DOD167: Surgeon General Verifies This Is, in Fact, Way Too Effing Hard

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad. That's my thing. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can. Complete and utter dependence. I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired.

0:00:22 Clip: Telling is the only part of being a father that I enjoy.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's recommended by the Surgeon General, but not the good one. I'm Tom Curry. I've joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:35 Thomas: Not a good one yeah

0:00:39 Eli: Are you saying there's a dark universe surgeon general top what's the well

0:00:41 Thomas: Is there like another Surgeon General oh

0:00:42 Tom: Well, there's the Florida Surgeon General. The

0:00:44 Thomas: Well that's always gonna be yeah they

0:00:46 Eli: All the states technically have them yeah

0:00:48 Tom: That's the anti-vax fucking nut job. You're familiar with that guy, right? He's the Surgeon General that aggressively doesn't seem to understand science or medicine.

0:00:52 Eli: Right

0:00:56 Thomas: Shouldn't get to be called the same thing it should be like surgeon lieutenant surgeon officer surgeons

0:00:59 Tom: They sure they sure shouldn't thomas right yeah they should they should like how many surgeon generals can we can it be a surgeon corporal you know surgeon

0:01:08 Thomas: General yeah that's what I'm saying they should be that or the surgeon general should be the surgeon president then yeah

0:01:10 Tom: Major

0:01:10 Eli: It's weird existing in America because the governorship system is so bad, we need it to get to live in a blue state. So there's this weird thing where you're like, hey, Ron DeSantis shouldn't get to be Ron DeSantis. There shouldn't be anything about the power structure of how politics works that Ron DeSantis should exist. And then they're like, Like, yeah, but do you want the average of America to make up how New Yorkers live? And I'm like, nope, not that either. I would like fascism, but I'm in charge, is what I realized as I was saying that, is I just don't want the other side to have any power.

0:01:43 Thomas: I'm getting there yeah I've started to get there oh

0:01:50 Tom: I don't know when this episode's gonna air but we might already we might be there when this goes out Yeah.

0:01:53 Eli: We might have a little fascism.

0:01:53 Thomas: Fuck actually yeah this this will be, I think, after the election, oh my god, okay, well, everyone, we don't know, yeah, forgive us for our ignorance, we Don't, then

0:01:57 Tom: So that's, that's exciting. Hey,

0:01:55 Eli: Not my sides. Yeah. Fun. How are you guys feeling post-election? Let's all act how we think we'll feel after the election.

0:02:06 Tom: Let's not do that. Let's not do that, yeah.

0:02:08 Thomas: There's just an empty chair where I am, yeah. Ten tiny Tim's crutch, and just like, wow, that's where, yeah

0:02:14 Eli: I remember this for 2016 when I just like I was so excited and positive it's so funny the number one feedback I get from listeners aside from can I touch you your sexual energy has overwhelmed me is yeah I I listened back but I got to around 2016 it was too hard to hear and I'm like yeah I fucking get it baby it's too bad I

0:02:19 Thomas: That was rough, yeah yeah, Yeah. So

0:02:38 Tom: Too you guys didn't do a live stream on election night in 2016, so you could actually have people watch you die inside, like hundreds of people watch you die inside.

0:02:42 Eli: Watched it yeah I watched some I'm a, God damn it.

0:02:49 Tom: We'll be doing that again, that'll be great, we'll do do another another election night live stream well

0:02:54 Thomas: I, I, you know, what's funny is I stopped doing that.

0:02:55 Eli: don'T DO THAT!

0:02:56 Thomas: Yeah, I stopped doing it literally because of 2016.

0:02:57 Tom: I we've always done them no

0:02:59 Thomas: Well, I think we did some, but like, I just don't, I'm not doing that anymore. It's too hard. I can't handle it.

0:03:04 Eli: I can't do any of it. I

0:03:06 Tom: We've done every midterm and every you know general election since 2014 maybe 2012 we've been doing this for fucking too long though yeah been a long time oh

0:03:18 Eli: A like, people need us to do, not to peel back the curtain too hard, but people need us to provide a service, and I can'T be a human being experiencing that, and also be doing my job. Because I remember in 2016, you guys were like, you should come on, and I was like, nah, yes

0:03:36 Thomas: I think you, you did, you came on, uh, the post thing with me, didn't you like the next day

0:03:42 Eli: We did a rant a post -election rant

0:03:44 Thomas: That was great everyone loved that so much so the way I've solved that eli is I just my whole my life is my work and my work is my life and then yeah but

0:03:48 Tom: It was yeah

0:03:53 Eli: And then you don't have to fucking deal with it yeah

0:03:55 Thomas: You also don't get to have a life yeah

0:03:57 Eli: Yeah no that's the thing it's was complaining to my dad's group the other day because the thing about doing as many drugs as I do is when these days used to come up I used to just be able to do drugs about it. And I'd be like, ah, I was high and I missed it. But now I do the drugs.

0:03:57 Tom: And there's no barrier between you and your persona yeah

0:04:01 Thomas: Hey

0:04:19 Eli: So I can't, there's no more drugs. That's how people, that's heroin. I just realized how you get addicted to heroin. Cause I realized in that moment that the answer to that is just to do heroin that one time. And I'm on heroin now. That's what, that's the answer.

0:04:30 Tom: That's it yep it's done it's locked in now

0:04:33 Eli: Oh, so yeah, if you've got some heroin and you want to send it my way podcast list, well, it's too late now. You can't help me it's too late it's too late but hey speaking of health advice the Surgeon General of America not the fake one he a couple of choice words for us Tom why don't you tell us what he said but wait before you do that shut the shut up to patreon .com forward slash dear old dads we'll

0:04:50 Thomas: Said you must go to patreon and he also said quote quote, rip into it.

0:05:00 Eli: Into it yeah oh I love it it's becoming a show -wide thing

0:05:00 Tom: Rip rip into it

0:05:04 Thomas: Don't think he said that. I'm not seeing that here, Tom. I'm Not. Where? Are you seeing that? No. Are you saying, Eli, I don' t see that in the, yeah.

0:05:08 Eli: Citation needed oh I see it opening

0:05:09 Tom: Not feeling it not feeling that Yeah.

0:05:16 Thomas: Pay attention to your zero deaths.

0:05:17 Eli: Arguments

0:05:20 Tom: I wanted to talk today about a an advisory, I guess, is what it is from the surgeon general of the United States, as Eli said, not the evil, fake, non -scientific surgeon general of Florida, who's a lying liar that lies and is killing citizens. But in fact, the surgeon general, the United States' Vivek Murthy, I may have mispronounced that, but he issued an advisory on the mental health and well -being of parents called Parents Under Pressure, the U.S. Surgeon General's Advisory. Really is, it's a long 36-page advisory. There was a Psychology Today article that came out. There were a lot of other articles that came out about it. But the nuts and bolts of it really are that the rates of parents who report coping well with the stresses relating to parenting is declining.

0:05:43 Thomas: Boom, boom, boom. Boom, Boom, Bum, Boom. From zero to zero? What would it, who would report that?

0:06:10 Tom: So parenting appears, from some of these studies, appears to be hurting parents more than it has in years, decades, or generations past. And there's some advisory stuff in here that's It's primarily policy based. Right. That's primarily like, hey, you don't have to fix this yourself, Mr.

0:06:17 Thomas: I bet. It oh oh

0:06:30 Tom: And Mrs. Individual.

0:06:30 Thomas: Like it shouldn't be impossible to afford to live and stuff like that yeah that would help

0:06:35 Tom: But But I think it is an interesting thing to recognize that there are social factors and economic factors which have made the act of parenting just a harder thing to do. You know, it strikes me as like that boomer bullshit, you know, where boomers are like, I don't know, when I was your age, I had a house and two cars. And I worked a minimum wage job. And it's like, yeah, that's because fucking wage inequality since 1947 has fucking like destroyed the American middle class. Like we're not comparing apples to apples, you piece of shit.

0:07:05 Thomas: Since 1980 uh when Ronald Reagan it's all Reagan so it's specifically

0:07:09 Tom: Yeah. I was just thinking when my dad was born, he was in 47, so yeah.

0:07:12 Thomas: But also it's funny how that's the opposite of true like all kids these days they have it so easy they have so back in mind it's like it's the fucking op when it comes to this there's a lot of ways our lives are easier obviously technology helps But like when it comes to this, we're

0:07:25 Tom: Does it though? I feel like it makes things harder, to

0:07:26 Eli: I got porn

0:07:27 Thomas: More comfortable in a lot of ways. Like I think like, I don't know, fucking travel is a little better than in the 40s.

0:07:27 Eli: On my phone man does tom know about porn

0:07:33 Thomas: I'm grasping at straws, Tom. There's got for

0:07:35 Tom: Yeah, because I'm just like, I don't know, man, because they like, yeah, sure, now we have email instead of snail mail, but also we're pace has picked up. The like pace of everything picks up to match the technology. So it's like, yeah, well, things are easier. And it's, like, well yeah, but also I'm required to do 40 times more of them.

0:07:50 Thomas: Know it's sort of how like somehow the somehow the Apple M chip is like 30 percent better every year. And I'm like, how is that possible? Then your computer is always the same amount of slow. That's because they just pile on the bullshit that it needs to do it's like well then what are we doing to ourselves good

0:07:51 Tom: So I'm not sure that's easier.

0:08:08 Eli: Also say that like I think the experience of people of privilege has gotten worse in a lot of ways and the experience of people out of privilege has gotten way better right like we probably haven't experience the best changes from like 1960 to now because it always rules to be white dudes right like and and the ways in which it didn't rule to be White Dudes in the 1960s and the ways it doesn't rule to be white a dude in 2024 I think I have access to a lot of the things that are bad for me that I didn't necessarily have access too in the nineteen sixties now I'm an exception to this because I'm mentally ill person so they would have just been like a lunatic I say into the sanitarium with you with

0:08:23 Thomas: Point oh god yeah you would have been you would the kennedys would have put you in a play oh yeah they wouldn't have been like he he's not part of our family but while we're at it let's also just put him in there

0:08:53 Eli: Don't threaten me with a good time yeah yeah rfk jr would have sawed my head off and left it on that street in the middle of central park it would have been the best but

0:09:06 Thomas: I was going for that that kennedy sister that they just they just

0:09:09 Eli: I got that kind of I I was shifting yeah I got it but yeah I know lobotomy lobotopy I got um but yeah I I think this is a really important document and I I was was amazed by the empathy it contained and the humanity it contained. And also I thought one of the reasons why I wanted to talk about it because Tom assigned it to us as homework. Um, of the reasons I, I wanted no, no,

0:09:10 Thomas: Just making sure yeah gotcha okay yeah fair Fair enough. Fair enough God awful he

0:09:28 Tom: I sometimes put articles in our show topics and ask if you're interested in them. And that's my homework.

0:09:32 Thomas: Grades us he gives us a grade

0:09:34 Eli: That's what we did. That's what we did. And then last week, Tom was like, Hey, did you guys read those articles? And I was like, well, if you're going to fucking check, then I'm going to start doing the homework professor.

0:09:40 Thomas: Eli

0:09:41 Tom: Can't decide what we're interested in. If you don't read the thing that maybe you'd be interested in, this is unhinged.

0:09:44 Eli: I can. I can introduce all the time. You can ask me any topic right now and I could yes or no you my personal interest. That's how my personal interest works. Read the headline, make a decision, say words. That's How It Works. But one of the reasons why I wanted to talk about this is not just the empathy, which I thought was interesting, but because this is the nature of how that positive change happens, right? Because I think one ofthe mistakes that a lot of people make is they are that lawmaking is the lawmaking that gets the most press, right, is crazy people behaving haven badly or super cool people with pie in the sky ideas but most lawmaking like the vast vast vast majority of lawmaking is well -intended public servants who sort of need consensus and expertise to do their jobs and what this surgeon general's report does is it is the beginning of the legislation that will make these things better right because your congressman unless unless they're a crazy person or a super great person, probably doesn't know what it's like to be a parent, right? They probably don't have a lot of in -touch feelings as to, like, what the average American is facing in parenthood.

0:10:55 Thomas: Are are you referring to when our now current president vice, uh, J.D. Vance said uh my wife has three kids are you talking yeah is that

0:11:02 Tom: My god. Yes.

0:11:03 Eli: When George W. Bush said, it's hard to put food on your family. Like, politicians are removed.

0:11:05 Thomas: It's not hard actually Remy will get it done for you right away yeah I

0:11:10 Tom: It's very easy. Yeah. Super straightforward.

0:11:12 Eli: But, the vast majority of politicians, right, They have very little to do with the average American, but they mean well. They actually mean well, and I do mean Republicans as well. Most Republicans are just sort of like, I believe in my thing, but what do the experts say about bridges? Most of them.

0:11:28 Thomas: Can't believe Trump's victory has already changed Eli's rhetoric will

0:11:31 Eli: It's really, I've converted, well, you know, once they started the executions, I really thought it'd good to fall in line.

0:11:32 Tom: It. Did happen quicker than I thought.

0:11:36 Thomas: This be less funny when we know that Trump won in reality or will it be more funny?

0:11:40 Eli: It's gonna be so Much Less Funny If He Wins.

0:11:41 Thomas: Less funny? Yeah.

0:11:40 Tom: I don't know. This doesn't even feel good now. I don' t think. I don't like this at all. Like this is my fucking asshole is puckering right now.

0:11:46 Thomas: It sucks.

0:11:49 Tom: I don'T like this.

0:11:47 Eli: Tom have to talk about something we have to it's our jobs that's what I said uh but the point is like they need somebody smart to collate the data for them right and this letter from the surgeon general right these like tom said these are policy recommendations right and these will become legislation well and they might also go into the dustbin

0:11:50 Thomas: Go into the dustbin of history. Yeah.

0:12:08 Tom: Well, yeah, I think this feels like a wishlist, but I was thinking about, I was thinkIng about this and I was thingIng abou ,t like kind of what drives so culturally, like what is, what feels to me like it has changed beyond the sort of economic and political realities, which want to recognize are most of the problem, right? They really are most of the problems.

0:12:29 Tom: But I also think that we're looking at parenting, I think, as a sort We're looking At parenting in a way that is goal -driven, I think that that's new. I mean by that, I Think, is that for before, four, the idea of parenting was not to produce a child that performs in a certain way in society and culture in the economy. The idea behind parenting was more, yeah, I'm just parenting. Like I'm to produce some kind of a production unit that will be independent and economically viable and will go to college and succeed in these specific individuated ways in middle of an economy in crisis. And I think we didn't have to think about it that way because we weren't in an economy that is in crisis, and I know that, like, broad strokes -wise, the economy looks good. Like, I get that. Like ,I know all the numbers and the data looks fine, but the reality is that the middle class continues to shrink, and what it means to be middle class continues to be harder, and the guarantee that was generationally sort of built in that ,like, the next generation would do better than the generation before it has collapsed and so I think parents very rightly are saying okay like parenting is now a goal -driven activity I am now parenting for a purpose I am not parenting toward an end and I think that creates its own kind of like and emotional pressure on the act of parenting which moves it away from an act of like love and relationships relationships and into an act of like I need to fucking get you to like learn fucking violin and you know take three sports and be in community service you can go to a college you can you don't even mean like there's a different feel to it now because

0:14:13 Tom: The stakes seem higher there's no like go work at the local factory job that really pays to raise a family anymore

0:14:19 Thomas: Pay for your family of five when your wife doesn't have to work or whatever. Ever yeah look

0:14:24 Tom: So I it feels to me like the stakes have changed and so when we have to when we think about like parenting as a goal -driven activity that's fucking stressful in its own way that like we're running up against in our house and it's it's kind of really fucking nerve -wracking yeah

0:14:39 Thomas: I look I get that I should be better and I should do better but I yeah no for real the fucking emails from the school like I'm not just doing a bit it's constant emails and I have three kids so I get three fucking talk about the homework that Tom makes us do sorry Tom can't read the articles I'm too busy with three different emails with entire and they can't just put like what's important to your kid obviously they have to put like all right here's what our entire school district and everyone who's ever gone is doing find your kids somewhere in that 400 paragraphs and it's just like I can't do it I just don't honestly I can'T do it I don't do it anymore I'm sorry I can't I need to hire someone to read the fucking emails from my kids schools it's not doable yep

0:14:45 Eli: Parenting parenting

0:14:59 Tom: Six minutes yeah

0:15:24 Eli: Get a phone call every time there's like an event coming up at the high school and there's always an event coming up atthe high school so just on a regular basis they'll be like mark your calendars don't forget it's dressed at my kid doesn't wear they don't have uniforms in preschool so the dress down friday thing never applies to me so I just got to listen this full message but again much like mail I don't know if we we talked about this in the bonus episode or if we talked in this episode much

0:15:39 Thomas: I get that exact thing yep yep yeah it'll be a while while ago but yeah

0:15:52 Eli: Like mail right I am actually listening to it they'll be like oh and by the way college applications are due on monday yeah

0:16:00 Tom: Man like feels like there's no safety net for people moving into the world that it feels super binary there's success all caps and then there's fucking failure and there's like no middle space for people to fall into anymore because that's true right as we enter the new more egregious gilded age wealth inequality literally dictates that that is more and more and more the case so as our kids move through the school system which is a you know supposed to to be this fucking meritocracy nonsense and it's not, but as they move through the fucking school system and as we prepare them for these things, like feel an intense pressure for my kids to be successful in these very specific ways that may not match their skills, may not match their interests, may Not match my ability to parent them into those goals.

0:16:53 Thomas: Forget that tom they just

0:16:55 Tom: It's terrifying.

0:16:55 Thomas: Have to be wearing the right spirit week bullshit thing every time or they'll be socially ostracized and has nothing to do with their future like really

0:16:59 Eli: Thomas

0:17:00 Tom: My God. I know. Well that's, I mean, that's the case too, right? Like, Like, like it's

0:17:05 Eli: Is aiming much lower and god damn it they were supposed to wear green today yeah

0:17:09 Thomas: It is it's every and every week is some some fucking thing every single week is some special thing it can't all be special everyone I'm so sorry I love the saints who teach our kids I do I love them they're saints stop making every can we just do some amount of normal like just oh this week normal fucking week school happens that's it just tests and shit

0:17:09 Tom: Fucking pajama day. God damn it. To that end. Yeah. Like, cause here's a, crazy here's truth. I think is that parenting and interacting with the schools and doing all of that and making sure that they do their homework and making sure they do Their 10 minutes of reading and like that is a full -time job, but that's butting up against a place where both parents work, right? The majority of America, the majority of families, 24 % of families are single parent So 24 % of don't have two parents in the household. Most people in two parent households, both people work, but then they give you this enormous amount of parental homework that you have to do on top of doing your full -time job. Because like, we don't Have this sort of like economic reality that It allows for a stay at home parent, but there's a full time stay at home parenting job that nobody's filling.

0:17:48 Thomas: Yep yeah yeah

0:18:24 Tom: Nobody's doing it. So you're doing like this cobbled together thing and everybody's aware that it's insufficient, right? You're describing, Thomas, I fucking feel that all the time. And it's like you some point it's like, oh, I just blow it off. Like, who cares about spirit week? But like somehow the other kids are getting it done. If your kid's the weird kid that didn't get it done, now you're the asshole parent. So there's like this immense amount of pressure to do what is in most circumstances kind of impossible I'll

0:18:52 Eli: Just want to take a moment and to say that I actually really like the special days and I find them really easy to follow along with it's sort of a fun opportunity for my family to unite around our one child and dress them up in green when they say it's time to dress up in gray and it's just just not that I I think it's about and I I to emphasize this I think it'S CUZ I LOVE MY KID MORE THAN YOU PROBABLY LOVE YOURS IS WHAT IT IS YOU

0:18:58 Tom: Break your legs I will break your eggs through this phone call

0:19:14 Thomas: That might be it I will say this it does like honestly when

0:19:19 Eli: 'LL LOVE HIM A LITTLE BIT MORE I mean

0:19:21 Thomas: When when when are this fucking impossible it does mean that the oh here's what you should do have fewer kids that's not good like do we want that to be what because that's for a lot of people that'll mean instead of one have zero I don't want a bunch of people who don't have the resources to fucking feel like well I guess I can't have kids we work too much that's fucking shitty yeah

0:19:42 Tom: Shitty but like truthfully

0:19:44 Eli: Tom has already voiced his his deep deep appreciation for the you can't afford to have kids movement can

0:19:45 Thomas: Tom supports that but yeah

0:19:50 Tom: Don't think that that's an untrue fact right like I think that that's unfortunately a really true and honest thing to have to evaluate is is whether or not having kids for your life is going to make your life a good life and unfortunately for a lot of people in this fucking expanded gilded age that answer is likely to be no and I think it's fair for those for people to say okay well then I you know I'm not going to do that if they want to do it do it like I don't I genuinely don't care but like I Think it's also so fair for people to say like, all right, this doesn't make sense for my life. I also think you like touched on something like accidentally Eli, but like with the like dressing up and like, but so much of this other stuff, what used to be optional doesn't feel optional anymore. I remember I'm older than you guys by about 10 years, but when I was in school, maybe there was spirit week. I don't know because I wasn't participating.

0:20:41 Thomas: But it would be the one week no you know when it was I because this was when we were in school it was the last week of school or or homecoming that's right it was homecoming now I remember there would be like one spirit week per semester possibly and it was when it Was Homecoming so the dance was the friday so you did a bunch of wacky stuff and then it culminated with whatever the homecoming dance was on Friday, and that was what it was for us, and it was one week.

0:21:02 Tom: Yeah. But also if you you didn't participate that was fine it didn't really matter because I never participated I never even knew when those things were yeah

0:21:05 Thomas: It didn't really matter. Oh, but that was more like high school. When it came to, yeah, actually, when it came to elementary, this never happened. This actually never happened for me.

0:21:14 Eli: I tell you guys there had a great experience last year one of the high schools I teach at they have uniforms um the last week of school spirit week like we said is a dress down day dress down week and I realized one of my favorite students is a goth and I just didn't know because I'd never seen him outside of his uniform so he he showed up with the chains and the stuff and I was like chris look at you and he was like yeah it's not a dress and I was like nice cool but like I don't know why I thought he would like be like wear a shirt that like a little tag that was like this should be a chain wallet and hang it rings and stuff but you know one of my favorite students is yeah I was like huh and

0:21:29 Tom: That hayley tells a story about that

0:21:51 Thomas: You You can see like the transparent outline of the chains that he should have, like a video game. Yeah

0:21:56 Eli: It's one of those things where like when you're an adult you cannot like indicate that you disapprove of someone not that I dislike god god people dress but I'm just saying like you can't ever you can even be like that's strange or I wouldn't expect that of you so I was like cool excellent like but it was also I was doing too enthusiastically and he was like you okay mr posnick I was uh -huh I love you have

0:22:10 Thomas: Hat

0:22:16 Tom: Hayley went to a a catholic school and they had the same thing where like they had like a week where everybody didn't have to wear their catholic uniform and like one of her closest his friends like would just show up in the makeup and the fucking hat and the cane and the I mean the full goth like regalia you know what I mean like bag like 90s goth shit that was like fucking crazy goth ship no

0:22:36 Eli: You guys seen the subreddit blunder years god

0:22:30 Thomas: In the game that's awesome uh oh of course yeah when it comes up on the main reddit so good did you see the one the other day where the guy was just like dressed like a like a clown yeah oh yeah yeah we're thinking of the same one that was that shook my core I can't believe I didn't send that to you

0:22:41 Eli: It's in fucking credible dude charlie chaplin yep charlie champlain guy is insane insane fucking grain can I say something from my heart you shouldn't let your kid dress that way you should not if

0:22:56 Thomas: The post was a guy dressed like Charlie Chaplin it was weirdly like like, white makeup -y thing all over, and he said, I had no friends, and I dress like this. To be fair, in the comments, he said he did have a girlfriend who dressed the same, so that really changed the spirit of the thing, but if you, if your kid genuinely has zero friends and dresses like that, you know, maybe, maybe Eli's take is, yeah, you, one needs friends.

0:23:04 Eli: -huh white face charlie time I suggest this people are like so

0:23:24 Thomas: Friends.

0:23:25 Eli: You're suggesting strip your child naked in the street and hit them with a series of rubber oh no I'm saying sit your kid down and be like hey I don't know if you notice but we live live in a fucking society and it's full of assholes. I love you, right? Because here's the thing. If Max walks down the stairs tomorrow for breakfast, dressed as Charlie Chaplin, I'm going to be like, hey, you can dress like Charlie Chaplain every day, all day, All You Want. I'll fist fight every single person in your school. But, but you live in world full of assholes and I would like them to be kind with you. So let's fall a little bit in line with the assholes and And then what you do is you graduate out of the different groups of assholes into cooler and cooler people. And then when you're my age, you literally don't have to hang out with anybody you don't like your whole life. You walk up to someone and they're like, why are you dressed like that? You're like I'll never see you again.

0:23:43 Thomas: This entire take is changing. Yeah. Oh,

0:24:14 Eli: And then you walk away and it's true. It's magically

0:24:16 Thomas: And by the way, you can dress normally and do that too. Like I dress, I dress pretty normal and then I just don't hang out with anyone.

0:24:18 Eli: You can dress normal. You can just however you want to dress. But we're forcing you in a room 12 hours a day with other people and they are going to be weird.

0:24:27 Thomas: It's hell.

0:24:28 Eli: So go upstairs and change.

0:24:28 Thomas: It's hell, yeah?

0:24:32 Tom: A text message like a group text like from some people that I work with and this woman on the text message sent a picture of her daughter like a like and and she said hey my daughter's like 23 or 24 here's her picture would you guys in your operations consider hiring this person and this person had facial tattoos facial piercings very specific makeup and hair choices and I was the only one who would answer the question like like everybody else in the text was like silent.

0:25:01 Eli: What a fool what a fucking

0:25:03 Tom: I don't care at all.

0:25:04 Eli: That was I was gonna say you could not torture you could not torture that answer out of me hey would you guys hire my daughter you can waterboard me all day ma 'am nothing I shock my balls to wake up

0:25:05 Tom: It was fine. Yeah, I promise it was fun.

0:25:05 Thomas: He, I'm sure he outranks whoever is asking this. Yeah well

0:25:16 Tom: But it's kind of like what you were saying, though. I was like, no, like

0:25:17 Thomas: It sounded like was she was she wanting the prove the point or something was she oh

0:25:22 Tom: I think she I think he was surprised when I based on her responses, when I said, no. Unfortunately, I wouldn't. Like, And I don''t care as Tom what this person looks like. But I know that I'm in a conservative business where most of my clients are attorneys and they are conservative people. And if I put this person in any kind of customer facing role, like going to cause a problem. And I was like, no, I like, unfortunately, no matter how bright this person is, like to your point about living in a society, no matter how bright, no matter how competent, no matter how capable, is like going to make a difference. I guarantee having been doing this for 25 years, this will cause a problem. I know it like like me, like I have, I have arm tattoos. If I go to a meeting, I wear a long sleeve shirt like I can't go to a meeting and roll my sleeves up because I have tattoos on my arms.

0:25:26 Thomas: Look

0:26:08 Eli: Whenever you point this out people think that you're agreeing with society and we're not right Right. Charlie Chaplin kid should be able to dress like Charlie Chaplain kid. Right. Is very obviously wrong for anyone to judge Charlie Chaplin for anything other than the content of his character, which is loving the shit out of Charlie Chaplin. Right. That's not who he's going to interact with.

0:26:13 Tom: Not at all. Right.

0:26:30 Eli: Right. And I can't my wishful thinking for human nature does not change how people will treat him when he walks out the door. Right. And so your job as a parent is to protect your kid. It right here's the thing why do we look both ways when we're crossing the street even if it's a one -way street you don't have to just look one way if it's a one way street because everybody should be driving the correct way some drivers out there are me yeah that's why we teach you to look both ways right stroll it down exactly but truly like we prepare our kids for a a that will not always treat them well that will NOT always behave and the notion that like well well, you know, the world should be better rather than this, that is preparing your child for heartbreak and injury at

0:26:36 Tom: It's exactly right. Right.

0:26:54 Thomas: Both ways before you set your uh and yeah yeah

0:27:12 Tom: Absolutely.

0:27:12 Eli: The hands of people unkind, right?

0:27:14 Tom: That's a thousand percent. Yeah.

0:27:16 Eli: Not always be there to fight for them. Because I do, and you know I'm in a lot of advocacy, you know autism parenting groups and stuff like that. And the truth of the matter is what I hear is that you will not always be there to be there for them, as right. Someone who has a disabled kid, right, who will almost certainly butt up at some point in his life against someone who thinks he is different in a weird way and doesn't like it, I will not be there to kill that person immediately. So eventually, of course, yes, but immediately I won't. If I don't give him the skills to defend himself, to feel good about himself ,to have self -confidence, to feel good, to adapt to those situations, I have failed him just as much as if I had, when he came home, I said, yeah, well, that's what you get for dressing like Charlie Chaplin.

0:28:01 Tom: Yeah. Well, I think like a big part of teaching our kids to operate in an unfair society is teaching them that like they have to blend into that society in order for society to reward them with the things they want like that's not fair or good or just it's just true and we have very real talk conversations with the boys at this point who are moving into college who are going to want you know from professors you know they're going to they're gonna want things from these people they're gonna want like grown -up things from some of the people they interact with and it's like yeah all

0:28:32 Eli: Maybe the bonfire party can write you a letter mm

0:28:35 Tom: Shit you got way within high school is not going to fly now that you want things from people. Now that you won't things from people, you're going to have to play their game in order to appease their whatever their expectations. And I'll tell you, like if you do that, you will be more successful more quickly and then you can fucking dress like Charlie Chaplin on the fucking weekend. It's fine. But there's a there's are real strong pushback against that. It It shouldn't matter. It's like, well, it shouldn't doesn't actually dictate society.

0:29:03 Eli: It shouldn't of course no one is I mean look there's probably three assholes in the world who are like it should matter. Don't dress like Charlie, you should dress however you want, you should also be prepared for the world to react to that in bad ways right and here's the other side of that coin right sometimes you have to make courageous choices right like look I'm in hoink-a-boink New Jersey where people are fine, but I'm on the parent groups and I know some people are homophobic and some people were transphobic right in my community. And I know that it someday, if Max chooses to be trans, it means people are going to treat him badly. Does that mean I want him to stay in the closet? Absolutely not. But we will have conversations about some of the reactions he might get. And also why daddy carries a machete all the time. We will have those Right. But when you talk about having those conversations, there's so many people who just jump to the assumption that you're saying someone should silence themselves or put themselves in the closet or deny their truth. No one's saying Charlie Chaplin kid can't dress like Charlie Chaplin, but Charlie Chaplin kid should have had a conversation with his parents to be told how he was treated. Because I promise you, I promise you, not having any friends which is what that post said, just a quick reminder was painful, right

0:30:17 Eli: And it was part of that family's obligation as someone who takes care of a kid to figure out either A a safe environment for your kid to be in so that they can dress like Charlie Chaplin and have friends or B have a conversation about what expectations are in society so that they could fit in and make friends and the thought that everyone is going to make all the best choices and that That you're hands off about it, right? That it's everyone's fault but your own is, in my opinion, bullshit.

0:30:44 Tom: I think you can have that conversation. Be like, yeah, this is bullshit. This is unfair. Doesn't matter, it just does. It is not this is about results. But this is also part of that goal driven parenting, you and I think that that's that's also something like to go back. Like, that's something that I'm not sure everybody had to contend with in the same really public way that we're contending with things now. Because one of the other notes that I had on this was that, you know, one of the things that's making parenting more difficult now is that parenting has become performative in a way that is really public. That was not as public before.

0:31:18 Eli: The thing you care about, at least for me, I can only speak for me. The thing you carry about when someone tells you they are a parent is how good a parent they are, right. And when I find out someone I admire in other ways is a bad parent, right, like an artist or a teacher or a doctor or whatever. But then, like, it comes out that they're a shitty parent, Right? Entire thought process about who they are as a person and how important their work is and what is demanded of them and what they are meant to do changes yeah because to me right and I can only speak for myself maybe you guys don't have this feeling but like to me I have not yet and it's something I grapple with myself right I haven't met an artist whose whose work was so good that I'm like, yeah, it's okay that you were a shitty parent. You know what I'm saying? Like I really appreciate John Lennon's work, but I also really don't like that. He hit his kids. Yeah. Crosby, love his music. Really don't care for the fact that he hit his kid. So when someone talks to me about being Crosby, I talk about the fact that he hit his fucking kids. When someone talksto me about Arthur Miller, who wrote some of the most brilliant American literature of all time, I have to talk about the fact that he put his son disabled in an asylum and left him there you

0:31:38 Thomas: Yeah geez

0:32:27 Eli: That is what I think of Arthur Miller I love the crucible I love death of a salesman but what I think of Arthur Miller is that he failed as a parent that's who he is he

0:32:37 Thomas: I just think it's amazing that he managed to be dating wasn't it marilyn monroe Am I crazy? Yeah, that's all I think about. How the fuck did he pull that off?

0:32:41 Eli: Also dated Marilyn Monroe alright well there you have it there's the different takes from the show

0:32:49 Thomas: Well, you know, you covered an important thing. And yeah, I'm just saying also, somehow he was dating Marilyn Monroe. That seems pretty crazy.

0:32:52 Eli: In youtube yeah also good the most important thing about Arthur Miller to you Tom

0:33:00 Tom: That's not that he dated Marilyn Monroe. Bro, I have a, like, it's a separate,

0:33:02 Eli: Wrong incorrect incorrect

0:33:03 Thomas: Come on. Yes, it is. Yes, It is.

0:33:04 Eli: Tom

0:33:06 Tom: I mean, like there's a separatist side, but I have hear what you're saying completely, Eli, like I told, like if somebody's a bad parent, like no, no if somebody's bad parent like that is kind of a like it's one of the most big deal things about them, right, I feel like the same thing is true if like you find out like somebody like, you know, is abusive to their spouse too, it is like why don't, like as as a person, you're now irredeemable, right?

0:33:12 Eli: I know we disagree on this yeah I know mm

0:33:28 Tom: Like now it doesn't matter as a person, but I do also make a great and conscious and intentional effort to separate fully the art from the artist. Um, I make choices about how my money is used when I do that. So for example, like, and this is a great example, cause he's a genuinely awful person. Like Eric Clapton sucks.

0:33:47 Thomas: Oh, yeah. God, it sucks real

0:33:49 Tom: Eric Clapton is the fucking worst. Like, Eric Clapson is an irredemable trash trash human being so do really like some of eric clapton's music I still think that music is just objectively good music to me I enjoy still the way it sounds I can't pretend that I don't like the wayit sounds because I think eric clapton's a piece of shit but

0:33:49 Eli: Sure does oh

0:33:49 Thomas: Bad.

0:34:03 Eli: Yeah oh

0:34:08 Thomas: Oh, Oh, I am so lucky because I don't like Eric Clapton's music already before I knew he sucked. That's always the best. Isn't that the best when you just get lucky? You're like, fuck, I always hated this person.

0:34:16 Eli: Yeah you hated someone first oh

0:34:19 Thomas: Yeah, I was saying this person, their music. And then they're like and they suck. Yeah. Fuck yes.

0:34:19 Eli: Rules. Yep. I know.

0:34:24 Tom: I won't do is I won't buy his music or stream his music

0:34:27 Thomas: By the way, John Lennon didn't hit his kids. I don't know what the hell that's about. Yeah.

0:34:29 Eli: It's Paul McCartney that I'm talking about,

0:34:30 Thomas: Oh, really?

0:34:31 Eli: Yeah.

0:34:32 Thomas: Oh, fuck. OK, that's news to me.

0:34:28 Tom: So want to listen to Eric Clapton, what I do is make sure that I buy anything I want to listen too used. So there's no royalty. And then I just listen to it that way. And I I'll do that for anybody. If I find out somebody is a piece of shit, I don't think that the art has suddenly become bad. That's just not true. Like if I liked the art before it's great art, I liked the art. It doesn't change my liking of the art because I don't conflate the art and the artist. I think it's wrong to do that. But what I do do is make sure that I don't financially support that person ever again. So, think the art and the artists are importantly connected actually as a consumer of art.

0:35:10 Thomas: I think it's up to you. I think it's up to whoever it is, like it's like it's up to whoever, whatever person, however they enjoy the art. If part of them enjoying the art is enjoying the artist, then to them it is together. But if

0:35:19 Eli: It is John Lennon just

0:35:21 Tom: Agreed. Yeah, but for me personally, I don'T think it's important.

0:35:22 Thomas: It's just, hey, I like listening to this song. Yeah, sure. Whatever.

0:35:26 Eli: For those. Yeah, I mean, wait. Are you kidding? I can't wait for Mean Wizard Lady to die. I love Wizard. I Love Wizard book and all Wizard related media.

0:35:33 Thomas: Wait, aren't they doing a new HBO show or something?

0:35:36 Eli: They're doing a new HBO show. Guess who can't watch it? Me.

0:35:39 Thomas: Really? Oh, can she not

0:35:40 Eli: Do you know how long I have been been waiting for wizard video game and they made wizard video game people say it's good I don't know because I can't buy wizard video games yeah but when oh when mean lady dies when mean lady does I'm gonna get that video game

0:35:40 Thomas: Get money? Really. Oh, I don't care. I just want to go on the record that my personal stance is if

0:35:57 Tom: Well, just get it secondhand. Can you just get it second hand?

0:35:59 Thomas: Yeah. That's a good point. It ultimately would drive up demand in a micro economic sense, which would know. So but actually that joke, I think, highlights some of the absurdity of I don't actually think it's on the consumer to be morally perfect in the face of like having something ruined for them because the billionaire asshole sucks. You know, like, I feel like that's that's kind of like it's just unnecessarily harming someone who doesn't. Yeah, good.

0:36:24 Tom: Well you wouldn't consume anything like just, you couldn't consume anything at all like what product would you buy like

0:36:25 Eli: And think no ethical consumption under capitalism yeah no I I agree with that and I also think it's also like you hear um people make this shitty argument too do which is like the idea of like forced veganism and like obviously there are people in the world who cannot afford or physically deal with being being vegan right mean veganism isn't a good idea right but like if one makes the argument and some people do that like veganism should be a forced viewpoint of the world especially when they make that argument that it should be what happens now and today that is a very very silly thing to oppose to oppose on your other fellow human beings. And I think that there's way too much of that, right? I think we do way too many things. I think there's too much shaming of the individual and way too little holding of corporations and politicians and countries responsible for those things, right? You know, it's, it's the like, you know, canvas bags versus carbon output argument, which is like, it is amazing to bring canvas bags to the grocery store rather than use plastic bags. We should absolutely do that if we have the resources to do it. It is not the difference maker as to what is polluting our oceans. It is

0:37:30 Eli: Not the difference maker as to the majority of harm to our planet. But when my government spends a bunch of money and time shaming me for not having a canvas bag at the grocery store, they are shifting the blame from the company dumping a bunch stuff into the lakes and rivers to me. And so we need to be aware of that as consumers and skeptics.

0:37:53 Tom: I'm curious to go back to the to general warning do you think intuitively is your does your gut tell you that it is harder to parent now that the act of parenting now is psychologically or emotionally more challenging than your folks had experientially I

0:38:08 Eli: Say this. I know that it's harder, right? Here's what I will say. I will say the ways in which it is hard and the effects that it has on people are things that we now acknowledge to be negative, right. Our parents, and this is why so many of them have made terrible choices, right, our parents just didn't acknowledge mental illness for the most part, forget right the tweet but but it's like, it's so funny. So much of what boomers think are their morals is actually just lead poisoning. But like, this is really true, right? A tremendous amount of like sort of boomer ideology is just, or so-called boomer ideologies, because there are lovely boomers out there. I think people know that, right. But so much of boomers are just like, I don't know, I'm not sure. I don't know, so much. So of what we think of as boomer, ideology is just untreated mental illness, right? Why did your uncle fall for Donald Trump so quickly? Well, because he has fucking bipolar disorder. Yeah. That's why he tried to storm the fucking Capitol is because he is an untreated mental illness, right? And so what I think this paper does that's important is it acknowledges that a lot of the suffering people used to do in silence, a lot of the sufferings that resulted in really bad stuff that was like a family secret or ended up with people leaving their families or with hurting their kids, hurting themselves, right, all that stuff that has gotten better, We right. Now acknowledge as mental illness. And so in many ways, the awareness of that, right much like acknowledging autism or acknowledging learning right, makes it seem like now everyone's learning disabled, right? Think we are acknowledging the hardships of parenthood in the way that we never have before. And I think doing that is a net good, whether or not it was easier to be a parent in 1960 versus today.

0:39:44 Thomas: Going to come out and say it just was easier. Easier I I think I think the statistics I think part of this report was like mothers parents who work spend more time with their kids now than parents who didn't work back in like the 50s like there's more time parenting more obligations and stuff I'm

0:39:46 Eli: I don't know. I'm not making a claim either way. Mm

0:39:56 Tom: There I think the the expectation of parenting as a as active rather than passive activity I think a lot of parenting when we were kids was a lot of passive activity parenting was you know it had a lot more and I know like I'm not like I'm not mythologizing this like is I'm not going to do the fucking we drank from the hose shit like that's nonsense but like I do think that a lot of the time spent parenting now is expected to be much more active time rather than sort of passive time. And then we're doing this in in a very public space. And we're doing this amidst a backdrop that just is higher stakes. You know, like if you watch, um, and I know it's a stupid show, but like, if you watch something like that 70s show and you think about the world that those kids were growing up into, there they at least thought whether it was true or not, people that were coming out of high school thought if I get out of high school, there's a job out there for me.

0:40:18 Thomas: Definitely drinking yeah mm -hmm yep

0:40:53 Tom: And that job is okay enough that I can be somewhere in that middle class space, right? I can get a job just with a high school diploma and I'll be okay. Will the guy who goes to college be better? Absolutely. Is that a sort of necessity to be and stay in the middle class? I think in the 70s and 80s, people did not believe that that was true. I think in 2024, it's economic reality that for the majority of people, they do not believe that a high school education will be sufficient to bring them into and allow them to stay in the middle class long term. And it's a higher stakes game that we're all playing as parents now. It just is. Because getting a kid through high school is not that fucking hard, getting a kid through college is economically backbreaking, so it's just different, and different worse, right, like that's not different the same, that's different worse, and that active time that you were alluding to, Thomas, who the fuck has time for it before at least there was a part of america where there a greater percentage of people had a stay -at -home parent we're being asked to do more with less time

0:42:05 Thomas: If I was stay -at -home parent I would just fucking I would read the emails I I would do it. Or I would feel real. I'd feel real bad I didn't. It would be my responsibility.

0:42:10 Tom: Well for real because it would be your job yeah

0:42:10 Eli: Thomas, you are a stay -at -home parent. You don't...

0:42:15 Thomas: I have fucking Jesus Christ. How dare you? I'm a parent at work parent. That's actually what I am.

0:42:22 Eli: Goal of Dear Old Dads is for Thomas Smith to eventually beat the shit out of me because of the things I say on air getting there one step at a time all all right gentlemen before we go I what my friend barack one got me dad joke face off it's a game of dad jokes so I'm gonna pull a card here got a card dad joke face off

0:42:48 Thomas: We can gamify. You know, it's about time to change this up.

0:42:50 Tom: What's happening right now what

0:42:51 Eli: All right first joke from dad joke phase off making

0:42:54 Thomas: Is there a competition system? What has the scoring work? Tell me the rules.

0:42:55 Tom: What's happening

0:42:56 Eli: Game component I'm just reading these jokes that come with the thing you laugh you lose is apparently the game so you know don't laugh or whatever all right what tree always comes in handy a palm tree what no that's it that's That's it for this week.

0:43:03 Thomas: Well, I win then. Palm tree yeah

0:43:14 Tom: There was so what was all that build -up for that handy

0:43:15 Eli: I had to get all the cards out. Oh, the basket.

0:43:19 Thomas: Now you have a different way to deliver the same low quality dad jokes okay I thought there was gonna be more to this I thought we're gonna have a

0:43:23 Eli: Dare you? No, but I to have to Google them and shit. Now I don't.

0:43:27 Thomas: Yeah I we could do a competition between Tom and I I guess the punchline you know that would be fun all

0:43:31 Eli: Rip into it.

0:43:33 Tom: We should do guess the punchline I'm

0:43:38 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILf, tom smith who also wrote and recorded the intro music which is used with his permission this podcast is a production of daddy issues llc copyright 2022 all rights reserved

0:44:18 Thomas: Oh this week normal fucking week school happens that's it just