DOD147: No Kids Allowed

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that gets no respect.

0:00:32 Thomas: Hi.

0:00:32 Tom: I'm Tom Curry. I've joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:38 Eli: Hello?

0:00:42 Tom: I think the most important thing about an intro is to quote a comedian from, I don't know what, the early 1980s? Problematic, deeply

0:00:50 Eli: Oh, Oh, re I - am I doing someone's problematic re - is that?

0:00:52 Thomas: I, No. Respect. No. That's no, that still get The Rodrigy. Danger Fan He's

0:00:55 Eli: Oh it drives

0:00:54 Tom: Dangerfield. I Get No. Respect. He

0:00:55 Eli: You - Roddy Dangerfield is not problematic!

0:00:58 Thomas: Not Oh. Well, He's dead, so

0:01:00 Tom: Is Now he

0:01:01 Eli: He's - I'm not gonna watch any clips, I am sure he's problematic, but as far as I remember, he's not problematic.

0:01:01 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. I Can't Imagine He's He's not problematic. He's just not funny.

0:01:08 Eli: He was an insult comedian. It was so good.

0:01:10 Thomas: Yeah. Not funny.

0:01:11 Eli: And it was funny because he would just - he would be like, "Hey, sir, thanks for coming, is that your your wife or your dog?" And everyone was like, "I fucking love this guy, that's great." He said, "My wife is ugly. I hate her because I'm a boomer." This is the best. I'm in Las Vegas, we're having a great time. Do you know the Don Uh, story about Frank Sinatra. So Don Rickle's open for Frank Sinatra literally because Don Rickel's mother was friends with Frank Sinandra's mother and was like, "How come your boy never gets my boy any work?" And so Frank Sinestra's mom called Frank and was was like, "There's this comedian out in Vegas and he opens for you now."

And Frank Sinatra was like, "But Ma, I gotta sing a song." And she was like, "No, he opens feet." So they have this working relationship, he opens für Frank Sinandra the entire time he's in Vega, uh, Don Rickles has a first date with the woman who will turn out to be his wife, right? And so before the show he comes up to Frank, he says, "Frank, we're gonna be eaten in the casino after the show. It would really mean a ton if you would would come over and, like, say hi. She would be really impressed she got a chance to meet you." And and Sinatra, for those who don't know, used to literally go straight from stage into a limo home again.

He hated the star culture. He was a very socially anxious person. He's also a giant bag of shit, that's a different story. So he's like, "Ah, Don, I don't really do that, it'll take me so long to get through." "Please, Frank, just this one time. I really like this girl, mean the world to you." He's saying, "Okay, fine, what restaurant are you gonna mean?" He tells him the restaurant, right? So So he walks over to Don, he does the show, makes his way through the casino floor, signs a million autographs, takes a million pictures, right, does all this stuff, finally makes his way over to Dan Rickles' table. Don sees him and says, Frank, I told you not to bother me while I'm eating.

0:01:11 Thomas: No, sorry.

0:01:23 Thomas: Jesus.

0:01:27 Tom: No.

0:02:47 Tom: Were

0:02:49 Eli: But gentlemen, do you know the only thing that's a worse insult than that? Why it's the auto ads. Yes, the auto adds, they're in there. They're in our podcasting. Maybe you've already heard one. Maybe you're already heard seven, but there's one way to remove them from your podcast enjoyment experience and that's by supporting the show over at patreon.com forward slash dear old dads, where you'll get a commercial free extended version of every single show, get a little parenting story at the end of every show. Sometimes Tom shows up for that part of the show, not always, not always, he's a busy man, but sometimes when he feels like it he's a part of that show. You also get bonus episodes, my friends. We just recorded another AMA.

0:03:31 Thomas: Yeah, big news.

0:03:32 Eli: Yeah, we talked about self-care and massages.

0:03:35 Thomas: Now, Eli, how many questions do we have left in that particular AMA?

0:03:38 Eli: Uh, we have three questions left in that AMA, but we did only get through two today when we recorded it

0:03:44 Tom: Trying for five

0:03:45 Eli: Yeah.

0:03:45 Thomas: Damn it. Did we not? I thought we were going to get, why didn't we lighten around the last one? Oh my God.

0:03:46 Eli: So said the words lightning round, but you did not know who you were podcasting with. You can't just say lightning round and then it is a lightning round, that's not how it works. But you can get all of that over at patreon.com forward slash dear old dads for as little as a dollar. Check it out. Patreon.come forward slash dear old dads. Rip into it. Rip into it.

0:03:58 Thomas: Damn. I thought that's how it worked.

0:04:14 Thomas: I was just going to say, and then I didn't make the joke because I didn't want to. I was going to put up a days since last ripped into it. And it. And I think we'd gotten to like one or two and I was really proud of that.

0:04:24 Eli: We never I would never forget rip into a Thomas

0:04:26 Tom: Since we've ripped into it, we've kept the rip I did see the fan art Yeah, it

0:04:29 Thomas: Did you see the the art, the fan art Yeah. That's Eli

0:04:34 Eli: What is it

0:04:35 Thomas: Meant to send it because you're not on anything but someone made a fan art rip into it of our logo. It's fantastic.

0:04:37 Eli: I'm not on anything I'm

0:04:40 Thomas: It's Really good.

0:04:40 Tom: Was great

0:04:40 Eli: So sad I miss that. Thank you for making that, whoever made it. That makes me so happy. That's, to be fair, before I became a crazy person, that's what my relationship was with the audience. People would make a nice thing and I'd be like, Oh, thank you so much and then I was like, in 2014 someone said I wasn't funny on Instagram and now have to be trapped in a small glass bubble of gentle fiction. Patreon.com forward slash DOD. Let's rip into it. Right, gentlemen. So now we've heard a Verizon commercial in Spanish, probably, at least if you're in my neighborhood, a little story, and it got me thinking about a topic. So we went to go see some friends this week, live about a two-hour drive from us, a event in their lives. I'm being vague. Uh, my sister listens to this show, my sister's a narc, so I'm gonna be vague, though obviously now

0:04:54 Thomas: Yep. It's Amazing. Rip into, yeah.

0:05:35 Eli: She would just know what I'm talking about, so I've sort of defeated the thing. Yeah. I don't know I don't know what the purpose is this for. Don't tell on me, Lily. Damn.

0:05:36 Thomas: I'm not sure Yeah. Now you should just Yeah. Also You should

0:05:38 Tom: I don't know if this is helping

0:05:43 Thomas: Also just hate your family. It's great. Just like

0:05:45 Eli: It I don t, I love my family. We

0:05:45 Thomas: Sure. Sure. You're the one who's scared to tell a story about them. Yeah.

0:05:49 Eli: Went to a family event about two hours away, and I, I really love this family, but the event was very clearly for them and their friends. It was not something that me and my family should have been at, and Max was the only child there, um, was the only male chromosome there besides my son, but like, I don't, I mind that, like it was very clearly like a local event for friends.

And what it struck me, while it was a lovely event and I really appreciated the invite, like struck me this thing, and I wanted to see if this resonated with you, is that when you have really young kids, a lot of people, like, don't really take into account how difficult it is for you and your kids to be at a place, right? So like, if you have a wedding and I have to move my four-year-old to a different state and have him sleep in a different place for that weekend, like, I love your special day, I love you, I value you, I cherish you, I can't wait to celebrate with you, but like, understand that what me and my family will go through to do

0:06:28 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Oh Fuck, yeah.

0:06:50 Eli: That is significantly negative for us, right? I think that that doesn't often get talked about among parents because there's sort of this, like, you should be apologizing for having kids in the first place mentality, especially when it comes to, like, fun stuff, right? Because often what happens is that family that have grown children or children that that are old enough to just enjoy the event will throw the event, and they're like throwing a party or doing a fun thing, inviting you on a vacation, right? Something like that. And so for everyone else it is a treat that they are doing for their friends and family, and for you it's kind of a burden. And I think because we recognize that societally we often sort of go hard in the other direction, which is like, I guess if you want to bring your kids to my wedding you can, right? And And we can also talk about like kid-free weddings and what an insane concept that is, right? Close to wife -free weddings that would be. Just like,

0:06:50 Thomas: It's so much, what Okay.

0:07:47 Eli: Hey, you know that thing you love with your whole heart? I don't. I want to have one without any dames there. So please, no fucking dames. Right? Like that's what

0:07:59 Tom: That's the craziest thing I ever heard are

0:08:00 Thomas: I don't sign on to that. Yeah. I

0:08:01 Eli: - free wedding is like. That's what it is. It's just you being like, right.

0:08:04 Thomas: Think you should be allowed to have a kid-free wedding and just understand that people might not be able to go to it. That's fine. Whatever.

0:08:06 Eli: Right. But then like never speak to the person about it, Don't. Right, be like, oh, you're not coming of course I'm not fucking coming

0:08:11 Thomas: What? No, you can, no, you can get a fucking babysitter. You can, you can maybe.

0:08:14 Eli: Yeah. I'll just leave my kid alone with someone who statistically molest them. That sounds fucking great.

0:08:20 Tom: You gonna live your whole life without babysitters? That's not you have a nanny

0:08:23 Thomas: I mean, I'm not even, I, yeah. You had an, I was almost doing that. Yeah. You're going to lecture me. I was almost the one doing that and I never had childcare until we finally found some little bit here and there for like one night. It was amazing.

0:08:25 Tom: You clearly don't subscribe to that view.

0:08:39 Thomas: Yeah, no. No, sometimes Lydia's parents can can look after them so we can go to the puzzle and all that.

0:08:34 Eli: Yay. Ever in my whole life. That's true. They do. That in the pajama

0:08:45 Thomas: But I know I and we've talked about how there's no good solution to this. And we've talking about I think early on bears repeating like the difficulty of keeping friends when you become a new parent, because they don't have kids, they don' t have any idea, really. And even if they do, they can' t really like it. Or if they do, then they're just like, well, you don't have time. And then the relationship kind of just doesn't have time anyway, because there's feel like there's a sense in which sometimes they're like, yeah, okay, I get all that that you just said, Eli, about how it's impossible to take, you know, your kids somewhere especially with, if we have to go on a trip somewhere and stay in a hotel that just means I don't get to sleep then, because it's Impossible to

0:08:45 Eli: Party.

0:09:23 Eli: Right.

0:09:23 Thomas: Do it. And so there does seem to be a sense in which they're like, yeah, okay. But like for this once, can't you just neglect your kids and you're Like, no, if I ever do that, I'm in trouble. You can't. Yeah.

0:09:31 Eli: Right. The The Government comes and takes

0:09:35 Thomas: There's this very human instinct that's like, okay, but like, surely sometimes you ought to be able to. It's like, no, no.

0:09:35 Eli: Him away. On Yeah.

0:09:43 Thomas: There's pretty much, uh, you Got to be 100 on that one.

0:09:44 Eli: It's a hundred percent. All

0:09:47 Thomas: Like, you don't get Yeah. Perfect.

0:09:47 Eli: The way. In. He's got a perfect score. I know it's very intense.

0:09:49 Thomas: Perfect record. Yeah. Yeah.

0:09:51 Eli: It's very intense. And it's this weird thing because you can feel those friendships severing sometimes, right? Or you can fill them distancing. And I don't know about you guys, but because I have very young friends, and you guys have met most of them, who are like just now getting married, right, and definitely don't have kids. And so a lot of their lives are the lives of either newly married or single people. And so they're like, well well, I'm thinking we'll have dinner at nine. I'm like, I don't know. I'm fucking asleep at nine, I must sleep. I'm unconscious in my home at 9 p .m. And so the interesting thing that I think doesn't get to get talked about, Because right? In sort of modern popular thing, it's like, ah, the old ball and chains. I hate my kids, I wish I could be free.

As opposed to like the genuine sadness you feel that people make so little space for you in their lives, and how little, like, your really important needs matter to them in that moment, like ignored you feel, and how left behind you feel in those moments. I don't know, I wanted to know if that was sort of because again, like, I, I, this family, I love them so much, but I couldn't help but feel like, ah, wow, I really didn't even merit, like, a second thought about this, huh? Like, Like, this was just, this is just a click on the old Evite and a text message. And that was all, was all the thought that went towards me and my beautiful little favorite person.

0:09:55 Thomas: Wow. Yeah.

0:10:20 Tom: I Guess I feel a little differently about it, but I, I empathize with a few points for sure. Like, to have family, which, thank God, I don't anymore, that would invite me to, um,

0:11:25 Thomas: It's the best

0:11:26 Eli: And wish you wouldn't talk about Eamon that way, Tom. It's, it's so, so

0:11:28 Tom: Not aiming. Stop it with that. It's stop it with that. Stop It with that stop it genuinely stop it with that that

0:11:30 Eli: Sad. Eamons, if you're listening to this in therapy, it was so sad

0:11:31 Thomas: You should hear the things I don't let into the show, he says about Eamon. Fuck

0:11:37 Eli: That I couldn't

0:11:38 Tom: Have family gatherings that everybody was expected to attend and they'd be like, oh, we're, you know, we're all going to meet at this like very nice restaurant and this was like when Finn was like an actual baby and I would be like, okay. Well, I'm expected to go. We're all gonna go and then what's going to happen is I'm going to walk around outside bouncing a kid and

0:11:57 Eli: Yeah, while my steak gets cold.

0:11:57 Thomas: Yep.

0:11:59 Tom: Yeah, or like, or on several occasions just did not get a chance to eat this because is not a space that is appropriate for him to be in

0:12:02 Thomas: Wait, you don't get to take a break from just having a kid, like you're just, hey, time out, time out on kid and then you drop it and then you don't get to do that. Is that not how it works?

0:12:08 Eli: Time out. Right.

0:12:07 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. No. No. Not at all. Like what I, what I felt was exceptionally rude about that was the expectation that I go. Right, so it wasn't like a, it was not an invite that could be declined. Right. So if that invite was declined, it would not have been taken. And if there was any pushback, like, hey, that's really not a great space because I was the only one with a little kid. So everybody else, like to your point, everybody else in the family at that time didn't have little kids.

I was the only one with the little kids that was like, well, we all just want to go to this nice restaurant. And so this is where we're going to have Easter dinner or whatever is at this nice restaurant downtown. I'd be like, that's going to be horrible for me. That is just going to be the worst for, know, because like I was also like very much of the mind that, like, okay, like if he starts crying, like this, this is, these are my in-laws, so like they should be together and I'll pop out outside and I will grab, you know, I'll grab the kid

0:12:13 Thomas: Yeah. I

0:12:49 Eli: Right. Right.

0:13:01 Tom: And be outside and

0:13:01 Eli: Exactly.

0:13:02 Thomas: Sometimes fake having a baby so that I can do that. Yeah what

0:13:04 Tom: So Like, I did feel like that was just, just fantastically, unbelievably rude, rude every time that that happened. I was like, this, this sucks super bad. But I think in a lot of other occasions, it's kind of on me to ask people, Hey, is this kid friendly? This Is a kid friendly event that you've invited me to? And if they say like, Hey, kids. You are welcome, but we don't really have anything to get on. Like, okay. I may or may not attend that event. And I'm very comfortable being like, yeah, I may, may or may not attend that event with, again, the caveat that there was some small numbers of events that were very much like, you're going to this, this is like, if you don't go, like, this is going to create problems in the family what's

0:13:41 Thomas: Did the police tell you who tells you that that's that's

0:13:43 Tom: Going to create problems in the families. What I mean, like ex-in-laws, like it was expected to do certain holidays together. If you didn't, it was going to be like, you're going to fucking hear about it. It's going to be a whole thing. So easier to walk around outside with a kid than it would be to, to deal with that bullshit. Easier, actually, to get rid of that whole family, it turns out. Than to deal with that bullshit. But of times, Eli, I think it's on the person with kids, especially if your social circle doesn't have kids. Because my social circle, most of my friends do not have kids and are not going to have kids, so almost none of my friends, and we're all in our 40s and 50s now, don't have kids, and they're not going to have kids.

So when they have an event or a party or something like that, I'll just ask, like, hey, is this kid -friendly or not? And they're they're pretty good about being like, yeah, this is kid friendly. Bring the kids. I'm like, all right, awesome. And then that kind of sets up an expectation too, because it opens a dialogue that you can have back and forth about, oh shit, like I'm hosting something and they're going to bring kids.

And then they typically do kind of make space for that. Or like, at least it allows you to open up a dialogue about like, okay, if it's kid friendly, is there going to be a space for my kid to take a nap? Maybe it's something they're just not thinking about because

0:13:53 Thomas: So weird. For Do that

0:14:48 Eli: Right,

0:14:48 Tom: It's been a long time since they've had kids or they don't have themselves. I think that's like a good way to, to kind of broach that or bridge that gap.

0:14:48 Eli: Yeah. A lot of the time, my in experience, when someone, especially without kids, thinks that a thing is kid -friendly, they mean I own a television, which is really weird, because then not only do I have to expose myself as a non-screens weirdo, but I have have to expose my friend as a raised-by-screens weirdo, which is always weird, because I'll be like, oh no, I can't just put them in the other room with the TV, and they'll be like, oh no, my parents used to do that with me all the time, and I'll be like, yeah, but you know how you have to fall asleep to Bob's Burgers, and if you don't, you have an anxiety attack and start sobbing? And they're like, I'm like, cool, aiming in a different direction I

0:15:03 Thomas: One

0:15:30 Tom: I guess, like, how would you want him to have space for a little kid? Yeah

0:15:34 Eli: That is the question, right? And I, I do think, as I was listening to you speak right now, it really is about drawing better lines, minds. It's, and not like I asked this family member, is this a kid-friendly event? The family member was just very insistent that we bring Max too, so I assumed that it would be a kid-friendly event, but I didn't say like hey, is this the event that's going to be friendly for a four-year-old? And look, he didn't have a miserable time, right? It wasn't a funeral where we had to stay in silence, right? He was allowed to run around, and she'd even bought bought him a toy that he could play with, but like, he's four, he played with the toy and then he was like, great, what next?

And I was like ah, four more hours is what's next to my son and he was like oh, let's fucking bail and I was yeah, let bail. Answer your question honestly, I think it's about having better boundaries for myself and actually being okay being like, hey, I would really love to come to this event, I'm really sad that I'm going to miss it, but I have a kid, this isn't gonna be a kid-friendly situation, so we will not see you. We're not gonna be there. Yeah

0:15:52 Thomas: Might assume Yeah. Yeah.

0:16:36 Tom: I think that's piece of it, because like Cecil doesn't have kids. Most of my, yeah, like I said, most of my friends don't have kids. Um, think they've been been pretty good about making sure not to invite, especially when the kids were really little. I did not get invited to things, and I still don't get invited things that, like, they're just, they're just gonna, they know that I've got, you know, all four kids on a certain day, and like they want to go out to dinner, and that's just not going to be an invite that I'm going to get, you know, that I otherwise probably would have gotten. And I think there was a part of me that used to feel like kind kind of hurt by that. Be like, I still want to get, still want to get the invite.

0:17:09 Eli: Because you miss them. I miss my friends, like

0:17:12 Tom: Too, and I did like, when I first had kids, I recognized like, yeah, but I formed a friendship with Cecil that was between like, using him as an example, that is just between me and him. And if I decide to change my life and add more people into my life, doesn't create a different obligation for him to anything other than polite, right? Doesn't mean that he has to like love all the same people I love or enjoy the company of all the same people. I enjoy the company of, like, built a friendship that was just between he and I, and like, I think it's okay for him to be like, yeah, that's our space for us to be friends, and like, I, you know, I don't want to spend that time a hundred percent hanging out with you and your kid. I that I think actually think that that's, it's a perfectly fair thing for me to recognize about him too, is that it's not really fair for me to be like, Hey, because we're friends, you also love my kid.

0:17:30 Eli: Yeah.

0:17:57 Eli: No. No, totally.

0:17:58 Thomas: Yeah.

0:18:03 Tom: Right. And I know that's not what you're saying, but I think that that's also a kind of backward expectation.

0:18:03 Eli: Yeah. Right.

0:18:06 Thomas: We can acknowledge that for people who are not into kids, it's really boring for them, like that's fine. I get, it like but once again, can't really just abandon them, so it's like a question, always the calculation Yeah.

0:18:13 Eli: Of course Yeah, but also like

0:18:21 Thomas: You

0:18:21 Eli: There's always this thing too. There's always the, like, I'm not a kid person, and it's like, yeah, but that's my favorite person, right? And Tom were very casually at lunch, eating big hoagies, and I was like, you know, Tom, I don't really like Haley. After he was done squishing me into the smallest conceivable cube, he would probably explain to me that it doesn't matter how you feel about my favorite person. You are obligated to not voice that within a certain extent of politeness. And I, I think the message that I have always received, and this is again me indulging in invisible contracts, which very bad about, uh, the notion that, like, yeah, but if you love me you will recognize that this is my favorite person, and like, you will kind of sort of love my kid too, right?

0:19:07 Tom: Oh, really?

0:19:07 Eli: Because it's in a thing that's like an unspoken contract. No, I, and, and I want to be clear, I'm not saying that's okay. I'm contract that I'm creating that now that you say it out loud, I recognize is unhealthy.

0:19:12 Thomas: These expectations, interesting.

0:19:14 Tom: Yeah.

0:19:19 Thomas: That's interesting. I, I do you have, and this is me, uh, who does the, like, over the top, or not even over the top, but not just like, oh yeah, you know, I don't have kids, not really a kid a what person, that's fine, like totally fine. The people are like, ew, gross, kid. I'm like, oh, don't need to ever talk to you again, sorry.

0:19:37 Eli: Cool.

0:19:37 Thomas: Don't needs to do it, don't to talk. Very few people, and to even be considered is a privilege, and So the minutes of, ew, you can't, you, I'm like, all right, see you never, dude.

0:19:42 Eli: In the running. Just being

0:19:44 Tom: I've Gotten, I've super lucky, I will say that even though most of the people in my life socially don't have kids, I don't have any that have been hostile in that way, like that hostility that you're describing, or that like, like where they just express a purposeful disinterest so that you know that they don't enjoy, like, thank god nobody's done that bullshit. And like, I will say Cecil has been nothing but like an outstanding friend and to my Kids.

0:20:12 Eli: Of course. Horse, yeah. Oh.

0:20:14 Tom: I also know he would strongly prefer to spend all of his time with adults. I know that about him, but I also Know that he does understand your point, Eli, that if he's going to be important in my life, he's got to make space for the people that I love in my Life. I that there's a balance that we have to find some way to strike, recognizing that you've established a relationship, but also these are the most important people in my life. Especially and most importantly, while the kids are young, it does become a way less of an issue as the kids get older, like because anti-kid people tend to chill the fuck out as kids get older with older kids what They mostly mean.

0:20:53 Eli: Yeah, because it's a little person. Right?

0:20:54 Tom: Is they don't like babies. That's what most of them mean.

0:20:56 Eli: Well, I, let's mean be honest, what they don't like is not being the center of attention. Every person who is like vehemently anti-kid is just that way because they deeply, deeply need to be the center of all attention at all times, myself included, who was Because, and can I say, I still resent when you're like, she said such a funny thing. I'm like, let's fucking hear it. Let's hear it on air. Tell her to debate me on serious inquiries only. Joke off. Let's go.

0:21:01 Thomas: Yeah.

0:21:14 Thomas: That was Eli's reaction to baby.

0:21:25 Thomas: Eli so quickly, you know, had his own kid and moved on as though none of that ever happened. Like just instantly. And it was like, Tom, you're definitely interested in my baby.

0:21:30 Eli: And was like, Thomas, Thomas. Nintendo. With

0:21:35 Thomas: Yeah.

0:21:35 Eli: An M.

0:21:36 Thomas: And I was like yeah, that's, that is great.

0:21:36 Eli: I mean, don't you fucking

0:21:38 Thomas: I actually agree with that. Yeah, totally fine. Fine.

0:21:39 Tom: Yeah.

0:21:38 Eli: Love it? Isn't that the best? I've never felt any different way. And we're all cash money and chill here.

0:21:48 Thomas: Nintendo.

0:21:48 Eli: Yeah, no, it's a... Nintendo is fantastic. Yeah, it is. It's an interesting dynamic.

0:21:54 Thomas: We're don't see our friends as much anymore. I mean, there's a lot of reasons, obviously there's also, you Know, work stuff, but it's, but It's also like, I'm not getting there been

0:22:01 Eli: Guys all fucked at that slumber party. Made things a little weird, yeah.

0:22:05 Thomas: Awkward ever since. Well, What's been the most awkward is just Lydia tries to get it gone again so much, you know, and everybody's like, "Oh man, okay." Just

0:22:10 Eli: Right. They come over for dinner and Lydia's serving everyone like hot chocolate and lavender tea. Stokes a roaring fireplace and changes into her pajamas.

0:22:19 Thomas: The apron Yeah. Yeah.

0:22:20 Eli: Yeah. I get it. Fucking other people's wives? Rude. Dude, rip into it, as we say.

0:22:20 Thomas: Yeah. No. But it's, it's also You you know, have fewer You have fewer things in common, you know, over time, you don't know, and it's, it's hard because is like their lives continued on what they were doing and ours totally shifted, and it's nobody's fault, but often it's like, well, we're doing stuff, we're taking our kids to fucking baseball, we're, do you know, like, we're a lot of stuff that's re- not also coincidentally going and playing little league, you know, know, like They

0:22:29 Eli: Yeah.

0:22:51 Tom: Right.

0:22:51 Eli: That's Makes parent friends so much more valuable, like I, I know I've mentioned on the show before that I have a group of sort of dad friends that are based in the preschool, uh who we snuggle with, and I'm actually, we're, our next bro trip happens to line up with our next live show, which means I'm missing the bro trip, and I am genuinely so devastated. It's, I was so sad about it, I had to be like, "Hey man, you're 37 and you have to get over this, you're a grown-up, and that's your job." But yeah, like, so funny because, like, we are planning something among the parent friends, and to be in that WhatsApp chat where there are 97 conditionals because everyone understands, like, "Okay, so whose kid doesn't eat square

0:22:51 Tom: Right, right.

0:22:56 Thomas: Who with sleep and snuggle with Tom

0:23:32 Eli: Pizza? We need to know that right now," like, for everyone to understand, like who's taking, who's taking naps and who's not taking nabs and who is doing this and who not doing that. Like, I think part of what cements those friendships between parents, because I always wondered what my parents' friendships functioned, right? Would not naturally have chosen a lot of the people they ended up being friends with because I was friends with those people's kids, right? What I recognize now is one of the reasons that you really come to like and love people that are your parent friends is they understand this experience that you're going through, right? And they, like, offer to help and offer to do stuff. My one, one of my buddies, like, sick, everyone in his family got sick this week, and so our little dad's chat was like, "Hey, you want us to grub up something? You want to bring something over?" And like, like, doing parenthood without that support is something I think we've all experienced.

0:23:36 Thomas: Yeah. That's so funny.

0:24:24 Thomas: It's the only way I've ever done it. Yeah. Sounds

0:24:26 Tom: Yeah

0:24:26 Eli: And now I'm just experiencing it with that support. And it's so much fucking easier and so much fuckin' better.

0:24:32 Thomas: Nice. But do you guys all get together and fuck though? Or rip into

0:24:37 Eli: Mean, look, I'm open to it. You know, it's, uh, you gotta be careful. You gotta be fearful.

0:24:43 Thomas: It? Yeah.

0:24:44 Eli: Into it. Rip into what? That's the polite way to ask when you when you want to fuck your fellow dads. Guys, if you're ever feeling like it, we could, um, rip into it.

0:24:46 Thomas: Rip into it would it

0:24:50 Tom: Uh

0:24:57 Eli: You know, it'd be so weird if we ripped into it.

0:24:58 Thomas: Be so funny if we ripped into it, right? Now Yeah. Oh, What

0:25:01 Tom: Just do some ripping.

0:25:02 Eli: Oh, my god, we would do it as, like, an ironic secret at first, but then then we'd rip into it and

0:25:02 Thomas: If what But yeah, but like, yeah, it's a joke. Yeah. Yeah, sure.

0:25:13 Tom: So I guess I want to turn the question around a little bit on you, Eli. So did you, had kids, did you make space for other people's kids? Did you already know this so

0:25:21 Eli: And that's the best part. Is I was such an unbearable asshole about all of this, like, as much as I like gently poke fun at the anti-kid people, the worst stereotype of all of those things was me until the second I met Anna Bosnick, literally the moment I met Annabelle. The moment beforehand, if you had been been like, "Eli, do 10 super chill minutes on how annoying babies on planes are," I would have been like, "Allow me," right?

0:25:48 Tom: Like I was just thinking about, like, when you, the opening to this conversation is, it kind of comes back to like what sort of social contract responsibilities do people have if they're gonna try to engage with people that have kids, and especially in almost exclusively like really young kids. You and know, like, I think too, that like people forget very quickly once their kids get older or are grown, how much just stuff and work and like logistics go into those kids. I don't know why we forget, but we do, we just forget. It's not, part it's of our daily life consideration. So we just sort of drop that. Mean, we can help people do that? Like, I think we can kind of help steer them in the right direction.

And the reason I asked you is I thought that would be the answer. And it certainly would have been the answer for me. Like before I had kids, nobody in my life had kids. Certain that if I knew somebody that had kids, I would not have even known what space to make. I wouldn't have even thought like, oh, I should have a quiet, dark space because they're going to need to take

0:26:06 Eli: Yeah.

0:26:48 Thomas: Yeah.

0:26:48 Tom: A nap. It literally wouldn't have occurred to me. I wonder wonder if there are things we can do so that like, not in this point of tension where it's like, oh, that person's an inconsiderate asshole. They're don't see all this work that I have to do. It's like well, but We're not helping them see that.

0:27:01 Thomas: Yeah, I don't feel that way at all. Yeah.

0:27:03 Tom: You know what I mean? Like if we help good people, well -intentioned, loving people see what you need, I'd be willing to bet we'd get a lot less tension. Like would get mad when I was like walking around outside the restaurant and be like, does nobody fucking notice I'm out here not eating a food or walking around this restaurant? And the answer was like, no, they're busy talking to each other, enjoying their time. That's a normal thing. Like they're not thinking about you because you're not right in front of them. And that's how people work, whether that's fair or not fair, actually doesn't matter.

What would have been better is if I said, Hey guys, I'll meet you at that restaurant and I'm going to have to do this in shifts so I get a chance to eat? Or can we go to a different restaurant? That one I know is not going to be kid-friendly. But because we've kind of made that all really uncomfortable, I certainly as a young parent did not have those conversations. I wonder if there's a way we can give people advice on how to have good conversations to meet expectations so we can have our cake and eat it too.

0:27:03 Thomas: Oh.

0:27:21 Eli: Right.

0:27:56 Eli: Well, Yeah, and and also to not have those secret contracts, right, not have the private expectation that someone's going to meet your needs, but to have the bravery to ask for those things.

0:28:00 Tom: Right.

0:28:06 Thomas: Man, I'm, I, yeah, I think that was directed at Eli because I couldn't be, yeah, I, I totally understand, and and again, I'm always looking for a reason not to socialize. It's fantastic. It couldn't be better. Was that you didn't consider that I have kids. Awesome, man, you guys have fun, that sounds great. Yeah, I

0:28:22 Eli: You never, I

0:28:18 Tom: Well, Kids are the ultimate get-out-of-plans-free card, right? Like Oh. Yeah. So

0:28:26 Eli: Mean

0:28:26 Thomas: And I genuinely don't have hard feelings about, like, I genuinely just, like, kind of, I, I kind of meet people where they are. At least someone isn't gonna change their lives for how I've changed my life, that's fine. I don't know. Like, it is what it is to me. I don't know.

0:28:38 Tom: What about kid-free airplanes? What are your thoughts on kid free airplanes

0:28:40 Thomas: I just don'T think it makes sense as a business. I think it would be.

0:28:41 Tom: Yeah.

0:28:43 Eli: The problem is, right, pretty rare exception. The reasons to bring a baby on an airplane are pretty important to someone's life, right? Sometimes it's medicine, sometimes it's seeing a relative who might not be a for a while, sometimes it's a parent's obligation to go to a place you can only fly to and they are stuck with that baby, and that's why they're bringing a baby on an airplane. And so the notion that we would limit those options for me strikes me as some real sci-fi bad guy mess, right?

Like, I know that there are other flight options, but by definition there's only so many airplanes that can take off for Orlando in a given day, and if just one of them is kid-free and someone, like, needs to go to Orlando for medical reasons and that's the best way for them to go there, I would way rather live in a world where occasionally a baby starts screaming on an airplane than a world where someone doesn't get access to the medical care slash visitation to a person who's about to not be with us anymore. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's the metric I'm doing in my head.

0:28:52 Thomas: Yeah.

0:30:00 Tom: I feel like even if it's just because they wanted to, I think it's insanely fucked up, like, to have kid-free airlines. It's do feel like kids are this, um, we don't think of them very often socially as fully human. We sort of think of dem as this class of differently human people, and we're just like, well, we can, we can discriminate against them, like, in kind of a lot of really important ways like

0:30:02 Eli: Yeah.

0:30:21 Thomas: I don't know, man. Have you heard Remy? Uh, my change your tune.

0:30:23 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Like

0:30:24 Eli: It's would be like having old-people-free airplanes, which would be equally awesome

0:30:28 Thomas: Awesome.

0:30:28 Tom: It Black people-free airplanes, so the whites could be more comfortable, right? What's the difference fucking weird?

0:30:30 Eli: Yeah.

0:30:34 Thomas: Uh, Remy, uh, decibels, decibels Is the difference. No, I, think I, it just doesn't make any sense from airlines are already so fucked all the time anyway, they're always like barely getting along. Limiting in any way their customer base for any flight is not going to work, and also I just think that, like, nowadays there's the fucking noise-canceling headphones, man. They, they're not going fix it if a baby's like right next to you screaming, but, like, I don't know, they come pretty close. Like, put some music on in your fucking in headphones. No, it's, it you're fine. Hmm.

0:30:37 Eli: Oh.

0:31:04 Eli: I tell you guys, I have good airplane kid, right? So So there is no greater sexual pleasure in my life than when me and Max sit down on an airplane and I get the look, right? It's always from an old lady, right, and she's always like humble, grumble, mumble, mumble and then he's fucking and then at the end she always gets over and he was so amazing. I'm like, he was, he has autism, thank you, it's actually fantastic. Yeah, he fucking rules, you're welcome. He's better than your husband who kept reading Fox News out loud under his breath. Thank you.

0:31:14 Thomas: Really?

0:31:40 Thomas: No.

0:31:40 Eli: Where are my old people free airplanes when you want them? So gentlemen, this actually reminds me of a recent story. So I'm glad you brought this up when we were discussing the episode. Tom was like, hey, can we talk about kid -free airplanes? And I was like oh, because I have a story. So I was recently in Las Vegas. I'm about to be in Las Vega again because I did bad things in a past life. But I was in Las Vegas for a friend's bachelorette party.

And we had a good time, but I flew there and I flew back and there was a mom and two very young kids on my plane and was going through what I think everyone pictures when they want a kid-free airplane. She had a kid about Max's age who had a screen that wasn't working, like a tablet that wasn't working, and so just every so often was having a temper tantrum about that. She also had an incredibly young child in a, like, car seat on her right side that would occasionally just start screaming because it's that age of baby.

And she was sort of juggling the things. And I had so much empathy for her. Like, and again, saying this as completely the douchebag who would have been like, Tom, here's the thing about kid -free airplanes. I was an anti-breastfeeding in public guy. That's how bad my takes were. Absolutely.

0:32:53 Eli: I had this bit.

0:32:53 Thomas: What is wrong with you? There's no good argument for that.

0:32:57 Eli: Of course not. Of course not. Because I was empathy -less and full of garbage thoughts.

0:33:03 Thomas: Could have even taken in the pervert tact and just been like, yeah, I like boobs being out. Just do.

0:33:07 Eli: Was the bit. The bit was like, so can I get your tits out whenever I feel like it? Anyways,

0:33:08 Thomas: Oh, OK. Oh no, that's not. No, that's not. That's not what I was saying.

0:33:12 Tom: That's a terrible, terrible

0:33:14 Eli: An I awesome guy with awesome takes, everybody.

0:33:14 Thomas: Yeah. That's real bad.

0:33:14 Tom: Take. Don't. Jesus Christ.

0:33:19 Eli: Just say it's I know when I started recording me, it wasn't the best time, but it was still better when I could have started being recorded. Oh, you live, you learn. Anyway, my point is, like, I had nothing but empathy for this woman, right? At one point, like, one of the kids, like, was literally screaming about the tablet. I recognized what was wrong because they, she was trying to get him on the Wi-Fi. She kept clicking him on, but then she didn't realize you had to do the thing where you, like, access it on the screen, and I was like, "Hey, I fly all the time. Can I help?" And, like, I got her kid on the iPad for nothing. But, but here's the horrifying twist to the story. You guys ready for the horrifying twist at the end of the story worse Worse, Thomas. It's so much worse. We're getting off the plane, and from a couple of rows back, this guy stands up and starts to walk for them and says, "So how was the flight?" And I realize her husband has been like three rows behind her doing no child care the

0:33:54 Thomas: She kidnapped the kid. It wasn't her kid. Worse. Oh

0:33:54 Tom: Oh, God. Yeah.

0:34:10 Thomas: No. Oh God. Oh wow.

0:34:18 Eli: Entire time. The bullshit was coming from inside the house. I gasped. I audibly gasped with the realization. Oh,

0:34:11 Tom: Wait, what? No. No what oh my god right

0:34:25 Thomas: Yikes yeah yeah I did you call it out? I feel like you have that level of no chill maybe yeah

0:34:33 Eli: I would have. I absolutely, and it was happening too fast. I was just like, oh, this guy, because at first I was worried, literally, this is what the thoughts were in my head. He came forward, he was like, "How was the flight?" She was like, "Awful. He kept screaming, she couldn't get on the iPad," and he was like, "Oh yeah," and I was like, "Oh my." First thought was, oh, this is another passenger here to, like, hassle this mom about the noise the kids were making and So I was, was like, "Hey, don't be a jerk," and then he was cool about it, and then he, like, grabbed her bag and started to walk, and I was like, "Oh my god, oh god, no, no." I was having an old boy moment, just vomiting up all the octopus.

0:34:37 Thomas: Yeah yeah you're gonna defend her sir yeah that's what happened when the dad hit his kid around you can't react in time, it's like, wow, and then

0:35:08 Eli: Mm -hmm yeah I just

0:35:11 Tom: Holy shit

0:35:12 Thomas: Yeah

0:35:12 Eli: I just turned to him and I'm like, "Hey man, you're not allowed to be a bad dad in here." I don't know if you're actually not allowed to, not allowed to do that here. You're supposed to sit up here with the, the kids. Yeah.

0:35:13 Thomas: Yeah usually you're not allowed how to do that here. God, that's

0:35:19 Tom: Jesus jesus Christ, three rows back he's here, he hears a screaming baby and he doesn't even know it's his

0:35:22 Thomas: Awful.

0:35:25 Eli: The whole time wailing she's walking up and down the aisles with him. Yep.

0:35:26 Thomas: And it's not a tiny infant. Yeah.

0:35:30 Tom: Dude you know what that means that means he's the one that had the noise-canceling headsets on, so, so he didn't have to hear his own kid because otherwise, Oh my God. Oh yeah. It sounds hard.

0:35:32 Eli: Yep. Just eating a fucking tapas box while his wife is watching fucking Minions four while his life is in hell.

0:35:45 Tom: Oh my god.

0:35:48 Thomas: That is nuts. I mean, even the best argument is if it's just a total breastfeeding infant, like honestly, usually they got to stay with mom. If it's like, cause know, they'll scream and the way to sue them is pop out the boob. And that is usually still, you're going to get some time with it. I mean, unless it's like a 45 minute flight, like you're gonna get some Timeware as a dad, you can, but if you're talking a walking child, that unacceptable, unacceptable.

0:35:49 Eli: Oh, there's

0:35:58 Tom: Yes. Yeah.

0:36:13 Tom: Jesus Christ.

0:36:10 Eli: A six -hour flight it's a five -hour ride flight a walking Speaking, a child who I had several conversations with Yeah, I did

0:36:19 Thomas: Wow. That child is like, wow, I have a dad now. He's that guy that was magic

0:36:23 Tom: Yeah. Right. I've never had a man talk to me before.

0:36:26 Eli: Did so many more interactions with this child, I did multiple magic tricks for this child.

0:36:30 Thomas: Tricks. Yeah, you did baby.

0:36:31 Eli: Multiple multiple

0:36:32 Tom: God damn.

0:36:32 Thomas: Well, you're now a father or you're again, a father. Sorry. Here's double father.

0:36:34 Tom: See, and if we had, if we, if we were to talk to him, if we could have had airlines that kids weren't allowed in, the dad could have flown that airline and had a much nicer experience.

0:36:36 Thomas: Yeah.

0:36:39 Eli: That dad could have flown that airline and the mom could have flown by herself. Yeah, it would have been great. Finally.

0:36:44 Thomas: Or just put him with the kid and let her do it and just see how he does for that time. That would be, that'd be interesting. I

0:36:44 Eli: Yeah. Yeah.

0:36:50 Tom: Funny to pose, post that question online because you get like really aggressive, vociferous people being like, "No, there should be kid-free airlines," and it's like, "Okay, what about kid-free buses? Kid, what are their spaces? Kid-free restaurants?" And they're like, "Yes, kid-free restaurants." Kid-free buses kid

0:37:06 Thomas: Can't think of anything I care about, let, would you guys be really offended if they had kid-free airplay? I wouldn't give a shit either way. I don't know. Yeah.

0:37:13 Tom: I think it would be a terrible idea. Yeah, I don't, I don't think we should be able to discriminate against people based on their age. Like, like something we should just not decide to do.

0:37:13 Eli: Okay.

0:37:21 Thomas: The rule is, uh, no screamy things allowed there. It's not about age, it's about decibels. If they scream are they screaming

0:37:28 Tom: Yeah. Or people with certain people

0:37:26 Eli: So you are eliminating old people, then yeah. Have You ever met an old person? Oh

0:37:30 Tom: With disabilities or

0:37:30 Thomas: Yeah. People who are gonna fucking scream at a, a flight attendant. Yeah, sure. Rules are rules. Man, get off the plane. Oh

0:37:35 Tom: But yeah, no, we all have to recognize like, this you is a stage of human development. We all just have to deal with it. A silent plane.

0:37:41 Eli: Okay. A plane. You know, like, the quiet car in a train. You guys ever go to one of those? Doesn't

0:37:46 Thomas: Yes, yes. No. Sounds allowed.

0:37:49 Tom: Now it might be a silent plane. Sounds good. Like a silent how about a no-smells plane, though? Can we get a plane Where? Nobody's allowed to, you can't wear cologne, you

0:37:49 Thomas: Oh Oh hundred percent

0:37:52 Eli: That sound great Oh great Tom. Do you want to apologize now or just want to. You want, wait until the next episode?

0:38:00 Thomas: Yes.

0:38:01 Tom: Cannot wear cologne, you cannot wear fucking perfume, you cannot get out, like, your fucking lavender wipes and, like, scrub the seat down

0:38:03 Eli: Okay.

0:38:06 Thomas: Yes. Tom. Why are we the same person? It's so bad. I can't take it. Oh

0:38:09 Tom: Yeah it that are like sensitive and have migraine problems, like, basically get onto, like a migraine bus. That is what a an airplane is. It's just a migrain bus, and it's the fucking worse. I just don't do that it's an easy thing to not do

0:38:13 Thomas: Oh Yeah. It's The worst. It's The worst. Yep.

0:38:24 Eli: Witnessed missed this interaction once and I think about it like three times a day. Well, it was a three row and I'm in an exit row, right, and I lie. They're like, "Can you lift 100 pounds?" And I was like, "Absolutely, I can't." Um, on the end, and then there's a guy and a lady sitting next to him, and she starts to spray body spray on herself, like the really, like, the Axe for ladies, and he

0:38:25 Thomas: Yeah.

0:38:25 Tom: No.

0:38:35 Thomas: You can. Oh No. You would hear me go, "No, you can't."

0:38:46 Tom: No. She should be thrown off the fucking airplane once it reaches the sky.

0:38:50 Eli: Uh and goes, "I'm, I'm so sorry, like, I don't want to be this guy, actually pretty severe allergies.

0:38:56 Thomas: Do that here Yeah.

0:38:57 Eli: Do you mind not doing that?" And she says, "I was actually trying to get your smell out of my nose," and then the three of us sat, I, I, you know how Tom thinks people can't tell when he's angry. This guy was like, "I'm hiding it super good." I, he was just rippling with rage. At one point during the flight, I wanted to turn to him and be like, "Hey man, I know, know you're picturing murdering the lady next to us, and I'm fully in support of that, but it's your, at heat, the heat you are giving off from your rage fire is boiling my tapas box. I'm trying to enjoy these little olives in a bag, and they came out all hot because of your anger." You

0:38:58 Thomas: Oh Wow. Wow. Wow.

0:39:02 Tom: Oh, my God.

0:39:34 Tom: We got, we were flying somewhere years ago and, like, the lady right behind Hayley got out these, like, disinfecting lavender-scented wipes and, like, wiped down her tray table and her, her seat, just, like, basically, is such a strong scent, it is such an intensely strong scent. It was absolutely horrid and Haley got into it with her, of course, because it was like, well, this, I'm sitting there like, this now going to happen. Now we're going to maybe get off kicked this flight.

0:39:50 Thomas: Yeah.

0:40:02 Thomas: It is so hard because you can't communicate that to people who don't get it. And going to start lying and saying I have a migraine issue. I don't know what my issue is. It just is hell. And it's funny because it seems to be, well, it seems to be like genetic. Like me and my brother have the same weird, there's like a weird smell to certain body sprays that somehow only we're bothered by. I it's just hell. Like it just, it's absolutely hell, but you can't explain like to the people who don't get it. It's There's impossible to explain. You're just like, just don't just don' t do it.

0:40:03 Tom: Yeah. Yeah right. That's fucking rude.

0:40:34 Tom: Like one of those things, like, dude, I'm right there, like, smells, no, don't bother me at all, but like, all I have to do is be like, "Oh, so smells bother you? Okay, that makes sense." Well,

0:40:42 Thomas: Well, Well, further smells might bother the average plane traveler. That's what that we need.

0:40:42 Eli: Well, not passionate about this smell yeah

0:40:48 Tom: Could just recognize, though, like, is what I'm saying, that, like, and I'm not saying you, but like, it just makes me crazy, and be like, "Why? That doesn't bother me," and it's like, "Yeah, but I bothers them, and they said it, so now you know it." You're not them. Them, like, there, I assume that other people have different sensory fucking experiences than me. I've never understood, it's like, can you not at all put yourself in someone else's shoes?

0:40:48 Thomas: Yeah.

0:41:09 Tom: Is that literally just got

0:41:04 Eli: No

0:41:04 Thomas: So anyway, this is our way of saying, Eli, you got to shower more than once a week. You have to. I'm sorry, man.

0:41:15 Tom: You're gonna get on the airplane, you got to be showered.

0:41:15 Thomas: Oh,

0:41:17 Eli: You You gotta stick your face in my pit and get a migraine, and then I'll do it.

0:41:20 Thomas: Fuck.

0:41:21 Eli: You've done that. You've ridden in my car. It's essentially the same thing.

0:41:24 Tom: That's Yeah, what's the difference?

0:41:25 Eli: All right, gentlemen, before we go: why did Pavlov have such great hair? Because he conditioned it. I

0:41:40 Thomas: Oh

0:41:41 Tom: That's good, actually. I

0:41:46 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:42:26 Thomas: Real, you can't mute that thing, like you gotta be able to mute the, it's during, when you're talking, so you gotta repeat the

0:42:28 Tom: I'm trying. I do

0:42:27 Eli: I thought you were talking about kids that was very funny.

0:42:32 Thomas: Yeah Mute that fucking kid. No

0:42:33 Eli: Uh

0:42:34 Tom: Had a point. I was going to try to expand on the topic.

0:42:36 Eli: Then I started talking about fucking my dad friends, and you got weird why do you get weird? It's because you long for it, Tom. You're slowly coming over. Look at your thumb right now. You see that ring that just appeared there?

0:42:37 Tom: Yeah, and I got all fucking distracted.

0:42:43 Thomas: Yeah.

0:42:47 Eli: We're getting slowly but surely pulled into the poly cult.

0:42:47 Tom: Jesus Christ, no. Fuck me.

0:42:52 Eli: I'm so excited for 100 episodes from now. So Hurley's metamor is moving in. I'm really excited.

0:42:52 Tom: Don't fuck me, actually. No. Oh, my

0:42:59 Eli: Josh is such a great guy.

0:42:59 Tom: God.