DOD165: Uhhhh, Don't Correct Me

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's making sure you're doing it right, and you're not. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:38 Eli: This Is the pegging episode, right? This is the pecking episode. I didn't. I know. It's got to be the pegged episode this week.

0:00:42 Thomas: Did

0:00:46 Tom: Feel like I'm doing that right. I don't know. Well, I don't know. You have to tell me, Eli.

0:00:50 Thomas: Someone tell him we're doing a pegging episode? Because

0:00:50 Tom: Yeah. Now we've got to do a pegging episode.

0:00:54 Eli: Honestly, until that stops being an evergreen joke, that's how I... Oh God, I hate that when you, when someone has an intro to the podcast that's too similar and you think you're on an old episode, but it's actually a new one. So there

0:01:06 Thomas: Oh, yeah, this was the pegging one. This was where we heard all about the

0:01:08 Eli: Yeah.

0:01:08 Tom: Oh, no. They're going to talk about it always comes back to pegging.

0:01:11 Thomas: Double dragon and the, yeah.

0:01:12 Tom: It's a weird family show is the weirdest family show.

0:01:14 Eli: The one that I hate on the NPR podcasts because they listen to their intro music because they're in a radio studio, right? It goes through their headphones. Is every radio podcast over at NPR? They'll be like, wow, what a fantastic tune, what an amazing tune, that's by the great Homa de Zana of Gosin, Idaho, gave us that beautiful note. And I'm like, oh my god, you've said this the last 900 episodes. But guys, the only thing more tired than repeated jokes that you're bored of on a podcast like this one meta is the auto ads. Yes, the auto ads ending your podcast enjoyment experience one repeated ad at a time with varying volume levels that we have no control over. But you can put an end to those auto ads by killing Ira Glass. No, uh by heading over to patreon.com forward slash dnd minus, nope not dnd minused your old dads, that's the other show you

0:02:02 Tom: Oh, geez. That. Okay. Nope. What?

0:02:08 Thomas: Couldn't hurt. It Oh. Cease and desist. Cease. And.

0:02:17 Eli: Opening arguments, you know, that's a call back to people will get it, um, of GAM. Hey, plug within a plug Thomas Thomas and Lydia were guests over on GAM, and they did a fucking phenomenal job. It was so much fun having them on, uh

0:02:18 Tom: Yeah.

0:02:17 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Shit. Sweet. Oh, it was our pleasure. I loved it. It was so much fun. I love going on. Gam. I want to check out God awful movies. I mean, it's. But more importantly, everyone from God awful moves. Check out this show because I feel like God awful.

0:02:37 Eli: It out yeah give it a shot yes exactly check out

0:02:41 Tom: Yeah I should flow the other direction a little more yeah

0:02:42 Thomas: God awful movie. God awful is doing fine. So.

0:02:42 Eli: This show Brazil we're okay, yeah uh, back to our plug. Got Dear Old Dads is where you want to go for commercial free versions of of every single episode, bonus stories when Tom feels like it. Sometimes bonus stories are so good they become full fucking episodes, my friends. Yes, that's what's happening today, and you only get the taste over at patreon.com/dearolddads. Rip, rip, rip into it

0:02:45 Thomas: Yeah. Is the show you're on right now. Yeah. I

0:03:14 Tom: What is this

0:03:16 Thomas: Realize

0:03:17 Eli: Yeah, gentlemen, uh, reason I've brought you here today to this podcast is because I have sort of uh, my own personal Am I the Asshole situation, uh, happened yeah

0:03:25 Thomas: It's the time we recorded. Yes. Standing

0:03:31 Tom: Let's start with yes and then we'll kind of work into you know

0:03:31 Thomas: Yes. Yep.

0:03:32 Eli: No that's fair, you know what, walked right into that one, yeah exactly that's there. So I, I had something happen with Max the other day and I was, was truly not sure whether or not I was right or wrong. Um, you know, that's rare for me because I am certain I'm right 99.99%.99% of the time. Yeah um I did

0:03:35 Tom: We'll start with the yes. You get back into it, it's fine yeah, did

0:03:49 Thomas: Yeah what the fuck did it involve math? That's the only thing I can think of

0:03:54 Eli: Ha ha ha, spelling I

0:03:58 Tom: Is the first time hearing that you're even worried about being right or wrong, like this is, I'm not, I reject the premise is

0:04:00 Eli: Know I know I know there's a body count to the story, you guys will understand. So yeah

0:04:06 Tom: You clone his Speak and Spell to see what he's speaking and spelling, is that, that's yeah, a little aggressive

0:04:09 Eli: Yeah no, I just, I have my own Speak and Spell in the room. The cow says moo. The cow sees moo. We should call the cow's parents and make sure they understand that the cow says moo. It's so, Saturday, uh, Nana got their flu shots on Friday. He was a fucking fucking champ about it. He was so fucking good. Uh, but Saturday they both feel like shit, and Anna's like, hey, I really need a rest day. Do you mind being on Max in the morning? And I'm like, absolutely. So we go to Max's favorite spot to hang, Catch an Air. Did you guys have these out in your various parts of the world trampoline place, yes yeah your

0:04:41 Tom: It the is it the, uh, trampoline place, okay oh

0:04:44 Thomas: Oh god yeah, oh, and then if you are an adult and you think, like, oh, I could jump on that trampoline, you do it once, your whole back gives out and you're in the hospital the rest of your life, yeah yep was

0:04:53 Eli: Spine just crunches down into a Slinky size, yeah, so

0:04:57 Tom: I'm curious. Are your trampoline places in New Jersey $750 an hour like they are out by me?

0:05:03 Thomas: Really?

0:04:58 Eli: They are $750 an hour Yeah, they're insanely expensive.

0:05:04 Thomas: Oh, okay.

0:05:06 Tom: They're so expensive out here. Like they're like, it's like the kids want to go like with their friends to the trampoline place. And I'm like, yeah, but I have to get a second mortgage if you're going to be there more than 20 minutes.

0:05:13 Eli: Okay, fine. Let's go to the bank and get you a... Do they take cashier's checks at the Trampolin Place?

0:05:19 Tom: It's fucking insane how expensive those fucking places are, but yeah, okay.

0:05:22 Eli: Yeah. They're insanely, They take a lot of cash. They're insane. They're really expensive, and they're based on age. So every time they ask me, they'll be like, "How old is he?" I just say four, because I know that if I say the right number, they'll be like, "Two dollars." So There's always a challenge to it, but yeah.

0:05:23 Tom: Yeah. Right. No

0:05:29 Thomas: Negative three. Yeah, yeah, he's negative five, can you pay me money, do I, how's that, can I get, yeah whoa, oh my god, that sounds horrible, imagine the vomit you would clean out of those, yeah

0:05:39 Eli: Exactly. Yeah. I work here. Uh,

0:05:42 Tom: One more question: the ones by you, serve alcohol at night? Do they have, like, adult hours? And they serve booze at night?

0:05:47 Eli: That's amazing. I'm so... I will say ours are slightly more kid -centric. Yeah. I was gonna say I... are slightly more kids -centric so they are mostly play place with a little bit of trampoline, as, as opposed to most Catching Errors, which are mostly trampoline with, like, a tiny little bit of playground in the corner.

0:06:04 Tom: Gotcha. The only one I've been to, I went to as an adult at, in the evening with, like, my CrossFit gym back in the day, and we played, like, trampoline dodgeball, and I was shocked to find out that they have an open bar. They have, well, open, but they have a, they have a bar, like, go there and have some drinks and then bounce around but

0:06:19 Thomas: Makes sense to try to make money off of the adult crowd late at night, actually, yeah

0:06:23 Eli: Yeah,

0:06:23 Tom: Your vomit point is extremely well taken. Like, that was my first thought was, like, I definitely do not real- real. I was, I was blown away that that was something somebody thought was a good idea, just based on a cleanup standpoint, but all right, yeah.

0:06:23 Eli: Yeah, yeah.

0:06:27 Thomas: I'm already almost vomiting sober on those things,

0:06:38 Eli: Mm Hmm. Yeah, up Catching Air, by the way, has replaced the Science Museum in our hearts and minds a little bit. Sad.

0:06:39 Tom: Oh.

0:06:46 Thomas: That must Have been really hard, yeah.

0:06:47 Eli: It is, especially because the Science Museum is free, so it's really, uh, hard on the wallet, hard on the heart. I'm still pressuring him. Occasionally I'll be like, "Oh man, you know what I would love of today? The, uh, the fucking Science Museum," and he's like, "Catching Air!" And I'm like, "No." "All right, Catching Air. Catching, uh..." So we go, and we have just the best fucking time. It's also the most independently he has ever played, because I don't know if you've ever been at one of these, like, gymnasium-sized indoor playgrounds. You can't actually follow your kid in them.

0:06:50 Tom: Yeah. Oh.

0:06:54 Thomas: Yeah.

0:07:15 Thomas: No. Yeah.

0:07:16 Eli: Right?

0:07:16 Thomas: That's, yeah.

0:07:17 Eli: First time we went, I was like, "All right, daddy and ours are playing," and he climbed a slide that I couldn't slide physically, and I just sort of was like, "All right, well, don't die, please."

0:07:23 Tom: My God. Yes. Yes.

0:07:27 Thomas: And Sometimes they'll have, like, fucking sarlacc pits in there, where they, like, they'll be under a bunch of shit. You can't find them because it's like they're actually down underneath something. And it's okay. A heart attack. Heart attack. I don't, because I have Arlo, who's a wandering kid, like, he might have left the building. I literally, we last time we were at one, one of those, as some kid's birthday party. And I couldn't find him for a sec. Cause, you know, I looked away for three tenths of a second. And then I, I literally was looking enough where I was like, do I need to go outside? Like he, he's, he was still in that wandering-out-of-the-building phase, you know? And it was like, fuck, he could be anywhere. And Danny, he popped out of a little, like, he was in this fucking pit.

0:07:35 Tom: Oh.

0:08:06 Eli: Yep.

0:08:06 Thomas: And it's like, geez, I don't think they should have those.

0:08:06 Eli: Yeah. They're just in a ball

0:08:07 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. They can hold their breath for, like, three hours in those things, like, it's fine. It's like fucking porpoises or some shit. I used to take Fin to those things that were in the big industrial centers and to, I remember trying to follow them through one of, of these things, and, like, my fat ass got stuck in it, and, like, I couldn't, like, get myself, because you can't move. They're made for, like, little kids.

0:08:08 Eli: Pit or behind another kid or all children. Yep.

0:08:08 Thomas: Yeah.

0:08:29 Eli: Yeah.

0:08:30 Tom: They're not made for a 250 pound man, like I was. A big guy at the time. I'm like trying to maneuver around, I'm stuck, I'm a beached whaley to get little kids to help me up with pry bars.

0:08:39 Eli: You're literally living the Peppa Pig episode where Daddy Pig gets stuck in the soft play. Yeah, yeah.

0:08:44 Tom: Yes, it's impossible. You try to push against it, and, like, it just, it's just like, no, that's not... I just die here. That's what happens. I die here.

0:08:50 Eli: A perfect example of this: is one of his favorite areas to run in, in his favorite Catching Air, has a log, right? You know, like a log roll that people do on the water. Yeah? But when the kids run across it, it doesn't twist, because the kids weigh no pounds, right? An adult runs across it, does twist. So he runs across the log, and I'm like, "All right, here comes daddy," in the log was like... and I just fucking got decked into some mesh netting.

0:09:00 Tom: Yes. Right.

0:09:05 Thomas: Right.

0:09:14 Thomas: That's a fantastic prank.

0:09:15 Eli: Yeah, and he was like, "Dad, you're bad at walking," and I was like, "Yeah, fucking tell me about it." So, so he, he plays a lot more independently there. We've been having a ton of fun there. Like, we stop for lunch and just have, you know, at the Science Museum we would sort of be like, "Okay, we're saving iPad time so that you'll eat at the Science Museum." We'd set up the iPad time and he would watch his iPad while he ate so, so that we sort of wouldn't have trouble.

But now, just him and I sit there, like, we literally chat about the things that we just did, which is such an amazing feeling to, like, be having conversations about what's going on. Yeah, it's incredible. But I had an incident happen, and I didn't know what to do. So we're in the little kid area, and we're there, and there's some other parents around, and I'm watching Max pretty close, right? And Max has seasonal allergies, which means he's sneezing, yeah? He has not mastered the Dracula sneeze, right? Aware that the elbow needs to go up to the nose and mouth, but the order and the delay between those things, not so good. So sometimes

0:09:44 Tom: That's nice. Yeah.

0:10:12 Thomas: Yeah.

0:10:12 Eli: He'll sneeze, then put his elbow up. Sometimes he'll sneezed, wait to three count and put his elbow up, and at least once he's put his elbows up, then he's sneezed. So We're playing around the thing. There's this other mom there, and he sneezes, forgets to do the Dracula cough, and this lady gets down to his level and, very nicely, this is important, there's an important part of the story, very nicely is like, "Hey buddy, don't forget, gotta do a Dracula sneeze," and she shows him, he puts his arm up, and I'm like, yeah, because I like that thing I do.

I like when someone else shows kindness and sort of understands that, like, we're all a village parenting thing. Like, if I see a parent with a kid in a meltdown, I always try and hit him with one of these faces, you know? Know what I'm saying? It's an audio medium, so you don't But I, I hit him with the, like, I hit him with, like, "You're doing a great job" face. You, the way you would look at a Budweiser horse just as it crossed the finish line, if I may describe it metaphorically, right? I try to give them, like, a "we've all been their face, right?

0:10:22 Tom: Yeah.

0:10:56 Thomas: Yeah, that was very confusing.

0:11:11 Thomas: Takes a village. You may Love All That, but I know you hate Being Corrected. So I'm sure you have conflicting feelings what's happening here with this mom.

0:11:17 Eli: I hate being corrected, and I'll get to the larger point in a second, when we get to the moment that happens, but also, don't get near my fucking kid. Is also my thing is just like, I don't know you and what you've got going on, and there's no upside to you teaching my kid, right? The best case scenario is like, that lady, fucking yeah, exactly, become besties. So happens we're playing some more, it's going well, sneezes again, she's like, "Hey buddy, Dracula cough," and I'm like, alright Seems, seems a lot. Uh, the third time he sneezes, she, like, gets down at his level and she says, "Hey, hey, not covering our mouth when we sneeze is very rude." And I'm like, "Oh, okay." And

0:11:26 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, what's the best case scenario here, you made a lifelong friend, yeah two seems like a lot, yeah

0:12:00 Eli: When I say I'm like, okay, I mean, I say it out loud. Yeah. I'm like, oh, okay And I sort of go over to her and I'm like, Hey buddy, we're going to go in a second. And before we go, I turned to her And I'm like, hey, just so you know, it's significantly more rude to correct another person's child than it is to not know how to Dracula sneeze when you're four years old. And we left and we played on our own and she left or turned into smoke or something and went away.

I don't fucking know. I imagined her. I'm making her up. Who knows? But the point is she was gone. And I really wasn't sure how to feel. And I will tell you, right, why I was least sure how to feel is, like, I do think it's a good direction. It's a thing you need to know. She was incredibly sweet about it. But whenever anyone labels my kid, especially because he is a person with a disability, right? Right. And so like all the disability research, all the disability writing, all that, everything that is from piece people with disabilities. Right.

I love flash of light, but like autism, all that stuff is like, "Hey, one of the most painful experiences of my life is I was labeled blank as a young person and I have self-identified as such." So for me, the part that wasn't over the line, wasn't the correction.

Rejection, it was telling him he was rude, because that's a way of being that I'm not interested in anyone ascribing to my kid. Now look, he's four. He is rude. He's a rude little motherfucker, but I think those thoughts. I'm the only one who gets to think those thought, and I don't fucking say them, you know what I'm saying? So, so that was the moment I had, and I sort of wanted your guys's thoughts on it, because I didn't, I didn' know how that really squared with my "it takes a village" mentality, and And also, like, I know we've talked about this on other shows, but like, sooner than I am ready for, I am going to be in a community with other parents when my child behaves badly.

And I want us all to be showing each other the empathy and that sense of oneness that means you can help my kid and I will help your kid.

0:12:04 Tom: Boy. Yeah.

0:12:32 Thomas: I think Eli killed her, well what was your communication during this thing, because I, you know, I have an Arlo, and there's some things he doesn't quite get, you now, like he's pretty good, but there's certain things that, you You know, sneezing might be one of them. I can't remember what I'm thinking of, but it's something like that where, you like proactive with it because, you know, because, I'm so uncomfortable about kind of being an imposition on anyone that I'm like, hey, buddy. And I'm like kind of vocally at letting someone know that we're aware of this, even if it's, you know, and I think there's been times where I'm kind of like, hey, yeah, it's something we're working working on, but you know, like in so many words, he's neuro spice, you know?

0:14:33 Eli: Right. Right.

0:14:44 Thomas: It's like, is that something like, the third time feels crazy to me. Like that's what feels the one, the first time. No, no problem on the, on the mom. I don't, I wouldn't really, I get it. That's fine. The second time I was like, okay. But the third Time is really like, okay, that's a lot. That's excessive.

0:14:59 Eli: Yeah. Third time felt like an overstep. It also felt like, uh, this kid needs a mom's touch, and again, maybe that's me projecting, but that's something that happens a lot, is like, because I spend a lot of one-on-one time with Max, more than I think most dads do, and so there's a lot like clueless dads, and so I wonder if that wasn't a part of it. Oh

0:15:19 Tom: I'm wondering if maybe you didn't bring more to this interaction than actually occurred in the interaction? Yeah Right, like, and I'm not saying that to be to be a shit, but I'm curious, like, how did Max react to her? Yeah

0:15:19 Thomas: Yeah,

0:15:25 Eli: For sure, for sure, Tom. He Didn't care at all. He was like, oh cool, yeah, like he does. You know, he's adults tell him what to do all the time. Adults just walk up to him and they're they're like, stand in line and hold this rope

0:15:36 Tom: Right. Right. But

0:15:38 Thomas: No, but I get you want to advocate for your kid, you know, like when he might not have the awareness to do so. Yeah.

0:15:42 Eli: Right. Right.

0:15:46 Tom: But I guess like, like, if your worry is really rooted in, I'm worried how Max will perceive himself, right, that's kind of what you had said before, like, and I do want to draw a distinction because I think it's actually kind of important. I think it's like that something is rude when we do it is not the same thing as labeling somebody as rude. So saying like, hey, this is rude, it is rude to do this, is not not the same thing as saying you are rude. If you say to somebody, like, you are rude, that is labeling somebody. Right. That's that I think is a I think it's kind of a stretch to identify a behavior somebody has performed, which is rude, as also being the same things as labeling them as, like, in totality, a rude person. Right? We're all rude accidentally. You know what I mean? Like, sometimes I put my fucking elbows on the table or whatever, the rules you're not supposed

0:16:06 Thomas: Well,

0:16:41 Eli: Right.

0:16:41 Tom: To do, like, doesn't mean that when I make those mistakes that I'm now a rude person and that is like a definitional part of who I am. It just means like, oh, in this moment my manners were not on point. So I think like I just kind of drawing a distinction there. I think that there's, and Max didn't really react, so like, in this scenario, like Max isn't really taking that on on board as definitional to his sense of self. So it feels like, feels very much like this is a this don't want anyone talking to my fucking kid kind of a thing which I think is its own thing it

0:16:53 Eli: No. Yeah.

0:17:13 Eli: It felt It felt that way too

0:17:15 Thomas: And as a parent That definitely feels like someone's saying you're not doing a good job like that, you know, but

0:17:20 Eli: Yeah.

0:17:22 Tom: Feels like an indictment of your parenting.

0:17:23 Eli: No.

0:17:23 Tom: Then, so this feels more like

0:17:23 Thomas: That's why I ask like What were you saying? Because like in that situation, I think I already would have been like, yeah, buddy, you gotta do the Dracula scene, to where I think it would have felt redundant redundant, but it sounds like, are you just not saying anything, or right

0:17:37 Eli: No, I did, I did the, like, yeah, yeah, you gesture in the first one, and then the second one I kind of, like, ignored it because I was already uncomfortable with it. Right I didn't like the interaction that was happening, and so I did that thing where I'm like, hey, I'm not gonna maybe. Maybe my nodding and sort of like doing the like parent-to-parent head nod thing made communicated that I want this to happen. So like, maybe this is on me. Also, how big. So I don't think I mentioned this. I was also like, how Big of a deal is the Dracula sneeze? Because maybe I had going was maybe this person has an immunocompromised kid that Max is playing with, and she's worried about Max getting the other kids sick. Like, I had a lot of those thoughts going on. I was in my head. It was also in a very short period of time it all took place in like four minutes too

0:18:22 Tom: Right. Yeah.

0:17:46 Thomas: Right. Yeah. Oh You should have just thrown a, oh, you're not allowed to do that here, you're non-allowed to correct my kid here Yeah.

0:18:29 Eli: Hey you know how to do that in here. Yeah.

0:18:30 Thomas: They don't let you. Right.

0:18:31 Eli: You should have. Yeah.

0:18:28 Tom: I think That there's like an interesting, like, intersection where, like, for me, this would have been nothing. Like, I will tell you, like, I think that like when I, because I was like you, Eli, I took my kids out all the time, just me and the kids. I did it lots and lots and lots, especially with Finn when he was littler.

It was just me in Finn, we'd go to those bounce houses, we go to the zoo, we had all these traditions that were just me me and Finn. At the very least, every Saturday he and I had time, so oftentimes Saturday and Sunday, and then sometimes during the week, depending on my work schedule. So I did a lot of like just me and the boy kind of stuff with Finn when he was little. Um, like I do get that, but I think like if somebody did this with Finn or with Eamon, I would probably not even notice it too much. I don't know that it would have, like, stuck in my craw the same way, I guess. Like, I have a feeling of that, you know, that, like, it takes a village, we were joking about before. I feel like you can't have one thing I know I would want, right, is if I had an Arlo who, like, maybe is going to sneak out of the building and run into the street, I would wants someone to intervene and grab

0:19:36 Thomas: Yeah.

0:19:36 Tom: Him, right.

0:19:37 Thomas: Fair, interesting.

0:19:37 Tom: I can't have the village only how I want it under my control and nobody knows what those expectations are but me. That's not a reasonable village for me to ask to raise kids in. Instead I'm going to to raise a kid in an imperfect village full of imperfect villagers, and I'm going to ask that we all do things with kindness, and if everybody acts with kindness, we'll work out the rest of it in payroll. It's kind of how I think about it. Right, so

0:20:03 Thomas: Well And also, sometimes there's the villager that's like, oh fuck, that's fuck that person, and then you can just kind of tell them off and leave. Burn

0:20:08 Tom: If it's not, they're not acting with kindness, it's like, all right, I'm break both your arms and legs and beat you to to death with him. Right.

0:20:12 Eli: And I love that Right. And I I have all And I've talked and I've talked on this podcast before about having moments where someone's like, I am rude and or dangerous, and I'm like, hey, hey, not as dangerous as me. Give me a kiss. You think 2016 broke your brain I'll eat you, I'll ate every bite. Num num num. So yeah, definitely, I'm, yeah, but again the thing was like, this was a nice person, and what I walked away feeling, which is why I want to talk about it on the show, is like, I walked way being like, I feel like I was

0:20:14 Thomas: This villager everyone down with them. Yeah. Murder

0:20:17 Tom: Yeah. Yep.

0:20:26 Thomas: You ever heard of the double double dragon dildo Yeah.

0:20:51 Thomas: Yeah.

0:20:51 Eli: Rude there. I also, can I say something thing, and this is me being like a little vulnerable as a kind of big dude, whenever I do anything remotely confrontational to a woman, I feel shitty. Right? Because the calculation that a lot of women have to make to male-body people is, is this person going to be violent to me? Right?

0:20:52 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. For Sure. Yeah.

0:21:14 Eli: Either verbally or physically. Like, if it was another dude, he gets to kick my ass. Now, not saying this this woman couldn't have kicked my ass. She absolutely could have. I'm just saying, societally, she is probably not as prepared to kick my ass as a guy is. Though again, capability-wise, I'm sure she could have. So like, there was also that, right? It was also like a, I don't ever feel comfortable, like, again, in a safe situation, telling a woman what's what, right. That kind of correction, given the societal balance of power there, I didn't like the vibes. I didn'T like who I was in that moment. And I didn't feel, I, I wasn't sure if I was protecting Max or if I was protecting my feelings, you know? Yeah.

0:21:14 Tom: Yeah, yeah.

0:21:57 Tom: And it's and it's tough because like you're in a position where you understand that you have this ongoing responsibility to protect and advocate for your kid all the time and it never ends and you have to do it forever. But at the same time, it's like, all right, but like, am I protecting them against anything that's actually threatening or damaging here? Or am I just reacting because I'm protective? Right. And I think there's like a big, important difference. Like we should protect our kids, but that sometimes comes into contrast with like the sort of dysfunction of being overly protective. If we're overly protective, we're not really protecting them again. So I think that's a big difference. The right kinds of harms and like our kids are going to come into contact with all kinds of people, teachers, administrators, counselors, and all of these people you're going to get good teachers and bad teachers, and we're going to have to figure out when do we step in and advocate? When do we stop? When do you step in and protect? And when are we just being protective?

0:22:54 Eli: Yeah.

0:22:54 Tom: And that like putting up that protective wall separates them from real world experiences, and they're having them anyway because we're not, oh, we're not around them all the time. And all we ever know is what's reported. So it's it's also like kind of false, do you know what I mean? Like it's like it kind of false, this idea that we're really able to be protective rather than protect.

0:23:10 Eli: Right. It was our, our parents and the kidnapping scare, right? How our parents were so sure we were going to get snatched off the street. Right. Me also, and it sort of feels related, uh, to Max's first IEP meeting, which I think I told this story on air, but like I came into to that meeting with my dukes up, right? Because I had read every horror story, I'd read every book and, you know, article online about how to advocate for your kid. And so I sort of came in being like, "And we are prepared for outside counsel should there be." And they were like, "So we'd love for him to have an aid."

And I was like, "You you trick me to lowering my duke's, man." And I remember because, and it's relevant, one because I, I had that same experience, but also because we just did his check reckon today and, like, I felt that impulse again and had to remind myself, like, hey, these people are on Max's side. And I think that lady was on Max his side. And what I worry about, what I really do worry about, all jokes aside, uh, so briefly, is Noah said something to me when I first had a kid, uh, and I was dealing with my postpartum anxiety, um, not even even a year old, and Noah saw me, you know, fretting over one thing or another.

And he said something that I think about quite a bit. He said, you knows, he's okay. All the parts at which you could like really mess him up, you haven't done, right? The thing that could mess up is he could learn that the proper way to react to life is fear. And I was like, fuck, that's real. Because that was a behavior I was exhibiting for my son a tremendous amount of his early life.

0:24:55 Eli: And was defensiveness as opposed to openness, right? And there, there is a there is, as much as I joke about it and sort of exaggerate it for the, you know, quote unquote character on my shows, there is a snobby streak in me that is used as a self-defense mechanism. I don't know, you guys probably haven't noticed it. It's so subtle, podcast listener, I know you've probably never had this thought before, but I, I, I can be a little, God, it's, it's indecipherable, so I don't know, but yeah, I, there's a sort of snobby self-protection streak in me that I feel like was a part of that. Yeah.

And I really worry one about passing it along to Max, because it's not a good quality, but two, I worry about Max missing opportunities to engage in the world in a better, healthier way, right? Because I think one of the issues that we have is, like, our parents' parents, they fucking sucked. They sucked so hard, right? They were like, "Son, it's four o'clock, it's time for your beating," right? And so they were just like, "I guess I won't do that," right? And then we were like, "Hey, maybe there's no beatings," or maybe you pay attention, or maybe, I know, notice that I have neurodivergence or whatever. The thing, I think we've fixed a lot of the things that our parents did.

Maybe my curfew isn't six o 'clock with the door being slammed shut with bars on it, right? Whatever the case might be. But I think this next level of parenting, the thing that we are coming into conflict with, or maybe it's just me, is like a lot of what I run up into as a parent are my flaws as a human being.

0:24:54 Thomas: Yeah, I got a question.

0:25:16 Tom: What?

0:25:32 Tom: Yeah. Yeah.

0:26:27 Tom: Yeah. No, dude, I, I that for sure. I feel that all the time. Like I, I myself constantly being like, I'm not sure I'm a good enough person to be doing this work. That that is, is a worry that I have had since the day I started doing this. This work and rather than get better over time, I'm like, yeah, Yeah, I've got to safeguard myself against me, because like if I just react to the way that my sort of like mind and body and like emotions want to react, sometimes I'll be like, no, that's that's fucking horribly dysfunctional. That's trash. That's that'S years of just like internalized bad shit coming out. It's like that's that's why I write as much as I do about it, because I'm like, all right, if I think about it ahead of time, then I'm less likely to behave in the moment in a way that doesn't match the sort of values I want to hold rather than the values that I emotionally hold or that I that I reactively hold. I feel that way all the time, man. Like, I get that.

0:27:17 Eli: Yeah.

0:27:23 Thomas: Guys ever intervene or do this with anyone else's kids? Like, can you think of a time that you've done anything like that?

0:27:30 Eli: Have been like some pushings, right. Right. Like when they're in the toddlery pushy phase, I'll I'll get in the mix, but never like a hey, we don't push thing. I'm usually just like, whoa, bumper. So here's my move because I do it quite a bit because, again, we're at a trampoline park. Whoa, bumper cars. And then I just sort of put myself in between that child and the younger child.

0:27:32 Thomas: You know, I had one once again, sorry to talk about this Disneyland trip, but since all I do is work, it was the one time I, you know, actually interacted with the outside world. And did you know there's an outside world out there this whole I didn't I wasn't sure how much of that was made up.

0:28:05 Tom: They close it down. They close shut down most of the time. Yeah, you got it while it was open.

0:28:07 Eli: I much better than them, so I prefer Not

0:28:09 Tom: It's fine.

0:28:08 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. And there's there's a

0:28:09 Eli: To Think of Them. No

0:28:10 Tom: Yeah.

0:28:09 Thomas: Lot of people at Disneyland to the point where I think there's like a lot. A lot of a lot people on Earth. I don't know. I'm still working it out.

0:28:14 Tom: No, that's not that.

0:28:14 Eli: I think you're I think you're incorrect. No. Did

0:28:15 Tom: That can't be the case.

0:28:16 Thomas: Maybe they all just got together there.

0:28:16 Tom: No.

0:28:17 Thomas: It was a lot. No, I couldn't. It was like so much. I couldn'T even count.

0:28:17 Eli: You count them? Did you count them? You got a raw dog, count those. Man, it's gonna be less than 20 stealing

0:28:22 Thomas: Yeah. Well, one

0:28:23 Tom: Got to bring a clicker or something

0:28:24 Thomas: Of these, um, meat puppets, one of these one these of people, what do you call people? Yeah. Uh, one of these people was, um. I had a real test.

0:28:32 Eli: My bits on air? How dare

0:28:33 Thomas: I mean, I had a real test of not intervening. I'm not like a big intervener. However, I do. Um, the reaction to my triggers that is like a close to be like, nope, you know, just like, I'm not going to physically, you know, but like if a kid does something insanely loud right around me, I can't not react like, ah, or if some or if a kid, you know, does something dangerous or is pushing or like you said, like that, that kind of stuff. I have a hard time not, you know, and I don't think I've ever done anything too crazy. I think I caught a kid once that was like running off or something, and that was, that was a good thing, the parent was really thankful, because you could tell, like, they were running away, or it was a kidnapper, actually, it might have been a kidnapper, one or the other, either

0:28:33 Eli: You? Oh

0:28:33 Tom: Statistically

0:28:54 Eli: God. Yeah.

0:29:20 Thomas: Way, they're really grateful I caught,

0:29:20 Eli: You help me change his shoes thanks so much yeah Jeff

0:29:21 Tom: It's certainly a kidnapper yeah

0:29:21 Thomas: Yeah, really, they're very grateful I got him, but no, but at Disneyland, when we sat down to eat one of the days, there was a kid having a meltdown that was so fucking bad that I, I don't know what the correct thing is probably do nothing. And if so, I somehow did nothing.

0:29:27 Eli: Everything. Call me sometime

0:29:42 Thomas: Like, I just want to recognize, I want to be recognized for my personal growth. That was somehow, yes, because this kid, my God, look, there are meltdowns where you can see like, oh, that kid, there's just something wrong with them or they're melted down. This was the perfect storm because this kid was old enough to where it was like, you shouldn't be having this much of a meltdown.

0:29:42 Eli: Purple heart Yeah.

0:30:07 Thomas: And they were clearly in control of it, like would stop for a sec and like gauge the reaction and then melt down, you know what I mean? So it was like it was all the worst possible things if a kid, if a baby's screaming if

0:30:19 Tom: It's weird that we were at Disney at the same time. I didn't know you noticed me doing that, but

0:30:22 Eli: Just start

0:30:23 Thomas: We're, if the baby's melting down, you know, whatever, if a, if a, you know, if a kids, you could tell there's, there's really something wrong. And they're crying and they're whatever. Yeah, I get it. This was like the kid was mad and it seemed like the, the who was with them was doing absolutely nothing. Absolutely nothing. And then it seemed like from a little bit of the dialogue I was picking up that maybe that wasn't the parent. And actually, the kid kid was mad.

Cause like the, the mom went to go get something and the kid, I, so it was just a situation where it was like, I actually kind of feel like this, this woman who was in charge of this absolute nightmare, maybe, maybe could have used help. Actually. I'm not totally sure, you know? Um, like, it was awful and it was so loud. It was ruining everyone's day there.

And I didn't do anything, but I wonder like, yeah, what is, what do we want or expect or what should we do? Know, cause it's a part of me was like, if that's a single mom, for example, I I could have advertised my services. Hey, do you need, um, a dude?

0:31:24 Eli: Carnival barking, male services here male services yelling loud

0:31:26 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Hey, I'll get mad around your kid and they'll probably stop being a shit because they're more afraid of men just 'cause that's how kids are. Yeah.

0:31:30 Eli: Loud boomy voice loud boamy voice So I actually had exactly this experience back when I worked at the magic shop. I, so I worked with this guy, his name was Noah, and he's the softest spoken mother, different guy Different Noah Uh softest

0:31:46 Thomas: Oh, okay. I thought this was a great bit.

0:31:49 Eli: Spoken motherfucker you have ever met, like almost a whisper, and one of those guys who would, he was so thoughtful, he would pause after you spoke before he spoke, but not in the irritating way, right? He, you would speak and he would sort of nod and think and then respond. It was fucking cool, and we had. Yeah.

0:32:00 Thomas: That's impossible. What is he, Jesus? How did you fucking...

0:32:08 Eli: Very Jesus-like. If you wanted a guy to play Jesus last minute and you were willing to do a wig, you know, as your man. So Noah and I worked together, we're at the magic shop, and the, the kid there's two kids, teenage daughter, young nerdy child about to ruin his life by having magic as a hobby. Younger child's having a great time. Teenage daughter is having a bad time. And her and mom sort of start to snippet each other back and forth. And then at some point, the teenage girl like gets kind of loud, right? And it gets uncomfortable in the room and then they quiet down in a second. And then she gets kind aloud again. And Noah, this sweet spoken Christ of Nazareth just turns to her and goes, "Hey, this is a place of business. Can't act like that in here." And I was just like, oh. And everyone, girl, everybody, because it's literally the, the bookcase might as well have lent her a gentle fucking correction. It was fucking banana. It's, it is where the influence for "you're not allowed to do this in here" came from is watching him say

0:32:57 Thomas: Oh, wow.

0:33:09 Eli: That one yeah it's

0:33:09 Thomas: I'd like to

0:33:08 Tom: Oh it's the genesis of you're not allowed to do this in here

0:33:10 Thomas: Shake that man's

0:33:11 Eli: The exactly shake that man's hand with a hole in it. Yeah.

0:33:11 Thomas: Hand. And then you noticed there were two sets of

0:33:14 Eli: You beat me. Yes.

0:33:14 Thomas: Footprints. Yeah. I don't

0:33:17 Eli: Exactly yeah

0:33:18 Tom: Well, me turn the question a little bit on its head though. Like Like, I, because don't, I can't think of a time when I intervened with a kid that I didn't know or parents that I didn't know, but part of that is because I try not to spend time around other people and their kids. I don't like them. But

0:33:34 Thomas: Think that's turning the question on its head. I think that was just answering the question, Tom.

0:33:36 Tom: No, no, but I certainly have done it for family kids, like like friends like like, like if I had a friend that had a kid or family members that had had a kid, like without any hesitation, without even a second thought, I would be like, "Hey bud, that's not how we do that here." Or "Hey, cover up buddy." You know, like I would do that in a second. Nope. I wouldn't even think about not doing that. And I would not only would I want that, I would kind of expect that from somebody that I was close to. Like I would, if I was in a space and my kid was like behaving in a way that like we all know should garner some kind of help, I would expect and want my people that love me to help and to and to not just be like, well, looks like your kids, your kid, you know, fucking sucks to suck. Right. Like, so

0:33:39 Thomas: Yeah that's a, yeah well

0:34:22 Eli: Truly.

0:34:22 Tom: I wonder, I wonder what do you think of that? Like, what about family or family intervenes or friends that have kids intervene?

0:34:28 Eli: Oh, see, family, I'm all about it. Family, I am like, yeah get in there, tackle him, tackle him to the ground, tell him to stop resisting, like whatever you want to do. I feel very

0:34:34 Tom: So it's not the thing that was said.

0:34:37 Eli: No.

0:34:38 Tom: So that, so I think that that's, that's why I think, think that's an important question, because it's not the thing that was said, it's who gets to say it. Okay, would

0:34:45 Eli: Yes.

0:34:46 Thomas: That's interesting because for me it was the amount of times, like, the first one I would have had pretty much no problem with whatsoever, but three times, like, it just, if you know kids, like, if you have to tell a kid something three times in a short time, they're not getting it. There's no, you know, like, there's No Point to that. That means they are at the very least, there's NO Point in calling them rude, like it's not, it's NOT something that that kid can consciously change easily. Otherwise they would have done it. So it's like that. The repetition is what gets me, I guess, in that situation.

0:35:18 Eli: Yeah.

0:35:18 Tom: You have had the same reaction to it, then. You would, you think you would have the same reaction too if that was family or a friend, then?

0:35:23 Thomas: I would have been more annoyed, I think. Cause family, I would, yeah. Family, I'd have been like, Hey, it's your third time in a minute. Like you, he's not getting it. Like we're working on it. There's no, what are you piling on for? It's not going to help. Know, like if, if you're going to intervene, fine, but make sure you're fucking polite every time. Make sure you, make sure you're gentle parenting every time.

0:35:25 Tom: Yeah. Right.

0:35:42 Thomas: You know what I mean? Oh,

0:35:42 Eli: See, it is weird because I have the opposite impulse. I would be much more forgiving of a family mistake. And again, I don't know that this was a mistake, but if it was a mistake I would much more forgiven because I would be like, this person's on my team, they love my kid, right? Like we all

0:35:56 Thomas: You think of your family positively, that was the thing.

0:35:57 Eli: Yes. I was gonna say that might be the, uh, the difference maker there. Oh,

0:35:59 Thomas: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Gotcha.

0:36:01 Tom: Yeah. I think that, what's so interesting about this though, because it, because I think what, what that question kind of reveals to some degree is that it's less about what's being said and it's very much about who has a right to say it. For you, Eli, right? So I think if the same things were said, and maybe this isn't true, but let's say, let's say you and I were hanging out and Max was there and I said the same things, I'm, I'm not sure you'd appreciate that, but I'm not sure you to react to it the same way as a stranger.

0:36:02 Thomas: The

0:36:29 Eli: I think I would appreciate it, I think, because, because we, again, in my dads group, like, the dads have stepped in with Max, I've seen those, and I've stepped in with their kids, right? We feel there is very much that comfort in my dad friend group, and when I felt it, it's felt like an extraordinarily positive moment for me, right? Because I'm like, oh wow, like you want to be part of the net, right? I think my worry is, I was like, I don't know that this lady wants to be a part of it.

0:36:41 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Well, And I tend to agree, I think. Like there's a, there's like, but what I think is, it is, there's a level of trust that you have to build in order for somebody to interact with your kid in a corrective way, and even if they've done a good job, I think, like, what I'm kind of understanding here is, like, I'm not sure I would appreciate them doing even a good job as a stranger, because I don't trust that they're going to do a good jab next time. I don't know where their heart is on this. I don't know this person, so like it's

0:36:54 Thomas: Sandra Bullock film. Yeah. Well,

0:36:57 Eli: So

0:37:21 Thomas: That's what I was kind of asking, like, what would it take for you to intervene in some other kid's situation, you know, like what, what would het actually take? Yeah.

0:37:28 Eli: Yeah.

0:37:29 Tom: Well, I certainly, like, I think we all agree we'd intervene if there was, like, a health or safety risk, right? All of us, right, now would run out and grab a kid and make sure they didn't run into the street, right? So, so then there's some scale back from there where we would stop and be like, because they, you know, I will say, like, I'm thinking of, like, when I used to go to those bounce houses with Fin, and there were kids that were like too rambunctious, too rough, too kind of, you know, just jazzed up at the experience, and I thought they were acting badly, I would just be like, and sometimes I would tell Finn, like, those kids suck, we're gonna go to a different slide, you know. I didn't intervene with the other kids.

0:37:34 Eli: Right. Yeah.

0:37:36 Thomas: Yeah,

0:38:04 Tom: I would just intervene with my kid, and I would just be like, yep, and I'd be like, I know.

0:37:59 Thomas: That's a very that's very me thing. Yeah, loudly.

0:38:07 Tom: I said it like, no, those kids suck. We're out of here, you know.

0:38:08 Thomas: Yeah.

0:38:09 Eli: No, I'll passively aggressively be like, some kids don't want to play with us, Max. Hard eye contact. Yeah, no, for sure. In fact, for my parenting story this week. We've got to get wrapping up, but for my parenting story this week, I can tell you about a health and safety time I intervened and it didn't go so well.

0:38:27 Thomas: Oh, very interesting.

0:38:36 Eli: Gentlemen, what plants like Halloween the most? Bamboo!

0:38:43 Tom: Oh my god, okay.

0:38:48 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:39:29 Thomas: I know you hate being corrected. So, yeah, I

0:39:31 Eli: Yeah the Budweiser horse didn't cross the finishline is that yes

0:39:34 Thomas: No, no, I mean, you might... No, I was going to the next thing. You may love the

0:39:36 Tom: Budweiser horse from Brooklyn? Is it the brooklyn budweiser horse

0:39:38 Eli: Exactly bumper cars. And

0:39:38 Tom: Oh