DOD144: Having Our Kids' Backs

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad. That's my thing. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can. Complete and utter dependence. I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired.

0:00:22 Clip: Telling is the only part of being a father that I enjoy.

0:00:29 Tom: To Dear Old Dads, the podcast that the right intro for this show last week. So, I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:39 Eli: Hello. I'm happy to say that everything in my house is fixed. Record two episodes a week, so I don't know that that's happened. Oh, and Tony's our accountant. Him and Thomas, man, they had this beautiful moment where turned to him and he said, Tony, me.

0:00:44 Tom: I am certain that's not true.

0:00:44 Thomas: And the taxes are paid absolutely not biggest asshole I've ever

0:00:52 Tom: Brothers now.

0:00:56 Eli: At a certain point, you just have to admit that a man is smarter than you. And that's you to me, Tony. That's you to me. And Tony put his hand on his shoulder and he said, Thomas, you're the son I've never had. And it was really, it was beautiful. It was beautiful to watch.

0:01:11 Eli: And Tom's polyamorous now. Those are the things that took place in between these episodes.

0:01:15 Tom: Equally likely.

0:01:09 Thomas: I god a lot has happened uh equal idiot ah I think it's more likely we could turn Tom Pauly

0:01:17 Tom: Equally likely. Yeah. I think it's more likely we'd hire Tony.

0:01:25 Thomas: No that isn't there's zero I do don't you guys not know me like I'm not I will leave the company I'm nodding hey it's been a good show everybody um this is our farewell episode I will never ever give any of my money to that fucking fucking idiot I will not give any money to him never do it he's he's a perfect combination of the biggest asshole in the world and an idiot it is that's who you want to pay your money to anyway more happier topics yeah and you know what's even worse than tony is this

0:01:33 Eli: It's fine. Stay tuned everybody stay tuned so you know the only thing worse than the inevitable reappointment of tony as our accountant why it's the auto ads the auto ads are in there interrupting your podcast you don't like to hear some verizon ad perhaps in spanish which is what what always happens to me, you want smooth podcast listening experiences. And the only way to get it is one simple trick. That's giving us money over at patreon.com/dearolddads. You'll get access to a commercial free version of every episode. Plus you'll get little bonus stories at the end of every single show. Those bonus stories include parenting stories or little tidbits here and there, deep insights into the tragedy that is Thomas Smith's life. But you can only find them by I give enough is as little as a dollar over at patreon.com/dearolddads rip into it yeah

0:01:57 Tom: Tony the accountant rip into it did I do it right I feel like I

0:02:53 Eli: You know you nailed it 100 got

0:02:53 Tom: Died I felt I felt like I found the heart and soul of bit. Yeah.

0:02:56 Eli: Into one you got to do it with the conviction with which I insist tony will be our accountant that's what you got it rip into it

0:03:03 Thomas: A oh I know what this tony account thing is it's a way to soften me up to get rip into it to be our official motto it's like all right well okay not tony g like fine

0:03:11 Eli: Fine if you're gonna say no to tony then I guess you'll have to pay for these rip into Intuit t -shirts. Yeah.

0:03:15 Thomas: Rip intoit okay fine yeah no that's yeah that does sound more more reasonable by comparison.

0:03:19 Eli: It's just the dear old dad's logo, but it's in that. Remember that like Raptor font that certain sports teams would use? Like it was looked like tears.

0:03:25 Thomas: Like the Toronto Raptors?

0:03:26 Eli: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Them. Sure. You could have said literally anything just now. And I would have been like, yep.

0:03:31 Thomas: Do they still exist?

0:03:32 Eli: My favorite team.

0:03:32 Thomas: They might not still exist. They might have moved. I actually have no memory of it. Anyway, the

0:03:36 Eli: Raptors. Uh, they went extinct a couple thousand years ago.

0:03:38 Thomas: Toronto raptors.

0:03:39 Eli: Idiot. I liked that. I'd said thousand. Thousand is good.

0:03:46 Thomas: That's what I caught after

0:03:48 Eli: Thousands. The good is the, is the beautiful shine on that um as it's so often in the case here on d -roll dads uh week, I shared a TikTok with the guys, and this is sort of an ongoing saga. What happened is, well, China wants your data.

0:03:48 Thomas: Not hearing it. Yeah that's good so us never watching them holy

0:04:01 Tom: I want to say real quick, I discovered something important about TikTok I want to share with the audience, and that is you can download the app, not establish an account. And if somebody sends you a TikTok, you can still watch it. I have no account for TikTok. I've never logged in. I didn't create a login. All I did was verify my birthday and I can I watch a TikTok that Eli sends me.

0:04:19 Thomas: Shit well that's enough that's how they get you oh

0:04:26 Tom: That's it. So I don't have to have a fucking TikTok account, which I'll never use and don't want to have, but I can watch the TikToks finally. Cause before Eli, I would send them to Haley, like a, like an old person. Like, can be like, fuck, I got to watch this because what if it's accidentally relevant to the show and not just some crazy shit Eli's sending me? And that's almost never the case. But I would send him to her anyway. Like, all right, can you open this on your phone? And then she would be like yes, old man, with your graying fucking hair.

0:04:51 Thomas: Do you guys do this one okay this well obviously eli doesn't but this is tom I don't know if you'll relate to this sometimes I try to watch the things my wife sends because she is my wife and my favorite person so I do make some amount of effort but also sometimes I just the phone and the sound bothers me the fact that they have we talked about this, the, the diabolical battle that may just be between me and every app and how to turn on the sound for their videos. It's a cat and mouse game. They, they, what they want you to do is turn on the sound and then not be able to turn it off. That's what they Want. And so they hide the fucking volume button after you do it. And so I'm very, very hesitant to watch any sort of fucking video that my wife sends me ever. Uh, and sometimes I see it. I see this, this little preview and I'll be honest, sometimes I think, okay, that's enough. I can guess what that was.

0:05:40 Eli: I get it. There's a cat. Yeah.

0:05:42 Thomas: There's a, yeah, something I can, I can guess. And almost always wrong on that, by the way. That's, that means, I'll be honest with myself. That's hard, actually. The screenshot the video is usually not enough for me to meaningfully relate to my wife on it. So what I'll do is when she says, oh, did you watch the video I sent? And I'd be like, oh which one? It was this one. And it turns out I hadn't. I'll go, oh yeah. And she's like, you gotta watch it. And then what I basically do is filibuster until she just pulls out her phone and turns. Because she said we equally have it like she sent it.

0:06:11 Thomas: I, you know, it's the same. It's the Same Place, actually. It's equally the same place. And so then she'll play it for me.

0:06:17 Tom: I do something similar because Haley likes to know that I've watched the video she sends. And she gets like real happy to know like I've enjoyed the same thing that she's enjoyed, right? So what I do now is I don't even check them until we're together. Together and then I'll be like oh let me watch all the videos that you sent me and then like I'll like sit there watch the videos she sent me again with her and that's how we actually watch all this shit that she sends me because we both get to sort of re -enjoy it again but I I even check my messages I'm like I don't even look at them until we're together and I can watch them with her oh

0:06:49 Thomas: She needs to do a TikTok that's just reaction to you watching the stuff. And then she's going to play it. She'll be on the side reacting to your reaction. I think that's all media now. It's just that.

0:06:56 Tom: My god no that's yeah right yeah we're

0:07:00 Eli: My problem with that is that when Anna, so I could not watch stuff in front of people people that I love, especially if they think it's funny, because I will often find something funny, but because I have comedian brain when I'm not consciously thinking about it, I don't laugh at

0:07:17 Tom: Yeah well I'm aware of that having having recorded hundreds of episodes of citation needed with you and hearing the deafening silence of your disapproval on the other side.

0:07:20 Thomas: Tom, so that's the explanation.

0:07:26 Eli: I told you I'm waiting for my turn to talk, and that is what's most important. I'm fully focused on that.

0:07:32 Thomas: I genuinely thought it was because you didn't believe another person could ever be funny, like compared to you.

0:07:33 Tom: He does believe that that is a hundred percent. That's locked in, man.

0:07:38 Eli: Also, it's a big part of it. That's why I'm being radically vulnerable when I say that's obviously true um no uh problem is like I want to say that I love these videos and I can often respond privately right I can toss in an lol or like that's so cute in a messenger where if you watched me watch I would would just be like it's stone -faced silence you know yeah

0:07:59 Thomas: Stone -faced. Yep. Yep, Actually, I have that too. Now that I think about it, that is... Oh,

0:08:05 Tom: Wait a minute. You can't like, you not like laugh or smile because like, you know, this is a shared moment. Like

0:08:11 Thomas: Sorry. I want to clarify. Eli can't laugh or smile because that would admit someone else is funny. I just have a thing where I feel like often I don't find stuff as funny as maybe other people might. And so I appreciate that when it's a text, I can just give the old laugh react. And then it's like, it's the perfect crime. You think I laughed just as much as you at that. And sometimes, you know, it is fun. It's, you know it's, it chuckle, but

0:08:36 Tom: Me like I if I think if I were to watch half the stuff that I get sent without hayley laughing next to me I would be like yeah that was funny and because she's laughing and taking such joy in it like it ramps it up for me it's like I like other people's like I'm very like a reactive to other people yeah right yeah up. I need the laugh track, Thomas.

0:08:51 Thomas: That's why you leave the sitcom audience. Yeah. Oh my

0:08:56 Tom: I'm the dullard the laugh track is meant for. I fucking hate laugh tracks. Is there anything worse than a laugh track you like, Bosnick?

0:09:02 Eli: We

0:09:02 Thomas: God. Didn't we already do that? Didn't do that.

0:09:04 Tom: Holy shit, we did.

0:09:05 Thomas: It is the auto Autoass. Double autoass.

0:09:04 Eli: Did that yeah man lots

0:09:08 Tom: Hey, oh, what is this? Look,

0:09:08 Eli: Of things are worse oh you doesn't laugh at my jokes tom doesn't know where he is in our fucking show

0:09:13 Thomas: All right, Joe Biden.

0:09:14 Tom: I'm not paying a lot

0:09:15 Thomas: Come on.

0:09:15 Tom: Of attention right now.

0:09:18 Thomas: Tom is unfit.

0:09:15 Eli: Grandpa joe trying to murder your political opponent uh

0:09:24 Thomas: So anyway, the TikTok that you, yeah.

0:09:27 Tom: So the TikTok, we'll get get to it yeah yeah

0:09:29 Eli: So the the tiktok that I saw is basically a girl who is like a relatively shy person got sent home from school for being high. Now, she wasn't high. She has allergies and she's a shy person who gets nervous in front of her teachers. The get a call at school and they're like, hey, your kid is high. Come in and get her. So they see that their daughter is very much not high. She's just like having anxiety because she's in trouble at school. And also has eyes that are red because of the season uh they're like great can we give her a drug test at home just to make sure that this isn't the case yeah and

0:10:04 Thomas: A drug test? I'm already, like, that was already weird.

0:10:08 Eli: They'relike hey she's not high and they're like well we think she's high andthey'relike great we're going to give her a drug tested home like cool give her drug tested home so they go they give her a drug testing home I'm summing up a very long tick tock right they go they give her a drug tested home sorry of course the girl had not been smoking pot so they bring it in they're like hey she wasn't this is what was happening uh and they're Like oh that's not valid we have to at the nurse's office so they give her a drug test there at the nurse's officer's office and again it's kid has not smoked pot right the drug test comes up negative so the dad comes in and is like hey like she's really upset that she got sent home and suspended and stuff like that there was all these punishments being levied at her now that that's not the case and the punishments are undone we would like someone to apologize to her specifically we'd like the like assistant principal who like called us and told her she was in trouble and all that stuff we'd like them to like speak to her and the school district called this meeting this is the tiktok that I sent you where they were like we have decided that it would be inappropriate for a assistant principal

0:10:13 Thomas: Jesus. Yeah, yeah, yeah。 okay

0:11:08 Eli: To enact the action in which you have requested it within 30 days you may give feedback to this decision by filling out form 84B slash nine. And so I think there are two, fuck these people is the obvious reaction to that TikTok. But I think There are two really important conversations to be had there. And you know, we were talking last week about healthy anger, right? Like me not having it. And So I think this is actually a really important thing, which is like, when the system does an unfair thing to your kid, and I know we have listeners who have been that I I know we have listeners who have kids who have, like, the victim of systematic, like horribleness. What do you do? What How do you react? How do you train yourself to react in the best possible way? Because, like I make a lot of jokes about it and they're hilarious and amazing and I'm very busy making them, which is why I don't have time to laugh at Tom's jokes. But, like I genuinely don't know what to do if I am ever in that position. Right. Genuinely when they don't know what to do I can't handle a fucking carpenter's dispute right

0:12:13 Thomas: This yeah to make one comment and we don't have to go with it at all but just the woke fucking person in me this is why when people get mad at like black lives matter protesters I get so fucking frustrated by the fact oh no they should just politely be like hey please don't keep killing our sons and daughters and you know like please sir don't do police violence on us it's like no if if those people were half of an eli we'd have terrorism every day you the idea that we're that people should just sit and politely take it when they're getting like actually killed is just absurd so how do you do it I actually don't know in this situation I don't know that I would be an Eli but I would be pretty fucking mad I what the fuck is do we think this is like this is some bureaucratic way to a dude doesn't hasn't have to apologize is that all this is or am I missing something yeah

0:13:00 Tom: So so I think it matters a great deal to sort of define with specificity what systems are being unfair right and I think that kind of speaks to your point thomas right so if the system that's being unfair is the criminal justice system that's a wildly different response than if the system that's being unfair to your kid is the school system like in terms of what like our rights are and like how we can interact with those things you know so if think if your kid is engaged in a system where you have actually a lot more rights than you may think that you have which would be the school systems that there are ways for you to engage that and I will tell you that on our side, we haven't had kids get in trouble at in any meaningful way. But there have been a number of times where we've been unhappy with the school's response to something. And what we've done is we just put everybody in the school system on blast with an email. So it's like, oh, I didn't like that answer from the teacher. So the next escalation is not teacher to principal, but it's teacher to vice principal to principal plus the dean plus the school board and

0:14:08 Tom: All of its members. And this way, what you've shown people is I immediately escalate to the maximum level in order to get answers that we want. Aislinn's private school during COVID here in Illinois, there was a mask mandate during COVID for schools and the school, the private school she went to at one point said, hey, you know, we called Jesus and then we decided we're not doing masks because Jesus And he's like, yeah, I didn't wear a mask on the cross bullshit.

0:14:39 Thomas: Made women on their periods leave town but oh

0:14:44 Tom: But we're not we're not doing mask. So, you with them to see if I could win that argument. I did not win that argument. And then I immediately went to the newspaper and I immediately went to the at the same time that I did that, I went to this state board of education. And within a handful of days, they had their license taken away, their ability to teach.

0:15:02 Tom: And there was a story that was written. And then lo and behold, masks came back within a handful of days. I think that there's some systems where you have to say, I am willing to take this if the system itself is unfair. You've got to be like, cool, I got a great big spotlight.

0:15:02 Thomas: Holy shit. Wow. Then there's also the case of like, well, when you're facing a bigger system potentially where you know, you know that you're not going to solve it in time, not just like, oh, for our lifetimes, but often with kids stuff, it's like, well, they're going to a new school next year or they're gonna, you Know, there's that balancing test of like I want to fight this, but like how much is it worth it? How much is it going to make the kid's life worse right now? And that's a really hard balance, I think, to strike oftentimes.

0:15:47 Thomas: But with COVID, I want to make very clear with your case, 100%. I wasn't suggesting that your case.

0:15:46 Tom: And here's like in but in the tick tock that eli was referring to I think there was an interesting principle that was involved that I want to talk about a little bit because I really appreciated it and hayley and I had a long conversation about it after we watched the TikTok together you know and in and this case the school was up in 15 days and what they could have done is they could Have just said hey privately we know this is bullshit shit. School's over in two weeks. Let's just get through the next two weeks that I think would have been really a bad call. Parenting wise. I think parenting wise, you've got to say, look, if it's unfair, even if we can't win, you need to see that I'm here to fight for you.

0:16:28 Tom: You need to see that. I'm going to like show up and I'm gonna be a fucking bulldog and I'M gonna call meetings and IMA to tape those meetings and put those meetings on social media.

0:16:39 Tom: And I'm you're being treated unfairly right if there's a system that is going to treat you poorly the kids have to see that they've got your back like that you as their parents are willing to sort of like show up for them even if you lose even if the system can't be swayed even if the bureaucracy runs you right at the fuck over at least what the kids will get from that piece is well man my dad went to bat here my mom went to bad here they fought for me here I think that that shit is at a principle level and a relational level. I think that shit is real, real important.

0:17:12 Eli: That's what this dad is doing in the tiktok right is he's bringing that to public attention he has obviously hit the wall of uh you kafka -esque paperwork as it will and uh bringing that to public attention because public attention changes that stuff but I I worry a lot right because the the emotional regulation shown by that parent and maybe this is the the part that I'm worried about more than like what does one do is like what does One do about how you feel right I'm so glad you brought up that story tom because that that is the example I think of quite a bit um and I wasn't sure if I was allowed to tell that story on air so I was gonna be like tom I we can cut this if you want but like I think this is a really good example of it but

0:17:52 Thomas: I, too, knew that Tom spotlighted a fucking thing and did. Did you also expose the Catholic Church while you were at it? I don't know if you told me this and I forgot it or what, but I didn't know you did all that.

0:17:59 Tom: I remember if I mentioned this

0:18:03 Thomas: I probably forgot it, to be honest with you. But that's really cool.

0:18:03 Tom: Before. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah,

0:18:05 Eli: But amount of control over your emotions that takes right because like I I think something thing that we talk about on this show that is good right is we talk about like not failing in the way that our parents failed us right and my parents didn't significantly fail me like I think my parents did a pretty awesome job but like thomas you've talked about the way of like showing up in ways that your dad didn't show up for you tom you of course show up in major ways that your mom didn't show up for you I don't think you fed any of your children to a snapping turtle for example right do we do when we have weaknesses that our parents didn't have uh we don't have a like I'm not gonna be like that model right because thomas you know something that you've talked about a bit is like I have the impulse to that and I know it's bad so I do the opposite right whenever I have the like we'll stay away from the precious impulse I'm like oh shit I gotta go to the park with my kids and I and I do feel that but the protective impulse which my parents were very good Not that they had to do it very often, but my parents were very, very good at protecting me. And I feel ill -equipped to protect them. Right? Told the story before

0:18:35 Tom: Not yet. Not yet. Because you think you'll lose your temper and won't be effective.

0:19:21 Eli: And... exactly. Because the way I will lose my temper will directly make it worse in any possible situation.

0:19:28 Thomas: Eli, I constantly worry, even though I don't, I don'T quite have your insanity, but it's close because I worry that no matter if me or my child is the wrong person that I will come in and be such an asshole that all of a sudden I'm actually the villain of the thing, you know, even Though I'm definitely not, but if you're, if you'RE an soul enough if you're disruptive enough then people look at that as like well you're the one making the fuss like this person sure what they did was wrong and in my mind it's because people don't like evaluate how much worse it is if like institutional power is doing something wrong but hey we live in and a society a lot of people would be like yeah but you're also yelling so that's wrong as yeah

0:20:10 Tom: I think for this sort of thing, I think it's It's important if it's possible for you. I think it's important to have two places that you can talk. And what I mean by that is I think it's a place

0:20:22 Eli: You want me to get a second therapist. Okay, Dom, I hear you. Sound just like him. Can I say that?

0:20:30 Tom: Where you can have an emotionally volatile conversation and that space so you have that outlet and then a separate place and know that like, okay, I can vent to my friend or my spouse about all the ways this infuriates me and is unfair. And actually in a circumstance with the kids, sometimes maybe that answer shouldn't be your spouse, right? Because they're probably also hyped up and amplified and emotional.

0:20:58 Thomas: Gosh that's oh that's a big one for dads to consider by the way I think great point eli

0:21:04 Tom: Think you've got to have a place for that, right. I think You've got got to have a place where you can kind of be unfair in your speech and not careful and like vent out and just be fucking frustrated about stuff this

0:21:14 Thomas: Have you considered getting a dummy car that you can go and slash the tires you slash your own tires that that might honestly, it's safer for you.

0:21:19 Eli: Slash my own tires. It's true. It's my property.

0:21:24 Tom: Just keying his car like I but workspace I teach other people to do the same thing what I I tell managers that work for me all the time is when you vent, you never vent down. You never vent down to your employees. No matter how frustrated you are with a situation, you cannot vent down because it's ineffective. It creates a problem.

0:21:44 Thomas: Just now I'm picturing Tom yelling that as a, you never bent down ever. You scum.

0:21:50 Tom: So what I tell them is like, vent to me. Like, I'm your boss. It's okay to call me and just be like, I just need to vent. Be like, cool, we're not problem solving. We're just venting. And then we have that conversation that just lives in that emotional space. It's like with your kids, you've got to be able to find, because then you can kind of put that somewhere, and then you can have that rational conversation with the powers that be, because you've already got a space for those emotional outbursts. Because we do live in a space where as soon as you start yelling, cursing, losing control, you're lost. Bureaucracy is rubbing its hands together in glee at that point, no matter which bureaucracy it is. This is true of like schools. This is true of, like, doctor's offices. This is true all the time.

0:22:33 Thomas: I know I bring this, uh, you know, back to my one experience all the time, fellas, but is it kind of like when someone stole an entire company and tried to embarrass me publicly and it cost me half a million fucking dollars. And then I put some intro quotes that were like ambiguous and could have meant either way. And they're like, well, that's okay. That's too far. Thomas, you have gone too far, it's unfortunately there's, that's a lot of people are that fucking stupid. I mean, are that dedicated to politeness?

0:23:04 Tom: Think having two spaces for this kind of stuff is really valuable.

0:23:07 Thomas: Another podcast, got it.

0:23:11 Tom: Do you think that would help Eli?

0:23:13 Eli: Tough to say. You know, one of the things that I am trying to work on lately, and I apologize for turning this into the Eli's Therapy podcast, but one of the things I'm trying to look on lately is asking other people for help. And Tom, I know you deal with this in the same way. And Thomas, I know you do this as well. When you're at the bottom of the pyramid for so many people, it's really hard to ask for help, it is really hard to reach out and say, hey, do I have someone I can vent to? Because while you were saying that, again, I completely agree with it. I was like, yeah, but like, who am I going to bother about that stuff?

0:23:48 Eli: You know, like, I don't want to impose on anybody.

0:23:48 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. Well, you at least have a therapist. That's that's good yeah oh

0:23:55 Eli: I do have it there. That's true. Yeah. But like, how do to about that stuff and also my And again, not that this invalidates your solution, Tom. I think it's a good solution. And I think could, it would prevent the problem. My worry is always like my temper in the moment, right?

0:24:10 Tom: -hmm.

0:24:10 Eli: Because it is truly a lot of the time, a coin flip between me being like the sunniest, sweetest person or like complete psychopathy. Right. And I often don't feel like I have a lot of control over that. Um, I will say, you know, not to put myself in too vulnerable position here but like if anger is involved I don't say I get violent but I talk about violence almost immediately right like I shared the conversation with you guys of like carrying anna's um into the bathroom at the science museum and a guy being like uh is the men's room and me basically instantly being like would you like to have a fist fight other father in this science museum right and like that's that's not good that's not bueno but here's the thing right are a small man with small ideas and you should feel bad for yourself right is what is to say let us roll about and punch each other is not the right thing to say under any circumstances and especially when someone has expressed that they don't care about proper societal norms like that like I'm gonna run into some people People who are like, I too don't understand that that's an inappropriate way to deal with emotions. Shall we roll about with the punching? And I'll be like, I would love to roll about with the punch in good sir. After you. You know what I'm saying? And like, again, this is something I have dealt with my entire life. And there have been anywhere from moderate to some pretty severe consequences for it at points in my

0:24:55 Thomas: That's appropriate actually no Eli

0:25:40 Eli: Life. I mean, there are stories I could tell that have been extremely not cash money where my mouth has written checks. I definitely, well, Well, I, yes.

0:25:47 Thomas: Has gotten his ass kicked a lot of times you know we talked about it more in the beginning of the show like the first few months of the show every other story was about Eli getting his ass kicked in increasingly funny ways but we haven't gone there in a while so you know anytime you want to dust those off hmm

0:26:00 Eli: Exactly. Only have I gotten my ass kicked a bunch of times, but I also like got in trouble for winning a fight, which is something that they don't talk to you about as a young man. Like saw my dad fight a lot in a small town and I saw him win those fights. And then like, cops would come, sometimes it wasn't, but then they would just be like, all right, Dave, get out of here. I think I can remember one time that he was like arrested and it's because he won by too much but like again as a child I did not see all of those consequences so I'm not aware if he like had charges pressed against him or anything like that but like I have won a fight and then been arrested and they've been like hey you might be charged with assault yeah we went all the way down to the like it was a whole thing and I was like that whole time I kept being like oh no we just had a fight And they were like, what do you think that you I was drunk at the time. Reasons why I'm sober. I was drunken at the top and I was like, is dueling laws,

0:26:50 Tom: You can't just do that right yeah

0:26:58 Eli: Man? And the cop was like I'm sorry. Do you believe dueling is still legal? And I was like, no, but it's like it inherits from dueling laws. And he was like it sure doesn't. It sure doesn't

0:27:12 Thomas: I don't know this one at all geez I just can't believe you ever won a fight who did who's on the other end Jesus you

0:27:16 Eli: I know. I know it's like I So it was a child. It was a it was a six year old boy and I

0:27:19 Tom: That third grader did not yeah scrappier than you would have thought though scrappyer than you would've thought

0:27:23 Eli: Surprised them.

0:27:23 Thomas: Can duel a child you're allowed to duel a child

0:27:26 Eli: Want me to do it. It's called respect. Yeah, like that. That was a real thing. And that's bad. Right. And I live with those consequences. And I've done a lot of really good work to make myself better. I know from the way I present myself on this podcast. Right, I must seem like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde to more people, but there used to not be a Jekyl, everybody.

0:27:46 Eli: It used to be all Hyde all the time. And everybody was just like, stay out of that psycho's way. So I've done a lot of really good work and I'm proud of that work. And I also think it's important to own like, hey, when you have a certain makeup, when You have certain impulses, the work you do is important and good, right? And you credit for that, even if it's not necessarily perfect. Here's my thing. As sad as those consequences were for me, as bad as those consequences were from me. And I will say as long as it has been, I mean, I was a very, very young man. I was in my early twenties. The last time I rolled around on the ground with another person with the punching. Right. Like, again, it's been more than a decade since I have made those mistakes. I'm just aware that I have those proclivities. My worry is the stakes have never been higher than they are with Max. And where I feel the most vulnerable. That's where I feel least in control. And the consequences won't be for me. The consequences could be for him.

0:28:48 Tom: I I guess like I don't know that I have piece of advice to offer because you already have a therapist but I would strongly so there's there's been any there's number I can I can kind of empathize that my kids specifically have been put in situations any number of times where my emotionally, like I have wanted to be extremely reactive to to the positions of danger.

0:29:08 Thomas: Sargon was around them and still

0:29:11 Eli: No, Tom doesn't defend his wife when Sargon says mean things about her. Remember, Thomas? I

0:29:13 Tom: That is not the case at all. But I will say, like, look,

0:29:21 Eli: Like that I'm trying to encourage you to fight this person in a time machine if I

0:29:23 Thomas: Still yeah it's like eight years later no I still it still applies I I think I

0:29:29 Eli: Could change the narrative enough tom might go back in time and fight sargon and I think we all agree that's a that's cash money world it's

0:29:32 Thomas: Think there's a setting on his ball shocker 5000 like he goes too far on it and his balls go back in time

0:29:39 Tom: There's thousand percent that would have been a great joy to me to do. But like there have been an number of times where where things have happened with my kids, where they've been, you situation has not been cash money, to use your phrase. And I have felt extremely emotionally reactive in those moments. And recognize that what I need to be is effective, not cathartic. Emotionally reacting might be cathartIC for me, but it's not effective.

0:30:08 Tom: And my goal as a parent is to be an effective parent. And so I keep that in the forefront, not the background, but the forefront of my mind, especially when I'm challenged in that way. And I'll make me get kind of like a fucking psycho because I'll get real quiet and take me a real long time to respond. Bond, but

0:30:26 Eli: Is is this the thing where you think you're calm tom

0:30:28 Tom: I'm calm. Look, I'm not, no one is under, if I'm angry, not grumpy, but angry, I guarantee everyone is aware of that. But what I also guarantee is that I'm not losing my temper unless got to push me awfully intentionally to get me there.

0:30:44 Eli: Looks at a pot of boiling water and he's like nobody could tell what's going on with that water that's how tom is when he's angry exactly

0:30:54 Tom: But I'm saying like with the kids, like, especially that's a moment where like, you've got to try to find a space where you think, where you have to be able to say like, what I need for the kids is to be effective right now. And if you can't be effective, then you've gotta remove yourself until you can come back and be effective. And, if you cant do that at all, then what you have do is find somebody in your life that can advocate for your kids in a way that's effective and not cathartic because Because your to be right or your need to vent or your needs to like explode or have that cathartic like release the kids don't need that.

0:31:27 Tom: That's not what your kids need from you.

0:31:28 Eli: Doesn't serve them.

0:31:29 Tom: It doesn't. It does not serve them. So there have been I can't tell you how many situations I feel like my kids have been put in where what I've wanted to do and what would be I think emotionally fair for me to do would not have been effective. And so I've had to, I've had to sort of take deep breaths, take moments, stare off into the middle distance, clench my jaw till my teeth crack, whatever it takes, you yeah.

0:31:54 Eli: Through a block of wood that I pull from a structure I'm standing near.

0:31:58 Tom: Whatever it takes though, whatever, whatever.

0:31:59 Thomas: That's what happened Eli's column and

0:32:00 Tom: Whatever it takes to to not be ineffective for their care. Right. And that's a really tough ask. Like it's a huge, big ask, but but I think if you frame it in your mind is, is this effective or is this just for me? That give you that moment of pause for your forebrain to take control over your emotional brain. Does that make any sense? Does that seem useful at all?

0:32:23 Eli: Absolutely not. It's completely useful. It is 100% true. And I think it is important to remind myself of, and I will say, I want to give myself credit, there have been moments of not cash money -ness. Now, again, we have been wildly lucky, but there have been moments of not awesomeness. And I have shown up very well in those moments for Max, right? Where we have had to advocate hard for Max and it has been fine, right where I bet if you had asked me, how are you going to deal with this? I would have worried that I would deal badly. And I think the stakes do help that. I think The Stakes do make that easier to understand and remember. Yeah I think I think that's an incredible incredible advice and a much more important outlook as well right

0:33:07 Thomas: We're often in this hostage situation where the thing I think what you're saying is not only true but more true than I think most dudes realize like almost almost never I would say almost never is the appropriate solution any problem any sort of forget fighting just of show intimidation or violence like it like even in situations that seem like they what is called for the better thing would be if you somehow uh had that situation in a way that kept some sort of rapport like so that the threat was never there to begin with I mean it just is like it's it sucks because I think a lot of you know the male instinct is like yeah but there's gonna be sometimes when I got to step up and be like, oh no, and it's like, okay, maybe if you've gotten yourself into that situation, then maybe, yeah, like you will have to have some sort of conflict, but the better option was to not get in that situation. And there's always a way to avoid that. Pretty Like much always.

0:34:01 Eli: And that you made that point because again one of the things that we talk about on the show is like pushing back against toxic masculinity and I think one of the pieces of toxic masculinity that I got really badly is like cues for disagreement are cues to fight right you see that all the time in like um and tv right where like bruce willis is riding the train and these guys get on and they're like hey hey man give us your wallet and he he never like just leaves or de -escalates the situation right he always like breaks their bones or depending on the rating maybe murders them right I'm only kind of joking that like that's all demonstrations of manhood right like I remember the the quiet man was my grandfather's favorite movie I don't know if you've ever seen this I

0:34:40 Thomas: That's true. Yeah, yeah. I don't think I've I

0:34:53 Tom: I don't know that that movie now

0:34:53 Thomas: Don' think I see it. Which one is that again?

0:34:55 Eli: It's called the quiet men and this is this is the plot of the movie it's uh it's wayne and he goes back to small town in ireland where where he's from and wants to marry this girl and the dad doesn't like him and

0:34:57 Thomas: Who is it again? Who's? Oh, is this the one that where they fight for like an hour?

0:35:12 Eli: Wants to fight him. And the entire movie is him refusing to fight the dad while the dad's like, you're a fucking pussy. And the end of the movie is he fights the dad.

0:35:25 Thomas: They fight for, like, a half hour. I remember. Yeah Yeah. It's like really funny.

0:35:26 Eli: It 40 minute fight scene. Yes. Where they just, they fight their way through all elements of this town.

0:35:32 Thomas: The whole town. Yes. My my older sister loved old movies. Uh, it's weird how, how much that goes along with her turning Catholic. Like, I feel like there's just something weird there. They want that like old timey masculine. Cause that, that's something that she would watch and unironically be like, this is the best. Yeah, Yeah, this is, this is how problems are solved.

0:35:44 Eli: And here's the thing I grew up with my grandfather showing me that movie and being like you see when a man is pushed too far he's definitely not if you like that movie or if you've watched that movie if you're just peripherally aware of that movie I promise you from my heart from the part of my testicles that makes boys you do not realize how little provocation is in that that movie until you rewatch it you could just be I mean you swap out john wayne for thomas smith that movie is 45 seconds long it's like you won't be marrying my daughter till you prove yourself a man uh do you want to leave this your dad's a piece of shit I'm not gonna talk to him anymore I'm gonna go wait in the car if you want a fucking oh you you're on your dad side on this okay well this isn't gonna work out um nice meeting you you all suck you should be ashamed and then the credits hit right but like I grew up with that and was so deeply aware of that and again I modeled on my dad who had a temper who I would watch fight and because he was so perfect in my head it never occurred to me and like as an adult one of the hard pieces of work I've had to do I remember a therapist years ago and I had such bad cognitive dissonance show plug um had such bad disonance at the moment that I like got insulted I had this therapist for a while when I was in hospital and she was like do you think your dad ever fought someone who he could have not fought like do You think he ever like picked on anybody and I was like uh no you fucking whore do

0:36:36 Thomas: That is absolutely, that is 100%. Yeah.

0:37:24 Eli: You want to fight me and she Was like interesting let's explore how you reacted to that and I Was like let's not I'm gonna draw a picture sure you getting eaten by an alligator

0:37:34 Thomas: This is so believable to me like that.

0:37:37 Tom: Is a thousand percent true I believe this with my with my whole heart

0:37:39 Eli: Thomas

0:37:39 Thomas: My god that is um that's what an insight too by that person that's excellent yeah

0:37:44 Tom: I had I another couple of thoughts I wanted to offer too and see where you're where you guys land them because this happens to me I know I know I'm sorry

0:37:49 Eli: Just yap yap yap this episode buddy open the floor a little I'm sorry everyone I I try to keep him from talking on the show you see me doing my best that's

0:37:58 Tom: It's they mute my mic most of the time but like there but there's something that I do like I don't know if you this guys do the same thing it might just be because hayley and I are um blended family and many of the situations that we've encountered have involved involved. Kids and of she's got a little bit different sense of space or distance. So but, you know, like it's just different with step step parents or whatever. But what happens for me and I do this from time to time is like something will come up and I'll turn to her and I'll realize like I'm not thinking clearly right now, like like there's just like a dull buzz right in the back of my head. And I'm just like, I'm recognizing that I'm I'm not a creative problem solver right now. I don't know how to be an effective parent through this situation. And I'll just turn to her and I'll be like, I need help. I can't think right now, can you help me? I need someone else to help me think this through. And then there have been times where we've both, where I've recognized like, hey, we're both pretty reactive in this moment right now and I've turned to her and said, hey this is too big for us. We need help thinking

0:38:01 Eli: Most of the time yeah she hits right

0:39:00 Thomas: Need a

0:39:00 Tom: This through right now and and that

0:39:00 Thomas: New kid no I'm just kidding

0:39:03 Eli: We gotta get rid of amen we We got to get rid of him.

0:39:05 Tom: It I love you amen ignore this man he does not speak for me but but I feel like having somebody in your life that you can turn to when you can't think through the situation is really really useful and I think having like professionals that you you can turn to if you realize like, shit, this problem is too big. We should not be responsible for problem solving in this moment. Both of those things are like moments of clarity that I think we have to seek out in ourselves, even in those like big emotional moments, which are hard for men to do.

0:39:08 Eli: Eamon, if you're listening from prison, this is why. Right. Yeah.

0:39:41 Tom: Like, cause you're at, you're raising your hand and being like, I'm not the answer right now. And I got to tell you, like in 99% of my life, I's always walking in the room with my hand up up and being like, yep, I'm the answer right now. That's literally my job. You know, let me be the answer. Let me be this solution. And it doesn't feel good for me to have to be like, yeah, I actually can't think right now, my brain doesn't seem to be working. I can't think and I need help. But Haley does an outstanding job of of recognizing that like, OK, like going to be the problem solver right now and she does a great job. And like I said, there's been times where I've been like, hey, I don't think think either of us are thinking clearly let's make a phone call like let's get somebody else that's a professional here involved let's never I said a professional

0:40:21 Thomas: Call eli oh yeah so

0:40:25 Eli: Should kill that guy. You should killed that guy, so

0:40:29 Thomas: There any more to this story or was it just like this hat did they you know like is there a fucking update on this

0:40:34 Eli: I don't know how it got resolved. I haven't seen it. You know, I hope my FYP brings me back for the resolution. But until then, oh, for you, Paige, is the slang. I'm sort of the youth of this podcast. I keep, uh, I keep all the hip hop going.

0:40:36 Thomas: Dang sorry what it yeah yes you objectively are I think

0:40:54 Eli: You know what I'm saying?

0:40:54 Thomas: I'm like one year older than you but also 20 years older than you yeah

0:40:57 Eli: And to be fair, Tom is 78 now, 79, bud.

0:41:00 Thomas: Tom's

0:41:00 Tom: That's that's true yeah that's truth yeah I've well can we wrap this up my moons are over my hammy are getting cold these

0:41:01 Thomas: Not tom's in the running for young but yeah he's not even yeah hey

0:41:03 Eli: That's true. Exactly. Got to get that daytime special. All All right, gentlemen, before we go, to whoever stole my copy of Microsoft Office, I will find you. You have my word.

0:41:26 Thomas: You got a better source for these lately or something these are killer I love it

0:41:29 Tom: Are good these are all right

0:41:34 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:42:14 Eli: Raptors. Uh, they went extinct a couple thousand years ago. Idiot.

0:42:18 Tom: You know, we called Jesus and then we decided we're not doing masks because