DOD112: Make Up or Break Up?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:00 Eli: Right, gents, real quick, before we hop into the show, breaking news.

0:00:04 Thomas: What'd you do? What did you do is with

0:00:05 Eli: Yeah,

0:00:05 Tom: Uh -oh. This is never good when Eli has breaking news.

0:00:07 Eli: I know. Luckily, I know

0:00:09 Tom: I feel so

0:00:09 Eli: When I have breaking news, it usually is is

0:00:11 Tom: Much trepidation right now. Yeah,

0:00:13 Thomas: A heavy heart that we

0:00:15 Tom: Yeah, right? And this is how we go out of business.

0:00:16 Eli: So much sadness for everybody involved. But no, even better. This is breaking news and it's not about me doing a bad thing yet. Who knows? By the time this episode comes out, maybe there will be breaking news within said breaking news? No, I am very happy to say that Thomas Smith is back on the opening arguments podcast. Thomas, congratulations, sir.

0:00:28 Thomas: Yeah.

0:00:38 Thomas: Oh my god, thank you so much, this is... yeah, I can edit in... yeah,

0:00:44 Eli: You can actually put in the crowd roaring.

0:00:45 Tom: What do you mean, edit in? That crowd noise. I don't know what you would be editing in, Thomas Smith.

0:00:49 Eli: Yeah.

0:00:49 Thomas: Okay, I thought your balls were getting shocked and that was gas

0:00:51 Eli: Oh, and that's the noise he makes when it happens.

0:00:53 Tom: That's part of what the crowd is here for. I mean, what do you guys draw a crowd for? That's

0:00:54 Thomas: Of pain Oh,

0:00:54 Eli: Yeah, Yeah, it can be a twofer. It

0:00:58 Thomas: God, it's so eerie, it's been like almost exactly a year. It was like on one of the recordings back, my power was out just like it was out a year ago when we were trying to get, it's just crazy, like it's has been so weird. I cannot tell you how awful this year has been, it really, I can tell you gentlemen, and you will and have, but it, is just such a relief to be back on Opening Arguments. And I just have to ask everyone, if you would please check it out and go, you it a try and, and see if we can rebuild it, because I will die if we don't. So to put it mildly, I will die.

0:01:36 Eli: It's not just for not wanting you to die, Thomas, because I think that's a good enough reason. But But also, there is a new episode waiting of the new format of the show for those who sign up over at Patreon.com.

0:01:48 Thomas: Patreon.com/law. And that going to be more at patreon.com/law. really hope people check it out. I'm I'm working with Matt Cameron primarily at first, who's an immigration lawyer and criminal defense lawyer. And you've got to hear his first episode where we talk about some of his cases, because I asked him about like his success stories and also like some of his regrets. And man, it's gut -wrenching stuff. And this is just a day in the life of anyone who does anything related to immigration or criminal justice, at least on the defense side, I guess, in this country.

0:02:18 Eli: Yeah, really, really looking forward to hearing more from Matt. Spoilers, I am also a patron. But unlike Tom, I don't use our fucking Dear Old Dads account for my patron. You embezzler.

0:02:28 Tom: I did that one time By accident Alright

0:02:31 Eli: You embellish the books that kill podcast. I'll kill them. How about that?

0:02:33 Tom: You want your three dollars back? What do you want? You want three dollars, Eli Bosnick? I'll I'll fucking sell it to ya Hey, but importantly Importantly, I have not canceled that, and I don't intend to, because you're giving me grief about it.

0:02:37 Eli: I I want my three dollars back B, I want you to kill those ladies Yeah, I'm a simple man with simple requests, but Right.

0:02:48 Tom: I I won't.

0:02:48 Eli: You fucking have it. It's true, that's

0:02:49 Tom: No, the minute you give me grief, I'm going to cancel it. The minute you leave me griefed about it lives there forever, because I know you're too lazy to cancel it, too.

0:02:53 Eli: Fair. I'm too lazy, and I don't know how. My two greatest weaknesses, um, but I have already heard that episode with Matt, and man, I cannot wait to hear, I can't wait for you all to hear it. If you're non-patrons and if you have headed over there already and tossed a dollar their way, I can't for you to hear it, but yeah, check heck it out, patreon.com/law, uh, be happier for you. Thomas could not be happier.

0:02:58 Thomas: Thank you guys so much. I could not have gotten through any of this without you two dudes, for sure. It's not even a question. I seriously, folks, you have no idea

0:03:16 Eli: Oh,

0:03:17 Tom: Yeah. Oh, I feel like we take at least 75 % of the credit of your success.

0:03:26 Thomas: Yeah.

0:03:27 Eli: For sure Yeah.

0:03:28 Tom: I think anything good that's ever happened to you at this point is at least 75 % our...

0:03:28 Eli: Is all due

0:03:30 Thomas: Yeah. Most of my legal briefs written by Eli. You wouldn't know it, you wouldn't know it. No, that's a joke.

0:03:32 Eli: To us Yeah, that's true. People have wondered why it's taken so long. It's people just figuring out what I'm spelling, that's really what it's been. It's just been people trying to read my truly

0:03:38 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, the judge is like, I, I think this isn't crazy, but since I can't read it, I think he wins. I don't know, I've never seen this before. It was a technicality.

0:03:44 Eli: Yeah Yeah, I don't want to get into the technicalities, but we ended up with a receiver because I was trying to write the word retainer, so you know, uh, I still haven't gotten paid, but uh, it's all worked out at Eli's accidental law firm. He literally can't tell you.

0:03:51 Thomas: It was really good.

0:04:01 Thomas: That's a good one, oh, I cannot tell you, folks, how much, how much has gone into this. It's, someday hopefully I can tell the story, I Literally

0:04:01 Tom: Yeah.

0:04:12 Tom: It's Not, he's by law he cannot tell you, yeah.

0:04:12 Thomas: Can't. But Just know that it's like I've been on a fucking, uh, Eli, give me a good literary reference, but like just an odyssey, but you know, a reference that seems

0:04:23 Eli: An odd, but the Odyssey is a pretty good literary reference.

0:04:24 Tom: Odyssey is is good, actually.

0:04:26 Eli: For the for an Odyssee I

0:04:26 Tom: Odyssee works

0:04:24 Thomas: Yeah, well, that one, I thought was so basic. That I thought that it was too basic. I thought you'd make us sound smarter if you, you know, is there some obscure one?

0:04:27 Tom: Just fine, you

0:04:31 Eli: Feel like the od dyssee is a smart guy, I think it's

0:04:32 Thomas: Okay. All right. So I've been on an odyssey.

0:04:34 Tom: Know we can go, we can start with Homer if we need to get more esoteric, from there, I don't know where we need to go, but, but if

0:04:38 Eli: Yeah,

0:04:40 Thomas: Love you all. Please go check it out. Patreon.com/law. And I appreciate it so much. Thank you guys both for letting me do this. And I really truly will never forget it. Tom and Eli, you will not find better friends in the earth and sucks that they're not your friends, listeners. Sorry. Hate to say it. Hate Hate to break it to you, but, you know, yeah.

0:04:56 Eli: Yeah, it does suck. It does suck, yeah.

0:04:59 Tom: You're a patriot at a high enough level, I mean, we can work something out, you know, you get Eli's cell phone number.

0:05:06 Eli: Yeah.

0:05:08 Clip: I'm the cool dad. That's my thing. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can. Complete and honor dependent. I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired. Yelling is the only part of being a father that I enjoy.

0:05:34 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's learned its lesson this time. I'm Tom Curry, I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen. So, this

0:05:43 Thomas: Emergency sewed emergency we an entire recording planned a whole thing I wrote out like a lot about no I I didn't, I can't even lie. There's no way no one will believe that. But I, in my mind mentally, yeah, I don't know how, but I was ready. We're no joke though. I was right for this topic. And then just casually let slip something in the pre -show and we're like, Hey, new plan.

0:05:53 Tom: Did Yeah. I

0:05:59 Eli: Thomas writing.

0:06:08 Tom: I Did Yeah. It, we got a cover. So Donovan, uh, bless his heart. Donovan and his girlfriend, they had broken up a few weeks back. The breakup lasted a few week and, alas, a lack, to my great chagrin and disappointment. But to his joy and happiness, he and said girlfriend are back together. So, boo.

0:06:30 Eli: Boo, you hate to see it.

0:06:32 Thomas: You love you saying they had broken up. That's like Lee Harvey Oswald being like, Like, oh, JFK passed away.

0:06:39 Eli: Yeah, he's no longer with us.

0:06:42 Tom: Yeah, Donovan, Donivan broke up with her. I very proud of him. He set some boundaries with her. He had some conversations with her. I think he was really clear with her. I think the breakup that he did was really genuinely, like, I saw his text messages and I was like, "That's great, man, no notes I was

0:06:57 Thomas: Ah, a text breakup. Wait, did we talk about that? Was it really a text break up? Is that how the kids do it now? Oh, yeah.

0:07:01 Tom: Was a text breakup because she would Well no, they were having a difficult time He was like hey we really need to talk Can you get on the phone And she didn't want to get onthe phone And so he was like alright If you don't wantto get onthephone here's how it's done But I will say I read an interesting article. Haley read it to me, actually, about the virtues of the tax breakup. And so it's

0:07:21 Thomas: Well, on that note, totally I remember being a kid. This was my first ever girlfriend. I had the same thing where it's totally the kid brain of like, well, if I don't talk to them, they can't break up with me.

0:07:31 Eli: They can't break up with me. Yeah. It was the perfect crime.

0:07:33 Tom: We were.

0:07:34 Thomas: Like, like Somehow You're like, you're in a relationship on a technicality, as though that does something. Yeah, it's such a perfect kid brain thing.

0:07:42 Eli: I Think that mythos is largely, and I want to say here, because I don't want to get too, too chill about this. I think the mythos of, like, it's rude to break up with someone by text is limited in the day and age where so much of our communication is by text. Like, when we were kids, I think it wasn't cool to break up with someone via text because we all got phones four minutes ago, right?

0:07:55 Thomas: Well, or Oh, I thought you were going to say because Tom's generation, it was you had to not break up by

0:08:06 Eli: You had to carve it into the bronze tablet and throw it at her.

0:08:06 Thomas: Yeah yeah

0:08:08 Tom: Yeah, it was it was gauche to do it with smoke signal. That was rude. Yeah, I will Say it was very gauche. Yeah.

0:08:09 Eli: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yep.

0:08:10 Thomas: But like In the day, the problem was like, oh, don't break up over the phone. Meaning for you young kids, like calling someone to break up. Like back in the day it was, and I guarantee this is Tom's mentality. Like it'd be like, no, you got to look him square in the eye and say, I no longer see you.

0:08:20 Eli: Yeah. You gotta look him square in the eye Yeah. It's like people who think hunting is cool when they do it right, they're like, no, no, no, I killed the animal inexpertly, and I'm like, Oh, cool.

0:08:34 Thomas: Yeah. That sounds worse.

0:08:39 Eli: That's great, awesome.

0:08:39 Thomas: Yeah, like How, how, when you're getting executed, you really want someone who's doesn't do that for a living, you know, just, just be like, yeah.

0:08:42 Eli: Who's doing it for the first time for money. Yeah. Whether

0:08:47 Thomas: I bet, I bet that axe goes there roughly. Yeah, no, cool, yeah.

0:08:47 Tom: I I think Think it depends on how long you've been with somebody as to, as to, like, the level of Like Intimacy You know, like, I would not want to be broken up with by Hayley, for example, over text message. That would be a little rough. That would feel like, that would feel like a lot.

0:08:56 Eli: Or not you can execute them. Hayley.

0:09:07 Eli: Hayley. Please if you're You're planning to break up with Tom, please do it.

0:09:10 Tom: If if She doesn't let her do it over text, actually. Like that, that would be, I'll just get my text messages, keep driving. I'd just be like, wherever I'm at, it's not home. I'd expect, okay, well, I just guess I'll just keep driving this where whatever direction this thing's pointed. I'm just going to keep it pointed in that direction until I hit water. Here we go.

0:09:12 Eli: Yeah. You take off the shock watch and, uh, that beautiful symphony thing from the end of Cruel Intention starts to play.

0:09:35 Eli: Going on a Disney cruise now. Singles cruise. Singles Disney cruise. With Tom.

0:09:39 Thomas: Tom's idea of hell yeah singles Disney cruise, I

0:09:43 Tom: God, I would meet other Disney adults.

0:09:45 Thomas: Was always unsure what to do with that complaint though, too, like if your friend was like and they, they did it over text and I'm always like, well, so should we appeal the breakup then? Like, what are we doing with that information? Like, maybe a judge will overrule it if it's

0:09:58 Eli: Did you move to the court to have the breakup annulled by the?

0:09:59 Thomas: Yeah I don't yeah

0:10:00 Tom: Okay, but I can help you with that. If somebody's complaining to you as a friend about the way they were broken up with, the response is, what an asshole. It doesn't matter what else they say, right? It could be like, and they baked me cookies afterwards. Be like, what a asshole. It's just the easiest thing for you to do.

0:10:15 Eli: Yeah.

0:10:08 Thomas: No, I know oh okay hold on, I think there's a there's something going on here, I think you're interested interested in keeping a a friend than telling them the truth. Okay. I get it. Yeah.

0:10:23 Eli: Correct. I, can I also say it's very hard to do that as a man? Cause I don't know about you guys, but whenever any man in my life has complained about a breakup, they're so completely and obviously the villain. Like, and the women, it's the opposite, Right? Every woman, that she's always been like, "Well, you know, he did shoot my dad," and I just, that was a line for me. And dudes are like, and then listen to this, she got pregnant with a third kid and you're just like, "Oh man, what a jerk." One of you is, oh gosh.

0:10:24 Tom: I am very much.

0:10:33 Thomas: They're in the wrong. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah I know, that's so true. There's the dichotomy because, that honestly, that's, that's my trouble with, with your comment time, even though you're objectively speaking correct, and the friend, uh, but when it's a dude it's always like, "Yeah, no, I bet you did, kind of suck, that's probably what happened," and when it's a girl it's like, "Oh, the text was a bad way," because it's not fast enough, there needed to be something, there needed be a faster way for this shitty dude to break up with you, just so you're out of this bullshit, like that's My, yeah.

0:11:20 Eli: Sniper. Rifle.

0:11:21 Thomas: Is there anything faster than the speed of light? Because I think data travels at that, that would have been a better her way. Oh,

0:11:23 Eli: Who?

0:11:23 Tom: Well, And I remember talking with our nanny, our, so our nany, like she's like a member of our, I know I've mentioned this before, please don't send me your emails about how she's an employee and not really a member, yes she is, she talks to us all the time, like it's kind of dude.

0:11:38 Eli: Sent you that either, what a Fucking bizarre.

0:11:40 Tom: We've gotten terrible shitty emails because

0:11:41 Eli: I want to drill on that. Who's like, "Tom, please, do, do not address the servants by name." We get so many fucking wacky ass pieces of feedback. And honestly, I find it refreshing that someone's like, please don't befriend the help.

0:11:42 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:11:56 Thomas: No.

0:11:56 Eli: Like, where's that person? Hit me up, that person.

0:11:57 Tom: Right. It's yeah.

0:12:00 Thomas: Guys, both of you remember that thing I said a second ago about telling the truth rather than keeping a friend? Um, I'm a little uncomfortable with the talking about an employee as the family member. I don's know, maybe I sent that email. Don't get where they're coming from.

0:12:10 Tom: So, yeah, I guess. But like you got to understand, like the dynamic that gets established when somebody is in your home. So our nanny works for us 18 hours a week. So she's not here like all the time. So people have also written like, oh, my God, you have this enormous like it's 18 hours week. It's not an enormous amount of help. It's a few hours, three days a week. But like she's over a lot, though, for years now. She's been in our house and been in her life. And she started when she was like 19. And and her parents are not always the most supportive.

0:12:40 Thomas: This

0:12:53 Tom: And And like, we've made her meals and brought her things. And like when she needed a medical procedure, I actually drove her to the procedure and waited for her while she had it. Like, this is not just somebody that like I write a check to. Like this is somebody that we care about.

0:13:08 Thomas: Not like a, "When you're here, you're family" yeah.

0:13:09 Eli: Motherfuckers, I see Cecil two hours a week.

0:13:10 Thomas: Yeah.

0:13:11 Tom: Yeah. I mean, it's to the point, to be honest, where like we don't need a nanny. My kids are like 17 and 13, but I just don't want to let her go. So, yeah, So, yeah, I just I just don't want to let her go because like she's in college and she's important to our family.

0:13:15 Thomas: Break up up with her via text. No, I'm just kidding. For sure. Yeah. It's good clarification.

0:13:27 Tom: So, yeah.

0:13:22 Eli: Yeah. No. Yes, absolutely. And Everyone who says that's not real. First of all, I can't believe this from our audience, right? I'm used to the fucking shit other side from our from our audience though. You found family motherfuckers getting on there with your profile pictures of your fursonas together.

0:13:29 Tom: Yeah. Right.

0:13:41 Thomas: No, it comes from the leftist. Less Like any employer is evil type thing. And so calling them family is a way to like exploit them. That's where it comes comes from.

0:13:46 Eli: Oh,

0:13:52 Tom: It does.

0:13:53 Eli: You fucking wish the exploitation was going the other way with me and our nanny. Why fuck, if our nany walked in the house tomorrow and was like, Eli, you gotta let me shoot you in the leg three times or I'm not gonna be the nanny here anymore, I'd be like, yep, absolutely. Do I get to pick which leg, and I again, I cannot emphasize enough, this is not a deal breaker for me. You can absolutely pick whatever leg you want. Yeah.

0:14:05 Thomas: Yeah. The power dynamic goes entirely the other way. Yeah.

0:14:18 Tom: It does. It does, you know, it does, though, like, because at some point this is somebody that like your kids have grown to love, love, and so it's not like this is somebody that you can be like, well, you're supposed to be here at 3:30 and you're here at 4, and I'm really gonna have to dock your pay 30 minutes. It's, it doesn't work like that. Instead, you're like, hey, thanks for coming at all, I really do appreciate that. Now, um, if you were to be more on time, and I'm not saying you have to be, it really is sort of like that.

0:14:19 Eli: Exactly.

0:14:31 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:14:44 Tom: Because like again, like these people are part of your family in a way that like is impossible possible to separate meaningfully financially.

0:14:44 Thomas: It is interesting and

0:14:52 Eli: This woman held my infant son in her arms when he wept and through her embrace learned that the world would be gentle and kind to him, you think I'm gonna ever dock her pay for for being fuckin' late? Are you all crazy?

0:15:03 Tom: I know. Yeah. Our nanny like calls in sick for a couple of weeks, she gets the same pay as if she was here the whole time. Like I just pay her for the whole month. I'm like, here you go. You got paid for the, like, you didn't work this month. Like, okay. Like doesn't matter to me. Here you go? Like,

0:15:17 Thomas: Honestly, that's probably why I don't have a nanny is I would, I would have a hard time being like, well, guess you own a third of everything we have, sorry, I - I don't know. I don't - I - this seems impossible to be fair. Like, it just - it's like the same way I have a hard - I have to just forget the fact that the teachers at their little schools don't get paid anything, by the way, actively working in every political way I can to try to change that, which is apparently none, because fucking nothing can be - anyway.

0:15:24 Tom: Yeah.

0:15:42 Thomas: So, yeah. But

0:15:41 Tom: Nothing ever happens

0:15:42 Eli: It's not on the docket. It's, they never puttin' up Prop 21, pay teachers like human beings.

0:15:42 Tom: Or changes yeah yeah a

0:15:44 Thomas: I - yeah. Yeah. It's - ah, it' the worst, Cause I just hate that knowledge. They're so important to like, they're so important to me, these kids. And then we're like, yeah, I'm comfortable with someone making, you know, zero fucking dollars an hour taking care of my precious little baby. The most important thing I have. We probably pay more for people to like watch our fucking possessions in some way. Like a fucking, I've

0:16:09 Eli: Cops, cops, about how much you pay your local cop versus your local teacher. You pay them in the exact same way, and your cop right now is just kickin' the shit out of some guy for being poor.

0:16:10 Tom: Security. Guard a Security guard. Yeah.

0:16:10 Thomas: Exactly. Yeah. And You know who's actually going to to protect your kid if there's a school shooter, not the cop, I'll just tell you that. Yeah. Cops

0:16:27 Tom: Right. Yeah. So

0:16:27 Eli: Teacher, are out there with fuckin' lunch trays, throwing them like ninja stars because you're we're

0:16:32 Thomas: Are like, well, there's 100 of us, we're all armed up, we have a better weaponry, but yeah.

0:16:36 Eli: Gonna wait in the hall. Seems

0:16:37 Tom: Yeah.

0:16:37 Thomas: We'll be out here, yeah. It seems a little hairy in there.

0:16:38 Tom: Yeah.

0:16:39 Eli: Like Mrs.

0:16:39 Thomas: Good luck

0:16:40 Eli: Smitherson's really got it with the lunch trays, we're going to let her work it out.

0:16:42 Thomas: Though. Good you know, what, good luck. So the breakup up

0:16:44 Tom: Return back to our conversation so so Yeah, Nanny made a good point one time.

0:16:46 Thomas: Yeah

0:16:49 Eli: You You think my nanny isn't part of my family, you're not part of our family, I'll spend the whole episode in this zone.

0:16:54 Eli: I'm never right. When we get audience feedback, this is good, this is a feeling. I feel justified, I feel free at last, right?

0:16:51 Thomas: Yeah No,

0:16:58 Tom: She She. But she was talking to me one time about a breakup, about a guy she was with, and I was encouraging her. I was like, hey, this is not a healthy relationship. You should probably like leave this relationship. And we're talking about she was like. Yeah, I'm going to do it. And then she made a really good point, which I hadn't thought of, which I think is worth saying, is that she would prefer to break up over text because she's afraid that if that breakup goes poorly, her safety might be endangered.

0:17:24 Tom: Injured because and that's something, like as guys we don't have to worry about, right, like for the most part

0:17:24 Eli: You

0:17:24 Thomas: Fucking kidding. Oh, oh oh here, let me propose a rule, I was gonna say, all feel like all women should be exempt from that. Like any woman anywhere should be able to break up via text. That's a firm rule in my book. That's like, cause yeah, like that feeling of, well, if he gets mad, is he going to like, that must, God, that must be so scary.

0:17:37 Tom: Yeah that As soon as she said that, I was like immediately taken aback, it was one of those like really huge male privilege moments because I never had to think about it. I was like, well yeah, we'll break up like you've been together for like a long time, you should probably break up in person. She's like, yeah, I'm afraid though that like he might get violent or get angry if I break up with him. And so like I don't want to. And I was, was like, holy fuck, it never in a million years would have occurred to me, never would have occurred to him. Yeah, yeah.

0:18:04 Eli: Donald Gambino has an amazing uh for when he was a stand-up, which is like, when men talk about their crazy exes, they've got a funny story, when women talk about their crazy X's, they've a restraining order. But

0:18:16 Thomas: Yeah.

0:18:16 Tom: Right, let's get to the topic of the show. So, oh wait, but hey, is there anything worse than geez,

0:18:18 Thomas: Yeah.

0:18:21 Eli: Hey, you know the only thing worse than the constant and unstoppable violence against men against women, it's the auto ads, the spousal abuse use of this podcast. You might feel like there's no way out, but there is. Over at patreon.com/dearolddads, where for as little as a dollar an episode, you get a special extended commercial-free version of every single show and a little parenting story at the end of every show, when Tom feels like doing one, does he feel like doing whatever episode? No, he can't be asked. But But some of the episodes, he will. We also got monthly bonus episodes. This month, we did some more questions. We did some More AMA questions. Got some fun in there. And, yeah, check it out. Give us your money

0:18:29 Tom: All right

0:19:08 Thomas: Yeah.

0:19:08 Eli: At Patreon.com. I don't know where this voice came from. Patreon. Com forward slash Dear Old Dads.

0:19:15 Tom: So Donovan got back together, as I just mentioned, with his, with girlfriend, now girlfriend, Boo Boo, not a fan of that decision, we, you know, but like it's his decision to make, he's he's 17, coming up on 18 any minute now, so okay fine, but that got us to talking about getting back with exes, and I'm curious where you guys land on that, because what we basically told ourselves was, all right, fine, like whatever he's going to do, he's gonna do, this is a lesson everybody has to learn once, is that this time we told him the same thing, like we're like, yeah, yeah, everybody does this.

0:19:21 Eli: Boo, Donovan.

0:19:49 Tom: I've done it, you know, your mom's done it. Everybody has at some point done this.

0:19:49 Thomas: Yeah well it's it's proportional to age really, right, like when you're young, I think a big part of it too is when you're still in school, you break up and then you, you know, you look around for five minutes, you're like, oh, it's all the same people, that, okay, so I guess, should we do this again, there's nobody changed, there's no different people.

0:20:08 Eli: You're in my geometry class.

0:20:08 Thomas: Yeah

0:20:09 Tom: Well, you grew up where there were only seven girls in the entire six -county region, too.

0:20:10 Thomas: Yeah that's could be part of it, that could be part

0:20:12 Eli: That's true, yeah.

0:20:13 Tom: So, like, that's – your

0:20:15 Eli: Two of them were your sisters. So it was really a limiting Now, in Angel's Camp, that wasn't an eliminating factor, however, that's a nice thing about it, is you could if you had enough meth. Oh,

0:20:15 Thomas: Of it yeah

0:20:16 Tom: Choices were somewhat limited. There's so I feel like the breakup, get back together, And then inevitably break up again is a lesson just about everybody has to learn at some point. I've done it. I have absolutely like been broken up with and then like something, something, you know, six, eight months later.

0:20:28 Thomas: We couldn't afford meth.

0:20:41 Eli: Hell yeah yeah

0:20:44 Thomas: Did that work just like physics wise, because you can't see her. Were you like, hey, hey,

0:20:49 Tom: Well, that's, well,

0:20:49 Eli: She was in a quantum state while you guys worked it out. They broke up she was inside a box while they made up and he couldn't open it.

0:20:52 Thomas: Should we get back together, if you can hear this.

0:20:55 Tom: that'S, that''s, I mean, s where do you think my policy came from? You know, So I was like, well nope, that doesn't ever happen to me again, like that's, I have a, I have a general sort of feeling in my life that I'm very comfortable making any mistake, any mistake, don't care what it is, and I'll forgive myself for it, but never twice. I will never make the same mistake twice.

0:21:01 Eli: Yeah that's a bad rule, just want to throw that out there. That's a bad rule. Do

0:21:18 Tom: Okay, maybe

0:21:18 Thomas: So you get one one free murder.

0:21:20 Eli: I committed a murder. Yes, I've

0:21:20 Thomas: Yeah.

0:21:22 Tom: Any is little aggressive, but I mean any reasonable mistake, but I'll never make the same one twice.

0:21:25 Eli: Eaten things that aren't food that was wrong, but it won't happen again. Legos, I ate a bunch of Legos. Yeah.

0:21:33 Tom: We, I'm curious where you guys, where you guys fall on this. Thank you Eli, right, here

0:21:36 Thomas: Well, it's

0:21:37 Eli: Never, never ever get back together, and this is something because again, I, I I have much younger friends and I say it all the time, I, number one piece of advice I give people is I say, you're gonna have a breakup and you're, are going to feel compelled to have a big long talk because three dramas you saw in your formative years said the word closure. You don't know what the word closer means. You have no idea.

0:22:02 Thomas: Meaningless.

0:22:02 Eli: Think of the definition in your head. Now Google it. You see how there is a totally different things. You don't want closure. Nobody gets closure. That concept doesn't play out as anything. What you're going to do is you're going to talk until four 45 in the morning. And then you're gonna be like, Like, I don't know, I guess let's just get back together then. And they're going to be like, yay! And then you're going fall asleep like a Vietnam soldier face down in the mud in the jungle. And you're gonna wake up back in the hell you started in. No big, long talks. Not working out, I'm so sorry. Maybe I'm the bad guy, maybe you're the good guy. Let's work it out in therapy. Ta -ta!

0:22:02 Thomas: That's nothing. Yeah.

0:22:39 Thomas: Interesting.

0:22:40 Tom: So... It, that is, that is, that the breakup too, because I like that breakup. That's a good breakup.

0:22:44 Eli: Yeah, breakups gotta be quick.

0:22:45 Tom: Agree with that, no post-mortem.

0:22:47 Eli: No.

0:22:47 Tom: Like, after the breakup, no post mortem, I completely agree with that.

0:22:52 Eli: That's not their baggage to bear anymore. More. And I will tell you, and I will tell you why I will, I will be serious for one moment and I Will tell you why it is because in those conversations, which everyone is pretending is to mature adults finding closure, which again, it never is right. It would be impossible to be that I couldn't break up with any person. I love in my grandma. I can never see you again, but I'm going to handle this with the dignity and diploma required from our long friendship together. No, You can't end a relationship with someone you love as a mature and thoughtful person. You can't do it. You can do it, or you've already done so much damage that you're just like at the fucking war crimes trial of the relationship, just dead facedly explaining all the fucking pictures of her mother that you broke on purpose.

0:22:52 Tom: Yeah, that's 100%. Yeah.

0:23:21 Thomas: Holy crap.

0:23:39 Eli: Yeah, there's no good outcome for that conversation and

0:23:41 Thomas: I relate to none of this. I related to none none of this.

0:23:43 Eli: Anyone who says that there is here's my hot take here's my hot take anyone who says that there is, is just emotionally dumping onto the other person and then is like, "Yeah, I feel great, like I'm really glad we had this talk," and the other version's like, "Yeah, me too, I love how you told me everything I did wrong in the entire relationship" and then really psycho babbled at me for, oh look, it's six in the morning, seven hours, and then at the end I'm still sad and just can't move on in the same ways because you've rationalized all of it to me since midnight last Night. Mm.

0:24:17 Tom: Well, and it's also colored by the fact that most of the time, I'd say 95 % of the time somebody breaks up with the other person that doesn't want to be broken up with. That's how that almost always works. Again, I'm leaving some wiggle room, so whatever. But like most of the time, somebody's like, "But I don't want to be broken up," up with the other person's like, "Tough shit, guess what, I've done before this conversation already, worked through most of my feelings about this before you knew they existed, and I've made a decision." So one person's coming at this having already done a lot of emotional work the other one hasn't done because they're getting fucking hijacked by, guess what, we're not together now, and then, like, the post-mortem is like, what does that do for anybody? Like, gets something out of that, that's

0:24:26 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, okay.

0:24:28 Eli: -hmm Yeah Yeah

0:25:01 Thomas: Two separate questions. I don't know about this whole post -mortem thing. That's not something I guess I'll agree with that. Cause I don'T think I've ever done that. I DON'T know what that is. Is that a common of it together? Together?

0:25:11 Tom: Where almost everybody has the debrief after the relationship breaks up and they, they talk they talk it out. Yeah, most people break up and then they still are in communication for a week or three, and they just kind of talk, and they let sort of things that, we're still going to be friends, and, you know, you're still one of the most important people, I still want to talk to you every day, and, well, we should talk about what went wrong, and like all that sort of bullshit that happens that's

0:25:15 Eli: It's the worst, yep 100 Yep

0:25:14 Thomas: Really? Geez. I don't think I've ever done that, ever.

0:25:34 Tom: Super super common yeah Yeah.

0:25:37 Thomas: Well, I mean, again, I'm a little weird. I've only had, like, one major breakup or something. I mean I had some stupid high school ones, but, yeah. I only had like the one, so I guess that's a little different.

0:25:33 Eli: Lucky Fucking you Thomas Oh Tom I'm with you, I was there my entire 20s Thank you put

0:25:49 Thomas: Okay.

0:25:48 Tom: Yeah. Super common. Super unnecessary. You should break you up like you're firing somebody. Right. It should just be like, hey, I'm sorry. I looked at the team and when I 10

0:25:55 Thomas: How do you fire someone, Tom?

0:25:58 Eli: A 10 minute meeting on their calendar, don't tell them why.

0:26:00 Tom: Minutes, what are you wasting eight minutes for? When I do have to letting people go as part of my job, of I I have to let it go. I have a lot to let people go. And those conversations are never five minutes long. They are always under five minutes, that's

0:26:01 Eli: Yeah.

0:26:11 Thomas: Yeah. There's not a lot, yeah?

0:26:12 Eli: Of course. I

0:26:14 Tom: That's it, this is not a complicated conversation, like, remember when you used to work here? You don't, I mean, I would, I'm never mean, I'm not a dick, but

0:26:20 Eli: Yeah.

0:26:14 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Just be like, yeah, soulless corporation. Soulless corporation. Yeah, I know. All right. See you. See you around.

0:26:23 Tom: Yeah, yeah, well, the thing is, like, like what I've always analogized it to for other people that I've taught this to, do this, I'm like, look, you're breaking up and becoming a villain, so don't try to like make this better for you, because that's what most people do. And I think think they do the same thing in a breakup, right? They try to make it better for themselves, and they try to like sell to the other person why it's a good idea that they just broke your heart, or whatever. And it's like, well, we could just not do that. You could just be like, "Yeah, I'm the villain now." That's all right.

0:26:33 Thomas: Yeah I got a question for you guys. You feel an obligation to tell, if, like, so let's say you're breaking up with someone, do you feel that there's an obligation to tell them the truthful reason why, like, do you owe them the honesty of like

0:27:04 Eli: Depends on the reason.

0:27:05 Tom: An obligation? No, no, no.

0:27:06 Thomas: Why, why?

0:27:09 Eli: Probably not. Almost 99% chance not because it's not going to help anybody.

0:27:09 Tom: No, an obligation obligation

0:27:09 Thomas: Okay. Just wondering. Well, some amount of, I'm not saying, yeah, a fucking court of justice is good, but like, do you feel like, ah, I kind of owe it of out decency. I owe some honesty to the person. Or is it the kind of thing where You're like, I'd rather, well, what's funny is oftentimes it would probably be better for the person, because I imagine they have some pattern they're doing every time that sucks and they won't.

0:27:14 Tom: To do that? No. No. No.

0:27:24 Eli: No.

0:27:34 Tom: Not your obligation anymore.

0:27:36 Thomas: Well no, it's not. Yeah. Okay. But like, Like, do you think it would be better if people just did that though?

0:27:38 Tom: Yeah.

0:27:42 Eli: Can I say as someone who's been on the receiving end of a lot of that honesty? Nope. I'm all good. Thanks. All good with all of the honesty. Also, I'll throw this out there because I have been the receiver of said honesty. Some of it's been honesty, but a lot of it has just been, hey, I thought of some super mean shit to say to you. Going to say it now in a caring tone of voice. And I was a person you loved. So you're going to think about it every day for the rest of your life. Right. Let me tell you all something. When I broke up with my last girlfriend, who is a truly lovely person, like an amazing, amazing person, and our breakup was hard because we'd been together for five years, uh, she said to me at that time, "You think anybody's gonna ever want to hear what you have to say?"

Because I wanted to be a performer, uh, I think about that still all the time. Now, let's be clear, I have numerical evidence that at least a couple people want to hear what I have to say, and a few people think that I can grant a chuckle every now and then, but I'll tell you, every time Mr. Sads comes to town, that quote sure comes right back on the blackboard. "You think anyone's gonna want to hear what you have to say?" Because that person loved you and saw you for what they are, and they don't go like, "Hey, sorry, I'm gonna say something mean just because I'm in a tremendous amount of pain right now, so please do not take this seriously," and think about it

0:28:04 Tom: Yeah,

0:28:27 Thomas: Wow. Okay.

0:28:34 Tom: But

0:29:00 Eli: Every day for the rest of your life.

0:29:00 Thomas: Okay. I, yeah, I suppose, you know, like the necessary part of my question was that you're not going to say some hurtful bullshit. That's not actually true. Yeah. I don't think that should, that shouldn't be a rule.

0:29:08 Eli: But I don't think people know it.

0:29:08 Tom: I Don't think anybody in that emotionally fraught moment of breaking up a relationship that has any significance can be trusted to do that work.

0:29:17 Thomas: Not, no, you have a reason why, no put it to yourself. You're breaking up with someone. You have your reasons why you're doing that. Do do your friends, do they have a problem with you? Do you share them with the person? Just hypothetical relationship.

0:29:19 Tom: Yeah. No, Yeah, no. Uh-uh, no.

0:29:29 Thomas: What is, do you send like a form letter? That's like to whom it may concern the relationship you're too far.

0:29:28 Eli: Tom,

0:29:29 Tom: Yeah, Will tell you what I said to my my ex -wife when I left her.

0:29:37 Eli: Doesn't live in his house anymore.

0:29:38 Thomas: Yeah.

0:29:38 Tom: I, it wasn't that much different. I said, "I don't love you the way a man should love his wife, and I can't live here anymore." And I had a duffel bag in the car, and that conversation wasn't much longer than that. Was it was the only explanation I needed. I felt like I needed to give. I had all the time I had to. But I recognized, or at least I feel like, those were mine to deal with. Weren't sharing in the moment anymore of dealing. I'm breaking up. In my mind, we're breaking up now, not in an hour, not in three hours. So that work is my work to do. Those feelings are my feelings to process. The only obligation I have is to say, hey,

0:29:44 Thomas: Hmm. Right. But I

0:30:16 Tom: This is over now.

0:30:16 Thomas: Pretend your ex -partner wasn't the worst pretend, pretend you had like, pretend, take all the like hardcore stakes out of it. And you had a decent dating relationship for a little bit of time. And then you're kind of feeling like, eh, you just, for reasons, maybe you are not seeing yourselves as compatible long-term, whatever. Like, don't you do the same thing where it's just like, I'm done, bye.

0:30:20 Tom: Yeah.

0:30:39 Tom: Respect, then, there's no real feedback back you're giving them about like relationshiping at all. What you're doing is expressing like, hey, look, this relationship for me isn't really working out very well. I'm not feeling the way I need to feel in this relationship, and so I think we're going to end it and that's it

0:30:54 Thomas: So that, so if I was broken up with, that would drive me nuts in that way. And so I'm just wondering if you, if you. If it's not someone you're breaking up with because they're horrible and you hate them and you need to get out in this terrible situation. If it genuinely like, ah, kind of differences of some kind. If someone just broke up with me with almost no explanation, that's going to haunt my life forever where I'm like, what, what happened? And so I'm just wondering if you, you think there's any obligation to share? This hasn't happened to me by the way. So I'm not, this is not like some deep seated.

0:31:16 Tom: Sure

0:31:18 Eli: Sure it'd be amazing if Lydia had broken up with you this morning. You're like, you don't think that maybe after four years of marriage and six kids someone is owed a very simple questionnaire? Made a Google form, it was me and

0:31:24 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:31:37 Tom: Broken up with by somebody. I'll very little explanation. I couldn't, I didn't really understand what had gone wrong, and they did not help me understand what we're on. And the end of the day, I think that was a huge growth opportunity for me to. It did hurt, and I was like confused by it. I think it didn't do good things for me in the moment, but long term I think there was a nice growth opportunity to reflect back and say, hey, that's at the day, like, if somebody doesn't want me, I don't want them right back, right? I want my person to want me, and that is all that it needs to be done like and then but that revelation, that emotional revelation, made all the difference in the world. It's like, look, it doesn't matter if I did anything right or did anything wrong, like I'll just hash that out on my own

0:32:05 Thomas: For sure. Yeah? No, it's not. It's yeah. Yeah.

0:32:17 Eli: And can I say this as someone who has been tricked into that conversation, right, who's been like, okay, quick clean breakup, and then I've been like, hello, hello, person. And this has happened to me a bunch of times. Hello, person. I don't think it's working out anymore. I wish you all the best. And they were like, whoa, whoa, like, want I to have some communication here? You care about me. We should have a conversation so I can grow and be better. And I was like, oh, okay. Yeah, I mean, I guess I do owe you that respectful conversation because I do respect you and I did like you a lot. And they're like, yeah, let's just have some normal communication. And I'm like, okay, and they're like, yes, so what was it? And I'm like, well, it was reason X, and they go, oh, well, I disagree agree with that. And you're like, oh, so should we argue about that for the next 19 hours until you call me a piece of shit? Yeah, let's do it. All right, starting and now don't do it

0:32:54 Thomas: Yeah. No, that's not it. Yeah,

0:32:54 Tom: Yeah

0:33:02 Thomas: Yeah. That's not it. There's

0:33:05 Tom: Well it's because of course you disagree, right? Because like, if you didn't disagree on this point, they'd be the one breaking up with you, or you wouldn't be breaking up at all

0:33:05 Thomas: No. Yeah mm -hmm. That's something that people more people should learn. I forgot, sorry. Most people are just not emotionally mature in any way. You can't argue someone back into wanting to be in a relationship with you, just in case that need to be said that's not going to work, and if it did, it would be like a hostage situation. They probably just gave in because you scared them or something.

0:33:24 Tom: Right

0:33:32 Thomas: So don't do that. But in terms of like of kind of having some idea what went wrong, I know, I feel like it would be really frustrating and somewhat like just like emotionally scarring to not know, like, shit, did I do something wrong? I don't know what I did. Because what if that happens next time? What if, you know, like it's something I need to change? And so I don't know. I feel like I would probably want that honesty, but maybe that's just me

0:33:32 Eli: Yep you

0:33:57 Tom: Here's the thing, like I had that like had that happen, and it, it was not pleasant to not know, but again, like I really feel like the antidote to that is just to be like, I, I was my best self. Every time, every day I woke up, I was, I offered the best I had to offer. If that wasn't enough, then, okay, cool, cool, move on. And that

0:33:58 Eli: Can't fucking have it. Okay

0:33:58 Thomas: Yeah

0:34:15 Eli: Check your being your best self -privileged tom fuck

0:34:17 Thomas: I don't yeah

0:34:17 Tom: Revelation to me though, made all the difference.

0:34:18 Eli: Yeah

0:34:18 Thomas: Because eli and I are like, okay, I wasn't my best self. Is my average self now, my average cell, is that good enough, or do I need to somehow take some performance enhancing drugs to to up my average stuff. That's the information I need you know

0:34:28 Tom: Well, is that right? Right.

0:34:33 Eli: Look I don't want a survey of my exes, but I'm pretty sure not a one would be like, oh no, he was his best self ever. Every day. Hey, I think if you interviewed my wife, she wouldn't be like, I mean, every day, Jesus.

0:34:45 Thomas: Yeah that's that's crazy I

0:34:49 Tom: All I'm not saying I never made any mistakes. I don't want to paint myself that way, but I, I felt like I was like, all right, well, that's like, is who I am. Like, at the end of the day, you don't want it, and that's okay. Like, that emotional revelation that it's okay if somebody doesn't want you, and that worked for me I

0:35:01 Thomas: Yeah I just think we're talking about two different things, I don't know, like think

0:35:04 Tom: I guess I'm saying like I know what you want I I let me summarize it back to you so I make sure I don't misunderstand your point, but I think my antidote is the same. Is you have done things that you are missing a growth opportunity from, you would want to know what those things were, because otherwise you're, you're in the dark and you don't have an opportunity to grow. And what I'm saying is that that self-reflection isn't, that's required for you to do absent anybody bringing that to the table. Nobody has an obligation to hand that to you.

0:35:27 Thomas: You're overestimating people's no, I, yeah, they don't have an obligation. I, again, I don't think it should be like a rule and also again, women at all times, uh, exempted from any of this, because again, it could be a toxic situation, situation yeah I just think that you could be overestimating people's ability to accurately assess how they come off and come across to others. You

0:35:33 Tom: Yeah, it's a safety thing. Yeah, sure.

0:35:48 Eli: Oh no. I think that if people were able to logically and usefully have that conversation, it would be a valid one. But I know not one human being in my entire life capable of that conversation. Not one. One. I've never met a single human who I think would be like, yeah, no, I feel like they could do a really good relationship debrief and they'd be really like mature and chill and cash money about it.

0:36:12 Thomas: Resent that

0:36:12 Tom: I to agree. I think it's too emotionally fraught.

0:36:15 Thomas: Yeah

0:36:15 Eli: Maybe you, Thomas, maybe you, for the sake of argument, maybe, you.

0:36:18 Thomas: I would give you accurate reasons, but they would still be my reasons. You can still be like, all right, well, that's kind of bullshit, but like, I would report accurately what my reasons for breaking up are, you, if, if felt like that was a good idea, I don't know, again, I haven't been in the situation, I have no idea, I've we're talking about the exes and getting back together. My main, you, relationship before Lydia was, uh, got back together, got two times at least, I think, technically, and we made it no no well, here's the thing, here's okay, this is actually the important, important part I wanted to talk about, um, especially you being the, you is slavery, whatever person of the show, Eli, I don't think the, the only acceptable end result of a relationship is you stay together forever and ever and ever, otherwise it was a whole total failure. And it's like, I don't regret that we got back together one or two times, like we had good, good times together. And, uh, really, that, you know?

0:36:33 Tom: I

0:36:43 Eli: Yeah. And you guys made it. What are you, fifth anniversary now? 15th?

0:36:55 Eli: Correct.

0:37:11 Eli: I went on that rollercoaster because I do agree that a relationship ending is not always a bad thing. Um, would say that it coming back together, it depends on the nature of the relationship. I guess, when, guess I was playing in the space of monogamy right, because when you get into um non-monogamous relationships, people come and go, right? It's just not a the, the relationship dynamic right right well, uh, monogomy has like a point, right, which is that you, Tom, and you, you find Haley, and then your hearts beat as one, and then you die at the same time while you both turn into birds or something. I don't fucking know what their game plan is. It's insane. He won't jerk off.

0:37:26 Thomas: Hmm. Okay. Yeah. The nature of, yeah.

0:37:35 Tom: Mean literally yeah

0:37:53 Eli: Whatever. I don'T REALLY KNOW WHAT TO TELL YOU. They're like crystal wizards to me at this point, guys. I'm really trying. I am. Your fucking wedding pictures are great.

0:38:05 Thomas: And it was a genuine earnest attempt to, it was like, he was like really, you could tell, yeah, you'd tell Eli was really, oh, and it's, Ah, and then he just couldn't, it was like A, oh I don't know what that is.

0:38:07 Eli: Heart emoji every time, people. Every fucking time. Yeah, exactly. But yeah.

0:38:13 Tom: No. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

0:38:18 Eli: Non -monogamous Relationships, they, they come and they go and they, they faction, um,

0:38:19 Tom: Yeah.

0:38:22 Thomas: At This We were not, you know, so it wasn't in that context, just FYI.

0:38:26 Eli: So it was a terrible mistake that You shouldn't have done, I'll throw that out There, right there, baby.

0:38:27 Thomas: Well I Think age Is a big component to this, I think. If you are above fucking, uh, 26, then no, like, because I think you get to a certain age where you broke up because you fucking, whatever the reasons were, you know, but like, when you're younger, when you're in your teens, when you're in high school, when you're in college, there's just more dumb, like, you impulsive kind of, ah, well then why don't we just break up? You know, there is more crap like that where it doesn't really, first off, you're not with someone you're necessarily going to marry anyway, like it doesn't, the stakes aren't that high, I don't think. And secondly, like, there's just more room for, like, ah, that was an impulsive decision we made, maybe let's try it again, and also, who fucking cares? I don't know. What do you think?

0:38:30 Eli: Right. Yeah.

0:39:11 Tom: Guess I want to, I want to parse out that there's a difference between like regretting a relationship and a relationship working out. Like, think it's entirely fine to have, have relationships that didn't work out and then be like, yeah, I don't regret that. It was fun. It was good time. Like, I learned something. And then ultimately we decided, you know, that like, you know, we weren't right for each other. And so that was an important part of my growth experience as well.

And so even the heartbreak or the heartache or whatever is an important part of my growth experience. I think that all those things can be fine. Like, I don't, I don't really have a lot of, like, I have some, but I don't have a lot of regrets, right, my dating life, you, because things didn't work out with somebody doesn't mean I'm like, oh, what a waste of time. What a regret I have. I wish I'd never met them. Like, none of that. I've none of it.

I think that's like kind of like a horrible way to to view something just because it didn't last forever. It has like had no positive impact or was just like a shit experience start to finish or whatever. That's in monogamy world. And I think most monogamous people would probably agree with that sentiment, that because it wasn't your, you didn't find your person first, doesn't mean that everybody you found prior to your person was a horrible experience that you regret and wish you never had. I

0:40:19 Eli: Right.

0:40:19 Tom: Don't, I don't know anybody that holds that. When I say, like, don't get back together with somebody, what I mean is, like, you've, when you break up with somebody, if you've had a real relationship, and so, like, I'm not talking about, like, we dated a handful of times when We were sophomores In high school.

0:40:30 Eli: You Did three dates And then you

0:40:31 Tom: Who Gives A Shit.

0:40:31 Eli: Got a Long Text And you were like, yeah sure, yeah.

0:40:34 Tom: Right, that's not a relationship, so that's, there's no breakup right there's nothing meaningful there, there to break. But like, if you have an actual relationship where there's big feelings involved and then somebody breaks that, I don't believe that that trust can be repaired. So I think the time when you get back together, both of you are like one foot in, one foot out, necessarily, cause you're like, I know something about you and that you're willing to hurt me. And that's something that is really, that that's how I would view it.

0:40:57 Thomas: Huh. Yeah.

0:41:00 Tom: That is how I view it and having played that game myself and having done it before, it's like, all right, well, cool. Like now now I'm trepidatious and you're trepidasious and like we both know a little something more about each other and not something good, by the way, but something like hurtful was

0:41:15 Thomas: Well, That's interesting, because, again, I think that's like possibly doubling that a of the I know what the right word is going to say baggage, but I don't mean that in a negative sense, but a lot of the stuff that you're bringing into what a relationship is, Tom, which is totally valid for you, but I don't like view a breakup in that way. And I didn't I wouldn't view the relationship after that in that way where it's like, oh, you know, we have to be able to give our whole selves, like I don't I don'T I don't think I view it in those same high stakes ways. Maybe I'm trying to think of what the difference is.

0:41:44 Tom: Just to be clear, you were talking about a relationship being defined as somebody you've had big feelings for.

0:41:48 Thomas: I'm talking. Yeah, I'm telling about my one. This was the person I was with for a decade. Yeah.

0:41:52 Tom: Oh, OK. Then, yeah, we just we just see it different. I'm just making sure we're on the same. Yeah. Yeah, just making you run the same page.

0:41:56 Eli: Just Tom believes in love. It's a little thing called love. Tom, you probably Thomas, we probably wouldn't understand it.

0:41:58 Thomas: Yeah.

0:41:59 Tom: Yeah. Like I Like, for me, and I'm not selling it to you, but like for me, the reason I don't think it works is because it's like, all right, well, like I already know that you're willing to hurt me, or you know I'm willing to hurt you, and something that like I just wouldn't that trust is like almost impossible to rebuild, that that's a space where you're like, yeah, well, we already kind of decided once we don't work, and probably pretty recently, because it's not like most of the time people get back together 10 years down the road.

What happens most of the time, I know that does happen sometimes, but I know what happens most of the times is people are still fresh from the prior breakup within a year, and they've stayed in contact, and they've never really fully separated, and then they get back together and give it another go. And then it almost always fails. It almost always Always fails. I've never seen it not fail. And the second time they're like in love again, they don't get the infatuation. They don't get the honeymoon period. They just get this sort of awkward, like dance around each other. And it's just sucks.

0:42:00 Eli: Yeah.

0:42:41 Eli: No, I Yeah, I was going to say, what I see so often is the you know, what now that I've actually done the breaking up and I'm lonely, I'm feeling a lot of pain from that, and I would like that pain to stop, so let's get back together.

0:43:06 Thomas: Yeah.

0:43:05 Tom: Right? Think that's what motivates the coming back together very often is like, it you just you're feeling hurt, like you're both feeling hurt. And you're both feeling lonely. And It's like, well, who used to help me when I felt hurt and lonely? Oh, this this person. All right. Well, that's my person when I feel hurt and lonely. And they just kind of gravitate back into one another because it's easier because it is like, yeah, this immediately stops what hurts, but it doesn't make for a good relationship. It doesn't mean that like all those problems that existed in June are now gone in October. Like same person four or five months later, fundamentally that you were before.

0:43:28 Eli: Yeah.

0:43:42 Eli: Now Thomas does bring up an interesting complication, though, because I have always this never happened to me, I'll throw this out there I have always been fascinated by the the idea of an old flame, right, like someone from years and years ago who maybe there was something there, and then you run into them and then something reignites between you, that seems in in what's That Word, incongrus, that one, it seems incongrous.

0:44:07 Thomas: In Congress.

0:44:07 Tom: Incongruous. I like the way you said it. Can we go back to incongruity with us. Yeah.

0:44:11 Eli: Yeah. With my incongrugus Uh, it seems in Congress would be no, like, up, making up thing is that, can we establish, like, a but if it's been X amount of years, it's chill, rule? Or

0:44:24 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. It's like a statute of limitations. Yeah.

0:44:27 Tom: I I think I don't think that's the same thing, I think that's very different, I think, like, most of the time when people are talking about, like, on again, off again, breaking up getting back together. Yeah. These are like it's all within a year, all of this stuff happens within a handful of weeks, months, on the the outside of here, like an old flame is somebody who's like, you at the old folks' home, and like you're both widowers or whatever, and somebody like you knew him back in like grade school or some shit, and like, you find out like she had a, you had a crush on me, and I had a

0:44:38 Eli: We're talking three days Yeah, oh, You, built her a house, but she never got the letters. Yeah. -hmm Yeah, it's the best, I love it. Can I say this? Hey, podcast listener, and I never make requests of you, except for Patreon, over at Dear Old Dads, patreon.com, um, you are in an on again, off again relationship, will you just tag me in like the first post on Facebook, because I never I can never star people on my Facebook list faster than people who are adjudicating their on -again, off -again relationship. I'm the opposite of Tom Curry. Tom Curry, you'll be like, my husband died, and he's like, I don't want your drama. Unfollow. But me? I am living

0:45:05 Thomas: Letters.

0:45:40 Thomas: Oh,

0:45:41 Eli: For the drama.

0:45:41 Thomas: Man.

0:45:42 Eli: I'm from upstate New York and it's juicy as fuck In upstate New York. You think Telemundo has it? The Binghamton Buffalo Wild Wings has nine soap operas that your grandma wish she had eyes on. Yeah.

0:45:41 Tom: I feel seen

0:45:44 Thomas: I don't want you to.

0:45:56 Thomas: OK, about breakup sex? And then I realized for Tom, he can't see his exes. So is that like masturbate? I don't know. Yeah. I

0:46:02 Eli: He just ends up and then he doesn't do that either, so you know, it's just, he's just got to randomly hump different pieces of air, hoping he finds that's a terrible idea. I think breakup sex is a weird concept because first of all, I mean, look, nobody's ever offered. So I've never, I've never had the opportunity. Um, don't think that I would be in a chill place to do that in a breakup. Just like putting my mind back. I would definitely not be like, and that's because I'm a horny boy. And I gotta tell you, there have been some inappropriate moments where I've been like, fuck right now. But like,

0:46:09 Tom: Super weird

0:46:41 Thomas: Think

0:46:41 Eli: I will tell you that breakup is one of the few moments where I think I would be like, nah, not today, not this moment right here. I'll tell you, if my ex again, who I want to emphasize is such a wonderful person, and who the relationship, as Tom said, I don't regret, I just wish they hadn't said that one soul crushing piece of truth at me, but if they had been like, "who's ever going to want to hear anything have to say," and then it'd been like, I would have been like, I don't think so, I think I gotta deal with this.

0:47:11 Tom: I, up. Sex sounds like the worst idea possible to me. It's it not, Sounds like the fucking like staying in touch bullshit. Like literally like, well, no, like you're broken up, be broken up. Like go don't take solace from somebody.

0:47:22 Thomas: It's Usually Like one for the road, you know, it's more like I got a long drive.

0:47:27 Eli: Man. Thomas. You know you've insisted before on this podcast how good at sex you are, and I'm starting to believe it, because anyone who's been like, I'm sorry, can I just doggy bag some sex? I just, uh... I just want one last taste of the smizzle -bizzle before I go, and you've been like well, I suppose so, alright, gosh, I'm... I'm so sorry, everybody, I've gotta turn the counter, this butcher's counter that I've got on the wall back a number, because she does want one more romp, and I am a gentleman, and I do as the lady asks.

0:47:30 Thomas: I Okay. The Haven't

0:47:59 Eli: Beep -beep. Now, what about this? Yes, let me throw this at you. Break up sex with other people, right? Because I believe, but quite literally in the same room, like, cause here's my, here's My Theory.

0:48:02 Tom: Wait wait

0:48:05 Thomas: Right away, the right way, move on, get under someone else theory, yeah. What? What? Hold on. What?

0:48:13 Eli: I'm going to paint you a picture. Yes. I want to paint you a pictures. And Tom, this probably isn't going to work for you because if you're a bird, she's a bird or whatever.

0:48:13 Tom: This is aggressive okay no

0:48:15 Thomas: Okay. I don't know what's happening here. Yeah. Yeah. Close your ears, Tom. Earmuffs, Tom, earmuffs.

0:48:22 Tom: I I I am listening

0:48:23 Thomas: No, I'm just kidding.

0:48:24 Eli: Yeah. But here's what I think. Okay. I think in every relationship, everybody has a first phone call, right. Which is no matter how good your relationship is, no matter how wonderful and concrete and amazing it is, there is someone who you're like, but if it was over, I mean, I'm calling this person first. Or if I got hit by a bus tomorrow, this person is calling her first. I know exactly who's first phone call is. He's a lovely dude. I like him a lot.

Like he's a genuinely nice dude. He treats my wife super well and I respect it. I respect the love of the game because I see this man keeping himself in the the wings on a regular basis with no ulterior motives, no grossness. My wife's not stupid, she's not gonna fall for some "oh we're friends until I hit on you" thing. No, this is just a gentleman and a scholar keeping himself in the goddamn game. He sees that heart disease runs in my family, sees how many bags of popcorn I eat a night, it's not just one. He's keeping himself in the ring, that's all I'm saying. And I think maybe instead of make up sex with each other, which sounds like a nightmare, you, you call up that first phone call and you'll be like, "hey, we're in the middle of the breakup now, can you guys get here at hopefully around the same time so there's not sort of like a wait for the

0:49:10 Thomas: He

0:49:35 Eli: And then we fuck each other, fuck the other person and be like, this is great, this is going, oh, I'm so glad we're broken up. And it's like, how you doing, you doing okay? You can give tips to that person, right? You can be like, no, no, dude, let me show you, you got to do this, okay, make it do the alphabet, what's the matter with you, fucking everybody, everybody knows this," right?

0:49:35 Tom: I can't

0:49:53 Thomas: Like there's a printout in drawer, how everything works. Here's here's all the passwords

0:49:56 Eli: Parting tips for their next lover. This is a great idea.

0:49:59 Thomas: Yeah.

0:49:58 Tom: I left the manual in there.

0:50:00 Eli: Guys, I invented polyamory again by accident. And let me tell you, it fucking rules.

0:50:00 Tom: Yeah. I'll tell you who that first phone call is for most people. It's to an ex they kept in contact with to keep on the back burner so they could make that phone call to. And that's just true. That's just truth.

0:50:14 Eli: Yeah.

0:50:16 Thomas: And Tom looks at his phone and the numbers aren't there. They're... He's like, "Damn it, fuck, I

0:50:21 Eli: Just calling me. Hey, do you remember any of my exes?

0:50:21 Tom: You You know I'm right, though. You know, I'm like, you know, most of the time it's somebody's like, oh, we're just friends. I promise we're just friends but as soon as I'm free I'm fucking them because we're just friends

0:50:37 Eli: Unfortunately, almost all of my exes are, um, not interesting. I'm again, this is like for a podcast audience of one, and that podcast audienceofone is me. But you, if you knew my relationship history, the notion of like, that's like being like, uh, oh, well, most samurais ended up marrying, uh, person whose master they killed. Yeah, that's who they end up with usually, is that the guy, is master they killed. That's where that connection really lasts. All right, gentlemen, before we go, where do mice get their illegal alcohol? A squeak-easy. No?

0:50:43 Thomas: Love

0:51:23 Tom: All right

0:51:23 Thomas: It oh

0:51:28 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:52:12 Eli: I say this, I blacked out, I, as someone knows, with, oh, can I, sorry, can I just doggy bag some sex? I, I'm a horny boy. And