WTW59: Oh Is Stealing Things a Crime Now?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:03 Clip: What's so scary about the woke mob, how often you just don't see them coming.

0:00:11 Clip: Anywhere you see diversity, equity, and inclusion, you see Marxism, and you see woke principles being pushed.

0:00:19 Clip: Wokeness is a virus more dangerous than any pandemic hands down. The woke monster is here, and it's coming for everything, everything, everything, and everything. Instead of go -go boots, the seductress green M&M will now wear sneakers.

0:00:42 Thomas: Hello and welcome to where there is woke. This is episode 59. Oh, it's part four.

0:00:46 Lydia: You believe it?

0:00:47 Thomas: Yeah. It's part four of the we're coming after you, honey. Episode two of John Ronson's things fell part season two I'm thomas that's lydia how you doing yeah this is the final part or is it no it's not the final Part for everybody this is The Final Part officially where we're going to learn about this arrest story and why it's bullshit and then it goes on from there but in the subsequent um of time that I'm too like embarrassed to admit since we recorded this This got it's been like 30 years. I don't even remember when it's been

0:00:48 Lydia: Hi. Good. Excited to hear more about Judy being arrested. Yes. It's It's been

0:01:27 Thomas: A long time.

0:01:27 Lydia: A while.

0:01:27 Thomas: We've I won't say uncovered. Look, we did extensive fact checking and rechecking because when you're calling out someone for their bad fact checking, you got to make sure you do your good fact checking. And we've done it. We've one. It's perfect. Like there's it's so weird. There's could be who knows if there's some detail we missed. But in that process, there is so much more weird stuff about the arrest and about, God what else, that I'm also teasing that we're going to have a bonus for patrons only.

0:01:40 Lydia: And then some. Yeah.

0:01:58 Thomas: Lydia and I are going to jump on for a bonus unofficial part five of this one that talks about, it's like the grab bag of weird crap and weird lies that we didn't really get to.

0:02:11 Lydia: And like talking about some of the other players that aren't really related to the story from John Ronson's perspective, but it's really interesting and kind of helps, I think, illuminate the of this entire thing.

0:02:26 Thomas: And it's going to be a lot of fun. So that'll be after this one for patrons Patrons only at patreon .com slash where there's woke. But in the meantime, we got to get to our final official part. As far as you non -patrons know, it's the final part. Don't tell them patrons. Yeah, the final. Final part. Let's get on over to Jenessa and hear about this bullshit arrest story. We're going to talk about this um and stuff and let's start with what information we've been given right we okay here's what we know from the the show oh

0:02:53 Lydia: Do it what'd

0:02:56 Clip: Wasn't quite clear with me why she was refusing to hand over the cell phone but I got the sense that by By then, she had grown mistrustful of anyone who might doubt her findings. And she got desperate, and she's screaming. I said, no, he's not getting the cell line. Yes, it's in the freezer. Yes, I know where it is. Yes, you don't get it. You know, blah, blah. She said, I'm tired of your insubordination. You're fired. I'm firing you for your insolence and insubordination. After Judy was fired, things moved fast. She went to tell the search note box back from the lab. She says because she was worried that they would be tampered with. And now that she'd been fired, they were out of reach. Until she got a call from her researcher, Max. Max is a resourceful young man, and he got into the lab It's about 1 in the morning, I said, Max, you've got to protect that data. You've got secure that data! So he took the notebooks and he took them somewhere, home or his mother's house. When the Wittemores discovered that the notebooks were gone, they filed a civil lawsuit against Judy for breach of contract. A few days later, Reno police issued an arrest warrant against Judy, listing two felony charges, possession of stolen property and unlawful taking of data. This must have been a very crushing time for you. Well, sure. It was very frightening.

0:04:31 Clip: We called my friend Robin, who had a boat in the harbor, and I said, Robin, is your boat unlocked? And she said, yeah, Judy, it always is. And I said okay, can I stay on it for a few days? So now Judy was on the run, hiding out on a boat. So the police added a new charge. Judy was now a fugitive from justice. It was terrifying, the clanging of the riggings. I didn't know who was going to come down there. Yeah, this was the most terrifying time of my life. That was the worst week. And for three days, Science, the journal, was on the phone saying retract, retract, retract. And I said no. Usually Science only retracts a paper once all the authors agree that it should be. By the time that Judy was hiding out on the boat, most of her co -authors had agreed. But not not jaded. Still, science went ahead anyway. They retracted. It's

0:04:53 Thomas: Shoot okay boy it seems really fishy like even knowing the debunk I off whenever anyone just in life tells me a story and maybe it's because I'm an asshole you're free to say it whenever anyone tells me the story of yeah got fired today for no reason I'm always like yeah but what okay there might have been a reason though yeah like I'm not Maybe, maybe, maybe that's true. Maybe it was for no reason. But like, yeah, fucking insubordination, whatever that means. Like, I've just been, it's like, okay, that's pretty extreme. I don't think people do that for nothing, but you never know. Maybe sometimes people do it for nothing. And like the way even even not knowing anything, the way John presents it is so fucking weird to me where he's like and so they filed a civil lawsuit okay civil lawsuit sure and then also she an arrest warrant was it or whatever it was and it's like yeah okay well she stole something and then it's like well she's hiding and so they added another charge it's like yeah yeah you could have described that like very differently you could have been like well, she stole some stuff naturally the police were getting involved because she stole stuff. And then she went on the run from law. And so now she's a fugitive, you know, rather than like the way he presents it as like this thing that's kind of being unreasonably done to her. Is that just me? That's how the tone felt.

0:05:46 Lydia: You do yeah even

0:06:47 Jenessa: Hundred percent and I can confirm that because in the knowledge fight interview review he will absolutely portray it that way um we could play it or I can just read you yeah can

0:06:58 Thomas: Now I do want to play that.

0:06:59 Clip: Arguably treated unfairly, I would say, at this moment, because, you know, so after she refused to retract the paper, then she's handing it out on a boat, and she's charged with, because what happened was, you know, she gets into a terrible conflict with her employers. They want her to hand over what's called a cell line. This is like the materials that she was using in her experiments. Now, from what I could understand, the reason why they wanted her to handle over a cell lab was because a theory was forming among the people who couldn't replicate her findings that this xmrv this mouse virus was there in the cell line yeah um and so and it was just a genuine mistake like

0:07:46 Jenessa: So this is where you can hear him making the mistake that the turning over the cell line has something to do with debunking xmrb and it's not it's it's about her not turning over this new cell line shows up that is like for new research and she is she She doesn't want Lombardi to have it. I

0:08:05 Thomas: And that's just a mistake.

0:08:07 Lydia: Though it was addressed to lombard

0:08:09 Jenessa: Think it's just a, yes, a

0:08:11 Thomas: That's just a mistake and the reason reason I think that's just a mistake is actually it makes her look better if that's unrelated. Like honestly not that that's a relative term but I think it looks fishy as hell to be like no I'm not turning over my definitely fraudulent stuff so that she can check that it was fraud. It would be way more beneficial to her story to be be like oh well no this was a thing totally unrelated he was on you know he didn't deserve to have because then at least it's like well I don't know what the fuck that is you know that's so wow so but that's still john ronson just being wrong just making a mistake about this like a pretty important thing

0:08:46 Jenessa: Really important mistake. And once again, like, if you look up, like Max, who is the very resourceful young man who helped her out, the first hit for his name is the affidavit. As

0:08:55 Thomas: And just judging based on credibility uh didn't go on to make a documentary in quotes that killed who knows how many people that's full of lies right so just just evaluating credibility you know yeah

0:09:12 Jenessa: Far as I can tell, Max went on to change his name and move to another country. I can't find, oh God, I want to know so much about this man and I can'T find anything. Thing yeah that

0:09:16 Thomas: Maybe yeah so and he started that with arguably treated unfairly okay sure yeah

0:09:27 Clip: The cell line and she genuinely mistakenly thought it was in the blood samples and yeah I'm not there so long but she was refusing to hand it over yeah and in a very angry way um from what I can tell so she was fired and then a colleague of hers I think one of her interns or co -workers took her notebooks from the lab and the quote from your story just because I I appreciated this one from a judy and lying thief max is a quote resourceful young man so I think it's very It's very clear that he broke into the building and stole all the crap back, right? Yeah, basically got her stuff back. She said she wanted it back because she was worried that people would tamper with her notebooks and she wanted to preserve them. But she got her notebooks back from the lab, and now she was being charged or whatever, but basically she was Being Accused of theft because she were stealing her own notebooks, which belonged to the lab. Because if you're writing your notebooks it's the lab's property and if you used it for justice because she was hiding out on a boat so then she ends up uh I can't remember she turned herself in or she ended up anyway getting going to prison yeah for five days and I've got to say going to prison for five years for taking your own notebook from a lab is pretty rough you know that was we've talked about that and that was something we talked about on our show and that was something that I was like I listened to again and I was I was still like uh well first of all it's easy to kind of overlook that uh or at least overlook looking into it too deeper beyond saying well yeah the cops are fucking awful that's the type of shit they do to people uh and we're all just gonna live with it until we die but um the more I looked into it the more I thought why did this happen that seems so strange to me that there would even be this scenario for stealing notes right like people steal way more stuff with way less consequences all the time you steal a car in chicago and and have fun uh it's great um so I looked into it and I was trying to find uh okay well where did all this stuff come from and it said the warrant came from the university police uh university police yeah that's well that's what one place said and I and then I followed up and then I kind of looked at it I don't even know if they can do that are rent -a -cops able to issue warrants lots yeah, and that experience wounded her deeply, clearly. Uh irreparably perhaps or certainly profoundly wounded her um now if you're narcissistically minded and I think this is a really important thing about oh you know everything that you do and knowledge fight yeah uh I think narcissism plays an enormous part in all of this yes why does alex act the way he did why did you know so many people yeah and I feel one of the you know one of the sort of symptoms of narcissism is if you're wounded I'm not saying this is true in alex's case I really don't know but I think in other cases undoubtedly if you are narcissistically inclined and then you're winded it's really hard for you to get over it you lash out and lash out and lash in a sort of tireless way and I think judy was so wounded by that whole experience understandably I don't think she should have gone to jail for five years for having her own notebooks stolen absolutely no that's that's it that is that is the one part of this that is like I can't get I can'T get over why we all don't know more about that that seems I mean if you're because because I mean I I'm assuming it's true right I'm sure it's true we did a whole load of fact checking and didn't find anything to the country sure sure so assuming that is true then there are people involved who we can talk to and nobody's talked to them like I feel like I want to talk to the district attorney yeah uh annette wittenberg Well, didn't want to talk to us, you know, obviously we put the credit to him.

0:14:07 Jenessa: Segment was probably the most telling to me that like so he says first of all we did a whole load of fact checking and we didn't find anything to the contrary and it's like

0:14:10 Thomas: A lot of fact checking yeah the contrary of her having gone to jail for five days that

0:14:21 Jenessa: Yeah I guess if you mean literally just you fact check and she went to jail for five days

0:14:26 Thomas: Is what he meant because because jordan was saying like well it did happen right so yeah you

0:14:31 Jenessa: Now the problem is if you did a full load of facts checking you would think you would come across all these other details yes

0:14:34 Thomas: Think yep there'd be other facts that you would think would come into that yeah

0:14:38 Jenessa: And then when jordan says like okay so if that happens there are people we could talk to and nobody you has talked to them and he's just like yeah well lynette whittemore didn't want to talk to us so judy was really wounded like we're just moving on from the fact that you didn't ask any of the the district attorney the sheriff any of of the people she has sued because she claims they're part of a conspiracy with the Whittemores to arrest her.

0:15:10 Jenessa: Yes, she did sue like 15 people claiming it was all a grand conspiracy to arrest her. She ultimately will claim that Lombardi falsified data, which, hey, I don't know, maybe he did uh maybe he didn't but it's coming from judy so who knows

0:15:08 Thomas: She sued them a wow yeah she's like no I know it's because I falsified I mean uh no

0:15:38 Jenessa: She will claim yeah lombardi who worked at wpi actually he was falsifying data and that's why I didn't want him to have the cell lines and that'S why I didn'T want him TO HAVE THE NOTEBOOKS and thatS why I took uh my own personal property out of the lab and that 'S why the whittemores who to run the lab, called the DA, and had me arrested, and all these people are in on it, the California DA, the Nevada DA, the sheriffs in California are all part of a grand conspiracy.

0:15:53 Thomas: It makes no sense what's with all these this da talk wouldn't they just have called the police and told them what was going on and that the police kind of figure that that out or or is it that the rich people talk directly to the da or something

0:16:14 Jenessa: I can't. So here's part of the problem. So here is part of problem. The charges will eventually get dropped, specifically because, because um let me read you what the da actually says about this so ends up happening is about is all going on in 2011 and in 2012 Harvey Whittemore is going to start getting investigated for embezzlement and campaign finance violations by the fed and this is is all state level so far and what the da said about why judy's state charges were dropped is there's a lot going on with the federal government and different levels that wasn't occurring when we first became involved with prosecuting this case and we have witness issues that have arisen so they're gonna drop her case they're not saying it's because she didn't do it they're They're not saying it's because she did. Dropped it without prejudice, meaning they could theoretically bring it again. I'm sure not by now. It's probably been far too long.

0:17:19 Jenessa: But on the one hand, you know, yeah, innocent until proven guilty. We have no idea if the burden of proof would have been met had this gone to a courtroom and needed to be beyond a reasonable doubt.

0:17:29 Thomas: Well that she what stole the notebooks oh

0:17:32 Jenessa: So fun fact, something that a lot of people missed is she also took a laptop. Laptop it's not just her first of all calling it her personal notebooks as we've discussed not no not right that

0:17:38 Thomas: That's right yeah exactly not right especially because I forget if it's you or who was it who said like this it might have been you this was irreplaceable or was the affidavit like this is stuff that is irreplaceible to research that that belongs to this company or to this institute like you can't just take stuff from a place like I it's one thing you know like you could imagine you and I think that's what what is happening here is a bunch of people are translating this into laws are personal she had a notepad on her desk you see and she wrote down some doodles and yeah and she's like oh what What's that? It's irreplaceable to the research that the Institute is like doing and hired her to do. And like, yeah, that's obviously not hers. Obviously.

0:17:52 Jenessa: Was the affidavit yeah

0:17:58 Lydia: The institute grocery

0:18:00 Jenessa: Exactly right

0:18:16 Lydia: List yeah put

0:18:29 Jenessa: Why did max go in at at four in the morning and then again at eight in the warning through the loading dock 12 to 20 notebooks and then hide them in his mother's garage that doesn't sound like the kind of thing you do if you think it's personal property you're entitled to apparently

0:18:45 Thomas: She had a whole lot of groceries. Let me tell you. In those notebooks.

0:18:49 Jenessa: And like this portrayal ronson is saying it wasn't clear to me why she wanted them it seems like she was worried people were going to manipulate it or what ends up happening actually is as soon as the whittemores discover at least this is the whittlemore side of the story as soon soon as they discover the missing data, they file civil suit and they get an order from a judge enjoining Judy from destroying those notebooks or deleting the data.

0:19:19 Jenessa: They will eventually get a default judgment against her because she will never turn it back over. Yeah, she will give back some of the notebooks but not others. She will giveback the laptop and they will allege that she deleted data off the laptop not the kind of thing that we tend to think a person who didn't falsify data might have done maybe just maybe so this is not somebody who got their very resourceful lab assistant called them and then got in there and got her her personal notebooks and like the whole fugitive from justice thing fugitive for justice is defined in Nevada and federal law as relating to crossing state lines to avoid criminal prosecution or testifying in a criminal trial it has nothing to do with the civil lawsuit it's because there was an arrest warrant and she went from nevada to california that like and it's specifically reported that like part of it it was she was considered a flight risk because she flighted like and the part about the boat like that she was I don't know why there's this idea that there's an arrest warrant that she would somehow know about and then hide out on a boat like does anyone think that would work like she know that she is going to be arrested if she was not yet already arrested arrested, no,

0:20:18 Thomas: Evade justice. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm.

0:20:50 Jenessa: She was hiding on the boat to avoid civil service of process, which, again, is not how civil service and process works. Like, if they can't find you, there are multiple mechanisms to attempt to serve you that will count. My If favorite is called nail and mail. I don't know if other states have this, but in New york state it is literally I will be nailing it to your door and mailing it to you and so uh yeah you can nail and mail if you can't find them I have to nail it to the hull I'm I don't know I don't the

0:21:25 Lydia: It in a bottle

0:21:13 Thomas: But if you're in a boat, you don't have a door. Yeah. Yeah, I

0:21:26 Lydia: And then send it out hope it makes it

0:21:31 Jenessa: Whole ocean is her mailbox now like I oh my god the whole thing is chaos like

0:21:37 Thomas: This is a minor part of it, but I just love how like white privilege it is or something to be like or like wealth, whatever it is to be like she only did this and she only did that. And then it's like meanwhile, you are people obviously who do far less and get punished far more and it's never put in the terms of they only stole a bunch of stuff from their work. If It's it was a black dude to be this criminal got fired, got got mad, stole a bunch of work property. And then these same people would be like, well, he should be in prison for 10 years, probably.

0:22:10 Jenessa: Was thinking that the whole time that it's like the idea that she was treated so unfairly I want to be fair like maybe if you're british and you look at I'm not going to defend our justice system for a second like I'm Not going to tell you judy probably had a blast sitting in a prison cell like that was probably pretty I'm sure it was awful like yeah yeah I'm I'm Sure she didn't have a fun time right

0:22:28 Thomas: Well, it's jail, but yeah. I bet you, even in the UK, if, you a warrant for your arrest or you're evading, you're like evading justice or you have stolen things and won't give it back. Like, yeah, there're probably consequences.

0:22:47 Jenessa: Yeah absolutely I mean I I ran this by someone I know who does criminal uh and they're way they portrayed it was everybody thinks they're being persecuted and sometimes they're just being prosecuted like got here um thought this part was interesting um there's part of the lawsuit when this is judy suing other people part where like so judy says like in other places like oh my god I'm going bankrupt because people are suing me and like she spent years suing other people with a lawyer and then pro se eventually so we're in a motion to dismiss right which means we're gonna take judy at her word that everything she's saying is true and we're still gonna just say no to all of this plaintiff's uncontroverted allegations only established that her time in jail was unpleasant and that she

0:23:23 Thomas: Mm-hmm.

0:23:41 Jenessa: Was already and that she was not processed as fast as she could have been

0:23:46 Thomas: OK, which, again, we have to keep two things in mind. Obviously, on one hand, our justice system sucks. On the other hand, relative to our justice system, I'm sure that's all bullshit. And just to be clear, are you saying this motion to dismiss was granted? Oh, Oh, man.

0:24:04 Jenessa: This was the motion to to dismiss to let all of the sheriffs and people from california who so cruelly and unnecessarily arrested her um they are not going to in fact be sued for a grand conspiracy to arrest judy orchestrated by the whittemores and the government and the virus itself I don't know um we

0:24:28 Thomas: Now, what about qualified immunity did they dismiss it for other reasons I want to make sure it wasn't like the normal

0:24:35 Jenessa: Literally stopped no we stopped before even talking about qualified immunity there is no genuine issue of material fact. This allegation about phone calls. First, even if accepted as true, the calls made to plaintiff's husband would only support the inference that Harvey wanted plaintiff husband to believe that he had the power to get plaintiff released from custody. He did not say he had contacts within the sheriff's department or named the sheriff. Second plaintiffs shifting allegations about the phone call are inadmissible hearsay not supported by a signed declaration with someone with personal knowledge of the content of the phone calls she can't get a declaration from her own husband

0:24:42 Thomas: Wow crazy huh for his husband so that sounds like she's alleging that whitmore called her husband to like pressure him or something to do something like in exchange for releasing her he

0:25:30 Jenessa: Like the if if the yeah that like somehow harvey whittemore would have the power to get her released from custody it like he's saying if we accept this is true that would mean her husband believed that and that the call even happened if we believe judy but like none of that would establish that he did yeah

0:25:52 Thomas: Was in a conspiracy or something yeah

0:25:54 Jenessa: That he actually had that power let's assume the call happened and that judy's husband believed it was true he didn't have, she never shows any evidence that he had contacts that would make that possible. Also, again, yeah, this would be a cross -state conspiracy. Like, to extradite someone from California to Nevada, like, extradition is a big freaking deal. Who

0:26:22 Thomas: For all we know Whitmore was talking about just like all right we'll drop like our side of the charges or our you know the our our civil suit yeah whatever yeah

0:26:30 Jenessa: Knows? I'm of this, her husband was in his, like 70s. Like who knows? If these phone calls, if these phone calls even happened she can't get a signed declaration from someone with personal knowledge aka her husband will not verify this in court not a great sign they did stay married so apparently this wasn't a big enough disagreement I don't I god it's

0:26:35 Thomas: So this is all nothing yeah her husband yeah not a good sign not a a good sign oh

0:26:55 Lydia: I saw just because I was looking at the husband while you guys were talking and I saw he died from covid but she like changed the obituary to say that it was like COPD and you know wrote out COVID but the rest of the family was like no it's because of COVID it's

0:27:05 Thomas: My God okay

0:27:09 Jenessa: Did yes she will end up also suing um is a fun one um fun legal fact you can do a qui tam cause of action which means I'm going to show up on behalf of the u .s government suing you because how you wronged the u -s government and she's going to sue the whittemores and the whittlemore peterson institute and say you people were faking data to get grants from the government and you were trying to do all of this stuff so on behalf of the u .s government I appear to get you in trouble for that and she tries to move to let the government um join the and as a party and they declined they declined they declined yeah

0:27:58 Thomas: Like you got this go go get them

0:28:01 Jenessa: Um court ends up dismissing this one as well because they're like uh part here is so you can't do the qui tam claim uh pro se uh you the government can't

0:28:01 Lydia: Crazy

0:28:05 Thomas: Way oh interesting just like this that's just too fucking insane sorry myself

0:28:16 Jenessa: Not allowed to be like I will represent the government I know I'm not a lawyer um and then the part that would still relate to her and like be her own personal lawsuit they dismissed because for you have 90 days for to do service of process and they cut you slack when you're pro se and like a year later she just keeps not showing that she ever filed service of process on the whittemores and the judge is like there's no evidence they're aware of this lawsuit suit like no go home like so

0:28:53 Thomas: Maybe it's because you said they got a default verdict on her right

0:28:56 Jenessa: Did in their lawsuit against her they will get a default judgment oh

0:29:00 Thomas: She was like oh I see what I can do here I'll just never serve it say I did and then that default judgment oh this is me just speculating but like honestly that's how these idiots minds work sometimes I don't know yeah

0:29:03 Jenessa: No oh I mean this is yeah this is the joy of pro se litigants is just getting them getting to watch them try to navigate the the procedural part it's like it's tragic when it's people who can't afford a lawyer and they're in the civil versus the criminal system like that that sucks, but it's, you know, and then there, then there's Judy. So, yeah, you know, it, what we have Ronson saying in the podcast and then doubling down in this interview with Jordan is, like, it was draconian. She, you know, five years, I, that was a, I'm sure just a misspeak, five days for Steve having her own notebook stolen.

0:29:33 Thomas: Stealing a

0:29:53 Jenessa: It's 12 to 20 notebooks and a laptop containing data that don't belong to her right

0:29:52 Thomas: Loaf of bread to feed her family data for the research yeah well

0:30:04 Jenessa: And again maybe when we get to court if it went to court a jury would not have found this true beyond a reasonable doubt but in order to have probable cause to affect an arrest yes

0:30:16 Thomas: She she admits she did it I don't think yeah I mean sure her defense is not she didn't do it it's those were mine and I am a narcissist and I can have whatever I want

0:30:20 Jenessa: She does oh

0:30:26 Lydia: I hit out on my friend's boat oh my

0:30:29 Thomas: So this is this is crazy yeah

0:30:30 Jenessa: I can't this is so bad and like again I can't emphasize enough this is like so much of this is on her wikipedia if you google her if you Google Max Max is discussed in the podcast and like yeah we have this piece where it's just so nobody talked to the DA well we tried to talk to Annette anyway moving on it's like tell me probably one of the things that we have to also think about is if the charges are dropped typically your records are sealed um because

0:30:33 Thomas: This is just yeah yeah yeah hmm yeah

0:31:06 Jenessa: If you know innocent until proven guilty we would never want charges were dropped because of complete mistaken identity but now when people google you or look at public records they still find you were charged for a crime that would be terrible right so typically if charge not just you're found innocent but like truly before we even go near a trial charges are dropped they will seal those records so it does give judy this ability to write her own narrative and the da no ability to say like hey you're lying I didn't I'm not part of a conspiracy right up until judy sues them and alleges a conspiracy and now they get to be like no no no except all those dang documents are like hidden on court dockets I if you dig into that like judy alleges that the arrest warrant was shown to her and it was blank and it's since been forged to include like

0:32:00 Thomas: That sounds super plausible yeah and that warrant had that virus too it's like all over it so

0:32:02 Jenessa: There was no mugshot but then they made me yeah then they made me pose for a media photo and they photoshopped that to make it into a mugshot but they never really booked me and like she just is not a reliable narrator she's nuts yeah sorry

0:32:17 Thomas: She's nuts okay yeah but you don't understand she was a upstanding scientist uh she was wronged so horribly and that's why Why? Yeah, it just strikes me as one of those like, like, I think John Ronson wants to believe people and wants to be compassionate. But it's like you can't let that go too far. I feel like he wants to tell a story of a tragic figure who has this reason that she eventually turned total fucking bullshit. It's like, well, but actually she was total fucking shit from the beginning. And that's important to know. Yeah.

0:32:51 Jenessa: And the way to still be there's a way to still be compassionate to judy that is I mean we you know who knows what her deal is who knows I don't know maybe the journalist who could have looked into like you hear the part where he says I donno she might have been unimpeachable when she worked at the the National Cancer Institute, we could have found that out. Go ask, go ask, go ask somebody, hey, what was Judy like when she was 20? What was she like when she was 10? What Was she like, when she was 30? Like, what people see the signs of this coming? Because if the story is about how does a person, not just a person who's smart and educated, but a virologist become a virus conspiracy theorist, I'm curious too, too. What were the, were there signs? It's not the arrest, it's not the arrest. I'm sorry. Like, I'm sure the arrest didn't help, right? But she was making, we know she was making conspiratorial types of statements beforehand. Yes, because she was supposedly paranoid that people were going to, you know, manipulate her data, but we have reason to suspect she manipulated her data and maybe is trying not to get caught.

0:33:49 Thomas: Whole reason she got arrested was because she was already full of shit. Want to get something. I don't know if you know the answer to this, but I get that the cell line thing was just a total mistake. That wasn't, you know, whatever. But would those notebooks contain any evidence of what she did? Or is that all about just fucking over the Institute and trying to take her like ball and go home?

0:34:11 Jenessa: Those knowing exactly what's in those notebooks speaking generally people have gone to jail for this kind of thing and that's the way it's happened is hey I got a grant from the national science foundation which means I took your tax dollars from the government and I then falsified data and I got caught and that is basically that's fraud against the government and they go to jail. It's happened before. Like, that would not be unusual. I guess it would be unusual statistically, but it would not been like a thing that's never happened to anyone. And that's kind of how it happens is somebody sees, I mean, the example I'm thinking of in my head right now is somebody see a figure in a paper that doesn't seem quite right. And then what they do is they ask you to show your work. They want to see, well, if this figure isn't manipulated then I should see notes about you know I um if these studies take years and years to put together right so I uh I can speak for myself when I do my own data collection like I do meticulous notes because I know I'm gonna come back like I could come back years later and go what was participant 237 doing who was that and what were I there's a reason I tossed them out of the study and I don't remember what it was I have to go back and figure out

0:35:50 Thomas: Notebook fraud oh yeah okay okay

0:35:53 Jenessa: Exactly if this is how people get caught is unlike the thing that is the most telling is there doesn't seem to to be any like follow the the breadcrumb trail back to the decisions the person made it's just there was nothing and then there was a figure as

0:36:14 Thomas: Just wasn't sure if that's so those notebooks would have that are they the scent was that the same it's possible okay well

0:36:18 Jenessa: Entirely possible it's entire possible that is what's going on is these notebooks may well hold the evidence that would prove that there was fraud that laptop data that she allegedly deleted before she turned the laptop back over may well have been what would show like when you look at data on a spreadsheet you can go this is just suspiciously like why does everything is everything round numbers uh

0:36:46 Thomas: After this This is when she accidentally posted in a lecture.

0:36:51 Jenessa: Me give you the timeline here so the paper 2011 june 6th is a virology conference in belgium where ensor inc actually meets up with her and she's being very conspiratorial about like you know everybody's out to get us um in the summer uh is writing for a full retraction and he is taught showing like the problem with the plasmid contamination september 23rd cohen and enserink publish false positive which is the really famous like write -up of what went down and that very same day at a conference in ottawa judy shows the terrible, no good, very bad slide. September 29th, she is fired, and everybody thinks it's about this, and Annette has to say, Annette Whittemore says, no, no. It's because of the insubordination thing. April 14th, the partial retraction Silverman asked for is published, but people did know that was coming. October 16th, that's when, according to the affidavit, Judy gets the notebooks and goes to California, whereas, you know, on the 29th is when Max stole them, or I guess the morning of the 30th. 4th, the civil lawsuit is filed. November 16th, Max gives his affidavit, and the Nevada arrest warrant is issued. It looks like then maybe November 17th is When the California arrest warrant Is issued for the extradition. November November 18th she's arrested, November 22 she posts 23 we get the full retraction of the paper, June 7 she pleads not guilty of 2012, June 11 of 2012 the charges are dropped, and then February of 2014 we get a default judgement against her for failing to turn over remaining data per a court order. Judy just keeps trying to sue other people, pro se, and losing. Oh, in 2014, she publishes an anti -vax book. In 2019 or 2020, she publishes another anti-vax book, both of those are with Kent Heckin-Lively as second author. Is plandemic documentary comes out, and in 2021 is when she writes her third plague book with Kent Heckin-Lively and Dr. Frank her PhD advisor. That's about where we are today. I if anybody wants to go down a fun rabbit hole, Dr. Daniel Peterson is the Peterson of Whittemore Peterson. There is something I would love to research more about of the Lake Tahoe incident. That is apparently when a bunch of people supposedly like caught chronic fatigue, like there was an outbreak. There There is an interview with Lipkin, the guy who did a big debunk study of the XMRV thing. And it's an interview by somebody who is like kind of sounds conspiratorial about CFS. And he's doing an amazing job of being like, no, no. No, let me tell you the truth. Then somebody says, well, what about the Lake Tahoe incident? What about Dr. Peterson? And he says, Well, you know, I would love to analyze that data. But dr peterson has since left the whittemore peterson institute and the whittlemore peterson institute won't give me that data so what's going on there

0:40:13 Jenessa: Oh

0:40:13 Thomas: Let's get that intern, resourceful intern. He could do it.

0:40:16 Jenessa: My god there's so much here there's much here that could have been explored about there are clearly real people suffering with a real disorder and that's terrible and then there seem to be sort of wooey full -on quacks and wooey people and maybe woo adjacent people all latching on to them and taking advantage of them and then there's maybe real doctors maybe not and then there's this Lake Tahoe thing and then what is everybody doing I want to know and instead we got a story about how if only everyone was nicer to poor Judy Judy, plandemic would never have happened. And it's just not

0:40:57 Thomas: What a load of shit. Sucks. And

0:40:58 Jenessa: Judy was, yeah, like, yeah. I couldn't believe how everything I looked into was either just more nuanced, more complex than that, or just fully not accurate. Yeah. Was frustrating and confusing and I feel like I'm losing my mind and I hope, I don't know. There's, yeah...

0:41:16 Thomas: There's more we will talk about more of episodes of this show at a later date but Jenessa thanks so much for coming on wow what a comprehensive breakdown don't have anything to plug or anything do you there

0:41:27 Lydia: Cow

0:41:24 Jenessa: Thank you uh election are coming up check if you google your state and board of elections you will be able to find when you need to register and when you needs to uh get out there and get your absentee applications find the dates now before it's too late

0:41:45 Thomas: So much uh good message and uh more unfortunately more on uh things fell apart in future episodes All right. That's our episode. And for once, we're not, I'm actually not interrupting anything. We're not the chaperones because we actually came to a conclusion of the last official part. Yeah. Yeah.

0:42:03 Lydia: The sun has come up. Yeah.

0:42:07 Thomas: I'm more like the trees in the second Lord of the Rings movie after the Battle of Helm's Deep. No, I don't know.

0:42:12 Lydia: You talk about Lord of the Rings a lot. It just came up on OA, didn't it?

0:42:18 Thomas: Well, that wasn't my fault. The bar exam that was explicitly about Lord of The Rings that I didn't make up. Come on. Anyway point is this is the final part you've just concluded it but unofficially there's a part five that is a lot of fun that I already teased for you before but go to patreon.com/wherethereswoke and uh listen in it's going to be so fun lydia's got a ton of just miscellaneous lies and details from this absolute liberal with the truth claims, Judy Mikovits.

0:42:50 Thomas: There's a lot of stuff here, so you can only get them on Patreon and we can't wait to give it to you. But if not, thanks so much for listening to this whole series. And hey, there's more because we're doing more than just this. Now, I will say this was the longest series in terms of per episode basis. One is only a two-parter. Can you believe it? Only a two-parter uh there's another one after that that really gets into some uh and turfdom that that's I think more like a three-parter so it deserves it deserves more time because that one is just so uh to look forward to on this series about things fell apart falling apart uh for listening we'll see you over on the patreon bonus for patrons right here we are in addendum land and first off Jenessa I would like you to apologize for your audio in the main show I did my best you were in some sort of echoey like chasm or something I don't know what it was it was very difficult to mess up but no

0:43:34 Lydia: See you there, cool kids. From the void. Yeah.

0:43:57 Jenessa: I was in a closet with nothing hanging in it, which didn't help, but I needed to, in an emergency situation, find a quiet place away from children, but now I'm in a quiet place away from my children called my home.

0:43:59 Thomas: Need some skeletons I'm sound great I was just teasing I we are jumping on here in addendum land because back in the 70s when we first recorded this uh had a lot of good stuff but since then in many layers we've uncovered some stuff and I want to here's my teaser and then lydia is gonna get going on our timeline you remember how they were like hey all right the five -day arrest thing that does seem weird maybe that was bullshit maybe the cops suck maybe the whatever I think we can definitively say no the fuck that wasn't like that's totally Totally understandable. And it would be extremely hard in my mind to argue that her five days in custody was anything other than obviously what needed to happen.

0:44:52 Thomas: That's my claim and my teaser. But Lydia, why don't you take us through the arrest?

0:44:55 Lydia: So I found this of all sources. Bear with me because there's a reason. It's the Daily Beast. And they did an interview with Judy back in 2012. And like right Right after her arrest, basically. Yeah, exactly. So they they had a conversation with her and I wanted to read to you guys how she characterizes the events, you surrounding her arrest. So they wrote, she took the small boat moored behind her house down into the harbor where she got onto a friend's sailboat and hid there for five days.

0:45:08 Thomas: So pretty close to this. Yeah. So she went boat to boat, like, yeah, which for some reason is a little bit funnier than what she already said. Yeah.

0:45:30 Lydia: To boat like just imagining leaving your house exactly I was just expecting her to like have shown up at the harbor I guess but I didn't think about her boating over there yeah

0:45:41 Thomas: I I hope they did, you know, like a relay baton, uh, off. I know they did that where like the, they both got going the same speed.

0:45:50 Lydia: What is that called when like pirates take your boat like in the water her I don't

0:45:56 Jenessa: There's also all that stuff about renting a car so she like rented a car to rent another car to take her boat to another boat like when yeah

0:46:02 Lydia: Know this

0:46:02 Thomas: Well, she rented the car to take a bunch of the stuff back to her house. Right. Yeah. I do also want to emphasize that this is a result of us going painstakingly through the 47 different lying sources of this story. And it's, it's I've really wanted to make sure we had this right. And, that's where we kind of uncovered a little more nuance to the story or a little more detail. It's fun. So boat to boat, step one.

0:46:15 Lydia: We can't stop ourselves yeah

0:46:23 Thomas: And mind you, it's presented on the show as though she's doing this to avoid arrest, but that isn't what we think. We're pretty sure, right? Because the affidavit of the helpful, the very capable, helpful assistant, what guy, whatever, he said she was avoiding service of process.

0:46:23 Lydia: Boat to boat all right yes and I'll lay out the dates there too in just a second but then it says by november 14th uh was back at her house in ventura county and she had retained a lawyer who assured her there was no warrant out for her arrest so she went back home because she was like all right well I don't need to stay on this boat anymore I'll just go home um one week of that phone call with her lawyer her doorbell rang her husband david who will be talking about a lot more in the bonus for patrons yes

0:46:57 Thomas: So you got Barry Zuckerkorn. Yeah. Mind Mind you, this is still her lying words. This is not or official I just want to make sure it's going to be confusing for people does

0:47:14 Lydia: Told to the daily beast author and husband answered the door and someone spoke from the other side and said, is Dr. Judy in? It's Jamie. I'm a patient. She knows me. She said I could come by any time. Now, this information is repeated in Judy's claim, civil rights complaint that she eventually does. Think she has in the past not related to her WPI research director job. Then she said, it's okay, David, I'll take it. I went down to the front door and she said remember me? And I said no. And then everybody jumped out of the bushes.

0:47:36 Thomas: She see patients it doesn't seem like it okay

0:47:58 Lydia: Showed her little badge. The police cars went and surrounded the house.

0:48:02 Jenessa: What? Well,

0:48:04 Thomas: Now okay Mind you, we started a recording talking about this where Lydia had this and I was like, that doesn't make any fucking sense you she's combined I said said, Hey, I haven't read the thing you've read, but she has to be combining two things because if you have a warrant for someone's arrest, correct me if I'm wrong, lawyer person, you don't need to do a disguise and pretend you're another person and then rip off a costume that you're under a rep. You just go to the house and arrest somebody.

0:48:32 Thomas: She's probably combined. But when you do civil service, the process that actually you do kind of, they do that sometimes that's a real thing. So I was like, okay, either it's fucking made up. And I think the patient thing is just another way for her to seem more sympathetic.

0:48:30 Lydia: Knock knock knock yeah sympathetic

0:48:45 Thomas: Oh, I just was going to, by the kindness of my heart, I had to go see this patient, you know, this and can't be right.

0:48:45 Lydia: Yeah right

0:48:51 Jenessa: Doctor. She has a PhD. So I guess you could use the word patient insofar as I have a disease and I see this PhD doctor for research, but she's not your patient.

0:49:01 Lydia: Like participating in a study

0:49:02 Thomas: She's not doing a checkup. This is, I think this is complete bullshit.

0:49:05 Jenessa: They don't do house calls. So to me, what you were saying, Lydia, at first it was like, aha, this is a process server. As soon as there's a badge, yeah, yeah I don't the not like you're gonna have to admit who you are they're gonna take your wallet out of your pocket while they're handcuffing you also

0:49:17 Thomas: Process officer. And the police don't need to do that. Famously, they usually just shoot you. They just break down your door and if anyone has a gun, they're like, we'll shoot you and then that's what they do. They don't need to pretend they're somebody else.

0:49:37 Lydia: So me give you know we talked about the timeline a little bit on the main episode but let me just kind of reiterate some of these things because I think it will help Help us understand what's going on here. And then I have another piece that also helps understand what's going on here. Leading up to the arrest, September 27th is when Lombardi received a package from Japan. And Judy told Max he's not allowed to have those cell lines. But Annette Whittemore later said, yes, he was. Was fired September 29th for insubordination.

0:50:09 Thomas: I also remember and I wanted to say this too that you said I was confused you know again we uncovered the cell line confusion that both Both Ronson and Jordan had to be fair. I think Jordan was in the right direction there with these questions. I think I remember you saying in this subsequent research that this was about her her saying, how dare you work on another thing when we have this thing we're still doing? And that's was that her justification? Let

0:50:32 Lydia: Exactly. You kind of went off about Lombardi that He was doing things he wasn't supposed to. Annette Whittemore has had to come out publicly, even saying, like, we don't normally comment on personnel matters, but I have to clear this up because the statements that Judy is making are just absolutely meritless. That happens September 29th when she's let go. 30th is when she has Max retrieved documents for her, and then she came back up to Reno on October 16th to get those documents back from him. In that time from October 16th or whatever they whittemores there had asked multiple times for that material to be returned, and she continued to refuse. And so two weeks later, on November 4th, WPI filed a civil suit against Mikevitz and that she had wrongfully kept her lab notebooks and other information about her work in flash drives, personal email account, etc. And then they sought a TRO, temporary restraining order, from a judge in Nevada, prohibiting her from destroying, altering, disseminating, or using trade secrets and confidential information. That was granted on November 7th. So then someone was waiting outside of her house to serve her with that TRO.

0:51:47 Thomas: Me pause you I just want to emphasize how much that goes in the face of this story that she was was treated terribly by these asshole bosses that whatever it sounds like there was quite a bit of time between her stealing stuff from her workplace that is not hers and them pressing charges doing all that stuff right they're like hey uh crazy person you mind giving this stuff back for a while let

0:52:06 Lydia: Yeah. 100%. Multiple attempts. Right. For a while. And then she essentially put them in this position where that was the alternative that they had. That was the avenue that they had left to pursue. So, in Max's affidavit because that he was interviewed by police on November 15th in his affidavi, he said she told him she was avoiding service and hiding on the boat.

0:52:33 Thomas: Because so the guy was waiting by her house and that's why she like did the boat to boat thing to

0:52:38 Lydia: So guys waiting outside of her house, November 9th. She's like, well, I I don't want to get served. So she takes her boat to her friend's boat, stays there for five days. She got an attorney and was assured there's no arrest warrant so she's like okay I'm gonna go home that's fine there

0:52:40 Jenessa: Does

0:52:54 Thomas: Be fair it sounds like there was not yeah okay but again that that is a weird blendy thing because she is avoiding service but also was like phew there's no warrant now I can go back which suggests she's not avoiding service no

0:52:57 Lydia: Was not exactly and about being arrested yeah yeah

0:53:08 Jenessa: She maybe thinks the process server is a cop? Sees a process server waiting for her and is like, oh, right.

0:53:15 Thomas: I don't think so because again the assistant guy is in his affidavit saying she is avoiding service of process and I don't know how he, like, there's no way he's making that judgement any other way but she's telling him that you know so might just be both, I don't know, or it might be that she maybe, okay, maybe she went home because that guy left, or I don't know, maybe she thought the coast was clear for some reason

0:53:37 Lydia: So so well and and And I do think like having an attorney lined up probably like helped her feel more comfortable if she was going to get served. She's ready.

0:53:43 Thomas: Maybe the attorney was like, hey, you know, no, you can't just avoid service. Honestly, that might actually be it.

0:53:47 Lydia: That could have been a hap. Yeah.

0:53:49 Thomas: Like, yeah, that's not going to work.

0:53:51 Lydia: I think that's totally a fair point. So she's back home on the 14th. On November 15th, like I just said, Max was interviewed by police and he signed an affidavit on November 16th. Is happening because the Whittemore Peterson Institute is housed on the University of Nevada, Reno's campus. They are required to report activity that happens that could be illegal to police. So they fought publicly

0:54:20 Thomas: You know how you can just steal equipment and notebooks with vital information from a university and they should just be chill about it? Yeah. Like, oh, you got to be chill though.

0:54:26 Lydia: Funded university. Yeah. We know simultaneous to this TRO that is issued that the Whittemores have also filed a police report declaring their equipment and material as stolen. Stolen so that is currently being investigated simultaneously right while she's hiding out on a boat and they interview Max because he's a party to this case you know he's irrelevant person involved he did

0:54:45 Thomas: It was and he cracked instantly I'm just kidding that's me making it up but probably and he should have he should be like oh wow this is not a good thing I was doing open

0:54:59 Lydia: He did yeah and I have a point actually for patrons on why might have been going on there that I read little bit bit yeah yeah Yeah.

0:55:06 Thomas: The extra patreon conversation where's the book and

0:55:08 Jenessa: My God. I can't wait.

0:55:09 Lydia: So on November 17th, the day after Max signs his affidavit, the warrant is issued for her arrest. So there was not a warrant issued when she returned from her boating nonsense. But three days later, it was. And

0:55:26 Thomas: Notably he very much said and now she's on a boat and now they say she's a fugitive nope not even close the

0:55:33 Lydia: So the state of Nevada versus Judy Mikovits. And was a two count complaint possession of stolen property as a felony because of the amount of money. Yep.

0:55:41 Thomas: Value yeah Yeah.

0:55:42 Lydia: And then also unlawful taking of computer data equipment supplies or other computer related property. Also a felony.

0:55:49 Thomas: Now's a good time to read the arresting officer's affidavit saying, by the way, this wasn't her personal notebook with her shopping list. We've already made the jokes, but like it just drives me nuts with the kid gloves that Ronson is treating her with. Here's the arresting officer. Now, again, could be the guess the the making it up or something. But like, OK, I guess I mean, but Like here's what the arresting officer, the information that he had. Mikovits retained possession of the stolen property and failed to return it to the rightful owners. The items taken include a black Apple laptop, multiple flash drives, approximately 12 to 24 research notebooks. And Jenessa, you did say most of this, but there's a few other things that I think I want to highlight.

0:56:27 Thomas: And miscellaneous correspondence from WPI. The missing property includes trade secrets and information regarding inventions that are patented or for which a patent application is pending. That Mikovits has been asked multiple times to return the missing items to WPI and she's refused to do so. That investigation has revealed that the value of the stolen property greatly exceeds $650, that the property stolen is likely to be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars or more.

0:56:55 Lydia: She's crazy. Crazy.

0:56:56 Thomas: What are you talking about? You don't get to just steal a bunch of shit. Is stealing a crime now? Is what does the world come to? And then you flee. Okay. Sorry. Get back to your part.

0:57:09 Lydia: Well, just to kind of put almost a little cap on what you're saying, too. She had signed an employee proprietary information and invention agreement that legally states WPI is the sole owner of the subject research information. Information when she files her civil rights complaint she literally says to the court they forged my signature I've never seen that document in my life all right liar um okay so getting back to it um november 17th that's also when a search warrant is issued out of ventura county based on a probable cause statement of Todd Horrigan who works for um local police department. And Then November 18. She's Arrested.

0:57:17 Thomas: Of course. Yep. No way. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. Mm -hmm. Well, totally likely. Yeah, is Okay. Everybody turned down your volume while I tell why this is not at all unreasonable that she was held for five days. Here's the thing about November 18th. You know what day of the week that was? It was a fucking Friday. And here's something Lydia had to point out because I never would have, my brain does not work like this way. It's the week before Thanksgiving. So like, it's a very real thing that if you get arrested on a Friday, you're gonna sit the weekend in jail. That happens a lot. It's unfortunate. I'm not saying it's good, but it is totally understandable. And in a situation where people might be offered the holiday that might be a short staff, who knows? Like there's plenty of reasons. But add on top of that she's a fucking fugitive from the law let me ask you this if you commit a crime in state a he thomas takes the bar exam everybody you commit a crime and state a you flee to state b and are arrested and put into custody in state b how do You think the practicality will work that you would be instantly processed and let go in

0:58:54 Thomas: The other state. The person who charged you with stuff doesn't live in that state. They don't work in that city. There's going to be, let alone, obviously it's a Friday. She likely, she didn't get, you know, like processed in time and arraigned in time because that doesn't happen instantly. There is probably a backlog. Again, not saying this is great, but this is nowhere near out of the ordinary for any kind of criminal thing. She is a fugitive from justice in another state. She got arrested on a Friday and then what happened Monday? She fugitive complaint was filled pursuante to California penal code, uh, whatever. And I don'T know if that's just the process of how they do like the the kind -y stuff. And then she's arraigned on Tuesday. Yeah, not amazing, but that's the five days. Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday.

0:59:39 Lydia: Released. Completely released and said, hey, head up to Reno by next Monday.

0:59:44 Thomas: Yep, not even like a police, this is the situation where she said they apparently can agree, hey, to avoid, you know, probably to avoid the cost of extrodition, all that nonsense, she agrees to return voluntarily to Reno. But this idea that you should be able to get arrested in the state you fled to to evade justice and be processed in like an hour how would that even work go

1:00:10 Lydia: It's crazy. And one of the things that I really want to close this out on is just as an aside, the way that the Daily Beast article quotes Judy as characterizing the document retrieval with Max, like when she told him, like, hey, get all my stuff.

1:00:26 Thomas: Steal a bunch of stuff yeah such

1:00:27 Lydia: So she says that she was back home in California the day after her firing when her cell phone rang at the crack of dawn. It was Max, she says, calling to say that her notebooks, flash drives and other experimental records at her lab had been rifled through. Mikovits was worried most about the notebooks I said Max secure them it's obviously been I said you have to secure them it's chaos take them home

1:00:54 Thomas: A hysterical fucking liar my usb drive has been ran rife trough it was upside down I put it in didn't go in the first try someone turned it over yeah

1:01:04 Lydia: She literally says you have to secure the notebooks it's chaotic take them to your mother's house

1:01:12 Thomas: Here's, to give you an idea of how how not a reliable narrator she is. And you can go ahead. And I guess Ronson has the theory that once she was arrested unjustifiably, which was very justifiable, she just lost her mind or complete ability for facts. She sued the wrong fucking people. I know we talked about this. She sued this sheriff's office that it was a conspiracy with the Whitmores. And then it gets dismissed because they're like, there is absolutely no evidence that this sheriff's office was even who arrested you.

1:01:36 Thomas: Like it was different officers. Like you didn't even do it right. Right. Like she doesn't even know who arrested. You cannot trust anything she says.

1:01:45 Lydia: And later in some other court documents, she's literally a liar. She says that she was not home on November 9th because she was away taking care of her elderly mother. Ma'am, you did an interview in 2012 saying you were on a boat. Like, your mom's not on your friend's boat.

1:02:05 Thomas: Her mother lived on the boat. That's where the life support thing was so

1:02:10 Lydia: Just such a lie and there's more lies there's so many more lies that I cannot wait to share yeah

1:02:13 Thomas: Much more. We'll save it for a bonus. But I did want to get that just because it's also, I think, again, missing information from that knowledge fight interview that I right questions. Like, hey, he did say, like, why was she arrested for five days? Seems weird. Like, it is easy to just say, oh, that's our police state. No, man. Like, I don't know how much better that arrest can and should go. Like, genuinely. In this system.

1:02:38 Thomas: Short of, like abolish the police. Okay, fine. But, like. You're arrested on a Friday in another state. You're a fucking fugitive. What do you think? They're going to teleport you to Reno instantly. And it's just crazy.

1:02:50 Jenessa: I I think there's a couple of things that are important there, too, is First like of all, like is characterizing this as like outrageous. And he also says, like, we did a ton of fact checking on this. And it's like, well, OK, we did, too. Look what we found. Is all out there. And part of the issue, too, is that. She had done a crime or alleged to have committed a crime in one state and was then arrested in that same state no evidence she's fled or anything depending on your state it's entirely possible you would get booked and like I know people who are on the like on call for the public defenders where you get the phone call and And at two in the morning, you have to show up and do an arraignment for someone because there are rules about these things.

1:03:34 Thomas: Two in the morning.

1:03:35 Jenessa: So it depends on your state.

1:03:36 Thomas: Yeah, I was going to say that doesn't I was looking that same thing up. And it is very common if you're arrested on Friday or over the weekend that you're there until Monday. That's just how it often works.

1:03:44 Jenessa: In the lovely state of New York where we are trying to be better.

1:03:48 Thomas: The city that never sleeps there. That's why. You can get arraigned at 2 a .m. in New York. Come to New York, beautiful, the Big Apple.

1:03:51 Jenessa: There you go. Ha. Yeah.

1:03:51 Lydia: Swing by the bodega and

1:03:57 Thomas: Yeah, get arrained.

1:03:58 Jenessa: Yeah. Yeah. Um gonna vary by state but like in states that are good about this kind of thing like also because new york has a huge part of this is our bail reform like the vast majority of people will be out without cash bail just you it was a non -violent crime you are going to get like in arraigned court date set go home don't go anywhere the absolute second you cross state state lines, there's two problems. One, if that happens after arraignment, it looks real bad.

1:04:29 Jenessa: It looks like you're running away. Two, there is a huge just general procedural problem here. If you get arrested in one state, to who do not live in the U.S., this is going to sound bonkers because it's like you are within the same country. How is this a problem? But truly, state governments are separate governments. Extradition as if you are foreign countries.

1:04:50 Jenessa: And it's not literally foreign countries, but they're part of the Uniform Extradition Act. And California to call Nevada. You got to get the right people on the phone. They have to... Yes.

1:05:01 Lydia: The right signatures. Yeah, right.

1:05:03 Jenessa: And I found on that thing from the California penal code here, the 1551.1 um without warrant grounds taking prisoner before magistrate complaint is the like many little clauses in here so it's the arrest of a person may also be lawfully made by any peace officer without a warrant upon reasonable information that the accused stands charged in the courts of any other state with a crime punishable by blah blah blah exactly

1:05:34 Thomas: So she had warrants, but not in California that you're saying. Okay, okay, gotcha.

1:05:39 Jenessa: Arrested the accused shall be taken before a magistrate with all practicable speed and complaint shall be made against him or her under oath setting forth the grounds for the arrest so basically this is the extradition part of it yeah this is a

1:05:52 Thomas: Sure. And that happened on fucking Monday. It was all available speed. Read your rest on Friday. It happened Monday. Sorry. Bad luck. This, part this happened Monday. The part where they actually, yeah. The, the part where They actually had to do that again to Jenessa's point, fucking paperwork's involved here.

1:06:01 Lydia: To sorry. Arraignment was Tuesday.

1:06:07 Thomas: They You did it on Monday.

1:06:07 Jenessa: Lot yeah because you got to call nevada and figure out how do you want us to handle this we have arrested your alleged uh

1:06:17 Thomas: Someone who is already definitionally perhaps a flight risk because they've flown like, come on. Yeah, thanks for hopping on again, Jenessa. This was seriously, it was so satisfying to get some of these. There were things that we already were basically on to back when we recorded that, but we got just that little more detail thanks to your amazing sources that you listed.

1:06:38 Thomas: Yeah. So thank you so much. And end of addendum. And we've had so much more in the fun bonus that Lydia has for us.

1:06:35 Jenessa: Thanks Thanks.

1:06:44 Lydia: My gosh you guys oh

1:06:46 Thomas: So you're going to want to tune in.

1:06:47 Jenessa: I can't, I can't wait. Oh,

1:06:49 Thomas: Patreon .com slash where there's woke.

1:06:49 Jenessa: I'm excited.

1:06:53 Thomas: Lydia I believe you discovered a video uh can't believe that we are we at the end of the show we're at post record scratch addendum territory post post post in which I need to say if your entire fucking theory of the case was that this was a normal scientist for the most part who's uh maybe unimpeachable perhaps while she was at the whatever and then she turned rogue and was bad whatever I think the one piece of like really, you evidence for your theory would be, I don't know, anything where it seems like she's already who she is before all this crap. So

1:06:46 Lydia: My god gosh all did. No, Post post. Yeah. Yep.

1:07:30 Thomas: There's none of that, is there?

1:07:30 Lydia: And stumbled on an interview with Nevada newsmakers, Annette Whittemore.

1:07:38 Thomas: They know about that. They referenced this in the, in Fight interview. They reference Nevada Newsmakers. Don' t. How many times did she go?

1:07:42 Lydia: This interview, Whitt emore goes on a lot.

1:07:47 Thomas: Okay. Okay. Oh, this is Whittemore.

1:07:49 Lydia: WhittEMORE And Judy, yeah.

1:07:51 Thomas: Andrew.

1:07:51 Lydia: Yeah. So Annette Whittemore goes on Nevada Newsmakers fairly frequently. And in this interview, she goes on with Judy Mikevitz because they want to talk about their discovery with XMRV. This is October 8th, 2009. And go ahead and skip to a little bit further in the interview so we can hear from Judy about the potential things that this this discovery could lead to. No she still works for

1:08:15 Thomas: And just to make absolutely sure she hasn't been arrested at this point. This is pre it even becoming a hoax,

1:08:22 Lydia: Them yeah yeah yeah this is

1:08:23 Thomas: Or being clear that it's.

1:08:24 Jenessa: Is when everyone's excited about the paper.

1:08:26 Clip: This has way more ramifications than just the CFS and ME. I mean, you know, we have been a very strong supporter of the autism community on this program and try to cover that as much as possible. What effect might it have on the autism committee with this research? Well, and findings, I mean it's beyond just research, but finding. Yeah, we've actually, we're excited to, it's not in the paper and it's in a significant number of autistic samples that we have tested so far so there is tremendous potential for this to potentially be something that will be solvable for the autism community be linked to it to a number of neuroimmune diseases including autism it certainly won't be all because there are you know genetic defects that result in autism but there are also the environmental effects there is always you know we the hypothesis that my child was fine and and then they got sick, and then, they got autism. Interestingly, on that note, if I might speculate a little bit, the vaccine, this might even explain why vaccines lead to autism in some children, because these viruses live and divide and grow in the lymphocytes, the immune response cells, the B and the T cells. So when you give a vaccine, you send your B and T cells in your immune system into overdrive, that's its job. Well, if you're harboring one virus and you replicated a whole bunch, you've now broken the balance between the immune response and the virus. So you could have had the underlying virus and then amplified it with that vaccine and then set off the disease such that your immune system could no longer control other infections and created an immune deficiency. Let's take a break.

1:09:07 Thomas: My what wow

1:09:34 Lydia: Crazy.

1:10:14 Thomas: Fucking are you kidding me totally normal oh she must have been arrested that day maybe for a different shoplifting I just all these arrests you know that just how many times was she arrested this is fucking insane this could this will the way she phrases it hey oh it's not even like oh yeah maybe vaccines cause autism or whatever She's like, hey, this could explain why, you know, that thing we all know that vaccines cause autism that's been debunked a billion times already by now. This could explain Why That Thing That's Not Right Is Right.

1:10:22 Jenessa: Paper she is yeah she said it so matter of fact like like we're trying to explain this this known thing and like you're saying like yeah it's been like over at that time point it's been over 20 years since we were like no that's a full -on conspiracy not just like that that was was based on fraud and she's just on national not again I shouldn't say national television local all

1:11:11 Thomas: Unbelievable. Yeah. Nevada Newsmakers. Yeah. This gets polls pretty big ratings. Yeah, how this do you find it plausible, Jenessa, that she has already done this experimentation on like autistic samples? And she's like, we haven't talked about it yet, but I've already done that. And I concluded that, yes, vaccines cause autism because of this mechanism that I've whatever. She seems like she's just lying out of her ass to me. Like, butI don't want to do the body language expert thing.

1:11:38 Jenessa: What's so interesting so we've got that lombardi right is the first author on the paper who also works with her at wpi the one she ultimately gets in to fight with about like the cell line from japan she also I have read reporting that he was also presenting this and yet it never gets published of course because it's nonsense so like were they possibly pulling like wakefield to like collecting data from patients and finding finding xmrv in them the way they were finding it in cfs patients which is to say not actually finding it like almost manufacturing it maybe I mean it are a lot of desperate people I don't know oh my god it's so yeah

1:12:24 Lydia: But I think for me when I heard that it was just very clear that Judy was always destined to be on Plandemic. This was not something that happened because of her falling out with WPI and her arrest and how she was treated there. She was always going to be on that side. Always.

1:12:45 Thomas: Absolutely. Fucking crazy.

1:12:47 Lydia: And poor Annette. Well, she gets talked over.

1:12:51 Thomas: I know. She starts to answer it. But Judy's

1:12:54 Jenessa: She so tried to be like well hang on a moment

1:12:57 Thomas: Judy's like, you're not lying fast enough. Here, let me.

1:12:58 Lydia: Man.

1:13:01 Jenessa: Out to the autism community you're not in fact defective and gonna be cured with your fake vaccine injury that a fake virus that isn't real oh god I can't handle this we

1:13:05 Lydia: As you are. Yeah.

1:13:13 Thomas: We got to stop. We got stop or we'll never stop.

1:13:15 Jenessa: Gotta stop we gotta start we're done this is also 20 years ago or 15 years ago like it's

1:13:40 Lydia: Thank

1:13:40 Thomas: Well, oh, unfortunately for us, only 13 years ago. We're not that old yet. So, yeah. But