DOD194: Men Should Be Dangerous, According to Noted Badass Jordan Peterson

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:00 Clip: Excited to announce that Dear Old Dads has joined the Creator Accountability Network. CAN is a nonprofit dedicated to reducing harassment and abuse through ethical education and a system of restorative accountability. We joined because we care about the safety and well -being of our community members. If you feel our behavior or content has harmed someone, please report it to CAN, either via the reporting form on their website, creatoraccountabilitynetwork.org, or via their hotline at 617 -249 -4255. Will help us make it right and avoid repeating that mistake in the future. CAN also needs volunteers from our communities to help with their work. So if you have skills you think would be helpful or time and a desire to help, please visit their website to find out how you can volunteer. Importantly, get the word out to other creators who you think will be interested in getting credentialed. Help us build safer communities together. I'm the cool dad. That's my thing. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can. Complete and honor dependent. I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired.

0:01:16 Clip: Telling is the only part of being a father that I enjoy.

0:01:22 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast missing its most dangerous man. I'm Tom Curry. I've joined, as always, by Thomas Smith, but not today, by Eli Bosnick. No, are you fucking kidding me? Is a hundred percent Eli Bosnick Bosnick. I mean, right.

0:01:34 Thomas: Interesting who is the most dangerous member of the show I that all depends on your perspective are you a door or are you society you know like those Does it polite

0:01:48 Tom: Yeah. Well, all right. I, I, yeah. The, when I think of like, who

0:01:49 Thomas: Society or are you something that I need to remember to do? You know, like those are the three categories of, but we

0:01:58 Tom: We might need a lawyer involved? I think that's Eli Bosnick. When the show gets shut down, we're going to be like, yeah, we all saw that coming, right? We all knew that was going to happen. That was baked in as soon as we called Eli and said be on the show.

0:02:10 Thomas: Should, here's should level with the audience. We would never want to do a show without the only funny person on the show, but yeah, but Eli, but it's for good reasons. Since Eli's got good, a good thing going on and that we're rooting for him and doing a good life thing for him.

0:02:16 Tom: I'm in a panic. I'm going to have to be funny for him, not for us, because he's not here and I resent it, you

0:02:28 Thomas: Not for, yeah, I would rather his life be worse than he be here. That's for sure.

0:02:32 Tom: Hundred A percent. I know his life is worse when he's here. That's

0:02:35 Thomas: So it's a, you know it was the kind of thing where it was like, we could not find a way to make the reschedule work and, uh, he needs to do his thing. And so we're like, well, we will put out an incredibly serious, dangerous, unfunny show.

0:02:47 Tom: It is the Tom's show. The Thomas's show?

0:02:49 Thomas: Shit.

0:02:50 Tom: Which one? Do you ever go by Tom?

0:02:51 Thomas: Old Tom's. Do you ever? Okay, Tom. Tom to Tom here.

0:02:55 Tom: Tom to Tom. All right,

0:02:56 Thomas: Whenever, and this is not me trying to be fucking quirky or anything. When has to do with my lack of a personal identity of any kind. Side well all my life when people have asked me Tom do you go but right do Tom or Thomas I'll go I don't I don' t know I have no answer like I'll just be like yeah like whatever the first thing they say is I'm not sure and then they'll be like well wait do people call you Tom I'm back yeah a couple like usually yeah

0:02:56 Tom: Bring it in. All Yeah, people that I haven't corrected. People just call, like there's somebody out there calling you Barry because you've never, you've been like, eh, whatever, just address me in any fashion. It doesn't, you know.

0:03:30 Thomas: My name's Thomas I'll give them that like but it's like there are people who decide it's Tom and then And they're like, oh, wait, do you go by Tom or Thomas? I'm like, never thought about it. Like people call me Thomas for some reason. And why do people call you Tom? Like, where does that come from? You know?

0:03:44 Tom: I've been Tom, like I don't ever remember not being Tom. Like I've never gone by Thomas. But I will say like on all of my like professional correspondence, business cards, like email, it's always Thomas. And I would never put Tom because Tom feels too informal. To me?

0:04:00 Thomas: Okay. So I should start putting Tom on my formal stuff. We'll switch.

0:04:03 Tom: Go reverses! Go reversies! Were you ever a Tommy? Like when you were a kid? Like a little kid? I was a Tommy when I was little kid. I have a very, very good friend of mine who goes by Robbie. And I can't do it. He's Rob, I call him Rob. I just can't do it. He's a grown ass man and I know that's what he prefers. And I I get it. But like my brain, and it's not because I'm like, oh, I won't call him Robbie. Like I love Robbie. But my brain's like, that's a man he's grown up. You call him rob now. Like the whole E thing is for little kids like Tommy. I can't imagine like addressing myself at a work function or something like, Oh, hi, I'm Tommy. Just doesn't, it doesn't fly.

0:04:08 Thomas: Not at all. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. So it's the Toms. It's dear old Toms, one of us is old, the other's not. As old but it's also old but we're both very dear and uh we're gonna talk we're about being dangerous today nothing worse than us trying to do the show without Eli oh

0:04:45 Tom: Old Toms. You know, the only thing worse than being known as Tommy when you're not Tommy is, well, I feel panicky. Like I make jokes, they don't land. Like somebody's supposed to come in and swoop and save this shit.

0:05:06 Thomas: Sorry Tom you're used to the uproarious laughter that you get from one Eli Bosnick

0:05:13 Tom: No, Eli doesn't laugh at my jokes. He saves my jokes is what he does.

0:05:16 Thomas: That's okay no you're right that's 100 % that true real

0:05:19 Tom: Week I do Citation Needed, I never feel less fucking funny than doing a show with Eli Bosnick.

0:05:26 Thomas: Real talk I I've always said this and it's absolutely true I'm I'm I biggest fan probably and and is so great and and it it's a shame because I you know I used to be your biggest fan but then eli came into the picture you know it's just like and I it's like there can be only one yeah I was like ah fuck guess I gotta throw tommy away but uh no but it's absolutely true what you said was absolutely true which is eli Eli is like a joke lifter, you know, where you're just like, I'm so used to, oh, I need to reach that tall thing up there. Oh, somebody just lifted me. Oh okay. Wow. Oh somebody lifted me up. I can reach you. I can change that light bulb way up in the whatever. And now when he is gone, I am like, oh, just change that life bulb. Huh? What? I

0:05:30 Tom: Love him. Yeah, great guy. Yeah I don't blame you. Yeah I would toss me over too. Yeah yeah. Everybody does. No,

0:06:03 Thomas: Still, nope. I am right here.

0:06:03 Tom: I can't reach it. No,

0:06:05 Thomas: I'm further away. How did that, how is that possible? I can't, because he really does. It incredible. Is incredible. I of joke premises all the time that I think are good. And some of them are good, but I don't have that finishing quality. And so it's like, I would rather just have him do it.

0:06:21 Tom: Whole entire professional life, I am just saved by the higher competence of other people. Yeah, I could maybe cue something up, you know.

0:06:28 Thomas: Except in your literal professional life where you're like an incredible. The only thing worse than all that is the auto ads. That's right. Those things that despite what Eli says, you hear three times and three times only in the show. There might be, you know, it's three ad breaks. It's always three ad breaks. Never more than three. That's the amount we do. Four is too many. You know, that whole thing. But they suck and you should avoid them at patreon.com/dear old dads. And get the goodies, the bonuses, the month's bonus we're supposed to do today, but we don't want to do another thing without Eli.

0:07:05 Thomas: So it may be a little late, but, you Know, we'll get. Oh shit I just saw Google News we just got cancelled fuck the show's cancelled it's that fast wow it must be AI or something they're just like wow we already can't that's not true there's nothing that can stop two white guys from podcasting no force in this country can do it or this land .com/g0x oh

0:07:04 Tom: We're not doing two without Eli, boss. I'm already sweating bullets just having to be on mic with you alone without Eli Bosnick. Go! I'm not surprised. Yeah. Man. Episode. Fucking truer words. Right, so this episode, we've been wanting to talk about Jordan Peterson now for a while. So this has been On Your Radar. Forever, I think. Right. The Jordan Peterson like.

0:07:41 Thomas: And we all have talked about Jordan Pearson

0:07:43 Tom: What we thought we'd do is play a little one of his more sort of infamous clips in his advice to men and specifically the idea of being dangerous. This is partially taken from an interview between Jordan Peterson and John Stossel, who's the most. Credulous, softballinist motherfucker that has ever interviewed anyone ever. And take that from me, who often has people on to do credulous softball interviews on Cognitive Distance. Like, I know a fucking softball. I've thrown a million of them.

0:08:18 Thomas: That's the thing is like when you have someone cool on it, that that's fine. I know we do the thing where we try to say, well, if you did that, but for this, it's like, well but two things are different though. Like if you, yeah.

0:08:28 Tom: It is different. Yeah, I'm not having people on that have, like, controversial fucking ideas about, like who gets to be people, you

0:08:34 Thomas: You're like, yeah, it's like cool people are like, you want to get to know more about them. Give them a softball interview. If if it's the fucking, you know, racist, misogynist, whatever. It's like that you should grill that person. Cause that's That's the right thing to do because those views are bad. So, but

0:08:46 Tom: Maybe challenge a terrible idea once in a while. The problem is John Stossel's like, I have a terrible mustache and approve of your terrible views.

0:08:49 Thomas: I forgot he existed. Yeah. Terms of mustache, he's like the fourth mustache, you know? So top is what Tom Selleck, you Know, like that's just, yeah.

0:08:59 Tom: Tom Selleck is the number one mustache. Yeah.

0:09:02 Thomas: And then there's some others. And then I forgot.

0:09:03 Tom: And Tom Selleck and then Hitler. I think Hitler's a pretty, that's a Pretty Iconic mustache.

0:09:08 Thomas: I'm going to give you

0:09:08 Tom: You got to give, I'm

0:09:08 Thomas: A hard interview now. I'm not, I'm no longer a softball interview. Tom, what do you mean exactly?

0:09:11 Tom: Saying iconic. I'm not saying good. I was saying iconic, it's an iconic. You don't know a Hitler mustache, you're lying.

0:09:14 Thomas: When you say, but I

0:09:17 Tom: That's all I'm

0:09:17 Thomas: Mean, you could have at least put Charlie Chaplin first, you know, like before.

0:09:21 Tom: I could have. You're right. So,

0:09:25 Thomas: I did forget he existed though. Like, like when I saw this clip and I was like, oh, is this 1987? What is happening?

0:09:31 Tom: Because wasn't there a show like what was what was John Stossel show from the 80s that I grew up with? I grew Up with a show from John Stosel that I remember watching with my dad when I was a kid because I'm a million. And like he used to have this very popular show. Well, give me a break. I think it was. It give me

0:09:35 Thomas: Don't know. I don't know this is before my time I

0:09:54 Tom: Shit well I'm a million anyway he had this show where he would be like here's a consumer wackiness that you've never heard of isn't this the height of absurdity it was

0:10:03 Thomas: At just looking stuff up and there's some shots where he has a beard and it's like no man you no you I didn't give you a mustache you gave you a must you keep that fucking mustache that should be a law law there used to be laws in this country one of them would be if you're that mustache guy if you're freddie mercury oh boy he looks a lot like freddy mercury actually I'm not as good yeah I love freddi mercury but uh like if you if you'RE THAT mustache guy that's you you're fucking that's your thing you are that you don't grow a beard you

0:10:08 Tom: What yeah right you in a good way. Yeah, no. Yeah. And that's not it. Yeah right. Yeah not your thing. To just decide you have a beard. That's not how it works. Have seen the videos? We will get to the thing. Have seen the video where men like shave their beard and then like show themselves for their kids or whatever and then the kids freak the actual fuck out.

0:10:43 Thomas: Their kids or whatever yeah Lydia's dad did that to her and her sister like they they lost it was long before obviously the viral video portion but they just lost it and like didn't it wasn't good

0:10:57 Tom: It's incredibly unnerving. I've got a very good friend of mine, my buddy TJ. He grows this beautiful, majestic beard and he just looks like TJ. And then every few years, he'll just get a bug up his ass and he'll shave that thing and see him and I'm like, I don't even want to talk to you anymore. I don' t know if we can be friends until another six months has gone by and you've grown your fucking head back in. It looks as bizarre as if he showed up without his arms. It's insane.

0:11:24 Thomas: A picture Lydia was I for some reason I don't know if it was a Facebook memory or something and it was me without a beard and then she showed the kids I wasn't even thinking I was like kind of doing something else she's like yeah that's that's dad like he used to not have a beard I waslike oh my god I didn't even think of that like was like yeah I'm never doing that again I'll never not have a beard I think it was for a theater production so I had to shave and I just why would you ever who shave their faces I don't get it I don's know how you do it good good on you I guess I know to look worse like it doesn't it's not anyway all right we'll get to our clip here we go this but we're so dangerous we had to talk about fucking mustaches because it's just we're so dangerous dangerous man here we go yes

0:11:48 Tom: It That's just more work to do. That's of having a fucking beard. Yeah, right. Beards.

0:12:03 Clip: They should make themselves competent and dangerous and take their proper place in the realm. Competent and dangerous? Why dangerous? Because it's the alternative to being weak. And weak is not good. By dangerous, that implies I should be ready to threaten someone, to hurt someone. You should be capable of it. But that doesn't mean you should use it. Those who have swords and know how to use them would keep them sheathed while in character world. That's a way better way of thinking about it. There's nothing to you otherwise. But if you're not a formidable force, there's no morality in your self -control. If you're incapable of violence, not being violent isn't a virtue. Capacity for danger and the capacity for control is what brings about the virtue. Otherwise, you confuse weakness with moral virtue. I'm harmless, therefore I'm good. It's like, no, that isn't how it works. That isn't it works at all. If your harmless, you're just weak. And if you are weak, you aren't going to be good. You can't be. Because it takes strength to be good, it's

0:13:00 Thomas: And that's why I make sure to always have explosive level gas like just absolute talk but I don't pass it around people because that that's virtuous If you're sitting there with a stomach that just doesn't have to pass explosive toxic gas, well, then what good is that? What good are you doing? You need to be capable of ruining everyone's day and then not do it. Haveと point out to you the visuals of this stupid fucking YouTube short where it's like it shows like a samurai when it's the, well your sword sheathed. It's like fuck is this men is this it is isn't it this is this is men of a certain

0:13:31 Tom: Yo. It is. Being sold young men specifically. Right. So Jordan Peterson's whole audience is young, disaffected men. Right there is not an audience for Jordan Peterson of, you successful guys like me. Right, like guys who are in their fucking mid 40s that like have a life now are not buying in in bulk. Right in large numbers, buying into Jordan Peterson. I donT think that like if you are a secure and happy man this messaging means anything to you because what he's selling here yeah this is but like we're being sold this idea this this like bullshit useless idea of sort in this warrior culture all this talk on the whole, the whole right wing sphere right now around, around and maleness revolves around this idea of like joining this warrior culture. And they talk about it in like broader terms very often. And sometimes they actually say what they mean, but that's more rare.

0:14:06 Thomas: It's just just silly yeah

0:14:42 Tom: And But this idea of being part of a noble warrior culture is part of how they reach into that disaffectedness that seems to be like... don't know, endemic among a certain group and not a small group of This messaging matters because it works. That's why it's important to talk about this. It's important because this messaging is working. It is reaching a lot of people. Jordan Peterson is, whether we like it or not, he is a cultural force. He is a culture icon. He has way more ears on anything that he says than this show will ever have.

0:15:19 Thomas: God yeah he could send an email it gets more listens than us somehow that first off I have to say this jordan peterson is as dangerous as his room is clean uh is neither uh is just so funny because so many of these fucking dorks and I don't want to get there's nothing wrong with being a fucking dwork unless you're a fucking dork like this guy or fucking the other person who drives me crazy is tucker carlson and by this I I mean, being a fucking wiener and pretending you're this strong guy. You know what I mean? Like there's nothing, there's nothing wrong with any body type, whatever at all, but just this thing where you're cosplaying and it's for sexism reasons. I mean it's, it's

0:15:21 Tom: Dude matters. Yeah. Right. No. Oh, I know. I know! Mm

0:15:57 Thomas: Because, and I think I, I I, totally agree with everything you say. I also, I'm just trying to digest what's going on. I think. It's about reinforcing the things that make the. Okay. So let me step back. I think that men patriarchal society, in sexist society where there's always been and throughout human history, there's always that on or implied or of force of male violence like that's just always existed forever. Forever. And what we've done as a people that is really good is we've reduced that over time. It's obviously not nowhere near zero, but we've produced it over time, like it's become less and less acceptable. And that is a good direction that society is taking, and it should go faster and further. But I do think that means that it's felt like for this group of people you're talking about. And I people know me enough to know this is not me me justifying anything they're saying. I'm just trying to observe like what's, there's a reason this is so popular. And I'm trying to like put my finger on what that is. It's not in no way a justification of any of this, but it's like, I think that means it's felt for men. Feels like a loss when you're the group that's like ahead, you know, it's Like, okay, you're, the group, that's benefited from all this. When other people are trying to reach equality, it feels like you're losing something.

0:17:14 Thomas: And And I feel like that's this feeling. And so that is to say, I think a lot of this is a method of reinforcing a group identity by pointing to things that that group tends to have. So like if you're just an average dude or even a below average dude, probably it just comes to this people. And someone wants to rope you in with with a a message to kind of get you in this in group, they're differentiates me from, I women. And it's like, well, it's because you are dangerous. Like, cause like you can still look at, sports, um, you know, sports are male dominated. Certainly it's, it'S changing of course, but like the most popular sports, male dominated, you fighting's male dominant, like all these things that feel very masculine and men do are, you have an on average size difference and strength difference that is, that is significant. And so this way of appealing to that and saying, no, this is a thing that makes you special that women can't have according Is only a thing That you, this very special boy can have like It's how every single, you from the nineties until I don't know if they're still doing it was very normal, average white boy wakes up and realizes he's either a

0:18:17 Thomas: King or a wizard or whatever.

0:18:17 Tom: He's special. Right, yeah, yep.

0:18:20 Thomas: And it's like, yes, you, thought you were just a nobody. You're a very special boy. And I think this is a way of doing that. In addition to other things, I'm not saying it's the only thing, but I think that's how it functions too. It a message that will land on your average dude as this This is something you can accomplish. You can accomplish this like thing that's good, according to Jordan Peterson, which is being dangerous, but not doing you can acknowledge that women can't in this worldview. And so that differentiates you and gets you into this group initiation of sorts. You know what I mean?

0:18:50 Tom: Do. And I think like a huge part of this messaging is a reaction to a world where men who spend the least amount of effort being socially, economically and interpersonally valuable. People are disaffected feeling because they feel like they have no home, right? They feel like, like they put forth no effort and it used to be in times of yore that you put forth, no effort, but you know, still you were valued, right. You were valued because like we had built economic and other systems that required. A man in a household for women to survive. They couldn't get a fucking business loan or open their own credit card or have their own money or own their own property. So the amount of effort that men had to expend in order to be valuable socially and interpersonally and sexually was almost zero. It was essentially the bar was like, you dig deep enough to crawl under that fucking bar is how fucking low it was. These guys say, hey, Now none of that means anything, and we need to reestablish the value of physical strength in a world that no longer requires or values it. And they say physical strength, the reason that the weenies that you're pointing out, they have to compare themselves to men. What they're really trying to do is say, hey, what we're really missing is a society that values us sociosexually. That's really at the heart and the root of a lot of this stuff. They don't want to say it out loud, but that is absolutely at the root because this stuff dovetails so well with the incel movement, right? Messaging speaks into and amongst that incel moment for a very specific reason, because this is really a pushback against a world that has moved on. From needing this sort of like very specific physical I am physically stronger than you and that is why I have value right

0:20:48 Tom: The world is all like yeah fucking everybody can touch keys on a keyboard who gives a shit that's nothing that's not how anything gets done in the world anymore so these guys like they intentionally are trying to rebuild that value system for men to embrace. And they couch it in all kinds of fucking mystical mumbo jumbo bullshit. But at the end of the day, it's like, well, I'm fucking stronger and that used to matter. And it's well, yeah, but it doesn't. It just doesn't and you you're fucking uncomfortable living in a world where your physical strength is literally meaningless.

0:21:24 Thomas: I mean, I wouldn't go so far. I think it still matters. I think I think the way and you've said this before, the way you're perceived in the world is definitely different than, you know, Eli or I, for the most part, just based on your your physical size. And like it does, it does matter in some ways. But I take your point.

0:21:38 Tom: Your experience.

0:21:38 Thomas: But but but I think another thing that goes on, I talk about all the time is I really think the primary thing that this group of people, largely speaking, the Manosphere and even just honestly, MAGA, like what they want is a world where they don't have to change or apologize. Apologize and that's the key thing they want and what I think this is is a little bit of like dressing up of that as something else so like it's oh no it's not that you uh refusing to change or apologize or or have any imposition on you whatsoever it's like that it's such a fucking manly it's a charm because that's that's two very different things but it's conflated because and I I think because if, Brock if, Lesnar walks in here and start, you know, if somebody who's just the largest man, I can think of just a giant dude. If he walks into a room and starts insulting you, it's like, okay, well, that's not super happy about that, but I'm not really going to bother saying anything.

0:22:27 Tom: Yeah right I'm I'm going to do about it

0:22:33 Thomas: Fine. And and it's that ability, the bigger you are, the less you feel like you need to apologize. You know, the biggest dude in your high school or whatever. Ever. Like were lucky, he was just nice randomly. Or if he wasn't like, then you're unlucky. And it's like, he that person never had to apologize for shit. There's, there was never, you know, like they kind of dictated the flow of what went on socially sometimes if they were this of person. And like, there's not really much you could do about it. You know, like you were just kind of, kind of go a lot because, and Who wouldn't, want you that privilege of never having to change or apologize like that? That's something that a lot of like just naturally people would gravitate into. I bad. I think it'S very bad. And I think IT'S for me, I think It'S really weak and IT'S really childish because for me IT just reads as childish. All of this stuff is really the very stuff that we get on children for You this like never apologize, never admit you're wrong. It'S like we wouldn't tell our kids that, would we? Why do, why do you think adult men should do that?

0:23:31 Tom: A contrast in his opening statement. He draws a contrast between being dangerous versus being weak, right? As opposed to contrasting being strong with being weak. Right? That's the real contrast. Like being dangerous has essentially no social value. Right. There's really no need. To walk around and be dangerous in the world. He also never defines dangerous to who, right? So being dangerous is not something you just intrinsically want. You gotta be dangerous to somebody, right. There's always a someone that you are dangerous to. He intentionally refuses to define that. But I think like really importantly, the markers of strength that are socially valued have changed over time. One of the markers that is less valuable as time goes on is that idea of being able to fight and be physical in the world in a way that like that warrior culture bullshit has venerated for so long. Those guys that like they're like, yeah, but that's my big fucking that's My big sell in the World is that I am physically, you by averages stronger than women. Like that's the only thing I have to offer. That's kind of it. In a world that has built different markers of strength and success, those guys are increasingly sidelined.

0:24:47 Thomas: It's like the, famous the quote that's so good. It's like, Oh, women without men in the world, who would protect you? And then the reply is like, protect us from who?

0:24:54 Tom: Yeah, that's exactly it. And think that's part of, because I always try to understand, what is at the heart of this disaffection? If we don't understand the heart and who specifically feels spoken to by these stories, we can't counter them. Like it's one thing for us to look at Jordan Peterson and say, like, that's nonsense and it's nonsense on its face. And here's why. And that's really valuable. But if we don't dig into why are millions of people listening and watching his YouTube videos and nodding their head, like what does it speak to? Like, that that piece is really essential. I think it's that piece of the most important part of trying to understand the phenomenon in order to counter it.

0:25:36 Thomas: People will disagree on this, but I I think, naturally speaking, like men are pretty shitty. Like I think we're working against the grain. I think if you look back through history, I think that bears that out like left to our own devices left to just humanity in general. I it's not like everyone is shitty or anything it's that the you just look at a broad system and the incentives are if you are stronger you get to kind of get away with some shit that you wouldn't otherwise naturally some amount of that is going to happen in nature and I think that the process of having a much better society where everyone you has fundamental rights and all that thing that is working to a certain extent, against nature, I think. I And think we've seen this, especially in the last few years, but I've been saying it for I think humans are also naturally very, I don't know if I'll say racist per se, but xenophobic. I mean, we see that in every country, every single kind, like the minute there's any, yeah, I mean, it's just what it is. Like we're just, that's, unfortunately, that's the nature we're working with. And so in my mind, I have that doesn't cause me any trouble. I mean, I hate it, but I think there are people who, who to, feel like, oh no, the state of nature is great. And we've like messed that up in some way, or they need to think that there's some better, more noble fundamentals that we have. And I just don't think that like, we come from roving packs of fricking primates that do horrible things to each other. Like if you look at nature and what we've kind of evolved, not, strictly strictly speaking, from, but, you know, alongside with our ancestors, it's not a place you'd want to live. Like, it just

0:26:27 Tom: Cross -culturally true, right? Yeah. Yeah,

0:27:04 Thomas: Isn't. And it's speaking, like, all of this progress is going to come at -unquote cost of, like... need to modify their behavior. And naturally...

0:27:13 Tom: Well, the cost is change.

0:27:15 Thomas: And that's just hard. It's going to be hard for some group of people. It just is um that group of people is always going to have this easy out and there's always going to be these folks that can appeal to that you know no it's not that you you don't need to change society needs to change you're this noble warrior and that's why it's so funny when people like peterson and other people especially um carlson who is just such a fucking sniveling little wiener like I can't any any talks like he's this tough guy and he's like yeah right right, men? It's like, what? Would be thrown into any locker of a locker, put you in any locker room. You'd be in the locker in three seconds. But, but gets to like appeal to that group sense of no, no, once, once we have a common enemy, which is kind slash just any sort of like society that wants to correct your behavior in any way, or like have you modify your behavior in any way, then it's fine. Then it's like, people will love to hear him bash all those people, you

0:27:37 Tom: I know, I know. Yeah Well, I also think that these guys I astutely understand that we have moved away from an industrial economy And moving away from the industrial economy, which is a relatively new phenomenon, right? That's only the last generation and a half, you moving away From an industrial economy greatly leaves the physicality Of the male body less valuable,

0:28:29 Thomas: It used to be like, what are you going to do? Go, go get a job in the mines. And now it's Like, oh wait, you can, women can just go get a job.

0:28:34 Tom: Well, and like for a long time In an industrial academy, like of the male was Body very directly economized, right? Like there was a one -to -one relationship to the value of being male in an economy that was an industrial. Now that we've moved away from that, there is no value just like the value keeps going down. And this reactionary impulse, I think, is being seized on where people are, they're feeling very challenged by that, right? Because again, there is a huge group of guys who, because they look at the way their fathers and their grandfathers and their great grandfothers all lived and worked and were valued and behaved and like were valued sexually and were evaluated socially and were validated monetarily. They look at all those generations and like, well, now none of this is working for me. So something must be wrong in our society and it's like well No, I mean, it's just that like their give back to the world was really just like an industrial economy give and that's no longer necessary. And so we have to do different things now in order to adjust to a new world and economy in order for us to be valuable and to have those markers, like I was saying before, those markers of strength, because markers of are still attractive. It's just it's not biceps. And fucking matter. It was biceps before because biceps indicated to the world that you could do a thing that was otherwise valuable. That was the importance of that kind of male embodiment. Now markers of success will be more indicative

0:30:14 Thomas: Cyber

0:30:15 Tom: Of financial success. Yeah, but not the Cybertruck because that's indicative of assholery. You know what I'm saying? And like they've lost the thread. So these guys have lost the threads. They retreat back into the into the old. It's just classic conservatism.

0:30:16 Thomas: Truck, baby. Oh, I can't But I can'T help thinking about how How much of that may have been a myth in a way, like some, how much of like that? Cause like, I was just thinking every back to a black and white movie, think back to a whatever. It's like, there's plenty of fucking people in suits. There's all been people inuits. There's always been people doing accounting and, you know, business and running and politics and, and, that shit. And then I thought, oh wait, yeah. The other thing we did as men was create this misinformation environment in which women Women also weren't capable of that, where we're like, yeah, although a woman can never lead anything or a woman could they can't do the accounting and the law and all that that we do. And then you also think about like, oh, they also said that about black people. They also said it's like, yes, the people with the privilege, the People who initially, I think, to a lot of power due to those dynamics. Dynamics um once you have that that power it's it's so easy if you have a shit ton of money it's easy to make money unless you're donald trump you you have a power it'S EASIER TO HOLD ON TO POWER THAN IT IS TO EVER LIKE TAKE

0:31:01 Tom: But Yeah, right. Yeah

0:31:30 Thomas: POWER IT JUST IS AND ALL THOSE METHODS LIKE ONE OF WHICH BEING CREATING LIKE ENTIRE MYTH MAKING IN WHICH WOMEN AREN'T CAPABLE OF THIS STUFF YOU BLACK PEOPLE AREN't CAPALE this stuff it's only that's white men who are capable of doing all these things wouldn't you know it those are the people who are benefiting from it and we did almost create a world in which it's not just about muscle it's also just we've created a fiction in which we're the only ones capable of doing all these things I

0:31:54 Tom: We've also done is we've created a world where. Doesn't matter what the markers of strength and success are, whether they're physical strength or whether they are financial strength. That suit is a marker of power, right? That suit as a communication to the world about who you are and what you're worth and what your power is. And that's why that's attractive. Like we've built whole societies that venerate that stuff. And then, you know, you put it in the media and you, you do all of the things that you do in order to like further build an enculturation that venerates that stuff and that idealizes that stuff. And then at the same time, you put structural elements in place that literally make it impossible for others to compete with you on that. Now that we're in a post -industrial economy where many of those structural impediments have been removed, again, who for generations got to see the other men in their lives who like... it around fucking all the plates without having to like ever worry somebody was going to throw the ball and strike you know get them out or however the fucking metaphor should work for baseball like

0:32:56 Thomas: Struggling to figure out what you were even talking about that was wow okay you were doing baseball I thought you were spinning plates for a second and all right and

0:32:57 Tom: I don't know it was not good it was close to place like those dudes like never had to work very hard and now they have to have to work as hard as everybody else that's all anyone's asking right

0:33:09 Thomas: It's an uncomfortable work because men will still have the fantasy. And I think this actually directly plays into it. There's so many men with a fantasy that they're going to like, I'll hold down the fort and, die you in a blaze of glory while you and the kids leave. And it's like, men are so much more willing to think about like sacrificing their bodies for violence for their family than they are to just like, yeah, to your kids and in a way that's like sensitive and like, It's amazing. I think it's just, yeah, don't know how much of his nature, how much of his nurture, but it's a combination of it. And it's really hard for a lot of men do to that.

0:33:43 Tom: To that point, because you see that sort of stuff all the time, that's the easiest shit in the world because no one's ever going to ask you to do it. Your kids in a loving way and doing nap time and bedtime and bath time, being like, hey, if an intruder comes in here, I'm the one who has to deal with it. An intruder's never broken into my fucking house. There's no ask there, right? There's no give there. If Haley and I said, okay, my job is to defend this house of intruders, and your job is okay, let's did a stopwatch. And every time I have to defend the house from intruders, we hit my stopwatch and every time you have to make dinner, you hit your stopwatch we'll add that up and we'll see who's done more work, you right.

0:34:13 Thomas: To do everything else. Yeah, oh boy. Yeah idea too that we need to do this otherwise we're weak I meant to bring up that contradiction contrast too where it's like well not like it's just like if I said hey Tom you want your food to be poisonous and you're like why well because if it's non-poisonous then it's bad you know like if it gets weak you don't want weak food you want it to taste like poison it's just not those aren't opposites Like not, you're not either weak or dangerous, you if I want to put on some suntan lotion, I don' t want it to be fucking dangerous. Like it's not either weak or dangerous. It can be capable or, you know, like it doesn't, that's not a word it needs to be. This is such a dumb, silly, fucking thing. I also wonder, like, is therethink, we've talked about this before, is Is there anything to the idea at all? Like, separate this, very imperfect messenger, because he's so dangerous. He'll cry at you at any moment in his messy room. If you come into a super messy room, he will

0:34:53 Tom: That's right. It's so stupid.

0:35:15 Thomas: Cry instantly.

0:35:16 Tom: Don't make me weep in your general direction.

0:35:18 Thomas: Yeah. And hey, as a crier, I don't sit around pretending that me crying is whatever. Anyway, is there anything too? And I to ask that question. Then right away, it's like there isn't one fucking way to be. I just don't understand. Like so much of this comes from this weird. Must be this natural react. People a very natural mentality that there's one way to be. There's like platonic ideals of stuff like men and women. And I just it's so alien to me to even think like that. You could be a big guy and that could be your thing. You could be a big, strong guy. That shit, there's nothing wrong with that. I like working out. I used to, when I had time, there was time. There's nothing wrong with being the big, strong guy, there is nothing wrong. And it's cool. Like maybe, maybe that one odd time in a million, you will be able to like protect someone in some altercation. That is cool. Nothing wrong with that. Is that the only fucking way to be like, you know, like, or you could be smart. Maybe your thing is your, you know, whatever your thing is, there's not one goddamn way to be. And I just don't, I'll never understand why that's so attractive to people. It's so attractive to so much of our society that there has to be one fucking way to be for men and women, penises, vaginas, one way.

0:36:26 Tom: That that idea is appealing because so many of us, especially at young points in our lives, are searching to try to figure out. Who to be, how to build our identity. If there was a way to be that would be very comforting, right? Because then that would sort of set up a world where I knew what the rules were. And if I know what the rules are, I can engage with those rules in a way that like satisfies those requirements. And I can be the right kind of man, right. Or the right kind of woman or the right boss or the kind of father or the son or the whatever is there were those platonic ideals. Ideological And hucksters that live in this manosphere space they sell that idea very specifically because they know people are looking for it because the alternative is to embrace the idea that none of that is real and that who you are is like construct that you have to decide yourself to value And then hope that you can also build a value with others from yourself individually. That's scary. Like nobody wants to do that. That is a lot of work. And what if you get it wrong? And what if you are not valued? And I have to deal with the insecurity of that stuff. Is, what strong is. But actually important because they never actually define those terms. Jordan Peterson here doesn't tell you what dangerous means. He doesn't what dangerous how.

0:37:52 Tom: Dangerous isn't even a word absent context that does in that sentence. It literally doesn't do anything in sentence.

0:37:58 Thomas: Could be referring to your toxic gas. Could. Yeah,

0:38:01 Tom: And I think that's super intentional because what he does is he creates a sort of ideological substrate. That people who are listening can imbue with their own biases, their own desires, their versions of themselves. And they can say, I'm dangerous because I have the ability to inflict violence upon others. And that's the most sort of elemental way to do it. In other interviews, he sort of backs off of that idea because it's an idea that's very easy to challenge by anybody literally at any time. But his whole dangerous versus weak dichotomy. Real Like dichotomy is strong versus weak. Right.

0:38:40 Tom: But like I can be strong without being dangerous. I can tell you what I can. I could tell you I would be heartbroken if my wife didn't think of me as strong and I would If Haley said to me, like, I think you're a dangerous person, I'd be like, fuck, I have given you the wrong impression. I want you to feel like intensely safe, right? Like that is the goal of every day of my life is to make sure she feels secure.

0:39:01 Thomas: Yeah I would never want. Yeah yeah. Someone threatens our kids, my wife can be assured that I will be very dangerous to that person, you and maybe that's not, Not Every Dude, maybe, I don't know, I think that's most people, like most people there's even the, oh, the mama bear is going to come in and tear the, but like most people feel that they have the capability to go, you on someone who's threatening their family, and I have no problem with anyone thinking that about me, because I would, like truly, especially at this young age where it's like all the brain chemicals like that will engage a level of just murder that that's not applicable anywhere else.

0:39:42 Thomas: But other than that, you know what else is really strong is like the foundation of a house. Incredibly strong. Is it dangerous? It's No, good.

0:39:43 Tom: But not if it's built well.

0:39:50 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. The danger would come from it not being strong. Actually, that's important. Like these stupid fucking metaphors, like some, a can, reveal some stuff, but it, it need to search deeply and see, does this actually track? Because the way these people like to work is using metaphor that has one very clear meaning, but there's no clear mapping of that. Like there's no reason why that's the one metaphor we ought to be using in a given situation it just isn't like you could be I don't know a fucking bridge is really strong and not dangerous it's only dangerous if it weakens which that that would mean the dangerous is part of the weak part and the strong and stable and steady and protective and useful is all on the other side of the equation together so that jordan peterson yeah fucking go clean your room you little I

0:40:36 Tom: That, you fucker. I fuck. I do like just I fucking get like the fucking weeniness of these guys, of all of them.

0:40:46 Thomas: Know it's so it bothers me so much

0:40:48 Tom: Makes me crazy. It really does, because it's like, man, you guys are out there selling this.

0:40:53 Thomas: Because they're pretending to be tough guys like I want to make clear like I'm no problem with it yeah it's like yeah

0:40:56 Tom: That's the only reason I care. I don't care at all about the rest of it. It's like, do you know what, just as a funny aside, it reminds me of when I ran into Sargon of Akkad. Might you were there you remember that like yeah when I ran into sargon of akkad like I was not in I kept my hands down at my side like I'm aware of my physicality right so like in that exchange we had a very heated exchange it's on video everybody else has their hands up and are gesticulating wildly and he's got his finger in people's faces and I am very purposely keeping my hands In that exchange, very purposely keeping my hands down at or below my waist. And I still got kicked out.

0:41:08 Thomas: I remember yeah yeah

0:41:35 Tom: I still get removed.

0:41:35 Thomas: Well that's exactly I was I was waiting to jump in with that very thing the exact tucker carlson equivalent in that situation is I mean it's somewhat sargon but it's also the fucking assholes who ran that event that that sexist manosphere worshiping event the minute you came over and talked to a guy in a confrontational way not and like you said you were very careful to not like get physically threatening in any way they called mom you know they like to call the the fucking security over to have you escort out, showing that none of these people are actually tough. The people who are genuinely tough, no, no.

0:42:11 Tom: They're not. They don't have the strength of their own ideals, for God's sake.

0:42:14 Thomas: And what's unfortunate is now that I say that, is this such a broad -based appeal that there are plenty of actual tough people who buy into this. But for the most part, who stand to gain the most from this ideology are the people who aren't actually tough and aren't able to contribute in a meaningful way other than by trying to associate with this trope of men that they think they can be a part of.

0:42:37 Tom: They want that one thing that they've cultivated about themselves to be valuable. When in fact, for most of their lives, it isn't. It's just not, you know, like what good is like, what good as being somebody who can like beat somebody up in 2025. this just literally has no use.

0:42:50 Thomas: I know. Unless you just decide to do that, like unless you're a fighter, like if that's a sport you do, okay, sure. But yeah, it's like, I don't even, I barely go out of the house. I don't need to beat anybody up. Nobody needs to beat me up. I'll be here, you oh a joke oh would someone have to tell a joke hypothetically oh man okay I'm

0:42:59 Tom: If you make your living doing that. Yeah, Oh, we should have a joke ready.

0:43:20 Thomas: The other day I remembered that one, told to the kids, I was like yeah, a mom tomato a kid tomatoes were walking somewhere, and the kids couldn't keep up, so the mom squeezed them and said catch up, and they're, and I love it with the kids because with it with a five-year-old, and you know it takes them like a good three seconds, like the sloth from Zootopia, you. That's the best part. And they're like, catch up. And then you see it and they're like, ah, and their faces, you know, it's, does tell you why dad jokes need to exist. They have to be bad for this very purpose because kids aren't good at jokes yet.

0:43:52 Thomas: And, and they need the simple ones to be like, that's a double meaning, you know, like so good. Anyway.

0:43:52 Tom: They're not they also take like three hours to tell the joke like that's my favorite part like they start to tell a joke and you're like oh my god this is a three-line joke and 20 minutes in this is just jesus christ oh

0:44:08 Thomas: One. I asked my wife if I was the only one she'd been with. She said, yes, all the others were nines and tens, but I'm so

0:44:15 Tom: My God that's a dad joke boomer joke all like wrapped into the same thing that's good, terrible parenting

0:44:27 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith who also wrote and recorded the intro music which is used with his permission this podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:45:09 Thomas: Has to do with my lack of a personal identity of any kind. Side you keep that fucking mustache that should be a law law there

0:45:13 Tom: Salleck and then Hitler. I a consumer wackiness that you've never heard of isn't

0:45:22 Thomas: Men and women, penises, vaginas, one way.

0:45:25 Tom: Don't make me weep in your general direction.