they're pretty persnickety. Have to accept the Lord Lord and savior, Jesus Christ. And you have to accept no other gods. Otherwise you've broken their rules. Like that's, that's the whole, that'S the whole deal. But Jordan Peterson wants to be able to include whatever he wants in his definition of God. Cause that helps him. Cause if he can be like, I don't believe in God, then he can Be like, well, do you believe in rainbows? Because the majesty of a rainbow is God. And You're like, okay, but that's stupid. That's nothing like that. Isn't, you know, I do believe in rainbows, so that doesn't... He does a lot of that. Well, do you believe in metaphor and whatever? He tries to make everything be God in a lot of ways.

0:40:45 Thomas: But you're a Christian yes, you have to reject the Polynesian god Lono. It just is that. You

0:40:50 Clip: Don't know anything about Polynesians. So you are rejecting something without knowledge of what you're rejected.

0:40:57 Thomas: So there he has a choice he could say oh yeah you're right okay never mind I guess my point was stupid you can reject something without knowing anything about it because I can reject any of the vampires from the twilight novels I don't know anything about them anything I know is against my will that's not even a good reference anymore it's been too long but like I don' t uh the kardashians of any reality show I don't care about whatever that is. I don' t need to know about it.

0:41:20 Lydia: I can attest to that because when I try and tell him things he like wants he just leaves the room he's like Like, la, la. La, la., la. La, ha, ha.

0:41:28 Thomas: Lydia, are you still there? I just hear a tone. I don't even... Hold on. There's a problem with your mic. Like... might be wrong about rejecting certain things, especially if we're talking about... I don't know. It'' There s possible that when I'm rejecting some mythological deity from some place I've never heard of, it's impossible I''m wrong. But not really, because it's also like if if I don't believe there's any reason that ghosts exist and don's think ghosts exist, and I'm pretty certain about in fact, I'm very certain about that. There's no such thing as ghost doesn't make any sense. Doesn't really matter to be like, well, what about this ghost? It's like now the concept of ghosts is kind of just no, it's not like, Well, OK, hold on that one guy. Guy.

0:42:06 Lydia: What about Casper.

0:42:09 Thomas: Okay. Okay. You're right, Casper. You got me. No. And so like, that's kind of what the function of this is. It's like, well, you don't really need to know about a deity to reject it because you could just reject that whole concept. And that's the point I think this guy's trying to make. But Jordan Peterson, rather than grapple with that argument in any serious way, now is going to play a game where he pretends he doesn't reject the deity Lono. He's just gonna pretend it's like we're just gonna sit here as adults and watch a guy claim that he doesn't reject this Polynesian deity that's what we're gonna do everybody so

0:42:41 Clip: You're rejecting something without knowledge of what you're rejecting I'm not rejecting it no more than I'm rejecting do you believe in Lono? I don't know anything do you believe in lono do you believe that he is a deity that exists in the world exists in the

0:42:54 Thomas: Now he's trying to get him to say yes you do reject it this is what we commonly mean by reject

0:42:59 Lydia: I fail to see the relevance of that is so ridiculous. It's like it's your exact claim just replacing God with Lono. Your claim.

0:43:09 Thomas: Tried to get out of rejecting something and so now David is trying to say, okay, asshole, what do we think reject means? Do you believe in Lono? Do you incorporate him into your life? Do whatever. And then now we're just playing fucking word games. We're just doing nothing.

0:43:25 Clip: That exists in the existence of everything do you do you believe that lowland I'll answer that question once you answer my question which

0:43:33 Thomas: He didn't have a question. Why do you get, I'll answer that. You answer a question I haven't yet asked is kind of weird. Like what, what? Okay. Where are we going?

0:43:39 Clip: Is do I reject everything that I'm ignorant of

0:43:43 Thomas: I reject everything that I'm ignorant of? Where are we any idea do reject everything that I'm ignorant of well I'll let it play a little bit but this now we've that we've we're not in the same argument

0:43:57 Lydia: It's like, calculus. Like I'm ignorant of calculus. Do I reject calculus?

0:44:02 Thomas: Might be correct that we don't reject everything we're ignorant of I think that is correct like your point you just made like I don't really well

0:44:09 Lydia: But that has nothing to do with with

0:44:11 Thomas: Yeah let's see how we got there So here we go.

0:44:13 Clip: Because that's your presupposition that undergirds your argument unless you can prove that that's valid then there's no point in my question is quite simple

0:44:20 Thomas: So Jordan Peterson has either intentionally or unintentionally forgotten what the argument was, because now that only makes sense if David's argument was you reject Lono. No but that wasn't really his argument that was the secondary argument you got on because he was being an asshole and claiming he doesn't reject lono but that also wasn't how he made that argument he made the argument by saying well well do you incorporate loan into your life like I'm he so okay we have gone a four sentences and he's that twisted we've gotten away from anything. It's just, games. It's This isn't anything fucking real.

0:44:54 Lydia: It's monkey in the middle. Jordan Peterson's on both sides, though.

0:44:59 Thomas: The monkey.

0:44:59 Lydia: Yeah. No, no. David's the monkey right now.

0:45:00 Thomas: He is not. We started off with, here's this deity that you fucking obviously reject and you don't know anything about it. That's what we're, we're all the adults in the room know that's what happened. And then Jordan and pearson says may I don't reject how do you know that I reject lono and david an adult says well okay do you are do you worship lono are you is lono in the room with you right now do you do you actually believe in lono? Then he's like I don' t know why don't you answer this do I reject everything I don''t know about? It's like that's not even his argument was assuming that you reject Lono because you obviously fucking do. Then he gave you, then when you challenged that obvious assumption that you shouldn't have challenged because yes, you reject Lorna, we all know that. Once he chose that assumption, then he said, oh, okay, let's actually go into that assumption and attempted to get Jordan Peterson to go into it, which is the charitable thing to do. Oh, okay. You don't reject Lona? Let's explore what that means. Believe in him? Do you worship him? Do you incorporate him into your universe of things you believe In? Those are all questions in good faith of like, that yeah, premise, let's actually answer that. But then Jordan Peterson says, no, your argument doesn't work unless I reject everything I don't believe. That's just not true. His argument works because you do reject loan. He very much didn't bring up calculus or something else

0:46:18 Thomas: That Jordan Peterson doesn't understand but doesn't reject. He didn't say, you do reject quantum physics or something? Thing because is not making the claim that you reject everything you don't understand. Not at all the claim he's making. Can we possibly get anything out of this? Let's see where this goes. Can we get anywhere now? Or has he so successfully played a word game that we're not doing anything anymore? Let'S see.

0:46:41 Clip: Undergeards your argument and unless you can prove it that's valid then my question's quite simple yeah but it's formulated accurately do you believe that Lono exists yes or no No. I'm not going to answer that question for the reasons I just described. You already insisted that if I reject something, that if I'm ignorant of something, I reject it. Do

0:47:00 Thomas: That's not. He absolutely did not. He never insisted that if you were ignorant of something, you reject it. He He absolutely never said that.

0:47:11 Clip: Do you think that everyone in the world has to know everything simultaneously for that to be valid and true? I think in order for your argument to be true, in order it to be true that we atheists don't understand what we're rejecting, then you need to also apply that to yourself and to christians and to muslims and to any other person on this earth where if you don't understand what you're rejecting the belief in then you can't reject the belief in it that's the implication of your I didn't say that I rejected the belief in lona I said I don't know who lono who lona no

0:47:17 Thomas: What?

0:47:45 Lydia: I loved

0:47:44 Thomas: That's not. It's low. So look at where we've gone. This guy, this guy did a great job, I think, of trying to stick to it. Like, look at how far off of reality Jordan Pearson went. He has to pretend he believes in a deity he doesn't believe in, in order to like stick to his argument because, and he's just incorrect. I actually think he genuinely might just lost track of the argument. Like it's it's some combination of he does this to get out of things but also I think he might have lost track of it because it is tricky to keep track of all this kind of bullshit when you're making it up he never said we reject everything we don't understand he never said that that wasn't at all what he said what his point was is that sometimes you can reject things that you don't understanding and it's perfectly valid that was what his point was and jordan peterson has now played a little game where he got it to To where, oh, no, but you have to prove that I reject. He literally says, unless you can prove that I reject everything I don't understand, then you have no point. What?

0:47:47 Lydia: That. Yeah Yeah. Think that Jordan Peterson is a very good listener. I mean like Like, he's not engaging and listening in any sort of good faith way, for sure. But then I also just don't think he's very good at it because now, I mentioned, he seemed defensive earlier. He still seems very defensive.

0:48:57 Thomas: You seem defensive. He's literally in he doesn't believe in Lono.

0:49:03 Lydia: It's not even just that. He's devolving to becoming like, like a rhetoric professor where he's like, you haven't formulated your argument correctly. That has nothing to do with the conversation that you're having. And you're, you're Having to, um, having to jump into that because you're not actually listening to what this person is saying.

0:49:20 Thomas: Not for nothing, David did formulate his argument. No, I agree. A hundred percent. I'm agreeing with you.

0:49:22 Lydia: Yeah, but, but I, I, yeah, I just think that like, it's it's, just so clear. Like I can just, I can feel like the hairs on the back of of his neck like you know stiffening and like all that stuff yeah

0:49:29 Thomas: Because what he is doing is not, and this is saying something very obvious, he is not trying to get at the truth or trying to have a conversation. He is trying to win. He is not even win. He's almost here. He's trying to be be not wrong or something. Thing like if he can make this claim that atheists reject god but they don't understand it I think in his mind if he Can make that claim and then do jujitsu so that he never has to answer anyone's questions then somehow that means the claim stands it's almost like yeah like if you can't if you Can't make me say that my claim is wrong then it's not wrong but that's just obviously not true like

0:50:08 Lydia: Well it's just feeding meat to the people that he actually cares about which is the jordan peterson you stands basically um because they're they're gonna walk away from this and be like oh my god genius brilliant you as long as he's kept those people I don't think he actually cares about meaningfully engaging with anybody else on

0:50:22 Thomas: I'll be honest I don't I mean the comments didn't love it, but I don't know.

0:50:27 Lydia: Like a jordan pederson subreddit though

0:50:28 Thomas: Well, no, I don' know. Yeah, obviously. But I'm saying, like, largely speaking, the YouTube audience is not super cool, but this comment section is like, eh, this just sucks. Yeah.

0:50:37 Lydia: Well that's that's heartening that's heartening yeah

0:50:39 Thomas: Yeah. So I don'T know. I'M not totally sure. DON'T know that anyone loves this anymore, but I DON' KNOW. I also think that you'RE right, that there'S going to be Jordan Peterson stans who continue to just like him, but don't ever want to think about how fucking wrong he is.

0:50:55 Clip: Said I don't know who Lono who Lono was I didn't say anything about rejection that's because I've asked you several times you haven't but let me get to my even greater point you're

0:51:03 Thomas: Hold

0:51:04 Lydia: That's so good yeah I

0:51:06 Thomas: So good. The more I watch this one, I love this. This guy did the best.

0:51:09 Lydia: Was snapping over here like like this is beat poetry like it's

0:51:13 Thomas: Perfectly right on. And he's not, what I love about David is he's like, he's just not even, like his question is obviously a bit of a gotcha, but like, fair enough. He's responding to a fucking asshole claim about atheists being, yeah. Yeah. So like

0:51:25 Lydia: A gotcha he's yeah it's a gotcha to a getcha I

0:51:27 Thomas: But like beyond his first statement, which, you know, it's a it's it's a bit of a gotcha. Beyond that, he's being entirely sincere and charitable and like Peterson thinks that David is trying to get him to reject Lono. Then Jordan Peterson things he's been a genius by being like, I never said that. Like this guy's like, well, no, I've just I've just assumed you do because and obviously you do.

0:51:44 Lydia: Want you to answer the question yeah yeah and

0:51:48 Thomas: And then I asked you like a human being like do you? And then you said, I'm not going to, because it would be terrible for his case. Can't, it's so fucking funny and dumb.

0:51:51 Lydia: Whatever reason you can't say yes or no you just say it's irrelevant yeah

0:51:59 Clip: Saying atheists don't understand what religion is or what god is in order to be able to reject it fully or completely we have someone over here who studied it in their own way I've studied religion I have a degree in religious studies specialty in christianity and Mediterranean traditions. And further than that, beyond me, Pew Research studies suggest that atheists and agnostics actually know more about religion and about religious stories, the foundational principles, than believers.

0:52:29 Clip: That's because they're more religious than they think they are.

0:52:29 Thomas: That's a great point.

0:52:30 Lydia: What what what they're more no No.

0:52:38 Thomas: So let me, let me get this straight. Let's just, let's just keep track. No one keeps track with Jordan Peterson. That's, that'S what, thatS what I'm here to do. I don't know if this is good content, but this is what I'M here to DO. Claim is that atheists reject God, but they don't understand what they're rejecting. Your claim. Then this guy who's been fucking phenomenal from all way through, David has done a fantastic job. Been patient. He has been direct. He hasn't played games. He says, well, you know, I fucking went to religion school. So did pretty much everyone here. Also, if you look at Pew Research Studies, atheists know more about God than Christians. He's like, well that's because they're more religious than they think. Wait a minute. Well, then hold on. Didn't you just reject your own claim that atheists reject God, but they don't understand what they're rejecting? Isn't that you admitting you're wrong?

0:53:23 Clip: Well, they're concerned with deep matters and one of the defining characteristics of someone who's...

0:53:26 Lydia: So, yes. So what? So,

0:53:26 Thomas: Hold on now. He's trying to now he's trying To retreat a little bit.

0:53:29 Lydia: Because what he's saying is like atheists aren't actually atheists then. Yeah and

0:53:33 Thomas: Then who are we talking about? Then what are we even talking about Jordan Peterson?

0:53:38 Clip: Cause they're religious. That's cuz they're most religious than you think they're. Okay. Well, they're concerned with deep matters and one of the defining characteristics of someone who's oriented in a religious direction is that they're concern with deep matters. Okay. In fact, it's virtually definitional. Right. But they also have to identify with a religious tradition and accept the foundational stories that go along with that. Well, that would mean more that they are sectarian than that they are religious. And most people, for example, in

0:53:58 Lydia: A belief system but yeah

0:54:02 Thomas: What what that's not what now what it's sorry what? But just filibustering now where are we what where are we buddy you're saying atheists reject god but they don't understand what they're rejecting and now you're almost trying to argue with the guy that that atheists understand more than yes anding but also disagreeing somehow like because then the guy was like well I I don't. So then, David, I think in 50 -50 hindsight, I love to say hindsight. Oh, man, that's such an old reference. But yeah, my brother had a boss who said hindsight's 50 - 50. It's the best thing ever. 50 hindsight, once if again, I want to clarify that I could do none of this in real time. I'd be terrible about this. If I were able to like reset to the safe state just after Jordan Pearson said that, I'd think I'd be like, oh, well, it sounds like then you're saying atheists understand more about God. David, I think, you know, again, it's so confusing arguing with this bewildering old man. Now he's like, well they're not really religious. What do you mean they're religious? Like that doesn't make sense. And then Jordan's, then they've picked up that argument where Jordan's like, wow, okay, well then they're concerned with deep matters.

0:54:31 Lydia: 50 50. yeah

0:55:08 Thomas: Then this guy is like, Well, yeah, but in human speak, when you say someone's religious, usually you mean they subscribe to a religion and they're arguing about that now that's somehow the argument okay

0:55:17 Clip: The United States deny that they are religious but accept that they are spiritual. Spiritual eyes there you've been voted out by the majority hi

0:55:22 Thomas: He did fantastic he did fantastically jordan peterson was full of shit the entire time and never said anything resembling truth at all um we're going to have to leave it there we got roughly I who knows one minute into the video or a year it doesn't it's hard to know um there's a lot more including we're to end with just to tease the funniest thing I've ever heard a person say like I it really is I just can't even and describe you're gonna die when you hear this it's so fucking

0:55:47 Lydia: Yeah wait

0:56:02 Thomas: Funny um and that'll be in in the next part uh but there's plenty more jordan peters than to get to so we're gonna do another part of this hope you enjoyed this little experiment I hope you had fun and let me know you know give me feedback and uh it's something we can either do more of or I could just forget it ever happened you know whatever whatever people think so I'll see you next episode everyone uh won't there's never gonna be a time where we both take Star Trek to the prom because I can reject any of the vampires from the twilight novels I argument was assuming that you reject Lono because you obviously fucking do.

0:56:51 Lydia: Think that Jordan Peterson is a very good listener. I

0:56:56 Thomas: Didn't you just reject your own claim that atheists reject God, but they don't understand what they're rejecting?