DOD140: All Apologies

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad. That's my thing. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can. Complete and utter dependence. I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired.

0:00:22 Clip: Telling is the only part of being a father that I enjoy.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's sorry you feel that way. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:39 Thomas: What a meaningful statement. I feel so much better that you said that, Tom.

0:00:42 Eli: Get

0:00:42 Tom: Didn't that just reach right in there and just help you right out?

0:00:45 Thomas: It

0:00:46 Eli: Into your hearts.

0:00:46 Thomas: It tells me you care. Yeah.

0:00:48 Eli: That's right. Tells me you care. It's the greeting card with just your name in it of parenting.

0:00:56 Tom: Can we pause on greeting cards real quick? Do you guys do cards when you give gifts still like yeah do you

0:01:01 Eli: To people who can read, not to children.

0:01:04 Thomas: We only do them to children and not to people can read, which I think is funny.

0:01:09 Tom: So I you know what at least out here is impossible now to find is greeting cards that are blank inside I

0:01:13 Thomas: The blank? Yeah.

0:01:14 Eli: Impossible.

0:01:15 Thomas: I've done this bit. Just give me a blank thing.

0:01:17 Tom: You I do not want you to write your sappy stupid fucking hallmark shit I'll write my own sappy stupid hallmark shit thank you very much and got to order them online line

0:01:25 Eli: Cuz

0:01:24 Thomas: Hey, you know what I can't do? Make, card stock or whatever. Know what I can do? Write something. Like, so you're the business, make the thing look the paper good. I can do that. I don't, I'm not a paper mill, but I'm, I could write a few words. That's easy. I don't need your jokes. I just imagined, like a A boardroom of assholes trying to come up with greeting cards.

0:01:46 Eli: Of uncles. It is just all unbearable uncles. Goals and that's there's two fucking sorry there's three genres of greeting card right there's unbearable uncle joke that if you give this to another adult they're gonna be like did you hit your head on the way over here or they're like do you think this is funny I thought I knew you man take the card and your gift and leave there's too much jesus right because you'll be like oh nice a graduation card it's got a little golden retriever and a graduation cap and it's like christ's blood blood anoints you and you're like, motherfucker. And then the other one is like words of love that you would never write to someone you romantically love, right? It's like your heart entwines with mine the way J-Lo and Biggie will always be my boo. And I'm like, who opened this car? How many people said, wow, that really resonates with me. And why are they all allowed to vote? That's my question oh

0:02:21 Thomas: That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

0:02:40 Tom: Well the other romantic card you can get for like your wife I found is always some version of our relationship sucks but thanks for sticking around the it's just like well you know we've had our ups and downs but baby and I'm just like what the fuck is that like

0:02:47 Eli: God those are the worst yes

0:02:51 Thomas: To be fair, that one. I feel like the market for that one is good. It's like shitty dudes that, like, don't ever do anything.

0:02:57 Eli: That's and I

0:03:00 Tom: Want a card for things haven't fallen apart yet and I love you, you're in trouble. Like, you've got basically nothing to pick from. That's it.

0:03:07 Eli: Social

0:03:04 Thomas: If you want a card that says the only reason we're still together is I he bought this card once. Yeah. This very card is holding the fabric of our shit relationship together.

0:03:12 Eli: Contract yeah fourth genre of I should kill myself but I'm not brave enough is 90% of cards right because it's also the birthday ones right it'll be like 50 more like I wish I was dead the void is better Better than this hell. Every morning I open my eyes to extreme disappointment. Happy anniversary. Or whatever the fuck it is.

0:03:32 Thomas: That'd be funny. Actually, Eli, I want you to make cards.

0:03:39 Tom: We should come up with dear old dad's greeting cards. Oh, these could be Patreon bonuses.

0:03:43 Eli: This table at Dear Old Dads is growing. We got honest gift cards. We've got rip into it t-shirts. We've got shock watches. You can try at home. This is great. We got a TikTok shop to set up and everything. But gentlemen, do you know the only thing worse than the normative sentiments that Hallmark has informed us we should have about our loved ones and family why it's the auto ads yes these age jokes and uncle puns of podcasting insert themselves obtrusively into your podcast but we can give you the sweet sweet blank matte paper you so desperately deserve of your podcasting experience for as little as a dollar over at patreon.com forward slash Dear Old Dads. You'll get an extended, commercial-free version of every show with a little parenting show at the end when Tom feels like it. We also have monthly bonus episodes.

0:04:34 Tom: Missed one. It's been 165 episodes.

0:04:37 Eli: 164 for you, Tom. Nice little...

0:04:42 Tom: Fuck me I missed 10 minutes out of 165 episodes and I will never live it down

0:04:55 Eli: 164. We'll see you at the 200th anniversary. When I miss a show and Thomas misses a show, you get to return back...

0:05:03 Tom: I didn't miss even this show I missed 10 minutes

0:05:08 Thomas: You and I need to unionize and we find a way to count the times when Eli mails it in and so if we count that's a good 24 minutes of each episode I'm

0:05:13 Eli: That oh all right that's fair uh you can get access to all of that over at patreon.com forward slash dear old dads rip into it we

0:05:21 Tom: It's okay. You.

0:05:29 Thomas: Not done on cards like I think we need to do a solid why is it that no look just business wise Tom why are there none like I get that it's like oh you can only find like a couple that are blank no why are they there are none there are None why isn't there a single business you and I need okay Tom we're starting a business we're gonna Eli no three Three of us actually, Eli can provide the ones that are really funny and suicidal and everyone's like, ha ha.

0:05:32 Tom: Didn't got more on cards.

0:05:33 Eli: Got more on karen I

0:05:43 Tom: None. There used to be plenty. Let's do it.

0:05:54 Thomas: And yeah, and then we I think the brilliant business thing to do would be to just make a really, really nice blank card that then becomes the standard for blank cards. You know, where you're like, oh yeah, if you're your wife is going to get someone else to tell your wife that she's great or whatever, cool. That's great. You suck. If you want to get something right, your feelings, you want to get your feelings to her. This you need this card. It's the perfect, nice looking blank card. New business idea. I get so so mad at this every time, every time.

0:05:54 Eli: Received the uncle jokes

0:06:12 Tom: Feel like this guy said I did. Do you do to solve it because I go online to amazon and I spend like 12 or 13 dollars for a fucking card because I refuse to buy anything at the goddamn like cvs or whatever that has bullshit written in it I won't do it I I won'

0:06:38 Thomas: Have a thing where I just cross out what's written in the card. Have you not done that? I literally I've done that with Lydia. Like I just I just black it out. I'm like, this is stupid. I did that one time. Time I was like, this is fucking dumb. But anyway.

0:06:44 Tom: I've just always just ordered something instead

0:06:53 Eli: The giraffe dressed as a corncob on the front doesn't make any sense thomas that's so much worse why is he dressed like a corn cob I don't know what's going on

0:06:57 Thomas: Man.

0:07:02 Tom: Oh god I used to buy because I thought it was funny and I still think it's funny I used to go to the store for like holidays and like birthdays and stuff and I would buy the wrong card for stuff I'd be like you know like bar mitzvah cards and send them out for people for christmas and stuff like that I just thought that shit was hilarious and I did this for like a few years and I can't tell you how many people didn't get it they would just open it up and be like this is the wrong card like it's not kwanzaa and I'd be like you don't fuck it it's funny it's that's the point is it and I was just like fine I one year the only year I ever sent christmas cards to family I walked around my house and I took pictures of random shit in my house and then I just wrote like life is suffering merry christmas and I sent them out

0:07:13 Eli: I do that yeah oh

0:07:44 Tom: And it would just be like a picture of a doorknob or something it was I thought it was hilarious I offended like Like everybody in my dad's extended family.

0:07:44 Thomas: That's good.

0:07:51 Tom: They were just so like, I dad got called me. He's like, aunt Diane got a Christmas card. That's like a picture of your dog's nose. And it says life is suffering, Mary. She doesn't understand. Why'd you send this? And I'm like, cause it's funny. And I am 23 years old. That's why I, like, I went through a lot of work for that. These were very expensive. I'd actually get prints taken. And he's like. Yeah, don't do that again. And I was like, all right, I'll never send a Christmas car to God.

0:08:13 Eli: Moment whereas a funny person existing in the universe of normies and the normie universe kind of they don't punish you right but they just go like we we prefer if you actually just did the thing and

0:08:24 Thomas: Just do I have 29 out of 30 cards I got that are all, hi, Merry Christmas. And if I don't have that 30th one, this is exactly the same as those. I'm going to shit myself. So

0:08:33 Eli: More lonely feeling. I would rather spend a thousand years floating in the vacuum of space than have someone turn to me and go, oh, it's a joke, one more time in my life. I was joking. Yeah, I was choking.

0:08:46 Tom: So fucking boring it's so boring I'm like god

0:08:50 Eli: I was choking. How about that weather we're having? It's the humidity. And

0:08:50 Tom: What then you have to be like yeah it's you know I was joking it's a thing you might know me for I do it literally constantly and then you're just like all right fine I we don't ever need to interact again

0:09:03 Eli: Especially, I'm going to say something as brave as it is vulnerable. There's this sad sack reaction that sometimes people do, right? Right? Where they'll be like, oh, Tommy. And you're like, relax! You're fine!

0:09:05 Tom: This is always good

0:09:16 Eli: I didn't kill your son and put his head on the credenza! You fucking cigar with my dog's nose on it! You're fin - Everyone acts like a shivering orphan in a doorway for a minute. Oh, I don't know that I wanted any jokes right

0:09:15 Tom: I know right

0:09:26 Thomas: Because of because of the 30th card being not quite like the other 29. You're just like, who fucking cares? I don'T read them anyway. I just throw them away right away. We've talked about this.

0:09:34 Tom: Like like oh a card that's I'm throwing that away that's don'T HAVE LIKE A FUCKING DRAWER FULL OF OLD CARDS AND SOMEBODY'S LIKE GOING THROUGH I'M LIKE I DON'T KNOW WHY I GOT THIS WEIRD CARD FROM TOM

0:09:49 Thomas: Funny. Okay. Kids birthdays, though. This is not the topic of the day but it is funny that we do this ritual of cards because the whole thing with the kids cards is the kid wants the present because duh and then we're like wait open this boring fucking piece of paper that doesn't matter first and show that you're an adult by valuing the boring paper no one cares about more than the like fucking race car that you want to just open and then they're like why because when you're you're an adult you also have to do that for no there's no actual reason

0:10:05 Eli: That you can't read. When you're an adult, you stop giving each other gifts. And there's just sort of a cold...

0:10:26 Thomas: But even when you do you have to pretend you care about the card my first on the thing it's like there's no additional reason it's just because we do that that's all

0:10:35 Tom: Well I DONT KNOW LIKE I DO LIKE the I kids to at least see who the gift is from before they you know into it it's just like you know who gave you this thing like just look around it's it's kind of like the first inklings of teaching people to be appreciative or polite it's like at least at least look around and see who sent it to you maybe I

0:10:48 Thomas: I know we could put a two from tag on it we don't need a whole card oh

0:10:54 Tom: That's it that's like I had to teach my kids to look at the to from tag too they're just like okay please just who gave I gave you the thing. Yeah, please.

0:10:59 Eli: So acknowledge the human acknowledge just

0:11:03 Tom: Just four

0:11:03 Eli: Make hard eye contact and you're good all right now rip it I

0:11:06 Tom: Seconds. I'm not asking for more than that.

0:11:08 Eli: Always Make a Mistake which is that I forget the card for kids because I know kids hate cards and they can't read all max's friends can't so I'll put it in the gift bag and then we get to the party and I see all the cards this happened literally yesterday and I'm like shit and then I grab it's always like the thickest grade sharpie right someone hands me a paintbrush dipped in dark red paint and I just have to scrawl to stevie from max on the outside of the bag like I'm boo radley trying to tell someone where the murderer was so I've called you together today uh I had some thoughts on apologies so for those of you who've been listening to the show for a while I hate apologies apologies between adults, right? Apologies between adults, 99% of the time is one of you is a psychopath who would like to do a tyrant's king dance about something that you've said or did, right, that's 99.99% of apologies I've ever given in my entire life, I hate them, and now that I'm free, I almost never do them, but we sort of talked about the notion of apologizing to your kids And I think I felt at the time, I wanted to re-listen to the episode, but I think I felt the time the same way, which is like, if my kid's gonna get it, the right? Same reason that, like, you don't need to apologize apologize to an adult who actually likes you, right, because the adult already gets it, so for them to make you go through the dance of the seven sorries is a weird psychosis,

0:11:25 Thomas: Great okay

0:12:32 Eli: And you should separate that person from your life, right. But, I have now come up against this situation, I thought I would report back, because I had my first, like And I'm not talking like you turn your hand and you accidentally whack him on the head. I mean that like I actually did something wrong in a way that Max would not understand and had to apologize to him for it. And I changed my tune quite a bit. So I wanted to sort of report back to you guys.

0:12:57 Thomas: Mean based on your description of what you just said like I don't I worry that you haven't changed but we'll see I was just gonna tell I

0:13:02 Tom: I'm now feeling like the tune is going to be that much different. Like.

0:13:05 Thomas: Was literally just gonna tell tom well guess we made no impact tom

0:13:09 Eli: I If you'd like to hear more, dance. Lydia's voice just cuts in. Uh no so here's the thing me and max every weekend we go to the science museum right we have a ton of fun that is that is a lot of the time the daddy son day right and we leave 9 30 right when it goes off we got our little traditions right we do a little call and response what do we do when we get there sit on the potty and I'm like fuck yeah so we get in the car we jump in I stop at dunkin I get myself six orders of hash browns and a nice mocha at a Dunkin Donuts drive-thru and Max yells a cookie like he's a starving child who's never been fed before and one out of four times I will be tricked into buying him a cookie and then he's like NO! Like just threw like it produced out of nowhere Anyways, we have fun So we run around we have such an amazing time in the museum but like many kids his age he's four he has a little bit of trouble leaving Right? Even when we do timers even when we sing the song even when we know what the agreement is even though he's headed somewhere fun because he goes right to the babysitter afterwards he has trouble with the transition and he had a really really tough time with the transition this past Saturday and so we're leaving and look I'm not going to say I yelled at him I obviously didn't yell at him I didn't raise my voice but as we were leaving I was trying to explain that that behavior was unacceptable and I said something along the lines of you know buddy if we're going to come here and every time it's time to leave you behave like that That you hit me and you scratch and stuff like that. We can't come back here anymore, right? And I saw that really affect him, right. And so we're riding in the car and he's being, I mean, my son's pretty quiet, but he's being extra quiet. And I realizing that what he has taken in is that was our last time

0:14:52 Eli: At the science museum and we're not going back, right, I'm like, hey, buddy, right because I'm trying to put a positive spin on it. It. I'm like, Hey buddy, like, know, I want you to know that like you were really good other than that thing at the end there. And I'm really proud of the way you share. So I'm picking up the things and the positive stuff. And I'm like I just so you know like we will go back to the science museum and he was like we not go back right because he is in the mindset of not going back and then we got to the babysitters and we dropped him off and I felt bad about it. I like texted in on my way home that night. I was like, hey, I put that in a weird punishy way and I didn't like it and so the next morning right I had this realization right the thing that I don't like about apologies right like me and thomas are hanging out right I'm like thomas more like squamous right than thomas because he's a fucking psychopath texts me later eli really didn't Like it when you said squamous and I am not allowed to text back you're an adult get over it so right I have to be okay like hey man I'm really sorry I said squamous when you wanted me to say thomas won't happen again right like I m fucking in the principal's office ready to be paddled right and then the person's like so okay bud or whatever the fuck they saying you're just like I resent your existence I hope you die right

0:16:07 Thomas: Actually I actually do need apology apology for you using me as that that example because that would never fucking happen

0:16:12 Eli: Tom I used Tom that was

0:16:13 Tom: All right, Squamish. Why don't you just shut your mouth, all right?

0:16:16 Thomas: Sure

0:16:16 Eli: A real incident that happened Thomas I'm just reporting to the people I got the squamous t -shirts made and everything

0:16:21 Thomas: There are plenty of things I think you should apologize for but that's not one of them a

0:16:26 Eli: You get one guy a couple thousand tweets about not having feet and all of a sudden he's got a song to sing the point is The point is, when you're doing this with an adult, the right, reason that that moment is hard for me is because you and the adult both know it's fine, right? Because if it's not fine, when doesn't text you back, hey, I didn't like Squamous, never they're see each other again. I'm Tom Curry, you're my ex -girlfriend, it's gone forever. Because I of people out of my life all the time, right. Because it's Not Okay, they do a thing that's Not okay, and I'm like, alright, well, see you never. Like and sometimes we that person's like hey I'd like to have further interactions about the thing I did and I'm like ah you got to get your time machine for that my man so like the thing is what I was realizing is like I was in a position where max was not going to call me out right max did not have the language or even the moral metric to say hey like were too harsh about that one you were Too harsh about that too you my language language understanding capacity is relatively limited. So when you say the big scary thing in like a fucking context

0:16:30 Thomas: Couple thousands that That day. God. Yeah.

0:17:35 Eli: Of like, this is how we expect people to behave. And this may one day be the consequence. Like, I don't get that. I just hear no more science museum, right? He's not going to call me out on that. And Right. It is my responsibility to model for him. Hey, that's not okay behavior. Right? That's a realization. And maybe you guys said it at the time, maybe Maybe you're saying it now and I'm just not listening. Doesn't matter. What matters is that I had the realization myself, right? It's I, the main character of the universe had the realization.

0:17:59 Tom: I love that it doesn't matter.

0:18:06 Eli: And what I realized is like you, I, I mean, when Tom chooses to be on an episode, occasionally I try to listen, but gosh,

0:18:07 Tom: I don't listen to what these fucking NPCs over here are babbling about.

0:18:14 Thomas: Well, I got good news for you, Eli. I'm looking at my dialogue menu and there is one fewer option there. So I think you did accomplish the quest. I don't. Yeah.

0:18:22 Eli: At that. Now I'm part of your guild and everything. It's great. So I realized like I have to model for him this his behavior. And I thought about Pete who's a comedian. He has this really amazing joke that he does about apologizing to his kid. And he's like, sometimes, you know, I'll be apologizing to my kid and I just wish I could take her through a portal to all the times my dad apologized to me. And it's just an empty void because it never fucking happened.

0:18:48 Eli: And I realized like have have to model that behavior for him I have to say that's not okay so the next morning like I sat him down we had a good time we have we has his breakfast he gets his screen time in the morning is his ipad which he's so fucking psyched for right and so ipad time ends and I was like hey buddy I want to talk to you for a second I talked to you about something he's like yeah and I Was like you know daddy the other day I was really upset when we left the museum and I said that you know if you kept doing that we wouldn't be able to go to the museum anymore and And that wasn't a fair thing of me to try and take away or to threaten to take away. Like, I want to apologize to you for that. That was not a thing daddy should have said to you, right? Daddy should have expressed that I was disappointed, but that was it, right. Then there could be consequences, but I'm not allowed to make that. And again, it's very high language, right, I'm not saying he wasn't sitting there being like, I'm taking notes, yes, absolutely. I agree, dad, you should have used I statements, right but he

0:19:38 Eli: Sort of pauses for a second and And I was like, I want you to know I have a lot of fun at the Science Museum with you. Like, I really love that we get to spend our weekends doing that. It really means a ton to me. And he goes, Tyrannosaurus Rex. And I'm like, yeah, we can go to the Tyrannosaurus Rex at the science museum. But it was a moment. I'm not saying that my son intellectually received what I was sending. I fool myself at that. But what I did is I established a dynamic by which I can be wrong and he can be right. And he can deserve those apologies he deserves the respect of those apologies from me

0:20:14 Thomas: You know and I want to just tell if max is listening in the future sometimes we leave little messages for our kids I just want to tell you max eli truly is giving you something he doesn't give any other person in the entire universe so you are just unique and loved and that is a sign of how much this psychopath values you

0:20:25 Eli: Truly that's right you're my little sweet treasure

0:20:34 Tom: I was thinking, Thomas, Squamous, I was thinking the same exact thing. Like like like everything you just described is all the same reasons that you would apologize to literally any other human being you loved and respected

0:20:48 Eli: Do you fucking hear yourself right well first of all love and respect other human beings fucking gay what oh you want to kiss him too these assholes so what did you guys want to talk about no so my question is as two gents who were I'm gonna say it in the cuck camp when it comes to apologies how do you handle apologies to your kids and and tom especially now that your kids are older how does that work

0:21:22 Thomas: Keep the cock cage under my clothes so that that just

0:21:25 Eli: Obviously yeah oh you don't let him put it on you as part of the apology yeah obviously

0:21:27 Thomas: I feel like that's a little age inappropriate eli come on at least a few few more years for that not

0:21:33 Tom: I, I mean, we've talked about, we talked about this before. I'm very comfortable with apologizing to the kids. I think, I to thekids is something that gives me a chance to show them that I am modeling how to handle, like, like I fuck up my modeling of behavior. Right. And anytime I sort of reflect back and I'm like, I shouldn't have done that. That was the wrong way to handle that situation. Like if I'm going to treat them like people and not just like a role in my life, you the goal is to eventually move them from a role and a responsibility to treating them fully as people, then like that's one of the things that I have to do. And I also want them to do that in turn. So I have to model when I make a mistake, how do I own it? How do I fix it? How do I show them that just like saying you're sorry is not enough for example Like I have then follow through not do the thing I've apologized for twice all

0:21:50 Thomas: Eli yeah

0:22:28 Eli: Ask

0:22:29 Tom: That kind of stuff Yeah, I I actually I I've apologize. I think at some point You to all of the kids. I mean I apologize to Aislinn once Aislinn has some issues with food and eating and they can be very very frustrating sometimes and I did lose my temper with her one time and I I up after I kind of like gathered myself and hayley and I talked about it and I went into a room and I was just like hey that was 100% on me that was my fault I'll never do that again you I'm know responsible to my temper and my emotions not to lose those things and and I have a responsibility to treat you better than that I'm sorry I've done that you know in very frank terms I think she was like like eight nine years old and think it goes a long way I think goes a really long way to apologize to your kids to really own your fuck -ups and apologize to them yeah

0:22:29 Eli: How I help and really think we are and I don't want to speak for everybody because I know some people had great parents but like I Really think we are the first generation to have the realization of like oh no you should treat your kids well all the time 100% of the time like you can get carried away you can make mistakes right Right. But like I think for our parents generation, it was like, well, you made me mad. So.

0:23:32 Tom: Yes yeah yeah 100 I that's super true I I think any time that that we lose our temper with our kids we owe them an apology every single time if you lose your temper you owe them apology regardless of what they did because what we're modeling when we don't do that where we're modeling is exactly what you said, which is it's your fault I'm emotionally dysregulated.

0:23:53 Tom: And that is unacceptable. So like any time, because I as the adult have the responsibility to always model emotional regulation. And if I make a mistake doing that, which is totally fair, like everyone's going to make a mistakes, right? We're all just people. But if I make a and any loss of temper any loss self -control is a mistake, we owe our kids an apology because if we don't do that the what message we're sending is it's okay and we're saying this is an okay way to handle conflict so in the future when you grow up and have conflict one acceptable way for you to handle it is to lose your emotional self -control

0:24:28 Eli: And Yeah. And I Think the exact opposite was modeled to us. Right? Was modeled To us was don't make mommy or daddy. Wow. You made me really mad just now. Right was the good version of the burden. Right. Right and of course the carry through of that often at the time was like well I hit you because I was so mad. Right Right. And I think there's obviously that's a spectrum. Right.

0:24:48 Thomas: There wasn't even acknowledgement of any wrong like know what I mean like I think even this is a little bit of a false paradigm of like oh how were they justifying it to themselves it's like no they didn't care like for a lot of them it wasn't it wasn'T a question of like you made me do that it was like oh good I hit you. That was the right thing to do in that situation.

0:25:06 Tom: Right well I will give my Dad an enormous amount of credit it always I mentioned this on the show before but I've never I my life seen my dad visibly lose his patience or his temper I've just never seen it he

0:25:18 Thomas: You guys need to check your fucking privilege.

0:25:23 Tom: Has an unbelievable amount of emotional self -control like more than I've seen in in any person I know from talking to him like later that like we've been through things as a family like anybody else where like he's been right at the fucking edge you know right at the fucking age but at no point did I ever see him lose his self -control his emotional self -control and that was such a big deal for me I

0:25:46 Eli: He came back to the honeymoon suite and found your mom with that snapping turtle, that was that was tough for him.

0:25:49 Tom: Can't so much to the point that I can'T imagine what he would even look like losing his temper or losing his emotional self -controlled just something so like my dad was really good about modeling that for for me. And I think that's helped me in my life do an okay -ish job of that.

0:25:56 Thomas: Jesus. Yeah, if hell I'm is I've had the worst possible modeling on this and inside I'm the softest fucking bad about doing this all the time. I'm into hell because what happens with me is I have this thing called Remy that I need to put in your guys' houses as a prank sometimes because there's actually no way to deal with it. It's the hardest thing I've ever dealt with. Remy, I'm very, very worried about Remy long -term because of what he's doing. I hope he snaps out of it, but I won't go into it too deep. Than Otherwise, to say, imagine someone screaming at you every 13 seconds because there is another object in the room or food that they want and they're going to die if they don't have it. Like, how tiresome that would get. You could go through that for 20 minutes as a goof and be like, oh yeah, that sucked day in, day out. If there's no respite from it, it's all day. And so I get on edge and I raise my voice a bit like, well, I say a bit, one time is more than I want to. I raised my voice in the course of a, you know, a long ass day of this. The weekends are the fucking worst. I raise My my voice five times and I don't even know how much it is because it's not like because of my bullshit family where we just yelled at each other all day my I go back into my like you with that real quick and

0:27:23 Thomas: I'm like stop doing that you know it'll be it's not much but for these poor little tiny kids like obviously they're like not huge fans of it and it's funny I'm the other side of the three bears I'm juste apologizing every other sentence. It's just like, Oh shit. Sorry. God damn it. I didn't mean to raise my voice there. It's Just, you see, I have this, um, fire alarm yelling at me every, every three seconds. God, it's, the it's worst. So anyway, that's the hell I live in and it's important though. Like I do, never, to the best of my ability, I'm never letting one of those and I'm exaggerating. It's not, you know, but I, I, never let one of them go unsaid. Like the minute I'm like, Like, oh, I want to acknowledge that like that isn't, to your point, Tom, it isn't about some like self -flagellation thing. I really do think that's the important thing, Tom. I think you've hit on it, modeling that I be limited, me personally, in how well I can handle this awful yelling that's happening all day at me. Like I may not be the best. I'm not your dad. Like I'm no, I know I have to tell you this all the time, Tom I'm, not your, no, no

0:27:42 Eli: Eardrum.

0:28:24 Thomas: I'm not Tom's dad.

0:28:24 Tom: It's weird that you ground me so often then. That's very, very odd.

0:28:27 Thomas: Well, if you look at our company bylaws, I still have the right to do that. I'm just not your dad, as I tell you.

0:28:31 Eli: That's true. Yeah.

0:28:30 Tom: I should have read those. I should've read those more carefully.

0:28:32 Eli: He was grounded. That's why he missed the end of that one episode. Everybody tried to tell you.

0:28:36 Thomas: And to ground his ass after that, let me tell you, um, I, you know, I don't think I'm the best at handling that. I'm doing the best I can. I am trying really hard, but I think I get impatient more than I should. But I do think that while it doesn't just make it instantly okay to apologize, like I do you still worry like crap? Am is this still too much unpleasantness for my kids? You know, I just worry. I don't, I don'T know. I worry about a lot of things, but sorry, do think it's qualitatively different to, for them to have the experience of, well, yeah, I think my dad maybe got a little too frustrated a lot, but he definitely didn't like that. He did that versus what would be the worst thing, which our parents did to us, a lot of us, which is, oh no, they're mad and it's fine. And now I've normalized that it's good that they're bad and that's what should happen. And that, like, I think that makes an enormous difference.

0:29:24 Tom: It does because it creates this environment of fear, right? Like if you are always, if your parent is the person that's like oh man like if I am afraid to make them mad like I was like was very calm but like I did grow up with some insecurity around my like living situation just because like I had some abandonment shit from my mom right so probably wasn't a result of my dad's behavior but like I think it did have an impact on like my feelings of security and I also like had a lot of different babysitters like and shit like growing up when my dad was at work who all sort of treated kids differently so like every five minutes I felt like there was a different set of like rules and you know reactions to rules and breaking the rules and that kind of stuff so like you live when you don't have that apologizing when you don't have that sort of like parental self-reflection you live with that sense Eli that you were describing which is you're like oh man I don't want to make somebody mad because

0:29:28 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Oh,

0:30:17 Tom: If I make somebody mad that's on me it's not on them for losing control I've done the wrong thing I've behaved in a way that's like inexcusable and then you're like walking around on fucking eggshells all the time and that's a really insecure place for your kids to be in like they should feel like they can make mistakes and that they'll be embraced and loved and taught through those mistakes rather than they can make mistakes. And then there'll be fucking lambasted and treated as like the guy who set the fuse alight.

0:30:47 Thomas: Hundred percent. My dad was brilliant at never breaking character. He was that like other people's dads had the like, oh, they got mad, but then they'd get the apology. When I witnessed that the couple times I was confused I was like what the fuck so your dad's just an actor then he's not because my dad is he never fucking broke character it at any time there was the threat of him being incredibly mad and there wasn't ever a time where ah got a little too mild, carried it, no, it was like a hundred percent of all the time that's that was that fear that we lived under and there was no let up from it at all I mean there were there were times that were better but it wasn't like, oh, okay, that meant that the other thing was okay. It was like, okay. I guess we got to a better time. You know what I mean?

0:31:25 Eli: And it berbiglia was talking about this the other day is just like for our generation dads were just these monsters roaming this I not a single dad in in my suburban growing up except for my own who I wasn't scared of right who it wasn't like oh oh shit, it's Mike's dad, Mike's dad is coming home. Like, I cannot imagine I would give several appendages for none of my son's friends to ever feel about me the way I felt about all of my friend's dads. 100 %

0:32:07 Thomas: Dude, and you had it lucky. They were probably fucking accountants or some shit. I lived in a country where the other dads were like murderers.

0:32:08 Eli: Of them were snakes.

0:32:14 Thomas: Yeah. They're like fucking farmers. And you know how scary farmer dads are? Jesus Christ. Terrifying.

0:32:23 Tom: They come out of the cave in the backyard. Covered in the blood of their enemies. Whatever.

0:32:27 Thomas: Well, like literally like when the dad is coming home from work and they're like actually dirty from their job as a kid. That's more scary. They do physical hard labor. That was all my friend's dad. Yeah, there wasn't. But I didn't even need that because I was already the always afraid of my dad anyway. So, you know, there wasn't like a sense of, oh, well, maybe I could try something with this dad.

0:32:49 Eli: Yeah. And I will say, now that I'm on the other side of the spectrum, first because of all all the kids love my wife because she comes and plays music and we'll just start music and she plays with kids constantly like when kids are playing Anna joins in I will look around a group of adults when kids are playing and I'll be like where did Anna and then I look in the ball pit and my wife is like up to her neck and balls and she's like I'm the submarine and I'm like yes you are my darling yes you fucking are but like watching how comfortable other kids are with me you know I had this moment the other day and I remember talking to you guys about it like uh one one of max's friends was like eating a snack and we're all hanging out we're doing this cookout and one of them just comes and like puts themselves on my lap right that is so fucking foreign to what I grew up but that would be a punishment right they would be like you have to go sit on mr smenderson's lap for six minutes because

0:33:37 Eli: You killed that old lady with your car

0:33:37 Tom: Hey when when sitting on some stranger's lap. Is a punishment. That's a different way of growing up.

0:33:44 Eli: Just a different world it's a a different better one. And to go back to what you were talking about, Thomas, like, I think the fact that you're doing that work, even when you don't necessarily always like when it's not perfect. Right. And that you're aware of it and that you're doing that work. I think that in many ways matters more than the being perfect. Because you are modeling what to do when you fuck up and the kids to know what to DO when they fuck up, not when everything goes great. Right

0:34:11 Thomas: You just remind me of something, Eli, because for as much as I'm, you talking about me having a little bit of a hard time after Remy yells at me for all day, has the worst temper in the world. Like something going on. She goes from zero to 11. I'm actually scared of her. Like I'm actually talking about the dads, like she's scarier than any dad. And when Remy so much as like touches her things and she, you know, screams at him in a way that's definitely not okay, it's interesting because the dynamic is, like trying, hey, to help her, you work through that, hey be nice to your brother, he doesn't, you know, he's a baby, you gotta help your big sis, but then there's also the times where I'm getting a little too frustrated and then Phoebe's like, hey it's just a baby and I'm like, yeah, no, that's good, you can call me out too, if I'm calling out you for, you you know, when Remy like touches you and you scream at him, you can call me out for after he screamed at me 400 times and I accidentally say, hey, stop doing that a little too loud. Yeah, you but could. Ironically, though, like I actually appreciate

0:35:06 Thomas: That. Then we're both like each other try to keep each other in check in a way that I actually think is healthy because it helps us both to be in those both positions of you're witnessing it and you're part of it and seeing like, oh yeah, that's not cool.

0:35:20 Eli: Again no because we grew up with not that relationship but that's our family relationships are supposed to be you catch me when I slip and I catch collect you we grew open this one-way street where we were like you know playing a stealth game with our parents race just diving in an hour of right Right. Un.

0:35:33 Thomas: Kim Kim Jong fucking Un. If I told my dad, hey, you shouldn't, it was already over. Like there's no, I can't even imagine that. You're so right.

0:35:36 Tom: You know, thing to be aware of, too, though, and I can already see that we'll get email or comments about this, though. Is I think there's the other side of apologizing, which you should be careful of. And nobody on this call, I don't think nobody on the show, but like there.

0:35:53 Eli: Never worried about whatever it is you're about to say.

0:35:56 Tom: No, no, are. There's there are those people who will use apologies as a sort of post hoc excuse for behavior. They have no intention of correcting. And that is that super true of a lot of parents where they behave in really shitty, repetitive, toxic ways. And they're just like, yeah, sorry. You know, I'm really sorry. And the apology in in my view, like an apology is only genuine if you both mean it and are working to correct the behavior. Right? Right. You cannot mean the apology and not work to correct the behavior or it's not a genuine apology.

0:36:27 Eli: How dare you, Tom?

0:36:29 Thomas: It's okay, Eli. Well, when you get your first real apology, we'll throw a party.

0:36:32 Eli: Thank you.

0:36:33 Thomas: It'll be fine.

0:36:35 Eli: Guess I'll let you guys know. Mean it. Jesus. Do you want, Whitman?

0:36:38 Tom: But you're certainly Thomas, like what you're describing is an attempt to like really correct and be aware of, you know, like the ways that like sometimes you get emotionally overloaded. I think that that's totally fair. I think what I'm describing, though, is like the people who have no intention of correcting their behavior right using the apology as a way to continue their behavior.

0:36:57 Thomas: Absolutely. And And it's hard, too, because the kinds of stuff that they're going to do because they're that kind of shitty person is already so much worse. Like, again, I I kids are so sensitive that this is just me raising my voice slightly, but they get really sensitive to it. And so I don't like it. Like, I don't like that. Sometimes it startles them. And so what I do is along those lines, Tom, I tending to focus on just like the reaction wasn't, know wasn't appropriate it's not like oh hey the thing you did okay okay and I was unreasonable for even caring it's more often the thing that's happening is yep remy yes he did just uh our car but yeah I shouldn't have raised my voice that many decibels so I do think it's one of those things where it's like the problem with people who do that they're also doing way worse worst things you know like it's they're not they're obviously that kind of person so it's like you comes first the chicken or the egg I don't know but I you're totally right like it can't be an excuse to keep doing the wrong thing but at the same time it also can't be something that lets them off the hook if they've done something shitty you

0:37:32 Eli: Tear a hunk out of my flesh. Scream so loud.

0:38:01 Thomas: Know and and your reaction was maybe a little bit too harsh on that thing yeah

0:38:05 Eli: Something that I see quite a bit along the lines of what tom is talking about is the person who apologizes so that now it's over right like well now I've apologized so we made up and we don't have to talk about the thing I did right and it's funny I see this tendency a lot with our parents generation like a lot of my friends have like toxic parents or a toxic parent in their their life who they need to get rid of um like that is something that I'm thinking one friend in specific like something he is dealing with with his dad is that his dad will just behave in the absolute worst way and then he'll do like a commit you know I love you don't you you know I love ya and that is supposed to be like his way of ending the conversation um

0:38:43 Thomas: But yeah and but it's not an apology yeah

0:38:50 Eli: And it's not and yeah it's exactly what tom said right if If you have no intention to change the behavior, it's not a real apology, which is why I've never given one. So if you think about it, it is. I'm actually the best guy. Have you thought about it? Have you taught him?

0:39:00 Thomas: Can can I tell you though the you know I love you don't you is still 40 steps higher than what I got from my dad like it's funny that that like unironically that is still better than nothing like if you get the just no awful

0:39:17 Eli: Thomas's dad was like, you know, I hate you, don't you?

0:39:20 Thomas: Just silence yeah I just can't and it's like at least people had that that's nice that you folks might have had that like some softness ever uh when it comes to that thing but it is funny like that is better than nothing but it's also not as that also is still I want to keep doing this but I do actually know that it's probably wrong and I feel bad but not enough to overcome my ego of like you my behavior like I I do think that's it's like both a step above what I got but also still shitty yeah

0:39:21 Tom: When it falls into that, like there's that there's sort of like the preemptive and the post hoc. I'm an asshole. What did you expect? Sort of thing like, you know, you've met this guy before. Right. Where they're just like, hey, I told you I was like this. And then that is my preemptative excuse to be like this, right? And the postdoc version of that is, come here. You know, I love you. Yeah, I didn't mean anything by it as somebody as the kid is sniffling and crying and they've been, you treated or the subject of somebody's fucking wrath for the 12th time. And you're like, yeah, you did like you have no intention of trying to be or do better. Like is something that I think our generation absolutely dealt with a lot, which was you either had to behave like, you know, setting somebody off was your problem and not their fault. Right. Like it was always something you did. Or, you they're know, apologizing for it, but you're like, yeah, but you're going to behave exactly the same way again next time. And your version of an apology is, you made me hit you, you and it's like, holy shit, what the fuck is this? This is all the worst.

0:40:58 Eli: We go I started a dating website for chickens it's not my regular day job I just do it to help make hens meat queer

0:41:12 Thomas: It's only for lesbian it's a it's a gay dating site for chickens but only lesbian like there you can't two roosters can't meet on there then okay I just want to know that's interesting business

0:41:24 Eli: No roosters allowed you just want to know the rules yes

0:41:27 Thomas: Idea okay yeah oh

0:41:34 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads .com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILf, tom smith who also wrote and recorded the intro music which is used with his permission this podcast is a production of daddy issues llc copyright 2022 all rights reserved

0:42:14 Thomas: The thing look the paper good. I

0:42:16 Eli: About that weather we're having? It's the humidity. Two gents who were I'm gonna say it in the cuck camp when it comes to apologies how