WTW61: That Time Jon Ronson Both Sides'ed Trans People's Lives

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:03 Clip: What's so scary about the woke mob, how often you just don't see them coming.

0:00:11 Clip: Anywhere you see diversity, equity, and inclusion, you see Marxism, and you see woke principles being pushed.

0:00:19 Clip: Wokeness is a virus more dangerous than any pandemic hands down. The woke monster is here, and it's coming for everything, everything, everything, and everything. Instead of go -go boots, the seductress green M &M will now wear sneakers.

0:00:41 Thomas: And welcome to Where There's Woke. This episode 61, but Thomas, that's Lydia. How, how you doing?

0:00:47 Lydia: I am doing pretty well. Just so excited we've been getting these out.

0:00:51 Thomas: And I'm particularly excited for this one. I just want to tell everyone that Lydia did such a phenomenal job with this. This know, it's funny. I, as I was editing, I realized I said, this was the worst both sides, which is actually, it is both. Had made the point in the previous one that like, oh, this is not the most consequential both sides thing, but it is the worst. And then in this one, I had forgotten that I had said, no, this is the worst bow sizing, like four times.

0:01:17 Thomas: And I don't, I actually, it's a tie. I can't actually decide. They're both so bad. This one is terrible, has a couple of different bow sides that are horrible and is the most harmful. So, you know, I feel like this one takes the cake. This one probably deserves a bit of a content note. This is John Ronson, both sides in trans people in way that's a really, really irresponsible and just want a heads up that we're going to hear from anti -trans bigots and we're going to here a lot of bullshit. Uh, but you know, don't worry. You're going also going to me yelling about it back when my voice wasn't shitty. So, So, you know, um, so trade off there, loud volume, but, uh, clearer quality voice. Cause I wasn't sick back then, is truly frustrating. This is one where, as I was editing back, I was like, God, I'm, I're more mad again. I'm this isn't accidental.

0:02:12 Thomas: It's not accidental. This one is very intentional. Let's see. So I've got my content note. An I've audio note for the audio minded people. Did actually pipe this in kind of accidentally mono. I I don't know why I did that. I just like the track I armed to listen into it was mono. And so it does sound a bit weird, but honestly, he, produces that podcast pans stuff too much and I get tired of it anyway. So I'm kind of glad, but it does make some of the like spacey stuff phase cancel. So anyway, it sounds a little off, but like just letting you know, that's why.

0:02:41 Lydia: Something today. Also, before we get started, a huge shout out to Ian Pinovich for gathering transcripts, essentially, of all the episodes for us so we wouldn't have to keep listening to this over and over and again with Jon Ronson. We could kind of just look at the transcript instead and piece together how we were going to put together this entire series. So thanks, Ian. You're the best.

0:03:04 Thomas: We've never said Ian's name so it could be Pinovich or something. Who knows?

0:03:08 Lydia: Let me know.

0:03:11 Thomas: Whoever you are.

0:03:13 Lydia: You a lot to us.

0:03:14 Thomas: That was super helpful. Yeah yeah it's amazing. Here's another thing I want to say. This transphobic stuff and this medical misinformation that you're going to hear, John, be too cowardly to endorse, but but like help, definitely help it along. It's wrong. It's incorrect. It's harmful. Some of you, I don't know how many people listening will have any sympathy for the turf point of view, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's some people who might feel a little bit unsure about certain things. And I did want to say that one of the things that the turf side is using really effectively is this CAS report. That came out of the UK. And it's, it's fucking frustrating that we live in these, this kind of world where the side that is just objectively incorrect has power and the ability to put out a fucking bullshit report. That's completely wrong, but because it has the word report in it and seen in like, you found someone to put their name on it. That like is someone who, who has like some credentials and then they, they all go to bat for it. They all talk about it like this cast report was this bombshell, blah, blah. I'm bringing it up because it wasn't, it's lies. It's absolutely lies. And we have a good serious inquiries only, uh, happened was some actual people who know what the fuck they're talking about did a kind of a reply report, that um, just is outlines all the ways the cast report is just lies, uh. Or just incorrect or war out of context of all those things. And so if that's something you've heard of the cast report and you're worried about it you you worry about in the sense that like oh what if the you know what if the turfs are right about anything you don t need to worry about they re not right about anything they re completely wrong this is medical misinformation and soonish ll have the SIO out the serious inquiries only out to really help drive that case yeah right final teaser before getting to the episode. Remember how in the Judy episodes, the last thing we played was a video that Lydia found that basically completely undercuts the entire thing. Yeah. Well, Lydia found a bombshell for this one that is so fucking

0:05:14 Thomas: Good. It might be better than that. And it's, I can't even believe it. And so just as a, just as teaser, you know, look forward forward to that. Look forward to another massive, I can't fucking believe that I'm hearing what I'm hearing because Lydia found the perfect bombshell video too. can'T wait for y 'all to hear that. Uh, I hope you enjoy it. So here we go. Content note for transphobic fucking shit. But here it is, the episode about two episode five of Things Fell Apart I hun, so time to talk about episode 5 of Things Fell Apart. And this is one that was so bad and so frustrating that only is this the the second recording we're doing on

0:05:58 Lydia: Yeah.

0:05:58 Thomas: This, which never happens like that almost never happens, but it was like, can't, we we didn't get it all in the first one, but is so much that I think we have to just go through it. Otherwise, we're going to be frustrated that we didn't call back to that one point or we didn't say that one thing.

0:06:10 Thomas: And we were so overwhelmed with things to say that I Think that's the best way to frame this and the best Way to go through It.

0:06:16 Lydia: Make sure sure we don't miss anything.

0:06:18 Thomas: Exactly. And so I expect we'll be here about five hours going through. It's a 36 minute episode. So, you know, multiply it out.

0:06:27 Lydia: You go with like gam rules, right? And how long it's going to be. Yeah.

0:06:29 Thomas: Oh, God. Yeah. Okay where what do we need to know to set this up right

0:06:34 Lydia: Right. To set this up, this title of the episode. Episode five is Things Weren't Going Back to Normal. The tagline when you open up like your podcast player, there's just a very quick, you tagline on the main page. And it says, a family schism is co -opted by powerful culture warriors yeah

0:06:52 Thomas: I was just going to add I had written down in my notes from episode four I have written down play for Lydia how he previewed this episode so let me go to the episode prior while we're at while we'RE here while we 'Re doing it we're we're being thorough. Lest we mischaracterize this. Let's see how this next episode is sold on the previous episode, episode four, Spicy Brando.

0:07:02 Lydia: While we're here okay thorough

0:07:16 Clip: On Things Fell Apart, the story of how a difficult relationship between a mother and her child that fell apart during lockdown was inflamed by politicians and journalists, powerful culture warriors with vested interests. Some of the people at school decided that her daughter was really a boy and wanted to identify as a boy. So they changed her name. They changed her, quote, pronouns. They did these things without telling the mother.

0:07:51 Thomas: My mind is blown by how slow that is at 1x speed. I can't even, I can't even think about it. I've been listening to this at like 10.5 speed or, or even just at least like 1.6 something. And this is so slow. My brain can't even hear it. Right, So I want to keep this framing in mind. I uh went to the transcripts that were so generously uh given to us by Ian uh help of some AI and I just want to keep this framing in mind before we even start so this is is the previous episode selling this current episode we're going to be on. It says the story of how a difficult relationship between a mother and her child that fell apart during lockdown was inflamed by politicians and journalists, powerful culture warriors with vested interests. Okay. We'll keep that in mind.

0:07:53 Lydia: My god sure yeah just say I have no idea who the journalist is that he's talking about there's

0:08:40 Thomas: Yeah, sorry to spoilers for you folks, but there's no journalists than this one that it could even be talking about but well okay sorry

0:08:44 Lydia: Not a journalist yeah then the summary on the podcast player itself says how an argument between a mother and her teenage daughter during lockdown led governor ron desantis to enact new and far -reaching laws in Florida. So I think it's interesting, just to kind of start this here, that the way that he previews the episode and the way that that like high level tagline is, he says, you know, culture warriors and, you Know, kind of approaches it in this sort of broad, you can't really tell like what he's thinking there. And then like, once you click in, he only calls out Ron DeSantis here, which is strange I don't know what's happening um with this but

0:09:27 Thomas: In that like right away the listeners will know assuming they don't know any of what we're talking about and they haven't heard this how a schism between a mother and her teenage daughter during lockdown contributed to governor ron desantis enacting So like, as you say, all very passive voice, except the only, you active person in there is Ron DeSantis. For all we know, it's just a schism. So there's some sort of schism, we don't know what that is. Passive voice, you I don't know if that's technically passive voice but it's like there's no description of what anyone's doing except for Ron DeSantis. I think that's interesting.

0:09:33 Lydia: When he enacts yeah mm -hmm okay should we just press play let's

0:10:03 Thomas: Shall we jump in? I have to do this at least 1.2. I'm so sorry. This might make it too fast for the listeners who listen to us at 10 point whatever, but I can't, I will die. We will never finish the episode. So I'm doing 1.22.

0:10:11 Lydia: Do it okay OK.

0:10:16 Thomas: That's just how it's going to be. You're lucky I don't do higher okay

0:10:20 Clip: From BBC Radio 4, this is Things Fell Apart, Season 2.

0:10:29 Clip: Teachers were being trained that parents in this area are a danger to their children. I was not a danger for my child. This story is about a difficult relationship between a parent and her child, one that fell apart during lockdown, and how it was weaponised by a politician in his quest for power. It's about how two sets of equally held convictions collided with each other. But

0:10:56 Thomas: Sets of equally held convictions interesting okay huh

0:11:01 Lydia: The first uh of this episode we hear from someone named Brandon Wolfe um Wolffe is is a survivor of the Pulse nightclub shooting. And when he lived in Florida, he worked for Equality Florida, and that's going to be important a little bit later. Since then, he has moved on to human rights campaigns. So he's over there now as the national press secretary. He is, a you Black and queer man in America. We hear about his experience of of moving to Florida, finding community, and what it felt like to have that community impacted and lose people that were very close to him because of the Pulse nightclub shooting.

0:11:42 Thomas: Very gut -wrenching I and and I credit to Ronson and the show for putting this part of it on I do really appreciate telling that story I mean it's horror it's it's really horrifying to listen to I think I'll just start kind of where where he summarizes what happened essentially um credit to that but I do just want to note that like in terms of the both sides and we're doing um good that we're hearing from what's ostensibly the not anti -queer side I guess you know like um again we've been we've been told we've set up by john ronson that happened in this overall all episode that we haven't even gotten to yet is something that resulted from two sides tearing this relationship apart you know two sides yeah equally held convictions uh appreciate that he has given some time to this man's story and yet nothing that he said has anything to do with the central issue really so like if you had a climate change debate and then you just asked the, the actual scientists about his background and like, how'd you get into this whole thing? Hmm. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, now let's go to the other side to hear why climate change is a hoax. It's like,

0:12:23 Lydia: Equally held convictions. Yeah, right.

0:12:47 Thomas: Well, okay. Gave equal time, I guess, but like not really. So it's kind of like that.

0:12:47 Lydia: Yeah but not opportunity to speak to the same issue.

0:12:55 Thomas: Yeah, and a bit of an exaggeration to bring up the climate change thing. But that's kind of what it's like. It's a little weird to me that we don't hear, and we'll go through the whole fucking episode. We don't really hear much of his side of the, by the way, the correct side of these arguments. So we can pick up kind that story he tells, and then we can get into, I think, the central story of the episode.

0:13:18 Clip: Four years later, and 250 miles away in Tallahassee, Florida, a family called the Little Johns were trying to make the best out of lockdown, unaware that their lives and Brandon's would soon collide, and many other lives would get impacted as a result. At the beginning in Florida, the lockdown rules were pretty strict, right, at the very beginning. What was that like? We just really tried to make it silly so that the kids weren't scared. This is January Little John, a stay -at -home mother of three. We would have dress -up Friday where I would dress up in a costume. But after that two weeks was up and we slowly started to realise that things weren't going to go back to normal, that's when my daughter's mental health started to really deteriorate. January means her oldest daughter, then aged 13. We've had no contact with her daughter during the making of this programme. January says she's very protective over her privacy. And so we only have January's telling of the story to go on.

0:13:31 Thomas: Interesting. Yeah. Major caveat, I would say.

0:14:17 Lydia: Yeah, and I will note that her daughter is probably 17 right now, so I don't know what's going to happen when she turns 18, if she'll come out and share her story herself or if she's moved on. I have no idea.

0:14:33 Thomas: I feel like if she wanted to, she probably could have, right? I mean, who knows?

0:14:37 Lydia: I don't know. This

0:14:40 Clip: And something else was worrying January. The culture her daughter was starting to enjoy. My daughter had difficulty fitting in. She's extremely naturally artistic, and when she initially started sixth grade, she found a friend group that seemed to be interested in the same quirky books and activities that she was. What kind of books? A lot of fantasy. They were just, you know, quirky books like Wings of Fire, Warrior Cats, just books that maybe other kids aren't necessarily into. To. We were thrilled and we were excited that she was making friends and they all seemed to get along well but then we started to see some red flags. Because of lockdown parents were becoming more privy to what their children were doing online in their virtual classrooms and their social lives too.

0:15:31 Thomas: I just do want to note that like she started with some very normal school struggles especially as someone with ADHD I'll tell you you don't need to be on lockdown to have those issues I couldn't do just normal homework on the computer I had the same problem I

0:15:45 Lydia: Well middle school is a big shift to when you're talking about homework from you know like elementary school so

0:15:51 Thomas: Is extremely normal whatever like not not a big deal especially with someone with adhd and then she like is linking that so that's like in your mind you know in the listeners mind we're for primed like things are going wrong here you know and then the crowd she started hanging out with is reading these fantasy novels or something just interesting interesting

0:16:14 Clip: January's daughter and her friends like other fans of warrior cats were speculating on which of the warrior cats might be gay or non -binary or trans. And most if not all all of these children had no romantic experience, but yet all of them were identifying as some identity in the LGBTQ spectrum. So it ranged from bisexuality to pansexual to gay, and then those slowly started to morph into the transgender identities.

0:16:43 Lydia: We got to stop here now oh my gosh okay so I'm someone who was you know 12 and 13 I think think that this is very normal exploration as a 12 -year -old, 13 -year old kid. Um, is something where like, you back at how I played with my American Girl dolls when I was 12 versus how I paid with them when I I was eight. Like it definitely shifts that that you engage with play, the things that you're exploring, the topics that you're engaging with your friends about. All is very, very normal.

0:17:18 Thomas: Yeah,

0:17:19 Lydia: I don't really get why this was a big red flag for the little Johns. I don't understand it yeah

0:17:25 Thomas: It's completely very normal stuff being told like an afterschool special, like there your children speculating about the sexuality of cartoon characters or whatever, book characters. Who cares? I the other thing that's frustrating about this whole thing is that we just have absolutely no other version of the story at all. Can't really do that. I'll be honest with you. I think that with something like this, which as people can already tell, this is an anti -trans bullshit thing happening.

0:17:55 Thomas: With something that important, I don't actually think you Can Just Tell One Side of the Story. I think you need to be like all right well we better find a different parent or a different you know like yeah find someone where we're able to speak well they probably wouldn't but like find someone where maybe somebody who is now 18 who's willing to talk about it there's plenty of trans people in the country I think what is really bothering me about this series is how much the the effort to both sides stuff compromises journalism in

0:18:05 Lydia: Or speak to the school or yeah yeah mm -hmm mm

0:18:25 Thomas: A few ways. Like for one it's so desperate to tell the right wing side of it that you're kind of don't really care who you talk to as long as they talk to you and have a interesting story to the point where it's like, we can't verify it really does friend. Is identifying as some non like straight sexuality, like pan or every one of them and she even points out they have no sexual experience okay well then what does it fucking matter that sounds like just a like they're playing or a label they're putting on something

0:18:49 Lydia: Well or exploration right like like trying to figure out like their place in the world is and how they want to engage in the and experimenting very very very normal well

0:19:02 Thomas: What are the stakes of this and furthermore when it comes to those characters and all that that she presents is this horrible thing it's like you look honestly I can't be the only uh who um the clothes off of barbies as a little kid like

0:19:16 Lydia: And that's what I was getting to with my American Girl doll example. I played with them in a very particular way when I was younger. And then when I wasn't, you know, middle school and stuff, my friends and I started engaging with them in separate ways.

0:19:28 Thomas: Yeah it's like yeah that's what humans do and if it's as long as it's straight coded or whatever like then it's whatever, it doesn't matter that like, you know, little girl are just making the the doll naked and doing all that stuff, but if it's two Ken dolls, holy shit, we've got an epidemic. We've got a social epidemic going on.

0:19:46 Lydia: I'm sorry, like fan fiction, right? The whole spectrum of fan fiction that you get from kids all over the country, it's not, you Know, just adults writing A lot of it is young kids kind of experimenting with their favorite characters and changing things and having it combine in different ways and stuff. You my sister wrote a lot of fan fiction and it's never like I'm going to preserve, you know, what has been told in this story like Harry Potter.

0:20:14 Thomas: Man, he, he passed up on a really good tie -in because the whole Stephanie Meyer thing was the fan fiction for whatever, wasn't it? Am I remembering that right? Or am I mixing up things? Yeah. Twilight. Oh no. Oh, so wait, the fan fiction of Twilight was Fifty Shades of Grey. Is that what it is?

0:20:21 Lydia: Yeah twilight oh no are you thinking 50 shades of gray yeah yeah

0:20:30 Thomas: Oh, okay. So nevermind. Not quite the tie -on. I don't know. Worth mentioning. It ties together as much as this backstory that we skipped over that, like, happens to share the same town as something else. Yeah.

0:20:37 Lydia: Poor brandon wolf yeah yeah

0:20:41 Thomas: This is nothing. This is not at all a concern. Who cares? So far is what. But it's being presented like it's this really, you concerning thing. Just a concerned parent here. I wonder why she's so concerned.

0:20:54 Clip: And now an important new battlefront in an already ferocious culture war was about to begin right there in January's house, with January's daughter coming to her parents with some news.

0:21:07 Clip: So the lockdown happened in March of 2020 and she came to her father and eye in May. And she said she didn't feel like a girl. And we were completely caught off guard. Several of her friends had come out as gender fluid or non -binary. And I think I even said to her at one point, statistically, this is impossible. Transgender identities are very rare. And she was just very flippant about it. Oh, well, so -and -so just changed his name. She would use the the proper pronouns that the child wanted. Panicked, January started to Google.

0:21:43 Lydia: Statistically this is impossible can't be I and I think this is one of the things where like you gravitate towards friends that might be similar to you in ways that you don't even understand yet uh sounds pretty normal to me too yeah

0:21:46 Thomas: Impossible. Can't be. Yeah. Yeah. Plus, I just want to remind everybody what are what are the fucking stakes? Like I get it. Look, I could see being and if this is all true, which I doubt it even is, but let's, for sake of argument, say, okay, she's got a friend group and they've all taken on a different trans identity. Yeah, no, that's alarming. Interesting, but like you say, it could be that, for all we know, she is the legitimate trans person and all of her friends are just going along with her, for All We Know. You don't know because you apparently aren't close enough with your child to have actually had her or him, I don't know what pronouns to use, I guess, come to you with this in a way probably like sooner, you know, in a way like earlier in the process, maybe. I don' t know.

0:22:43 Lydia: I, I think her characterizing being completely caught off guard, I think that's fair. I think that there are plenty of instances in which kids are going through something and don't tell their parents from day one right and eventually it's built up to a point We're now, okay, I'm going to go up to my parent and come out or speak to them about what I'm feeling, what I'M thinking. And so I think that's a perfectly reasonable response from January Littlejohn and her husband to feel like, whoa, where is this coming from?

0:23:18 Thomas: -hmm.

0:23:19 Lydia: But what follows after that is what matters. I cannot imagine a world where I would say, wait, this is statistically impossible, saying that to one of our kids when they're trying to come to us and open up about something that they're going through. I don't. I mean, that's anti -trans rhetoric beginning there.

0:23:37 Thomas: When I was a kid, I was so sure like, oh, I bet I could make it to the NBA. Forget that I couldn't even like, start you on my fifth grade basketball team, but I was going to make it to the NBA. I remember my parents being like, yes, no, you're not this possible. Look at the statistics. And it's like, that was kind of a bummer. I don't really know why that's necessary. Like, even if let's pretend this is a completely pretend thing that January's child is going through and it's all pretend. Pretend. Fucking cares, man? Like, be supportive in case it's not, by the way. Maybe it isn't pretend.

0:24:10 Thomas: Approach it like that. Whatever. No thought There's crime law against being skeptical. Like, whatever. If you feel like your you know your kid and your kid isn't this identity, keep those thoughts to yourself. It's fine. You have them. Whatever.

0:24:09 Lydia: There yeah yeah

0:24:22 Thomas: And then, like, there's just no low stakes. There're no stakes to this. This doesn't matter. We're not talking about surgeries or anything like that. She's just talked about pronouns and maybe wanting to shift how she's identifying at school, right?

0:24:22 Lydia: Yes yeah we'll we will get there okay

0:24:41 Clip: Was unaware of non -binary and gender fluid and transmasculine. And if you Google, I think we're up to 72 different identities to choose from. Children are being that

0:24:51 Lydia: You gotta stop it there because like literally okay I'm gonna google right now google .com how

0:24:54 Thomas: It's so funny. Many identities are we up to to choose from is what you got.

0:24:58 Lydia: Many transgender identities are there.

0:25:03 Thomas: I think Google should just be like, dude, why are you asking that? Who fucking, whatever.

0:25:06 Lydia: MedicineNet .com is where she's getting her 72.

0:25:10 Thomas: Medicine net.

0:25:10 Lydia: Medicine Net is her source from what I can tell here. All 72 genders list. And it includes, you variety of things. Affectu gender, gender aesthetic gender Amara gender like there's right

0:25:26 Thomas: I've never heard of any of this. Look, it's so so ridiculous. It's so fucking absurd.

0:25:27 Lydia: Also we're up to who's

0:25:32 Thomas: Yeah. We're up to, I think it's like, you know, the periodic table of elements. They're like, some of these genders only exist for like a fraction of a second in the lab, but they're like we've discovered another one. We hit 72.

0:25:32 Lydia: The we like like the country the world right right that's exactly what it is that exists in the world

0:25:46 Thomas: Yeah. It was a nice round number. Someone identified as it and then disappeared like right away in the lap. Yeah,

0:25:49 Lydia: It's just ignorant I mean like that comment specifically is like okay so you're just ignorant about this entire issue yeah

0:25:57 Thomas: Yeah and here's the thing. We have we have we know so many trans people like to your point of the people seek out the people that they whatever, like so many people in, you the atheism movement, the skepticism movement or just like left wing podcasting. Like a lot of these things go together where the kinds of people, yeah, progress is it's a lot of things going, you it's not a one -to -one obviously, but it's a lot of like sort of probability clouds of people who, yeah.

0:26:14 Lydia: Yeah venn

0:26:23 Thomas: Tend to find comfort in, uh, parasocial relationships. Maybe if they're isolated in a queer identity in a place where people don't accept them, like for whatever reason, um for, I think for those reasons, there's like Like, so many trans people in our audience that we know. And I have never heard of any of these things, like, these identities. For the most part, like it's, yeah, it's non -binary or it's people identifying as a woman or a man. And that's for the most parts it, you know, like I, that covers, I don't know, 90 something percent of all people that I've ever heard of about this, you are pretty easy to comprehend. Like, I didn't take that long to figure out what any of that meant, right? Am

0:26:22 Lydia: Diagrams and yeah yeah it's unsafe yeah yeah oh

0:27:01 Thomas: I crazy? I mean, I can't think of anyone I've ever met who I, I mean I'm sure there's somebody, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but like just trying to use this list of 72 things as though, yeah, as though like that's what it is. Like if you meet a trans person, there's like an equal probability there are any of those 72.

0:27:12 Lydia: It is a scare tactic yeah when I yeah it literally is a way to say you will never understand your kid if you let them be trans because they could be one of these 72 things they could change their mind at any point in time this is not a real thing right very dangerous rhetoric that I think she's being very careful about how she's presenting in this environment

0:27:43 Thomas: Of course, yeah. We're up to 72. too.

0:27:47 Clip: You can be a boy, a girl, neither or both. I mean, literally anything goes.

0:27:50 Lydia: There you go there's four that's

0:27:52 Clip: You have children starting to identify as parts of animals called furries. And as

0:27:56 Lydia: Not what that is

0:27:55 Thomas: No, that's not. Yeah. I, okay. I don't know much about any of this, but I believe I pointed this out to you that that's what furries are. Furries don't identify.

0:28:09 Lydia: I'm aware.

0:28:09 Thomas: Yeah, oh Lydia's a furry everybody. I forgot if I told. No there's like there's two different things. Isn't there other kind or something? I don' know. There's like two different thing she's combining there. She's mixing them up I think but like they're furries aren't trans am I am I crazy we

0:28:23 Lydia: I think we have some furry listeners, too, and would love to hear your take on being considered as, you know, that you're part animal.

0:28:26 Thomas: Probably do oh my god I'm just realizing I haven't yet done january little john run through the forest and then the tie -in with the that cartoon causing the like the most uh furry identifying that there's ever just because yeah robin hood's hot and the what's her name is made marion's hot they're both hot like all a tiny percentage furry just based on that movie everybody like

0:28:38 Lydia: Robin hood made marion's hot yeah I what I said movie lion king please I been doing this for years that

0:28:57 Thomas: But I genuinely please educate me if I'm wrong I didn't think furries were trans I okay okay just making sure

0:29:03 Lydia: Also my understanding standing yeah

0:29:05 Clip: A parent when you're trying to get information very little comes up other than you need to affirm and that not affirming is harmful and could even lead to suicide we

0:29:16 Thomas: I just loved it when as a parent when you're trying to google misinformation to tell you the things you already want to hear or it's hard to find anything other than the accurate medical information.

0:29:17 Lydia: It could yeah well if she's on medicine net .com like trying to find like how to support my child or convince her she's not

0:29:33 Thomas: All the sources of legitimate medicine were telling me that I need to like reinforce my child's trans identity and accept them for who they are. Otherwise, there's a danger that, you know, real danger.

0:29:45 Lydia: Connect them to resources so then they can have those conversations with trained professionals because my role as a parent is to be supportive supportive and love my kid no matter what.

0:29:47 Thomas: So funny. God. Yeah. And who knows if any of our kids happen to be trans, who knows exactly the process and how that will go. So obviously we'll accept them, but you get that. Like we're we're, the wokest of woke here. I get That like, don'T want to shame parents for having a difficult time with this. And I think that's very important because this the right will point out, and they're not wrong, that a lot of this is incredibly new to them. It's incredibly new. To like normies. It's not new. You know, it's the

0:30:23 Lydia: Not new in the world, but yeah.

0:30:24 Thomas: Most of this has been around forever. But like to comment, sort of normies to like your run of the mill, you meat and potatoes American.

0:30:32 Lydia: Traditional.

0:30:33 Thomas: Yeah. Like this is new. Very new to then. Them and they their point of view they've been shown a very new weird thing to them that they've also been told the stakes are incredibly high because if they don't affirm their their major consequences and that's all true it's I'm not saying we shouldn't say that that's all true but like I I think that this has been a very effective issue a wedge issue to draw people to the right and so what I would like to do is if there I don't know if any of our listeners would If there are any listeners who are like, well, I'm on the left, but like, you know, I think, skeptical of this particular issue. Like people get, we have seen how many people have been pulled hard right by this exact issue.

0:30:45 Lydia: If you get this wrong. Yeah yeah yeah

0:31:13 Thomas: People who have written novels that have sold bajillions of bazillions of dollars. People have more money that you're, they're definitely not grifters, you know? .K. Rowling. She's not a grifter. She She has more money. She has all the money. There's no more money to do. There are people who otherwise might be pretty much lefties who were sucked into the rabbit hole on this issue. And so all I want to say is I have all the empathy in the world for not really knowing, especially if you're not super woke, especially if You're like centristy, whatever, not understanding what's going on here, being a little skeptical, being a little worried, but you can be skeptical and worried and still be a good parent. You

0:31:13 Lydia: Mm believing

0:31:51 Thomas: Could be skeptical and worried and still treat your child like give them the dignity of like taking them seriously you know and trying to uh express any reservations you might have in a healthier way or or not express them I don't know I again I haven't it kind of depends on the facts yeah if it does look like literally they just are came out of nowhere to you if that's what it feels like to you I understand you're going to be skeptical maybe you'll think there's some amount of like social contagion, whatever going on. But like there's a way to do that and still be a good parent. This isn't it.

0:31:57 Lydia: Them mm -huh and then I would also recommend getting connected to therapy therapy in events like that. Therapy, you know, individual therapy for the child, for yourself to help navigate those challenging thoughts and emotions and a safe place to do it. That's not going to weigh on your kid and potentially damage your relationship.

0:32:44 Thomas: You might have trouble with your child's gender identity and don't want to beat someone up for their feelings, but it's what you do with the feelings. And you might have all the conflicted feelings in the the world. I could imagine, you know, I could imagine there's a lot wrapped up in like gender identity of kids, weirdly enough, like all their clothes that you've picked out, their name that you picked out. Would I understand feeling a bit of a sense of loss there as a parent.

0:33:06 Lydia: I mean, we feel loss as our kids are growing up and they're no longer like the baby That we remember, you know, the toddler that we remember. So I think that is very understandable. You feel like you're losing the person you knew. You're not. But it feels like that.

0:33:10 Thomas: All the time. Yeah. Right. Yeah and to your point, if those are feelings you have, you somebody that's not your kid about it. Don't your kid is already going through something pretty difficult, honestly. Honestly burdening them with that additional thing. Not Not, good, not a good way to do it, but don't, guilt yourself to death for having those feelings. Have those feelings, if those are feelings you have, have those feelings work on them on your own time.

0:33:45 Clip: As a parent when you are trying to [get] information, very little comes up other than you need to affirm, that not affirming is harmful, could

0:33:54 Thomas: As a parent, very little comes up on these vaccines other than they're safe and they seem to just be effective. That's why it's, it's where's my my resources all of my resources there how do I find the proper resource everything I'm seeing is like take the vaccine it's super safe and is going to prevent the is that where do I find the good information that I want yeah

0:34:01 Lydia: Should go get them for your kids.

0:34:14 Clip: Even and lead to suicide. We love our children more than anything in this entire world. And for any parent, the mention of suicide is enough to bring you to your knees.

0:34:27 Clip: But January didn't want to affirm because she thought that her child was just going through a phase. She had no previous disgust

0:34:32 Lydia: So right after talking about how, you know, not affirming is harmful, could lead to suicide, the mention of suicide is enough to bring you to your knees. But January didn't want to affirm because she just thought her kid was going through a phase. OK.

0:34:42 Thomas: Jared didn't want to affirm uh but but I don't want to so good and I love how like it's just that's just presented that's Yeah. She didn't want to affirm. Didn't feel like it.

0:34:50 Lydia: Yeah. Wow. Immature.

0:35:00 Clip: Her sex at all. And I suspected at the time it was through her friend group. She had latched on to her gender being the reason for all of the discomfort she had ever had. And she genuinely thought that this was the solution. This was all escalating very quickly. She was casually talking about hormones, asking questions about puberty blockers. And

0:35:26 Thomas: Sorry. This was all escalating very quickly. She was talking about hormones. Are Because that sounds like escalating the proper amount. First, you're like, I think I might be a different gender identity than I historically have been. Let's talk about that casually.

0:35:29 Lydia: Was casually talking about what

0:35:42 Thomas: What is the proper timeline for that? That well first you go four years without talking about it then you just silence no radio silence then you can allude to it like I don't understand how much slower are you supposed to go than casually talking about ii

0:35:40 Lydia: Options might be available to me. Right. And I also want to just pin in the line right before that or shortly before that. And I suspected at the time it was through her friend group. Pin in that.

0:36:11 Thomas: Why did you suspect that? I don't know, whatever. All right, wow.

0:36:14 Clip: Was escalating quickly. She was talking about hormones, puberty blocks. And so she reached out and I reached I let the teacher know that we

0:36:22 Thomas: Asking questions now I see where the don't say gay stuff comes from like if if you view talking or asking questions about something as like dangerously too fast on an issue, maybe, yeah, maybe I see why you're doing that. Yeah, that makes sense.

0:36:35 Lydia: I thought this was the free speech crowd, though.

0:36:38 Thomas: No, it's not. That that was, is like 10 years ago, hon.

0:36:41 Lydia: Know.

0:36:41 Thomas: You're just, I might

0:36:41 Lydia: I Know.

0:36:45 Clip: And so I reached out to a teacher. I let the teacher what was going on, that we weren't affirming at home, and I let it with a teacher that I'm going to let my daughter handle this.

0:36:56 Thomas: Okay, I'm just pausing to, say that as a listener with no background, which is, you presume your audience knows nothing about, this. Especially as Like, far as I know, as a learner, casual listener to this, this is a concerned certain parent whose child uh thinks is not trans but is like pretending to be for some reason and she has emailed the school and said hey um not affirming at home but I'm just gonna let my my or son I don't know what pronouns he is uh handle this um whatever why why are we talking about this that feels like fine you know fine let's see where this goes okay

0:37:28 Clip: January emailed the teacher, quote, she is currently identifying as non -binary and prefers the pronouns they, them. I told her if she wants to go by her new name with her teachers, I won't stop her. I'm going to let her take the lead on this. She added that the school should do, quote whatever you think is best.

0:37:34 Thomas: They them hmm cool dum

0:37:46 Clip: And then at the end of August 2020, Florida schools reopened.

0:37:52 Clip: One day you picked your daughter up from school and she mentioned a meeting that she'd had with the school. Yes, that's correct. My daughter got into the car a couple of weeks after school had started, and she said, Mom, I had a meeting today at school, and I changed my name, but they asked me which restroom I wanted to use.

0:38:08 Clip: I was immediately taken back. She's a female. It never occurred to me that they could have a meeting with my child without inviting me. I immediately emailed the guidance counselor. When they called me back, they said they could not tell me anything that occurred at the meeting because my daughter was now protected by a non -discrimination law.

0:38:07 Thomas: -dum -dumm I'm

0:38:28 Clip: Eventually, January discovered that the school had completed a six -page support plan with her child. It included questions like, which sex do you prefer to room with on overnight field trips? And how should we refer to you when speaking to your parents?

0:38:28 Thomas: What

0:38:44 Clip: And this was to effectively deceive parents that these plans were even taking place. Oh, you mean like, if you want us to tell your parents, we won't? Correct. They were colluding with children to keep secrets from parents.

0:38:48 Thomas: Do to stop what what

0:38:55 Clip: And how was your relationship with your

0:38:57 Thomas: Sorry yeah

0:38:55 Lydia: All right let's stop. Yeah we need to talk about this support plan. We need to to talk about the support plan. So it's six pages long. That is correct. Yep. It includes things like what they mentioned here. Which restroom do you want to use? Sex do you prefer to room with on overnight field trips or does it? So six pages. And those are the two things that they call out there. Let me read to you a little bit from the support plan that existed at the time. Since then, this has been changed and we'll get into why. At this time, what January's daughter filled out here, it starts with the U.S. Department of Education and the U.S. Department of Justice interpret Title nine to require that when a student or students parent or guardian, as appropriate, notifies the school administration that the student will assert a gender identity that differs from previous representations or records. The school will begin treating the student consistent with the student's gender identity. Upon notification of a transgender or gender non -conforming student's status, school staff should complete a transgender gender nonconforming support plan within 48 hours. The checklist

0:40:09 Thomas: Quick yeah

0:40:09 Lydia: Below serves as the initial intake for a student who self -discloses that they are transgender or or gender nonconforming. After completing the intake and setting up a meeting, Part B is to be completed. Part B provides guidance to administrators and others in setting up an action plan for ways in which the student's authentic gender will be accounted for and supported at school. School staff, caregivers, and the student should work together to complete the plan. So in Part A, that's the intake. Things like the date of the meeting, they do comments about if the student information system data reflects what the student would like, or if a change is being requested, who the parent or guardian is, if they're aware of this situation, and if they are supportive of this solution.

0:41:01 Lydia: It also includes who the school contact person will be for the a student and a safe word. This, I mean, this is a thorough process.

0:41:10 Thomas: Hey you know why because some people's parents will fucking kill them if they do this

0:41:14 Lydia: Yeah. B starts with this statement. The purpose of this document is to create a shared understanding about the ways in which the student's authentic gender will be accounted for and supported at school. School staff, caregivers, and the student should work together to complete this document. Please note that part C is a separate document. We don't have to get into that. So But essentially, in these documents, Part A, Part B, it does not say exclude the parent within the document. It says, hey, is your parent supportive of how you're feeling about your gender? If the answer is no. then they say, are you comfortable having your parent be part of this meeting? And the answer is no. Then the school is going to believe the student that there could be an unsafe situation going on here. So there's tons of stuff in Part B regarding the parent -guardian involvement. They talk about confidentiality, privacy and disclosure, not just about how to interact with parents, but how to interact with other teachers, other students. What things is the student comfortable being public about versus what they'd rather be private about? It has an entire list of different situations and how they're supposed to try and manage it. If there's a substitute teacher, is that something where the student is comfortable sharing that information so they are affirmed still in their class? Talk about like library cards, student cards, if they're being summoned to the office, if there's an announcement over the PA, you know, how do they want those

0:42:02 Thomas: Because they might be in danger god right yeah

0:42:55 Lydia: Things treated? So when you drill down to just which restroom do you want to use and are you comfortable having overnight sleepovers on school trips like this is fear mongering and

0:43:10 Thomas: Is that one in there? Like, cause that, yeah.

0:43:12 Lydia: In there. Yeah. But the way that it is, so it's the use of facilities section, restrooms, changing clothes, showers. And the big part of this is that when it comes to restrooms it's specifically says, you know, the concern is about discrimination. And so it is that the student will not be made to use a restroom in the office as their restroom. Room. Like they are allowed to engage in the facilities of their school, just like every other student. And so that's really what they're trying to get to here. Clothes, they might feel more comfortable in, know, for her daughter, for example, identifying as non Maybe they feel more uncomfortable changing in the boys' locker room, but they do want like some element of privacy still within there. And the school would accommodate that. So there's a huge number of things that they would do here. I do want to note that eventually when the little John saw the support plan that they filled out with the daughter, she said she still wanted to use the female restrooms. So they lost their mind about this and said that she wasn't capable of making these decisions on her own. There was like truly just no threat here. Other thing that I want to get into this is, you know, things like social dynamics. If there are siblings that go to the same school, how to approach that dress code? Know, how would they approach those things? And then, of course, like how staff should be aware at the district level, the school level, teachers, other students? What happens if their privacy has been compromised? And how will the staff member respond to questions from other students, staff, parents? This is incredibly comprehensive,

0:44:31 Thomas: Interesting. Yeah.

0:44:55 Lydia: Incredibly thorough, and earmarked for monitoring and revisions over and over and over with action items like listed at the bottom of like who's going to do what when, you know, a very incredible thing.

0:45:09 Thomas: Well, if this sounds like a lot, not a parent, uh, some stuff for Arlo that was like about his um know where he is with like speech and stuff and they was like this many questions like for anything like this they need to be thorough so that they make sure they are accommodating it's just by law like they don't this isn't like a special you for gender would they put in this kind of effort to whatever it's like no this is like it's sensitive It's stuff that they don't want to get sued about.

0:45:38 Lydia: And they specifically cite it at the beginning of the support plan saying that the current way that Title IX is being interpreted by the Department of Education and the Department of Justice is this. And so we are pursuing our support plan in that manner um it has since been changed so now it's like three pages and not as thorough but yeah I yes

0:45:59 Thomas: Is that because of the state or like a federal level?

0:46:02 Lydia: I think it changed because of some of this stuff yeah

0:46:06 Thomas: Interesting. Well, anyway. Yeah. And it's also just an intake. Like any patient intake asks a bazillion things every time. And like, I could see being alarmed by the idea that like all of a sudden my kid is going to be using bathrooms or changing room for one. One, I never had any of that until high school, but maybe know, I maybe because I had a tiny school or whatever, but we didn't really even change in front of each other for PE or anything we just did in our normal clothes. But that aside, I could see being alarmed by that. I could be a parent of other kids and being like, wait, what's happening here? Is this really happening? I could seem being perhaps concerned about that. But it's also like, I don't know how they're handling that. That's a question that I would prefer to have like actually addressed? You what you could do is just tell me how that's handled. I don't know. I'm just a listener. True that at school, the minute someone identifies as different gender than they previously were, they get to just go into the different locker room or something? Is that how they're doing it or not? Do

0:47:03 Lydia: Doubt

0:47:04 Thomas: Fucking reporting. You are dealing with a high stakes issue here. You're dealing with an important, and think he understands that this is a culture war issue, but it's not just, it's belittling to call it a culture war issue. This is a matter of people's lives.

0:47:16 Lydia: It. Yeah. It's Yeah yeah.

0:47:18 Thomas: And at do the due diligence to say what is actually happening there? Because maybe this is an intake and they ask them the question, but that doesn't mean like they're instantly going to get whatever they say on there. I don't know. Does it mean that? I'm not sure. Maybe it means they will coordinate and they'll figure something out but like just the mere existence of a form after after by theway she had already said like however you want to handle this it sounds to me even by her own telling in this episode it sounds like she kind to this and was like all right however you wanna handle it trust you guys mm

0:47:50 Lydia: Percent. And I mean I think the other piece of this too is like there's an of student safety that's included in these documents for the support plan and how to approach safety for that student. But there's still processes available for harassment, discrimination. So if something happened where another student using that same bathroom felt uncomfortable, they have avenues, too.

0:48:17 Lydia: They can reach out to the school administration and experience that intake is like, because that's a whole separate support plan that I looked at as well. Well, to your point with the emails with the teacher, this that the email specifically is phrased is this has been an incredibly difficult situation for our family. And her father and I are trying to be as supportive as we can. Is currently identifying as non -binary. She would like to go by the new name blank and prefers the pronouns they them. Them. We have not changed her name at home yet, but I told her if she wants to go by the name blank with her teachers, I won't stop her. Then she went on to write, whatever you think is best or blank can handle it herself.

0:49:02 Thomas: That sure seems like she's given given permission to kind of just handle this yeah

0:49:06 Lydia: I think it's also interesting because based off of what January said in this email, the way that it's characterized in the email itself is we're trying to be as supportive as we can. We haven't changed her Name at Home yet. Yet, the way that she talks about this in places is not like how her email is actually stated. Think it's interesting because like if the teacher just went off of this, like, is that truth? Then I would say, OK, it sounds like they're aware and they're trying to be supportive. I wouldn't call that unsupportive necessarily.

0:49:36 Lydia: But her daughter was asked in that that meeting, are your parents aware? Are your parents supportive? And I have a feeling that her daughter said they're not supportive because that's why the parents weren't then invited and they didn't disclose this information to them. So there is so much more to this story, but we don't have time. So I'm going to make you wait for the rest of it, where we're going to dive more into January Little John and how John Ronson decided to approach this episode in particular. And you'll just have to wait.

0:49:45 Thomas: Interesting yeah do you mean? I've already heard the entire thing in one convenient episode. Oh, that's because I'm a patron at patreon.com/wherethereswoke. That's why I'm way ahead and I've heard all of this without ads.

0:50:20 Lydia: Well, you make smart choices. Yeah.

0:50:29 Thomas: Yeah, I see. But for this feed, we're going to have to divide it up and keep people in suspense.

0:50:36 Lydia: If you don't want to keep waiting, patreon.com/wherethereswoke. cool kids are there we're gonna be talking a lot more about how january approached the situation post support plan and what she did with the school district as a result okay

0:50:41 Thomas: So next time on where there's woke part two, I don't know what's what happens here.

0:50:59 Thomas: I think I can get a generic one that'll work for any all of the segments up time. On Where There's Woke. I don'T think this January little John is on the level and we just do that for all of them.