DOD185: "My Partner Won't Get Help and I Feel Stuck..."

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad. That's my thing. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can. Complete and utter dependence. I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired.

0:00:22 Clip: Telling is the only part of being a father that I enjoy.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's unafraid to wash its ass. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:38 Thomas: Stance. We're taking a bold stance.

0:00:39 Eli: There anything worse than the I'm going to say annual revelation of horror that just glides into the Internet where we realize like 40 percent of men don't wipe or, you know, six out of 11 men have never seen they don't know you're supposed to use the bristly end of a toothbrush, whatever the fuck it is. Like, is there anything that more verifies for you why Donald Trump is president than the yearly, I ain't washing that conversation we have to have as an internet culture?

0:01:13 Tom: I was blown away when I found on the internet like all these women saying like, yeah, my boyfriend thinks it's gay to wash his ass.

0:01:22 Eli: It's so insane.

0:01:24 Tom: To wash your ass!

0:01:23 Thomas: It has to be fake, though, right? It has. It has got to be. It can't

0:01:26 Eli: Well, that's the other thing too, right? Like, it's fake, can we talk about how fucking insane it is that so many people are just like, you know what I'm going to do today? A little creative writing exercise with human existence because I'm the main character and everyone else is a chat bot that I just get to fuck around with whenever I feel like like it's almost worse to pretend you think washing your ass is gay than than thinking you're washing your as is gay

0:01:28 Thomas: Be real. At least take a moral stand. At least.

0:01:55 Tom: What so

0:01:55 Eli: Like at least you're wrong and can be made right but that's the problem with so much wrongness these days is that like 90 of wrong people are just pretending to be wrong against hoops you ask who fucking knows well

0:02:10 Tom: Hooms no what

0:02:09 Thomas: I it's it's it's ruined our entire existence I'm telling you

0:02:14 Tom: Equally unnerving is how easy it is to believe that too if I wrote a fucking short story about how my car turned into a dinosaur yesterday you'd be like well that's certainly nonsense but when I write a story called my boyfriend doesn't wash his ass there's plenty of people are like that tracks right that's the thing like that shouldn't seem plausible we should be like well that's obviously nonsense but

0:02:30 Thomas: Seems plausible yeah but

0:02:38 Eli: The reason the reason that we believe it is because we've created these spaces for community that these just internet ghouls have have filled with their short fiction exercises, right?

0:02:49 Thomas: Also bootstrap stuff like that into existence so I don't necessarily take that as sign that it's like plausible because when it comes to like the blake lively stuff or whatever it's not it's just like about a woman being, you know, crazy or something, then it just bootstraps itself into existence. So I don't know what to believe.

0:03:07 Tom: Also like there's so much fucking like internalized homophobia among guys that I'm just like yeah I actually believe I believe that there are at least a non -zero number of women out there who have a boyfriend who's like I ain't washing my ass it's gay right

0:03:12 Thomas: That's fair. Yeah.

0:03:13 Eli: Why not? Yeah. You've

0:03:23 Thomas: Imagine if this were real. Imagine if this were a real choice that we had to make where someone for some reason was like, hey, Tom Thomas, Eli, you've got a choice. We're forking the road. You can either wipe your ass or you can be gay. I'd be like, well, I guess I'm gay. Well, that'S weird. Okay. Why would that Of course, I mean, yeah, I have shit

0:03:38 Tom: Bring me a dick I will suck that dick rather than not wash my ass no

0:03:42 Eli: Obviously.

0:03:43 Thomas: All over me. Are you kidding? I guess I'm gay. I don't know. Weird.

0:03:45 Tom: Problem problem.

0:03:45 Eli: Think of this nightmare mirror maze we exhibit where there are people who actually think it's gay to wash your ass. There are people pretending to think it was gay to watch your ass, and then there are other people who did think it is gay to do it, ass heard their own opinion reflected back at them and so are now pretending that they were pretending that it's gay and this is about every issue no matter how insipid or stupid or important or vital or demonstrably untrue no matter what we do there's just a corner of the internet where everyone is just wasting each other's times in an infinite circle and it's because we didn't punch punch a nerd in the eye anyone anywhere mark zuckerberg is could punch him in the eye and it would be over instantly he just has never been punched one time in the eye we

0:04:09 Tom: I fucking love you right now. Feel so much like you're channeling 2015 Tom that everybody said was fucking crazy in 2015

0:04:44 Thomas: This wasn't

0:04:44 Eli: Have to get rid of all of it we

0:04:46 Tom: It was it was

0:04:45 Thomas: As true then. You were wrong then, Tom.

0:04:50 Eli: To yeah you're fucking cassandra okay it's weird to say medea's gonna kill her kids she's treating them great right now right but gentlemen hey you know the the only thing worse than when medea murdered her kids and when I mispronounced her name away from the original greek and towards the tyler perry film why it's

0:04:57 Tom: Not good in 2015

0:04:59 Thomas: Hey, auto -ass. All it's the I know I still I'm still confused I still think it's a tyler perry character I

0:05:13 Tom: What is

0:05:14 Eli: The auto ads the auto adds are the tyler parry film of our podcast which is you're not sure who's listening to them you're not sure if anyone's enjoying them she

0:05:22 Thomas: Know she went to jail is that why she went to jail she killed her kids

0:05:24 Eli: Did went to jail yep there was a halloween at one point She's a big fan of Jesus. Anyways, you can make Tyler Perry stop making movies over at patreon.com/dearolddads. That's right. We have a new patron level for just $1 billion an episode. We will stop Tyler Perry from making movies by any means possible.

0:05:39 Thomas: Billion million that wouldn't even do it guy do

0:05:47 Eli: That does include violence. If you give us a billion dollars, we will violently rise up. And not a lot of podcasts are brave enough to say this. Will violently rise up against Tyler Perry and the Madea films for you. So check that out over at patreon.com/dearolddads as we'll threaten Tyler Perry, rip into it.

0:06:07 Tom: We threatened Tyler Perry.

0:06:09 Thomas: Sometimes I just think about like Tyler Perry is somewhere in the biggest mansion fucking ever with a story in his head about how his amazing like artistic ability has resulted in him being sober. You know what I mean? Like so it's like, tell me how how did you like he's fucking I'm too tired. Name of really good director. I don't know.

0:06:22 Eli: Then he nailed it, yeah. Lincoln.

0:06:35 Thomas: So funny.

0:06:35 Eli: Got it in one. Here's the thing. You know how people are like, well, this is the argument that really gets me when it comes to God belief. Like, oh, I think Pascal's wager is pretty undebatable or like Kant's categorical imperative of, you know, the way that leads. For me, it's that I would like there to be a force outside of space, time and morality that could say my podcasts are better than Tyler Perry's movies. Movies that's the most appealing thing about the question of god to me is that I that there would be a third omniscient omnipotent party that does not cure baby cancer or aids or stop violence and rape and genocide but and when I die I will reach a level of consciousness and a boomy voice will be like it was better than medea's spooky halloween or whatever it's called yeah

0:07:14 Thomas: Someone would be like you were right god I relate to that really hard

0:07:28 Tom: You just want a mirror, mirror moment, man.

0:07:28 Eli: Kevin Hart is not funny he's never been funny Dane

0:07:35 Thomas: Also dane cook just try I'm trying to get a white person in there just so that people don't think something I don't

0:07:39 Eli: Cook is great I love him that whole thing about suck my back that's great who takes their shirt off the man's an animal God

0:07:47 Tom: I don't know what that refers to at all and

0:07:52 Thomas: Know what that is oh

0:07:52 Eli: Loves Dane you guys don't know Dane I had Dane cook memorized because I am a white man from upstate New York I have every Dane cook album until 2021 21 memorized just in my heart

0:07:54 Tom: I have no idea no

0:07:56 Thomas: Jesus christ always hated him here's is the thing about being being an asshole like I am I would have occasionally back in college or whatever, I'd have a girl that was kind of into it and she'd be like, yeah, check this out, Dane Cook. And I'd be, like, this sucks. I can't do it. I don't. You know that old joke about how you pretend you're into astrology or whatever?

0:08:21 Thomas: That's not me. Can't do it? I'm, like. No, this is dumb. Not gonna lie. This is fucking real bad. It's stupid.

0:08:21 Eli: Nope yeah you know who has the same curse no illusions no illusions hated adam sandler when everyone else fucking loved adam sandner

0:08:33 Thomas: Okay. Well, Adam Sandler made some good points. The wedding singer is really good. The The Wedding Singer is great. I love The Wedding Singer. I'll always love that movie. The rest of his movies sucked.

0:08:42 Tom: Wedding singer is actually a very fun movie I'm

0:08:39 Eli: All right I'm so terrified to revisit visit anything from my youth at this point like when I do it I have to do it professionally because every time I'm just going to be deeply deeply ashamed of the things I felt and thought.

0:08:56 Thomas: I saw some clip of, you know, an awards show I wouldn't bother watching where the joke was like, oh, Timothee Chalamet. That sounds like, you Adam Sandler doing his voice. And then they go to Adam Sandlar in the crowd. And he's like, Timothée Chalamat. And I was like. Oh, that used to be something.

0:09:10 Tom: Surprised adam sandler was still in like invited to anything are you kidding me did they make him clean up the cups afterwards or what

0:09:12 Thomas: Timothea Chalamot. He's still. No. No, he's

0:09:17 Eli: Sandler's living the best possible life.

0:09:17 Thomas: Like a powerhouse. Yeah, he really is.

0:09:20 Eli: He has so much money and he just walks around and everyone's like, Hey, Adam Sandlar. And he's like hey, how's it going? And they're like, you were like crazy famous at one point. He's like I know. Can you believe that? I'm just like a guy. Why did we like your movies? These no idea no idea I don't remember most of them

0:09:35 Thomas: Very Very weird.

0:09:31 Tom: Do you know who I will say in my opinion at least still holds up is David Cross David Cross's old stand -up comedy bits from like the 90s from like the 2000s is I should say fucking still terrific terrific that guy was like on point and he's still like yeah that guy fucking gets it

0:09:42 Thomas: David Cross is great. Love David Cross. Yeah, he is amazing. Big fan.

0:09:42 Eli: David cross is great yeah they're he also has hated everything forever which was a pretty safe bet right he just hated everything well

0:09:56 Thomas: Well, yeah, but like he there weren't that many comedians at that time that were going to go full like against the Iraq war and all that stuff, right from the get go. You know, like it wasn't, it took a while for that counterculture, but he was on it right away.

0:10:09 Eli: And right out of the largo days too where he would do the like italian sing -along to open like what a fuck have you heard that bit he comes out and sings like the beginning of an italian folk song he's like and then he tries to get a guy in the front to do it and of course he can't follow along and he's, like, fuck no it's abalone you ruined it you ruined it and that's how he opens the set it's amazing so

0:10:34 Tom: I still say like shut up you fucking baby that album that came out every bit every single bit in that album is perfect

0:10:40 Eli: Good the recent one the the ron perlman bit about we should just run by ron porlman and ron purlman just runs over there and beats the shit out of trump and

0:10:52 Thomas: I My favorite joke from back in the day was, you know, I support the war, but I hate the troops. So good.

0:10:57 Eli: It was great that's great or the thing about the automatic scissors and he does the mime and then it hurt ow ow okay I get it now I do I get I get now it's great we

0:11:04 Thomas: And all this is to say, we got a listener question. I don't know.

0:11:13 Eli: Got listener questions so if you're new around these parts first of all sorry for the opening uh my brain does that but most of the time most of time it's funny japes and jokes jokes or and not just us talking about other people's jokes so let's get to those if you have a question for the dads if you would like us to pass summary judgment on the people places and things in your life you can send us an email to the dads at dearolddads .com that email will reach us as soon as our staff is sure that it's not a picture of your genitals and then they'll pass Pass it along to us, and we'll use it. Now, I will remind you, because this the first time we sent out an email, and we still had a misunderstanding. Questions are are to be read out loud on the podcast. If you would like private parenting advice and suggestions from the dads at dearolddads .com, you can go to Patreon, where you can sign up for our $1 billion level. And in

0:11:13 Tom: Question yeah

0:12:15 Eli: Addition to stopping Tyler Perry from making movies, we will personally answer all of your questions for $1 billion cash. Any question you have, I'll just Google stuff for you. That is an open standing. Otherwise, the dads at dear old dads dot com.

0:12:23 Tom: All also want to say like I am I am amazed at the volume of writing we will receive so all right I don't want to short shrift it so we're going to read the question in its entirety I

0:12:35 Thomas: That's good I understand it I

0:12:39 Eli: I like the deets. I like to do this.

0:12:40 Tom: Like the deeds too they're important

0:12:41 Thomas: Think when people get to the point where they want help from us they're like okay I got a lot of pent up here you know like they've got they've Got a lot of energy behind it

0:12:46 Eli: Let's get it all out of there.

0:12:47 Tom: All right my therapist won't return my calls anymore so I'm going to email this to random internet strangers I got

0:12:52 Thomas: What

0:12:52 Eli: So here are the dads that dear old ads that come. We're not random. We're your friends.

0:13:24 Tom: That's too insanely wordy and theoretical to understand, sorry, Thomas, I will break it down for you in story time.

0:13:29 Eli: You idiot.

0:13:30 Tom: Yeah. Like, glad they break it done in storytime. They don't have to call out Thomas. I read that and I was like, I don't understand this question.

0:13:30 Thomas: The fuck is that what what is what is this reputation hey sorry am I the idiot of the show I didn't know that I

0:13:44 Eli: Dumb one, yeah, we try not to say it on the air, but your sweet, dumb idiot, yeah you know, it's like, have you ever seen the meme that people put on the Facebook group where they're like, my face when Thomas talks, and it's just like, right and it is like, it is someone fucking and a cow or something it's a fun bit I had to find a non -problematic way to make a stupid noise just now and I was really proud of what I mustered in the moment I was like how do I communicate stupid without delving into historical problematism so good job me now this person explains before this person explains because we're gonna have to be delicate once this person explain but what I want everyone at home to do so that they don't get mad at for his truth -telling and his honesty and his open heart and his sweet son is I want you to imagine that the partner one has diagnosed themselves with diabetes they believe they have diabetes and as a result because they aren't taking care of their diagnosis because they are doing things there are constant strains in the partnership parenting co -parenting

0:13:46 Thomas: And like now I believe you because I didn'T know I had that reputation so I guess I am I'm really dumb okay yeah was good I think you did a good job I

0:15:02 Eli: Relationship in the family including yeah so

0:15:02 Thomas: That's how my dad did it. Literally what my dad did.

0:15:05 Eli: So let's think about that let's let's all lock into our heads how sympathetic we would be to the person who was pretty sure they had diabetes but they were gonna see what color this foot turned before they bug old doc eason about it all right let's getting into the details here

0:15:20 Thomas: Literally. You know my dad had toes removed, right? I told you that, right. Literally, okay, just making sure. I wanted to see if your joke actually was

0:15:24 Eli: No you told us exactly and dad is the second shitty dad of people in my life who ignored that specific condition until he had toes removed and then turned to everyone else in his life and was like, oh, please wait on me hand and foot for the rest of my life. I have been struck by poor luck and it is up to you to fix the situation.

0:15:39 Thomas: Incredible. Well, be fair to my dad he didn't do that except he obviously would expect my mom to do it but nobody else so yeah uh

0:15:58 Tom: Was your dad not diagnosed well

0:16:00 Thomas: For a long time at that point he had been but like that was why like he could easily be alive today he fucking easily be alive Today if he had just gone to the doctor I

0:16:10 Tom: And wouldn't the world be a better place I'm sorry that's your dad

0:16:12 Thomas: Mean if he was the kind of person who would

0:16:14 Eli: We book of the

0:16:14 Thomas: Have done this yeah if he was the type of person he would have done that then maybe yeah maybe the world could have been a better place but no he wasn't that kind of person so yeah

0:16:21 Tom: And about all the cave journals we would have all the extra cave journals

0:16:25 Thomas: Anyway back to me being the idiot of the show say it real slow for me oh

0:16:35 Tom: Believes he has ADHD, autism, and PTSD. He cannot be diagnosed with any of these or he will lose his job and we need the benefits.

0:16:44 Eli: Is illegal now look I know people do illegal things all the time I'm not pretending I don't live in america I'm now pretending that the disabled don't go through horrible employment discrimination I am saying that the statement that your husband makes that if he is diagnosed he will lose his job is illegal so if there he has been given any indication in any official capacity especially in writing that if he has a condition diagnosed he will be fired that is illegal totally

0:16:44 Thomas: Really is

0:17:20 Tom: Now what if it's military? Really? Really. I didn't know that.

0:17:23 Eli: Fine yeah yeah you're allowed

0:17:27 Tom: I thought, I

0:17:27 Eli: To relieve someone of their duty but you're not allowed to fire them right

0:17:30 Tom: didn'T know that I,

0:17:31 Thomas: Of these things do we think is the problem PTSD like I don't know which of the because PTSD is the only thing that's not like you neurodiversity that I would hope you can't just fire somebody for at least PTSD is a condition wait

0:17:44 Tom: Well, I know that if you're autistic, so cause I was, I was just looking at this. I was was just curious. So like, I know that if you're autistic, that is considered a disqualifying condition for joining the military. Yeah. For joining the military. Well, there's lots of disqualify conditions.

0:17:52 Eli: For joining yeah you

0:17:52 Thomas: For what really what What the fuck? There's absolutely no way that that's, huh?

0:18:00 Eli: Flat -footed IBS yeah there's lots of lots of disqualifying conditions

0:18:04 Tom: Of disqualified conditions.

0:18:06 Thomas: So a lot of people are just not diagnosed autistic and are in the military. Gotcha.

0:18:11 Tom: That's certainly true. So but it does make me wonder and I just genuinely don't know. I'm sure listeners are smarter than I am about this. But like if

0:18:17 Thomas: Sorry. You don't want my autistic son taking apart your fucking missiles and putting them back together. Who is doing all that work? I don't believe you. I don' t believe you!

0:18:25 Eli: % yeah because gonna Minecraft it he's going to do a Minecraft instead that's the problem you

0:18:30 Thomas: Dude, you get him set on that? I don'' t. Okay, sorry. Go ahead.

0:18:33 Eli: Gotta bribe him with Minecraft yeah

0:18:35 Tom: If, all that was the first thing that occurred to me. I thought like, maybe he's in the military. I don't know what the rules are about whether they, because like the other way to like get somebody is just they refuse to re -up somebody. So so like, I'll, let me grant that as a possible truth, right? Okay. Just, just to accept the story on its face, but he does not currently have the skills or motivation to seek other employment. He's very set in his ways and also very good at his job. Losing it would be devastating and compound the problems. I knew this before I married him, but I didn't believe him. Used to mask as well as self -medicate with alcohol, and it wasn't as obvious to me. Now he's sober, and the manifestation of whatever is going on with him is a more severe issue. I am in an advanced degree program, which covers treatment of these disorders, and although I can't and wouldn't diagnose him, I think he's right. Also of note I am a diagnosed neurodivergent person the problem is he isn't trying to understand it more or find ways to accommodate anything or advocate for himself and the daily struggles he faces with executive function emotional regulation and hygiene meanwhile

0:18:49 Thomas: Hi, Gene. Hold

0:19:37 Tom: Yep yep all meanwhile we have four kids under 10 and all of them have been either diagnosed with a neurod divergence or attended treatment for a developmental issue. Two are biologically his. This leaves me with essentially five people to accommodate in every facet of life and walk through emotional regulation skills when they inevitably all argue with each other. He argues with the kids like he is one of them. There are so many specific nitty -gritty daily problems I won't get into it, but here's one perfect example. He will not brush his teeth, so our bedroom is dead. I've stopped reminding him because it makes both of us feel like I'm treating him like a kid, and he won't do it on his own no matter how much I tell him how how it affects me and potentially his friends and co -workers too. His breath is awful. So at this point we're in a standoff where I won't kiss him and he won't brush his teeth and there's no resolution in sight because he isn't doing anything about it. I also have to make sure all four kids brush their teeth and I can't even get them to do it twice a day because I'm the only one supporting that initiative. We can't have hard conversations often because he freezes and can't speak which which never resolves anything. Imagine every day, that hygiene issue, plus 20 more that are clearly expressions of a disability, but I don't want to be his therapist. Could I spend a million hours helping him brainstorm ways to function better? Yes, but I already do that with four kids in full -time school and for my own needs. If

0:20:00 Thomas: God shit oh

0:20:57 Tom: I divorce him, he would get the toddlers 50 -50. And since he doesn't feed them anything but chips or wake them from sleep when they need an adult, they're too young to help themselves. That's not a safe situation for a divorce. Divorce. Am I a jerk for wanting a divorce when all of my frustrations are related to his obvious disabilities? He doesn't want to be this way and tells me this all the time. I'm also resentful because it also feels very misogynistic that even though we both have support needs, it falls on the woman to take care of the kids' support needs as well as the husband's and to put our own needs last because there's literally no one else to do it. Marriage counseling did not work because of his masking. He turned into a different person, saying all the right things, and then not speaking Even in his normal voice. He goes to individual counseling, but I don't have any hope that he is open or honest There would even know what to tell them He also seems to view it as something that if he attends it will help eventually and he just has to show up and do Nothing between the sessions with so many adults now being late diagnosed I have to imagine I'm not the only one dealing with this and I'm curious to hear an outside perspective How much responsibility do we have to accommodate our partners disabilities? Disabilities. Fucking yikes on bikes

0:22:03 Tom: All across the board here.

0:22:03 Thomas: I'm just I'm just I turned on

0:22:06 Eli: Thomas didn't understand most of what you said he he started to play Candy Crush on his phone I'm looking at him now boys

0:22:07 Thomas: I shut down my so there's wait so this is is this this someone who listens to this yeah how do you know this person where are you you seen this letter when you're

0:22:18 Eli: And girls get married Mary? It again. So I wanted to answer this question because I think we are at a weird time in the understanding of mental illness, where a lot of people are understanding that they have undiagnosed mental illness and they don't understand that they still have obligations about that mental illness. So to behavior that you are seeing and receiving is abuse. And the fact that your partner has an undiagnosed or diagnosed mental illness, whether it was diagnosed or not, has nothing to do with whether or not that behavior is abusive. Yeah. You have a partner with a disability, and I have a mental disability, so I speak to this quite a bit, you cannot ask them to see without their glasses. That is unfair. Fair. But you are allowed to tell them you have to wear your glasses every day.

0:23:19 Eli: Right. If I get into the car, which I wear glasses, right? If I go into the cart and I drive my son without my glasses, it doesn't matter whether or not I am willing to accept that I need my glasses. It doesn't that it might make it hard for me when I'm not wearing my glasses to find my glasses when I endanger my children and scare my family with my behavior that does not take care of them or myself, that is abusive. And, you know, I and I haven't heard this word used in the email. And so that's what I would recommend is I would recomend sitting going back to a counselor and explaining that they're, um, masking or that that they're behaving otherwise, but definitely sitting your partner down and using the word abusive and helping them to understand that their behavior isn't just a struggle, isn't just them having a hard day, because those things can also be true. They can also Be having a really hard day with their mental illness. They can Also be having a Really hard day With their disability, and that can be causing them to be abusive, and unless they are doing the work, unless they they are putting on the glasses, all they are doing is abusing. And you have no responsibility to help someone who is abuser. Yeah.

0:23:18 Thomas: Driving the kids yeah

0:24:39 Tom: With that. I want to, I want a season on a few things too. Like, I don't think that the framing of this question is a good framing of this question. And I think that that's super important. So the person who is asking the question, I think is asking this in intensely good faith, but it's entirely the wrong question. We get hung up on this idea that in order to leave a relationship, in order to have negative feelings about a relationship that we must have some moral obligation that hasn't been met in this relationship, right? That there has to be a right person and a wrong person and someone who has been wronged and somebody who is doing the wronging here. I think it is very much not the point of a relationship to do what is the right thing to do in the capital R moralistic sense, but instead to do it is right for your relationship's success. That is the point. The point of the relationship is to behave in ways that maximize the success, happiness, growth, development, and love of that relationship. So you've got somebody asking kind of the wrong question like is it okay if I divorce this person like they're wondering like is it moral like is this a moralistically okay thing to do and I honestly don't think that that's even an appropriate question I think like the real question is like hey this relationship a functioning relationship because if it's not then the answer to should I be in it is always ways? Yeah, probably not. Right. If it cannot be fixed and you don't have to then moralize any longer around it, because that moral, that -making isn't actually in my view, the most important, it's not even like tertiarily important. Like it's very far down the list about, you know, whether or not you should stick around and whether somebody is disabled or not disabled like it honestly doesn't materially affect that calculus in this particular instance right

0:26:35 Tom: It can but in this instance it I don't think that it does

0:26:35 Eli: And think the only reason that we think that it might affect that decision is because we are at the very early phases of understanding and accepting mental disabilities in culture. And so the sort of online discourse is about how you can support the people in your life who deal with those things and some of that conversation is really important and really wonderful but I think it often gets misinterpreted to mean whatever your mentally disabled partner does they get to stuff it in a trash can labeled whatever they've self -diagnosed as and you have to take it that's not supporting someone that's enabling their abuse so

0:27:23 Tom: I do want to focus on something else here because I think that this part is important as a I donno like it's not fixing anything and it's a shaking your finger but maybe it's fucking don't do this for other their people. And don't do this again for this listener right in here. I knew this before I married him, but I didn't believe him.

0:27:43 Thomas: Not only that you had four kids so I and and I'm not trying to put this on you was he brushing his teeth then like did dat start you what changed I misunderstand something how how did

0:27:54 Eli: I think One of the things that the person points out is that he used to self -medicate with alcohol. So maybe that is when, yeah, that allowed him to mask.

0:27:59 Thomas: So maybe that allowed him to brush his teeth What mental illness are we thinking is responsible for that behavior? Is

0:28:06 Eli: So a whole other kettle of fish, which a doctor gets in there and does this diagnosing. And look, people are pretty good at self -diagnosis, right? I think that the pendulum has swung too far the other way. And we sort of have a generation of people who are like, ah, all kids are diagnosed with ADD. They just want to fill them up with drugs so that they sit still in a class. Like I think there's, an I anti -self -diagnosis zeitgeist that is not necessarily useful, but those are a lot of terms to self -diagnoze with. And some of them are really serious medical conditions, right?

0:28:39 Thomas: Yeah.

0:28:39 Eli: We would not have someone be like, yeah, you know, I've been reading a lot about it online and I think my leg is broken, right. I know that seems flippant, right, because I do know that mental Mental illness is different, right? I deal with mental illness. I struggle with mental illness, right, we should take the people who say I have PTSD, ADHD and autism, but I'm not doing anything about it as seriously as we take someone who says my leg is broken, but I am not doing anything about it.

0:29:07 Thomas: Well, not only that. Look, she says that he can't have conversations because he'll freeze. And yet he can perfectly mask and pull off some sort of heist with a therapist. That's just an abuser. That's not someone who has literally abuse.

0:29:19 Eli: That's yeah, this all really sounds like abuse masking as mental illness, this sounds like someone has co has -opted the language of mental illness um shame you into not having these conversations yeah

0:29:25 Thomas: Or both. Like, want to know, the minute you were in that with that counselor and this person starts masking, couldn't you just say, hold on, he's masking, he doesn't brush his teeth, and that would blow the whole think, I would think. I don't know what, I'm just confused. Like, I don' t understand how that is possible.

0:29:47 Tom: You know, I think I think a lot of people go into, you know, to Eli's point before, I think a lot of people go into counseling. They go into understanding from this, like really well intentioned, right headed, emotionally, you know, honest space where like, hey, you've got this disability. I love you. I'm here for you. We want to all decide to live in a different kind of world than the world that previous generations created for people that had mental illness or other similar disabilities and concerns. And so you go in, and I think the amount of grace that we give in these situations can sometimes blind us to our own ability to call call out bad behavior or importantly, our own ability to say, Hey, like no judgment on who you are and what you're going through, but this doesn't work for me. A true thing that I think is difficult for people to say out loud, but like a disability. So let's just, I'll take, I 'LL give everything on its face. Like even the brushing teeth somehow is related to PTSD or, you know, whatever.

0:30:56 Thomas: What?

0:30:56 Tom: I I don't know because I have no genuinely thomas I have no idea everybody in my house has adhd and they fucking brush their teeth you know what I mean like I don' t know

0:30:57 Thomas: I don''t, sure. I don ''t know. Yeah. They might forget, but they're not refusing to.

0:31:08 Tom: And certainly if the consequence of not brushing my teeth is my bedroom dies like what i' m saying is like your heart and your your emotional and physical needs are unimportant to me that's the thing I'm saying but I will also to say, like, and this is kind of a harsh thing to say but I do believe it's true, a disability can make someone bad at being a partner to someone else and that's something we don't want to say out loud because we want to Say, oh isn't everybody deserving of love and it's like, yeah, everybody deserves to be loved, this isn't a matter of deserve, that's language that's actually really bad language that keeps a lot of people locked into relationships with people who will weaponize a disability to behave in abusive shitty ways. You can have a disability that makes you bad at being a partner.

0:32:00 Tom: And that's an okay thing to be like, hey, no judgment. I'm not saying you're a bad person. I'm not saying you don't deserve to be loved, but I'm saying like, you're not a good partner. You're bad at this. I got to go. This is going to hurt me if I stay. And, that's a true and honest thing to do. Yeah

0:32:15 Thomas: So, yeah, practical for real advice time. Start documenting when he's bad with the kids for a while so that you can get a divorce and he doesn't have the kids at all, because that's just obviously what has to happen.

0:32:27 Eli: That's a big part of it yeah

0:32:29 Thomas: There's is insane. I'm sorry. I don't know if this is helpful, listener, but you're in an insane situation and you should stop. I'm sorry. Like, this is this. This is not normal. And sometimes that's important. Like, honestly, I think for a lot of my life, I you didn't understand that my dad wasn't normal. Like you just, they just create this entire, um, You know, especially the, depending on who they are. I don't, I don't want to make this situation to be the same, but depending on what kind of thing we're talking about, if it's abusive in a certain way, they, they make all the rules in a way, like everything kind of revolves around them and you lose track of like how many ways you are, um, them or, or not even, I don't even want to use that language, thing but you're I noticed early on was how, when, there was something about my dad that I would say, I would say it like, oh yeah, no, he's like this. And then the people in the room would be like, what? And I'd be like, no you idiots, you don't get it. Like my dad is like this, That's just how a dad is. And they're like, what are you talking about? And it genuinely was confusing to me. And I was like, well, they just don't understand. Like, they're just, you know. And take

0:33:32 Thomas: Helps at all. Listener, this is not normal. This is not something that should at all be going on even a little bit. This is really bad. Start documenting that they can't take care of the kids and eventually divorce them.

0:33:40 Eli: And and and don't don't necessarily just get out of the relationship for yourself understand that by keeping this person in their children's lives and your children's lives you are just counting down till the time when they start abusing those kids right not just through negligence right when they start treating them badly the way they're treating you badly where they start lashing out at them the way there obviously lashing out at you the way They start punishing the way they start. I mean you already say it. They fight with the kids like they are one of them right which is let's say it abusive behavior. If you are a parent and you you are arguing having or, talking to a child, the way a child talks to you, you're engaged in abuse. And you should just, again, as Thomas said, keep meticulous records of it, write it down, record it when you can. Uh, of the mistakes that people make a lot is because they're not in a one-way record state. They think that like recordings don't matter. Um, but they very much do right. You can still show recordings to people. You could still use recordings, right? Right. There are very specific laws about how recordings can be used in a court of law. But like someone's not safe just because you're not in a one way record state, you know. So capturing that stuff on audio, capturing that step on film when you're able to, if it is safe for you to do so. Highly, highly recommend it because you are going to need this evidence if you want to keep those kids. Or if you wanna make this person commit to getting more

0:34:09 Tom: 100% yep

0:35:07 Eli: Serious help for themselves.

0:35:07 Thomas: Maybe they will. Yeah. I mean, maybe they could be shocked into it I don't know oh

0:35:09 Tom: When I'll say this too from a lot of people also make decisions about what they can and can't do before they talk to an attorney because they've made assumptions about you know truisms that they've absorbed absorbed from other people, from culture, from whatever, but they make a lot of assumptions about what they can and can't accomplish before they talk to an attorney. Oh, you know, this person's going to get 50 -50. You don't know shit until you talk to a attorney. I'll tell you from experience, you would be surprised what you can and what you cannot do. The rules, the laws, the likelihoods, those things are not always as cut and dry. They are not as obvious to you. You may have a lot more rights or responsibilities or less than you think you do, but you don't know shit until you talk to an attorney.

0:35:58 Tom: It's like, you know, it's another form of assumed expertise that gets like built into a lot of this stuff where you talk and you're like, oh, I'm so trapped. And you're like, I, you might not be, you really true. Like you're not really as trapped as you may think that you are.

0:36:17 Eli: And abusers make you think that you're trapped right

0:36:19 Tom: Yeah. Something else in here that I think is like incredibly important to just point out that is also a form of like intense abuse and you should never, ever accept it. And you touched on this earlier, I think Eli, but that, that shit where somebody, when you try to have a serious conversation with them, they freeze up and they can't speak or they won't speak, or they disengage.

0:36:38 Thomas: Was me I know I'm the dumb guy of the show but it was I believe it was actually me

0:36:39 Tom: Age was it you thomas I'm sorry it was I

0:36:44 Eli: His brain literally doesn't work in those moments though he literally we tested him he's medically dead when you argue with him it's true

0:36:46 Tom: Is might be familiar with like the four horsemen like the the four signs of you relationship which if they if if they

0:36:57 Thomas: Of atheism god those fuckers they won't shut up

0:36:58 Eli: Don't you talk about daniel did it that way sweet sweet daniel

0:37:04 Tom: Like the for horsemen of divorce right so when these things appear the likelihood of divorce is imminent and one of them is stonewalling and this I have experienced this myself like this isa way that people who weaponize a certain kind of disability will use stonewall in a way that like is excusable right because like we want to out of generosity we want to excuse like where people are coming from because they're disabled and they've got this thing going on, et cetera, et cetera. But it that's doesn't change that it's stonewalling. It doesn't change that that is

0:37:10 Thomas: Guys I donno yeah yeah yeah

0:37:41 Tom: Stonewalling. And stonewalling is a toxic part of any relationship. If you can't have a serious conversation with the person that you are supposed to live out the rest of your life with, the person who, if you're laying there on a fucking ventilator, will be responsible for the decisions at the end of your days, the person who is supposed to love you for decades and decades if you can't have a hard conversation with that person you already don't have a relationship you're there yes

0:38:10 Thomas: It's a fine line because we've talked talked about how I think I think all three of us have talked about maybe at least I think I remember eli how it's one thing I think you in particular and I think a lot of men need to realize is that being able to win an argument or talk like faster or more calmly or whatever that doesn't mean you're right I think it's important that some partners have a hard time with like an intense kind of argument or that kind of thing but if they're not at least thinking about it and following up and you know like it's It's one thing to not be able to, you know, exactly speak very well in the moment. But it's another if you're just not even attempting until the conversation is done and then it's gone, you know, because you've done nothing. It's a different thing.

0:38:52 Tom: It's totally fine to return to the conversation the next day when the emotions aren't as high or to write it out yeah

0:38:58 Eli: Or write an email or yeah text it up that kind of thing no one's saying that you have to speak right then and there you're not a compelled witness on the stand but stonewalling is where you shut down the conversation entirely and your excuses mental illness inability emotionally being too overwhelmed etc etc right that is abuse And the the sort of metaphor I like to use there that I really think is worth considering for this listener and for everybody, which is that partners who hit really feel like they can't help but hit. Right. So people who physically abuse their partners. Right? When you look into this, when you speak to them, when they speak about their experience, genuinely feel as though they did not make the decision to physically harm their partner. Right are so overwhelmed by emotion they're so overwhelmed by anger they are dealing with mental illness a lot of the time that it is out of their control to not hit their partner and we as a society understand that that is still abuse right that if you actually cared about your partner and that was a part of your mental illness you would check yourself into inpatient care right like if tomorrow me and Anna were talking and she said something I didn't like and I backhanded her I mean first of all you

0:40:19 Eli: Wouldn't have to worry about me getting any help or care right but just assuming Anna isn't burying me in the backyard while whistling loudly right if that happened to me I would immediately drive myself to the hospital and not leave that hospital until I was able to control control myself, right? Just as I would do while endangering anyone else. That is how you are being endangered emotionally. And whatever your partner is dealing with, I have all the sympathy in the world for it. All the sympathy in the World for people with ADHD, T-Dog over here, all the HD in the worlds makes him so beautiful and stupid, right autism. My boy got the tip.

0:40:19 Thomas: Can you switch it? So it's since she just clocks you. Oh,

0:41:01 Eli: He's risen with.

0:41:01 Thomas: Hold on. Don't discount the trauma. Come on. Get that. Don't short shrift. To well

0:41:05 Eli: My son risen with the tism, Tom PTSD. He doesn't know it, but he does. You just can't put a turtle in front of him that's he's a man of simple rules right these are all conditions we have nothing but empathy for and I think this listener has that empathy as well right which is clouding the issue you are not dealing with someone struggling with athd autism and ptsd you are dealing with an abuser who happens to have those medical conditions maybe sorry

0:41:12 Tom: -ish hundred percent a hundred percent yeah right know I want to oh shoot where's my oh yeah I want to I want a relay a quick story just that I

0:41:42 Eli: I waved a turtle puppet in front while I was talking just now is

0:41:44 Tom: Got distracted I to I I want to relay a quick story because I I resonate with that like really hard what you were saying like you have an obligation um that exists kind of like no matter what it is that you're going through a few years back maybe three years ago two years ago I can't recall um had a moment I had like two moments in like two weeks where I very uncharacteristically lost my temper I don't lose my temper very often at all in my life I don't lose my temper very often at all in my life and

0:42:11 Eli: This the ben and jerry's incident? This is the barricade.

0:42:16 Thomas: When he sees a turtle he blacks out so he doesn't remember remember he

0:42:19 Eli: Blugs out with rage. It happens every time.

0:42:21 Thomas: Does yeah he doesn't remember the people he killed the screams

0:42:24 Tom: I I immediately made a doctor's appointment like that I had an obligation in that moment to be like hey I'm fucking first of all unequivocally sorry second I will fix it third here's what I'm doing to fix it went and saw doctor, discovered I had something to fix, fixed it, and then moved on. Like this guy in this example is intentionally not fixing shit. I don't care who you are or what your disabilities are or where you're at. Your obligation, if you want to stay partnered, ifyou want to take care of people that depend on you for love and stability, your is to be stable. Your first First obligation. You don't get to ask people to be partnered with you or to be in a family with you where they have to wake up with you and allow yourself instability that you're not working on. You don'T get to do it. If you're unstable, your obligation, your, your and personal and interrelational obligation is to first build stability. You've got to do that. Is somebody who refuses to do the work like dude just sucks like that's just a shit dude like you can take all the rest of the disability stuff and the mental illness stuff put it in a bucket and set it aside it actually doesn't matter that dude now just sucks he's just Just a guy who sucks.

0:43:41 Thomas: I think that covers it I'm

0:43:43 Eli: Like that we ended this very serious advice with, well, we slap our thighs and just stand up from the...

0:43:50 Thomas: Guys can you think of any more ways to say this person partner sucks

0:43:53 Eli: Well, sure you can't, Thomas, you big dummy.

0:43:56 Thomas: That's true you can we can let eli take a crack at it what

0:44:07 Eli: We go what type of music does a baseball player love swing that's

0:44:15 Tom: I want out. I want to get out of the end of the show. That's it. I'm calling it.

0:44:17 Thomas: You boy well

0:44:24 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, tom smith who also wrote and recorded the intro music which is used with his permission this podcast is a production of daddy issues llc copyright 2022 all rights reserved

0:45:05 Eli: Hart is not funny

0:45:08 Tom: Me a dick I will suck that dick rather than not wash my ass no

0:45:13 Eli: Before we go... One second. I

0:45:22 Thomas: So you have his jokes and a big like a

0:45:25 Eli: Haven't been a big thing. Never.

0:45:26 Thomas: Big likesuit k if we go one of those old -fashioned like circus like trunks

0:45:29 Eli: Gentlemen

0:45:29 Tom: I didn't think we were going to do prop jokes for the podcast. That's an unusual choice.

0:45:31 Thomas: What

0:45:31 Eli: Before we go what type of music I

0:45:40 Thomas: Is he have a he has a ventriloquist dummy on him right now you

0:45:45 Eli: Do gentlemen before we go what