DOD197: Loyalty Testers - Are the Monoggos ok?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad. That's my thing. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can. Complete and honor dependent. I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired.

0:00:22 Clip: Telling is the only part of being a father that I enjoy.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that... I thought

0:00:30 Thomas: Thank God. Oh thank God he's here. Eli, Jesus fucking Christ. Oh thank God, he's here. I couldn't, Tom, thank you, buddy. I couldn't do this again. We couldn't.

0:00:40 Tom: Things went well while I was gone. I appreciated that episode. What I'm coming to realize, actually, is that you guys sometimes may be a little better off without me. Maybe I should be here a little less.

0:00:53 Thomas: You're the glue. You're the the glue. I know that.

0:00:56 Eli: Can you? I have that voice in my head too, Tom. You're not supposed to listen to it.

0:01:01 Tom: You know what I'd like to be less of? The glue. Can I be less the glue? You know? Like, just be a slightly disposable?

0:01:08 Thomas: Well, Tom, you used to to be me a real workhorse and then they took you to the glue factory.

0:01:11 Tom: I mean, I, yeah, yeah. Another,

0:01:11 Eli: That's right. The first half of Animal Farm and you were like, well, this Boxer fella, he's the one fucking getting things going. No, I don't think I need to read the rest of this, Mrs. McGullicuddy. I get it. Call me Boxer from now on.

0:01:28 Tom: It. Jesus Christ. To make sure that I took another chill, relaxing day and back, relax, and slack off. But I'm back, gentlemen. I am back.

0:01:37 Thomas: The show that has tom did I let you finish the show that has time thank god I don't know oh

0:01:40 Tom: Show that ass top. I didn't write anything for the intro anyway. I was going to wing it, and you guys saved me. So, you know, there we go.

0:01:42 Thomas: Thank god ah yeah

0:01:44 Eli: He was on vacation for the intro, too. It's nice. You got a little extra vacation in there.

0:01:47 Thomas: A little extra it's hit the snooze button on the vacation

0:01:51 Eli: That's right. He was actually asleep during the intro.

0:01:52 Tom: Know,

0:01:54 Thomas: He does he micro sleep every commercial break if anybody uh wasn't aware.

0:01:59 Tom: I didn't set my zapping watch. So I slept for a whole week. It's a, it's a problem. It just, yeah, I've

0:02:04 Thomas: It ran out of battery and the backup battery and the whole house battery.

0:02:08 Tom: Got solar panels. I'm just hooked directly to the solar panels now. So yeah.

0:02:12 Eli: That's good.

0:02:12 Tom: When the, when the sun hits them in the morning, you know?

0:02:12 Eli: That's smart. Rise with the sun. Yes. It's like your very own rooster.

0:02:17 Tom: That's some Huberman shit, right?

0:02:18 Eli: That is

0:02:19 Tom: Like you got to wake up and go stare at the sun in order to like be a person or whatever his fucking advice is.

0:02:22 Eli: The pseudoscience of what you just said just gained us 100 ,000 listeners. I didn't even know if you knew that. But just the bad idea of things to do to your body actually just put us to number seven on iTunes.

0:02:33 Thomas: Are we obligated to tell people not to do vaccines or something though? I think.

0:02:36 Tom: But you do have to make sure to face your ice bath east. That's important. Always have your ice path facing east.

0:02:37 Eli: Don't do vaccines. Or do. Yes, that's so important. And hold your breath and do it by yourself. That we need to confront, which that the pseudoscience and the bullshit seems to just be killing douche nozzles, right? When we started out reporting on Atheist News, and Tom, back me up here because you've been in this fucking game, right, it was like, I'm putting bleach up my kid's ass. And we were like, that shit's got to stop.

0:03:03 Tom: Been doing a long time, man. Yep.

0:03:09 Eli: Your kid does not deserve bleach up the ass. But if you're like, I'm going to get in an ice bath and go into shock and drown, that sounds like a cash money way to get rid of people who are going to vote third party next election. You know what I'm saying? I feel like maybe we need to consider, and let me say this for the first time on air, though I say it off air a lot, gets deleted a lot. We need to

0:03:38 Thomas: We're sorry. Technical. Yeah I've genuinely gotten to the point where I'm like it not even like oh oh, we should do X, Eli. It's just reality. We've just gotten, we can't fix it. We can't make people take their fucking vaccines. So it's less like, oh, We should just let those people get measles and more just those people are getting measles. There's not even a, it's not Even our fault. Like there's nothing, you know? So I'm trying, you don't have to feel so bad. You and a bunch of other people that don't take vaccines.

0:04:03 Tom: I, for one, welcome the measles. Like, I'm... we go.

0:04:08 Eli: Sweating it. Stop worrying about it. Your It worry has not solved anything. But guys, you know, the only thing worse than Tom's existence, which I think we can all agree, is them trying to wake him up out of the vanilla sky machine. But they're all just sort of gathered around office.

0:04:21 Tom: I wake

0:04:23 Thomas: Tom, scream tech support. Scream tech support, it might work.

0:04:27 Tom: Up in the Matrix and just, like, turn over. Just like, it's fine. This all looks fine.

0:04:32 Eli: Get out and they're like, hey, man, we've been trying to get you out for like a while.

0:04:37 Thomas: Like hey man we need to build another matrix just to power your shock watch like this is not sustainable

0:04:43 Eli: That paper covered in X's on the walls? That was the pool three months ago about when you would wake up. We don't even talk about it anymore. We all lost, but most of all you.

0:04:57 Tom: Just put me back in the pink slime. I like the pink

0:05:00 Eli: Frogs, you said, oh, well, scuba -duba -doo and just got in your car.

0:05:08 Tom: I have a sleep disorder. I think I've mentioned on the show before I've got a sleep. Yeah, I know. So, I've this thing called REM behavior disorder. So I, I sometimes will have incomplete sleep paralysis when I'm dreaming. Right. So it's not too bad. It's not dangerous at this point. It could get there, but it's Not. So that means I talk in my sleep a lot more than regular people do. And I evidently say like insane shit all the time. And like, I'm just mad all the Time in my dreams and Haley writes it down. So there's actually like an ongoing list that is really fucking funny. Yeah.

0:05:11 Eli: Braggy, whiny. Oh, hell yeah.

0:05:35 Thomas: Podcast idea new podcast idea

0:05:38 Eli: Patreon only. Okay, here's what we do. We hire a Jungian dream expert. And then for a Patreon bonus, Tom reads all the things he's muttered in the only place he feels safe and free.

0:05:52 Eli: Unconsciousness. But hey, do you like our podcast? Give us your money. patreon.com forward slash dear old dads. I could tell you you're going to get a commercial free version of every single show. I can tell you about the bonus episodes, but right now, right now you're just giving me that cash. Give me that dosh because you love me. patreon.com forward slash. Dear old dads rip Tom Psyche into the natural world. Rip into it. If

0:05:57 Thomas: Tom needs it just listen to it okay

0:06:21 Tom: All right. So we got to talk about this fucking bonkers shit that Thomas Smith posted into our company Slack. This is a USA Today article. So this is the.

0:06:32 Eli: It isn't my own ideas taking one degree to the right of the thing I've expressed.

0:06:34 Tom: This is fucking

0:06:38 Thomas: It's okay. Look, we're all trying to find the guy who did this.

0:06:39 Tom: Nuts. This is great. Paid to flirt with other people's partners. Meet the loyalty testers. If you don't know what this is, it's exactly what it sounded like. Well, this is called the most toxic shit I ever heard. I'm going to read just the first couple of paragraphs because that's all you'll need to get the flavor here. She thought she was finally in a good relationship. Or was she? The 29 -year -old hairstylist in New York City had been cheated on before, an experience that had left her devastated and heartbroken. She knew her new boyfriend was different, but still, she couldn't help wonder. Would he betray her just as her ex did? She says she needed peace of mind. She needed a loyalty test. So -called loyalty tests have blown up on social media, where people offer to test each other's significant others by flirting with them, sometimes over social media. Sometimes in person. If the person flirts back or worse, makes plans to meet up, they fail the test and their partner is left to decide how to proceed.

0:06:51 Thomas: It's called monogamy. I'm so sorry. This is just for an audience of literally, I think, Eli's mom. But no, Tom, you're an English guy. Right away, the that we've been ruined, that our society is ruined. She thought she was finally in a good relationship or was she that's not that's not right you mixed you changed who's telling the story like yeah you'd say either she was in a great relationship or was she or you'd Say she thought She was in A good relationship but She was you

0:07:53 Eli: Those two sentence fragments are not in fact related. Did she?

0:08:00 Tom: Or, but how was her? Or

0:08:18 Eli: To be fair, both diagram of the readers of USA Today and people who are interested in loyalty testers and their methods, the center of that diagram are people who talk and write exactly like those two sentence fragments put together. So I think it's actually a pretty good idea.

0:08:37 Tom: Was? USA Today is a newspaper I think nobody has purchased. It's a newspaper you exclusively get for free when you stay at a bad hotel. That's it. Like if you stayed at a shitty like Fairfield Inn or something, like it arrives at your door if you got the good room. So all right. So loyalty testing. See, this seems reasonable.

0:08:45 Eli: Like Time Magazine.

0:08:53 Thomas: Very healthy very uh so

0:08:55 Tom: This is a really healthy, really healthy thing to do.

0:08:57 Thomas: Tom how often do you do this

0:09:00 Tom: We do. We call it relationship mystery shopping.

0:08:59 Eli: Assume like once a month. Ooh,

0:09:03 Tom: That would

0:09:04 Thomas: You can't do it regularly because then it's expected you do have to you know it can't be regular yeah

0:09:09 Tom: Be true. That is

0:09:09 Eli: There are three tests a year, but you don't know which months they are. You know, one's in the holiday season.

0:09:14 Tom: Fucking insane. Well, Thomas, you posted this here, so feelings what's on this? Obviously, you're a pro tester.

0:09:22 Thomas: I just I just look for yeah pro loyalty test I just

0:09:26 Tom: Are signed up as a loyalty tester, Thomas? Are you out there doing a little flirt for cash?

0:09:32 Eli: Bono loyalty tester.

0:09:35 Tom: Pro bono loyalty tester I

0:09:31 Thomas: Oh

0:09:37 Eli: He's just out there doing God's work.

0:09:38 Tom: I think this is fucking insane toxic nightmarish bullshit but I would fucking do this for money like a hundred percent I would catfish the shit out of people for money if they wanted to be like I'd like to ruin my relationship

0:09:50 Thomas: It it'd be your least unpleasant thing you do in your life for money

0:09:54 Eli: That sounds better.

0:09:54 Tom: Hey, look, man, if we're going to live in a culture built by trolls for trolls, at point, can we just embrace it? Maybe we should just reach out and embrace the idea that literally nothing should exist outside of.

0:09:57 Thomas: Man

0:10:02 Eli: That's true. This is Tom pulling the coin out of the fish's mouth is what we're watching right now.

0:10:09 Tom: This is it, man. I'm done. It, Eli. I am accepting that this is the world as it is, and now I just want to fucking operate money on it. Give me the cash.

0:10:17 Thomas: Long is this thing because there's there's almost wish we could read the whole thing yeah because like there's some really interesting psychological things happening in this yeah

0:10:20 Tom: You want me to read it? We can read the whole thing. Read it. So TikTok users offer to run loyalty tests for followers. On YouTube, several loyalty test videos have gone viral, racking up millions of views. The trend has even spawned an industry with the company Loyalty Test, allowing people to make profiles and set their own rates for loyalty testing. I am signing the fuck up.

0:10:44 Eli: My God, I'm signing up for this right now

0:10:46 Thomas: Shopping picture you are a I guess a insecure in your hetero relationship is going to be mostly this like not all but like mostly this dynamic I'm sure and you go budget does mean like you didn't get a good enough loyalty you know like you got to go big dollars for yeah

0:10:59 Tom: You got like some unattractive yeah what what do you have to pay for like jason momoa to reach out right like like right

0:11:05 Thomas: The the girl equivalent yeah to test your male partner it's like I can imagine like wanting to save a buck but then being like yeah but what if what if that wasn't a good genug test you know You know, you actually have to pay more money to be more disappointed.

0:11:08 Tom: Allowing

0:11:15 Eli: Yeah, now you're paying even more because you got to hire the good way. Exactly.

0:11:20 Tom: After the 29 year old ari used that company to test her boyfriend he passed she was so impressed with the service that she became a tester she likes several this is great she like

0:11:30 Eli: What a monogamous thing of her to do that

0:11:32 Tom: This like several others we interviewed for this piece, asks that we withhold her full name as she uses her real social media accounts to bait potential cheaters and she doesn't want to tip off anyone she may encounter down the line or incur the wrath of scorned cheaters she's caught. Ari's main motivation for loyalty testing, she says, is to give people the same peace of mind that she craved.

0:11:40 Thomas: You'd have to. That she had with that one relationship she used to have back in the day. How are they doing?

0:11:55 Eli: She had one time, but probably doesn't have

0:11:58 Thomas: Yeah, how are they do it now?

0:11:58 Eli: Anymore because she flirts with other people professionally.

0:11:58 Tom: Oh, God. Felt like I could do this, she says, and I can help people out.

0:12:04 Thomas: Saint.

0:12:04 Eli: Tom corrected 100% of that person's grammar just now. Accidentally. He was like, I can't read. He's having a is pen blue moment. Tom, I'm going to request that you read it as it is written in the journalistic factorium USA Today. Right. Changing tenses.

0:12:26 Thomas: It's like 18 different tenses. I think we hit pluperfect.

0:12:30 Tom: She says it's been hard to see how frequently and how spectacularly so many people fail her tests the loyalty testers usa today spoke with say they have good intentions some know the pain of getting cheated on and want to spare others that kind of betrayal Amy Chan, a dating coach and the author of Breakup Boot Camp, The Science of Rewiring Your Heart, however, advises against loyalty tests. If you suspect your partner's dishonest, she says, doing something deceitful yourself will only make it harder to build trust.

0:13:00 Thomas: Ah, but what does she know?

0:13:01 Tom: I should someone who's worked with thousands of heartbroken individuals, I can tell you that these tests are essentially relationship sabotage disguised as peace of mind, Chan says. When you hire someone to test your partner's loyalty, you're already operating from a foundation of suspicion rather than trust. This approach doesn't build security. It erodes it. It introduces deception into the relationship and ironically makes you the one engaging in dishonest behavior while claiming to seek honesty. And I could only have you get caught.

0:13:31 Tom: If the thing where none of that makes any sense, though, right? I am the one who is going to loyalty test my spouse, I'm going to loyalty test Haley. I'm gonna get some hot dude to reach out and flirt with her. If she passes the test, I'M NEVER TELLING HER I DID THAT. Right? Okay. And if she doesn't pass the test then presumably you already have a problem. I actually don't see how any of that is a thing.

0:13:54 Thomas: So you, so I think what you're saying is you, you are locked into either. You're going to be dishonest in the relationship because you're keeping from something her or she fails the test. Like there is no good outcome to this loyalty test. There's there's no good out.

0:14:07 Eli: Oh, that's not true. I think that the relationship ends and those people don't breed. That's pretty important.

0:14:12 Thomas: That's a good point. Yeah. Unless

0:14:13 Tom: But suggested, like, oh, you're introducing deceit, and it's like, well, yeah, sure you are, but the other person doesn't know that they were deceived, so that's the nature of deceit. Well, yeah. I mean, it...

0:14:20 Eli: What they don't know won't hurt them. Dash Tom

0:14:24 Tom: Meet loyalty testers. Brandon, last name I'm not pronouncing, got the idea to start loyalty test...

0:14:24 Eli: Curry. Belling Shissingham!

0:14:34 Tom: Got the idea to start loyalty tests about two years ago after he saw some of his friends do loyalty tests on each other's partners. Oh, that's great. Get your friends involved.

0:14:42 Eli: Quote, we're a fucking sociopaths! End quote. Raw!

0:14:43 Thomas: I love

0:14:49 Tom: Business has been steady since, he says, with the website averaging 10 to 20 tests a day. People can apply to become testers for him by submitting their social media ID and other information.

0:15:10 Eli: Margins.

0:15:11 Tom: Bellinger says most of the people who order loyalty tests through his website are women. About 20% of those tests that he says fail unequivocally, meaning their response is, that's a high number.

0:15:21 Eli: I will fuck you even though my girlfriend doesn't want me to.

0:15:25 Tom: She's right here next to me right now. She is pregnant and giving birth.

0:15:27 Eli: I'm breaking up with her as we speak.

0:15:29 Thomas: It I'm imagining it's it's more like before the flirting even starts you know like it's like hi and then they're like where when and where yeah and actually 20 seems low to me to be honest with you for this for this group of people yeah

0:15:36 Eli: Came.

0:15:42 Tom: Christ. The cohort self -selects to some degree, right? Their responses to the tester are obviously flirtatious or express clear intentions of meeting up. Ari says many of the people who hire her for loyalty tests are either engaged or on the cusp of getting married.

0:15:58 Eli: Fucking

0:15:58 Thomas: That's that's great that's awesome

0:16:00 Tom: Neat. Some

0:16:01 Eli: So we're going to go see my grandmother. She's in a retirement home and she never got to meet Jeremy. And then I'm going to pay a stripper from Amsterdam to pretend she wants to suck his dick so that he says no. And those are just fun family traditions I'm showing you in this scrapbook I made for my great grandchildren. Oh, you're crying. Okay.

0:16:26 Tom: Ari says many of the people who hire for loyalty tests are either engaged or on the cusp of getting married. Some are about to move in with their partners. Others are deciding if they should have kids.

0:16:35 Eli: You should do a kid loyalty test. See if they fuck the kid, because that's important.

0:16:39 Tom: Oh, God. Please be lower than 20 % if those numbers come back. I need to wake up in a world where that number...

0:16:44 Eli: Depends. If

0:16:43 Thomas: My jesus depends on if you're talking about a republican politician or a priest yeah

0:16:46 Eli: Clergy, yeah.

0:16:48 Tom: You're not wrong. Royalty tests can be a little triggering sometimes, Ari says, reminding her of when she...

0:16:54 Eli: Because that word doesn't mean anything anymore. It's just a thing we say when we want someone to respect that we didn't like a situation.

0:17:03 Tom: Reminding her of when she was cheated on. Seeing the lengths some people will go in order to hide what they're doing can also be disturbing.

0:17:09 Eli: Hey, Thomas, remember when I had to come on your show and beg people to respect trigger warnings 10 years ago? And now fucking Ari, the loyalty tester, is fucking tossing it around like an old ball sack underneath the porch.

0:17:25 Tom: My god, I -read just this paragraph. I've read this article before, but Jesus. When testing someone, Ari stays in frequent communication with the person who hired her. One man, she recalls, wrote to her as he cuddled with his significant other. Will write their partners, and then they will love bomb them. They'll write the sweetest, sweetest message. I love you, Ari says. And then at the same time, they're writing to me, trying to meet up and asking me either for pictures or for things like that. Jermaine, another loyalty tester, says a tough part of his job is reporting back to the customer about their partner's behavior. He became a loyalty tester about a year ago after his ex cheated on him with a close friend.

0:17:58 Eli: Handling it super well, I became a professional cheating creator. The thing I didn't like, when my dog got hit by a car, I started driving 90 miles an hour around my neighborhood so that that everybody would have safer dogs. Men will do anything but go to therapy, ladies and gentlemen.

0:18:14 Tom: Obviously, Obviously, our job is to try to make them cheat if they're going to cheat, but we don't want them to cheat. You know what I mean, he says? At the end of the day, we don' want to break hearts.

0:18:26 Thomas: Same

0:18:23 Eli: Don't know anything about you, Jermaine. Don't know anything about you. I don' think you have an inner life, let alone what you mean.

0:18:33 Tom: A who goes by the username Villette, who has appeared also as a loyalty tester in viral videos on YouTube, says she understands the criticism loyalty tests receive and doesn't think they're the right choice for everyone.

0:18:43 Eli: I bet you don't, Villette.

0:18:45 Tom: Just the same thing as looking through your partner's phone, she says. Is it a good idea? I don't know. But don't do it unless you're willing to get your feelings heard. A loyalty test really means. Since starting his business, Balasingham says he's viewed hundreds, if not thousands, of loyalty tests. Many people, he suspects, don't see a point in being faithful when they feel someone better is a swipe or Instagram DM away. Chan says she understands the pain that would drive someone to seek out a loyalty test, but still, she doesn't think it's a good idea. When I discovered my ex was cheating, I went to extreme lengths seeking validation and proof, she says, but loyalty tests are really about avoiding something more difficult, vulnerability. It's easier to hire a stranger to test your partner than to have an honest conversation about your insecurities and fears. Than get a loyalty

0:18:49 Thomas: Thing yeah yeah

0:18:58 Eli: Society is in collapse.

0:19:00 Thomas: Wow

0:19:36 Eli: That's such a fucking insane recommendation. What a fucking... Do you think there's someone out there with the potential to communicate like a healthy adult who is considering a loyalty test instead? One second, darling. Let me put away my proust. Hmm. Shall I pay a thought on Instagram to hit up my man? Or is it time to use my I statement? Oh, Amy Chan has some recommendations. Very well. Time to use mine. Once again, thanks, Amy Chen, the author of a book about how to feel better after you've been broken up with.

0:19:36 Thomas: There it is

0:19:40 Tom: Truth. Truth. Security doesn't come from constantly verifying your partner's behavior. It comes from building a foundation where both people feel safe enough to be honest, even about difficult topics, Chan says. The businesses offering those services are monetizing insecurity rather than promoting healthy solutions. So a couple of things occur to me. How is this that much different than what's been going on forever, which is people hiring detectives or private investigators?

0:20:39 Thomas: Yeah well it's not that's also bad yeah

0:20:41 Eli: Yeah.

0:20:41 Tom: Yeah, it's essentially very similar.

0:20:41 Thomas: I slightly different in that you're actually interfering you know it's a little different to be like hey observe this person versus create well yeah actually no I mean it's difference between police setting up at a stop sign and police like trying to start a conspiracy with you and then yeah yeah like it's entrapment versus just investigating so it is different but I've neither are good don't get me wrong neither good yeah

0:20:59 Eli: To fuck your boyfriend.

0:21:10 Tom: Like I don'T, I DON'T actually think that you can be entrapped or lured. I don´t really believe you can lured or entrapped into cheating on your spouse. I think that´s fake. I THINK that´S nonsense. You´re either a person who is willing to do that or you are a person whose not willing to that. You either have a relationship you respect and won´t do that in or you have a relationship you do not respect and are willing. It's they're doing is creating an opportunity. But if you're an opportunist, then you're going to take an opportunity, but if you are not an opportunists, that opportunity doesn't change your day at all. Right? Like I'm a thousand percent confident that like could walk up to me in person at a bar online, whatever. And I'd be like, yeah, if I can, what are you here for? None of this is anything because I'm not an

0:21:55 Eli: I think that's is in some ways fair. I guess where I would push back against it is like, I think there are a lot of behaviors that people do in moments of weakness that they aren't necessarily. Program to do right like I don't think you're a particularly violent person but if I paid a guy to like come shove you and yell in your face there's a much higher chance that you punch him right like yeah you can make the argument that only a violent person would take that opportunity but I think purposefully exposing your partner or purposefully expressing someone you heavy air quotes care about to that situation to make a bad choice is I think a deeply unkind thing to do

0:22:32 Thomas: I agree you know I I don'T and yeah

0:22:34 Eli: Which is not against what you said, Tom. It's just, it's,

0:22:37 Thomas: I think I would agree with that. Eli, I'd also say I think there's another bit of a wrinkle where I'm not I think to some extent, Tom, I personally I believe that about you for sure. And I understand it. But I also think when we're talking about hiring hot people from a website, we might be dealing with people who like you're putting them in that marginal interaction where it's like, oh, no one this hot has ever hit on me before. And you might be doing something that's like fundamentally skewing the equation to a degree that I think is a little a little gross, you know, like it's not quite safe to say like, oh, this means they were always going to cheat on me if I've hired, you know, a hot person to like initiate something. It's a little

0:22:37 Tom: I, yeah, yeah.

0:23:14 Thomas: Bit like if you're an alcoholic and you know you have a problem and you keep away from alcohol and you're put in a situation where out of your control, alcohol is put in front of you. It doesn't mean like full. Not I'm Not saying you have no agency. I am not saying that But there is something fundamentally a little Unsettling to me about it that is like alright But they didn't need to be in that situation to test them

0:23:33 Eli: If your partner bought a bottle of wine and hid it in a cabinet and like, well, if you're not an alcoholic, it shouldn't matter.

0:23:41 Thomas: There is something about that that is Like I don't like that

0:23:45 Tom: That's a weird analogy to me because I think the suggestion then is like, all right, here's the contract or the bond that I'll make with you. We are going to decide, and you guys don't have to, right? The floor not lava, guys. But if you're going to be like, here is the deal. I'm going to enter into this relationship with you based on a pledge of monogamy.

0:24:03 Tom: But we're also going to say, unless hot enough, I will be faithful to you, but if somebody is...

0:24:02 Eli: Blood pledge. That not implied in all monogamy?

0:24:10 Thomas: Was that not in your vows

0:24:10 Eli: I really don't understand you people at all.

0:24:12 Tom: If somebody is super hot, then like we do have a we have

0:24:14 Eli: In the wedding vows. In sickness and death, here's my celebrity pass list.

0:24:19 Tom: Got to go. We've got a to get get out our promises free card if the temp if the temptation is high enough. It. That does seem bonkers to me.

0:24:26 Eli: Has inspired a great idea for me, though. Okay, so you guys know the show To Catch a Predator?

0:24:31 Tom: This is.

0:24:31 Thomas: Of it never watched it but so

0:24:32 Eli: So here, it's great. A dentist shot himself in the head. That's all I need to sell you on it. It's fucking awesome.

0:24:38 Thomas: It's the kind of thing where I would tell you to stop sending me this fucking shit because okay yeah no

0:24:43 Eli: So... Have sent you a person falling down and hurting themselves real bad since you said stop?

0:24:45 Thomas: You haven't I I appreciate it you deserve a shout out for that thank you again did you do that he's a considerate guy oh

0:24:48 Eli: Thank you. I love it so much. Never again. It's true. What you do. Okay. You get on Tinder and you have an adult. They're like, yeah, I'm a 35 mother of two. And like, blah, blah. It goes really well. You set it up. You lure a guy to a trap house. But then the person that comes out is one of those actors pretending to be a kid who's like, Yeah, my parents are gone for the weekend. Middle school is tough. And then it's just a prank show where an adult who's not a pedophile realizes that they're on to catch a predator. It's the best.

0:25:12 Thomas: You've

0:25:20 Eli: It's worst possible. And Chris Hansen comes out and they're like, no, I'm going to show you on my phone. But it's too late. The cops are already, the fake cops you hired are already tackling.

0:25:19 Tom: Oh, my God. Oh my God

0:25:30 Eli: That's a fun, come on. That is a fun prank show.

0:25:30 Thomas: Already shot yourself yeah Yeah. Okay. Okay, fun. I mean, I had this tangentially related thought when you're talking about like hiring or whatever. And it's like, yeah, how is this any different than, you rather than asking your partner's parents for the inheritance, stage a kidnapping so that they think your partner has been kidnapped and then they give the ransom. I'm just doing the like plot of Fargo. I don't know. It's like there's this big difference between creating a fictional reality where you're tricking someone into bad behavior. But no, No, I, Tom, I think you're, were you responding to me or was I responding to you? I actually don't remember now.

0:26:04 Tom: Or I think maybe you said, I don't know. Somebody said like, well, what if the person had never been flirted with by somebody so hot? And it's like, I'm going to promise that I'll be faithful to you unless the person is hot enough. Right. Like that's kind of like implied there.

0:26:19 Thomas: Agree, but it's also, so one thing that I notice and I'm, I'm not trying to cast aspersions or anything is do I feel like when it comes to these things, you're very principled guy and you reason very like black and white on this. You're like, this is the commitment. That's the commitment it is what it is, whatever. And I feel like I tend to come from a place of like, yeah, but also I think humans are very sloppy and messy. And it might be that someone wouldn't have cheated and they wouldn't go out of their way to cheat. They're not like looking to go talk to somebody or trying to create a situation, but something falls into their lap and maybe they're tempted in a moment of weakness. This. And I think there's a degree of difference and it doesn't mean it's okay, but I'm saying like there's, shades of moral difference there to me that I think it's, something unsettling about making, manufacturing that in your partner, you know, in a way that, that not just naturally happening. You know what what I mean? It's just something about that that bothers me.

0:27:10 Tom: I understand why you're bothered by it. And look, the thing is, I don't believe that if you are... genuinely, I do not believe that if you are this insecure about your ability to create a relationship where you have mutual trust, I think that if that, if you will feel like that, you should not be entering into a relationship at all, right? You've got some issues you got to work out. I get it. I even am very sympathetic to where those issues would arise from, right. Like people in this world have been treated badly. Fucking in this case. One out of five dudes is like, let's fuck. There's some dude hanging out, cuddling with his girlfriend, messaging somebody else like, hey, when can you fucking see my dick? Like, that's crazy. So.

0:27:27 Thomas: 100%. Yeah,

0:27:50 Eli: Okay. But if you don't do it while you're cuddling, how is she going to tell you what to say? Tom, that's crazy. See, this is what you're missing out on. You're missing

0:27:59 Tom: It's like I told I totally recognize. And it's something like it's I think the numbers I don't have them off the top of my head, but the numbers are between men and women are not that much different in terms of frequency of infidelity. And they're around 50 percent. So I totally understand there's a lot of people out there who've been hurt. And like I understand that. But also also no, no, also like you shouldn't be in a relationship until you've figured that shit out. Just shouldn't like you don't you are not in good enough condition to enter and psychologically. You are not the right kind of condition to fairly enter a relationship with another person. It's actually really unkind to the other person to enter into a relationship. If you're like, hey, I have this unbelievably toxic baggage, which probably was created entirely through no fault of my own, you know, like by this unbelievably

0:28:19 Eli: So close. He's so close. Well,

0:28:40 Thomas: I think

0:28:54 Tom: Should be single until you figure that shit out. And then I do believe, and I am black and white about this, but like, then I think you make exactly the promises you think you can keep, right? And you don't enter into a monogamous relationship and make that promise and look somebody in the eye and try to do it unless you think can keep that promise. And not like, I think I can keep it, but if they're hot and there's an opportunity, probably not. I feel like you got to know yourself better than that.

0:28:55 Thomas: I fully agree there. Yeah.

0:29:19 Eli: And I'll add, and this is something that comes up quite a bit, is that as those things change, as bodies change and our lives change and life situations change, I also think that you owe it to your partner to say if you can't keep those commitments anymore before the temptation comes. I

0:29:35 Tom: Yeah. Big I thing, right? I think a lot of people enter into a relationship, they look people in the eye, they make a commitment, they believe it when they say it. Then life happens. And I'm right there with the life gets messy part. Believe I that, I get that, but I fucking have lived a messy life myself.

0:29:49 Eli: Don't think so. It's all been pretty awesome for Tom. He doesn't get it.

0:29:53 Tom: But I do think you've renegotiate with yourself and renegotiate with your partner if you reach that point.

0:29:59 Eli: I'm just picturing at the end of a fight. It's like, fine. You know what? We'll go to your mother's. Oh, you know what I just wanted to mention? I don't want to be monogamous anymore.

0:30:08 Tom: The responsible thing to do, right?

0:30:10 Eli: Thank you.

0:30:11 Tom: The relationship or you hey, this is a promise I can no longer keep. Do you want to exit the or continue? But if you don't do one of those two things, then that's how people get hurt. And just mean to somebody else. That's just that's an unkind thing to do. And that'S the thing that people are trying to avoid, I think.

0:30:30 Thomas: I extent, and I also another way I would put the thing you were saying kind from, my you different way of of getting there I think is if you're what strikes me as ridiculous about this is I think it implies that you don't yeah all of it but

0:30:35 Eli: Filthy pervert way of getting there. Of it.

0:30:43 Tom: Yeah, all of this is absurd.

0:30:44 Thomas: Implies that things are fine otherwise because like either you have proof of cheating or you have suspicion and that you can just use that anyway or things are totally fine but you're so fucking insane that you're like yeah but what if things are fine but but what If they're not what if they're what if They're actually a secret, top secret liar. And I don't know. And at that point, if you're saying, what if my relationship that is totally essentially fine, in my view, is secretly not. And you go looking for a way to like test that in this really gross, manipulative way. Like you're just so far gone, man. Like there's just, it's just not, it was nothing. Nothing.

0:31:16 Eli: You're in psychosis. Here's what it reminds me of. And it's funny. So I used to have a friend and the punchline for why he's not my friend anymore. Chef's gift. So, I used have this friend and he married this woman who had been cheated on, he explained to us. And that is why he needed to call her several times a day whenever we hung out. And they would have these long phone calls that were very obviously fights where she was unhappy that he was not home. But he would like go hide in a fucking washing machine and be like, no, I did. I said I would call you back. I did call you. Well, I know it's 431, but that's close to 435. So that's what it was every time. Right?

0:31:59 Thomas: Christ.

0:31:59 Eli: And whenever we would call him out on this and be Like, hey, this is not an unhealthy part of your relationship. He would say, well, you know, she's been through this. She's been that and I think one of the thing that's really interesting about this article is that several people use the like I was once hurt so now I get to be a psychological abuser excuse right actually don't think it matters whether or not you've been put through a bad experience you still don't get to treat another person badly

0:32:25 Thomas: Still don't get to hire a guy to kidnap your wife and pretend to get.

0:32:28 Eli: You still

0:32:29 Tom: So Nobody's ever cheated on me. So does that mean I can be a tester? Like, I just want to make sure I could still make some extra cash this way.

0:32:36 Eli: You could still be with with pecs like those. You can absolutely be. I like riding bicycles and not drinking water. Can't promise that we'll fall asleep. Dad not included. But so I think that that is a part of it. Right. Other thing that I think.

0:32:56 Tom: Jesus

0:32:59 Thomas: What happened to not be your friend anymore and

0:33:02 Eli: Okay, so here's why he's not my friend anymore. So he worked at a summer camp and sexually abused one of the campers and

0:33:09 Tom: Fucking christ what this are

0:33:10 Thomas: You you dropped this on us the other week I think and there was no follow -up yeah oh

0:33:13 Eli: And said super wife absolutely stood by him the entire time. 100 % like tried to contact the kids and intimidate them out of reporting. Just the royal, from her very heart. It turns out she was ride or die as long as he was abusing children.

0:33:21 Tom: You serious holy

0:33:29 Thomas: Christ what

0:33:37 Tom: Shit this took the darkest possible turn this light -hearted silly stupid usa today story just took the

0:33:39 Thomas: The that is wow oh

0:33:40 Eli: I know. And look, he's still on the podcast, obviously, but, but we don't talk outside of work.

0:33:54 Thomas: Man I think he's gonna sue you I actually think you might get sued

0:33:59 Eli: Yeah, whatever, Heath. Get a million dollars together, big guy.

0:34:05 Tom: Curious. You you guys think that there is any, in a poly relationship, right? There are still rules. There are

0:34:12 Thomas: Only way gives a shit about the rules

0:34:14 Tom: It's not typically anarchy, right? I know sometimes it can be. That's a relationship style, right, but not technically anarchy. So there are still rules for behavior. So this is not necessarily a monogamous thing, right. I know it's probably 99 ,999 % of it, right but like jealousy is a human emotion, right worry, jealousy, the violation of rules and boundaries, like those things don't, those things are not incumbent only on the monogamists.

0:34:18 Eli: It's very rarely anarchy. Oh, yeah. Me give you my polyamory hot take. You ready for my hot take? Think we can

0:34:47 Thomas: We going suck to the corner suck to dick corner no no regular okay OK, because it's right.

0:34:49 Tom: Here we go.

0:34:51 Eli: Stay right here out at Nonstick Suck to Dick

0:34:53 Thomas: It's right over there. There's the banners there.

0:34:53 Eli: Corner. That's true.

0:34:55 Tom: We've got the corner for a reason. Can we just go there and hang out?

0:34:58 Thomas: Whoa.

0:34:58 Eli: Yeah. Not in sucked it in corner. You better suck a dick before you get over there, Tom.

0:35:02 Thomas: They have a very specific requirement.

0:35:03 Tom: There's no guest policy? I thought there's a guest policy.

0:35:04 Eli: This is what? Absolutely. Look at the past in your hand. That's a dick. You're supposed to suck it.

0:35:09 Tom: That's a dick. That's a Dick. No, all right. All right. I don't want to.

0:35:12 Eli: I was so clear.

0:35:14 Tom: Feel like I'm a guest anymore.

0:35:16 Thomas: Sorry, I'm just imagining the shining. They shine the black light on the dick to make sure that it's got the pass.

0:35:21 Eli: It's got the stamp on it that matches the person you came in with.

0:35:23 Thomas: That came from your mouth, I guess. I don't know.

0:35:26 Tom: How do I move from guest to member then? Jesus Christ.

0:35:29 Thomas: Again the member in your hand

0:35:30 Eli: Past, the past is the member. Yeah, exactly. I think there's two forms of polyamory. One is much more rules based than the other. I think the first one that is less rules based is, hey. In a monogamous relationship, but if you find a hot enough person and you fuck them, we're not going to throw up and sob and shake on the kitchen floor. We're going to be like, huh? All right. You okay? Yeah. You Okay? Yeah, I don't know. Not great. And then you just sort of forget about it. I call it the Willie Loman arrangement, right? Like Willie Loman and his wife, obviously not a lot great going on there, but she was like, I'll fucking care. He comes home to me. What I think 99 % of polyamory is. But, like all communities, the fucking poly weirdos make up 99 % percent of the expression of poly amory.

0:36:21 Eli: And that is the version of polyamory where one of you is a watch the other person, fuck the other person pervert. And, that's great! That's awesome! If you're a watch the other person, fuck another person pervert, polyamory rules! But, those have a lot of rules to them. Too many people don't put those rules in place because they're that kind of pervert. And they're like, do whatever you want. And then they're on vacation in Nice. And you're like. Okay, well, I didn't mean vacation in nice. I meant, like, come on his back. I didn' mean fucking go on vacation. Now I miss vacation. Yeah. I think there are places and times for rules. And, like. You know. Obviously, like me and Anna are, like very, very specific. At this point in our lives. One, because I'm a public figure. So there's like a bunch of rules about like decorum and how I can destroy our life by who I fuck, which is fun, right? Is not a lot of jobs where it's just like, yeah, that's a fun and chill thing, right. Is that like, there are certain people who I should not be having sex with, even if it's like technically okay or allowed or consensual, there's still people I shouldn't be having

0:37:13 Tom: So lighthearted too. Yeah.

0:37:30 Eli: And the kid is the most important thing. When we were childless, the amount we could like go and be with other partners and explore and those relationships could come to fruition was very different now than like, yeah, but the kids get home at three. Like my metamor, right, Anna's partner wants to go take her on a world war and trip around Rome, that means I'm on fucking baby duty for the next weekend.

0:37:52 Eli: That's my problem. That we have to start talking about rules. And guidelines.

0:37:56 Thomas: I'm trying to put my finger on like a difference too because like so I am someone who doesn't really have jealousy in this way at all and I a way in which it's like I don' I so I the spirit of Tom's question which I think is definitely a totally legitimate question is

0:38:12 Eli: It's the first of three ghosts.

0:38:15 Thomas: Is, is, um, isn't uh, this less about poly, uh monogamy kind of thing. It's more about like every relationship has its rules. And, and I'm trying to put my finger on why it doesn't, it doesn'T exactly fit for me. And I, I'M trying to think of why. AndI think it's cause like, look, Tom, I think cause it you've communicated to us are just pretty solidly monogamous and have no like challenges here and don't really literally can't see other women they're invisible to you and I think that like there's a level of

0:38:35 Eli: Don't believe that. I would like to say this. Thomas only speaking for himself. Want to free you sexually, Tom. Put a thumb ring on you. Your hair flow down to your ass. You're going to feel so good.

0:38:47 Tom: A thumb ring.

0:38:49 Eli: You going to wear a shark tooth necklace.

0:38:49 Thomas: There's the level of weird shared fiction you

0:38:52 Tom: The tickets to the Ren Faire or what? Yeah.

0:38:54 Eli: Absolutely, baby.

0:38:54 Tom: Here we go, babe.

0:38:55 Eli: Who's that over there? That's Cecil. Cecil with a... Yeah.

0:38:59 Thomas: Said a second ago that like 50 percent of and I thought it was really interesting the way you said it to you're like 50 of people what was it either cheat or have been cheated on I'm not sure what you said said, but 50 % of relationships.

0:39:09 Tom: I think it's cheat. I like, yeah, yeah.

0:39:11 Thomas: And it was funny because you're like, know, you you're saying like, oh, so that people have been, you Know, a lot of people have Been hurt.

0:39:14 Tom: A lot of people have been hurt.

0:39:16 Thomas: And, and it was so funny is in my mind, my reaction was, oh, okay. So this is basically an everybody thing and we should stop looking at it. Like it's some anomalous thing. And I thought that was really funny.

0:39:25 Eli: 50 % of the people who agree the floor is lava have to stand on the floor at one point going, Oh, I'm on fire. I am totally on fire right now.

0:39:33 Tom: No, because. No because I think I think the difference is like those people have been hurt because they they received a promise or they made a promise right at that and that's the right

0:39:44 Thomas: I know. I was just talking about the prevalence is all like the, Yeah.

0:39:47 Tom: So less people need to be making that promise right like maybe maybe that promise is way harder for other people like

0:39:52 Thomas: For sure. For sure. Oh,

0:39:52 Eli: He's almost there, Thomas. Thomas, hold. He is so close.

0:39:56 Tom: Look I think no I

0:39:58 Eli: Your neckline. There's a shark tooth necklace right there waiting for you, Tom.

0:39:58 Tom: Mean I'm never getting there. But I do think a lot of people launch themselves into relationships rather than just date non-exclusively, right? I think there's a lot of people, especially young people in their lives, who probably should just be non-exclusively dating. And they don't do that instead, and then they end up hurting or getting hurt, right? That's where a lot of shit comes from. And then a lot of shit, to be honest, comes from people that are in shitty relationships. And when they're in a bad relationship, they behave in ways that are unkind to the other person because they're bad relationship.

0:40:36 Thomas: I think I'm an analogy that might maybe at least communicate. I'm not trying to, you know, change your mind on any of your stuff, but like at least.

0:40:42 Eli: Am.

0:40:42 Thomas: Communicate. I think that like, OK, think about something like religion. About the fact that there's a whole you know how many think about how like I just remember growing up to before I really really understood like that. I was an atheist and kind of would see people who are like doing all this stuff about praying and like other, even just like kids where they'd be like, yeah, I believe in God. And then they'd Be like cursing and doing all this stuff that in their own system was wrong. I was like, well, what, what is the value? Like me as a little kid was like what is the value of this? If it's a thing that like you all say you believe, but doesn't really matter until like literally on Sunday, then that's when you're like, oh, okay. But then on Sunday like we And like an extent to which I think some people look at it more as a very culturally driven shared fiction sometimes and people maybe have different and they don't always communicate that and they there may be degrees to which if someone is really demanding this shared fiction which to someone else is like yeah okay I know I basically believe that but they don't really like feel it or care about it as much it's a lot easier to have a mismatch in terms of how important that is to you know what I mean like that's that's I think part of

0:40:42 Tom: I understand. Yeah, yeah,

0:40:48 Eli: Stupid and no one should believe in it.

0:41:12 Tom: Sure.

0:41:57 Thomas: Why it's not as simple as

0:41:57 Eli: It's like when your chill buddy marries a religious girl, and he's like, sorry guys, Thursday, gotta go to church. And you're like, fucking Thursday? And he gives you that sort of wide -eyed, like, this is who I am now look, and you're Like, ah, really, huh? And He's like yeah. And You're like ah.

0:42:13 Tom: Think there's some element of that. I, I think also that like a lot is what everybody wants to hear. This is the cultural expectation. So if they don't say this, even if they mean it, even, if they wonder about their ability to do it, if don't it, then they are not going to be able to get in relationships at all.

0:42:31 Thomas: Yep, yep. A hundred percent. And honestly, same with religion. Like that happens with religion every fucking day where people are like, Oh yeah, I know.

0:42:36 Tom: I think that's why I thought, yeah.

0:42:37 Thomas: I believe. Yeah, no, totally. Yeah. Christian.

0:42:39 Tom: And I think I think a ton of people are like, all right, that's what she needs to hear or she won't date me. Right. So I'll lie to her about this, even though it's not a value I hold, because if I don't do it, I'm going to get rejected. That's fucked up. I think that's super fucked up, right?

0:42:52 Eli: I'm

0:42:53 Thomas: It is. It is. And I don't want to make very clear. It's not, it's not excusing any of it, but it's putting it in a frame that yeah. And, and why to me I, the part where it's like, and there'll be cuddling in bed and the whatever it's that sucks it definitely sucks I'm not saying it doesn't suck it's less confusing it's les confusing when you look at it from the frame of like but that that someone's saying well we're gonna pray and say our seven hail marys and the whatever oh yeah yeah we're going to do that yeah and then someone else is like we're not doing doing that right and they're like yeah we'll do it you know it's like it when it's a little more in that mismatch of values that becomes a little less like fucking psychotic seeming that behavior I think. And,

0:42:57 Tom: But it's an explication. Yeah.

0:43:07 Eli: Telling you guys it's awesome. He's not praying.

0:43:20 Tom: Right,

0:43:29 Thomas: I, I don't think that 20 % of whatever that number is are like psychotic, sociopath uh, people. I think that this this, is different values that, that are sort of forced together in ways that aren't authentic all the time.

0:43:41 Eli: If Yeah, to put it in my own words, I think if your partner believes in something silly, you're allowed to lie to them. Because their belief is stupid.

0:43:48 Tom: What the fuck? What? This is

0:43:51 Eli: That's what Thomas is saying. I'm not saying that. I think what Thomas Is saying is that you can...

0:43:52 Tom: Bad advice.

0:43:57 Eli: Because your partner is kind of like a child or like an animal that learned to talk.

0:43:56 Thomas: That's not at all what I said. No, I'm saying this is what some amount

0:44:02 Eli: And you can trick

0:44:02 Thomas: Of people are doing. This is why this behavior happens more than we like. That's why they find it so shocking that this percentage of people do this. And I don't really find it shocking because I think it's.

0:44:04 Eli: Them. Yeah. Your stupid monogamous husband. Dash Thomas Smith. Put it on a pillow.

0:44:15 Tom: I think when it comes to these testers, just to bring it back to the article, I think I have zero sympathy for the people that were sort of entrapped. I don't believe that you can be entrapped, I just don't. I think the real problem is people who are way too insecure.

0:44:30 Thomas: Let's get time to commit a murder.

0:44:31 Eli: Was going to say.

0:44:33 Tom: I just think that people are way too insecure to be in a relationship at all get into relationships. Capitalizing on people's insecurity, just like the article said. It's like it's monetizing the bad psychological and emotional health that some people carry into relationships and be like, how can we how do we make money off of that? That's that's the part that I think is most egregious.

0:44:53 Eli: That's true. Capitalism making everything worse since ever.

0:44:59 Thomas: OK, but if you guys get a DM about starting another podcast with someone like super way funnier than me and like better at podcasting, then you better be careful.

0:45:05 Eli: From Jordan Jesse Go. Now we'll know it's

0:45:08 Thomas: It could be a trick. Could be a trip.

0:45:08 Eli: A yeah. On, ever when be betrayed by a podcasting partner, Thomas? Relax, you're being crazy. Right, gentlemen, before we go, today I got arrested for stealing a whole set of encyclopedias. I told the cops, wait, I can explain everything.

0:45:30 Tom: I kind of love that one.

0:45:30 Thomas: Yeah I like that one a lot oh

0:45:36 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads .com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILf, tom smith who also wrote and recorded the intro music which is used with his permission this podcast is a production of daddy issues llc copyright 2022 all rights reserved

0:46:18 Tom: Put me back in the pink slime. I like the pink

0:46:22 Eli: Riding bicycles and not drinking water. Can't promise that we'll fall asleep. Want to free you sexually, Tom. Put a thumb ring on you. Yeah. Oh, I'm on fire. I am totally on fire right now. Your stupid monogamous husband. Dash

0:46:32 Tom: Should