DOD184: Justin Baldoni's TED Talk, Part 2

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dan's, the podcast that's not telling bald-faced lies. I didn't write anything.

0:00:35 Eli: Hey.

0:00:35 Tom: I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:35 Eli: Hello.

0:00:40 Thomas: Podcast that's Trying to make Eli quit the business, everybody.

0:00:41 Eli: Yeah. Now.

0:00:45 Tom: He's been on the cusp of quitting, and we are just nudging him harder and harder to the precipice.

0:00:48 Thomas: And here's and here's the thing, we want him to stay, but we're, we're no, not Old Yeller, we're White Fanging him, you know, because, like, it's just, we want heM. But it's just like, he needs, yeah, for himself. Yeah.

0:00:56 Eli: Exactly. Yeah. He needs to be free. I need to Go. I need to be this is a. It's a real It's real hatchet situation going on here now. I would also like to thank all the people, you know, we are recording these episodes right, right after the other, but there's been a week between you hearing them, and I'd just like to thank everyone who came out not in support of me in the least following week to say, "No, Trump supporters do not have inner lives. They are probably philosophical zombies." Like, that means a lot. Cause you know, I doubt myself in those moments when I'm being, to put it, uh, uh. Gang banked by these two with their insistence that your Trump voting dad has an inner life and doubts and thoughts and fears? Uh, I don't think so. The people stand united and you are filthy monogos. You know who you are.

0:01:01 Thomas: Go on. Get go on get Eli.

0:01:49 Thomas: I don't, I, when you put it that way, I don't. I think.

0:01:51 Eli: That's right.

0:01:52 Thomas: Yeah, I think they have a limited internal experience.

0:01:52 Eli: But know the only things worse than Thomas's virile and nonstop commitment to monogamy. Why it is the auto ads, the auto ends fucking your wife every day, all day. That is what auto ads are like, but you can fuck Tom's wife If you give us money over at patreon.com forward slash Dear Old Dads.

0:02:03 Thomas: What?

0:02:12 Tom: Wait no certainly not the case the indecent

0:02:18 Thomas: I don't know what's happening.

0:02:23 Eli: We have a new patron level. Check it out. patreon.com/dearolddads. It's mostly going for a witness protection for me. Yes. Exactly.

0:02:32 Tom: Proposal version of our patreon yeah Yeah.

0:02:33 Thomas: Yeah.

0:02:36 Eli: No. If you want to fuck me and Thomas's wife, it's quite a few dollars down in the decent proposal level of patronage. That's a fine enough proposal. Check it. Check it it out, extended versions of every show, lots of fun parenting stories, bonus episodes, all available at patreon.com/dearolddads. I've

0:02:57 Thomas: That's a real movie that happened, isn't it? I've never seen it. Is that a real?

0:03:00 Tom: Indecent proposal.

0:02:59 Eli: Indecent proposal is the funniest. I was rip into it. Indecent Disposal is the funniest movie when you're a non -monago I cannot describe

0:03:01 Thomas: Oh, rip into it. Yeah. I just that's what that was. My thought is like they need to remake that for this age. And then what would the dollar amount be? Be. $47. I mean, it's like,

0:03:09 Eli: What Oh, I wasn't even thinking about that. I, I was picturing the screaming fight I would have with my wife if she came up to ask me instead of fucking right then and there.

0:03:17 Tom: Health insurance.

0:03:18 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:03:26 Eli: I'd be like, what are you doing?

0:03:26 Thomas: Cashing the check immediately.

0:03:27 Eli: What if his boner went down? Get the fuck Do they have a faster elevator than this one? Oh no, I love my job. No, I live my life. I love 9 to 5. I love working at Wendy's. It's great. I the button more than one time doesn't matter, but I'm doing it anyways.

0:03:28 Thomas: Yeah, if he changed his mind.

0:03:43 Eli: God damn it. If he found someone else's wife down there, I will not speak to you for a year. Tom, you would love that movie It's about how magic your dick is or something, I don't know when we left off we were taking in the wisdom of David Balcadouni That guy

0:03:41 Tom: OK,

0:03:52 Thomas: So true. Of Eli's personal hell. Yeah it's Justin Baldani. It's fine. Let's He just get right back into it. Here we go.

0:04:07 Eli: Can we jump back in?

0:04:10 Clip: So some of the ways that I've been practicing breaking free of this behavior are by creating experiences that force me to be vulnerable. So if there's something I'm experiencing shame around in my life, I practice diving straight into it, no matter how scary it is,

0:04:26 Tom: I got to pause it already. I got a pause. I get a pause already because I've I.

0:04:28 Thomas: Like sexually harassing

0:04:29 Eli: No, I've read the text messages He does do that

0:04:30 Thomas: Women.

0:04:32 Tom: I think things are really fucked up in this part, and I guess I kind of get why he's doing it from an audience perspective, but I also think it's a giant miss. I think it is fucking really weird that all, all of his messaging around vulnerability and connection is based around shame. Based around feeling shame and all these negative feelings that he has nowhere to put in his life with the men in his wife. Trying to draw this distinction earlier on that soft emotions are vulnerable emotions, are weak emotions, are feminine emotions, but joy, love, accomplishment, these are also ways to build connection with other people and specifically person to person, but he focuses only and disappointment. That's a shit way to do it. Like, we're also not allowed, like, in that social, like, hierarchy, patriarchal bullshit, right? Like, men are supposed to be like shamed, and it's supposed to be gay if you love your wife, right? We've talked about that on this show, so, like, expressions of joy, like, and love are also, don't have a place to put those in this lens.

0:04:52 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah. It's a good point. Yeah, right.

0:05:41 Thomas: He does use that later, but yeah, no, I totally get it. Not only that, Tom, I think that's a great point now that you say that. I also think just in the ways we encourage other men, like, another component of that, like, it is kind of weird to think about, like, complimenting other dudes in certain ways that I think women do all, all the time to each other, you know? I do, I do think that's another non -shame thing thing to look at. It's a good point you bring up, boy.

0:05:41 Tom: Yeah. Yeah.

0:06:05 Tom: The second thing he starts to do is he starts to talk about what he's going to do with his own vulnerability. And I think that that's also like the wrong place to start if you really actually want to fix this problem. Because if I want to fixed the problem of like having a place and building better connections, the best way for me to do that is to be a space for other people to come to, not to demand that other people accept my vulnerability and my, cause like if if we are assuming the premise here that guys are generally a little uncomfortable with this and I am one of those guys who's trying to break that, but maybe you're not, the best way for me to do that is not to insist that you accept my vulnerability, it's to accept yours. It's, he's got it backwards because he's a fucking narcissist.

0:06:48 Thomas: Yeah. I You know, I don't want to do a whole lot of tea leaf reading of, like, oh, the signs, the signs, I think this is a sign. I think, because I think a lot of the conflict, not to get too deep in it, but a lot of what went down with Blake Lively and his reaction to it is explained by the fact that he doesn't understand that some people just don't want to fucking hear it, dude. Like, some people just don't want to hear your most intimate thoughts and experiences in workplace situations that you think you're doing this, like, you know, potentially to, I guess if we were to take the, like, the most generous terms, uh, might think he's just, oh, I'm a little bit of an oversharer, but, but you're not taking the signal that someone doesn't want that in that situation at that time and I think that

0:07:33 Eli: This picture of my dick? Yeah, what can I say?

0:07:34 Thomas: Really I overshare.

0:07:37 Eli: Overshare No

0:07:37 Thomas: Yeah, and think that this is a sign of that. I think that you've touched on it. This whole thing is very narcissistic at its core.

0:07:45 Tom: Is And like, if you are going to listen to this for good advice, like, I do want to say, like, I, I do think, cause I've tried to practice this, I really do. You think that the best way to create space for you to build deep connections with other men is to reach out and allow them to be like, make sure that they know that, like, there's a place in you that they can access, not just be like, yeah, here's what I'm ashamed of, man. Like, that's fucking weird.

0:08:10 Thomas: Also, here's my dick. I send that to, sorry, thought that was a way.

0:08:13 Eli: Exactly,

0:08:12 Tom: I said, here is what I am ashamed of. It's the same thing. Tomato, tomato.

0:08:15 Eli: It's The same, same image. It

0:08:15 Tom: Yeah.

0:08:16 Thomas: Tom said, here'S what I'm ashamed of. He sent my dick back to me.

0:08:20 Tom: Just You should be neither.

0:08:20 Eli: Should be. Is that hard? I

0:08:25 Clip: And sometimes even publicly. Because then in doing so, I take away its power. And my display of vulnerability can, in some cases, give other men permission to do the same.

0:08:33 Thomas: I just don't even know what he's talking about, really. Yeah.

0:08:39 Tom: He, yeah.

0:08:40 Clip: As an example, A little while ago I was wrestling with an issue in my life that I knew I needed to talk to my guy friends about. But I was so paralyzed by fear they would judge me and see me as weak and I would lose my standing as a leader.

0:08:40 Thomas: Okay. What's an example, I

0:08:47 Eli: Sexually harassed, break lively at work and what

0:08:56 Thomas: The stupidest fucking thing.

0:08:57 Eli: Probably consider Justin Baltoni as my leader.

0:09:00 Thomas: Yeah, one of my friends said that they wouldn't be my friend anymore. Yeah.

0:09:05 Tom: I think that it is a problem in male relationships, that male relationships tend to have, like, a competitive hierarchical element to them.

0:09:13 Thomas: Why does there have to be a leader in a relationship that's

0:09:16 Tom: Like, you know, here's something I was thinking of, and I want to know if this, like, if this hits with you guys, because do think that in, in most friendships someone's in charge, most male-to-male friendships someone's in charge. And so here's how I was thinking about this, and, like, I, I want to know if this, like, works for you, but way to think about this for me, and I thought about this today, was I, with all of my, with all my guy friends, if I'm hanging out one-to-one, I can tell you who's driving, literally Driving the car. It never changes.

It's never Eli. It doesn't bounce back and forth. It's almost always the same unless there's some, you know, like for it or what, you know, the circumstances warranted. So I'll give you an example: I get together with Cecil, I never drive. Cecil 100 % drives, and in our friendship I would say that he is, if there's a hierarchy that, like, in our friendship, yes, 100 %, I would see Cecil is, like, in that hierarchy one step above where I'm at in that same. It's not necessarily that we're not equals, but there's, I don't know, there is that there sense there, and that's

0:09:32 Thomas: Interesting. Oh, Wow. It's not Eli. Interesting. Interesting.

0:10:19 Tom: Not the case with any of my other friendships, and all of my other friendships we get in the car, I drive. It's something, it's like really telling to me, and I'm curious if that resonates for you guys at all, or if that's just a weird factor.

0:10:20 Thomas: That That's So Interesting. That's Just want to psychoanalyze Cecil, but I won't. I won't. I will. I think, I think a lot of these dynamics in general have a lot to do with more a masculinity component, but there's also another component, which is just who's more, more enthusiastic about friendship, the, and doing stuff in general. It's like the supply and demand of who more time for this and that creates those incentives. But that's a really interesting point you bring up, Tom. I'm trying to think if I have any of that in my own life, but I think for me, it's a little situational because I'm so practical that I'm like, well, if this person knows more about this thing, they're in charge. If I know more, I'm in charge, like I take that very practical standpoint. So it could change depending on what the thing is. But yeah, Yeah, what do you think about that, Eli? Does that resonate with you? No one will let you drive forever?

0:11:11 Eli: I mean, So So here's the thing, there's, there's a weird thing in my male friendships, which is most of the men I know wouldn't let me be in charge, so I have to secretly be in charge, right? So I have to be like, ah, I just had an idea, I'm so stupid, but what if I drove my car, because it turns out It turns up that I fell down the stairs, I went poopy in my pants, so, so we should probably take my car, and then they're like, yeah, okay, but only because you went poopy your pants, those because otherwise I have to deal with male egos and that makes me want to suck their dicks until they shut up. So yeah.

0:11:27 Tom: Okay. Yeah. That's Right.

0:11:51 Thomas: Yeah, oh my god, yes. Yep.

0:11:52 Tom: Yeah. So Yeah.

0:11:56 Thomas: I was also going to say, like, I'm just not going to have a stupid battle about a thing. So I'll just be like, yeah, fucking whatever. Do whatever.

0:12:02 Eli: You want to shut a man up, suck his dick. You ever suck a bro's dick who won't stop fucking diminishing you? He'll shut right. The fuck up.

0:12:08 Thomas: That's vulnerability, Justin Baldoni. That's being brave. Rave. Come on. We

0:12:12 Eli: Okay. Back to Justin Baldoni's deepest secrets. It's gay stuff. Yeah.

0:12:16 Tom: Yeah,

0:12:17 Thomas: No, we got, we got to play though that we didn't get through it for everybody.

0:12:17 Eli: Okay. Play the whole clip. Thank you.

0:12:20 Tom: It's 100 % gay stuff.

0:12:21 Clip: Judge me and see me as weak and I would lose my standing as a leader. Knew I had to take them out of town on a three-day guys trip. Just to open up and guess what it wasn't

0:12:22 Eli: Yes.

0:12:35 Thomas: And I'm so sorry, it shows the gayest picture I've ever seen in my life.

0:12:39 Eli: They're lying on their backs in the sun Oh, you gotta watch it.

0:12:41 Tom: Oh, I just listened to this. I didn't watch this. Damn it.

0:12:41 Thomas: Guy shirtless It You need to see it. Like I, he's, don't trying to make us think it's gay stuff, right? Which is great. You should just say it. I hope it is the best thing he's ever done. Hold

0:12:49 Eli: It's gotta be gay stuff. And that's fine. That's fine. But

0:12:52 Clip: Open up and guess what it wasn't until the end of third day that I finally found the strength to talk to them about what I was going through. But when I did, something amazing happened.

0:13:02 Tom: Like after?

0:13:05 Thomas: Yeah.

0:13:05 Clip: I realized that I wasn't alone.

0:13:07 Thomas: All wanted to fuck each other.

0:13:09 Eli: Want to talk about this so much because I want you to just picture, right? There's so many things. First of all, the, I think it's gay stuff too, and I want to say that if you have friends that are homophobic and are going to judge you for being gay, or at least you think they might judge you for not being gay, for being gay, taking them to a secluded location makes that so much worse. I've already, already unpacked my suitcase into this bedroom where there are two queen beds right next to each other, and now you want to tell me about sometimes you have intense dreams about you and Phil that's all in red light?

Like, I don't know what to do with that, Justin. Also, in the more practical sense, imagine at the end of a trip, we're all packing up, you're doing that Airbnb thing where the head of the company is looking at the book that they've left, and they're like, Like, fuck, okay, we gotta strip all the beds and put them in the washing machine, but not start it. Okay, can you do, thank you so much. Also, guys, I meant to tell you, um, I love cock. I just love it. Num, num, num.

0:13:10 Thomas: What is this?

0:14:11 Thomas: This possibly be? I don't.

0:14:13 Eli: Our Uber's here. I love men.

0:14:15 Tom: Cause he specifically says he it's something he has to talk to his guy friends about.

0:14:18 Thomas: Yeah, he needs to.

0:14:20 Tom: Like, Like, I was trying to think cause like I have good friends of mine that are, that are men.

0:14:22 Thomas: There's nothing I need to talk to my guy friends.

0:14:24 Tom: And I've never been like I ,I can't, can't tell my, my female friends, the same story. I can tell the female friends the same issue I've got. Like I can think of anything like that. I really weird.

0:14:34 Thomas: Yeah, I don't know. It feels made up to me, but also it's, it's a little too specific to be made up, though. Like, it, it feels like you'd make up something that wasn't so insane. Like, But

0:14:34 Tom: Right?

0:14:44 Tom: I think it's made up because It's weird to me that he doesn't just say what the fuck it is, right? Like, here's this whole, my fucking TED Talk on vulnerability, and I'm gonna hide this thing from you.

0:14:53 Thomas: I Maybe It's just overflown, but if you, this is like psychopathic, if you literally arrange the entire trip for this purpose and then at the, the third day or whatever you're like, "Hey, I've been feeling a little depressed," like, that's insane. I'm sorry, that's insane. I

0:14:54 Tom: Yeah.

0:15:06 Tom: I, I imagine what this, like, fucking unbelievable secret that only men are allowed to know about in his life, and him three days of his fucking, like, like, fly-fishing trip or whatever, to fucking tell people about this. What?

0:15:20 Eli: Okay, but here, now, gentlemen, I actually found a great reason to do this. Know how we talked about the, where it was like, that's him, right? Right. And would you run the guy over or not? Right. That's the secret that you would reveal after three days. You'd be like, I know you guys keep asking why I go out to the hot tub first. Okay. The ice chest that I won't let us put beers in. There's a guy in there. I killed him and

0:15:32 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:15:32 Tom: Yeah, yeah. Yes!

0:15:45 Tom: It has to be something like that!

0:15:45 Thomas: Yeah, Yeah, And

0:15:47 Eli: Been chopping up him. So he's in very small pieces.

0:15:49 Thomas: Female friends aren't strong enough to lift the body with me, so I need my guy friends

0:15:52 Eli: Yeah, exactly. Is that I need the three of you're like, look, what I'm essentially asking you to do is eat two bowls of chili each, okay? That's all I'm really asking here. You said you were hungry, Chris. You said we were hungry and you wanted to wait and you said you wanted to eat right now and I'm offering chili.

0:16:05 Thomas: My Women friends don't eat as much as you guys, I need, it's it's only the bros.

0:16:13 Eli: Lady friends are going to

0:16:14 Thomas: I just need, need my dudes to help, and then, and I love to, the heartwarming tale of, oh, actually they all had the same problem, the, the result is I wasn't alone.

0:16:14 Eli: Ask so many questions. It's very mild.

0:16:25 Thomas: They also brought ice chests, and we, because

0:16:24 Tom: We also have chili. We horrible bosses this? I think we horrible bossed this.

0:16:30 Eli: Yeah. Another thing, and another reason to save it for the end, because it's gay stuff. Tough, right? You're like, oh, I'm gay. All three of your hot bros also are gay, but now this Airbnb, which you could have been making great, you, oh, I am sorry, we went parasailing instead of coming down each other's throats, what a waste of a fucking weekend, man. I can go parasailing with my dad.

0:16:38 Thomas: Bodies will go bad, a

0:16:55 Eli: You know what I can't do, bury myself and my dad to the hilt, Justin. Anyways, our Uber's here, let's get on the fucking plane. I'm so mad at you the whole ride

0:16:54 Thomas: Waste of a cleaning fee. Oh So good. Oh, this is insane though, this is absolutely insane. The

0:17:15 Clip: It also been struggling, and as soon as I found the strengths and the courage to share my shame, it was gone. Now

0:17:23 Thomas: Erection. I don't. I

0:17:23 Tom: I've literally never had an experience either where it's like, as soon as I told somebody that it's something and it's just gone, that's a bad expectation too for people, like, if you're setting expectations for people to, like, confide and, like, the confiding will mean for you as a it doesn't make it go away, man now just somebody else knows about it

0:17:28 Thomas: Know, it does nothing. That's unless it is a body they made into, into chili, Tom.

0:17:43 Tom: That's gotta be it, that's it you a murder this is a murder we

0:17:43 Eli: That's right thank you oh

0:17:44 Thomas: I think Eli has a point, or Knowing this friend group, it genuinely, like, guys, I just need to sexually harass women. They're like, bro, us too. We were hoping you'd say that shit. Nice.

0:17:54 Tom: Are also, uh do you have a list

0:17:57 Eli: Nice

0:17:58 Tom: I brought a list, yeah

0:17:58 Eli: Do you have a like a PR firm that specializes in this so that if there were ever records of you hiring them, it would be just very clear

0:18:02 Tom: This

0:17:59 Thomas: Do you want Yeah, do you wanna try to build your reputation as a male feminist so that no one will ever suspect that, yeah, they're Like, let's do it for the next five years. I

0:18:07 Eli: Yeah no

0:18:12 Clip: I've learned over time that if I want to practice vulnerability, then I need to myself a system of accountability. So I've been really blessed as an actor, I've built a really wonderful fan base

0:18:23 Eli: You haven't you're on Jane the Virgin, man, because

0:18:25 Clip: Really really sweet and engaged, and so I decided to use my social platform as kind of this Trojan horse wherein I could create a daily practice of authenticity and vulnerability. The

0:18:37 Thomas: Think this is the most interesting part of the, not interesting Ted. Oh

0:18:39 Tom: Was Interesting, but

0:18:41 Clip: Response has been incredible, it's been affirming, it's been heartwarming, I get tons of love and press and positive messages daily, but it's all from a certain demographic: women. This is real. Why are only women following me? Where are the men? About a year ago, I posted this photo. Now afterwards, I was scrolling through some of the comments and I noticed that one of one, my female fans had tagged her boyfriend in the picture. And her boyfriend responded by saying, "Please stop tagging me in gay shit. Thanks."

0:18:57 Tom: I don't know if I'm attractive or not.

0:19:05 Eli: You're hot. We're there, waiting for you to stop wasting our time at the Airbnb. No.

0:19:29 Clip: As if being gay makes you less of a man, right? So I

0:19:34 Thomas: Doesn't

0:19:34 Eli: What my friends at the Airbnb told me. What

0:19:34 Thomas: Even that also doesn't fit with, with what, because as if loving your wife is gay is what it would beat, anyway.

0:19:36 Tom: That's not the point. Like, that's not the point that the commenter was making.

0:19:45 Tom: Yes. It's weird that he misses that entirely.

0:19:45 Thomas: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. This

0:19:45 Clip: Took a deep breath, and I responded. I said very politely that I was just curious, because I'm on an exploration of masculinity, and I wanted to know why my love for my wife qualified as gay shit, and I said honestly I just wanted to learn.

0:20:07 Thomas: Is so, I have to read these messages, I have to reading, but

0:20:09 Clip: Now He immediately wrote me back. I thought he was going to go off on me, but instead he apologized. He told me how growing up, public displays of affection were looked down on. He taught me that he was wrestling and struggling with his ego and how much he loved his girlfriend and how thankful he was for her, for her patience, and then a few weeks later, he messaged me again. This time he sent me a photo of him on one knee proposing. He

0:20:34 Thomas: My god. I have read you this, this is so great. What is that? What, what is, what?

0:20:47 Eli: Is that supposed to be, this

0:20:48 Thomas: Yeah. It would only make sense if he were proposing to a guy. That would be the only, it would be The Only Way.

0:20:52 Eli: Is an Archie Bunker thing.

0:20:55 Tom: Like, what he's trying to say is this guy came around and now is okay, OK, with public displays of affection to women. Like, I think that's what he's trying to say. But like, because he's so badly misinterpreted the first point, like thinks he's bookending something, but he's fucking not bookending it because he did such a bad job with the front end.

0:21:00 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, Guys, I'm you, so sorry. I, I, uh, I have to read you these messages. This is either fake or it's also too insane. Like this would be hard to fit. Like I, is this this, is pre -chat GPT. So now I'm a little worried. Okay, so gonna read the whole Justin's message, he asks like, oh, it's gay shit, I just want to sincerely ask, and then he has a sentence that says, you're, without an E, you are clearly ripped and capital C, confident. You're clearly ripped and confident, but I'm hoping there's a part of you that doesn't think love or expression of it makes something gay or shit. And then, so there's that, just want to learn, God bless. But then this guy writes, but it's amazing. Okay, hey man, I, this is, oh my god, okay, I so uncomfortable reading this because it's so fucking, okay, hey man, I appreciate you reaching out in such a rational and respectful manner, quite the contrary to my immature response in your comments, though this is like us doing My Immortal. We're doing the, the

0:21:16 Eli: Read us the messages. No,

0:22:07 Thomas: Yeah, though I usually wouldn't engage in a multi-faceted and nuanced discussion, your inquiry is pure and it is fair. Grew

0:22:07 Tom: This never happened. No, this was outsourced to Bangalore, India. No, are they going to do that if they do the needful? Thank you very much. Kindly.

0:22:16 Eli: Yeah. This is again, no he thesaurus.

0:22:18 Thomas: Up in a Middle Eastern it's

0:22:23 Tom: This is if this is directly from my group in India.

0:22:24 Thomas: This is so insane. Grew up, there's nothing, just grew up, skip something, grew up in Middle Eastern family where feelings, quote and quote, love and displays of affinity, affinity, and emotion were mocked. I grew up with two brothers, so never truly developed an understanding of what it meant to articulate in words how I felt inside. My soon -to -be Yeah.

0:22:44 Tom: I would agree with that.

0:22:46 Thomas: My soon-to-be fiance is full of passion and full of love. She enjoys displaying it and effectuating it. Our relationship has developed over the years, okay. She is slowly helping me get over the hurdle of preconceived notions against showing and acting out our love. When she tagged me, when she tagged me in your post, I revered back, reverted, type, reverted back to my normal ways of scoffing at public articulation of one's inherently personal feelings and relations conversations. However, it's not gay shit. I didn't mean it that way, and I apologize if that offended you. You could easily have been offended and commented back, but your alternative measure to understand through dialogue is shocking as it is inspiring. Thanks for reaching out. I hope this gives you a somewhat brief, hold, albeit personal, personal inflection from a stranger in your comments. I'm a new fan, all the best with you and your wife. Yeah.

0:23:03 Eli: .com and You're telling me that guy has an inner life? You Look me in my digital eyes right now and tell me that guy has an inner life, an innered life.

0:23:48 Thomas: Here's so bad that I don't think you could fake this, like it's actually so bad, not

0:24:00 Eli: There's no way. He's

0:24:01 Tom: That was written by a man in a call center. Are you kidding me?

0:24:03 Eli: Not sentient. That's not a sentient being in the uncanny vanity of language, language oh, I believe I believe 100, it happened, 100 Justin Baldoni and this guy are both completely non-sentient philosophical zombies, and you assholes are like, no, you gotta find out how to reach them, there's no way to reach that, you can't reach

0:24:04 Thomas: So bad, how could you write that? That's so What do you think? Did that definitely, definitely happened. Dot go, Reddit, r slash, that definitely happened. That would be so hard to fake. Actually Yeah. It's

0:24:20 Tom: No.

0:24:35 Eli: It it's not real. Convince a tree to not vote for Jill Stein. You can't fucking do it.

0:24:35 Thomas: So stupid. The Writing is so fucking stupid. Oh

0:24:43 Eli: Those people aren't real. It's not called the mind -chaming -ing of Dresden, guys.

0:24:43 Tom: Look, I generally agree with that take I generally agree with that take. Was that was written in a call center, that was written a call center, that's what it was, it was written in a call center, he outsourced, he's like, all right, give me, uh, words, uh, response that looks like this, I'll give you three dollars and

0:24:56 Thomas: Boy, do I will you know I actually think it's Real, I actually, I think it is real. I think what it is is a guy, I was going back and forth, but now that I think about it, it's a guy on Instagram who then got a message from a famous actor and, and is then like, "Oh shit," wants to make a good impression, so gets out, you know, the dictionary and tries to write what he thinks is like a smart message, and it has all this, the wording of the dumbest fucking shit ever. Well,

0:25:26 Eli: Yes,

0:25:27 Tom: If English is his 17th language, maybe.

0:25:29 Thomas: It might be. He said he grew up in Middle Eastern family And

0:25:30 Tom: Yeah that's what I mean, like, yeah, maybe, maybe no

0:25:34 Thomas: So Maybe this is real, but like, now I'm with Eli, like, if that's how human beings talk and think, I'm not one of them, like I, you know what I mean, that level of message

0:25:42 Eli: Get these messages, I get this messages all the time. When was back on social media trying to change hearts and minds, someone would be like, fuck these slur, and I'd be like hey man, that sucks, don't say that. And then their next message would be a nine -tweet thread. I began as a lad in Entgol, Missouri. The truest of ways. I have this fucking pseudo -poetry, goddamn, dollar -a -dozen -word vomit.

0:26:03 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, it's so funny. Yep. It's another part of toxic masculinity, by the way, in a weird way that, you know, how men always do that. Like when they get in an argument online, they try to do that like, well, therefore, I think that we shall.

0:26:24 Eli: You guys been on the subreddit IamVerySmart? It's literally just Those responses. It's Literally People being like Uh, your response shows a clinging to emotionality, obviously one that I am very

0:26:27 Tom: Yes.

0:26:27 Thomas: No, I want this so badly, though. Oh, I won it. Oh. Oh! Can we do this for the bonus? This month's bonus. Can can we just read a bunch of those, please? That sounds so

0:26:37 Eli: Yes. I'll just read the I will read R I am very smart or things that were in Eli's Twitter inbox and you have to guess the same picture. I

0:26:40 Thomas: Nice. Yeah. Oh God. It's so good. But

0:26:51 Clip: He said was, thank you, I've been this guy, I get it, see publicly he was just playing his role, rejecting the feminine, right, but secretly he was waiting for permission to express himself, to be seen, to be heard, and all needed was another man holding I was holding him accountable and creating a safe space for him to feel, and the transformation was instant.

0:26:57 Eli: Told people their shit was gay can

0:27:13 Thomas: Sure.

0:27:14 Clip: I loved this experience, because it showed me that transformation is possible even over direct messages.

0:27:19 Eli: I talk about this for a second. I know, it's not about manness, but I, it's a thing that bothers me. It's, you guys remember during Covid when Sarah Silverman got some horrible tweet from a guy, and then she went back through his Twitter and found that he had, like, a bad back, and then they paid, she got her for his followers to pay for his back surgery and

0:27:20 Tom: Yeah. No.

0:27:38 Thomas: Yeah。 I kind of remember that. I kind remember that yeah.

0:27:41 Tom: But that's kind of amazing.

0:27:43 Eli: And everyone was like, it's so hopeful, and he was like, you're the first person, and what, and what we were supposed to learn is that, like, folk are just folk and once the pain stops, then, but, but what about all the people who don't do shitty shit? Like, what if instead of wasting our empathy on these so-called converted monsters we just spent our time and energy on the people who never are victimizers, are never abusers, are never shitty, right? The hundreds of women and queer people who have been nothing but victims their whole life without having to be taught empathy from a famous person. What if instead we cut up Sarah Silverman's Twitter friend into little bitty pieces and fed him to the starving children of the slums of Bali like there are so so many things we could do that aren't wasting our empathy on these entirely privileged first world sacks of human shit.

Here's, here's what I'll challenge you to do, okay, someone, because we got a lot of sleuths, go find this guy. Is he a doctor? Does he save lives? Or, or does, is he fucking in between jobs right now after he dumped his balls in the warming chili at the First Wednesdays he worked at? Like, I want to know. Show me the thing that these people do that's worth anything. Show me the, the actual value these people demonstrate after we so-called save, that he married a woman so that he can fuck a kid into her and then treat that kid horribly, let alone if that kid dares to be gay or anything other than exactly his image, that Justin Baltoni's gotta sweep in once a week and

0:27:48 Thomas: Yeah yeah.

0:28:22 Thomas: And made make a whole lot of chili. Yeah totally. Totally, yeah.

0:29:29 Thomas: Yeah, that's

0:29:29 Eli: Be like, hey, here, you're calling your kid the f -slur again, man.

0:29:30 Thomas: The part of it. Yeah. I fully

0:29:32 Eli: I hate it.

0:29:32 Thomas: Believe that this inspiring story can happen if a famous person makes them feel special for a moment, but like, that's, that's the fucking problem. We don't expect that from you, Black people and queer people and whatever. We don't expect that they're gonna get a call from the fucking you or like the, the, you know, some celebrity, and then, then they'll feel okay. It's, it's only the people who we decide are so valuable and so important that they can be pieces of shit until we give them that extra special attention. And then they're on, then and only then there'll be decent people. And isn't that heartwarming? Couldn't agree more, Eli.

0:30:10 Clip: So I wanted to figure out how I could reach more men, but of course, none of them were following me.

0:30:14 Thomas: Just, just DM them all day. I

0:30:17 Clip: So I tried an experiment. I started posting more stereotypically masculine things, like my challenging workouts, my meal plans, my journey to heal my body after an injury, and guess what happened? Men started to write me, and

0:30:27 Thomas: Think this is interesting.

0:30:37 Eli: Think disguising the fact that you became as gymfluencer as part of your feminist journey is so fucking hack shit. Would be like if I was like, hey, everybody, if you've been listening to our shows for a while, since like 2015, you remember when I lost my fucking mind on Twitter and turned into a gibbering mentally ill mess for a year and a half? I was actually doing that to warn you all about the dangers of the social internet.

0:31:04 Thomas: Yeah.

0:31:04 Eli: You're welcome, everybody. I didn't tweet at Richard Carrier I wanted to kill myself. I was teaching you all a lesson. What's this behind your ear?

0:31:05 Thomas: Because Yeah.

0:31:15 Eli: An apple from the teacher. I'm the teacher? Told you to put some workout videos on your Instagram.

0:31:18 Tom: Yeah. From

0:31:21 Thomas: Yeah. Some PR firm, maybe the same one that assassinated, like, Lively's character, was like, hey, men are terrible, and that's like a demographic that you could unlock potentially there. So here are the things you could post that would get you more engagement from men. And then he, yeah. And then repackaged it as this feminist experiment that he's doing.

0:31:40 Tom: That's a fucking thousand percent, that's what happened. I do think it's fucking interesting that it works. The

0:31:45 Thomas: Yeah, I think it is interesting. Yeah.

0:31:47 Tom: Part that's interesting, right, is that, like, all this other stuff he's putting out is not attracting, like, any male followers, and, like, why are we following all this stuff? Like, that's the part to me that's interesting, because that's reflective of this, like, male culture, the things that we seek out, the fucking flame that the stupid moths run to to burn themselves to death. That's the part that's worth exploring.

0:31:57 Thomas: Yeah, absolutely.

0:32:10 Tom: I think, like

0:32:11 Thomas: I, you know, it's another thing that you guys can feel free to say, or you like, feel free to say is really obvious and we all know and whatever. But one was a genuine, interesting insight that I'd never thought about back in, I uh, don't know, probably around this time or or whatever, where, someone, um, it was something I saw where someone it was about, um sexualizing women superheroes or whatever. And they're like, Oh, but look at the men. Like they do that for you. You know, like the big buff, whatever. And and this woman pointed out like, that's also for men. Like the big boss superhero is also for me. And look, if you look at like comic books that women actually like and look at the superheroes, it's they're not that they're like a different, it was really interesting. And then there's also that post that comes up from time to time where it's like Hugh Jackman was in, I think it's Hugh Jackmen was simultaneously in like men's fitness and he's super, buff and it's a workout picture and then women's something. And it's, like, this nice

0:32:16 Eli: Thank you.

0:32:59 Eli: Yeah.

0:32:59 Thomas: Clean cut. Yeah, people, but it was something, I think it had to be something more geared.

0:32:59 Eli: And he's in like a blue sweater, a baby blue sweater. Yeah.

0:33:05 Thomas: It was more geared toward women than that, but sure. The maybe point I think that is really interesting. Thought it was specifically a female magazine focus thing for the point, but maybe it wasn't. But anyway, but I thought that was interesting. I thought there was interesting to consider that like the whole buff superhero, whatever, is also the like male gaze. Like that's also us in control of the media. Oh, yeah.

0:33:07 Eli: Women love people idiots.

0:33:11 Tom: But

0:33:27 Eli: Do fact from that little study, do you know which superhero women actually find most attractive? It's Spider -Man. Yeah.

0:33:32 Thomas: You've said this before. Spider-Man. Yeah, you said that. I only know that because you told us before, but yeah. See, I'm good.

0:33:36 Eli: We fucking love the shit out of Spider -Man.

0:33:38 Thomas: I'm a teacher's pet. I listen to you, Eli.

0:33:39 Tom: I think is what I think is interesting about that is that I know for certain that men are convinced that that's not true. Men are convinced, and like they cannot be disabused of this notion. They are convinced, convinced that they know what women want so much that when women say, "That's not what I want," they will argue. I've seen this. They'll argue with women that.

0:33:45 Thomas: Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah! No, you do want it. That's why there's dick pics, Tom! Universally!

0:34:07 Tom: The idea that, like, that men are struggling with, like, body dysmorphia and all this stuff around, like, you know, these images of, like, jacked and buff and all this stuff, and they are convincing themselves that that's the standard that they have to, like, work toward in order to be successful with women, all of that is a fucking Ouroboros of toxic masculine insanity.

0:34:24 Eli: It's The meme of the boot on the face, and then it's just your hand inside the boot. That's men.

0:34:29 Tom: Yes. It's fucking nuts.

0:34:28 Thomas: Yeah. You know what's interesting is women do the same thing, though. Fashion Fashion is not for men like no, no normal dudes care about any of that stuff, too, which is really interesting.

0:34:39 Tom: Aren't buying fucking L magazine or fucking Vogue or whatever, right? It

0:34:42 Thomas: No, and we don't like care about most of the considerations of that world of the fashion world of like super duper skinny, you all that stuff is societal pressure. But it's not like actually what men like is the weird thing. And I think it's like a mirror of this. Why is that? Like, what the fuck?

0:34:58 Tom: Is, and we can't seem to like get out of our own fucking way on that stuff. Well, I think, like, with the male stuff, I, it goes back to that competitive hierarchy element that

0:35:02 Thomas: Yeah, think It is with women, too. Actually, I might be both now that I think about it.

0:35:11 Tom: I only have experience on the one side, but I don't think you're wrong. I think it's animal.

0:35:18 Thomas: I'm sorry. And this is just like I'm thinking of this in real time.

0:35:18 Tom: No, No, No, no, it's okay.

0:35:21 Thomas: Maybe it's just kind of the nature of like, OK, the things that we do to try to impress women. We're not going to like. Yeah, absolutely not. I had to sheepishly confess to Lydia that I was a podcaster after I'd already roped her in. You know, like I did, yeah.

0:35:28 Eli: Podcast Did She know that's where she was headed?

0:35:37 Thomas: No.

0:35:37 Eli: You're Welcome, Lydia. Tom.

0:35:37 Thomas: Yeah, she had no idea. Maybe. It's that, like, the things we, like, we don't talk to women about the ways we try to get women, because we're trying to get men, you know what I mean? Like, that's not who. So it's like each, it's men or whether it's women, I think, competing with each other to impress, like, mates or whatever is what we do. And we don't really have that conversation with whatever gender we're attracted with. Yeah. It's interesting.

0:35:58 Tom: 100%. 100%. Like, if we're best mates were all, like competing for a scarce resource, right? Right. Like everybody wants like the the sort of mates at the top of this, like profile of like the best, most attractive mates. So we're all competing for that. Well, we're not competing with women for that, we are competing with other men for that So we are building.

0:36:19 Eli: I've got some bad news for you that's

0:36:21 Thomas: Yeah.

0:36:21 Tom: But I do think that that's I do think that ultimately is like a big factor in what drives it for sure. Yeah. I did get into the conversation with somebody online and I didn't look too deep into it, but you linked to a couple of different studies which I glanced over, don't want to pretend an expertise I don't have, that that say that, like, yeah, I mean, overall women are more attractive to muscular, like, physique like it's not that's also not not true, right? It is not untrue that James Baldoni James Baldoni is not not walking around with that body, having a tough time with the ladies, right?

0:36:24 Thomas: Really interesting.

0:36:38 Eli: But

0:36:45 Thomas: Yeah. But it's more the extreme amount of it. Yeah, no. Yeah yeah.

0:36:57 Tom: That's just also not true. It's not like every body type is like, oh, just there's no difference. Like there's a fucking difference and there are preferences that broadly demographically select for something here.

0:37:08 Thomas: But I think that's sort of an all things equal situation too. Like I don't know what the studies were, but it would be interesting to try to pit things against each other. Like if it was, you know, a super muscle bound dude, but you not the most sensitive versus like, yeah, he only has like one or two podcasts like a fucking noob.

0:37:21 Tom: Yeah, but nobody, but like in terms of just,

0:37:20 Eli: No one listens to his podcast yeah Exactly, like A coward.

0:37:27 Thomas: Yeah.

0:37:27 Tom: But just in terms of like what people find physically attractive.

0:37:28 Eli: Yeah.

0:37:31 Thomas: Yeah. But the only reason I said that is I think the point is it's in the hierarchy of things that women find attractive. It's, it's definitely not where men think it is, like it's not in the top like three

0:37:31 Tom: Yeah, right, yeah. Yeah, like Men have convinced themselves that, like, unless you're six foot six and fucking like got a fucking straight eight pack, you're just trash and then nobody's gonna fuck you and like nobody's going to love you and no one's going to sleep with you

0:37:41 Thomas: Yeah oh my god oh

0:37:47 Eli: Yes well to call out anyone on this podcast, but I know lots of really hot guys who don't know they're hot, and it's very funny because they'll be getting attention for being hot and they'll be like, "Hey, how's it going? They're really interested in podcasting, just love when I read the Bible, I guess, I guess" she wants me to read it to her over the phone or something, how

0:38:08 Thomas: The opposite of who I am cannot be, yeah, no, but like, for real, I think it is funny that the opposite is true, because the bar is so low, on we've talked about before, if you are at all not a piece of shit, like, on a dating app, you, like, can make it work, you know, it's like the bar is actually so low on men, yeah well I know, that's, well, that's a different situation if you okay, if you actually get to interact with a woman, that, like, if you're at all just not a piece of shit, it's to any of your single or whatever, like, seeking people, female friends about what it's like trying to date, and it's, it's like, oh, actually it's really easy to stand out from that

0:38:28 Eli: Come, I got no messages on OkCupid, then, Thomas huh my card fan was exquisite, I

0:38:53 Clip: Then out of the blue, for the first time in my entire career, a male fitness magazine called me, and

0:38:59 Thomas: You hate when that happens, yeah

0:39:00 Clip: They said they wanted to honor me as one of their game changers is

0:39:01 Tom: I'm

0:39:05 Eli: I out my workout videos, and then a fitness magazine called me, if it's a fitness magazine, you fucking idiot to Fitness which is what the magazine was about Jesus

0:39:09 Clip: That really game-changing, or is it just conforming and see, that's the problem it's totally cool for men to follow me when I talk about guy stuff and I conform to gender norms, but if I talk about how much I love my wife or my daughter or my 10 day old son, how I believe that marriage is challenging but beautiful, or how as a man I struggle with body dysmorphia or if I promote gender equality, then only the women show up where the men so men men

0:39:17 Thomas: That's that red flag a little bit yeah

0:39:47 Eli: Well we're already benefiting from the

0:39:48 Clip: Men man I

0:39:48 Eli: Non-equality man that's why they're not oh this is good, guys. This is good. He's reaching the Trump supporters here. He is reaching them, guys, this is good! This is what you want, right? This is fucking what you fucking want.

0:39:55 Thomas: So funny yeah

0:40:01 Clip: Understand growing

0:39:58 Tom: Dude you're too cynical, you're too cynical Eli

0:40:03 Clip: Up we tend to challenge each other, we got to be the toughest the strongest the bravest men that we can be and for many of us, myself included, our identities are wrapped up and whether or not at the end of the day we feel like we're man enough, but

0:40:05 Eli: Archie Bunker is in his chair right now. I'm learning. I'm learnin', Edith. Oh, that's true of me. I am Archie Bunker. It's true.

0:40:19 Clip: I got a challenge for

0:40:20 Eli: I said the N -word five minutes ago. It's real. I've learned it.

0:40:20 Clip: All the guys because men love

0:40:22 Tom: I

0:40:23 Thomas: Hold on you ready for this, Eli? Listen up to

0:40:23 Clip: Challenges I challenge you to see if you can use the same qualities that you feel make you a man to go deeper into yourself, your strength, your bravery, your toughness. Can we redefine what those mean and use them to explore our hearts? Are you brave enough to

0:40:46 Thomas: Take three men on a road trip and fuck them, yeah

0:40:48 Clip: Be vulnerable to

0:40:50 Tom: Hate his delivery here so much why

0:40:52 Clip: Reach out to another man when you need help to dive head first into your shame? Are you strong enough to be sensitive, to cry, whether you are hurting or you're happy even if it makes you look weak are

0:40:54 Eli: Should have worked with his coach on this one.

0:40:58 Tom: Shame again

0:41:04 Eli: Hey, pause. Can I say something bold and brave? And I know I've said a lot of brave things these last is the problem with society that people aren't emotional enough? Because whenever I hear that it's okay to cry thing, I know that it's a response to that, like, toughen up and lock down thing, but whenever anyone's like, "Are you brave enough to cry?" I've never been like, "You know what this situation could use? Someone hysterically weeping."

0:41:09 Thomas: Guess if you're man enough to, yeah uh yeah no

0:41:11 Tom: Yeah yeah

0:41:34 Thomas: I, I think with men this is a valid message

0:41:36 Eli: I think someone should lose control of their emotions, that's what I think I think there's too much Cecil

0:41:38 Thomas: Nah well well that's the thing, it's not, that's a good point, the emotion of anger isn't counted as an emotion, and it's true that we don't need more emotion because men already just display anger all the time and it doesn't get counted as quote-unquote emotional, but I do think, like, for example, there was that fucking comedian who went on, I think it was on Joe Rogan recently, and because, uh, Selena Gomez or whatever was crying, he's saying she needs to be deported because, like, oh, you know, just because she's crying over people. I think that toxic display of...

0:42:09 Eli: And again, I agree with that, I agree with, I'm saying we, I understand the, like, toxic destruction of other people's emotions, good, and I understand that that's why it's okay to cry is response to, I think, are you man enough to cry, I don't think we need crying I think it should be, are you men enough, because, because the implication of you man enough to cry is you're going to cry and then you're going to have a healthy emotional response. But crying is an unhealthy emotional response, I think it should be, are you man enough to have normal emotions appropriate to the situation?

0:42:09 Thomas: Yeah.

0:42:26 Thomas: What?

0:42:45 Tom: What if those normal emotions are to cry, like you, you, like, yeah, like

0:42:45 Thomas: Okay, Yeah.

0:42:47 Eli: Sure, yeah, there are situations where crying is useful, they are way rare. I

0:42:52 Tom: Know, like I think like crying from joy is a thing like I think I don know, I'm

0:42:57 Thomas: Well, and it's not about it being useful necessarily. It's also about just allowing for a certain kind of expression that men don't allow for at all.

0:43:05 Eli: Feel like we got plenty of expression.

0:43:05 Tom: Like I think that there's a you're I think you're you you're making a utility argument because like right now, and I totally get it, like right now, like that is like you are laser fucking focused on utility, and I would I would agree with you, but I would I would offer, like, you can't continue to socialize an entire half of the population to be stoic and then also ask for their empathy.

0:43:07 Thomas: No.

0:43:28 Eli: No, I agree.

0:43:28 Thomas: Yeah.

0:43:29 Tom: So we have to, we haveと say, all right, if stoicism is no longer, if we're going to break out of the value of stoicism, the advantage, the utility of that is greater empathy. So like if, if, we get some fucking hysterical weeping, you know, and it's like not actually productive, that is going to be a side effect.

But the broader, the broader good that we get from that is deeper empathy, because, like, you know, like your point you were making before, and I get it, and, like, I didn't even contribute to it because I kind of, I want to give you that moment, but, like, you, all those people that, like, you mentioned before, that have been, like, they haven't done anything shitty and they've been fucking victimized their whole lives.

They've been victimized because, like, the world is full of shitty dudes and we haven't fixed the shitty dude problem. So even if the only people in the equation that I care about and I want to help are, like, women and, you know, all these other, like, these people have been victimized, the way to do it isn't, like, reaching out to women. The way to do it is to say, "Hey, next generation of people, this is an entirely unacceptable way for you to live." And you don't have to. And it feels bad. And that's how the next woman doesn't get raped.

0:43:29 Eli: I, feels like such a weird focus to make it about his emotions again. You know what I'm saying? Cause like, I absolutely agree with you on the empathy stuff. I a hundred percent agree on the side. That's like, it's okay to cry because it's not about squishing down those emotions. Right. But the notion of like, are you man enough to lose control of your emotions? Right. Because when I look around and I see the problem of men, the problem of men is them losing control of their emotions. And crying is just, yeah,

0:45:05 Thomas: You think crying is losing control of your emotions? I don't think so. So I think it's an expression of the emotion of sadness or, or

0:45:12 Tom: Joy. I mean, I've cried from both.

0:45:14 Eli: Or joy, yeah?

0:45:14 Thomas: Sure.

0:45:15 Tom: Like I went to a I went to a wake last week. So I had a friend of mine whose wife died in childbirth. And I went through the wake for his wife last week and

0:45:21 Thomas: Jesus. A

0:45:16 Eli: Pixar movie? We see a real pussy about it? Got him!

0:45:25 Tom: When I saw him and, like, we, we, like, connected, and I gave him a hug. We both got a little misty. We both had tears in our eyes. You know As we had, like, a moment and connected with one another over his shared grief. I didn't lose control of my emotions. That was exactly the emotion I wanted to express. I was in control of my emotions. It was just an appropriate time for us to have a connection there, and I think that was good. I think that was a good thing. I think I would agree with you, Eli, is that I do agree that men have a problem of over being overly emotional. The problem is the only way they can fucking squirt it out is through anger. So

0:45:36 Thomas: Little misty.

0:46:06 Thomas: Yeah.

0:46:07 Tom: Like I, if, if the only acceptable, the only tool that I have when I get fucking bottled up and I don't know, like, how to emote because I've just, like, fucking not figured that out for 46 years, if the only way I know how to get any kind of release is anger, then I'm gonna blow up in these really dangerous and unconstructive and non-utilitarian ways, and I'm going to hurt other people. But if I have other outlets to, to release, like, that pent-up emotional space, that's safer for everybody and it's better for me. But, like, to the utility argument, it's just, it's safer, it's more constructive, because now I can get back to doing, like, good work. Does that make any sense? I

0:46:46 Eli: Nah, maybe. Here's the thing I'll say. Here's the thing I'll say.

0:46:51 Tom: Love this show. Yeah.

0:46:52 Eli: Tell me what you think about this. I know So many shitty men willing to bawl for themselves. Just, I think about Mormon confession. You guys any watch any Mormin confession videos? It's like a joke in Mormons is that, like, your shitty homophobic dad gets up there and when it's time for his testimony, he's like, I think there's this special reserved form of male crying that

0:46:48 Thomas: Oh

0:46:54 Tom: Yeah. No.

0:47:04 Thomas: No.

0:47:05 Tom: What? Yeah.

0:47:18 Thomas: Yeah.

0:47:18 Tom: No. Performative male crying. A hundred percent. Dude.

0:47:19 Thomas: Yeah. That's true. Sure. Sure.

0:47:21 Eli: Is part of the toxicity, and I think it comes from a culture that's like, it's okay to cry, and it's like, it's okay to cry if it's, like, a healthy expression of emotion.

0:47:22 Tom: Yes. No. No. Okay, I gotta stop you. I think it comes from exactly the opposite. I think the performative male crying is useful because it's, it's a way to perform, even though I'm a guy and I'm, I'm trying to hold it in, I'm try to hold the little, and then I'm, and that is supposed to get more attention because I'm living in a world where that now all of a sudden it's the Jordan Peterson thing, right? It's performative bullshit fake crying. The reason that that works is

0:47:36 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah.

0:47:58 Eli: Yes, I think he's really crying. I think he's deeply mentally ill.

0:48:05 Thomas: I should agree with that. Yeah.

0:48:07 Tom: The reason it works is because it exists in a structure where it is not allowed, and so it gets more attention than it deserves. No.

0:48:14 Eli: That's fair. That's

0:48:15 Thomas: Yeah. I just want to say that I don't think crying is losing control any more than, like, laughing is losing control of your happiness. I don't think it's necessarily losing control to be expressing it, but it could be. I don't know if you're the fucking, the jokester, as Arlo calls him

0:48:15 Eli: True. Yeah.

0:48:32 Eli: Been talking to someone and they start crying and then you have to pause the whole conversation and pretend they're not crying.

0:48:41 Tom: Wait, what?

0:48:42 Eli: Yeah. That's a lot of my life is just, well, I have a four-year-old, so that's definitely a lot. But a lot of my long life has just been, I'm talking to someone and then they start to cry and I'm like, oh, okay. So now the conversation's about the fact that you're crying and they're like, no. And I'm like, yeah, no, that's what we're talking about now. What we're talking about now is that you're crying every

0:48:48 Tom: Look,

0:48:54 Thomas: What Okay, could

0:49:04 Tom: Will say, I think crying can be an incredibly manipulative thing to do. I have Like, I think that that Jordan Peterson performative crying is incredibly manipulative. I've known, uh, that have used crying specifically to avoid difficult conversations or to avoid taking responsibility for things. I, I had a relationship with somebody that did that all the time. It was just the waterworks would turn on as soon as there was a conflict, and that was a way to end the conflict, crying. And I'm not saying that's exclusive to women, but I'm saying, like, crying can be an incredibly manipulative thing to do. Like, just like any other emotional outburst though. There are times anger is an appropriate expression and it's a good, decent motivating. Like, it's not a bad, it's not a de facto bad emotion either, but.

0:49:07 Thomas: Be sure Yeah.

0:49:48 Eli: Time I witness crying in the healthiest environment, I'm sort of like, okay, that's okay for now, but I would like it to stop as soon as possible.

0:49:55 Tom: I'm uncomfortable

0:49:56 Thomas: Yeah. It's uncomfortable.

0:49:56 Tom: Around it.

0:49:56 Eli: Yeah.

0:49:57 Thomas: Yeah. But

0:49:57 Tom: I don't love it. Yeah. Right.

0:49:59 Eli: All

0:50:00 Clip: You confident enough to listen to the women in your life to

0:50:04 Thomas: Be a game changer in a magazine that's

0:50:06 Clip: Hear their ideas and their solutions, to hold their anguish and actually believe them, even if what they're saying is against you, and Will you be man enough to stand up to other men when you hear locker room talk, when you hear stories of sexual harassment, when you hear your boys talking about grabbing ass or getting her drunk? Will you, you actually stand up and do something so that one day we don't have to live in a world where a woman has to risk everything and come forward to say the words, "Me too."

0:50:14 Thomas: Critical quote there.

0:50:39 Eli: I think it's interesting that he chose to hold up an applause sign there. Um, Tom I know you only listen to it, but he's holding a big applause sign that says "applause" on it. I wish he didn't do the whole thing.

0:50:43 Tom: Actually I actually wish that he didn't do that entire last part. I, I really do. Like I like I, I know, I know, it's, but, like, you, I keep trying to come back to the idea of who's the audience and who, what are we trying to, like, say to them?

0:51:01 Eli: Archie Bunker. You already said. I

0:51:02 Tom: I hear what he's saying, but like, again, I feel like that part of it is performing to his actual audience, which is women. If he's performing this talk to men, while I think that that message he just gave was important, it's it's not really the thrust of like, look, tell me why it's going to matter to me, right? If I'm trying to sell you a car, I'm not trying to sell you a car cause your wife's going to like it. I'm trying to sell you a car because I want you to buy the car.

0:51:09 Thomas: It is Yeah. Yeah.

0:51:27 Tom: I want you to feel like you'll like it, but

0:51:27 Thomas: He hasn't made a single Tim the Tool Man Taylor grunting sound, and I don't listen to anything unless I hear. Yeah.

0:51:37 Tom: But you know what I mean? Like this whole, that whole piece feels so signally. It's such a fucking signal.

0:51:39 Thomas: No. Totally agreed that is. You nailed it. That is to his audience of women that he's going for. Turns

0:51:46 Tom: Yeah.

0:51:47 Clip: I've unconsciously been hurting the women in my life. And it's ugly.

0:51:54 Thomas: Out I've been sexually harassing them.

0:51:56 Eli: Love

0:51:56 Tom: I, like, why can't, like, being a better man also just make me a better man, full stop, and not have to do with anyone else?

0:52:02 Clip: My wife told me that I had been acting in a certain way that hurt her and not correcting it.

0:52:11 Clip: Basically, sometimes when she would go to speak, at home or in public, I would just cut her off mid -sentence and finish her thought for her.

0:52:21 Eli: This so much, because this is just him repeating the things she said without understanding it at all. She would talk and then I would talk, but it wasn't the talking turn. It's It's awful. It's off, awful. It, awful. And

0:52:28 Tom: This

0:52:33 Clip: It's awful. The The worst part was that I was completely unaware when I was doing it. It was unconscious. So here I am doing my part, trying to be a feminist, amplifying the voices of women around the world, and yet at home, I am using my louder voice to silence the woman I love the most. So I had to ask myself a tough question.

0:52:57 Tom: Whole part I hate this whole part so much I

0:53:01 Eli: Did she just say?

0:53:01 Thomas: Yeah.

0:53:01 Clip: Am I man enough to just shut the hell up and listen?

0:53:08 Tom: Hate. God,

0:53:10 Thomas: Yeah.

0:53:10 Eli: Of getting your feminism directly from a Tumblr post than, hey, what if it was time for me to shut the fuck up? Am I right? Am I right?"

0:53:19 Thomas: He says to the audience that's

0:53:21 Eli: He says, painting the good one on his shirt while leering and dancing as they throw throw pennies at his feet.

0:53:22 Thomas: Applauding for him. Yeah.

0:53:31 Tom: Like I don't know why we can't have a conversation about, like, trying to connect with other men and be a good man and be vulnerable without that having to have something to do with feminism. Like, it can just be because it's a good and better and more authentic way for you to live your life. It doesn't have to connect into what he did a half-assed job of connecting into at the end. And it also feels like, when he gives his example, it feels like going on an interview and being like, "So, tell me your weaknesses?"

0:53:32 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:54:00 Tom: "Oh, sometimes I'm too early for work." Like, the example he came up with was like, "Sometimes I finish my wife's sentences." Like, get the fuck out of here. Yeah fucking a

0:54:09 Eli: Too sympathetic to her needs. Well, tom, I think what you need is a little lesson in shutting up and listening. Oh, allyship. I did it. I did. It's about how many turns to talk we get. And I want you to have left turns. I did that. Am I right, everybody? Who's drinking tonight? Night. Anyone's birthday tonight? Happy birthday to you. I want to be dead. I don't want to be here anymore. I was born too late or too early or something. Yep.

0:54:41 Tom: God I has fucking lost it God I think you were just born, and that's the problem. Eli, I know you, man.

0:55:05 Eli: I Gentlemen, before we go, what do you call a deer with, with no eyes? No idea.

0:55:13 Eli: But gentlemen, what do you call a deer with no eyes and no legs? Still no idea.

0:55:21 Tom: All right, I actually, like that last one that last one was good, that last one was good.

0:55:22 Thomas: That's good. That's great. That's it. That

0:55:22 Eli: Hey!

0:55:31 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith who also wrote and recorded the intro music which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of daddy issues llc copyright 2022 all rights reserved

0:56:12 Thomas: I don't listen to anything unless I hear yeah

0:56:16 Eli: I am sorry we went parasailing instead of coming down each other's throats. What a waste of a fucking weekend, man. I

0:56:24 Tom: It's 100% gay stuff.

0:56:26 Thomas: Your alternative measure to understand through dialogue is shocking as it is inspiring.

0:56:32 Eli: I'm essentially asking you to do is eat two bowls of chili each, okay?

0:56:36 Tom: Just trash and then nobody's gonna fuck you and like nobody's going to love you and no one's going to sleep with you

0:56:41 Thomas: If that's how human beings talk and think I'm not one of them like

0:56:47 Eli: That's true of me. I am Archie Bunker. It's true. I said the N-word five minutes ago. It's real. I've learned it.

0:56:53 Thomas: A whole lot of chili.