WTW58: Just Hand Over the Cell Line

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:03 Clip: What's so scary about the woke mob, how often you just don't see them coming.

0:00:11 Clip: Anywhere you see diversity, equity, and inclusion, you see Marxism, and you see woke principles being pushed.

0:00:19 Clip: Wokeness is a virus more dangerous than any pandemic hands down. The woke monster is here, and it's coming for everything, everything, everything, and everything. Instead of go -go boots, the seductress green M &M will now wear sneakers.

0:00:41 Thomas: And welcome to where there's woke this is episode 58 somehow part 3 on episode 2 of john ronson's things fell apart but I'm telling you that's the beauty of the gish gallop that'sthebeautyofputtingoutbullshit is it takes exponentially longer to unravel it it just does and so that's but that's been like what our show is it's like we're no we got time our show should be called like no no well wait we'll we'll go through it rather than just be like oh it's so bullshit I can't even keep up it's no we're gonna we're going to go through it all anyway I'm Thomas that's Lydia how are you doing it's

0:00:50 Lydia: Of a singular episode. Yeah. Yeah. Good. I have nowhere to be. So I'm ready to.

0:01:22 Thomas: The biggest lie you've ever told we have like a hundred places to be right now oh

0:01:24 Lydia: I know. I know. But I want to be here. I want because I want to listen to the craziness that's about to happen. Because not only do our shows take exponentially longer than the source material, when someone like Judy, Judy, it's even worse. It's even worse. I can't believe it.

0:01:45 Thomas: It's crazy I can wait to get more into to it so as we last left off uh was like well yeah it's maybe it's not fraud but like it at the very least it ronson shouldn't have just put in that guy saying well it's definitely not fraud okay not fraud um at the very least but as we'll learn that I think the case is even stronger than that for it being maybe fraud so let's hop on over with Jenessa uh after this break which you can avoid of course by going to patreon.com/wherethereswoke so

0:02:18 Jenessa: So that article by Cohen and Ensorink, where they say, yeah, there's this partial retraction, but without casting blame, but the exact same day, it comes out September 23 of 2011. Judy is at a conference presenting on her findings because Judy is not going to let it go. Is a conference where she ends up claiming in front of everyone, like XMRV, autism, XMRD, dementia, Alzheimer's, like she's just going off. And also says, hey, so in some patients, you can find XMRB just immediately. And then in other people, it's not immediately there.

0:02:58 Thomas: Until I unscrew this little vial and drip a few things on it that you find it

0:03:03 Jenessa: God you don't know how right you are you have to treat them with 5 -aza and then you find it so the thing about that is this is a chemo treatment drug that is known to reactivate endogenous and and cause them to be expressed where they were otherwise not detectable or active and people are like well yeah yeah judy if you put five aza we know

0:03:06 Lydia: Why'd you do that? Oh

0:03:34 Thomas: If you drop quote virus making juice on the thing yes you get more viruses

0:03:42 Jenessa: Pretty much um she puts a a photo up of a gel um like look look at the banding on this um turns out people scrutinizing viewers who are getting increasingly uh with uh beating this drum, take a quick look and go, hey, that's the exact same gel from the 2009 paper.

0:04:03 Jenessa: But this time it's not been cropped. And if I zoom in, I can see handwritten 5 -AZA, meaning at the time someone took this photo, that drug was being used on the sample. So in the 2009 paper, here's how that gel was labeled. We talked about the Wells on top, like there's these little lanes that the the genes are going to go down through and make their little vertical bands. So in well one, we have N for normal, well two, N for normal, while three, one, two, three, five, indicating a number, you always assign your patients like a random number so that they're, you know, confidential. So that's meant to be cfs patient one two three five and we see xmrv oh my god and then uh well four and for normal well five and for formal well six one two two three six a cfs patient xmv oh god well seven and for normal and then well eight is a standard that has like pieces of dna of known sizes that you can compare against here's that same, what we know, know for sure to be the same gel. Like you can tell there's

0:05:21 Jenessa: Even a spot where somebody stabbed it on accident with a pipette and you can see where the stain like hit. It's for sure the same jail. Here's the labels when Judy presents it a second time. Well 1, N for normal. Well 2, 2095. Well 3, 2095 plus 5-AZA. 4, N from normal. Well 5, 1, 6, 7, 4. Well 6, 1674 plus 5-AZA. Well 7, N for normal. Well 8 standard. Which means now it's not Wells 1 and 2 were normal and Well 3 was a chronic fatigue patient. Well 1 is normal. Well 2 is a chronic fatigued patient. And Well 3 is that same chronic fatigue patient treated with 5 -AZA. Now I see it.

0:06:13 Thomas: Wait, and is the idea that that was, like, the actual labeling back when she first did it?

0:06:19 Jenessa: Yes. Because that is handwritten, or a part of that is handwriting on the image. So we, if it's handwritten there, that has to be what was there when you took the picture. This is what causes the full retraction against the author's wishes. Oh

0:06:39 Lydia: Wait, against your wishes.

0:06:41 Jenessa: Yes for a rare rare instance uh journal says it is clear the authors are not going to come to an agreement on a statement about this retraction and we're just going to do it ourselves it's retracted you're welcome everybody and that's when silverman goes public going hi I've been requesting this for months just so everyone knows like he is trying to clear his name at this point.

0:06:57 Thomas: Wow, that's not a good sign. Jeez.

0:07:08 Lydia: That's crazy.

0:07:09 Jenessa: Yeah, this is the best, best, most kind interpretation is a level of incompetence. No, I mean, no, right? No.

0:07:10 Lydia: Poor guy. There's

0:07:18 Thomas: It's not possible. Yeah, no, there's no way. That's intentional. There's no, way.

0:07:21 Lydia: Way.

0:07:23 Jenessa: Yeah. You will find multiple, multiple sources call this clear fraud, like period. So

0:07:29 Thomas: Well, that sounds like clear a fraud to me.

0:07:32 Lydia: Debunked.

0:07:32 Thomas: Yeah.

0:07:33 Jenessa: Yeah! Yeah, like to me, I am personally pretty convinced at this point that she may well have spiked those samples and then it also looks pretty clear that whether or not that happened she super definitely mislabeled this figure in the 2009 paper and concealed that she was actually using a drug that magnifies the virus and sure enough this is how like the studies that were showing it's not replicable one of the things they did to be like like, can we put this thing to bed? They sent around to like nine different labs. Okay, here's the, we're not, it's all blind. We're not going to tell you which is which. There are positive controls that definitely have XMRV in this vial. There Are negative controls that definitely don't. And then there are CFS patients and there are healthy controls and we're going to send it out to you. And other labs are reliably detecting it in the positive, like the known known tester. They are not detecting it anywhere else. And so that's showing the test is sensitive enough to pick up XMRV in the known positive, but not too sensitive that it would pick it up in a negative control. Except Judy's lab and Rossetti's lab seem to just pick it off sometimes,

0:09:00 Jenessa: And they seem to but they pick it up in a negative control sometimes too and they they can't reliably detect the virus when you blind them to it but they'll find it in a narrative control sometimes

0:09:14 Thomas: Wait, at what point was that?

0:09:16 Jenessa: Is during this figure is revealed but during this whole fiasco it like it is pretty clear that judy's lab and resetti's lab were doing something the other labs weren't doing that was leading them to find it in negative controls and not find it in the positive control sometimes and other labs were able to be much more reliable so to just say this just looks like a genuine mistake yeah and leave it at that no and I cannot emphasize enough how much this is like on her wikipedia page this is is like, every, this level of detail I just gave you, no, but allegations of fraud, it's on her Wikipedia, yeah,

0:09:49 Thomas: Doesn't to me sure doesn't.

0:09:51 Lydia: Helps

0:10:01 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, enough to. Yeah I mean that's honestly that's our method. You can start with Wikipedia as a as a research tool.

0:10:11 Lydia: Point you to the right places.

0:10:12 Thomas: It tells you a lot of stuff.

0:10:14 Jenessa: Source, you click the source on Wikipedia, and it takes you to the details I am giving you, I am not doing in -depth, yes, so this is where it gets even, oh god, it, okay, so So this is what's even, you could look at that and just think, so Ronson said, is this a genuine mistake? And Ensrank said, like, I don't, I think it, I Don't think it was foul play.

0:10:20 Thomas: You could have called anyone Anyone up who is a part of those sources that you're talking about? Maybe if you're a journalist, right? Boy, even more. Well, yeah.

0:10:46 Jenessa: And maybe Ensrank is just like a journalist who wrote his biggest piece the day Judy was presenting that bullshit figure. And who knows, came

0:10:57 Thomas: So you're saying he wrote his piece and it came out before that massive piece of evidence.

0:11:01 Jenessa: Out that day.

0:11:02 Thomas: Well, yes, but it's not that hard to... We're not in the 1800s. Like, you can easily, hey, update on this web page that has this piece.

0:11:11 Jenessa: My gonna die this was in the actual like paper publication oh

0:11:15 Thomas: Okay. Hey, next paper publication. Got a correction to issue. You yeah that's not hard yeah

0:11:21 Jenessa: Now now this is the part where I'm gonna get mad science the journal the people who published this clearly bullshit paper that got rich that they had to retract against the author's will they have put a bunch of ensorink and cohen's reporting about this behind a paywall are you kidding me the reporting on your fuck up is behind a paywall oh oh dare you I was so mad I was livid like you are the ones who caused this and you're putting regarding the for -the -average -reader explanation of what went wrong here behind a paywall. Oh, I went and got the important parts from, I checked the pieces, but, like. In terms of how many pieces by Ensorink I would have had to dig through to double -check did Ensorank ever later come out and say. And then eventually it was like, you know what? I have a job. And whether or not answering ever changed his mind about this or kept reporting on her answering is not the topic of this documentary I'm moving on

0:11:34 Thomas: Like a non -consensual retraction oh wow wait

0:12:32 Jenessa: Oh

0:12:33 Lydia: He had the opportunity to to address that more firmly when when ronson was interviewing him but he decided to take the wishy -washy space right

0:12:40 Thomas: This is way later yeah or the somewhat misled on what he was saying we don't know

0:12:48 Lydia: Right yeah we don't know how it was cut yeah yeah

0:12:50 Jenessa: So I don't know the extent to which answering knows about every single one of these pieces or what he would say if we did like an uncut interview of just like do you know about this What is your personal opinion on it? And I also don't know that I care what Ensorink's personal opinion is on it. He's a random journalist at science. He's not a researcher on the paper.

0:13:06 Thomas: Well I would still want their journalists to do a good job that seems pretty easy once

0:13:15 Jenessa: Fair, fair point, fair. Think they were probably, you working for the journal that published the paper, like who knows what.

0:13:23 Thomas: You've issued a full retraction I really see what is in it for you like you almost want to blame it you'd want the person to be more like devious because that gets you off the hook more so

0:13:34 Jenessa: I mean, that makes sense to me, honestly.

0:13:37 Lydia: Like you were tricked too

0:13:37 Thomas: I I doubt yeah I I don'T know who knows yeah like you say that part doesn't matter so much what really matters for our purposes today is this was all easily available to at least include in your reporting and like have it inform your podcast even if you don't want to like out and out make the claim that she's full of shit like you can at least maybe not make the blame the other way so strongly without referencing any of this or making the listener aware of any of it you

0:14:04 Lydia: Exactly like it's so easy to add a little epilogue sort of thing and you like any documentary you watch at

0:14:11 Thomas: Don t mean epilogue it's a podcast you do it yeah

0:14:13 Lydia: No but like but documentary watch you know like you you get the storytelling narrative of it and then there will be those sort of um things at the ends where it's like well they assert this you know when reached for comment they asserted this etc etc and they're able to kind of like um those additional nuggets of information to the viewer and I think podcasts have the same responsibility that if they are reporting on a story that unless it's going to be labeled as fiction or like you very clearly say this is from the point of view of this particular person and we're not going to fact check anything we're just going to listen to them share their life story then fine but that's not what I think Ronson is trying to do with this project from

0:14:59 Jenessa: I totally agree. I think like this is, if this was, hey, here's how Judy, known liar, tells her own story. I'd be like, you know what? I, of fascination and knowing my money is not going to her. Cause like, I'm not going to go watch Plandemic and let her get my money. Have a fascination with these people.

0:15:22 Jenessa: I coming out of her mouth if I can hear it and like just hear it and go well this is probably all bullshit but here we go I love a good ghost story like yeah why not tell me all about it um so that would be fine but I think you're totally right my listen to this I hear this is what happened and not this is how judy portrays it

0:15:43 Thomas: It's very decisive yeah it is narrator voice which is like the you a structure standpoint of the media that am to believe like well that voice is telling me what happened you know like that is telling the truth right

0:15:55 Jenessa: Exactly exactly so okay that's the little piece we get in the podcast is just the interaction with n strength like no you think this is a genuine mistake oh yeah I don't think it was foul play and then we move on um thing that got me into this was the interview on knowledge fight he will triple down on this um oh my god it's bad so there's like a pretty I don't know how long this section is actually because I listened to it on half speed while I transcribed it what you're gonna hear here is uh is uh of the hosts of knowledge by uh the other host isn't around he's interviewing ronson about what happened in this episode and um I think you're gonna hear jordan uh make some very astute observations about what's not lining up in this story basically I think he really he asked the questions I was asking and then I was that's what sent me down this path was

0:16:16 Lydia: So crazy I

0:16:45 Thomas: Interesting. Oh,

0:16:48 Jenessa: Hearing this interaction what

0:16:49 Clip: Part, you know, looks at is whether or not she was doing this to get revenge on a medical community that, you Know, that wounded her. Is that at the roots you know that personality you know I will I will say this uh in in looking this up um so I don't know if I don' t know if you saw this uh weirdly enough but there was an episode of nevada newsmakers uh in 2007 uh I'm a huge nevado newsmakers fan uh I got all I got something so fascinating about that all right so uh dr judy and the whittemores were being there's actually a clip from that in the show yeah um yeah yeah yeah uh go go sorry no and the thing that I find so interesting about it uh is at one point she says um they were telling me about stuff and I said I knew it was a virus and then I went to nevada right and I find that fascinating because that suggests to me that I don't think she even did the study at all right yeah like not even not even the fake one that's I think that's the real reason she's got giving the samples is there's not even a fake virus in there there's no fake virus is a lie the thing is there was it wasn't just judy mikovits on that xmrv um the paper that got published in science there were people from the cleveland clinic there were People from the national cancer institute so there were definitely legitimate scientists involved in that study right but that's the next part of this if those people were involved why is it that she's the the only one who has a sample I

0:18:57 Clip: Don't know how they um wrote their paper like I don' t know the answer to that like I dont know um I dont' know whether or not all of the testing was done within the wittimer peterson institute and then the paper version of it was then sent out to the cleveland cleric I mean maybe or maybe not like I honestly dont know but see that's the that's That's where I keep coming back to, why was she in jail for five days? This is stuff that it's like, there are these little assumptions that I feel like are being made that are like lies that are covered

0:18:56 Thomas: Interesting question okay

0:19:06 Lydia: So, I don't know whether or not you didn't read it, but I think

0:19:39 Clip: Up by the surface lies, if that makes sense, you know? So much so that you don't even ask the question. Like, there's no way, there'S NO WAY that she would just make up the whole thing, right? Oh, no.

0:19:48 Lydia: It's a good book. Oh, no. And

0:19:51 Clip: And nobody's accusing her. Even Martin

0:19:51 Lydia: Nobody's accusing, even, you know, that's the way it's being used by our community, you don't have to say anything about it.

0:19:55 Clip: Ensling, who's the guy at Science who was heavily involved in debunking her studies,

0:20:01 Lydia: He doesn't have anything to say about it, he just thinks it's good.

0:20:02 Clip: He doesn't think she made it up. He thinks it was a genuine mistake. I disagree. I am the one person that is telling you, I believe wholeheartedly she made up from the jump. I think she was scamming these people from the job. That's my theory on this. I I I yeah I just I'm not sure that I agree with you it's a big it's hugely it's yeah I didn't see any evidence to to support that theory uh you know basically you know the conclusion I came to was the the xmrv you know this mouse virus ended up contaminating the materials that she was using in her experiments and that's why she mistakenly thought that the xmrv was in the blood samples right that makes sense that sounds like a reasonable series of events that would take place that would happen to a reasonable person that leads to stuff happening right that's to me that sounds crazy you're telling me that the person who is in plandemic who's lied about her biography over and over and over again. Who's lied over and over, and over again! Is it somehow telling the truth about one thing?

0:21:03 Lydia: Wouldn't happen to me.

0:21:29 Clip: I mean, I also don't know what her life was like when she worked at the National Cancer Institute in Virginia. I don't have that. She could have been unimpeachable there. Totally! And I looked into it, and it says she has this thing in her biography where she thinks she's fought against against bovine growth hormone stuff, you know? Like, yes, there's something about her kind of overselling, you know, the AIDS research that she, I mean, obviously now she says all of this stuff about Anthony Fauci that's all, you know,

0:22:00 Lydia: Just want to confirm though and this could just be on the side that Ronsan is saying that it was the mouse cell line even though publicly we know that that's not the case he

0:22:01 Thomas: Fucking christ weird

0:22:12 Jenessa: I'm hearing yeah he He says it's this XMRV, this

0:22:15 Lydia: Repeats that it ended up in her sample from the mouse cel line is what he's saying and that's not true wow

0:22:24 Clip: Not going to be able to talk about her until somebody deals with what happened in the 80s, you know? I mean what happened in the 2000s, yeah. Yeah, well, yeah, yeah. You know, it started before we met her, if that makes sense. Yeah, undoubtedly. Yes, I mean, the fact is, the way she describes that conflict that she has when she's refusing to hand over the cell line, like, you know, when I listen to her tell that, I'm on the Wittenberg side. Like, hand over this cell line. Just hand over that fucking cell line! So, yes, so she was clearly, you now, So it's clearly difficult. So, but, I mean, that's such a big question. Why?

0:23:13 Clip: If everybody's worked on this paper, are you saying that nobody else has a copy of this cell line? And if nobody else hasn't, has a couple of this sell line, that says some scary things to me.

0:23:25 Clip: That is a really interesting point you raised there, Jordan. Like, there were 15 authors to this study. And I'll say, I don't know how, you know, I I don't know how that study came to be written like I don t know who was involved in the experiments who just checked the paperwork I I think you make a very good point I'm

0:23:44 Jenessa: Where bringing this all together is basically, you're hearing Jordan question exactly what I was questioning. It's like, how can it be when you're listening to the podcast you're hearing, well, and then people are demanding she turn over this cell line for testing how can it be that she is the only person with the cell line and I was like that doesn't make any sense and there's just these long pauses and then there's well I don't really know how the paper was written and I'm like call them like call anyone call do your job call the other authors I

0:24:07 Thomas: That'S a good point. Yeah, in fairness, in this moment, anyway, it, sounds like John had not considered that point. Like

0:24:25 Jenessa: Think you're right he he genuinely sounds stumped except for you know there's the parts where he's saying like jordan says she have just made the whole thing up and

0:24:36 Thomas: Well, what was interesting is, let me ask ask you on that part I initially took that as I actually think Jordan was being sarcastic and then Ronson took it literally and was like yeah no it's not made up and then Jordan was like except it could be you know like was that what happened or did I read that wrong

0:24:51 Jenessa: Well so here's how I wrote it was so jordan says like there's no way she would just make up the whole thing right and and go ahead hey

0:24:59 Thomas: So sorry I remember now I think he was saying similar to this has happened in my life a little bit where people are like well they have this assumption no one could be that dishonest so So therefore, you know, I'm going to color it a certain way. Whereas I think John interpreted that as him just saying, well, she couldn't have made this up, which is not the same thing. Yeah.

0:25:21 Lydia: Like an earnest comment

0:25:21 Jenessa: Yeah jordan is clearly saying I think she made this up I think this is bs and ronson replies to that oh no and nobody's accusing her yeah

0:25:33 Thomas: So that's him taking it genuinely when really Jordan was not making that point. Yeah.

0:25:37 Jenessa: To make sure it's clear people are accusing her people are definitely accusing her and he says and nobody is accusing her. And even martin enserink who's the guy at science it's like okay so you're relying on a journalist who has second third hand knowledge and therefore you You have fourth -hand knowledge, and it's like there are people accusing her, and that's in her Wikipedia.

0:25:42 Thomas: Good point. Yeah. Yeah. Mm -hmm. Very weird.

0:26:01 Jenessa: This is how this all jumped off for me, is I heard that interaction, and I went, this can't be how it works. This can't Be True. There are 13 authors, and I thought, well, what I'm going to look up is, there's this thing where, people don't always realize this, some papers, not all papers, you can find this author just wrote the manuscript. Script this author you know this author collected the data and that's it yeah

0:26:25 Thomas: Interesting. Are you telling me I could get on some major scientific papers by like getting some people coffee or something? I be one of the one of the listed this scientist in quotes, made sure the AC was working good, not a good temperature, you know, supported back rubs, couple back rugs were pretty critical in this research.

0:26:37 Jenessa: This is a concern I

0:26:44 Lydia: There you go

0:26:46 Jenessa: Mean know the generous interpretation of a lot of this is like people need publications and people did contribute something intellectual here you go and that is how you end up with a paper with 24 authors

0:27:01 Thomas: Yeah. Okay. I'll give them a quote that's misattributed to Einstein and say, hey, this is your inspiration. And then I've contributed something intellectual. Sorry. No, don't distract. So you're saying that sometimes you're able to actually see who did what.

0:27:07 Jenessa: Perfect yes exactly so I thought ah yes what is clearly going on here is ronson who is not a scientist doesn't realize that uh you can sometimes find this and not every paper has it and sometimes it's not on the pdf of the paper sometimes it is on the website where the paper is hosted and I'm like I'm going to be sneaky and find it and I am going to find maybe Maybe what it is, is only Judy collected the data and everybody else involved, like, analyzed the data or like she collected it and gave them a digital file, but she didn't give them a physical cell.

0:27:49 Thomas: Or it's like, hey, Judy handled all the fraud and we did everything else. Could be what what it says yeah they

0:28:01 Jenessa: Possibly. So I was like, maybe that's the answer to this question. I'm a little frustrated that this person doesn't have it, but maybe it's because my experience as a scientist, I'll find this that your average journalist wouldn't. And it turns out it was just on the announcement about the retraction it says silverman yeah

0:28:20 Thomas: Wanted to get it straight okay uh while we're retracting this um let's get something absolutely clear here well

0:28:26 Jenessa: Silverman did the analysis and confirmed contamination like this is not an unknown of like well why didn't she turn over the cell lines is it an accident was there there definitely was contamination it wasn't she needs to turn overthecells other people had the cells this is known. Add

0:28:42 Thomas: Wait oh oh that's not what I was expecting so I thought so we were trying to answer a question of why would she be the only one who has the thing and was thinking you were going to say yeah she was the only one who did the thing you're saying no she wasn't the only woman who had the thing what what so how did we even get what the fuck or is it just a result of her insisting that no what happened here okay

0:29:05 Lydia: But nobody like nobody and

0:29:03 Jenessa: The cells. Oh, this is what transitions us into the part about the arrest. So what is really going on here is on the one, we've got two issues being conflated. On the one side, the part About confirming contamination of these samples for the paper in 2009 that will get get retracted in 2011. Judy doesn't need to turn over those cells because Silverman has that data and Silverman does confirm contamination and you can find that anywhere and everywhere because Silverman wanted everyone to know that he confirmed the contamination and wanted his name off of this.

0:29:56 Jenessa: Yes. So the question Jordan is asking, why can't other people turn over the cells? The answer is other people could turn overthe cells and did turn over the cells and confirm contamination. So this whole, oh, Judy, yeah, this thing about turn over the cells, what is happening? What you're probably doing is getting stream of consciousness from Judy. The reason Judy got fired is because after this was going on, the paper has not yet been retracted, but it's looking bad. In the meanwhile, basically unrelated, a box shows up at the lab with a different cell line having nothing to do with this. It's from Japan and

0:29:55 Lydia: Disavowed yeah yeah okay okay what

0:30:10 Thomas: But what is this other part where he says he was on the side of the Whitmores or whatever hmm

0:30:44 Jenessa: It's addressed that it's supposed to go to Dr. Lombardi, the first author on the paper. She decides that no it will not be god damn it it's my research and my cells don't give it to him I'm in charge he shouldn't be doing this and that's how she gets fired that's unrelated

0:31:08 Thomas: It's also just an unrelated experiment like it has nothing to do with what

0:31:12 Jenessa: It's like the next thing they're gonna do basically

0:31:14 Lydia: So so she just decided to take somebody's mail that's so petty

0:31:19 Jenessa: This is what transitions us into how she's going to get fired and arrested unrelated

0:31:24 Thomas: God all right well next time on where there's woke let's find out why this definitely above board person was arrested and all that what the hell okay this is crazy we're

0:31:34 Lydia: So messy

0:31:38 Jenessa: All we're at at this point um everything's kind of popping off in terms of people don't believe this study people are getting very suspicious but nobody's really accused anybody anybody of anything, except we find out Silverman behind the scenes is going, I'm very concerned.

0:31:57 Thomas: We backtracking a little oh okay well he's has he issued his full retraction he stuff or okay

0:32:03 Jenessa: The full retraction has not happened yet.

0:32:05 Thomas: So we're backtracing a little bit in our timeline right

0:32:07 Jenessa: Little bit to get to what is this whole thing about the turning over of the cell lines? What is this hole thing about, like, because Because eventually, we know, we've heard in the story, Judy gets arrested. And it's like, Jordan is saying, like, why would someone be in jail for five days for taking their own personal notebooks?

0:32:15 Thomas: For no reason

0:32:33 Jenessa: Doesn't

0:32:33 Thomas: Yeah because even if it's a civil thing like I'm not the lawyer but that how would you be in jail jail for five days. I mean, it could be.

0:32:40 Jenessa: Really sound like it adds up, does it?

0:32:42 Thomas: It doesn't.

0:32:43 Jenessa: No. Would you like to hear what happened from the affidavit of a Mr. Max Faust, her research assistant and alleged accomplice in this?

0:32:53 Thomas: Oh, accomplice. Okay. Well, so is this a reliable narrator or?

0:32:56 Jenessa: I I'm gonna just read it and you're gonna tell me because oh boy it is a sworn I do hereby swear under penalty of perjury that the following assertions are true I have personal knowledge of the matters herein blah blah blah okay

0:33:01 Thomas: It's a sworn affidavit. I've seen some real bullshit affidaviots in my recent life, though. So just letting you know it.

0:33:16 Jenessa: So a lot of this is where it's gonna get us is um really gonna get to probable cause for arrest is where this affidavit is supposed to get you and you can judge for yourself you know this does not have to necessarily get us to a criminal conviction this is what we're going to use for the arrest warrant so um worked for judy mikovits uh she was my boss at wpi On or about September 27th, 2011, there was a package delivered to the laboratory at wPI from Japan, the package which was addressed to Dr. Vince Lombardi. I opened the package and discovered that it contained cell lines that he was not allowed to have, according to Mikovits. I called Judy Mikovits and informed her about the cell lines from Japan addressed to dr. Lombardy. Mikovits informed me that she, quote, would take care of it. I've since been told by Annette Whittemore, the founder, president, and CEO, that Dr. Lombardi was indeed allowed to use the lines from Japan. On or about September 29, 2011, I went to the dentist from approximately 8:30 a.m. to noon, then I returned to WPI. Approximately 12:30, I asked Mikovits if I could go home because my teeth hurt. Approximately a week before this, I previously agreed to assist Mikovits in moving her personal items from her then residence at the Palladio at 3:30 p.m. that day. Mikovits agreed to let me leave work at approximately 1 p.m. but she reminded me I was to meet her at the Palladio to help her move and then drive her to the airport to rent a car as we previously agreed at approximately 2:30 p.m. I received a text message from Dr. Lombardi that asked me where I was I informed him that I was in the Howard building on the University of Reno Nevada campus even though I was at home just

0:35:06 Jenessa: Picturing this kid in the police station being like I told him I was in the lab but I was home and they're like get to the part where you stole shit like we don't care like my

0:35:17 Thomas: I'm gonna fails class if I yeah we don't care yeah

0:35:20 Jenessa: Hurt like who cares dr lombardi asked me to meet him at the wpi laboratory about a package so he just said I'm at the lab and he's at home and he said I'm not at the laboratory and I'm like I'm like cool meet me at the lav and he was like damn it so I contacted judy mikovits by her cell phone and informed her that dr lombardi was looking for the cells dr mikovits said she would quote handle it I texted dr lombardi and instructed him to contact mikovits I forwarded the text to mikovits and said see you at 3:30. A short time later when I was still at my home a residence owned by the mikovits judy guess he rents from her I called and said she had been fired for insubordination and insolence she was very angry she stated she'd had enough of WPI she stated that Dr. Lombardi has no right to do research work he should only be doing clinical work I know who

0:35:58 Thomas: Interesting yeah

0:35:59 Lydia: Wow why does she get to decide that

0:36:17 Thomas: What is that even about like I don't even I mean maybe we don'T need to get into it but so

0:36:21 Jenessa: Knows what's going through this woman's head

0:36:23 Thomas: She's I mean yeah she just is clearly something's wrong with her and she's has some bad is this a totally unrelated conflict her and in lombardi right

0:36:34 Jenessa: So I know of a lawsuit she will go on to file that will try to connect these that ends in 2020 I don't know if at the time she thought these were all connected. She has a very conspiratorial belief later on, so she stated that WPI would go down and that I should get out too. Drove Mikevitz to the airport to rent a car, but she forgot her driver's license.

0:36:50 Thomas: Maybe okay

0:37:03 Jenessa: I drove her back to the Palladio where she retrieved her license, and we again returned to the airport where she rented a Jeep Compass. We again met at the Palladio, where we packed many things into the car. I met Judy at the Sierra Tap House at 6 p.m. Mikovits stated she planned to move the grants from WPI. She stated she was going to try to move The R01 grant, that's like a fancy science grant, and the Department of Defense grants and stop the Lipkin study. Now, the Lipkins study is one that is in the process of debunking her. The whole XMRV thing.

0:37:35 Thomas: It is for debunking what oh okay wait so wait her lab her own lab is in the process of debunkING her well

0:37:46 Jenessa: The Lipkin study is out of a different lab in the NIH, I want to say, or the CDC.

0:37:53 Thomas: Then oh okay I thought she was saying she's trying to take the grants with her that what was that

0:37:57 Jenessa: She's trying to take grants with her from WPI to somewhere else and also stop the Lipkins study. I'm assuming unrelated.

0:38:06 Thomas: I linked them okay sorry I linked those two things

0:38:09 Jenessa: Of course she reasonably did, because she's raving about a bunch of different things at once, and they don't have anything to do with each other. So I expressed some skepticism to Mikevitz about whether she could take the research in samples, and stated that Dr. Lombardi would take over the projects and continue on behalf of WPI. He is correctly understanding how grants work here.

0:38:14 Thomas: Gotcha yeah

0:38:34 Jenessa: Grants are attached to the institution. Mikevitz stated that she was in charge of the research at WPI, so technically it was her research and she could move it somewhere else at any time.

0:38:44 Thomas: Don't think that's how that works yeah

0:38:45 Jenessa: No, no. Before I left the Sierra Tap House, Mikeviz gave me the keys to her desk and the keys of her office in order that I could gain access and take the WPI materials for Mykovitz. Mykovits then directed me to remove samples from the lab at WPI and all the notebooks from WPI containing irreplaceable research and data and provide them to her at a later date. Kept her laptop computer with the information from WFI with her. I left her at approximately 7:30 p.m. on November 29, 2011 and did not see her again until October 16, 2011. Between 4 and 5 a.m. on September 30, 2011, I went to WPI to attempt to obtain samples and notebooks for Mikevitz. I was unable to gain access, so I left and returned at approximately 8 a.m. and parked near the loading entrance. I attempted to gain access to the lab to obtain the samples, however, it was on lockdown and I could not obtain access. This I don't know why he says this I had the door key in my left hand and the desk key in my right hand and I went to mikovits's office and retrieved the materials in less than a minute I took between 12 and 20 notebooks for mikovitz I put half the notebooks in a backpack and carried the remaining out juggling locked the desk drawer and the office door and took the keys took the notebooks to my car and concealed the notebooks and then went through the front entrance at wpi and asked the employee at the desk what was going

0:40:14 Jenessa: On so I don't know oceans one is returning to the scene of the crime five minutes later and I was informed the lab was locked and we were all to go on vacation so I left at 9 a .m they clearly they just fired judy and they're like everybody get the fuck out of here I drove the notebooks to my mother's home where I stored them in her garage honor

0:40:26 Thomas: The fuck okay yeah that's fair yeah wow wait sorry was this a grad student who's this again live

0:40:40 Jenessa: Is us I tried so hard to find more information on this man if you google him the first hit is this affidavit and he has tried

0:40:51 Thomas: Your life in such a way ladies Ladies and gentlemen, that the first result for you is not your sworn affidavit. I'm just saying.

0:40:58 Jenessa: My god he has successfully gone underground I can't find was he a bachelor's student was he a

0:41:04 Thomas: But, yeah, it sounds like he's, like, she's, I mean, it Sounds like she's of kind abusing her authority a to make this poor guy do some stuff he probably shouldn't do. And he's naively doing some, like tricks to try to do all this stuff. Up and and it sounds like it seems like greg move I'm wrong what happened is he's like oh shit this was wrong hey let me tell you everything police or something you know yeah

0:41:09 Lydia: He's young yeah yeah oh

0:41:30 Jenessa: I'm just picturing him like in his pajamas crying in a police station like he's I just I'll never get over because my teeth hurt like no one cares all right whatever on or about October 16, 2011 Mikevitz flew back to Reno for the purpose of retrieving the notebooks and WPI property. Requested that I set up a new separate email account for our secret communications about WPI, and she would do the same. New email address is jnaprilann18 at gmail.com. My new email is mafost at gmail.com, that is just his name.

0:41:32 Thomas: I'm just a lab worker I didn't know yeah yeah yeah top

0:42:09 Jenessa: His secret special email address. It's just first initial, middle initial, last name, etch email. Great job, everybody. Mike Devitz has repeatedly asked me to send items from the lab and to send them to Dr. Frank Rossetti. Many of the items requested, I know, many of the atoms requested are irreplaceable. I did not send her additional items. On the 16th, I gave her all of the notebooks I took from WPI on September 30th. She informed me she would store them in a safe location. Mikevitz rented another car and drove the notebooks to the Los Angeles area. Note that we are in Reno, Nevada. She's taking them to Los Angeles, California. Mikeviz informed me, she was hiding out on a boat to avoid being served with papers from

0:42:10 Thomas: Secret hmm interesting oh

0:42:57 Jenessa: WPI. I don't know what, like, I said this to my partner and he was like, does she think those, that's international waters like she's not gonna get served like genuinely

0:43:05 Thomas: Maritime law baby gold fringe on the flag I wouldn't put it past her I really wouldn't

0:43:14 Lydia: She's just off the coast of california

0:43:16 Thomas: Yeah like I'm also starting a gambling casino in this boat who's

0:43:18 Jenessa: I don't know this is all like a coen brothers movie at this point um I provided her with the wpi materials I turned in her keys and other employee materials to wpi I told wpi mike if it says just mailed me the keys which was not true uh page here mike if its retained a black laptop laptop she used while at WPI that contains information belonging to WPI. She has purchased a new computer since that time. She's been in contact with Lipkin through others, including Rossetti. The one who's busy debunking her.

0:43:53 Thomas: Lipkin oh right yeah how

0:43:58 Jenessa: Yep. She'd been in contact with lipkin through other including Dr. Rossetti and others about transferring grants and research projects away from WPI based on the information she has stolen. The end of our affidavit of max faust who you will find good luck find more information about this man I want to know I

0:43:57 Lydia: Nih yeah let's

0:44:16 Thomas: The fuck would that logic work hey can we transfer these grants under a finder's keeper's rule or possession is nine -tenths of the law rule what was that last sentence can we transfer them on the basis of I stole it so mine so

0:44:27 Jenessa: Don't I don' don't, I... there's no logic in this place

0:44:37 Thomas: And once again, we're gonna have to cut in to be the killjoys. We're your chaperone parents saying hey Enough partying. You gotta cut it out for part three. Yeah, yeah of this series, but that's okay because There's more partying to come. We are We're not all bad because we're like hey come over tomorrow smoke some more pot with us. It'll be fun party party. Cause next time in part four, which is the final Jenessa part. Well, I should put final in quotes. Cause you just never know.

0:44:44 Lydia: It's curfew.

0:45:06 Thomas: Like it might be that like another month goes by and we're like, wait, we need to say more, but for now the final Genessa part of this and the final officially the breakdown episode of episode two. Part four, the final part, or is it, of this one, because we're going to do a little bonus about it, but it's the final official part. Uh, going to talk about this, being arrested and we're going to GET INTO HOW NOT ONLY UNRELIABLE SHE IS IN TELLING THAT STORY, but also in Ronson, just not doing a good job with it. It's not, it's bad. It's

0:45:06 Lydia: You never know that's true. Not great

0:45:42 Thomas: NOT good, not a good JOB.

0:45:43 Lydia: Skepticism.

0:45:45 Thomas: So it's really fascinating. What really happened with this arrest and, uh was it as bad as Judy makes it out to be and reminding you that this is like the linchpin in John Ronson's theory that like, but for this arrest, that was this great injustice that happened to her. She was just living and she's normal. She's just like going to be a totally normal scientist person making drinks at a yacht club or whatever. But no, this happened and that turned her evil or whatever, and we'll see how well that that stacks up. Yep. On the next Where There's Woke, everything I just said, because I forgot to say, well, on the next where there's woke before I said it.