WTW83: Columbia University Cancelled Her Class, but She's Doing It Anyway

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:03 Clip: What's so scary about the woke mob, how often you just don't see them coming.

0:00:11 Clip: Anywhere you see diversity, equity, and inclusion, you see Marxism, and you see woke principles being pushed.

0:00:19 Clip: Wokeness is a virus more dangerous than any pandemic hands down. The woke monster is here, and it's coming for everything, everything, everything, and everything. Instead of go-go boots, the seductress green M &M will now wear sneakers.

0:00:41 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Where There's Woke. This is episode 83. I'm Thomas Smith. That over there is Lydia Smith. And can I just say, I know it's kind of that we hear it every time, but I miss when the green M &M was the thing. Gosh, I'm pining for the green М &M. Yeah, hi. It's been very clear throughout our relationship that the green Eminem comes first and then you're second.

0:00:55 Lydia: Also, hi. OK, I'll exit stage left.

0:01:08 Thomas: We all know this.

0:01:08 Lydia: Yeah, I don't know. I also long for that time. You good we had it.

0:01:13 Thomas: Geez, when they were screaming about a green M &M not being sexy enough. Yeah. Well what are we going to be talking about today? Oh, hi. How are you doing?

0:01:16 Lydia: Freaking babies. I.

0:01:22 Thomas: It was so rude of you to not say hi to me.

0:01:25 Lydia: I have a very special guest. Her name is Karen Atiyah and Washington Post readers. Recognize that name. She's an columnist over there, has done editing for the global opinions column for The Washington Post. But she also recently stepped into academia, something that she expresses, you know, that she's always wanted to do. And where she stepped into is, you know, small little state college or anything. It was Columbia University at the height of Israel -Palestine and the protests and encampments that were taking place on that campus.

0:02:01 Thomas: Oaf. OK, that's it. That's an interesting time to get to happen to have gotten into it.

0:02:08 Lydia: Interesting time. And not just that. Her course, it wasn't like calculus, which I bet you wish it were calculus, hon. Yes. It wasn't. It

0:02:14 Thomas: Do. Yeah." So yet another time you fooled me into bringing my graphing calculator to a recording. My TI -86.

0:02:28 Lydia: You can still write boobs like upside down.

0:02:31 Thomas: I can graph boobs with this thing. Kidding me? This isn't a solar powered, like little tiny. This is the real deal.

0:02:35 Lydia: So why are you complaining? T

0:02:42 Thomas: And you're right. I'm not complaining. I have it every time anyway.

0:02:45 Lydia: Yeah. So it was a really interesting time, a really interested class, and who was really eager to impact students' lives at her alma mater in the same way that she felt her life was impacted and started her career for journalism. And

0:03:00 Thomas: Well, and we should say teaching about race and teaching about important topics that now are illegal. I think I'm, I'm sure I haven't checked, but like they might, for all we know, there's at least an executive order saying we can't talk about them. Probably.

0:03:15 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. So we we into a lot of conversation about the course that she developed and that journey towards that, but also what it was like to be at Columbia at that time and teaching that class. And when she expected I don't want to give too much away, but when she suspected that the class, which had rave reviews, was well enrolled. Expected fully to be teaching it again the following spring semester and to have that rug pulled out from under her, surprisingly, with really no explanation as to why. And that whole just journey.

0:03:52 Thomas: We think we have a guess as to why. We'll talk about it.

0:03:54 Lydia: Yeah, we have some pretty good guesses. But it's a fascinating conversation from someone that I think has really Taken the time during this administration, especially to listen to her voice and figure out how she can act.

0:04:09 Thomas: Yeah, it's also nice to have like we're trying to have something a little more positive. So this is a bit of a change of pace. So we're so excited to speak I'm excited to get over to it. Of course, we'll take our usual break, which you can avoid at patreon.com/wherethereswoke. Please support the show. Every little bit helps, really. And it's the difference between this voice being out there and not.

0:04:38 Thomas: This show and what we're trying to do, it really feels more important than ever. So we thank you so much for supporting us, for listening, for sharing. Any of that stuff that you can do means a ton. So patreon .com slash where there's woke. And you can avoid those ads if you go there. Like, say, such as maybe this one right now. All right. After this, we'll get

0:05:04 Lydia: Thanks so much for joining us today. Excited to with you. But before we kind of dive into what caught my eye on Blue Sky and started our conversation, I was wondering if you wanted to just kind of give a little bit of background information, you know, kind of your what you're up to these days. And then we'll dive into the yeah, your top five desserts.

0:05:22 Thomas: Top five desserts.

0:05:25 Lydia: Exactly.

0:05:25 Karen: 'All are starting already.

0:05:26 Lydia: Yes. Non -Tiramisu controversy.

0:05:32 Karen: Sure. My name is Karen Atiyah, and I am a columnist for the Washington Post. I am also known for being an amateur movie tie fighter, cat mom to Artemis the cat, and a, was a professor. A little too briefly, at Columbia's School of International and Public Affairs, teaching race, media, and international affairs. Wear a lot of very, very different hats, for

0:06:03 Lydia: Yeah, so the course at Columbia, is that your alma mater? Am I remembering that correctly?

0:06:10 Karen: So I went to, well, if we're going to get into my villain origin story, I went I went a like philosopher. I was always interested in questions in general. And I, went to Northwestern and that's sort of where I started like bit into journalism, but being on the student radio current affairs shows and things like that. So And. I got the opportunity to study radio journalism in Ghana on a Fulbright scholarship. And then after coming back, I started grad school at Columbia's School of International and Public Affairs. And it was then that I just, I loved that experience. I loved being in a global environment. I And that's when I made a pivot then even to not go into kind of, you World Bank type of stuff. That's when really wanted to become a journalist because I didn't want to sort of sit in Washington deciding, you from far away, what was best for people's lives and ocean away. I wanted it to actually be able to talk to people and have them. Explain in their own words what their lives were like, what they needed, what their problems were, what the joys were, all that. So that's led to me spending a year in a Caribbean island, Curacao, freelancing for the Associated Press. And then after that. Decided to come back to Washington. And not too long after that, this was 2013, I started at the Washington Post and have been there, sorry, 2014, have been ever since in the opinion section. So wore during my time at the Post so far from an editor. To now being a columnist writing on basically anything I want, which is nice. But I say people are like, what's your beat? And I'm like, my beat is liberation,

0:08:13 Karen: Basically. But specifically, yes, I do write a lot about culture, race, feminist issues from the, I would say, you know, a Black, African, diasporic, internationalist perspective. So. All of those experiences led me to want to teach at the intersection of race, the constructs of race and how we see the world, literally the world order, how nations relate to one another can be seen. Or at least are parallel to our of identity, who the we and we is, who them and the other is, right?

0:08:55 Lydia: Yeah.

0:08:55 Karen: And me, it was a chance to teach this at SIPA, the place that I feel like, in a way, birthed my internationalist perspective. And I basically was just like, I just want to... the course that I never had, right? Someone coming from African immigrant parents who's interested in the world but never saw my histories or people like me represented in the canon, so to speak, I was like, here's my chance to make a bit of an intervention and teach this at the graduate level. So I loved it. I loved that opportunity.

0:09:31 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. And you got to teach it, right? It was it was last spring.

0:09:35 Karen: Last spring, spring of 2024. And then SIPA had been trying to get me for, for a few years. Of course it was during COVID and, just wasn't, you quite ready, but finally in the 2023, 2024 year, I said, yes, with my whole being, my whole spirit to this opportunity and, you I think at heart, I really enjoy teaching and being in an academic environment and bringing to the classroom my own experiences as a journalist. And then also being able to introduce my class to other journalists, other thinkers, writers, authors who are also could shed light on these of again, media treats race and how that shapes how. Look um at the world so yeah it was a dream come true basically they

0:10:24 Lydia: And how was the the feedback from the students from when you taught it?

0:10:29 Karen: Loved it I had students from all over the world from gosh u .s to india uh japan um was so amazing about my first cohort, shout out to you guys if you're listening. Was What amazing about it, I had a few journalists, but most of them just really, given everything that was going on in the news in the US particularly, and how much race plays into so much of our society, whether one wants to see it or not. My class, which was over -enrolled, by the way, there's a waiting list to get in. Class really, they they felt like they were to freely speak about things that they couldn't in other courses in international affairs schools. I guess I knew that, right? Because I was them once. And so it was great. I was a very, it was first time I'm like me, a whole professor? What? Wow. Okay. Papers, having office hours, you seeing know, how throughout the course. Can see it in people's faces, like their eyes brightening up when they're making connections and then making connections to the material back to their own lives or what they're seeing in their own communities or in their countries, right.

0:11:45 Karen: And sharing that with each other. Like that's the sort of thing I love. And yeah, the reviews, feedback's great. We even, they even gave me cards as a thank you and a, and group pictures and I still keep in touch with them. Um, I loved it again. Shout out to y'all. Y'all are the best class

0:11:57 Lydia: That's great. So you were anticipating, you you would offer the course again, right? That it was something to be planned for the following year. Obviously that hasn't happened. Was wondering if you could talk a little bit about what that experience was like.

0:12:18 Karen: Again, I was an and, um, and again, you know, because, um. Maintained had a strong relationship with Columbia actually ever since I graduated. So, I, to teach this, pursued to teach, this people asking me for years, when are you coming? When are you're coming to So of course, as this summer after graduation rolled around and I wasn't hearing from the school, I was like, what's going on? Obviously things are planned pretty far in advance. So I needed to know, you know what was happening. And then, you course was not going to be renewed, which was, yeah, it was devastating.

0:12:59 Karen: And didn't really settle in for me. It was more so for the students, I guess. That not just at Columbia, there are so few non -white, non -male professors, knowing that in the field of international relations schools, I mean, this is just not a course that is taught. It sucked. Yeah. And I, you know, tried to get clarity, you how to post about this because students were upset and so even to an extent to this day I still don't exactly know why that decision was made um it was yeah some of the topics in my course were controversial. I did address what was happening in Israel and did my best to create a very open channel of dialogue, one of the only professors to do so, frankly. Ways, maybe there's something in the back of my head, given the attacks on CRT, DEI, all of that. Maybe there's not shots. Again, this all happened last summer. This all happened before Trump came into office. But I think that it just sort of was a prelude of what was obviously to come, right? I just really saw it as part and parcel of, in general, a retreat from diversity promises that a lot of institutions made. Particularly the murder of George Floyd in 2020. So, while I was teaching, I was already seeing the, do I put it? Columbia's administration specifically, there were signs of capitulation on of thoughts on campus already, right?

0:14:57 Thomas: How's this time out with those uh hearings and stuff where they were grilling um and all that of universities hmm

0:15:03 Karen: At the exact time. I was like, I picked the perfect time to come back. I mean, I was teaching during the protests, during the encampments, during encampments, the protests, I went out to the encampment myself. Knew, you know, some students who were involved. I had students who are docs to students who caught up in what was becoming a really tense, scary, chilling environment on that campus. To teach and to learn in. Still, it was an amazing class. And it just was really, well, perhaps divinely aligned that speaking about race identity in the media coinciding with what was actually happening in real time, even at Columbia. Are some lectures where I just was like, guys, we don't even need to do the reading. Let's just turn on the TV and see what they're saying about us right now. Right. Is being said about the environment on campus and how it's being, you know, depending on who you are, where you sit. You know, it's a it's dependent on how you see the world and a lot of what is portrayed as the truth has to do with power. And here we were sitting in the middle of this storm as students, you know, and teachers at Columbia. And yet the outside world was painting a picture that was so radically different than the reality.

0:16:55 Karen: Felt we were powerless to combat that because there was already a narrative that was being formed regardless of what the truth was. So it was time. I'm sure this is something that will sit with my students for a long time. It's definitely going to sit with me. For a long time as time instructing. I don't And then to hear that that wasn't going to be happening was crushing, for sure.

0:17:22 Thomas: You You know, on this show, we're kind of all about that, you in how specifically often college campuses are being portrayed versus what they are actually like. But, you Know, we are not actually there. Can you give us any examples of like coverage saw or ways that the campus was talked about or the events were talked about that was just total distortions from reality?

0:17:40 Karen: Yeah, I mean, I think first couple of things. Columbia is known as the activist Ivy, right? Actually brands and markets itself as such because very famously during the civil rights movements, during the anti -apartheid movements, students had barricaded themselves in some of the very same buildings that students last year during the protested. And again, I was a graduate student there. Some members of my family are actually alums there. It's also situated in New York City where there are protests all the time.

0:18:18 Karen: There's always something going on that someone doesn't like. And I remember going to school at SIPA as a graduate And, you know, just seeing crowds outside the gates and flags and megaphones. And I'd be like, who's that? And someone would be like. You know, it's just some like dictator from another country who's here. You

0:18:40 Thomas: Some event you should know about, but you're embarrassed that you don't is usually for me what it would be.

0:18:45 Karen: Yeah, and it's just sort of like, and, you know, under the previous Columbia administration, President Lee Bollinger, who is a respected First Amendment scholar, right? So free speech, right. So to come back to Columbia and come to this atmosphere of not only fear, but yeah, So I I went to the encampments the first day they were put up. And for anyone who's not at Columbia, where the encamps were set up, there's like a quad, there is a green. And at the time it was near finals. It's not uncommon to just see students like just hanging out there, putting up tents. Protests on those lawns are not new. And when I went to see the encampments when they first got started, it was like, okay, there's a few tents and okay. A couple of kids with some tambourines, but mostly just, mostly just chilling. They were like, they were like walking around with megaphones, like a couple of tambourine, a couple drums. That was it. And I just sat with like one of my friends on the, on the steps and I was just like, Hmm, there they go. Then we just went back to the cafe and I went back

0:19:55 Karen: Not think that that was going to happen was that those encampments, just a few hours, few, you know, maybe 24 or 48 hours would get forcibly dismantled by campus police, that we would get an email saying that the university administration was going clear them out. I was shocked. And that's when I knew, okay, is a school that's willing to use force, right? Now, depending on where you sit or whatever people heard outside of Columbia's gates or outside of New York, it was painted that those kids with the tambourines were violent agitators, were Jihadis were, at worst, kids who had no idea about what was going on in the Middle East were just ignorant and had nothing else to do, spoiled rich kids who have time on their hands to join whatever latest trendy thing was happening. That was a distortion. It was not just a distortion, but to obviously delegitimize and to not properly engage with what the students were asking for, which was very specific, actually.

0:21:11 Karen: It specifically for the university to divest from what they saw as a country enabling violence and in their view, genocide, right? Very specific. But no, if you hear people from outside, they're like, but the kids don't even know what they want. We don't know what we want. Can't they tell us what they I'm like, their demands are very clear. So that's just like, they

0:21:30 Thomas: They usually make lists and stuff of that. Lists. Yeah, I'm

0:21:36 Karen: In messaging. And wasn't just students, it was graduate students, people who are from New York who are used to organizing and activating against injustice, right? Part of Columbia, at least, is sitting in Harlem, where people have been used to protest in Columbia for a long time. And so those are just some of the examples that, course, there were different opinions. The chants were wrong or violent or anti -Semitic. Others who are like, wow, the NYPD is literally forcibly removing us from that is violence. So this concept of what violence and safety actually are, we're contested. Violence? Is... militarizing your campus with the who have weapons, is that violence? Is that sort of it, right? Barring journalists, even your own student journalists, from reporting on what's happening to their own classmates, is violence, right.

0:22:40 Thomas: Old enough to remember when it was the right saying that the kids on the colleges were declaring that words were violence and that that was the whole threat to speech. And now it's come all the way around where it's like, well, no, saying that Israel's committing that's now violence. It's like wait a minute, weren't you on the other side of that five minutes ago?

0:22:57 Karen: Funny how that works, right, and funny how language, all of a sudden violence is necessary for safety. Seeing the language shifts that this is for security purposes when not just students, but faculty, particularly faculty of color, were protesting at the time by saying we are not going to step foot on campus until it is demilitarized. This is the NYPD is not known for handling their issues with, you and daisies and rainbows. This is a police force that has so often been at the center of brutality.

0:23:41 Karen: So it was just really. Chilling, sad, scary. I saw for myself as the NYPD advanced upon us and protesters like a freaking military force. That was one of the first times in my career as a journalist where I was like, wow, this could get really bad. This was my own, my this place where I used to call home, where I Yeah, I'd say they were peaceful. Think, not just the cancellation, but I also had to think about, wow, what an environment that Columbia has enabled for learning that's become so restrictive and unsafe and fearful, I guess. I wasn't prepared for that. There was anything that was... kind of incredible about the way students or people were mobilizing, which, you know, obviously was a threat to power, but these folks were moving in incredibly sophisticated ways. So I'll give an example. In the encampments before they were dismantled, the students had set up a completely self -sustaining ecosystem. Little city within the university. They had set up libraries. They First aid shelters, they had set up, what else? There was, I remember there was a spiritual wellness center, a little tent for like, basically a tent for mental health support.

0:25:19 Karen: Had systems of moving as a collective. I remember I was there when there was supposed to be media coming because Speaker Mike Johnson was about to come and, you what was happening at the university city and they had codes ready for basically determining like okay everyone who is yeah kind of yeah

0:25:39 Thomas: It's a code mayonnaise, everyone. It's code white bread. We got to write white bread over here.

0:25:43 Karen: But it was like it was to protect yeah it was so they said you know anyone who doesn't want to be shown on the media or be identified. Like we're pre -warning you, cover up or kind of, like I said, how to color code a system depending on how the students were willing to risk. So students who are willing to be identified, who are being willing to go on record, they basically had a certain color and said, yep, I'm willing to wrist that. Others who didn't, had particular colors. And I was like, whoa, this is pretty high level. And then, yeah, very impressive.

0:26:20 Thomas: It's impressive. It's that George Soros money, you know. That guy doesn't fuck around.

0:26:26 Karen: Very impressive. You know, again, having students with folks on the outside who were bringing in food constantly, because again, they were sitting out from... classes, they were wanting to stay on the lawn until their demands were met. So basically, people were making it so that they could sustain that, right, by offering the tents, offering not just that, but the education. So they brought professors and speakers in the middle of the encampments who were still giving lectures outside.

0:26:58 Thomas: You ever think like maybe this is just how school should be. This sounds great.

0:27:02 Karen: Was kind of, honestly, it was like this utopia.

0:27:05 Thomas: Getting some sun. Yeah.

0:27:07 Karen: I again, the organizers were from all faiths. I think they previously had had, because it was around this time of the year, actually, so they had a Passover Seder in the encampments. Would protect Muslim students when they were praying in the

0:27:24 Thomas: Why did they need protection? That sounds weird. Why? Protect from what?

0:27:27 Karen: I wonder why, right? But still, it was like, this is what humanity could be. Whoa, okay. And see professors who, again, Columbia is a school work, right, a school is one of the oldest, most famous teachers college. Is a conflict is, what atrocity prevention is, using the skills, using your organizing to try to put pressure on institutions to stop perpetrating oppression. This is what Columbia taught us. So to me, they were just doing on the street what we were taught, in my opinion. And then to see those sort Again, this is within the quads, what was happening outside of the university. Of course, there were groups from across the city chanting. There were a lot of chants that I thought, yeah, I thought were a bit disturbing. I would not have done that. But ultimately, as far as actual physical violence from encampments, absolutely not. Anything, they were trying to make it as safe as possible. That didn't stop the university from not only clearing them, but from punishing the students, withdrawing diplomas, kicking students out of housing and health care, literally clearing the encampments and throwing students' belongings in the trash. Horrified.

0:29:02 Thomas: Well, forgetting the exact chronology, but was this when they were kind of wanting to go too hard? They're wanting to get really hard the other way because they're afraid of what happened to the other universities or something like that.

0:29:13 Karen: Right. I mean, that was the thought. I was a bit bold by they started their encampments the day that President Manoush Shafiq was testifying before Congress. So I was like, oh. Wow, y 'all don't play around. Okay. But again, it So yeah, it, it has this sense that like, okay, the university felt it needed to, have a show of force, I suppose. But I would argue, and I think many faculty would agree with me. It was the decision to use the NYPD to clear those encampments, not know, I don't think it was even 48 hours from when they set up that I think really set things into. A spiral sort of trajectory, which a year later, Columbia still hasn't really recovered from.

0:29:59 Lydia: And I mean, the administration, Trump administration has gone so far to in and specifically attack and deport someone who was heavily involved in that, Mahmoud Khalil, and um yeah yeah

0:30:13 Karen: Shocking. I never, I never would have expected. And I still, I'm conflicted because I still have a lot of love for like and its ideals, I suppose. And again, I wouldn't be where I am today if it wasn't for that education and that experience. And to an extent, I by what I saw on campus last year. I'll So always carry that with me. But it also makes me really sad. Of course, as an alum of any institution, part is you want to be proud of your school. And there's not much to feel. Proud of right now. I hope Columbia can turn it around. Are so many great scholars, so many obviously amazing students, and there are faculty that are trying to stand for academic freedom. Of course, faculty is different than administration, and this administration seems to be... Not really making any friends on either side, right? You're making everybody mad, man. Everyone.

0:31:15 Thomas: It's just such You give the fascists an inch, they're never happy, but then the anti -fascists obviously are pissed. You're never going to end up making that work. I don't know why they're trying. It's silly.

0:31:28 Karen: And then in between all that, you know, then you have, of course, you international students, international -Americans are terrified to be here right now. Situation with deporting or at the very least not the appearance of protecting who are non -Americans, I don't mean, think a lot of people really take into account, you know, those who are kind of outside of these spaces, that foreign students account for a significant portion of tuition income for these schools, and particularly, obviously, for the International Affairs School. Foreign students often pay... tuition, which ends up, you know, subsidizing a lot of Americans, frankly. And so I can imagine for Columbia specifically, Columbia School of International and Public Affairs, the prospect of a Trump, administration not having, basically as a dragnet to try to carry out their anti -immigration agenda.

0:32:33 Karen: But giving the appearance of, if not outright facilitating, obviously, but at least not protecting the free speech. Of its own students, particularly its own international students, is just a PR death blow and going to be a blow to the business, right? Existential. And met, you know, not necessarily from SIPA, but in the last few weeks, international students at graduate levels who are saying they don't even want to be in the US anymore. And scared to even have their families come to their graduations that they've worked so hard to get towards. Because,

0:32:52 Lydia: Mm

0:33:09 Thomas: Wow, I didn't think about that.

0:33:11 Karen: Speaking to some who just said, I'm scraped in way to get to this point, to come to these elite schools. And my parents have been so proud, but I don't want to risk them. Trying to get through the borders right now. And they just said they told their parents to stay home in their home country. And I'm just like, my God, my to also think that these are going to be students who might not have, especially during the COVID years, might not Right?

0:33:50 Karen: So it's just a robbery of key moments in people's lives.

0:33:49 Lydia: Oh yeah just legitimately stolen from them yeah

0:33:50 Thomas: Oh,

0:33:57 Karen: Correct. People don't forget that.

0:34:01 Lydia: What was really, really striking to me, though, in reading about Columbia canceling your course is I think a lot of people when when they're faced with capitulation, right, it's like you just kind of have to accept it. And you didn't. And I want to hear about that because I find it so inspiring and something that like we all can kind of take in our own little neck of the woods, so to speak.

0:34:26 Karen: Guess, you know, like I mentioned earlier, the actually happened during the summer. And I wrestled with a different sort of capitulation. That I angry. I was in the dark as to why this happened. Wasn't sure if it was because of my political views or not. Was told to keep quiet, basically. Yeah, I mean, just people in general, right? Like, you others were worried that I can't you know they told me Karen like well still want to get an academic job at some point right so maybe you be strategic yeah exactly or or of told well a lot of other people are getting their courses canceled like budgets change um the same time, I just was like, but I met all the requirements. Guys tried to get me here for so long. And still wasn't getting a solid answer as to as to why. So I kept quiet because I was scared. Right. Didn't want to feel like publicly like becoming. A victim, I guess. Yeah, I sat on it for a bit. Of course, I had my day job at the Washington Post. So it's not like I was losing, you amount of income. I could still feed myself. So I could, you

0:35:08 Thomas: Don't be a troublemaker.

0:36:03 Karen: These demands and targeted Columbia even more directly than last year. And I suppose for me, seeing that happen and seeing Columbia capitulate so hard. If last year wasn't enough. Like, I guess that's what it was. It's like, y 'all brought the sledgehammer on students last year, set a really chilling precedent for how not only campus protests should be dealt with, but I think a precedent for protest in general should be handled, which is with overwhelming force. And that wasn't enough. And that was happening. And then of course, Trump's attacks on, like overt attacks on diversity and education, literally purging Black people and history from government and threatening. Only universities, but private institutions, right? And I think a lot of us weren't really prepared for the force of what I would call and have called this segregationist impulse. And so to see Columbia not only to, you know, one -up itself in its brutality. But then I think for me, what triggered me was placing the departments of Middle Eastern studies, African studies, and South Asian studies under what a special supervision, which was like, what sort of colonial bullshit is this, right? Just a reminder that even the course that I was teaching on race, media, and international affairs, even if I had stayed, was then what going to be, you thrown under the bus anyway, right, that I would, would my class, if I was to teach again, would

0:37:59 Karen: Kind of what made me think that, the knees so far. It's breaking. Back out of all that, again, being here in D.C. and watching this overtly racist regime, frankly, and I was feeling powerless. And seeing my friends losing their jobs. Just worried about the state of this country I've just for months I was like what can I do like yeah I'm a journalist I mean I sometimes I feel like I'm typing into the void sometimes and I really was just like I I know how to teach and I just made me happy. And of course, you know, what's happening now, I feel like I'm constantly on social media and Washington Post being like, there's component to this or just constantly reminding people of history. And I'm like, well, I can teach this at a classroom level. So I really just put on blue sky. This was like a week ago. Wow. Guys, if. If I taught this race and media and international affairs course, like a certain version of my Columbia course, would you take it? And I was just, I don't know. I wasn't even really thinking. I think I'd just seen many people deciding to pivot like after losing their jobs. And of course I still have my job, but I'd, I'd been thinking about what I could do that could serve, I

0:39:23 Karen: Guess. So I put that out there and within like minutes, I had like a thousand likes and maybe, you a hundred people would be like, I would sign up immediately. And, I was like, oh, oh wow. Okay. And honestly, you guys, like, keep taking things a step further. So I put that out there and then I was like, ah, okay, this is interesting. Let me do a Google form and let me like, let me collect some data right now. And I just did a Google form of, you know, what would, you we could build something that could actually help other students or contribute to like defense funds.

0:39:33 Thomas: Did you check like does anyone have a spare university in their backyard we could use? No, that didn't work, yeah.

0:40:17 Karen: I was overwhelmed by, like within, I don't know, a day that I'd put up that Google form, I got a thousand responses. Like started spreading beyond blue sky to other parts of social media. And maybe by, I two days I had like 3000. responses of people saying yes yes please yes and one of my friends was like Karen what are you doing just do the thing like how much more how much like interest do you need I think for me as a journalist we get so used to the dopamine hits of likes and yeses that I already had enough data to show obviously there's interest that people would do this not I was saying, look, this is a Columbia level course. And I just don't believe in this time. I are hungry for knowledge. To People learn about race, actually. Second you start to ban something is precisely what makes people want it even more, a bit of a Streisand effect. And yes, of course, people are pissed off at Columbia and for good reason. So I guess I was just like, wow, screw it. Let's go. Let's set up an actual, um, Cause I've already got the syllabus.

0:41:41 Karen: That I've this wasn't something of value, right? And it just didn't make sense that, you know, I was almost thinking of having something that's sitting in your closet collecting dust, right. Like, why not just offer it again? I've got this, right, and so, yeah, so that was Monday that I put out the interest forms. By Friday, my friend was kicking me in the butt to be like, Stop screwing around and open it up. I sent out the email to open enrollment Friday night. Sitting here on Monday. As of right before this conversation, I have had more than 500 people paying students. To cap the enrollment. Not just that, but we're going to be able to support a lot of scholarships for people who say they want to take the class. So holy shit.

0:42:30 Lydia: That's great.

0:42:35 Karen: I'm like, wait, did I just become a dean of

0:42:35 Thomas: That's crazy yeah give yourself tenure quick if

0:42:41 Karen: My know, but not just I think for me, it's just I don't know, maybe it'll hit me like and I'll start falling apart and crying. At this point, it's not even about Columbia anymore. It's about like like we need community and not just community, but joy. Like, like I said, I've been feeling really down. I've over the last week just seeing people's just not enthusiasm but like offering to volunteers like hey I know online ed tech like I can volunteer some libraries in dc are like hey if you need a space we got you um folks who are just like hey you need an operations manager like willing to donate for free stuff like that and I'm like y'all y'all whoa

0:43:30 Thomas: You need someone to not study but come in and make some good jokes during the class that's all I really could offer

0:43:37 Karen: I'm thinking of some of those like TikTok videos of like, I definitely want to be the teacher to be like, all right, class one, two, three, all eyes on me. Like, you Like all right. Heads up, seven up. Okay. In that, in that case, I'm dating myself as a geriatric millennial, but like, yeah.

0:43:45 Lydia: Quiet coyote. Yes. Us too.

0:43:56 Karen: And I, I seen some responses that are like, a class in 25 years, but I'm going to sign up for this. I And think, I mean, I think a lot of things are happening. But I think that people are really desperate, again, for community. Want to learn. Stuff. When I teach this stuff, when I learned this stuff it changed how I saw the world for good. It changed how I saw media. It made me be able to like examine media a lot differently and that's what I've got. I want to share that and I want people to be able share that with their people and then they share that their people. And that's how it works. So I just think we're in a moment where we are needing to really go back to the fundamentals of consciousness raising. And if this is, you know, what I can do to help, I hope this may be, and also just, I guess it's a bit of a jailbreak of the higher education system, honestly, because I just was like, why do I need to go through Columbia or a bunch of committees, a bunch crippling lifelong debt? As an adjunct, do you need to break your back for pennies while the universities exploit your labor?

0:45:20 Karen: I guess for me, I'm like, this bypasses all of that. And at the model that I have now. Makes it so that it is not only accessible, but it's self -sustaining. Like I should be able to not fund scholarships for this first like cohort, but also be able pay guest lecturers like, you know, something for their time. Universities, frankly, exploit labor. You a really, not only fun and enjoyable and not only, you know, sticking it to the man and resistance, but I'm like, this is a really interesting experiment in what schools and community learning really was supposed to be about in the first place. Not basically funds that happen to have an education department.

0:46:14 Lydia: Man.

0:46:14 Karen: Right. So yeah, I'm really excited. I'm

0:46:17 Thomas: So cool when does it start when does it begin when's the first session yeah

0:46:19 Karen: When to begin? First sessions, I'm going to begin after July 4th, after the holiday. It's going to run for six weeks. So I will be teaching, again, it is race, media, and international affairs. And it's looking at basically reframing how we're seeing the... construction of how we think about race in the modern times and how it actually does have parallels to how mass media, particularly in America, I'm focusing mostly on the West writ large, but particularly how in America how of race and the other have been portrayed in the media and also helped fuel the mass media's And I would say race, but I would actually say racism and the fear of the other helped to sell colonial papers in the U.S. back in the 1700s. Right.

0:47:15 Karen: So it's sort of like, again, I would tell my students, you know, when they learn this history, something I keep saying is, gosh, guys, does this sound familiar? Does this sound similar to the racist clickbait that we have today?

0:47:26 Thomas: Well wasn't don't they say is it Desert Storm that kind of made CNN or something like that like that's it's wow what a pattern that I imagine is repeated a lot of times

0:47:36 Karen: Yeah. So it's just to be able to give people the tools when they when they probably themselves have noticed patterns in media coverage about about Middle East or about Africa or. About how, even as we remember COVID being racialized or the Ebola panic being definitely seen as an African ooga booga virus. These things are, people might see, they're like, hmm, this doesn't seem right. But there's these patterns throughout history in there's a reason why the media is where it is with regards to. Race, particularly in the West, and I'm focusing on the West. I also focus on other parts of the world, had a unit on France, of course, like I said, had an unit on global pandemics, race in the media. So it's really like, it's not this high level, you know, I'm not discussing like super complicated theory or anything. It really is history and like current affairs. And to really just be, again, explicit about how race, as we're seeing in this country right now, has been an animating force for so much of our politics, relations, how we see religion, how to see each other and everything. It's not one of those things where, you know, I'm sure the right is like, I've seen the comments are like, great, she's gonna teach them how to hate white people. And it's

0:49:05 Karen: How we see each other and the relations between groups expanding to the relations, between nations themselves, right? And again, everything from the founding of the League of Nations in 1919 to today, how the Security Council at the UN is set up, where certain countries have never been able to. A part of the security council right so anyway that's like a

0:49:34 Thomas: I was gonna say a hell of a sales job for session two, I guess, because we can't join session one.

0:49:37 Karen: That's that's what we do and then now we look at what's happening in the media today and unfortunately there's way too much content in today's media in terms of race and media and international affairs, even with the China standoffs and trade wars. There's so, so much to be said in America's suspicion of China. Whether it's domestically or internationally, taking away from America, specifically white America's dominance. So here we are again. My brief sales pitch, that's what we're doing. And that's where we're going to be learning. And I will give people the tools to really put what's happening today into some context so that when they get into discussions about current events with their friends, family, and loved ones, they've got a little bit more historical context to talk about.

0:50:31 Lydia: And also like just the skills to kind of start like poking holes in things and yeah. And asking those questions when things are being presented to you. Yeah.

0:50:36 Karen: Poking holes in things. Asking questions. Correct. Sending letters to the editors when they get stuff wrong and just really being able to read what you're seeing in the media with a much more. Critical eye, which is what we need to be doing. And misinformation is spreading, as people are finding themselves, it's not just misinformed, but frankly, confused about hoping that this class will help to say. We got here wasn't an accident. Are just living out patterns that have been baked in to how we see the world, but we can choose differently, right? Hopefully, that's what education is, gives people the ability to expand their imaginations, to imagine a different, more equitable, more sort of human way. To look at how people are being represented, you each other. Yeah, stories matter. Stories

0:51:41 Thomas: We're running running out of time, but this was so much fun. This was so inspiring. It's really great to hear that story come, I guess, full circle. I don't know if you would even say, says, yeah, he kind of went to in a different circle.

0:51:51 Lydia: You've taken control of it. Yeah yeah.

0:51:54 Thomas: Yeah. But yeah, is there anything else that we missed? Anything else you want to tell folks before we sign off?

0:51:55 Karen: I guess so. I said, the course. Sold out in 48 hours over the weekend. There is a wait list for a fall offering. So if anyone is interested, there is a waitlist up on my sub stack and on my socials. And for I guess for those, who are thinking about. To do something, if you have the skills to teach or to share, I hope everyone just finds a way to kind of be a part of community and find ways they can help others in this moment right now. Cause we're in a very difficult moment right yourself in your own voice. And for me, I guess this was just all a part of saying, you know what? I have something to offer this world and I'm going to do it. And I don't need anybody's permission to offer what I have to the world. And they can cancel us, but we're going to community anyway.

0:53:01 Karen: We move is what I've been saying. Moving like water.

0:53:00 Lydia: Yeah it's the encampments at Columbia, right? The professor showed up there to teach them anyway. You don't need a classroom. Yeah.

0:53:11 Karen: We're going to teach anyway. We're going to move anyway. It's all good.

0:53:15 Lydia: Love it.

0:53:16 Thomas: Great. Thanks so much for doing this. Where should our listeners go to find more about all of this stuff? I mean, you mentioned your blue sky, anything else you wanna throw out there?

0:53:24 Karen: Yeah, so you can find me on Substack at the golden hour and there is a resistance summer school section and you can basically find my journey about creating this initiative. Again, this has only come together in a week. So I'm a little, my nervous system has not quite caught up to my new summer job quite yet. But of course, you can find me on social media. I'm at Karen Atiyah across all platforms.

0:53:52 Lydia: Great.

0:53:53 Karen: And yeah, just looking forward to connecting with more people this summer.

0:53:59 Lydia: Wish we were some of them, but we'll hop on that wait list for sure.

0:54:04 Thomas: Lydia's a teacher's pet. It's...

0:54:04 Karen: Please.

0:54:07 Lydia: I'm going to sit in front of class. Thank you.

0:54:08 Karen: Gold star, gold star.

0:54:35 Thomas: Can't help you. My phone last made a sound in 2010. And since then, I had it put down.

0:54:42 Karen: It was one and done, huh?

0:54:44 Thomas: Oh.

0:54:44 Karen: No tolerance.

0:54:45 Thomas: I just can't. I can't handle the sound. I've had it on silent for 15 years. I Can't Handle It.

0:54:49 Karen: Man, I'm jealous.

0:54:51 Thomas: Yeah, I don't know.

0:54:51 Karen: Your nervous system must be so pristine.

0:54:54 Thomas: No, no, definitely not.

0:54:58 Karen: My dad just called. I just accidentally clicked. That was him.

0:55:01 Thomas: That's podcast first.

0:55:04 Karen: I'm sorry, guys.

0:55:05 Thomas: Do we have to list your dad on the credits now?

0:55:08 Karen: No, no. I think that's what it was. It was, yeah, daddy. Sorry. Sorry, dad. I'll call you back.