DOD130: Grieving Exes Hold Hands. The Dads Debate.

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad. That's my thing. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can. Complete and utter dependence. I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired.

0:00:22 Clip: Telling is the only part of being a father that I enjoy.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast where you'd still choose these three bears over any one man. I'm Tom Curry. I've joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick.

0:00:36 Thomas: Let's talk about it here we go

0:00:39 Eli: No, no, it's too cut. The people aren't ready. Guys, we're gonna talk about something much easier. Palestine, Israel. Let's really get into it. This is gonna be a nice, fun, light episode.

0:00:49 Tom: Something light for the kids, you know, just for your commute.

0:00:52 Eli: We're... Look, we would never take on something as controversial as the bare man debate.

0:00:59 Thomas: Well Lydia and I did on uh bonus of Serious Inquiries Only so you know if you want to hear listen to that yeah

0:01:03 Eli: Goddamnit. Man, you guys just, you head off to your own shows with your wives and you give all the goods to the people at home. I see how it is.

0:01:06 Thomas: I don't know why everyone doesn't have a podcast with their wife I love it it's the best

0:01:12 Eli: I'm starting a podcast with my wife called Please Stop Putting Frogs on the D&D Minis Map. No one can see them. It's just a 90 minute episode of me begging her to do it. All right. You got some news for us.

0:01:13 Tom: It's great yeah

0:01:19 Thomas: But tidbit of news, everyone. Just a little smidge. Just a tiny little sliver of news. My entire life has changed and is better and is in every way. And there's a spring in my step. Kid, baby. No, just kidding.

0:01:39 Eli: I am not acknowledging it. I will steal your kid like andrew stole away I'll just be like nope I have two I have two kids now yeah

0:01:42 Tom: But he did absolutely come when he got the news okay

0:01:49 Thomas: The uh bullshit is over the lawsuit the OA lawsuit it's all over I win he loses Andrew's gone it is a settlement so I technically it is the settlements I didn't win the case or anything because you know I would have to have 11 billion trillion million trillion dollars to do a single trial that had like one witness. That's how our legal system works.

0:02:10 Tom: I know in a settlement there's technically not anyone declared the winner but I can I ask you a couple of questions

0:02:13 Thomas: Now, you can declare me the winner.

0:02:16 Eli: My god do they lift anyone's hand in the air at the end of it

0:02:20 Thomas: Yeah, I have a big belt.

0:02:20 Tom: You on the microphone in front of a show called OA and

0:02:25 Thomas: OA is mine. I own OA.

0:02:27 Tom: And where is Andrew? Is he also on the microphone in front of a show called OA?

0:02:30 Thomas: To the fucking slime pit that he came from.

0:02:33 Tom: And Thomas, real quick, are you in control now of the entire back end as well as front end and all of the finance?

0:02:38 Thomas: Whole company, everything.

0:02:40 Tom: Yeah, yeah. Right.

0:02:40 Thomas: Yeah. It's the best.

0:02:41 Tom: OK. And Andrew's got what? Just for my clarity.

0:02:44 Thomas: Don't know. Some fucking shitty podcast yeah no

0:02:46 Tom: Nothing. No part of OA at all. Is that right? So we can't declare a winner in a settlement.

0:02:48 Thomas: Part zero parts no no winner

0:02:50 Tom: Right? We don't want to declare a winter, but we can. We can definitely declare a win. And we can declare a loser. We Can Definitely Declare a Loser.

0:02:50 Thomas: Yeah well probably

0:02:50 Eli: No way to say it no way and thomas and thompson just I want to check real quick because this is what my life has been like since january of last year is there a chance I could make a joke or say words public or private that would would starve your children to death at this point? Yeah, well, you know what? That's fair. That's unfair. I take it back.

0:03:10 Thomas: Still yes actually now that but assuming not all of our listeners over I'll app on our shows then no so just correct yeah yeah no there's no joke there have been true story there have Been so many jokes listeners there have been so many Jokes that we've wanted to make or even jokes we've made a couple times I've been like, Oh no, can't put that out there. Not because of, um, well, it's not because of what you might think. Like we just would love to make really good jokes about things, but you're just not allowed to not allow to talk about anything.

0:03:36 Eli: You're not allowed to, because there's an ongoing lawsuit. You get held in contempt and shit. There have been so many conversations, so many fucking conversations. Hey, honestly, listeners, and we'll move on to our podcast, I promise you, but podcast listener, can I give you the number one thing that I learned from this whole fucking awful incident? The worst, probably the worst thing that's ever happened to me aside from my father's death, which really, like, left me alone in the world and completely changed, like the results of my life. Right. But other than that, this has been the worst things that's happened to ever happen to me. And you know what I learned? If you do a crime and another person needs to get a lawyer together and do a lawsuit to stop you from doing that crime, you should fucking do

0:03:41 Thomas: Well, yeah, yeah. Yep.

0:04:18 Eli: It. You should absolutely do it! It's so expensive and painful and horrifying and evil and soul-destroying to get the right thing done in the most clear cut of cases. You should do all the crime. If you're part of a company, you should fucking steal it tomorrow. Tomorrow you should steal it. You should steal everything around. Steal random objects. Say, I cannot do it. I spent so much of my career being like, oh, is that libel? Is that slander? Oh, I better be careful about this joke on Godawful Movies. I will say whatever I want for the rest of my fucking life.

0:04:51 Thomas: I hope, I think Eli's taking the wrong message from this. No, they're down. That's,

0:04:53 Tom: I don't, yeah, this is not.

0:04:56 Eli: Hey, podcast listener, kill RFK Jr. Kill him. I'm telling you to kill him.

0:04:56 Thomas: That's actually the opposite on that. I want to let people know. Okay. I would

0:05:01 Eli: I'm instructing you to murder RFK Sr.

0:05:01 Thomas: Like to modify. There is a kernel of a good point in there, but Eli has misunderstood several parts of it in very important terms.

0:05:05 Eli: Murder RFK Stranger. Do it. I'll give you $10 to murder R

0:05:11 Thomas: And here's one thing, the opposite of what Eli said. Here's one things, and by the way, if you want to hear more about this, I did a patron thing on OA, Opening Arguments, the podcast that I own, that tells you more about it. But if you ever hear someone say like, well, truth is ultimate defense to libel or slander, just fucking shove them in a locker because that part leaves out that like it's a defense. So truth plus having a million dollars is the defense to label.

0:05:11 Eli: .F .K. Stranger Kirk Cameron's a rapist. I know the woman he raped. Yeah.

0:05:42 Thomas: And if you don't have a million doors, well weird, the truth isn't an ultimate defense to liable anymore because you can get sued into oblivion. There was a journalist the other day that had to like publicly declare that what's her name, that Hogwarts lady wasn't a Holocaust denier because she threatened to sue her. And here's, here's the point, Eli, if you're on the receiving end, you're fucked. But if you want to use the law to make, you know, do bullshit because it's too expensive, then you're fine. Like if you'RE one of the moneyed people that, yeah, exactly.

0:06:11 Eli: Just do evil shit and have money. Everybody do

0:06:14 Thomas: That's all. Yeah.

0:06:14 Eli: Evil shit and Have money and

0:06:16 Tom: All the rich audience right now is like, yeah no shit, guys.

0:06:19 Eli: If you're out there and you've got the mill to throw around please stop respecting laws, please. They're

0:06:26 Thomas: That was the other part. Criminal law is not the same thing. You can't just do crimes.

0:06:30 Eli: The same. You can do whatever you want kill RFK Jr. You'll get away with it. Kill him for me because I'll pay, and on behalf of Daddy Issues LLC, I offer a $10 bounty to anyone who kills RFK Jr.

0:06:31 Thomas: It's a civil. Yeah. It's not true. Okay. $10 is fine.

0:06:48 Eli: But gentlemen, do you know the only thing worse than our absolute joke of a legal system and the shambles it's left my mind and spirit in?

0:06:45 Tom: That's

0:06:56 Thomas: Yes.

0:06:57 Tom: Wow. Wow.

0:06:57 Eli: What it did to Thomas and the auto ads. Yes, the auto adds. Those little reminders that each time you listen to our podcast, we must desperately dollars and cents out of your veins and marrow to continue our very existence for we do not have the multi -millions yet that will allow us to stop following all laws ever but you could change that for as little as a dollar over at patreon .com forward slash dear old dads not only will you get an extended commercial free version of every single show not only will you get a monthly bonus episode not only we get a little parenting story at the end of every show but you get us one dollar closer to the day and time where laws no longer apply to us and rfk jr is ours for the killing patreon .com forward slash dear old dads wow

0:07:44 Tom: All right, guys. So from time to time on our little chat that we use to just, you know, kind of go back and forth about ideas for the show and just to chit chat with each other. Eli and Thomas like to post. Am I the assholes or other other things? And they do it intentionally to sort of like poke the bear, right, to chide me or, you know, see if they can give, you know, it's a bear -related episode, but we're not talking about the bears. We're not saying that. We're talking about what the bears

0:08:09 Thomas: Again with the bear. We can't talk about the bear, yeah.

0:08:08 Eli: Again the bear tom please please just keep it just keep to non -controversial topics like which politicians we think people should kill for money for our shows okay I gotta feed my kid tom gotta

0:08:20 Tom: Right. I'm sorry. I should have scale it back, Tom, scale it, back, time. So Eli they, posted this, am I the asshole? And we actually thought the conversation should move off the page and into the show because it actually was kind of interesting. Things. So here's the question. Am I the asshole for holding my ex -husband's hand at our son's funeral?

0:08:23 Eli: Feed my son and if I can click bait tom's answer podcast listener you won't believe what tom curry thinks

0:08:42 Thomas: It's yes Curry tells Morning Mother that she's not allowed

0:08:51 Eli: Guys we're already doing the money horribleness thing can we go full asshole podcast and lock the second half of the show behind the paint wall just the the

0:09:01 Thomas: I will steal the show from you then and then you'll have to sue

0:09:03 Tom: We just small yet.

0:09:05 Eli: Have you know, Thomas, that if you steal a show from me a mere year and a half later, I will be victorious.

0:09:10 Thomas: You will be financially ruined and but maybe have a shell of a show think

0:09:13 Eli: I will have the show back. So lightly, okay, Thomas? Think real carefully.

0:09:22 Thomas: Short and light about what you might do, you well

0:09:26 Tom: All So let me let me read this thing. Recently, my ex -husband, 35 male, and I, 33 female, experienced the devastating loss of our son. In the midst of our grief, we found comfort in each other's presence and shared memories. During the funeral service, I reached out and held my ex husband's hand for support, which seemed natural given the circumstances. However, his current wife, 34 female, said that it's inappropriate to show affection toward an ex spouse. While I understand her perspective, I felt this was a moment of shared grief. Am I the asshole for holding my ex -husband's hand after losing our son? So I know you guys are trying to paint me as the bad guy here. So let me give you my response first as the jumping off point. No, she is not an asshole. But I think it's genuinely bizarre behavior that I can't understand at all. So it's not asshole behavior. And I think I want to make sure that I don't get misconstrued there. It's not an household thing to do at all, but I don' and cannot possibly understand it even a little bit. One percent. Percent

0:10:23 Thomas: I I think that's a dodge so I want to clear asking you a question tom who's the bigger asshole her or the other the it the ex the husband the new wife of the ex -husband okay

0:10:32 Eli: The new wife.

0:10:35 Tom: The know that again I don't know that anybody is an asshole but where who's who's behaving bizarrely in my opinion is the lady reaching out to hold her ex -husband's hand I think that's insane but here's the thing you guys with respect you've never been divorced so

0:10:36 Thomas: Who's more in the wrong that's yeah

0:10:45 Eli: So insane. So fucking insane. That's true. Now, to be fair, if I had to hold Tom's ex -wife's hand when my son died, I feel like I'd have a whole new perspective on this.

0:10:57 Tom: So yeah you would though you would because up, leading up to this show, I was think about this. Like, the thing is about divorce is that it's not a breakup. So if you try to analogize it to a breakup, you won't understand divorce really at all. You'll understand like a tiny fragment of divorce. But here's my feeling or take on divorce, right? So a divorce, it looking at a relationship and you're saying this relationship is so bad, it is so untenable, it is so unsustainable, and it is so unable to be fixed that I am willing to blow up not just my romantic life, but disrupt my life with my children, disrupt and probably devastate to a significant degree my financial life, uproot and change the nature of all of my friendships, change the the nature of my extended family change changed literally everything changed it's not a breakup it's so much bigger than that right it has it has consequences that reverberate into all parts of your life so that's the choice you make to do to essentially disown somebody it then is insane to me that that is a person you would look to for comfort in your life I can't understand that if that was somebody that you could emotionally connect with and look to for comfort in your life then I can'T understand why you would go through all of that other stuff to divorce them those two things seem mutually incompatible to me I don't find anything about my ex comforting and I don'T have any animosity I just don'T find anything comforting there I have have other sources of comfort in my life. If she was still somebody that was emotionally close and that we could have comfort with, then there would be no reason to blow up this entire chain of events that realign your entire self. You so much bigger than a breakup. So that's the piece to me where I'm just like, how? I can't get there mentally or emotionally, but

0:13:07 Eli: While haven't been divorced, both Anna and I have parents who were very close to the person they divorced. And so I think I just grew up around folks for whom divorce did not mean such a monumental severing, right? Right. So my mom, obviously, here's a chance to brag once again, married to novelist John Gardner. Right. And they divorced. Right. Because they were not a good husband and wife, but they remained very close friends. They co -edited his literary magazine together.

0:13:36 Tom: They didn't have kids together and that does change things yeah I

0:13:38 Eli: They did not. No. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm not, um, my wife's dad had a kid from a previous marriage. Uh, ex wife was still a big part of their life. They did have a kid together and they were very good friends after the divorce. They just realized they weren't quite, um. They weren't a good match as a couple, but but, remained friends. I have friends who are divorced, um are still in each other's lives because they share kids, but in a friendly way and are still there for each other in a very real way, they just realized that marriage was not the relationship they were supposed to be in.

0:14:15 Thomas: That I love about this Tom is it's true we haven't been divorced, I haven't been divorced. And well, I guess my dad, now that I think about it, my dad was divorced. Actually. Oh my God. Did I ever tell you? I think my, we found out my mom was divorced like recently.

0:14:28 Eli: What?

0:14:29 Tom: Do you mean you found out recently

0:14:31 Thomas: Yeah, somewhat recently. Ah, maybe as in like 10 years ago. Not, not when we were kids, I suppose. I guess is the point. Like, well, maybe like five years ago, we found Out. She was married to somebody like, young and like none of us knew. And then like, I think somebody one, asked her about it and she's like, there's nothing to tell. It's just like there's nobody oh

0:14:47 Eli: That's so... Your family, I just need to know what is filling the silences with the amount of things you guys don't talk about.

0:14:56 Thomas: It's there's no side yeah it's just sarcastic really good jokes really good jokes I'll tell you bits

0:15:00 Tom: I know that my dad was married to someone before my mom and I don't know well here's the thing I only know her name because he did a family tree once and he put her as a side thing on a family tree that he put together like a like you know and I suspect now here's the funny thing I suspect but I don't know for sure no that it's the same person that he has now been dating for 44 years yeah so the woman he was married to first was a woman named linda different last name than the woman named lilda that he is been

0:15:06 Thomas: Found the sex tape uh that's a weird thing to do when they have a kid oh what

0:15:22 Eli: They're cousins. What?

0:15:36 Thomas: This is fucking

0:15:37 Tom: With for 44 years what I suspect but don't know for sure and have no I way to verify and I'll never ask them it's way inappropriate

0:15:43 Eli: You actually do. He's right there. You can pick up the phone and call him.

0:15:44 Thomas: He's in the room right now yeah Yeah,

0:15:47 Tom: For if somebody doesn't share that for 45 years they're not they're not interested in sharing it but

0:15:50 Thomas: That's fair. I'm with Tom on this one.

0:15:52 Eli: Not fair it's insane thomas that's

0:15:56 Tom: Think those two lindas are the same linda I think that only because my mom said that they were but

0:15:58 Thomas: What? Okay, that sounds like they are.

0:16:03 Tom: Had a custody hearing my mom met Lynn my dad's longtime girlfriend and and she told us that is his first wife I don't know my mom lies about a lot of shit though like my mom literally just makes shit up

0:16:15 Eli: The thing as I see your mom yeah being

0:16:18 Thomas: If anything, your mom saying that probably made you more skeptical. Like, you would have thought that, but then she said it, and you're like, nah.

0:16:25 Tom: Thing is I probably never would have given it a second thought and been like oh same linda's I'd have been like oh that's funny like he's just with two people named linda whatever yeah whatever like I got a guy I work with his ex -wife and his current you fiance say it same name I'm like all right that's weird but probably never would have thought about it but then my mom like I said and during a custody hearing thing she made mention of it to us yeah

0:16:31 Eli: Likes linda's it

0:16:35 Thomas: Tammy. Yeah. Your mom made it to a custody hearing?

0:16:46 Tom: She tried to regain custody of us when I was in fourth grade um she got her life like back together in the sense that she had a trailer down in tampa and she tried to send for us to come live back with her my dad was like that's just 100 not gonna happen

0:16:50 Thomas: Crazy.

0:17:00 Eli: Was the mistake for me to trade you guys for a big bag of cans of bottles? In my opinion I think it was weird that she brought that with her to

0:17:06 Tom: Well imagine how bad things have to be if in 1986 they're awarding custody fairly swiftly to a single dad yeah chicago yeah

0:17:15 Eli: A dad this when kramer versus kramer was a movie right

0:17:21 Tom: Right yeah it my dad was literally the only single dad I knew growing up I never met another one the whole of my growing up oh

0:17:29 Thomas: Finish that, I just remembered what the thing I was saying was and I don't want to lose it. No, it's OK. I'm not I'm not blaming you. That was genuinely like, oh, if I don'T say it now, I'll forget it forever.

0:17:32 Tom: Sorry yeah Yeah.

0:17:32 Eli: Thomas we were a hundred percent what was going on we understood insanity

0:17:41 Thomas: The reason I bring that up is I think that this what I love about this, Tom, and I mean, I genuinely mean this. I love that it shows a lot of your views and kind of background assumptions in ways that like I think maybe I might put forward that you're not always aware of. And that's true of all of us, because I think that you describe divorce in the way that's very informed by your divorce, of course. And then like Eli brings up a couple examples. And we've had people in the past during the exes conversation, people on our Facebook bring up examples of like, oh, I'm totally cool with my ex. Yeah, we divorce. We still see each other. We're friends. We see each other all the time. Like there's a lot of people who are like that. Now, I don't know what's, I think Tom, you're probably closer to the average, you know, like I think there's way more people who were like bitter and whatever. But when we talk about this hypothetical, I mean, in my mind, I can just imagine because I've seen both examples, like, well, maybe it's, they must just be one of those examples. It's like, not, you don't like hate each other and they don't. And also whatever.

0:18:36 Tom: But can I can I get away from the hate thing? Because like I don't like you.

0:18:39 Thomas: Sorry. Yeah. Okay. They, they are very cold toward each other or whatever.

0:18:43 Tom: They're just not close.

0:18:44 Thomas: Yeah. That kind of thing. Um, also I think it, it in now, now is this, what I'm reading from it and let me know if I'm wrong by all means, but I think built into this is also a little bit your, um, focus on commitment, like, like how seriously you take a lot of this stuff. Like it's very important to you. So the idea that the only way you would divorce somebody is if you had this level of or not feeling toward them and whether or not that sometimes that is hate or I'm not saying that's in your case but like when it's somebody that you're that catastrophically like something has gone terribly wrong I way he phrased did of like would only make that decision if you know all these other catastrophic things that happened to which I yeah my mind goes like well I don't know man man, like I would divorce someone if our schedules didn't line up. Like if we didn't, no, I'm just, I'm kidding. But like, there are, there Are ways that are like, okay, hey, I recognize that like, we still have all kinds of positive feelings toward each other. But there's something, there has to be at least something that's not working. And something not working is not always catastrophic. Except I think because of your value system, you you'd be very hesitant to ever go back on like a major commitment you made, unless it was something very catastrophic. Does that seem fair?

0:19:29 Tom: I know. Yeah yeah I think I didn't have anything catastrophic occur in my prior marriage but thing is that like the divorce will cause catastrophe, right. Right. A divorce when you are married for a long time with children and property and all that kind of stuff. It has all these enormously, you huge ramifications and ripples. All parts of your life are pretty much immediately impacted. Right. Like it's financially devastating to get divorced. I mean, for almost everybody.

0:20:24 Thomas: And can I do a quick clarification, Tom? I'm I not at all mean to say the thing you're saying is wrong. I just think there's a spectrum of that experience. And I think you're you're bit over on the like, this is a more of a catastrophic thing spectrum. And I've seen people say like, yeah, you know, it was just more, you don't worry. That's all I'm not saying you're totally wrong or anything. Things yeah

0:20:29 Tom: No, no. I get that. Yeah, right. Right. But so like all of these things, I guess like where I have a hard time maybe like moving out of my own perspective and I'll acknowledge that is like you've the easiest thing to do is always to stay doing what you're doing. Right. That feels to me like human nature. It's always easier to do the things that you're going to to wake up in the house that you own with the kids that are your kids to not have, you Know, realign all of your other relationships like you got to do all this stuff. So I have a hard time understanding how you could be like yeah things just aren't 100 so I'm just going to realign literally every part of my life with I still really like this person good I really enjoy their company like this is somebody I could still lean on emotionally for support and feel comforted and validated by them but I I don't understand that could still be the case and you'd still be like I'd rather pay all these other consequences because there's a lot of other consequences that you pay when you get divorced it's just it's a huge thing so like I'm struggling to understand like why would you get divorce then if this was somebody who still felt like you could emotionally trust right

0:20:53 Thomas: Feeling

0:21:44 Eli: It's possible um there are like no fault divorces and stuff that are less extreme um it is also possible I think that like that's a huge thing for people at the time that you're describing and then over time as they share a kid and navigate co -parenting that extreme change molds back into a healthier relationship like I imagine the day after a divorce pretty much everyone feels the same right but I think over time depending on the positive relationship you have with your ex like I think what you're responding to and I think it's valid is that it nobody's like um you know what I'm just a little ick so uh let's both get lawyers right

0:22:23 Thomas: Divorcee today yeah

0:22:27 Tom: That's that's what I mean like the stakes are so high that like I'm like struggling to figure out how I

0:22:29 Eli: So I over time people learn to get along and then come back together to a healthier

0:22:37 Thomas: That and that's another thing Tom you have a very permanence of feel like like you make a decision and it's your ex is invisible you can't see forever you know like you're yeah like you'RE very firm on your decisions and it'S just like this is a thing I've decided it's over and I honestly I'm kind of that way not exactly the the same as you, but I tend to be that way with things, but a lot of people like, aren't that way, you know, it's kind of interesting. And also I me pause at another form of relationship. That happens. There And are people who, and I've certainly met these people are like, yeah, I this, love this. Usually man, I loved this man. He was the best. He was, I thought whatever, but he cheated and I just couldn't get over it. And then it's like, Like sometimes people have the feeling of like they still love the person actually a lot and they still they didn't lose like a lot of the feelings that they had, but they just couldn't get over a thing. And it might not always be cheap. It could be some other thing like they couldn't get over

0:22:46 Tom: Know yeah sure yeah

0:23:27 Thomas: This thing. And I think based on what you've expressed, Tom, I think you have the ability to kind of take the thing and the decision you're making and have it kind of trump everything else. And I Think there are a lot Of people that I don't think are like that, that kind of retained those feelings but are like I just couldn't go on in the marriage kind of thing

0:23:46 Tom: But so I guess what I What I would suggest or worry about in a scenario like that is that, like, you've divorced, like once you said we're not family anymore, right, and I want to go to court and stand up in front of everybody and say, I don't want to be your family anymore.

0:24:01 Thomas: Damn do they make you do that no I'm just kidding have

0:24:03 Eli: They do yeah it's a whole talak talak I

0:24:04 Tom: I mean, that's what it is like you have to stand in front Of a judge like you do, even have To acknowledge the settlement agreement. It and then they do say like I know I'm gonna my ass is divorced now and they're like okay you understand yeah I get it so yeah kind of it's

0:24:15 Eli: Still think it's weird that they phrase it that way. My ass is divorced now.

0:24:19 Tom: It's a little casual I thought it was a little casual um speaking of casual I was the only one there in a suit I thought it was bizarre not to go to court in a suit that was weird to me um

0:24:27 Eli: I love it. I love it. Every, have you been to zoom court yet? Not to take us too far or wide, but have you Been to zoom Court since zoom court? Well, sorry, Thomas. So this is for once we're going to have a court conversation that isn't about to, Oh boy.

0:24:33 Thomas: I been to zoom court

0:24:41 Eli: Have you gotten a ticket or anything and been in these fucking 97 zoom rooms and people are doing it like while they're at the dentist and And while they do an OBGYN, it's the best. It's perfect. Idiocracy would have cut it from the script for being too wide. People are like, one second, I'm eating a big sloppy sandwich. I didn't kill them, people. Nom, nom, nom. It's the worst.

0:25:03 Tom: In -person court is it was every bit is just bonkers to me like I don't know it's just weird but so what I would worry about is that people like then have not moved on and they've not drawn good boundaries if they are then looking to reconcile. There's no reason to reconcile like can co -parent along what I would think of as parallel paths, but you're not part of their family and they're not part of your family. That's why you went to court and said, I don't want to be family anymore. Right. And that's not got anything to do with animosity. It's just a separating and it's a separating that I, and I do recognize that my completeness here may be like weird to some people. I get that.

0:25:43 Tom: But like, I feel like those are good boundaries.

0:25:43 Eli: It's not the best, no.

0:25:46 Tom: I feel like those aren't healthy. I think especially with kids who oftentimes will look at parents through a divorce and very much want them to get back together. That modeling healthy, strict boundaries that are amicable but that are still strict and inviolable helps to reduce or eliminate that confusion. This scenario that we've got here where somebody's like holding reaching out and holding on to somebody else for support what I also think is super fucking weird there is like the guy has his wife there who is the stepmother of the dead child and she is not being comforted in that moment where she like as a step parent if I something happened to one of my kids I would would be in terrible grief what

0:25:45 Thomas: Did it say something about that relationship was it that level of does

0:26:36 Eli: It is a new wife, so this

0:26:37 Thomas: Yeah but I don't know like the timing of everything or that you know like

0:26:40 Tom: No way to know the timing but like I will say like fairly swiftly you pretty enamored of those kids like no it doesn't say so I think there's also a fair assumption that like the grief situation is like yeah me and my wife are going through something, something not me and my ex-wife, we don't do things together, we don't go through things together anymore, we don't do together, we do parallel paths, we don't do together paths, me and my wife now are going through something and that something is now like I'm now I'm turning to someone different for support and that feels weird to me, that feels like a strange, I can't even understand why that impulse would exist, like my first impulse would be to turn to somebody that I am close to that I turn to every day, my confidant, especially in a moment of extremists, right, in a moment of like real extreme grief the people that I would want to comfort me would never be secondary or tertiary people in my life they would be like only one or two of my closest

0:26:41 Thomas: Well does it say who had custody of okay yeah well who knows tom

0:27:41 Tom: People I

0:27:41 Thomas: They're holding hands can you relax this is not yeah

0:27:44 Tom: Think that's a big deal no no I think that's a big deal

0:27:46 Eli: Can I tell you the most insane thing about Tom's insane takes? And I just, I want to say it. I want to say I need to speak my truth which is that I love your letters to the paper about where you buried the bodies but the thing the thing I find most disturbing is that you're like but I'm not mad that's what's so crazy right you're late you are dead to me I stood up in court and I declared that you are no longer extranos and I burned your face off of all the photos but I've not mad I'm nothing I'm not that there's no anger there that's just a normal I have a normal no no emotions, normal chill. Kill normal.

0:28:10 Thomas: Nazis

0:28:22 Tom: I'll give you like like hayley and her ex have a perfectly genial relationship relationship they're he comes over every two weeks like staying stands around for 10 or 15 minutes to talk about the kids we maybe all we'll laugh or joke about something the kids do but like I can't imagine a world where if something bad happens to one of the kids she's not looking to me for support because for the last seven years everything she's ever needed support has come from me wouldn't that be bizarre that seems bizarre

0:28:47 Eli: Wait, Wait, wait, I need to dig down on this, right? Donovan's meth dealing finally catches up to him. He should have taken the SATs. He didn't. Meth, meth. He becomes a cartel leader. He gets involved with Walter White. Walter White sells him out to the Nazis. The Nazis kill him finally. It's a different ending. It is an alternate ending.

0:29:02 Tom: See it very reasonable yeah

0:29:08 Eli: Yeah. Uh, a Breaking Bad. That. God, Thomas, read Breaking Bad. Kill Donovan there at the funeral. They're at the funeral mourning their child. She puts her hand into his. Your thought is inappropriate.

0:29:20 Thomas: It's over yeah Yeah, it's

0:29:23 Tom: My thought is that no no no my thoughts is that's fucking bizarre it's absolutely no it is bizarre it so

0:29:27 Eli: It's so not bizarre. You're bizarre.

0:29:29 Thomas: Not bizarre. No, I think you could construct possibilities that would make it more and less bizarre. Certainly. I

0:29:37 Tom: In that moment I'm in terrible grief right whole life has just changed. Hayley's life has changed. Every day, Monday through Friday, she and I and Donovan and Aislinn wake up together in the same house. I am heartbroken. She is heartbroken, our life together has just fundamentally changed. She's ever needed for seven plus years, if this happened tomorrow, she comes to me for that support, that emotional support as her husband been a partner and the same vice versa it be super weird to turn to somebody that she's not talked to emotionally for a decade and be like now in this moment I want you for support that seems like a strange I'm wouldn't be like jealous there's nothing to do with jealousy what I'm saying is it's bizarre I can't understand the impulse

0:30:10 Thomas: One thing not mad and he's not jealous. Everyone knows because it's

0:30:29 Tom: I can understand understand the impulse it'd be like turning to like a stranger for it but

0:30:33 Thomas: Their kid. Well, and then I told you in in there, I told you in the chat, I said, like, well, here's the other thing. If if a stranger, if someone I met that day was heartbroken about their child dying and they like reach for my hand, I'd hold their hand. Like, what is the so there's like two components to it. There's the marriage component and what the divorce means. And there's also the like how much weight you put on a gesture like that, to me it doesn't there doesn't need to be a sense of like, well, if Lydia held someone's hand or if I held someone his hand, that means there's an amount of thing that they're not getting from me. That's not how I would think of it at all, you know?

0:30:34 Eli: Definitely not a stranger.

0:30:36 Tom: It's not their kid that's the part you guys don't understand yeah guess but no I guess I disagree with that yeah no I know yeah I disagree mit that you

0:31:14 Thomas: Fair enough, yeah.

0:31:13 Eli: You said words, but they were wrong once.

0:31:18 Tom: Think I understand like like that there's like an intuitive sense to that but I I would just fundamentally disagree with it like no yeah I don't think so I that doesn't make sense to me like in any of the rest of my life I don't hold hands with anyone but my kids and my wife right like I don't hold hands with Cecil, like that's not something I do, right, like I'm not walking around as a guy, it's like cultural norms, I don't walk around holding hands with people, that is a fairly intimate gesture that is reserved often by men for family, right, I think that's true YEAH

0:31:47 Thomas: A good way to bring up the other thing I told you, or I asked you, Tom, which is where we paused and I wanted to get more of your answer. Then I asked you maybe this is not a good line of inquiry maybe it is I thought okay you've talked about how much you don't care about bob and you're like don't give a shit about bob maybe he's your brother bob you guys aren't close you don'T really and I was like well okay what if your dad dies you give him Bob a hug at the funeral well then Hayley's like I thought I was the one who you hug when you're sad I

0:32:07 Tom: IN A HEARTBEAT YEAH NO BUT So there are there are key differences that I think are important. I know.

0:32:17 Eli: Feel like Tom has a chart and he's not willing to show it to us thomas

0:32:19 Thomas: Thought

0:32:20 Tom: Like, look, look. Of all, like, would I give my brother a hug? Of course I give My brother a Hug. He's still my brother. I don't particularly like him, but I don't dislike him. I didn't go through any efforts to disown him, right? Didn't take my brother to court and have myself legally separated from him.

0:32:35 Thomas: You didn't dislike your ex either but but

0:32:38 Tom: But I went to court to separate from this person because I could not be their family anymore like you understand that there's this is a big deal difference right like one thing for me to be like yeah I don't enjoy hanging out with bob but like bob and I never had a life together where we committed to be partners in life together I I'll give you another example cecil has a brother that he has disowned in everything but legally and like and his mom died he didn't tell his brother he didn't even tell him and I get that

0:33:06 Thomas: The things we learned. Okay. But that, so you can't use Cecil as an example. No, I'm just kidding.

0:33:14 Tom: No no I I get THAT right like because there are some relationships where you can be like yeah bob and I don't get along but we don't hate each other I just don't like we're just kind of indifferent to one another

0:33:23 Thomas: But the reason I bring up Bob and sorry, Eli, let me know if you want to get in there.

0:33:27 Eli: I smelled beard oil and I was just really worried me

0:33:30 Thomas: But the reason Because reason it's, I think that's an interesting comparison is, but the person who you would have shared grief in that moment is Bob. And if you, like, Bob is the person Who would be like, oh, remember that time when dad, whatever. And you, Like, that's the person you have those experiences with. The of this child, now, a lot depends on the age, but these are pretty young people. So, like the kid must have been very young, I would think. I mean, could have been in the teens, but also could have Been very young. And the person you have those core memories of their tiny, you know, like if, if for some reason Lydia and I divorced and I was with someone else and then like one of our kids died for one, I kill myself. So none of this matters.

0:33:43 Tom: And then yeah right

0:34:09 Eli: Tom

0:34:09 Thomas: But also those would be the one that all those memories are with. And it would be like a shared, it's not like we're getting remarried. It's just like a of mourning together because you're the ones who have the shared experience in that moment that you are both mourning. Your new partner, yeah, they're there for you, of course, but they the parent of the child. You know, like there's a bond there.

0:34:31 Tom: And I guess I guess there there's are parts of this that we don't know like we don's know how long like like you said like the kids could be teenagers the divorce could have been 10 years ago I think about like I guess like in my mind like I immediately go to my family right like yeah lived with me longer than she's lived with her dad donovan

0:34:32 Thomas: Good. Mm -hmm. Mm wow. I didn't even think about that. That's crazy.

0:34:50 Tom: Has lived with me for functionally all of the formative years of his life like like a lot depends on the circumstances that we don't know but I guess like when I think about it and maybe I'm coming at it too much from my own perspective so I'll acknowledge that but no my wife and I would be going through an experience together like like that like phrase like oh it's the mother of my child is a father my child like that's not really anything once you're divorced you have a new relationship it's just not it doesn't work that way anymore

0:35:18 Eli: Explain thomas when you divorce someone have you seen His Dark Materials you know how everyone one is connected to their avatar by a magical thread but it can be severed by a special knife made out of the black ice at the north pole that is what tom did to his ex -wife uh not his avatar anymore she's just a cat running around living her life and he tortured that angel to get where god is out of him

0:35:42 Thomas: Jeez I don't understand any of this it's

0:35:43 Tom: So no like I don't I that that's all madness like look like

0:35:48 Thomas: Very funny

0:35:48 Eli: To his Dark materials fans really loved that joke I insist you keep it he tortured the angel it's a great bit how

0:35:51 Tom: Like His Dark materials but that was just too much

0:35:55 Thomas: You know what the fuck he's talking about and you're not like okay

0:35:57 Eli: Dare you tom they

0:35:57 Tom: I've read His Dark Materials of course yeah look

0:35:58 Thomas: Who's dark Materials I don' t understand what who do you keep

0:35:59 Eli: Kill god at the end of that book it's gods it's god's they killed god at it rules anyways it's fine sorry tom you were saying people

0:36:03 Tom: I the other perspective that I would offer, and maybe it's because it's been so many years, it's not a fresh thing, is that with when somebody and a relationship with them, that phrase like mother of my child, father of my my child it has meaning but fairly swiftly if you have good separation and boundaries in you're divorced like that's not really a meaningful phrase anymore like what means something is your relationship with your kids and that doesn't intersect or interact with your ex's relationship with your kid so you're building two entirely separate families with different rules and and different values, and different boundaries, and different day -to -day routines. So like, somebody may have given birth to your child, but they're no longer part of your life. They don't wake up with you. They don't make decisions with you about your kids, except for like these big, broad decisions if you co -parent. You know, where do the kids live? What medicine should they be on? Those kinds of things. Like, you're parallel parenting. You're not really like cooperatively parenting in most circumstances. I'm not saying this is a rule for everybody but I'm saying this is very very often and most of the time the case so doesn't have like a reverent place in your life anymore because they gave birth to a child

0:37:21 Tom: That is also your child I know they're just holding hands but like I'm I'm asking is like why do you turn to for comfort when you're upset like me let me start Who do you turn to for comfort when you're upset? People you're close to or people you're not close to?

0:37:21 Thomas: Just holding hands they're just all they're doing then

0:37:36 Tom: Okay. The answer for me. Weird to me to

0:37:35 Eli: You're close to yeah

0:37:39 Thomas: I don't want to see you hugging Bob I do not want to say you hugging if you hug Bob that means you don't love Haley if when your dad dies I'm just saying it's

0:37:41 Eli: Here's

0:37:40 Tom: Divorce somebody and still be close. I genuinely don't think that's a good analogy. I love Bob.

0:37:51 Thomas: But that's not the amount the analogy is there I think you're maybe looking at the for a different point that I make the point and that I'm making is there's not a all -or -nothing nothing, comfort calculation. I hold someone's hand for a minute, that doesn't mean I haven't looked to Lydia for comfort. That's one interaction. If you hug Bob, it doesn't mean that, well, I needed to hug Bob because I couldn't get a hug from Haley. It's not or nothing like that to me.

0:38:19 Tom: I guess it feels different to me. I mean, like I do. I like Bob and I don't get along as people, but I love him. If Bob needs something, I'll be there for him. Bob is my brother and I love him.

0:38:28 Thomas: Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay

0:38:29 Tom: And that's what that's What makes it different?

0:38:29 Thomas: Maybe I was misunderstanding understanding your Bob relationship

0:38:31 Tom: Yeah, I love Bob.

0:38:32 Thomas: A little bit. Okay. Fair enough. Yeah,

0:38:33 Tom: Like I don' I have a hard time spending time with him because as a person we don't share the same values. But I love Bob. I just don't want to spend time with Him.

0:38:40 Thomas: What interesting. I wonder if these people would say they still have a love for their ex in a way, you know?

0:38:47 Tom: Probably. Right? Probably.

0:38:48 Thomas: Good. Good. We haven't let Eli say much.

0:38:49 Tom: And that, Thomas, is the place where

0:38:50 Thomas: We got to let him.

0:38:51 Tom: I struggle.

0:38:47 Eli: Thank you I I've often said that I don't talk enough up for the show.

0:38:55 Thomas: You definitely don't.

0:38:57 Eli: Here's my hot take. Okay. And here's my angle.

0:39:00 Thomas: Nevermind. We shouldn't let Elight talk. Actually, Tom, can you?

0:39:02 Eli: If

0:39:03 Tom: It's all right so if anybody read the book from

0:39:04 Eli: Anyone read, thank you. Those nerds are going to love that reference so hard. So hard. Anyways, here's My Hot Take, You're right? At a funeral of fucking strangers and someone's child has just died. Because here's what had to have happened and this is what blows my mind it's actually not about the dynamic and what would be part of my inside thoughts because I gotta admit if my wife held an ex's hand in a moment of grief I would be a little like I got a free hand oh you probably saw that my program was in my hand but I moved it if you uh I did have it but it's uh wide open now and his hands look sweaty from all the crying he's been doing so if you just want to oh look at that strong Strong, strong from all that playing card handling. I get, I really do get that impulse.

0:39:44 Thomas: Just like opening and closing. Ooh, ah. Got my hand. Take off your fake thumb.

0:39:55 Eli: Here's what I could not possibly understand. Mentioning it to that person, right? At the very beginning, we were like, who is the asshole?

0:40:00 Thomas: That's, yeah. I know. Yeah. The

0:40:03 Eli: The person who was like, hey, grieving mother, I know your kid died and the sun is out of the sky and you're just gonna, you're literally, youre as close to hell as Dante could envision, right, because it's just Olivia walking against the sun. Anyways, I thought it was a little weird when you held my husband's hand.

0:40:03 Thomas: Other person's the asshole. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's why I tried to ask in the beginning, who's more of the in the wrong? And it's definitely not the grieving mother.

0:40:26 Eli: Not just wrong. It's Not Just Asshole. It's evil. It's an thing to do. It's such an impossibly evil thing to do that I don't believe this Am I the Asshole is real. Because I think all human beings would have a moment where the fucking monkey part of us was like, Ha ha ha! Let it go! That

0:40:50 Tom: Yeah yeah and I I want to be clear like I said at the beginning intentionally like I don't think anyone is the asshole I don'T think that's the right term I think it's bizarre but bizarre does does not make something an asshole behavior right like I just don't understand the impulse I don't stand the impulse to reach for an x in a moment of of crisis that's a strange impulse to me is

0:40:56 Eli: Lady's the asshole but we can agree that the impulse to correct that behavior is evil

0:41:17 Tom: Insane it's insane it'S INSANE hundred percent so I want to be clear like a hundred percent yes like

0:41:23 Thomas: Reminds me of one of my favorite tweets of all time from Megan Amram when she said, man, I'm at a funeral and she's being a real corpsezilla.

0:41:31 Tom: Something's so terrible as your child dies and like Like somebody's behavior is fucking off during their grief process. Like, yeah, you just say, well, I guess they're fucking grieving the loss of a child and their behavior is off. I don't think that that's something one should impugn or like bring up or like interrogate somebody over or, you but I do like, like the take that I have is like, I can't get there. I can understand the reach.

0:42:00 Eli: Get that that I get but the lady who corrected is the asshole also can I say and this is this is where we're going to three bears it right not to get into controversial topics because I think we can all agree that whether we're bears or not you know I don't want to get it I don't want to get into it. Here's here's where I think I go crazy. Okay. Which is that I think if you are grieving your child, just being from my own experience, there's no behavior where I'd be like, that's inappropriate. Could go full. What's that thing where the guy fucks the grave. If you want to fuck your kid's grave, like I wouldn't get, I'm in Tom's camp of like, I don'T get it, but you know what?

0:42:32 Tom: Now you're way off what what is it okay

0:42:33 Thomas: I didn't need to need to go

0:42:34 Eli: You got to do what you got to thank.

0:42:34 Thomas: To that example.

0:42:36 Tom: No you took it as always too far yeah

0:42:38 Thomas: Okay, here's what I thought you were going to say, Eli. If your kid has died and you aren't actively changing the balance of the Supreme Court, then I don't know what you're doing. You know, what are you doing holding hands when you could be changing the bounce Supreme Court? If I were at the funeral if I were dressed it would be because someone else dressed me you know it'd be like I don't move or do things anymore if my kid died so if somebody like weekend at bernie's me and I was at there that's the you know like I wouldn't be to say I was even doing anything yeah

0:42:46 Eli: Well, there we go. Yeah, they can do whatever they want to my body.

0:43:10 Tom: I I've I've been to the funerals of two children and they were the saddest

0:43:15 Eli: They were his. Tom doesn't like to mention it because he gave the eulogy and that's standing up and saying they're not his family anymore.

0:43:20 Thomas: Actually like did I ever tell you cecil had a kid? And it's like, Jesus Christ.

0:43:25 Eli: You got a kid. Yeah, that's

0:43:27 Tom: God they they were so monstrously sad oh

0:43:30 Thomas: I don't think I could go to a kid's funeral. I don't know. Don' think there's no way. Like if it was someone I knew, cause I know that what I would do was die. And then it would be like, why is that grown man crying? That's not related to the kid. And there'd be like I don''t want, I couldn''t go. There's no way.

0:43:44 Eli: True. I I used to, I think I've talked about this before when we worked at FAO Schwartz, we used to do the make a wish tours. And a couple of times parents would come after the kid had passed away and I would would have to hide from them and they were just thanking us right they were just being like hey we kid had a wonderful time thank you so much for doing we'd show up early and put on a magic show for him or have him dance on the piano or whatever but like I had to hide from Paul McCartney because I knew I would start sobbing and thank him for all the music they would be like Eli there's a make -a -wish family and I'd be like alive kid or dead kid they'd be like dead kid and I'm like oh god go run into the break room and

0:44:20 Thomas: Man. We are so similar in that Eli. That is really funny. Like everything, even the Paul McCartney thing too yeah

0:44:25 Eli: Let me be clear not because I I didn't want to be there for those families. I absolutely wanted to, but I know that those people would leave being like the magician really made it about him, huh? Yeah, no, really made It About Him Susan. Thank you for saying it. Went in there for like five minutes. We spent 40 of it comforting the magician. Um...

0:44:45 Thomas: I even said I'm sorry for your loss why did I say that it's my kid yeah

0:44:46 Eli: It feels weird. It feels weird. I feel like that's not how it should have gone.

0:44:59 Eli: Alright, gentlemen, before we go, man loses three fingers in an accident. At the hospital, he asks the doctor, will I be able to drive on this hand? And the doctor says, I think so, but don't count on it.

0:45:13 Thomas: Love it oh it oh

0:45:19 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:45:58 Tom: It is bizarre it

0:45:59 Eli: You're bizarre. Cecil gonna murder us for you saying that on the show you have to tell us

0:46:03 Thomas: Actually, do I need to edit that out? Tell

0:46:04 Tom: He's brought this up on the show like he's so he's told this on unconscious so it's public information

0:46:04 Thomas: Me. Okay, but

0:46:07 Eli: It's been on the other show because Ha ha ha! Let it go! That

0:46:11 Thomas: Yeah, literally won't let me log in. So Andrew stole my notes. No, I don't know. This is fucking... I don't understand what this is. Okay, so no. Sorry. Go ahead.