DOD202: Does Society Tell Boys They're Bad?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad. That's my thing. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can. Complete and honor dependent. I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired.

0:00:22 Clip: Telling is the only part of being a father that I enjoy.

0:00:28 Tom: To dear old dads the podcast that feels good right now I'm Tom Curry I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick hello gentlemen how's

0:00:33 Eli: Sorry tom I was just doing these sweet neck rolls it was just the feeling of it's so good it's nice to just get a gentle every

0:00:42 Tom: That is that good you enjoying those fucking

0:00:44 Thomas: Thought we were doing our erotic asphyxiation one today, and that's why Tom did that.

0:00:48 Tom: What it sounds like I know it's so bad

0:00:49 Eli: Episode is an esoterotic asphyxiation episode here at dear old dads just

0:00:54 Tom: Hey how's your week been guys good

0:00:58 Eli: Glad you asked I woke up yesterday and my arm hurt a little I took some Aleve fine now

0:00:58 Thomas: Go ahead, Tom. Just go ahead. Yeah. A little sore. Tom.

0:01:04 Tom: I christ I this is like a fucking story I was telling this to cecil and he was laughing he's like dude it's only fucking you that could possibly have this happen so like two weeks ago I woke up you know like you sometimes do with like a neck ache like you know slept on my neck funny had like a stiff neck yeah right like yeah

0:01:21 Thomas: Every single day for me. Yeah. But not bad. Not as bad. I'm not trying to one -up you. Not as badass. Not as good as this.

0:01:25 Tom: No no I get it but like here's the thing is like I didn't think too much of it except for that it It was like I had these like intense muscle cramps all through like my traps, my lats, my shoulder. It was just like my whole right side was just cramped like it's never been cramped before. So I was like, oh, this sucks. I did all the things you usually do. You know, like I got out like the fucking massage thing. I scheduled a professional massage. I sat in my sauna to like let some heat kind of warm it out, you know, all that stuff. Over the course of like a week and a half, the started to relax. But this like fucking nerve pain started to settle in. So what I think has happened, I just got back from my orthopedic guy. What I think is happened is that I had muscle cramps so severe that they pulled my vertebra slightly out of joint and I slipped or herniated a fucking disc in my neck. So now I've got a herniate disc in the neck. In my neck and I got to get surgery because

0:02:17 Tom: I slept wrong because I'm an old man piece of shit. That's

0:02:17 Thomas: My God. Well, slept wrong plus the 40 years of just pure trauma to your neck.

0:02:25 Eli: Yeah we don't know what a human body that consumes water on a regular basis might have done in that scenario Tom

0:02:26 Tom: That's true though. God damn it. It's probably it.

0:02:31 Thomas: That's where the water goes, actually. It goes. Yeah, it's like oil lube.

0:02:33 Tom: Right into the disc space

0:02:33 Eli: I like that your body is literally trying to kill you the way Scorpion killed himself in the Mortal Kombat movie

0:02:43 Thomas: Killed himself. I don't remember that. I like the newer one.

0:02:45 Eli: He turns his head all the way around

0:02:47 Thomas: Oh, man, I got to watch that again. This is the newer One.

0:02:47 Tom: What I gotta watch that movie

0:02:49 Thomas: It was good. It was Good. Are you talking about the old one? The old ones are so bad.

0:02:49 Tom: Again jesus christ so

0:02:48 Eli: It's the best yeah I was talking about the old one which is bad yeah not

0:02:55 Tom: I gotta like go through some of this fucking experience because people who are getting older and if you're not getting older this is what you get to look forward to so so here's to my guy right and And I was like, Hey, like this is intolerable and nothing helps. And it hurts all the time, no matter what. Like, so I went to the emergency room because like on Sunday I was doing okay with it until like, there came just a point where I just, all of a sudden wasn't like, it was like crazy. It was just like, I feel like crazy agitated and I couldn't, like, I just couldn't handle it anymore. And I WAS just in the middle of making dinner and I was like, Oh, I got to go to the emergency room right now. I can't do this right now and so the emergency room they gave me morphine and norco and gabapentin and it didn't do fucking anything

0:03:01 Eli: Me baby which

0:03:02 Thomas: Jesus wow

0:03:36 Eli: Is crazy they

0:03:36 Thomas: Yeah

0:03:37 Tom: Was like nothing literally

0:03:38 Eli: Gave me morphine is like they took off my leg during the civil war I

0:03:43 Tom: Did not care or notice like I got a weird body buzz from it but not even like much and my fucking blood pressure which is normally low is like through the roof right now and so like

0:03:54 Eli: Just like to say for the record I don't believe you I don't want to throw that out there

0:03:57 Tom: That it s normally low

0:03:58 Eli: That I don't believe you I

0:04:00 Tom: Yeah, no, my blood pressure is normally actually really good, but,

0:04:01 Thomas: Normally low in the same way that comcast is experiencing a higher than normal call volume yeah normally it's so it's all normally like the

0:04:10 Eli: Believe that your blood pressure is the ending scene of whiplash where he does the solo, even though Fisher doesn't want him to. That's what I think your normal blood pressure is.

0:04:21 Tom: Like I talked to my orthopedic doctor today, like the pain guy, you know, and he's like, oh, yeah, he's, like opiates don't, have any effect on nerve pain at all, really, he is, like that's, you should just stop taking them, they're nothing, and,

0:04:30 Eli: Them to your friend Eli.

0:04:30 Thomas: Death

0:04:31 Tom: He is, like you you can, can go up on the gabapentin he's like but to go up high enough to have any effect you're gonna have all these like side effects he's Like your best hope is the steroids that I'm taking but he's, they're you know, if they're not working they're

0:04:39 Thomas: Oh Oh, that was the sweet embrace of death.

0:04:43 Tom: Right. Yeah so as I looked at him I was like so there's literally there's like no pain management that's gonna have any impact and like think of it this way. He's like You've got a piece of your body pushing directly on a nerve root exiting your spine, which is basically like he's like it's like a telephone that is picked up that is calling your brain all the time saying something is wrong he's like there's no medicine that is going to fix that he'slike we can get you like a epidural cortisone injection which is what they're going to try and that's like just a bridge to get me to surgery like to make it like manageable to get to surgery which is whatever but then he goes through this whole thing of telling me like so I don't want you to do physical therapy because it wouldn't be safe for you to to do. And he's like, you're clearly in too much pain to try it. And he's, like, so I don't want you to do it until we get the MRI back. I don't think it's safe for you to try physical therapy. But your insurance company might require that

0:05:06 Thomas: Jesus. Oh,

0:05:35 Tom: You try six weeks of physical therapy.

0:05:37 Thomas: My Six weeks?

0:05:39 Tom: I almost fucking cried. I was, like... I can't do six weeks.

0:05:41 Thomas: Nobody's ever done six weeks of physical therapy, ever.

0:05:45 Tom: Was like, I believe in physical therapy! The numbers are good. The science is good for physical therapy, but I was

0:05:49 Eli: A lot, but I believe in physical therapy.

0:05:51 Thomas: Think big physical therapy is selling us a fucking bill of goods, personally.

0:05:55 Eli: Fake physical. Big physical.

0:05:54 Tom: Was, I don't know how like I'm gonna get through six hours like I know I have to but like I don t know how and I'm like six weeks he's like so here's what you gotta do he's like we're gonna do a peer -to -peer review when they reject your MRI he's like that will probably work but if it doesn't work I want you to go to this hospital and he told me which hospital to go to it's in his network yep no for it dude it's fuck yeah right yeah call paul luigi he's great you know he's uh toad's hooked him up so he's like I want you to go to this hospital it's on our network he's liking when they do the test so they have you do all these like strength tests to see if you've got uh bilateral strength differences right or unilateral strength differences like one side is different than the other he's a guy I don't want you push his heart on the right side where you have pain that will make it seem like you're having nerve involvement that's affecting structure right

0:06:13 Thomas: Want you to 3D print this gun. What a good doctor. He knows he needs to tell you that. He's like, I know you're going to try to do a personal max on this.

0:06:46 Eli: Gotta

0:06:42 Tom: But he's he's He's like, but he's telling, he is telling me like how to game the system to get the emergency room to get me the MRI if the fucking insurance won't do it. And I'm just like, we have the worst system with the worst system. It's so bad.

0:06:47 Eli: Do my best.

0:06:50 Thomas: What a system. Yeah, it's great. We're

0:07:03 Tom: I like, I like is like, clearly you should not be doing physical therapy. He's like, you're not a candidate for it. And he's like, we put it in as you're not a candidate for physical therapy.

0:07:01 Eli: Yeah,

0:07:03 Thomas: The envy of the world. Don't do anything to avoid physical therapy.

0:07:15 Eli: That's true. That's Tom. He hates to work out.

0:07:19 Tom: Well, dude, I got to tell you this story. So when I had my low back surgery, I went and did physical therapy afterwards. Cause that's what they tell you to do, right. To recover from it. And they're like, all right, so we're going to night. We need to try to like hold a plank for 30 seconds. And I was like, I can play for like four minutes. Like this is nothing. So like I hold a plank for 30 Seconds and I'm like, even like, so all this stuff they're having me do because I was in pretty good shape when I got the surgery was like nothing. And I was like, should we do something different? I'm like, this is like nothing, and they're like, no, this is the right protocol, and I'm, like, well, this nothing. I'm going to go home. Like, this is, I don't want to do this, so I just went home because it was nothing.

0:07:36 Thomas: Braggy. All right. Come after like 10 seconds.

0:07:56 Eli: You don't believe in physical therapy? You lied. You lied to our audience.

0:07:57 Tom: I didn't believe for a bad physical therapy, but it made a big difference when I tore my shoulder, so, I've got a tear in my shoulder, which is perfectly fine after physical therapy.

0:08:06 Eli: Have you tried just using your muscles and bones the amount they're supposed to be used? Like a ghost trying to escape a flesh prison? Have you considered just using your body like a machine you care about and you got a guy to maintain?

0:08:18 Tom: Dude no no this thing it doesn't

0:08:21 Thomas: On Tom's side on this one. It doesn't take anything anymore. It's just sleeping or something. I don't know. Or for me, it's working out like a bastard 48 hours a day. That health.

0:08:32 Eli: The Warhammer 30k universe, there are these orc, they have built their own titans, so they saw the humans have these big machines that attack people. And so the orcs have built just random ones out of scrap that are constantly being destroyed. And So part of the play mechanic is like, Hey, every time you do something, it works, but you also destroy your machine. That's your body.

0:08:54 Eli: Your body is the Warhammer. Your body is so similar to Warhammer 30 K in so many ways. Tom, you're a little bit grimdark. Can I say you're?

0:08:50 Tom: It's,

0:09:04 Eli: A little bit grimdark, but

0:09:04 Tom: Don't know what that means, but I'll take it. I guess it's so bad. It's so bad. This is the worst pain I've ever been in. I told the doctor, I was like, I would take meningitis over this any day of the week. This is ridiculous.

0:09:10 Thomas: That's awful, man.

0:09:15 Eli: Tom, Tom, Tom, you know the only thing worse than the pain you're experiencing right now? It's the auto ads, Tom. Yes, the auto ad. But unlike you, Tom, who will never see relief, never, not once in your whole life, our patrons can make those auto ads go away by just a dollar. Tom, would you pay a dollar to be out of the pain? You're in right now.

0:09:30 Tom: I think I would spare a dollar for that. Yeah, I would pay the dollar.

0:09:37 Thomas: Good news.

0:09:36 Eli: There you go. And you can see patreon

0:09:38 Thomas: Patreon .com slash GeraldAds is in network.

0:09:39 Tom: Well, there we go. I should have signed up. I shouldn't have fucking signed up Hey, if you're not a patron, I'm going to have some serious fucking medical bills.

0:09:41 Thomas: It It is in net. Network too.

0:09:47 Tom: Maybe hook a brother up oh my

0:09:43 Eli: We He is. He's gonna have very serious medical bills which will be largely uncovered because that's how the system works and so there's never been a better time patreon .com forward slash dear old dads like Tom to his own body rip into it yeah

0:09:53 Tom: It's a good system

0:10:05 Thomas: So I want to talk about this tweet that's making the rounds that's in our very own Daryl Dead's Facebook group even. And I just think it's you know, it's like all the discourse for a record breaking amount of time, probably like 20 hours, 16, 20 hours. Which, you know. Like a century in normal times. Yeah. Are talking about it.

0:10:19 Tom: Forever yeah

0:10:20 Eli: You wanna tell people about Charlie bit my finger while you're at it Batman

0:10:24 Tom: What

0:10:25 Thomas: Just. Are talking about it, and I think it's sentiments we've talked about before, but I think it's worth going through it because a of takes, especially after our bonus that I hope everyone caught on patreon .com slash dear old dads, where we actually listened to Andrew Tate talk. And it turns out he is the hundred year old guy from the movie. Eli, go.

0:10:47 Thomas: Chim Chimney, Chimchimney. Who's the guy who's still alive is about 108. Dick Van Dyke. That's it.

0:10:53 Eli: Dick somebody Dick Van Dyke Like, yeah,

0:10:53 Tom: Dick van dyke dick van

0:10:55 Thomas: Yeah. I didn't.

0:10:56 Tom: Dyke yeah he sounds just

0:10:57 Thomas: He sounds like that. I had no fucking idea that he sounded like that still. It's blowing my mind but

0:10:57 Tom: Like dick van dike all right so I'll read this tweet um I'm gonna read it exactly as written a brutal time for young men and to be raising one the primary message they now is get is you're bad without any meaningful attempt to offer for healthy pathways beyond don't be a boy absolutely perfect time for right -wing monsters to sweep in with shitty answers so there's a lot there and I know it's posted in the dad's group and I feel really sympathetic at least to the last half of that tweet like really sympathetic it's something that like we've talked about on this show it's Something I'm very very aware of I think it's actually at least half of a really important message but I'm curious where you guys

0:11:43 Eli: I feel like there's a sliver of really good conversation to be had in the Oreo of really not understanding historical context. I also think like there'S a really valuable conversation to BE had with the white stuff of that Oreo. But I also think that if we don't acknowledge the fact that the way that that question is framed is as significantly a part of the problem as the problem itself, we might be doing ourselves and men a disservice.

0:12:13 Tom: You mean by that tell me more about that that

0:12:14 Eli: So that that is great, right, which is we need to offer meaningful, healthy pathways to young men about toxic masculinity, right? When we don't do that, right -wing monsters sweep in with shitty answers. I think we all agree that fucking really true thing, really important. Part of the reason why we started the show is to contrary that.

0:12:30 Tom: Is the truth yeah yeah absolutely yeah part of the mission yeah

0:12:37 Thomas: Of the reason

0:12:39 Eli: Context around that is not true, which is that it's a brutal time to be everybody, but all things considered, it is the least brutal time to be a young man and to be raising one. Again it's the easy please

0:12:47 Thomas: Think

0:12:54 Tom: A minute hold on can I push on that do you think this is actually the least so I agree with that I think that I are there have certainly been better times it

0:12:59 Thomas: You might have misspoken did you mean that it was it's still like that's the least brutal demographic to be yeah

0:13:06 Tom: Yeah it's the least brutal demographic yeah I think I think it is absolutely that's the case I

0:13:06 Eli: Demographic yeah it's

0:13:10 Thomas: It's the old louis ck bit he could get in a time machine and go pretty much any time white dudes yeah not

0:13:14 Eli: Men could be right the the other thing is the primary message they get right now is you're bad that is and I no one is more guilty of this than me podcast listener that is a very I am in leftist spaces or I pretend to be in left spaces or I comment on leftist spaces because everything's a meta analysis of a meta analysis but it's worth pointing out that the primary message that young men get is not you're bad you're the main character of the universe

0:13:46 Thomas: At all yeah of everything thing. Eli and I didn't talk about this and Eli's not in the Facebook group. So it's, I was genuinely curious to hear his take ahead of time, but this was my take as well. Fully I agree, Tom, with with The Sentiment, think I with everybody here that there's some valuable stuff to take out of this, but I ever, I'm just so worried and I want to take on on this idea because, no, it's, tell me one thing. Me one place where men have received a, where Have received the message that they're bad. Tell Me one actual place. And if you can find it, cause I actually tried just to, like just really try to, you want to be fair about this. I can't think of it. The only thing I could think of would be a tweet or or a feminist saying something or whatever. And that's you know, who's not seeing that Arlo, like that. It's just not anything he would ever see, except that the right and the reactionary, the Tucker Carlson's, everybody make their entire living out of it, out of emphasizing any place that they think they can find anyone who's pushing back on the dominant, you you know like the, who's at the currently the top of the, the patriarchy and the racial hierarchy and any threat any slightly perceived threat to that dominance is viewed just overwhelmingly exaggeratedly and and in you look at something like the oscars and you look at the movies and and is even like you know within a few years the amount of men talking during those like they quantify the minutes of men taking versus women is it's like 90 10. It's like not even close.

0:14:12 Eli: Man Ohio it's because we get all the awards words, obviously. I mean, they should just, and look, can I say something brave? They should act better. They should just it's just they're not capable of Adrian Brody's AI accident. I mean, the way he sounds just like a computer in that movie, he deserves it. OK, so, yeah, no, I completely agree with you, Thomas. Not what I'll say. The only place I have actually heard someone straight facedly say the message of your bad is a meta analysis by a a liar saying they say you're bad you lost

0:15:58 Tom: Here's here's what I'm curious about do you guys go in in your social media feeds because this is primarily where

0:16:04 Eli: Me tom you lost me

0:16:04 Tom: So I I think primarily where young people are getting a lot of their messaging messaging about the world, about gender, about all of this stuff is coming into them or through them through social media, right? I think we would all agree with that, right, young men, you know, the 16 through 25 demographic, they're

0:16:21 Thomas: I'm not trying to be a dick. I don't know what they're. Are they looking at TikTok? Do you think because they don't look at the same shit we do? I know that we're old and we look at weird Instagram.

0:16:28 Tom: Think it's a combination of TikTok and Instagram, right. So it's probably, you know it's things like reels, it's like TikTok, right so if I go into my my reels, for example, my reeles thinks of me algorithmically as very much a stereotypical guy's guy.

0:16:44 Tom: And because I think, because I'm interested in fitness shit, right? So like a lot of the stuff that I'll click on is going to be fitness shit. And so it thinks of me as a very stereotypical guy's guide. My reels are full of the same kind of content that I'm sure my boys see.

0:16:43 Thomas: It's a school shooter yeah right hot

0:17:01 Tom: People lifting, itS people in the UFC fighting and it's an enormous amount of like dudes interviewing young women about about like you do you think about like a guy you know who doesn't make money or whatever right you guys have seen these right

0:16:59 Thomas: Sexy men oh

0:17:14 Eli: A guy gotta make

0:17:09 Thomas: God yeah I get those too actually yeah always gotta make how tall does he have to be it's the same fucking thing every time yeah

0:17:18 Tom: All of that stuff I think is is the additive messaging that the boys that 16 through 25 are swimming in, which is intended and created intentionally to make them think that they are living in a world that values them only for their financial contributions, right? There's a huge intended created workflow based on producing that message. I also think that the right, it's reality, right, right? That if you want to sell anything, what you have to do is sell the problem first. So this messaging that boys are getting, they're getting a message about the message. So what I mean by that is the right is telling them, hey, this is what you are perceived as, boys. And here are the ways that you are being told no, and you can't, andyou couldn't, and you shouldn't ,and you're bad. The right istelling them all that stuff. It's

0:17:39 Eli: 100 well

0:18:15 Tom: Not happening happening organically. I don't think that that actually matters because the intake of that message into young minds is still the same. The intake is, man, everybody is telling me that I'm a piece of shit. And even though that's not true, because the only people that are saying it are Andrew Tate's, right? Tade is saying, here's what people are telling you. And then you're like, oh.

0:18:34 Eli: He's saying is what people are telling you governor and I jim jiminy my brother ran a webcam business yeah

0:18:37 Thomas: Jim, Jim, money.

0:18:39 Tom: And think that's super, super important because it creates a vulnerability in order to to sell the solution and that's what any any good marketing does right it makes us feel small and insecure and less than that's why how fucking makeup companies work or you know car companies or anything they all do the same thing

0:18:59 Eli: I all my grapes call me fat it's the weird packaging's weird they

0:19:05 Tom: They they kind of do right but like like jokes aside like when when food commercials tell you how healthy something is the the subtext of that.

0:19:11 Thomas: Do call you fat.

0:19:13 Tom: Yeah. The subtext of that is your fat eat grapes.

0:19:13 Eli: Do I thought it was weird that they pause after all the hell things and they they put their glasses down on the bridge of their nose and they go eli but you know I think I figured that was because I didn't have an ad blocker or something but now I know

0:19:27 Tom: It's worth pointing out that reality matters a lot less than what you are told reality is and what you intake about about reality.

0:19:33 Thomas: Can't we go back to the good old days of the racially coded? Oh, what's the things that saying? Oh, God damn it. What's that commercial with the weird? Yeah. Can we go. Go back to The Weird, the raciously coded California. California, that's back when they used to be so positive and not tell you you're fat.

0:19:43 Eli: Let's all go to the lobby cancel

0:19:41 Tom: California raisins, the California raisings. God, dude, I was a California raisin for fucking Halloween one year. And now I look back at that costume. I'm like, that's blackface.

0:19:54 Thomas: That is awesome.

0:19:56 Eli: Him cancel him get him fucking get him get him podcast listener while

0:19:56 Thomas: Is now you can't be the prime minister anymore. Yeah.

0:19:57 Tom: I was basically, you know, edit that out. Can you please edit that I don't want that.

0:20:03 Eli: He's got get him while he is in nerve pain while he was lying there while they're putting a needle in his eyeball to get to his neck I hope you all fucking tweet and he loses his real job don't just lose him podcasting lose him his real job lose him is real job his kids are moving in soon lose it lose his house let's take his house away so that when his kids show up, someone else lives there. That's what you should, that's how you make it better. That'll fix it, everybody. If we lose Tom, his house.

0:20:10 Thomas: Like karma finally caught up to you. Yeah.

0:20:14 Tom: There you go. Oh, God. Jesus Christ, man. Jesus.

0:20:23 Thomas: Uh I just had to google the california raises to make sure I wasn't imagining what that was and yeah no that's wow tom I can't believe you're such a racist personally

0:20:43 Tom: I didn't know I was, like, seven.

0:20:44 Thomas: Did you also wear the klan hood with it like was that part of it

0:20:45 Eli: If you, it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter, acknowledge the harm, lose your house, replace your face, take Tom's house away, everybody, so I want to draw a distinction Because I think you made a really amazing point, which is that the message we are getting is that we are bad. And I completely agree with that. The way I interpret that tweet, he said, desperate to kill himself in that time and place. Uh, way I interpreted that tweet is you're bad because you're a man, right?

0:20:48 Tom: I was six god yeah

0:21:17 Eli: It is your madness that makes you bad. That, I don't think, is a message that's being delivered. Your bad generally, I think, is a massage that's been delivered to everybody. I think it's being deliver at least to men.

0:21:17 Tom: Yeah but I think it's being delivered here what's interesting I think it's been delivered newly to men I don't think men have been delivered this message in mass before the same way that like women have right so we've been telling women ever since the fucking birth of media all the different ways all of the ways that women are not enough failing less than like

0:21:47 Eli: Since they ate that apple.

0:21:49 Thomas: Apple told eve she was fat that was the thing yeah eat more more apples oof gaining some weight

0:21:58 Eli: You sure? I hear that fruits are good for you. Very healthy.

0:22:05 Tom: The messaging we've given to women forever has been this really detrimental you're or not enough messaging, right? So it's always been delivered to women. I don't think that up until recently that message has been delivered to men in the same way because I don'T think that the grifters identified up until recent and through social media how impactful they could be in that space by delivering this sort of insecurity messaging. And so I think that that's and sociologically it feels new.

0:22:36 Eli: Also think it was much harder to do before income inequality was as prominent as it is. Right. Because it was really hard to tell someone who had a job as a mailman they could retire from at 50. Like you aren't enough. It's like, no, I am enough. I bought my house with my job and I go to work and my kiddo don't be gay. Right. Like there was a lot of there were a lot OF reinforcements for why someone could be enough. Right. Society did a really good job for reinforcing for people that they were providers. And now, again, part of the right wing grift is the reason things are wrong for you is because brown people are taking your jobs and women are sluts, right? Because otherwise people might come to the conclusion that Elon Musk has more money than any of us could ever spend in all of our lifetimes combined and we should cut him up and eat him, right. Right? And so they need us not to discover that, so they focus on the brown people are taking your job.

0:23:31 Tom: I think too, too, like up until fairly recently, men didn't have to try real hard with women. Right. Because up until very.

0:23:39 Eli: Couldn't get a credit card without you. You want an Amex?

0:23:40 Tom: Yeah. Up until very recently. Yeah, women were not able structurally were unable to be financially independent. Now we're in a new space where women are graduating from college at a higher rate. The double income is now a standard in households. The used to be be the case for a long time that like, if you were a guy, you didn't have to try that hard, right? Because like women needed you in order to survive financially in the world. We built structures and institutions that supported that. Once those have been broken, now the reality is that like now men actually have to drive. Just being alive and having a checkbook isn't enough to create a space for women to flock in, right? So women are like, yeah, fucking being single is a great option and there's a huge amount of pushback it's I always click on my social media whenever I see something that's like yeah you know like fucking being a fucking childless cat lady is amazing right I always clic on that and I always read the men's comments and there are so many of them and they're so reactionary they're aggressively reactionary and I think built into that reactionary space like what you can read in that subtext is so So much of what you read in this tweet is that men feel intensely insecure for the first time about their value to society. We've told women forever that they were valueless, right? That's not new messaging. But now men also have to earn their place. They have to own their own their place, like sexually and social

0:25:10 Tom: Sexually, like with women.

0:25:10 Thomas: But I don't think so though

0:25:12 Tom: And it's different.

0:25:12 Thomas: I still I can't tell like I feel like we agree But I also just think the do, look, primary it's always going to be a good idea to get positive masculinity out there. It's always gonna be a great idea for and reason, like it just is. The But primary solution to this problem is taking on the fact that this is a lie being spread exactly for the reason that Eli said it is entire. And it's not part of their agenda. It's their entire agenda. It's all they do. If you watch Tucker Carlson, it is all threat. It's all here's in group that it's out here we are the in group and here's how they are doing this to you and they'll say things like well I don't even know if I'm allowed to have boys anymore I can't even my boys don't allow is it okay if they have a p and you're like what what is that from what disagree with me on this I invite you to if you have a boy uh if you're raising boys like it like I I am minor. A So pretty young. But like, please tell me a time. Think of a tangible time when your boy got the message that that they are bad for being a boy. And compare that to the very tangible ways we that we send girls, those messages. And I'm not talking about media. I'm not even talking about media in their everyday lives. The dress codes, the way we enforce this shit on girls and it's we police their bodies. And it's this creepy thing where, you middle middle -aged dudes who work at schools can like police how short their shorts are, all this stuff, stuff that like Lydia got policed for in school still sticks with her to this day. Like those things are real everyday things that actually happen in normal lives. And the boys get to be the heroes of everything. They get to me the, The, the, if there's any place where your young boy has received this message and maybe there is, I would put it against all the ways you're probably not conscious of because they're the water we swim in, that boys are told they're the heroes of every single story. They're the main character of every simple thing, ad it's a fake problem.

0:26:52 Tom: Agree with everything that you said, but I'm not sure that structurally that matters in terms of fixing the problem. And what I mean by that is like, as long as young men are groomed to believe this bullshit, I don't think it's enough to just tell them it's bullshit. I just don't Think that that affects people as much, especially young people young minds like it's it's sort of like you known for fucking ever all kinds of you know conspiracy bullshit's been debunked and debunk to debunk and it continues to grow in popularity not shrink in popularity like the fact that something is true everything you say is true the fact That like something is True doesn't mean that like people are going to be persuaded by the truth of it I think people need to be Persuaded emotionally first especially when it comes to counteracting messages that are delivered to them in emotionally significant ways. If you just tell boys like, well, it's harder to be a girl and here's all the reasons. And like, you know, like they're going to be like, yeah, but I'm not a girl. And this is hard for me. And this person is speaking to my experience. And even though it's not a real experience they're having, they're being told that it is and it's resonating. And we know that's working because that messaging is growing with men and not shrinking. So

0:28:08 Tom: They're not seeing through it. So I feel like, like the counter to this isn't like, Hey, is reality. You're not living in reality. Like, well, sure.

0:28:14 Thomas: Well, step one, the counter to it is turn it off. Like, I mean, we could talk about, there's obviously going to be different places. No, I know there's, but the, first, yeah, the first level of defense is going to be keep this stuff away from your kids. No, I mean, I mean we all agree. Like the first -level defense is keep kids from watching Andrew Tate, if you can, if possible. And I agree that that doesn't solve everything, but what's

0:28:21 Tom: I didn't mean to say it that way. Yeah.

0:28:25 Eli: It nice. Yeah.

0:28:29 Tom: Yeah.

0:28:35 Eli: Max loves him. I'm not turning it off. No turning it off. He's a big fan.

0:28:37 Thomas: It's the delightful accent, you know.

0:28:39 Tom: Where I worry is that 16 to 25 bracket where you, we're not really in control, you know, like that's cause like once the kids are 15, 16, like have no no real meaningful control about what they see and like what they're exposed to. They go to school, they've got a phone, their friends have a phone. Even if you've got locks on hers or his, you it'S know, a weird world, man. Like you, once the kids are like 14, 15, 16, like your level of access and control to what they See is basically zero.

0:29:08 Eli: Asterisk.

0:29:08 Tom: It's crazy. Even like I say, even if you're Eli and you like monitor their phone, you're not monitoring their friend's phones. Well, Eli is okay.

0:29:09 Thomas: Unless you're the Eli Bosnick story. Okay.

0:29:16 Tom: All right. If you're anybody, but Eli Bosnick, you know, that's

0:29:16 Eli: I was going to say asterisk,

0:29:17 Thomas: You're not committing several cyber crimes. Oh, wait. Eli is. Yeah, sorry.

0:29:21 Eli: Think I won't hack into the grid itself Tom I need hobbies

0:29:26 Tom: It was always a huge impetus as to why I started my blog was to create a space that was like very, here is what you can do to be a good man. Like here are the things and ways you you can try to be and think and move through the world because like, I don't want the entire messaging to be like, it needs to be a positive message, not a negative message, like a do not, do not message. I think that's a really key point of that, of is that if, if messaging is do this and you'll be successful, do this, and good things will happen in your life, do this. And this will build happiness and joy and fulfillment and connection. That's a message I I think that works. I really believe that. I think that's a message that works, I think the do not message, especially for young people that do not is not a strong message. I think do not as a is a weak message for the emotionality of teenagers. Do you know what I mean by that? Does that make sense?

0:30:19 Eli: Absolutely yeah

0:30:20 Thomas: I think so. I think we have to talk about a few different things. Like there's what can we do in our homes and what can we try to do as a society. And I think we largely agree Except that I do think it's more significant maybe than you're granting that this is made up, because I think that's a number one priority is we cannot buy into this framing and we all need to push back on this because it's imaginary. It's imaginary and buying into it does not work in the same way that you don't buy into the trans athletes. You don't buy into the whatever you don't buy into them immigrants, the whatever, whatever it is buying into their premise.

0:30:53 Tom: All into immigrants. Yeah. I'm into trans athlete immigrants. Actually, that's like my thing.

0:30:56 Eli: Stop

0:30:57 Thomas: But by now, yeah, the, minute we buy into their framing, we lose every time. Like it's just repeated every single time the minute We buy. So it's very important to me that the primary thing we do is not grant that this is real because it is not real. And then secondarily for our homes and our kids I think we're all gonna do what we can to a keep our kids away from this shit and they can only watch future arlo as a streamer and not other you know not future fucking incel instead uh no and other like good sources of information and b we're gonna try to raise them such that their values would mean that when they see this it it isn't as effective for them and

0:30:58 Eli: Trying to buy immigrants side note

0:31:36 Thomas: That's what we're going to try to do good

0:31:37 Eli: Side note about future Arlo the streamer I would like to give a shout out to the person who recommended he they very sweetly they were like hey just so you know like there are a lot of people who are faced with Arlo's situation and and they become VTubers, where there's sort of like an animated cartoon character in one corner rather than showing their real face. And can I say there's never been a more blatant attempt by our audience to turn one of our children into a furry? Like, it's a really inappropriate line you've all just crossed.

0:32:03 Thomas: I would rather not that yeah

0:32:06 Eli: Just being like, oh, I drew this fox, and he doesn't wear a shirt. That's just the only thing you need to understand about him. But yeah, Varla wants to use this sexy fox. But No, but seriously, that was a very sweet email. I don't want that person to feel rejected, but you are absolutely trying to turn.

0:32:13 Thomas: It was absolutely them trying to recruit my child into a furry ring.

0:32:22 Eli: The furries are recruiting. We're going to take that stance here on Dear Old Dads. Regardless of sexuality or gender identity, the furries aren't recruiting, and they're recruiting hard.

0:32:28 Tom: We going to get emails from the furries about why are you making fun of the furies again

0:32:35 Thomas: I think they know what they're doing.

0:32:35 Eli: Furries are already inside our

0:32:37 Thomas: I Think They Know It.

0:32:37 Eli: Computers. The furries are the top of society technologically. If the furries want into our email, they'll send it from your account through your wife's account to your doctor it'll show up on your mri if the first yeah they

0:32:49 Thomas: Eli should know. The furries are who he uses to set up his stocking

0:32:50 Tom: I can't even like imagine like a fucking intelligence squared debate where like you know somebody's a furry on one podium there's just like a regularly dressed person you're like why are you not taking me seriously it's like I don't know man you're a squirrel right now

0:33:01 Eli: Would destroy us they would destroyed us they

0:32:54 Thomas: On your MRI. Yeah. I think the furries are going to be like, Eli, you got us. You call this out. We were trying to recruit Arlo into our society. They get it. They know what they're doing.

0:33:08 Tom: We would oh yeah I

0:33:14 Thomas: They're not they're not mad.

0:33:14 Eli: Know they know that I know

0:33:16 Thomas: They'RE like, ah, lovable scamps. No. So trying to instill keep the values into them, which would prevent hopefully this from taking hold. And I get that that's all theoretical. It's all what we're trying to do. And then after After that, I don't know. Lock them in a prison once they don't if they once they go down, because honestly, once they go down that Tate rabbit hole, it's going to be hard to get them back, whoever it is. And I think that like that's where I would put the order of priority. And all along, we should have good messaging around masculinity anyway, because that's what we should be doing all along. So it's like I think that's That's, where I see my priorities in this this personally I

0:33:15 Tom: Know I know yeah

0:33:16 Eli: I get it

0:33:52 Tom: I think maybe one reason I might feel don't know maybe maybe more sympathetic to this whole viewpoint is I do remember when I was a teenage boy and I was like you know my dad I think I mentioned before my dad was was was really, really strict. So I was really socially isolated. Because I was so socially isolated, I sense of myself. I had pretty low self -esteem. I did not have strong sense in my own self, my own worth and my own value at all. And so I think I would have been pretty susceptible to this messaging, you because like I was not, I didn't feel like I understood my place and my value and how to like add value to my life and add value to other people's lives in tangible ways. I was really unsure about, well, why would somebody want to spend time with me? People weren't, and I didn't know why they would. So it was a very confusing space. And understand, I think on a gut level, why some of this messaging would really appeal to somebody who's feeling vulnerable. And why this messaging? Because it's a roadmap. It's a bad roadmap .It's a terrible roadmap. But they tell you, here are Here are true things about the world, about men, about women, and none of them are true, but this is what they're saying. Here a roadmap for you to be successful and happy and get respect from men and women. And I think if you're a certain kind of person who is in a position,

0:35:14 Tom: It's so much, like it's so much. I'm sorry.

0:35:13 Eli: Being in pain tom delin people are gonna gonna think you're pooping while you podcast it's very rude

0:35:19 Tom: Know it's, it

0:35:19 Thomas: Know it's an elaborate cover story for the giant shit he's definitely taking

0:35:24 Tom: Like grabs hold sometimes. It's so Much. Yeah.

0:35:26 Eli: It out buddy just stretch

0:35:27 Tom: I don't know why I'm not doing that.

0:35:28 Eli: It out just do a lot of head circles

0:35:32 Tom: So I think I'm sweating. Wedding so I think I'm sympathetic to that because there's they're offering tangible advice and I guess like what what I'm very conscious of is offering better tangible advice you know what I mean like here's the tangible roadmap you can live that will make you successful that will build connections with women that will built respect among your peers that's what these take guys are saying all of the manosphere guys are saying here's a roadmap follow it and if you're a certain kind of vulnerable insecure young person who doesn't understand your value in the world and you're trying to make your way in a society that is rapidly shifting. I think that that is like fuck. Okay, somebody wrote it down for me.

0:36:15 Tom: Okay. I get it and I think that's that's the reason young men are vulnerable to that and I can see myself in that space when I was seventeen or eighteen and didn't know my ass from a a hole in the ground and wasn't sure where my value came from and had no experience whatsoever with the opposite sex. And would have made me very vulnerable to this kind of messaging in the right circumstances.

0:36:35 Eli: I mean look I've talked about it before but like that was why I fell for 9 -11 trutherism right my road to 9 -1 -1 truther ism was was that it got me No, it was that like I had a bad experience with police. Right. And I was really struck by the injustice of it. And all

0:36:42 Thomas: Got you laid wait you're white do you mean sting in the police or I

0:36:55 Eli: The yeah, no, stinging the police. I went to their concert. It was so disappointing. I

0:36:57 Tom: That karmic sex or whatever just lasted way too long it's chafee after a while yeah

0:37:01 Eli: Four hours. I was like, I want you to come, man. I don't I'm not excited for another hour of this. And he was like walking fields of gold. Oh, God, it was the worst. But I had this really awful experience and sort of the mainstream that the honest people were like, hey, you kind of deserved that, which I kind of did. Like, obviously, I didn't deserve to be like treated badly, but like I was snarky and I was privileged and I wasn't. I was unaware and I Was committing a crime and I I was doing a lot of bad choices and the people who were offering me sympathy were the crazies dragging me down the 9 -11 truth or rabbit right? The way I ended up at the 9 -11 truth or rabbit hole was the system's been against the people who know the truth. That's how it got me there. My question, and I think you've both just spoken to that, so I don't need to reemphasize it. My question is, we're in charge of society, right? Let's pretend for a moment. We're in charges of society. We're the Jews, right.

0:37:58 Tom: We're white men we are in charge of society yeah so I just assume yeah premise granted

0:38:00 Thomas: Worth the Jews

0:38:02 Eli: We are the Jews. Um the practicalities of it how do you fix that is there a positive masculine version of a streamer that needs to be created do we need a positive masculin workout culture and if those things are needed why have they failed so spectacularly to take on like because that's the thing that I I can't really wrap my head around and that I that I hope you guys have better answers for is like,

0:38:30 Thomas: Let me know when you want the bum review I'll go last

0:38:34 Eli: Like agree that all these good things need to exist, but with the exception of children's programming, which spoiler alert if you're listening through the fucking backlogs might not exist by the time you hear this episode, like with the exception of Children's Programming, absolutely nothing positive has ever thrived ever. My

0:38:56 Tom: Here's here's why I think that that is. I really believe this. Like, think a lot of the good messaging that is the anti -Tate, anti -manosphere messaging very well intentionally tries to recenter conversations. And the problem is that if I am a young person, I am selfish person and I want messaging that centers me because that's how young minds work. And I think that we've done a poor job overall of doing the the thing that the right has done well, which is to build a literal roadmap for young men specifically that addresses their insecurities and vulnerabilities. We don't do that. Instead, we try to justifiably recenter the conversation on who is actually in danger and who has actually been harmed because that's how we have all as adult people come to understand our responsibility to the world, but that's not the right message for teenage minds. Teenage minds are selfish, individual minds. They need messaging that says, hey, whether it's real or not, and it's not, you want a message about you. You want a way that you can be successful in the world with women, with school, with your peers, and these roadmaps to the kinds of social success. If you just break down what the right has done, that's all they've done. We've not done it. So there isn't a counter message that centers and focuses on young teenage boys and 20 -something boys. And if we don't do that, what we do is we make the world less safe for women. By creating less safe men, we make a less safe world for women, we can't create a more safe world for women by asking teenage boys to look outside themselves, there is no more selfish creature on earth than a teenage person. Person they just are not externally driven typically they're inside they're trying to figure out their world and we're not speaking to that experience well enough we

0:40:59 Eli: Question is could we right could

0:41:01 Tom: Could yeah I think shows like this could do it yeah I

0:41:01 Eli: Could we create oh that's it pretty to think so yeah

0:41:05 Thomas: He's not he's on a lot of pain meds we'll we'll give him

0:41:05 Tom: Think so I'm not on any none of them work that's the problem

0:41:09 Thomas: Tom sure

0:41:08 Eli: I get it can I get some of that morphine where our podcast is gonna fix anything uh

0:41:11 Thomas: Buddy buddy. Yeah. Yeah,

0:41:12 Tom: Can have all of it do you not think so do you Not think that we can build like I'm overly optimistic I think some like again it's mine so like fuck me I'm of course like but I think something like my blog is a positive series of actionable steps that's how I've tried to write it stuff like that more of it at a higher level like I'm nobody but like well

0:41:32 Eli: For me it's not about the lack of good things because I actually think there's a lot of good stuff out there I just don't know why it never like is there a thing like that that is positive that could achieve popularity because

0:41:47 Thomas: That's the key.

0:41:48 Tom: Maybe we're not doing the first part of the sale right the first Part of the Sale is to say I see that you're vulnerable like I said in the beginning right if you want to sell anything you got to sell the problem first. Maybe we're not selling the problem. Maybe we're saying I see you and then here's the solution.

0:42:02 Eli: Tom

0:42:02 Thomas: I think that like okay so negative take but I think realistic take we are yeah

0:42:08 Eli: Was the positive take Jesus

0:42:09 Thomas: Yeah he was you hear me was like people will read my blog and it'll no I'm just kidding it

0:42:14 Tom: Going to read my blog. I know that. I don't know.

0:42:16 Thomas: Think the messages that are correct are harder by a lot And I think that's a force that on scale we have a very, very difficult time countering the messages, like especially when it comes. Look, historically, the further back you go, the worse it is when it come to a group with unearned privilege that's come at the cost of other marginalized groups. Groups, there's not really a good way to say you still get to be the hero and you still get to have every advantage and everything and you lose nothing in a way that still actually does any good for anyone else. I think you can try to come up with on a small scale, I think what Tom's talking about is good, but in terms of mass popularity, I just think it's so much harder. I think it'S so much hard to make that message sell. So another thing I was going to say is every academic I've talked to every and I've talked to a lot on my shows, they're the nicest, most understanding, usually like there's no there's lot of like, I don't know, psychologists, sociologists, whatever come in that says, well, first thing is men need to cut their balls off. They all fucking suck. Like they don't do that. The people we hear from in society, for one, I won't reiterate it, but, you we hear from Tucker Carlson's version of what it is. And for two, even when we hear the more positive or the side we more agree with, we hear the people who are salespeople, like in everything, you only hear from the people who are good at selling their message because everything is a sales job in an attention economy that's very, very difficult to compete in. So like the people Who are having the good thoughts and doing the good work and like, like, you know, studying this stuff and trying to take compassionate approaches. Never are they the people who are good at selling what they're doing. And so

0:44:03 Thomas: We always get this stuff second or third hand and the sales job. Yeah. And some of those people are bullshit. Like even on our side, they're not the best, you know, and what might sell to our side sometimes, and this is where the Tucker Tucker Carlson's get their ammo, what might sell on our side, uh, more of that, um, anger the other way is more the, uh—I'm sorry, Tom's coming in the background. I should, uh… No, it's okay. It's over. At least announce that you're coming. That we've—that's the rule on the show.

0:44:06 Tom: Dude. That's exactly it.

0:44:26 Eli: Rude thank you yeah

0:44:26 Tom: I'm sorry. Okay. Is that the rule? I didn't know that was that's a new rule. 200 episodes and now you're going to tell me I

0:44:37 Thomas: You thought Eli was just doing that for him. No, that's for me. Me yeah the where was I the the

0:44:40 Tom: Was finished so I don' know where you were yeah

0:44:45 Thomas: Tiger carlson's get their ammo from the people who are doing the sales job the other way because they exist I'm not saying there's nowhere that there's people with a message of men are the problem and you know because kind of because they are like I actually agree that men are largely the problem so that's me but like that's not a thing our kids hear ever um the people get that message from some of those people and And we never hear from the original sources. It's all the salespeople who are finding their way to get their message across. And the of that attention economy is that the things that are true are not necessarily, if ever, going to be the things that catch attention. It's just like, it's so hard.

0:45:23 Tom: Here's here's what I'm thinking though like legit we should start

0:45:25 Thomas: Lie to everyone.

0:45:26 Tom: No look it's I think you're exactly right like I wrote a note about that like the

0:45:27 Eli: Should start a Hey, do you like it when someone does that while you talk, Tom? You rude motherfucker.

0:45:43 Tom: The the guys on the right are successful because they're making money on it they're all grifting they're All making a ton of money on It and I almost feel like we reason we don't have good sales guys is because we got a bunch of fucking academics who aren't making any money on this we need to make money on No no the solution is to build roadmaps and sell them because then then that will drive good salespeople. Like

0:46:07 Eli: Drop shipping. Liberal drop shipping.

0:46:07 Thomas: But sell

0:46:10 Tom: But like, I'm not, I don't think I'm wrong though. Like ifI'm a good sales guy, right? What do I want to sell? I don'T want to SELL a bad product. I want, I'M going to, if I'M good at sales, I'M GOING around and I'M SHOPPING MYSELF.

0:46:18 Thomas: Me this pen this sorry sell me this pen at pen 15 oh that's such a sort of good joke I

0:46:25 Tom: I'M, but know what I mean? Like if Iím a good Salesman, like I'M not asking you for a job. What I'M doing is I'M Going around finding the best thing that I can sell to make myself the most money because I know I'm good at this. So it's a reverse economy, right? If I'm a good salesman, I'm interviewing you, not the other way around. That's how it just is. I think the right has better salespeople because there's a fucking profit motive attached to it. And our messaging, we're trying to give away for free. So all the good sales guys are like, why would I fucking work for you? All the good propagandists and marketers and sales talkers, they're not going to work for their left. They're not going to work for this message because there's no money to be made I actually think maybe we got to make some money on it no

0:46:58 Thomas: Think it's the other way I that was correct, but I think it's a restatement of the problem. I think the reason there's no money in it is because of our selfish nature and the fact that these messages resonate more. I THINK...

0:47:16 Tom: We got to sell supplements we got I said oh yeah we got to sell boner pills or supplements or fucking whey protein or something like here's the thing like if the messages work out a little more right like treat people better and here's your whey protein fine what's the worst case scenario a bunch of people go to the gym and are nice to other people and I sell whey routine we should be selling whey protein isolate that's all that's my my whole answer, whey protein isolate.

0:47:18 Thomas: All right. Boner pills. Boner pills for feminism. No, that's fine. I agree. Tom, you're the only one of us who can actually do that. So, So, so I mean me with the right angles, I can pretend I work out. So I'll try to help, but it's Tom.

0:47:42 Eli: Got a plan. All yeah.

0:47:47 Thomas: This is on you, Tom. This is On You.

0:47:47 Tom: There you go. Lighting, lighting is everything.

0:47:49 Thomas: Yeah.

0:47:49 Eli: I seem to be an enjoyer of whey. Maybe I can go for the flavor.

0:47:52 Thomas: Eli can be the before pic.

0:47:54 Eli: Exactly. Right, right gentlemen before we go did you know taylor swift was named after albert einstein about 110 years after yeah

0:48:12 Tom: Oh my God.

0:48:14 Thomas: Stupid.

0:48:15 Tom: So, so, so stupid. Oh my fucking God.

0:48:23 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads .com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILf, tom smith who also wrote and recorded the intro music which is used with his permission this podcast is a production of daddy issues llc copyright 2022 all rights reserved

0:49:04 Thomas: Don't do anything to avoid physical therapy. Is the hundred year old guy from the movie. Eli, go.

0:49:14 Tom: Man, everybody is telling me that I'm a piece of shit. And

0:49:18 Eli: Gonna gonna think you're pooping while you podcast it's

0:49:20 Thomas: That's such a sort of good joke I

0:49:23 Eli: Tom not

0:49:24 Tom: How you doing I'm sorry

0:49:25 Eli: Too bad you just you're just breathing you were just

0:49:30 Tom: So hard eli it hurts more than I've ever heard it's so bad it's like so bad I know I know like

0:49:39 Eli: You're like my pug breathing how's kiddo don't be gay. Right. I want you to come, man. I

0:49:46 Thomas: Sexy men oh

0:49:50 Tom: Feels good right finished so I don' know where you were yeah