DOD146: Would You Kill 1 Trolley Problem To Save 2 Trolley Problems

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad. That's my thing. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can. Complete and utter dependence. I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired.

0:00:22 Clip: Telling is the only part of being a father that I enjoy.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that doesn't flinch at the trolley switch. I'm Tom Carey. I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:39 Thomas: I don't flinch when I vote for Democrats here. Why would you flinch? It's easy. Just do it.

0:00:43 Eli: Just using my other hand to force it down. I'm very excited for this vote. Here we go.

0:00:53 Tom: I promise that intro makes sense based on the hypothetical Eli will bring to us. I promise. I promise it makes sense

0:00:58 Eli: So, yes, gentlemen, I bring you a hypothetical today coming to us from Reddit. This caused quite the stir in the uh I'm

0:01:09 Thomas: We're just getting right into it. How are you guys doing? How's your day? Straight to business now, huh? Huh?

0:01:11 Tom: Began

0:01:14 Eli: How are you since 30 seconds ago when we reset our auto interfaces to do a second episode you good nice

0:01:17 Tom: The next episode

0:01:22 Thomas: I'm okay. Yeah, no, it's all right. It's going fine. Yeah. Pretty good.

0:01:25 Eli: Good good going good how's the new cleaning lady working out she's working out well is this great yeah all

0:01:29 Thomas: That's fantastic. A hundred percent. Great. We you guys also want Heath to just like, I want a button that calls Heath in to to reveal what the date and time is.

0:01:38 Eli: July 19th it's july 18th yeah he

0:01:41 Thomas: Everyone needs that app, like a soundboard that's just he'd be like it's now it's a get ahead oh well

0:01:46 Eli: Ai is there for you it's there for you somewhere yes that's

0:01:48 Tom: There it's true you can everybody can have their own heath soon there won't be a need for any people

0:01:54 Thomas: Now that we're all introduced and I

0:01:57 Eli: But gentlemen gentlemen you know the only thing worse than the ever presence of us pre -recording this show why it's the auto ads auto ads interrupting your podcast enjoyment experience like a heath get ahead ai which was specially programmed and stolen from the things he mumbles from his night terrors in his sleep uh you can prevent all all that by covering your windows and doors so I can't sneak into them and record you or by giving us as little as a dollar over at patreon.com forward slash dear old dads you'll get a commercial free version of every show with a little parenting episode you get to find out the nice thing I did while max and anna were away last week if you listen to last week's episode uh and and sometimes not always but sometimes tom shows up for that part of the show it's pretty pretty exciting.

0:02:46 Tom: Just you know I'm at 99 .5 or some bullshit it's fine somewhere damn it

0:02:51 Eli: Haven't earned your rest. Check it out. Patreon.com forward slash dear old dads. Gavel in to. Right. So, gentlemen, this query has come across to us, and I think it brings up a really interesting question, a question about trust and a question of trust. And I think about sort of where we believe our partners and where lines are. This question this comes up and I will read it directly from Reddit. Here it is. Is a gendered question, but we are all guys on here, but feel free to answer this at home if you're not a person who identifies as a guy. And so it goes. Guys, you're driving with your wife and you stop at a red light. A man begins to cross in front of your car when your wife says, oh my God, that's him. Hit the gas. What do you do? But,

0:03:00 Tom: Punch the gas a hundred percent right

0:03:47 Thomas: To clarify maybe I'm an idiot but I didn't understand this and then you said it's to run over the guy I was like I thought you just meant just leave and I waslike well everybody should do that like punch punch it let's go and that's not a very interesting question and And I feel dumb because, yeah, that wouldn't be a very interesting question.

0:04:05 Tom: Thomas Smith starts interrogating Lydia about what she means by hitting the gas The guy wanders off, he's three blocks away He still has some

0:04:11 Thomas: I hit the gas, but I'm in reverse. Like, all right. Smash into the car behind me.

0:04:17 Eli: He's, yeah. He, he,

0:04:14 Tom: More questions about It's technically not gas in a Tesla It's an accelerator, it provides electric power from the batteries

0:04:18 Eli: He busy showing her how mad he is about the cup holders so he doesn't hear. Can't

0:04:27 Tom: I mean I would hit the gas but they buried the button behind a series of menus and I can't find it

0:04:30 Eli: Can't hear you. There's a straw in the my emotions Lydia but uh uh hit the gas Tom obviously I'm

0:04:42 Tom: Did punch my foot through the floor my foot goes through the floor yeah no hesitation

0:04:49 Eli: I meant like oh my god that's him I'm already through the floor and then like if it turns out to be a long lost cousin I'm composing the apology in my head

0:04:52 Tom: Maybe she did mean what thomas thought she's like oh my god you murdered him you should have clarified oh

0:05:03 Thomas: Because I wanted to go meet him. Yeah.

0:05:05 Eli: My God is for emergency oh my got is for a rapid action

0:05:14 Thomas: My. OK, hold on. This is on topic, I promise, because many, many men I know have had this problem. Doesn't happen anymore. Fortunately, I don't really know why, but kind you ever have the problem where you're driving and your significant other goes oh my god and you are like who did I just kill what did I just do my heart is pounding out of my chest I did I kill a kid is it is it a deer are we dying are we going off a cliff that's the shoe place I like yes

0:05:43 Eli: A hundred percent. Emergency.

0:05:44 Tom: My god thank god no

0:05:48 Eli: For it in our household, which is called emergency noises. And we have had to have several conversations about using emergency noises in non -emergency situations.

0:05:49 Tom: You have so many helioposnics your life is so weird

0:06:00 Thomas: Thank you thank you we

0:06:01 Tom: You dude are do you have an hr department that runs your life helioplastic what is We four -stage acronym -based check -in system.

0:06:06 Eli: Man.

0:06:07 Thomas: Need one might might need one. Wait, so you're telling me, Tom, Tomifer, this is not a problem you have ever Tom.

0:06:19 Tom: But I'll tell you why. I'll show you why it's because Haley doesn't notice anything that is not. She's in her own world all the time.

0:06:27 Eli: Haley's been in a coma for the last six years

0:06:29 Tom: If if you know Haley, the outside world is just like, if she's not specifically looking for something, the inside world is a series of blurred images and sounds that she is uninterested in her world with her adhd it's so powerful and intense and

0:06:43 Thomas: Well, I thought that would make it worse because like when she notices something, it's like, ah, you know, like I actually thought it would go the other way. That's very interesting. Okay.

0:06:51 Tom: Like the outside world for her isn't it's just not and so it it hasn't been there it's never been there we'll drive around and I'll be like did you see that car she'd be like what no and it could be like we will have just driven past like beautiful shiny like classic car that stands out like a sore her thumb right

0:07:08 Thomas: It's the guy's corpse you just ran over.

0:07:11 Eli: Fuck

0:07:11 Tom: And it she absolutely did not nine times out of ten did not see it although and I've relayed this story I think on cog disc but I love this story and relaying it again because everyone in the world needs to hear it the other day hayley and I were standing outside a cvs and she had never seen a cyber truck before which was a great world that she gets to live in and I I envy she had ever seen a cybertruck before and one of them was stopped right right in front of us like like, right at a stoplight, and she looks over, she goes, what the hell is that geometry car over there, and I was like, god, I fucking love you right now, like, uh,

0:07:41 Eli: Yeah have you seen the driver of a cyber truck oh

0:07:48 Thomas: I have never that's so funny I've seen like four of them and you can never see the drive they're all I don't know if they do this on purpose but I only ever see them parked or driving in a way that I can't see them which is probably good yeah

0:07:50 Eli: You haven't seen a cyber truck yes

0:07:59 Tom: Well, and they're tinted fucking black, like

0:08:01 Eli: They're tinted black is them yeah

0:08:01 Thomas: Because I would want to to know who to hate. You know, like I want to know who to hit.

0:08:03 Tom: Black, yeah,

0:08:05 Eli: I got to see someone get out of a cyber trunk and it was exactly what I was picturing it chuckled I did like a full laugh to myself because I was like I bet this is gonna be a white guy with Ray -Bans on the back of his head and he was like hello everybody it's me who you were picturing if I had said it out loud if people would have been like good magic trick Eli how did you do that yes

0:08:18 Thomas: My God. Wow. You conjured him. Feel like it's like the box in a Pulp Fiction where I shouldn't, you know, it's just the, the cyber truck should open and then there's just a light and you can't see, cause you got to leave it to your imagination. Who would be that big of an asshole? You know what I mean? Like there's some magic to it. Like, I don't want to see, I don't know. That's like revealing the trick. I don't wanna know.

0:08:44 Tom: It's also somebody who can afford a hundred and thirty thousand dollar car

0:08:46 Thomas: Exactly. That such a level of asshole that is such a level of asshole.

0:08:47 Eli: And chooses that you but it's such a specific brand of asshole too right because you can you can Get I don't know I was I was trying to go for a poll but I think Ferrari Ferrari is the word in my mind, but I have no idea how many dollars a Ferrari is.

0:09:04 Thomas: You could buy a normal car and then invest a hundred thousand dollars, I think is what you're trying to say.

0:09:08 Tom: That's exactly what you do

0:09:08 Eli: You can buy big money car that car people care about for that money, but you're like, no, no, I want the one that aligns me with the third worst person on Twitter who hasn't murdered anybody and that explodes sometimes. Do they have one that just blows up in a big fireball? I want that one where

0:09:25 Tom: Well because hayley hadn't seen anything about the cyber truck before I had the pleasure of showing her the video of when they did the unveil and he throws the ball through the window twice twice oh

0:09:37 Thomas: It's so good. It's so good.

0:09:35 Eli: He throws the rock. It's the best. I friends my brothers my countrymen I got to watch the hogan rip his shirt off at the rnc and declare that donald trump was going to make america great again and it was still not as funny as when they threw a rock and shattered the window of the cyber truck during

0:09:57 Thomas: So good, it is

0:09:59 Tom: The greatest thing that's ever happened

0:09:59 Thomas: So good!

0:10:00 Eli: Their own press conference it's

0:10:03 Thomas: The thing about Elon Musk is I never get tired of having been right about Elon musk. I'll never get, we could talk about how big of an asshole he is forever and I'll never get tired of that feeling of like yeah I knew all you fucking idiot fucking loser men on on reddit and twitter worshiping this guy you're idiots we knew you were idiots you didn't know you were idiots and actually almost all of them do now like Musk is such a fucking moron that like even his most dedicated fans are like oh boy um how do we defend that I don't know

0:10:35 Eli: Yeah, no, it's it's interesting because we were and Tom, I'm excluding you from this sentence big time. We were the last generation to fall for the like person on Twitter who is tweeting at me is a human being who actually holds these opinions thing. And so as we are proven just tremendously right about everything we said in 2014 and 2015 moving forward, it this weird nostalgia, right? Right. Because like you try and tell young people like people used to tweet at me and I would argue with them. And they're like, why? That's a robot trying to sell you Bitcoin. You're like. Yeah, but I didn't think that I thought it was thought it Was a human being who I could reach with my words. There aren't any of those on the Internet. I know. But I thought they were

0:11:17 Thomas: There. No, they're used. They're actually used to be on Twitter now. It's it is a have you looked now?

0:11:22 Eli: Thomas, it was you and me. It was just you. It Was just you and Me retweeting each other and fucking that

0:11:24 Tom: It was it was

0:11:24 Thomas: Have you looked at the replies? Then how did we get them on our show and talk to them?

0:11:31 Eli: I don't believe that happened.

0:11:32 Thomas: It did happen.

0:11:34 Eli: Someone sent that to me the other day and I listened to it. I just laughed for so long. I forgot that I spent most of that podcast whispering, don't put this on the internet. Oh, that's a puzzle deep cut, folks.

0:11:45 Thomas: Oh God, that was so good. So good.

0:11:47 Tom: All right so we got somebody standing in front of us we're in the car you hit the gas thomas do you do you run them over well

0:11:54 Thomas: Think I might be the only one with an answer that's, you know, because you guys will murder anyone your wife tells you to murder, I feel like, like pretty,

0:12:02 Eli: It's billion percent.

0:12:03 Tom: Let me tell you why like let me let me explain why, because it's actually probably not what you think. Like, a fact that I know to be true about Haley. Like she doesn't like it. She is upstairs and I'm down here in my office, she me when we are in the same house. Like wants me to be always by her if possible. Like She doesn't get weird about it, but like Like that is her strong preference in her life. Like, if she is going to ask me to do something that jeopardizes my liberty, I have to assume that like she has weighed that risk of like, you know, my favorite person in the world might be taken away from me at any moment, but yeah, a hundred percent still worth it. She's clearly got a time machine and knows like, this is Hitler. You know, this has like the second hand. There's, there is something that is that extreme in order for her to be like, yeah, it's time to risk your liberty, Curry. Hurry I'd be like all right well fucking like this stakes are high I gotta find out why like my curiosity is there so 100 I

0:12:48 Eli: New Hitler.

0:13:01 Tom: Gotta do it

0:13:01 Eli: Oh yeah, on the drive, when you're hosing the car off later, you're like, okay, I gotta know.

0:13:04 Tom: There's a good story here right

0:13:06 Eli: I gotta hear this. Man, hair really just clings to the front, doesn't it? I mean, you'd think. It's like that when they get them in your mouth and you're like...

0:13:09 Thomas: Was there a genocide I didn't hear about or something? Yeah.

0:13:19 Eli: Gotta get a more powerful hose.

0:13:20 Tom: Be fair I also drive a hybrid so like I would gently bump him you know so like the stakes hold on

0:13:24 Eli: Yeah, it's true. He pushes back and you'RE like, I did everything I could. He didn't...

0:13:28 Tom: I gotta put in sport mode it goes six percent faster when I press this red button

0:13:30 Eli: I count on him taking a horse stance, darling. So, unfortunately, I think we've lost this one. He tipped us. He tipped us. Yeah, now, obviously, my wife's I'm like I could be driving away and she'd be like yeah there were two lines that formed into one line and that guy stepped in front of me even though I was there first and I'd be like oh no but similarly my standards for murder are much lower so I think it works for the like hayley hayley would only do that because she knew being away from her love was worth it my wife would be like ah nice long weekend without the boss but I I'm okay with it I'm not going to Yeah, sure. Two line to one line rule, man. You're supposed to fucking zipper.

0:13:38 Thomas: It's probably me crossing this yeah oh you got yeah so for different reasons

0:14:11 Tom: I think the only thing I don't like about that question is I'm like yeah yeah, but I don't think I'd get away with it. Like, it's a more interesting question if it's like, murder that guy later, right? Then I could plan it out and maybe get away With it. I think if you run somebody over the car, you have to assume you're going to jail, right.

0:14:22 Thomas: If look look tom I'm with you yet again we have so much in common if in I'm not a murder if and I were ever going to commit a murder I would at least like the satisfaction of trying to plan one that I get away with you're there you're doing it yes be fun it's

0:14:39 Tom: Why are we aligned right now? Yes, like, isn't it something like in the back of your head, you've been like, I bet I could be the one that got away with that.

0:14:46 Thomas: Like a Sudoku I just want to do it's a puzzle I want to try how do I get away with it it would be fun and now the murder part I don't like that part that wouldn't be fun but they're trying to get away with it part that sounds fun yeah

0:14:57 Tom: That's the check. Like, if I have to commit a murder, I want to have the prize, which is being able to like be a murder getaway or you know

0:15:05 Eli: Thomas. Look, I've never seen you lie. So I believe you are physically incapable of it. I cannot. Maybe you're amazing at it. Maybe you'RE amazing at IT. But I feel like the cops would be like, uh, Mr. Smith, have you heard of Chris Robinson? You'd be like. Oh, yeah. I murdered that guy. That's the guy I murdered.

0:15:23 Tom: Eli eli here's here's where you're wrong here's where youre wrong eli would intend to get to that sentence but it would not just answer well you gotta know first about chris robinson and then the interrogation 39 and a half hours later three cops will have gone through their shift their hands are cramped from trying to write notes it's it

0:15:38 Thomas: You should have seen his cup holder it was so dirty your officer it was such it's a dirty cut. There's food in it. And then they'd be like, you're free to go.

0:15:44 Tom: Would they would just let him go they'd be like all right we don't it we got to go home to our families

0:15:49 Thomas: No, here's that joke. Those are funny jokes, funny bits, funny goofs, but you got to remember one thing. You don't remember how competitive I am and I want to get away with this murder. I will do anything.

0:15:58 Eli: Woo. Woo, we'd have to somehow convince Heath

0:16:02 Thomas: Here's yes. Heath and I both have to see who gets away with a murder better. And here's what I would do. A, I would have to never be a suspect. Like I don't, yeah, I'm not. B, the minute there is an interrogation, I don't fucking know to lawyer up. I'm not talking to anybody. I'll just be like, lawyer, lawyer. And then I'm just not lying. There. I I don'T have to tell them the truth.

0:16:02 Eli: To murder someone at the same time.

0:16:07 Tom: It's a murder off

0:16:25 Thomas: I bypassed it.

0:16:24 Eli: That's true, that's true. Weird, I don'T picture you planning a murder. Picture you doing a murder super easy, but like King Kong, like you tear a man in half with your bare hands and you're like, I'M SO SORRY!

0:16:31 Thomas: Doesn't have time. Yeah.

0:16:32 Tom: You see me as like impulsive in that way really

0:16:39 Thomas: Ooh. That just gave me a really good idea for my murder. You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to arrange

0:16:45 Tom: I'm so sorry yeah

0:16:47 Eli: Push Chris Robinson while he's serving a smoothie to Tom. And then let nature take its course.

0:16:54 Thomas: Going to arrange for Chris Robinson whoever our imaginary victim is for some reason to be behind a door that Tom needs to get through oops no one could have seen it coming yep yep yep perfect crime

0:17:02 Tom: I can see myself accidentally killing somebody that is true yeah yeah I'm not a graceful man.

0:17:07 Eli: Here's how you do it. Here's what you do: you wait until Tom's asleep. The .4 hours a night that he sleeps and you wake him, you have Chris Robinson tied to a chair. You wake him. He's so exhausted and he has so little self -awareness that you're like, Hey Tom, you're a famous chiropractor. His neck is really bugging him. And then Tom just rips his head off. He doesn't know.

0:17:29 Eli: He's like, like oh yeah of course the chiropractor crack and then he's like no bulgarity is not a garbu you just head out into the night like ripley's game here's

0:17:42 Thomas: And then I I slowly lose my limp as I walk away from Tom's house. It was me all along.

0:17:49 Tom: Do you really think that I'm impulsive like that?

0:17:51 Eli: What I think I think that any situation let

0:17:55 Tom: You saw me with Sargon. I think I was very calm and collected.

0:17:57 Eli: Saw you did did amazing with

0:17:58 Tom: Yeah. I'm not impulsive at all in that way.

0:17:58 Eli: Sargon here's but let's be honest right

0:18:01 Thomas: But you were asleep. You were half asleep in this scenario, Tom. That's fair.

0:18:04 Tom: I'm always half asleep, Thomas.

0:18:06 Thomas: Okay, you were three quarters asleep.

0:18:06 Eli: I rewrite that story as like a guy calling hayley a name in the moment right but later he did it on youtube where you couldn't find his house and his family I think if he had called hayley name in a moment right now they'd be like former youtuber sargon of a cod who famously got luggage tested in a lobby I think when it comes to Haley, which is what this hypothetical is about, you're not going to be like, well, now the planning begins. You're going to be like, I ate him.

0:18:24 Thomas: Used to have a face. Yeah.

0:18:39 Eli: He was a num -num.

0:18:41 Tom: I think you're not too too far I think I am fairly protective there of of my family I think think that would apply to any any of the kids too like I think if somebody was like stop doing that he's gonna listen to the show I mean I love you stop it that is this man does not represent me

0:18:49 Eli: Except for Eamon. I do. I'm a third of the company. A third of a company.

0:18:58 Thomas: Now, is as far as this scenario goes with me, the aren't crimes against humanity bad enough for Lydia to ever say that so be it would be hard to even like so I'm going with a hypothetical first off I'd be my I'd be so curious I don't think I could even move I'd like what explain everything about this right now because Lydia and

0:19:19 Eli: You'd be driving 20 minutes later and Lydia would be like that's the guy that killed my whole family back there. I don't know if you saw him at the crosswalk.

0:19:24 Thomas: I'd Like oh and she'd be like yeah I think he's uh I think think he's doing better these days he actually he and then he he was married and then yeah

0:19:31 Eli: She still follows him on instagram I saw his story the other day he got a promotion so that's good for him

0:19:40 Thomas: God yes that's, that's closer to the truth than the scenario we're doing um yeah I just don't know what that would even be like there's nothing she's we were halfway through the shit last year and she was like I don't care for andrew not really but it was like it was there there was a moment.

0:19:57 Tom: I am rescinding our standing dinner invitation

0:20:01 Thomas: Yeah, there was not really, but there was a moment where we were like, both of us at some point last year, we're like, don't care what happens to that guy, which for both of Us is like pretty, I'm actually, jokes aside, like I'm, I'M way too soft. I' I m not, eh, I m a softy person. I, and we are too. And like both of US were like boy, if a bolt of lightning, you know, like we we wouldn't care. We, That would be no feelings, which is big. That's big for both of us, I'll tell you.

0:20:16 Tom: A different episode oh

0:20:28 Eli: It's oh man can I say so proud of the Bosnick unity because there's so many people out there who don't know how it would be on site with anna bosnick there's so many people who are like well you know I'm I I did what was right and I I I said a couple of people straight or if you run into my wife at a grocery store oh you'd be praying for an eli you'd be bread for an ally you all you'd beg the you'd police as they drag her off of your corpse oh why couldn't I run into eli instead oh it's fucking on sight it's on fucking sight baby oh

0:20:29 Tom: Me too

0:21:05 Thomas: Her trigger finger, you're saying? She'll just kill for no reason? Is that the...

0:21:08 Eli: We will kill anybody and here's my thing okay here's mi answer for the thing right because Because everyone's like, and this is what the conversation got into and read it. It was like, well, does it really mean, you know, what could someone do that would be worth murder, blah, blah. And I'm like, look, people die all the time. Okay. That guy could have a heart attack in a week. Who fucking cares? There's not like some beautiful sanctity of life. The fact that my wife is like, that guy not so great. I'm not like, all right, 100 % that guy. Not so great, even if he turns out to be great. I'm Like, it happens. People die. It's none of my business. I'm not here to arbitrate over the things I'm here to follow instructions and push the pedal exactly yeah nobody's like that guy was a serial no one's ever called an executioner a serial killer they're just doing their job and I'm just doing mine and

0:21:44 Thomas: You're just the executioner. Yeah.

0:21:56 Tom: That's a phrase from a Jew I never thought I'd hear

0:21:58 Eli: Can we say people who end up saying that phrase always turn out to be right historically historically speaking it always turns out to me right but you know this got me thinking it got me thinkin right this idea of like what we would do for our families it me thinking about the game and now the tv show the last of us so have you gentlemen played this game

0:22:16 Thomas: I didn't play the game. Now, is this the Pedro Pascal... Okay, we watched that show. It was very in some ways, and other ways, not as good, but very good stuff. Liked it. Enjoyed it.

0:22:19 Eli: Pedro pascal thing yeah so there is a conundrum tama do you mind if I spoil this for you spoilers

0:22:30 Tom: I'll never play this game it's totally fine yeah right it's fine

0:22:31 Thomas: He doesn't give a shit. Yeah.

0:22:33 Eli: You spoilers for the the game and the show and it's an interesting question and it presented very interestingly in the game that I have a lot of thought about when it comes to like video game design but that's neither here nor there basically this the daughter that he is taken on she turns out to be

0:22:49 Thomas: Well, we got to set it up a little bit in case people have no idea. So it'S a zombie scenario, right ? Like the world pandemic -y zombie, mushroom zombie. That'S right yeah it's really cool actually it's cool design wait

0:22:57 Tom: Okay all right station

0:22:52 Eli: It's right it's mushroom zombies everyone turns into a mushroom zombie yeah and the world sort of falls apart and this is much later much much later the mushroom zombies they're not like everywhere it's it's Not Like The Walking Dead where uh don't make a loud noise because a billion zombies will just come wandering in right it is more like society is definitely collapsed it has not rebuilt there is some kind of government something going on but it's not very unified and it's all very fascist and so mostly what you have is people just sort of like yeah exactly surviving in clumps and occasionally that clump will get unlucky and you'll either run into the favorite trope of all apocalypse things are the people who just like are like murder like there's

0:23:28 Thomas: That's our government yeah they form the murder society somehow yeah

0:23:43 Eli: A third of us are just gonna be like oh I guess I will just murder huh like now that we don't have no rules no it's crazy it's Crazy by the way great uh refutation to that station 11 if you haven't watched it everybody

0:23:48 Thomas: So dumb oh my god I love I love I read the book watch the show I love it it's a rare

0:23:59 Tom: 11 I don't even know what this is

0:24:00 Thomas: It is a I'll say this I think the show might be better than the book like that's a rarer thing but like it's different they're They're both good and they're different and read them and watch them both. They're so good.

0:24:07 Eli: Is yeah they're both incredible station 11 side note for those who haven't watched it uh is uh super covet right happens uh side side note für episode two is it episode three there's one episode that's like a flashback to super covet that is very very hard to watch especially if you have kids so trigger warning on that but what the show is about what the shows actually about is post super covet there's like like a 10th of humanity left and it follows this troop of actors traveling from like society to society performing Shakespeare to make a living.

0:24:16 Thomas: Pandemic -y death. Yeah. Yeah. It's around the Great Lakes or whatever. It's like a, yeah, Tom. It's about by Tom.

0:24:44 Eli: And really interesting because they don't indulge any of those tropes, right? There's no cannibals. There's not, there's no weird Negan, you know, I'm the murder person of the murder things. It's just people doing their best. People trying to make it in the,

0:25:01 Thomas: There's murder, but because people are hungry and need food and in a way that's not, yeah.

0:25:04 Eli: It is very realistic.

0:25:06 Thomas: There's not a guy with a baseball bat and barbed wire like a fucking stupid piece of shit.

0:25:06 Eli: It is not... Right. And a series of, you know, just evil henchmen.

0:25:12 Tom: So clearly I don'T MAKE IT THROUGH THE apocalypse.

0:25:12 Thomas: So fucking dumb.

0:25:14 Eli: Yeah. What are you talking about? You'd have all the vaccines, Tom. You're the reason the super COVID happens is because you combined AstraZeneca and emergency, and they told you not to. Yeah, so what happens at the end of the first game, and they undo it in the second game, so I'm just talking about the first game right now. And the end of the first season of the show is this daughter that he has come to take care of that has replaced his own daughter may be the cure for the whole thing.

0:25:19 Tom: That's true. Percolating them in there.

0:25:45 Thomas: The whole mushroom disease. Yeah.

0:25:47 Eli: And again, you gotta stretch your imagination here, but they have to kill her to make it? So instead, he kills them then lies to her and tells her, oh no, they were never gonna make it. You know, we'll find someone out there who's working on it. Interesting because I think about that video game a lot. One, because I think it was one of the first video games I ever experienced where I was like, oh, that was as good as a movie, right? Important a piece of fiction to me as a movie might be. But also because having not been a parent and played that game and thinking that Joel makes this incredibly selfish choice

0:25:52 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah

0:26:26 Eli: Right and sort of being convinced of that utilitarian the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few mindset that I think a lot of young people do and now being a parent and knowing that I would make exactly the same like they'd have to be like and Max is going to have to get a shot and I'd be like ah pip pip you're saying his iPad will run out of juice during this procedure uh give me your jaw I'm pulling it free from your skull but like all seriousness, in right knowing I would make that exact same decision the question that it brings up for me that I think is is worthy of discussion in relation to what we're talking about today is not what would we be willing to sacrifice for our families which I think is a very easy everything for all of us but what should we sacrifice our families for, right? I think the question and it's interesting, we don't have a childless person on this podcast, but some, of the conversations that came up around that show and around that video game quite a bit is like, you are so selfish for making that decision. You are a worse person for making the decision. And I think one of the conversations that we don't have that I'd like to have is that like a lot of the times the reason something is bad in our society is because people think, they're not always right, sometimes they're wrong, but people think they are protecting them and their loved ones in doing it, right?

0:26:27 Thomas: I

0:26:46 Tom: Hundred 100%. Yeah. Yeah,

0:27:58 Eli: Like how do you guys navigate that stuff, right, when it comes to the very simple stuff like what your kids should be entitled to in a world where there is a lot of want to things like climate change, right

0:28:09 Tom: As you're describing this, I was thinking in some way it's not dissimilar. I mean, if the stakes aren't exactly one to one analogous, but it's It's not dissimilar to, for example, having a family that really encourages military service, right?

0:28:23 Eli: Yes

0:28:24 Thomas: Gonna bring that up too. Do you?

0:28:25 Tom: Have a family That really encourages Military service, you are saying like, Hey, here is my son or daughter And I would like them to be a part of this greater good And I am willing to sort of lose them, potentially lose their life Potentially because I believe so strongly in the reality of this greater good. And is in tension with so much of so much of what we do, right? Because I absolutely could, right, I could say, okay, we as a family could live on a lot less than we live on. And maybe the better thing for us to do if we were really truly good people would be to live on the minimum amount that we could live and donate all the rest of it and live a minimum level of life because I recognize that I don't have to to have more than what I have to have in order to survive in order for my family so but I don't do that I do not do that. I make choices that benefit my family first and I kind of agree with you eli like I have always felt that like our our sphere of influence and control overlaps in an almost one -to -one way with our moral responsibility so

0:29:37 Tom: My first moral responsibility is not to my community. My first moral responsibility is to my family. My second moral responsibility is to my friends, the people who are in that second ring, my third. As my, as the people, as the sort of like distance grows between me and other people, my moral responsibility also decreases in my view. Like always choose the people that are in my sphere of, of, and sphere of control like before I choose people outside of it and when there's a moral conundrum when there is a resources conundrium and honestly like if you're being true like every resource decision you make is a moral decision right yeah I mean I like if it's one of my kids and it's like yeah we could save the world like the right thing to do from a utilitarian trolley problem perspective is like oh you gotta I gotta pull the switch I gotta run over Finn with the trolley and then I save a bunch of strangers. And that's what I should do. That's the right thing to do. And I'd be like, yeah, but I love Finn more than those strangers.

0:30:36 Tom: I'm the person making that call and I'm going to probably make a call based on how I feel because the decision to have kids wasn't rational. The decision to have kids was always irrational, was always based in feelings, not a set of rational choices. Dude like if, if it's fucking Amon's life or like my literal if

0:30:59 Eli: You should use one of the other kids because we're trying to get them more

0:31:00 Tom: I know I'm using on purpose if it´s Amon´s life or like every single person in the house next door to me fuck the house in the store to me I there's no way, there's no way I could look into my son's eyes and be like yeah man you got to go because you neighbor whose name I can't even recall as I relay, this story matters more to me. He doesn't matter more to me. He should like he should.

0:31:17 Eli: Just his face in your hands have you ever heard of cons categorical imperative

0:31:26 Tom: Right. Like the thing is, like intellectually, I know he should, but that's I don't live a life. And like the whole reason to bring up the resources thing is I don't actually live my life based on intellectual shoulds. All of the rest of my life's decisions are based on what I actually want to do. Right those are decisions of irrational heart those are not choices that are actually morally defensible well

0:31:46 Eli: Now thomas it sounds like you might be coming from a different angle on this

0:31:52 Thomas: I mean, probably not like a ton. I don't want to, you know, but like a little bit, I think for one, I just don't think those scenarios are realistic. So I think that like the way to, and I'm not trying to get out of the thing. I'm trying to think of a more like, I way this might happen to, to kind of evaluate it. And I think the line is going to be, like, yes, there's some amount, if I'm talking about my kids' lives, obviously, Tom, I'm going to value, I agree, like they're going to pay more value than any random person's life, of course. But I think that it's, there's another way to look at, like there is a reason people argue about this for, you know, forever. And it's that there are a lot of different ways to look up morality. I largely do think utilitarianism is like most of the time the right way to look at it in a lot of situations. But there is also rule utilitarian ism, which is that we wouldn't want to live in a world like if you multiplied this out times, everybody. Would you want to living in the world where everybody might have to sacrifice their own kid for like a neighbor's house full of people they don't

0:32:55 Thomas: Know? And the answer is we wouldn'T want to LIVE in that. And so if we all lived under that paradigm, it wouldn't be better. And therefore, it's utilitarian, but it's making sure to look at it from the full picture, not just isolating like this one event. Um, from that perspective, I think that it does shift, but it doesn't shift infinitely if so. And I would say, I Think the key for me would be what, of thing would be so bad that my kids would be unhappy that I did it? You know like if if my kid finds out that like well it could have been them or like a hundred other kids and then I tell them yeah like I killed those kids to save you I I don't know how much they're going to be like awesome dad that's super cool they might you know like I think that's an important component of it is like can you look your kid in the eye after that and that

0:33:48 Tom: After they're dead, it's way harder though, I mean, you can look actually you can them in their eyes as you know probably six weeks or so and

0:33:53 Eli: Just get a jar not if you have pickles. No, and actually Thomas, I think your objection at the beginning there is really important and I and I do want to sort of uh highlight it that sort of like this situation isn't realistic because I think the trap that people fall into is not recognizing that we live in a world of abundance that we do have enough food and clothing and shelter for everybody and like the decisions we make are not those of sacrifice um that the people who are telling you that the decisions of sacrifice must be made are often selling you a narrative um that they are in control of right they want you to die in their war so I actually think it's pretty important that we highlight that because especially when it comes to like real events like climate change like uh problems in the environment like war and pestilence and hunger and uh disparity and stuff like that right like Like, so, you know, a really good example of this is like the problem with wealth disparity is like billionaires not paying their taxes. The problem withwealth disparity is not you, a middle class family going to Disney World. Right. If

0:34:55 Eli: You go to Disney world, right, a bunch of people on the Internet are going to tell you how wasteful and selfish it is to go to Disney World, right? So so I actually think it's like important to point that out. Yeah but you know that utilitarianism is as to how it applies to our own family and how we raise our family in a set of morals that we are proud of right because what's very interesting for me is like I want max to be kinder he's already is I want max to be kinder and gentler uh more more loving, and more giving than I am, right? Want him to be better for the world than I am, and that is also part of the math when we consider these things, right, aside from the silly zombie example from a video game, right. This idea of what we want our kids to value because, you know, I want, I value Max everything, right I don't value myself above other people. Right. I want him to grow up to value other people above himself. You, they're a little bit of a cognitive difference show.

0:36:01 Tom: But see, I don't know that I want my kids to, I don't know that I agree with that, I don't know that I want my kids to value other people above themselves, I, I don't know that's what I want for my kids. I actually don't think that's what I wanted for my kid. Maybe there's a bigger, broader argument or conversation, but like I that I want that. I mean, like guess it depends on how we phrase it. And I because like on a relational level, for example, like a one to one relational level. Like I want them to make sure that like they do not become, you know, subservient tools of somebody who might manipulate or treat them poorly.

0:36:15 Eli: I mean, you don't

0:36:20 Thomas: Yeah it depends on what that means yeah yeah

0:36:34 Eli: Want them to be Lydia and Thomas's marriage. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah,

0:36:37 Tom: I don't want that. I want them to have a strong sense of themselves and their personal value and of that value and the sacrosanct nature of their personal values. It's funny because I'm right here with you, but there's a tension that is impossible to ever fully resolve. I think that the point is to to have a good tension between acting in our own self -interest, which is not wrong. It is okay to act in our self -interest, but also to understand that our self interest must have limits and

0:36:42 Thomas: Ja yeah yeah, I mean if I may, I think, I think I agree, I might be maybe a little bit in a different place than tom slightly but I largely think that's right I think I think once Once again, if we're phrasing it as, well, if I want my kid to be in a situation where it's their life or someone else's and they choose someone else is like, honestly, no, I don't want that. Would rather, I mean, that would be honorable like and I would be proud of them if they ever sacrificed their life for someone, but I would also be devastated and I don't want them to do that. But if we take it out of the kind of extreme like that, and we talk about in general, do lives such that they are sacrificing? They are keeping in mind working for greater good, to those who are vulnerable. In some way like that, I like them to have that impulse, kind and that drive to make the world better in a way that's somewhat self-sacrificing. So I think those are kind of, might be described the same way, but they're very different things, you

0:38:03 Thomas: Know?

0:38:03 Tom: And I, I agree with that. Like, but like, I, desiring you to live a life that matters in some way that is bigger to him and more meaningful to him than just wake up, get a job, make money. When I was a young person, I desperately wanted to live a life that mattered in some bigger way than wake up. Go to work, make money, and that's your life. And I did not want that. I did not know how to find something different than that. I had no idea how to engage a secular life of service, right? And there are ways to do it, but nobody around me knew how to do it, and I didn't really have the language to even ask for it. And so I just desperately knew that I wanted something to have meaning. Where got to be some push -pull tension is in your desire to live a life that is of service to other people, it can't be at expense to you. It's the problem with Kant's categorical imperative, and I don't want to get too far down that road, but one of the things I don't like about Kant is his idea that nothing is truly moral because you, you know, you can't really act with true altruism. I think that's nonsense.

0:39:08 Tom: I, problem I have with that is it's like the things we do matter more than how we feel or what motivates us to do them. I Think he's dead wrong about that.

0:39:15 Eli: It's the good place problem. I

0:39:16 Tom: Yeah. So it's exactly, it's the good place problem. That's a much more accessible example too. Like then watch The Good Place, but I don't know.

0:39:21 Eli: Think more of our listeners have read Kant than have watched The Good Place. I think

0:39:26 Tom: But, but like, I want Finn to live a life of service, but I want it to serve him, right? I want him to live a life of service, but I don't want it to hurt him to do it. I want him to life a life because it's what he wants.

0:39:37 Thomas: Well, or it might be to an extent that's, yeah yeah yeah. You wouldn't want him to be imprisoned and forced to do so, you You know, but like the idea that it's not going to cost anything, I think, is maybe a little bit. Then what are you doing really like? But hmm.

0:39:51 Eli: That you can give from abundance right that the ideal is not I mean we've all heard it give till it hurts and it's like nope don't do that right abundance and also give from abundance in all areas of your life I mean this is something that I am working on with my therapist but also that I think, you know, is just talk about toxic masculinity, like, I think that is a part of toxic masculinity is giving till it hurts in all the ways, physically, emotionally, in your relationships. And it's like, no, you should give from a place of abundance.

0:39:59 Tom: Yeah. No, stop before it hurts.

0:40:22 Eli: Right. And that, that includes, uh, meeting your own needs first. And then, then you can give right.

0:40:23 Tom: What do you mean by from a place of abundance? Describe that to me a little bit. Okay.

0:40:31 Eli: And Then you can do for others and then you you can get yes

0:40:31 Tom: So it's the gas mask thing. Okay, not air mask, oxygen mask. Oxygen mask, not gas mask, guys. Oxigen mask, oxigen mask. Whoa, that's a different problem.

0:40:37 Eli: Mask

0:40:45 Thomas: And me. The thing is, I think another good reason for that is you can do more good that way. Like you give from a place of abundance, you're not just I could one time right now give up every earthly possession and give it to like one guy. Or I could continue to take care of myself and generate resources to continually try to help people. And that's better. And

0:41:07 Tom: Yeah. To that, that, that is a, and I've talked about this before, but that is a motivator in my life, is I, like, I think you can take that same idea and it is the same idea that like should motivate you to like take care of your own personal health, for example. Right. I can't be useful to my family, if I am unwell.

0:41:23 Eli: Love towards the self is valuable love

0:41:26 Tom: So, there, and there are times when I'm like, yeah, I have got to go do this thing. I've got to do this. And it's like, yeah, in that moment, I could actually carve that. So it was always, I could carve that time out and give it to someone else and they would be grateful to receive it. But but I, I carved that out and, and I do not give that time to other people who would want and be grateful, to receive it because down the road, like this, this adds up in ways that serve everybody better because it serves me first it's the same idea and I think it works for a lot of resource management right that

0:41:54 Thomas: Nothing I understand less than going off to war or being in the military. There's nothing I understand less. I was actually, we don't have time, but I almost wanted to ask you guys, like what level of thing would have to be happening for you to like, okay, I'm going to join up. Like what? It would have to be a war.

0:42:11 Thomas: Yeah. It would have to be a were like in my backyard. I'd be like, all right, well, it's finally close enough that it's where, like, people throughout history, especially like in, you know, like World War One or whatever. And they're like, oh, yeah, I can't wait to go to the amount of close that the danger would have to be for me to go somewhere else away from my kids and die, is I can't even think of what that would be.

0:42:10 Tom: I join up oh I

0:42:33 Eli: Unless I'm protecting them and they're escaping I'm I'm a jew baby we have a long genetic history of like like oh oh they're doing it again let's go let's go get the shit get the oven the backs, bake the bread it'll it'll bake on our backs come on come on charge the ipad we'll go go go go go all right gentlemen before we go did you hear people magazine just revealed the world's most beautiful pair of testicles they're pretty nuts I

0:42:44 Thomas: Hey, that's me. Yeah, that'S absolutely me. Charge the ipad didn't

0:43:16 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:43:55 Eli: Like. Oh, yeah. I murdered that guy. Happens. People die. It's none of my business.

0:44:00 Thomas: Those are funny jokes, funny bits, funny goofs, but

0:44:03 Eli: It's not very unified and it's all very fascist and