DOD131: Hey Kid, Here's Some Shitty Lemons

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad. That's my thing. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can. Complete and utter dependence. I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired.

0:00:22 Clip: Telling is the only part of being a father that I enjoy.

0:00:29 Tom: Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's bracing for the worst. I'm Tom Curry. I've joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen. You try writing something given this topic.

0:00:35 Thomas: Christ that was a that was was a hate crime dude I'll be suing tom to

0:00:42 Eli: Subtlety

0:00:44 Tom: Turn it structure of the intro does does not lend itself well to serious topics. I just want to say, yeah,

0:00:49 Thomas: To not hate crimes yeah

0:00:50 Eli: Understand it look Thomas is just mad Tom you have to understand Thomas is mad because he's not a dad anymore he's not a man and he's actually human because we've sadly had to announce Thomas has stopped mowing his own lawn and that's what makes you a dad that's what makes you dad so um I

0:01:06 Thomas: True it's true yeah that's why eli hasn't been one for a while

0:01:09 Tom: It. Yeah. Do you still have the Crocs, though? Tell me you still has Crocs.

0:01:10 Thomas: Oh I still have the crocs I still love the crocs well you'll be pleased to know so I I let the boys in on my my personal shame that I finally have realized that I'm not in fact ever going to get to it if that's not going to happen even though though I say I'm going to get to it, whatever it is, it doesn't matter what it is. I'm going to do it. There'll always be a time when I'm not as busy. And when it comes to the yard, um, became like a jungle out there. Like it's really like it's, it gives like Tom's house growing up vibes, you know, like Tom, his mom could live out there or something.

0:01:13 Tom: Woo!

0:01:38 Eli: The snapping turtle drops by and he's like I know a co-worker of yours and you're like oh I would love to man I just you

0:01:43 Thomas: And, uh, I finally told Lydia, I was like, I'm hire people. I can't do it I've sucks. I I actually, I enjoy yard work. I've I've got so many fun tools that I do yard work with over the years. It's fun. And not only do I have the Crocs, I upgraded to thick ass rubber boots so that I was just out there weed eating, you know, just to fucking having a good time. I just never have time anymore. And it sucks because the kids have been wanting to actually, they've been wanting to practice baseball with me out there. And I'm like, oh, we can't because it's certain death.

0:02:13 Tom: If the the ball hits the ground, you'll never see it again.

0:02:15 Eli: Never see it again they're thinking one of the snakes will get you

0:02:16 Tom: I mean, Arlo would just get eaten by fucking tigers or whatever is living back there.

0:02:21 Eli: He is leopard meat and I I'm not afraid to say that about other people's kids how edible they are by lab boards so

0:02:27 Thomas: And so, yeah, we're just going to, but I'll

0:02:29 Eli: Thomas is retiring from the show or we're gonna rename it we've considered renaming it dear old dad's and also So Thomas, who needs other men to come and clear the brush from his property, his land is their land.

0:02:44 Thomas: I'm not a manly man like Eli anymore. I'm out there till in the land.

0:02:47 Eli: It's not about manhood, Thomas. It's about personhood. It's a about humanity. You voting, right? We talked about this. You're not allowed to vote in any more elections. That's super important to me.

0:02:58 Thomas: Man. Yeah.

0:02:59 Tom: I spent all the years of my first two three houses mowing and and now no like at this house no never I'll never I don't want to own a lawnmower I don'T want to own a weed whacker or a hedge trimmer I don't want to do any I discovered that I fucking hate that kind of work like so kudos to you for not like loathing it I I don't understand that at all. I think it's misery.

0:03:22 Thomas: That's a thing from my upbringing child, that I have a hard time. I have an hard time accepting that I don't just do that kind of work. There's still part of me that thinks like, yeah, that's what you do as a homeowner. And you I guess I'm, I just have to let it go. I have to let it come again.

0:03:36 Tom: Fucking hate that.

0:03:36 Eli: To let it go.

0:03:36 Tom: I cannot stand work that like you do it and everything looks nice and then you have to do that all over again.

0:03:41 Eli: And then time fucking kicks it around. Yeah, it's the best.

0:03:45 Thomas: No one told me about time. That was the thing I didn't know about. That's a secret. Cause it, that boy, is that true?

0:03:50 Tom: Was super excited to do that work the first time. Like the first Time, like I got a house and I'm like, I made my house like the outside of it looked all nice. And I like kind of, you know, sweat of the brow and I stood back and I am dirty and tired and disheveled. But, you know, I had felt this like sense of pride in my work. And then I went inside and had a glass of tea and I came outside and everything was overgrown. It was 100 percent dandelions.

0:04:09 Eli: The same again yeah mm

0:04:11 Tom: And it looked like I had done nothing. And I was like, oh, no, this is just drudgery. This is just druggery.

0:04:13 Eli: When you're standing out there with the weed whacker for the first time you hear Carly Rae Jepsen be like let's go girls like you're fucking ready to go but then time destroys all day it's actually a great metaphor for death and the fear of death because and we all know this like most people they're like ah this is kind of a drag I I guess I'll just move on for life. But some people get religious about their grass, right? They're like, no, no. It will be perfect and I won't die. I won'T die. Grandma's in heaven with Jesus and I'm going to mow my lawn twice a week. And you're just like, all right, man. It seems like a waste of my tax dollars. But I guess if you're going to know your lawn twice, a week,

0:04:23 Thomas: It's real manly work.

0:04:53 Tom: It It feels like not hiring somebody to push that boulder up the hill

0:04:57 Eli: Right.

0:04:57 Tom: If you can. You know what I mean? It's just like that boulders just always coming back down the hill. Like, if I can get a guy to do it, I'll be like, yeah, man, nice boulder.

0:04:59 Eli: Oh my God.

0:04:58 Thomas: Yeah, you got a boulder guy. Awesome. Who's your boulder guy

0:05:05 Eli: I wish we had doodly do's on this show so that we could doodley do over over to Thomas Sisyphus just being like, no, no, it's not that bad. Honestly, I'm just tired. I'm honestly just tired, it has been a crazy week, but once I get the boulder to the top of the hill, it's going to be so much better.

0:05:19 Tom: It's cathartic. It's nice out here. I put in some headphones.

0:05:14 Thomas: I'll get to it I like doing the boulder it's uh part of yeah look I'm a boulder owner I gotta do my own boulder otherwise why do I even own a bouldering yeah

0:05:26 Tom: Fuck yard work.

0:05:26 Eli: But you know the only thing worse than the eternal punishment of being Thomas Smith? Why, it is the auto-ads, the auto ads.

0:05:31 Thomas: Maybe it's a close call so

0:05:34 Eli: Invading your consciousness, interrupting our japes and laughter, but you can make all of that go away. Yes, with a single click of a button. I mean, it's probably a few buttons. But with a couple of clicks of buttons, you can go to patreon.com forward slash dear old dads. Give us as little as a dollar a show and you'll get a commercial-free extended version of every single show. Plus a little parenting story at the end of every episode when Tom decides to show up. And we've got bonus episodes. We do AMAs. We got a hot, fresh, piping, only couple weeks old AMA waiting for you in the bonus section right now. So check all of that out over at patreon.com forward slash dear old dads.

0:06:19 Thomas: Uh I want to put some context to Tom's hate crime earlier no this is something I've been wanting to talk about for a while it's actually it's it's honestly it's It's a little bit hard for me to talk about kind of sucks, but I really need to, I really need, I also might need some guidance from you guys and the audience because, uh, I think I've mentioned it or, uh you know, people might vaguely know, but I, uh I have scoliosis and it's, uh not horrible, not surgery level, but it's about as close to as bad as you can get before they start doing stuff, you know Now, before they start being like, well, we can take this part of your back and we can put it over there.

0:06:54 Thomas: And then we, yeah, an engineer, really like, it's so it's always been the worst and I've hated it and it sucked and discovered ever since eighth grade, I think it was, they did the screening back then. I don't know if they do it any differently now, but hard

0:06:54 Eli: They assign you to a scientist to help out. Yeah, right. Yeah, he

0:07:09 Tom: You're in pain all the time, right? Like, your back, it's not just, an you're actual pain from your back. Right?

0:07:13 Thomas: To know how much of it to allot to that too, you know, but some of it, yeah, definitely some of it. I can't like sleep like, on my others. I have like one side I can like turn my head on and can't the other. So I don't know. I, I definitely am back pain mostly because of just working at a computer for 27 hours of the day. I actually found three extra hours to sit at a compute at during. No, it sucks. It's not fun. And I mainly, the, the pain part I can deal with, and I think it's more or less not that bad. It's It's the kind of just the feeling part of it that's been terrible my whole life. I really hate it. And sorry, the feeling like you have a fucking hunchback and you're a freak.

0:07:32 Eli: Did. Yeah. Sorry. The feeling, but not the what is there? Is there a separate feeling? Self.

0:07:52 Thomas: Sorry. Yeah. Feelings like feelings. Yeah.

0:07:53 Eli: Yeah. Yeah. The self -image part. I

0:07:55 Thomas: Sorry.

0:07:56 Eli: Thought you were, it's not the pain. It's that other thing. Oh shit. That's pain. Isn't it? God damn it.

0:08:00 Thomas: It's nerves. No, not that. Yeah. No, it's that part of It's it being. Being it's the feeling constantly like it's noticeable which it is and just not being able to get like just it's funny the things I'm sure that we have so many people I'm sure have different things like this but the things you don't realize unless you have them like just having a flat back to me is like like people are so lucky who just get to have a normal back I can even tell you

0:08:05 Eli: Doesn't hate his ex -wife. He feelings her.

0:08:28 Eli: Those are your cum gutters. Like you see guys with the cum guters and we're like, oh no, dude, look at that dude's spine. And we're Like, all right, this is weird.

0:08:32 Thomas: I know but but it's like, it's also so unearned. Like nobody appreciates they're perfectly not fucking messed up back.

0:08:41 Eli: Thomas can't watch doggy style porn. Cause he's like, I'm sorry. The spine is just so distracting it's just like perfect I'm

0:08:46 Thomas: But so I've always, um, don't know. It's just something when something like that, that's always on your mind. I feel like I, I, since I've had kids, I kind of just like, I don't know. I think I notice it a little more and I've just kind of kept an eye out, even just subconsciously, I think. And the other month I just noticed Phoebe had a little thing I was like, well, that, okay, that's exactly the scoliosis that I have, but that's too early. She's, you know, six. And I didn't think it was even really possible to get it at six. I didn't, I've never looked it up really. Cause mine came on a little bit later. And my understanding was, it was more once you start like, you Know, that kind of, uh, those growth spurts later on. But I, I was, like, okay. You know, I'll kind of keep an eye. It's probably just me. It probably just her, you Now, who knows? She's a tiny kid. Maybe I'm, you, too paranoid. Maybe I'm paying too much attention to like little imperfections. You know, I started getting in my head about that. And then like a little while later, I was like, oh, no, this is this looks actually like something. And it's something I'm attuned to, I just, you I noticed it and I I don'T know if Lydia ever would have noticed. And I finally was like we need to make an appointment. And I was really hoping that I was just being too sensitive. Like, I really wanted the doctor to tell me, hey, are you some sort of eugenicist. Like you're that worried about like the

0:09:59 Thomas: Tiny, yeah.

0:09:59 Eli: Not checking your kid's skull dimples man I don't stop emailing me these 1800s charts and

0:10:02 Thomas: Yeah. I was really like, yeah, did you see this research, doc? It's like, that's from 1910. Like that's not, um, I really was hoping it would be, you know, I was just hoping it'd be like, you're an asshole, dude. Are you really critiquing your daughter's back at six years old? I was, I hoping that was it, but

0:10:20 Eli: Thomas can I give you the feedback I think you shouldn't have introduced it as I'm worried about her being unfuckable that was really I think that's just what the sort of doctor came at it from the wrong angle oh

0:10:30 Thomas: Yeah, that started a whole new set of legal issues I have, unfortunately no um yeah so yeah not again ah beans um yeah no sure enough it's it's

0:10:35 Eli: But you can do that you can could do that because it takes so long for crimes exactly

0:10:44 Thomas: Even worse than I thought actually so it turns out she does have the scoliosis and it's quite a bit it's Quite a bit worse than I would have even thought and it was like that god so that that was a rough day because I just have this feeling that that like know those things that you are hoping you don't pass on to your kids like I think Eli and I are probably like this with a lot of mental health stuff where it's like somehow I'm gonna like fix this I'm gonna I'm going to fix all this and that's also not true but you know you hope it's true but when it was something like this it just felt like especially her being six like it's just she's so tiny and she's already just like fucked up because of whatever genetics I have that do that and it's like so sad

0:11:20 Eli: It feels it feels like watching your sports team lose right like you know you're not making them miss the kick or make the kick right you are still bending your entire body in hopes of moving a football through the air

0:11:26 Thomas: It's exactly that the same I would say it's that but like a you know slightly more serious than that if I had to had to say but uh but yeah no it's rough because it just feels like this thing did nothing to deserve any of this you know and you're just like fucking a and it'S been rough and and we've you through the appointments you know everything takes forever and in my mind it's ticking because the clock is ticking because I know that she has to get a back brace immediately to stop this. Um, and hopefully if we have her where, uh, no,

0:12:01 Tom: Is she in any pain or discomfort at this time like is she hurting at all now

0:12:05 Thomas: No, she wouldn'T. Kids are rubber. They don't even, yeah.

0:12:06 Tom: Good well I don't know I mean like that's good okay good all right so it's not Not hurting her yet.

0:12:10 Thomas: It's good. I wasn't saying it was a stupid question. I just was, was saying no, fortunately she, she's, not having to deal with that. She has a, you know, we did the x-rays, we did the whatever and the healthcare care system just takes for fucking ever, even, you even on a good day. And so it's the kind of thing where it's bad enough that she has to wear a brace 22 hours a day for 10 years, basically. Like that's what her life is now. And it's like, cool. So that's just her life. She's just got born into this. Every other kid gets to do a normal thing. And then she has to do that for 10 fucking years. She has to wearing a brace and go through this. And it's really, it's hard. It's been something I've been wanting to talk about, but it's also like, I have a lot of, obviously just like I'm upset and I'm angry about it. And at the same time, I think what I really, what I'm struggling with that maybe you guys can help me with is every interaction I have with her about this is going to be a lie. And that's the part I don't know how to deal with. Like don'T know, maybe Eli, maybe you're more comfortable lying to your kid. I don't know. That might be your deal. But so

0:13:09 Tom: Well, what do you mean by that? What do you mean by every interaction is going to be a lie?

0:13:12 Thomas: I am not able to say things to her like, oh, it's no big deal. Oh, it is nobody is going to notice. Oh it is fine. It is totally cool. Great. No, I can't do anything like that. Like Lydia, fortunately probably Lydia can. She can tell all those lies. But like if I open my mouth in a way that is at all me, which is I I can't just help but say what I think the truth is. It's going to be, yeah, no, this fucking blows. This is the worst. You're going to hate it your whole life. You're gonna feel like a freak forever. It sucks. I don't know what to tell you. You know, like I, so how you, do you guys have anything like that with your kids where it's like, I don't think I can ever open my mouth about this because that's just going to be too difficult, you know?

0:13:54 Tom: I think that that you're that's already at the answer. I mean, I really do. I think like you just don't opine on it. Like, I think there's a lot of things with our kids that they're going to go through that we're like in the back of our head, we're Like, that's going to me rough for you. That is not good for you. I can sympathize with that deeply, but that's a shut your mouth. That's a lie by omission. If you can figure out how to do it by omission, if you can make yourself do it by omission, but I think we have an obligation to our kids to not catastrophize with them or for them or alongside of them. That's not healthy or useful for kids. So I think an obligation to them not to minimize, but also not to join in that catastrophizing or to pre -catastrophize for them. And so a lot of that is just like keeping quiet about what we in the back of our heads think or feel we know about a situation to be true in order for them to sort of, in order to support them in their own feelings and their own conclusions, right? Because it's going to be their experience. And can you do that? Can you do the omission part no

0:14:59 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, going to be what I'm doing. But like, I think another component of it is as she gets older and is more aware of this, I think there may be a sense in which she knows I'm the one who's this comes from and has dealt with it. And it's going to be interesting. Like, this isn't something Lydia can talk from experience to her about at all. And I don't know. I just don't Know what she's going To look for from me. Know And that obviously she will reach an age where that doesn't work. Like, she'll reach an Age where she'll know I'm full of shit. Like not already, honestly, she'll know that me kind of not saying something means she'll know what I'm thinking. Like, you know what? I mean, like there's no, I don't know.

0:15:34 Tom: I guess I'm not, I'm not, I'm being obtuse like I'm genuinely not following like like I think your job in that scenario like whether it's something we passed on to our kids or something that they go through is really more to like empathize with them like empathy doesn't mean platitudes and like telling people it's going to be okay like I don't there's lots of shit that happens in our kids lives and people he loves lives where you you can't look at him be like yeah it's gonna be all right because they They know it's not going to be all right. You know, it's not going to be all right, but we can still just be there and empathize with them. And I think that's useful.

0:16:05 Thomas: Let me, let me add something to it. Maybe, maybe a thing to add to this that I, no, no. No. Um, a thing that, that might make this make more sense is in some ways, I think it's, it's really good. It sucks for the purposes of how, young she has to deal with this in some ways. But in other ways, the fact that she's so young means like she can kind of get used to what this is going to be and it can be part of her identity.

0:16:08 Tom: Maybe I'm not understanding though. Right.

0:16:27 Thomas: And so I think it's vital that I shut the fuck up and say nothing about what I think or feel about this, because I think what can probably happen, hopefully, is that she is young enough that she can form her own feelings about this that I think will actually be way healthier than what I've gone through. When you find out about something like this when you're you it's like the worst possible age couldn't be worse and as it gets worse in high school you know like formative years of wanting to not feel self -conscious about stuff um I think she may form an entire different relationship to it and so I Think it's really key that I just don't mess that up you know what I mean like I

0:17:07 Eli: Well and I think you're spot on the money there thomas us because one of the ways that I do comfort myself with brain stuff right when I think about stuff like Max's disability and Max's ASD which I obviously worry about in a very similar way right I want him to have an easy life I want all parts of it to be fine and I know there are parts that won't be is helpful reminder for me that is genuinely true it's not just a pleasant lie is that she will be a kid growing up with scoliosis in a vastly different family and society than you were right if you had a cast on when we were kids everyone was just like ah fucking cast guy there he is cast guy we're gonna call you cast cap kevin for you know the next 18 years of your life right like bullying and teasing and all the stuff that made all of our stuff so so much harder when we were younger is so much better now. Medicine is better now, but, and this, this is what I really want to emphasize is like Phoebe is also growing up in such a much more supportive and loving family that will be there for her and help her develop healthy ideas around what's going on for her body in a way that your family was definitely not for you. Right. If anything, it was harmful. Right. Think you don't have to worry about being, quote unquote, honest with her about the experience because her experience will be vastly different than yours.

0:18:33 Thomas: Don't know I I know one thing I should have said is they're a single person in school ever said anything about this to me so it's I didn't it's shitty as our childhoods were in many ways either kids weren't observant enough or it was the kind thing that they just weren't gonna pick up on to make fun of so I don't it's not as though my experience was one of being bullied over this or even indeed having anyone say anything about it. There's a couple times where actually the adults, uh, my life really, really, um, did shitty things. This was, God, let me tell you what not to do just for fun. This is a delightfully, bad um. Example of what to do as an adult around kids. Um, the only time anyone really ever said anything about this to me was I was at a wrestling uh tournament tournament and for know wrestling obviously you're you're wearing the singlet it's pretty revealing it's you know people are probably going to notice things like that more um some fucking Karen some I don't know if that's the right word some busy body fucking parent of some other kid I don'T even I DON'T even know who this person was I could hear them talking behind me like them and my coach and I could hear them like thinking they were being like but talking about like whoa what the fuck is wrong with this guy's back essentially to and then where one of them like I think it was my coach which sucks because I actually like this guy I felt him like get make an excuse to touch me and figure out out like what is happening and then this other like I was I was talking to a girl I was literally talking to her and this fucking someone's mom just apparently had had had enough of me knowing what this was to where she interrupted and was like hey has anyone ever looked at your back and

0:20:20 Thomas: Have you have you seen a doctor or looked at a what and I was like literally I'm talking to to a girl that I thought was like, you know, a little flirty, a little whatever, interrupts it to say, hey, you freak, do have any idea about this thing on your, you know, this way your back is? And I remember in that moment, I was, what, 15? Having to be like, how do I manage the feelings of this adult that's an idiot? Like, how do I handle this situation in which I, a kid, know, hey, that's a really stupid fucking thing to do. You don't think I know about this? Do have to wear a sign that's like, yes, I've seen a doctor about my back? Like, what would look like if I had seen a doctor? Do you think I'd be like in a gown or something? Like is that, how would you identify whether or not I knew about this and I just like got up and left. I remember I like couldn't even handle it and that's, like, the only time anyone's ever interacted with me about it but the thing that Phoebe will have I guarantee it is she will know that people know people don't have to say anything like you know you know that People notice things and she given Phoebe who already has so much going on you know with her mind and with how much you know like there's there's a lot going on there I think with the best of upbringing or whatever ever, with the best of surroundings, she's still going to know and feel different in a tough way.

0:21:45 Thomas: And I, if not, I'm going to be glad. That's awesome. I don't want to fuck that up. Like I'm not going to Be here telling her to feel different. I just will probably need to shut the fuck up and not say anything.

0:21:56 Eli: I so that that's all very, very real. And I'm definitely not saying that she won't experience hardship because of it. You know, that's going to be a real thing. What I was hoping to provide is like she's just going to have so much more support than you had both for her brain right when it comes to dealing with that kind of stuff and in that she's going to be born into a better society right and she'll probably have right worse experiences but like in that moment right when you had that experience with the unpleasant interaction with the adult. You could not go to your family and be like wow I had this really upsetting thing happen and I'm here in this formative place and this is what it did to my brain right it just sort of crystallized and now if you don't mow your own lawn you hit yourself with a sock full of nickels right yeah so I did right so this is a really good example right like my depression as much as it was a terrible thing because my parents made a lot of the right choices right and look I definitely had hard times because of my depression but because of the support that That I saw from my parents. Was able to see mental health crises coming. In a way that a lot of my contemporaries were not. Right. And I got the help that I needed. And it very often saved my life. Because of it.

0:22:37 Thomas: Eli, would you have gone to your parents about anything? Pick an equivalent like that. Would you have talked to your friends?

0:23:08 Thomas: I don't know, wonder if it was something, I'm trying to think of an equivalent. It's not something you need help with. There I wasn't anything to be done about this situation. There wasn't any thing to change. I didn't need treatment because of this, like, interaction I had. So is there something where you had an interaction where someone maybe, I don' t know, maybe it was around, I don't know, your weight or something.

0:23:33 Thomas: Is it something you were, yeah, would you go to your parents and be like, hey, this person made me feel bad about something that I already feel bad bad about, or, the only reason I ask is I never would go to anyone about that stuff.

0:23:33 Eli: I had a lot. Of those growing up. Yeah. Yes.

0:23:44 Tom: I would not have either.

0:23:44 Eli: I did. I went to my. Right. But I did go to my parents about that kind of stuff. And I did get that support.

0:23:46 Thomas: I don't, see, Tom, Tom gets it. Oh, God, that's a bad sign. I'm, Eli, I'm calling a therapist. I hear it. I'm callin', I'm calledin' the number. No, I'm just kidding.

0:23:56 Eli: Oh you agreed with oh hit the agreed with tom buzzer

0:24:00 Tom: It's over. It's over.

0:24:01 Thomas: No but I, I do want, sorry to interrupt. I do wanna hear that, Eli, so you, you did do that.

0:24:02 Eli: I did go to my parents and they did provide support for that and helped me develop a healthier mindset around my weight um know in the way that a lot of my contemporaries again did not get and so you I maintained confidence and uh thoughts about my body which anyone who's been a live show understands I don't have that many body issues right but like someone who had been my size and went through the bullying I went through or the attempted bullying that I went through right because truth of the matter was there was nobody who really succeeded

0:24:34 Thomas: I, I really hope people know I brought it up because you've mentioned it before. I'm realizing now Eli you're a fat piece of shit

0:24:39 Eli: I I never said that to you before ever thomas I'm I'm actually still really working on it I just told thomas in private earlier this week that I was getting the surgery, but now I don't know. Now I don't know. And I steal our company. See, I can make that joke now. Oh, what a good time it is.

0:24:54 Thomas: You can yeah that's interesting well maybe that will well so here's my fear and uh sure Tom uh give an insane take that I will agree with for once on this no but um I'm worried that like when people talk about that kind of quote -unquote support or they talk about you having people healthier mindset around her. I worry that if Phoebe's anything like me, that will just come across as bullshit. She'll Lydia say, or somebody say, oh, people don't even notice it. You're just, that brace is nothing. That's your superpower. You get to have a brace. Awesome. And I hope and pray that that works and people around her, I will do my best to try to do that. But if she's anything like me, if she hears any of that, she'll think, well, this person's just a liar. So that doesn't mean anything. And what almost wonder if I possible she might be helped by hearing me actually talk in some real terms about it, you know, and I don't know when that will be if.

0:25:59 Tom: I wouldn't down the road, Thomas. I agree. I would not go down the road of trying to create some alternate reality where difficult or, you know, painful or potentially bothersome things are skewed or painted to a kid in such a way that we're supposed to sell them that these are not true annoyances, painful things, difficulties or whatever. Like, don't do that. I'm right there with you. Like, we should.

0:26:24 Thomas: You Know, I'm not going to I'm not capable of doing that but

0:26:27 Tom: I But I also am saying, like, I don't think that's a good impulse. I don't think we are doing our kids a favor by doing that because kids are not stupid and

0:26:28 Thomas: I agree agree agree but but that's what the world around her is going to be though don't you think Tom like they like that's the I

0:26:39 Tom: World around her is going to try to paint it in some like like overly sugarcoated kind of way. I

0:26:43 Thomas: So I think teachers you doctors you know I think people tend to do that with kids don't You think okay

0:26:49 Tom: DONT I I DON 'LL THINK WAS SOMETHING LIKE A BACK BRACE LIKE I REALLY DON'T. I DON't THINK OF SOMTHING LIKE a back brace or some kid like this is your this is YOUR SUPER POWER AND THINK THAT THEY'RE GONNA BELIEVE THAT. Like, I mean, maybe if they're three or four to try to get them to wear it. No, I really don't. I really Don't think so. And I don't think that by the time kids are five, six, seven, eight years old, that it does them any favors. I don'T think most people's impulse is to kind of go down that road. I think with a six -year -old, you can be like, yeah, you know what? You've got something's wrong with your back. And the best shot we've got at fixing it is this back brace where I need you to wear it. I know it's going to be uncomfortable and I'm sorry. And I'm here for you when it's uncomfortable. Yeah, think that there's a realness that is necessary when things actually get real. I don't think it's the same thing as catastrophizing, and I don' think that's what you're suggesting. But I there's some impulse from some people that kind of goes down that road, too, where parents' emotions come into play, and that's always, I think, inappropriate in these circumstances. Circumstances but like I think you've got to just be honest here and and you know recognize that she's not gonna love it don't try to pretend that this is something she should love because that's a weird space for her to be in right oh here's this thing and like I'm gonna try to be cheerful and tell you all the reasons you're gonna love It's great and

0:28:00 Tom: It's like well no it's fucking uncomfortable and I don't like it well

0:28:00 Thomas: I think we will likely have a lot of people listening who do think that's What You Should Do I'm I I wonder, you know, yeah,

0:28:07 Tom: I would say that that's not what you should to do.

0:28:08 Eli: A co -host who thinks that's what you should do.

0:28:10 Thomas: Yeah. We have a co -host that thinks that's what you should do.

0:28:12 Tom: No, I think that's a bad impulse.

0:28:12 Eli: So me advocate for lying to your kids.

0:28:16 Thomas: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Eli.

0:28:17 Eli: Thank you. So I, first of all, I want to be serious for a second, then I'm going to get into to lying to your kids and how awesome it is so I think in all seriousness you and lydia are actually going to be kind of an amazing dream team because lydia's positivity and optimism is going to be what a very young child needs right because children young don't need the straight shit and often we retroactively are like I always knew that was bullshit and then we're like no I actually was a little bit older and again you were older when you got diagnosed so you're probably be more mature

0:28:44 Thomas: I'm going to let you finish, but I did want to say like, she's six. It actually is the approach currently to say, Hey, it's your super cool thing. You're wearing that actually is going to work now. Sorry, Tom. I think you're forgetting how young six is maybe or something. I don't know.

0:28:50 Eli: Young right but I actually think that the realness that you're afraid of right think that is going to be incredibly beneficial to her because when she reaches the age where she is ready for an honest conversation an adult who does take her pain seriously because they've experienced it especially an adult whom she super duper looks up to which is going going to be you right you're you're still until she turns 15 you're the coolest dude around right so when she comes to you and she's like I know that you know my teacher always says that this is my superpower but like I I don't know isn't everyone gonna laugh at me you can really share in those experiences and you can move her into a better mindset about how much it's going to help her and be healthy and all the stuff that that was just describing right I I think that will be a major benefit. Not like, I don't think you're going to have the cartoon picture that you're imagining, right? Where she's like, but dad, how is it really? And then it flash cuts to her running out of the room. Like, right.

0:29:53 Eli: I don't think that's going to be the issue. Now, let me talk about lying to your kid, because this is a hot take.

0:29:59 Thomas: Please.

0:29:59 Eli: I think you haven't considered as a man who doesn't mow his own lawn, right? You probably don't even have a firm grasp of reality at this point, but here's the thing. There's no such thing as truth. Okay. It's all fucking made up maybe it is her superpower right just be like oh you didn't know they're working on iron man suits for people with those braces yeah phoebe you're gonna be among the first to be connected to the ultron 5000 battle suit you will basically be a superhero and yeah will she eventually figure out that's not true. It's fine. But she'll be like, hey, dad, I heard the Ultron battle suit's not real. And you'll be, like, eh, you're 15. Grow the fuck up. It's great. It's great. It's like Santa and God. You get to lie until the second they call you out.

0:30:43 Eli: And then you're, like, don't be an asshole and call me out for this lie I've been telling you. It's all a part of growing up. So have you considered that as an option? All right. Well,

0:30:55 Thomas: I hate I hate that I'm saying this but I kind of want to hear from tom now

0:31:00 Eli: Well, see, this is how wrong you are, is you're moving over to Tom for a take.

0:31:04 Tom: I don't know, man. Eamon is only nine. I don't think I'm as far away from that time and space.

0:31:08 Thomas: That's why I'm surprised boy

0:31:10 Tom: Yeah, Eamon's only nine only. I'm that's far away. From that time in space, as you might imagine. And and I've had Aislinn in my life since she was six so like I've got I got three kids worth of experience at that age and I'm not that far removed from parenting it and my experience is that like that kind of stuff that you know lying and making up like a little fun story it works for things that don't really matter that don't create any real anxiety for kids right it works FOR things that are like just getting them over the hump right without any like real nervousness or or emotional attack you know anxiety around it it doesn't work for things that like the kids actually have real feelings for it just in my experience it just doesn't and I

0:31:49 Thomas: That's I weird because at six it still does I wonder if we just have different kids I don't know yeah

0:31:53 Tom: Maybe we just have to that's why I say my experience so like my experience is it's just not it that effective in I don't think they buy it I mean like I remember like a's on at six never would have bought that you know I mean I know her she never would have bought it and I can tell you like from experience around that age she fell and broke her arm and so we had to take her to the emergency room we had together get a cast on and all this stuff you was really no sugar coating hey you broke your arm you know like you got to wear this cast like the cast is gonna be a little uncomfortable you know wear it for you know several weeks and like we didn't try to like paint it as like a superpower but she She was just OK with like, OK, I got hurt and this is what needs to be done to fix it. I and she broke her arm again a couple of years later, the same arm, actually. So she's she's two for two on that one stick. But like, don't know, like I've never had anybody have to do something that's going to last for 10

0:32:43 Thomas: Yeah.

0:32:43 Tom: Years. But

0:32:44 Thomas: And isn't painful, by the way. So her mind, she doesn't know that anything's wrong. Like nothing to point to really for her to be like, hey, you know that pain in your broken arm? Like, yeah, it would be different, I think, if it was that. This is something where for all she knows, life is the same as it was yesterday, except now someone's telling her like you have to wear this uncomfortable thing forever it's man yeah

0:33:06 Tom: Yeah. So I guess whatever gets her into the brace. Right. So like whatever works for your kid to get her into The Brace is what you're going to do. And then I think your worry, if I understand it, is that like now you've sort of lied to her about this thing and that down the road she's going to feel some sense of like betrayal around this or difference in feelings around this. Is that is that your concern? Turn.

0:33:26 Thomas: My worry is more going forward like off how long can you do that it might be just for like this year literally that that'll work on a kid I don't know you know because they they do grow up fast but also my worry

0:33:37 Tom: Well, hopefully what'll happen, Thomas, is it'll just become habit. So the hope, right, is that it'll Just become like putting on a shirt, putting on pants, you put on your brace, like, why do I have to put on a brace? Well, because you know, you've got to make your back strong. And you know what I mean? Like whatever it is, however you choose to phrase it to her, but eventually it will be something that just, she just does kind of, you know automatically or on autopilot.

0:33:40 Thomas: I I think so yeah yeah yeah but it's think the the worry I've been trying to express is I don't think I can, especially as she gets older and you start having more real conversations with a kid, you know, I don't think I CAN OPEN MY MOUTH ON THIS ONE, REALLY. LIKE, FOR A WHILE.

0:34:12 Tom: I agree with you.

0:34:13 Thomas: AND SO, IT'S GONNA FEEL, LIKE, REALLY HARD. IT'S GOING TO FEEL LIKE I GET, GET TO TALK TO MY KID, I'M LOSING SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, LIKE IT'S going to feel hard. I DON'T KNOW AT WHAT POINT I SHOULD THINK, ALL RIGHT, NOW'S THE TIME. THAT'S GONNA BE INTERESTING to think about if ever maybe it'll be never I don't know no

0:34:29 Tom: I hope it's never, I hope she wears it. Look, look, she's six. She'll wear it till she's 16.

0:34:32 Thomas: She's not just about wearing it about her feelings about having scoliosis in this way kind of thing

0:34:37 Tom: Yeah, don't know, like my my experience with with the kids is there's been a lot of things I have not been able to say to the kids a So I can empathize with you there. There's been a lot things through a lot, a lot years that I've not been able to say that I wanted to say. But what I've discovered is like that impulse for me to want to share with them what I think and feel that's an inappropriate impulse my job with the kids is to listen to what they think and feeling and to hear them and to validate their feelings and emotions and not necessarily to have a back and forth about like what I can feel about this topic and I think the same can be true here of this brace like you're gonna have all kinds of thoughts and feelings about it it's obviously something that upsets you and I totally get that I do but But like at the end of the day, the experience that matters is Phoebe's experience. And so your job in that is to hear her and to validate her feelings and to be there and to empathize and to console and to soothe, but not necessarily to share in that moment in sort of like this collective space, because like that's not your peer. So that's the space you have to share together. Does that make sense? I

0:34:47 Thomas: Well for sure yeah I think I definitely validity to that um you ever have the interactions as a kid either of you where I I don'T even know what age this would be. It feels like forever, but I don't know. Like you say, Tom, maybe you misremember what age things made sense or didn't. Or that was Eli. Did you ever have that feeling that like, oh, okay, well, this adult is just lying say things to make me feel better. And then you're like, so, okay. I can't really talk to them because of that. Did your ever have off that?

0:36:14 Tom: I don't remember having that. But I but I think in your scenario, like it wouldn't be lying to not share your feelings.

0:36:23 Thomas: Oh no. True. Yeah. Sorry. So the thing I wanted to say was because like, so for example, if any adults talk to me about scoliosis and what it's like, there's like, I knew always what they were trying to do, which is like, make me feel better. I knew that it didn't come from a place of actual experience. And it also came from a a place of adults are going to try to make kids feel better. They're not going to, you know, like I always just was conscious of that. And so there wasn't a sense in which I was ever going to say, oh no, actually this really sucks. Like the thing you're saying isn't working and I hate it. There's, I was always like, oh yeah, okay. Like I would just go along with it. Cause I knew there wasn't what was the end of that? Whatever that interaction was, whatever it was a teacher, if it was, you know, a doctor, there wasn't that interaction wasn't going to go anywhere meaningful because this wasn't like someone I had a close relationship with. This was a surface level thing where someone thought they were making me feel better as a kid, but they weren't because I just knew they were lying. So my worry is like, if Phoebe is anything like me, she's going to feel like she doesn't really have anyone to talk to on

0:37:29 Eli: So let me interject here, right? Which is that that thing you grew up with was not healthy, right. That comes from the really bad way you were treated. Right. And because Phoebe is treated so much better, those interactions, as you remember, as being the experience of a child in the world will not be the experiences Phoebe has. Right? Right. Because they're they are the experience of someone who's been treated badly, who is suspicious of the interactions they're going to have. Right. Who has sort of these walls up emotionally and therefore these interactions always sort of get a taint to them. But because Phoebe has all these resources and has this amazing, loving, supporting network, the way she has those interactions is going to be vastly better than the way they were for you.

0:38:13 Thomas: That might be true. That's interesting.

0:38:15 Tom: I think I think I agree with Eli there. Like the I think you're you're worried legitimately worried because like your experiences with people were fundamentally emotionally dishonest. Like you are not setting yourself up even if you don't share in the sort of camaraderie of experience even if You don't do that part you are not setting Yourself up to be emotionally dishonest with her and so I think a lot of like what your experience speaks to is like a bunch of adults who really didn't take you as because you were a kid as somebody whose emotions were to be taken taken seriously and I do think that that's something we do you AND I THINK THAT THAT'S A BIG big difference I think I think that in times past there was a tendency a cultural tendency to sort of treat the emotionality of kids their experiences and you their worldview as being unimportant as being irrelevant as less than as something that adults can kind of blow off or even try to recast or reframe for them and adults when we were growing up did this all the time we remember as a kid like we'd tell adults in our lives how we felt or what we thought and

0:39:22 Tom: They would say things like no you didn't you know it's very common though right like it was very common for adults to like recast that shit or try to minimize our feelings or be like oh that's silly you know you don't have to worry about that and you're like but I am worried but I do feel these ways but I think kid like is growing up having a very different emotional experience and I think the adult tendency now is also different in most of the the other interactions that she'll have I think she'll have a lot less of that recasting reframing and minimizing and so I think that that that will be less of a concern for her I think her peer interactions

0:39:22 Thomas: Just ask Tom. Eli didn't have this. Yeah oh yeah me and you for sure yeah exactly yeah

0:39:59 Tom: Will still be something she'll have to fight through and to deal with um my hope is that she's out of this brace by the time she's 16 and you know her middle school years aren't too unkind for her but yeah I mean that'll be that'll be down the road and you won't be able to predict it

0:40:13 Thomas: That's another thing that's so good about her being so young yeah I really feel like kids adopt and like that'll just be who phoebe is and I don't think people think about it that much hopefully you know um boy if you and eli are agreeing I think I've definitely like that I think that means I really need to take take a look in the mirror and see

0:40:31 Eli: It's a really reasonable thing because one of the things that you've spoken about on the show is like one of most nefarious parts of your dad's um was how dismissive he was of everybody but his own opinion right is that you were just constantly negged and put down for having an experience that was different than him or God forbid disagreeing with him that like I think your proverbial dukes were up for so many adult interactions and those interactions were worse right and and so I I think she is going to step into a much better world and again I I want to emphasize that I think your honesty and your sweetness right which is not a cold bitter sort of um right which I think your dad might have brought to this but the support and honesty I think that's going to mean the world to her I think it's going to be something you share and I think the way that my mom modeled the experience of depression for me and I could understand that while depression could knock you down and keep you in bed for a month you could still be great and heroic and admirable I think you're going to serve as that model for phoebe in a lot of ways and then she's going to learn that you don't mow your own lawn and then

0:41:42 Eli: It's all going to be shit it's all gonna be gone it'll all be gone yeah

0:41:43 Tom: It's done it's over at that point yeah yeah

0:41:43 Thomas: That's true. You're not my dad. You're my... Tell you this, this isn't one of those things where I'm going to say, ooh, how I make her do... It's going to be like, she's wearing her fucking brace. I'm sorry, I know. I know what this is, and you're not going to not wear it. That's just... I will find a way, however it is, whether it works through mere persuasion or force I will find a way for her to wear a brace because if she doesn't she literally has to have a surgeon fucking put metal in her back so this is one of those things where I don't have the issue of like oh am I allowed to make her do something it's like no she's wearing her fucking brace that's gonna be how it is yeah

0:42:20 Tom: That's it that's all you can do yeah that

0:42:21 Eli: That's what you gotta do sometimes sometimes tick tock doesn't get a vote sometimes right gentlemen before we go what do you get when you eat uranium atomic ache atomic atomic ache

0:42:25 Thomas: I think she just said atomic ache yeah

0:42:41 Tom: Atomic egg okay that certainly happened all

0:42:50 Thomas: Ache

0:42:56 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:43:35 Thomas: Yeah, see, Tom, Tom gets it. Oh, God, that's a bad sign.