DOD110: Would You Rather Be Cheated On or Stabbed?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Tom: Dear Old Dads, the podcast that is definitely the asshole. I'm Tom Curry, and I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:38 Eli: Finally an introduction that fits me Tom. Thank you so much at last

0:00:40 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:00:42 Tom: Quick, for those keen -eared listeners, you may notice the unbelievable amount of fucking background noise that you're suffering through two weeks in a row. That's because because we're recording two episodes back -to -back.

0:00:49 Thomas: That's because contractors have been in his house for a solid week, solid week straight

0:00:56 Tom: Yeah, they've

0:00:56 Eli: Saw the week that a non -stop.

0:00:56 Tom: Been in a...

0:00:58 Eli: It's the only way to wake him the shocks He started dreaming about the sweet release of death. And So then. Also, he forgot long division. So, you know, it's really been a tough mm-

0:00:57 Thomas: Non -stop

0:01:04 Tom: God, if I forgot long division, I'd... I just...

0:01:11 Thomas: Though Tom's actually gonna be fucking amazing at long division now. Like, Tom's gonna be a fucking savant at like basic math because of the thing

0:01:15 Eli: -hmm. We're just hanging out with Tom. Okay, so, uh, I want to leave a 25 tip. Sony's a four dollars and 33 cents.

0:01:19 Thomas: Oh No, no, yeah. Yeah.

0:01:24 Eli: Please don't make a stop. Make the boo-boos stop. That's right.

0:01:28 Thomas: Hey, this is all callbacks to the Patreon story from last show, everybody. So if you don't know what we're talking about, sorry, but it's really, really fucking funny to

0:01:33 Eli: Yeah. Know the only things worse than the method of torturing yourself that our patrons are aware of that no one else is. Why, it's the auto ads, the every five seconds shock to your podcast listening experience. But can do the longest form of division. That's right, giving us money, which is taking your money and doing a very long division of just a dollar an episode and giving it to me. Well, a third of it to me. Yeah.

0:02:01 Thomas: Even Eli can do that, man.

0:02:02 Eli: Exactly, I can do that math. That is 39 cents. You're welcome, um, because of taxes. Anyways, you can do that over at patreon.com/dearolddads. It's because of Judaism. Fine. You know what, we'll have to say it. Whenever Jews get a third or higher split of any contract, I don't know why we were talking about this on the air. Whenever Jews get a 3rd or higher, the giant cabal of secret Jews, they add 6% to it as sort of a motivator for all of us, and you get it when you're born with your little package of gold. Okay? I said it. I don't want to talk about it anymore. But you can contribute to my 39% over at patreon.com/dearolddads for as little as a dollar a show. And

0:02:08 Tom: What?

0:02:42 Thomas: Arlo, by the way, just this isn't the episode, but I just want to mention he's getting the an egg challenge. I love that. This is an actual medical thing, by the way.

0:02:48 Eli: He's a real asshole about it, which is why Tom chose that intro, everybody, it's

0:02:54 Tom: Wow.

0:02:50 Thomas: No, but I love when there's an actual medical thing. That's like, Oh, Lydia keeps saying, Oh he's doing an egg challenge. He's doing a challenge. And I just keep in my mind, I'm like, well, that's a shorthand for something or, you know what I mean? Like that can't be, I know, he's going to dump a, a like bucket of eggs on his head and donate to something. Is that what that is? I don't know. And no, it's like, you, that's the technical fucking term for it, an egg challenge, to see if he, uh, dies or not. So he's, right now, as we speak, he's, uh, ingesting, doing the song from Beauty and the Beast, when I was a boy I ate five, doesn't, you know, he's doing all that. And then we see if, uh, see if she's allergic.

0:03:05 Eli: A TikTok trend, yeah. Oh, Wow. That's a fucking Disney deep cut. Well, well done, Thomas. I was like, what?

0:03:30 Thomas: Beauty and the Beast If

0:03:32 Eli: What? Song from Beauty and the Beast talks about eggs, but there, there you go. It's the recitative leave-in for for Gaston's

0:03:32 Thomas: That's a Disney oh yeah yeah, we have to see if he's roughly the size of a barge, I think, is how they test it, yeah.

0:03:41 Eli: Theme. Yeah, mm -hmm.

0:03:44 Thomas: No, and Lydia had to make them up. There is a medical procedure, everyone, that involves making your kid muffins and bringing all of that to a doctor's office with your kid.

0:03:56 Thomas: Isn't it weird? Yeah, it's like I, yeah.

0:03:56 Tom: Are you serious? That's crazy.

0:03:59 Thomas: It makes sense, but

0:03:59 Eli: You show up and they're like, ooh, blueberry? Um, okay. No, I guess if it's like your first time making muffins, they're expecting, Like, everyone's got a plate, a cake plate, like it's Carol's birthday. Sorry, are we doing the egg chest on Arlo? Yeah, no, Arlo, have some too. Happy birthday to you. You know, Chris, you've only been here for six months now, but meant so much to us and the whole team. Hey, your kid's dying, you should do something about that. You've ment so much to us and the hole team here. Get

0:04:03 Thomas: Yeah, that would be really funny if they're like, geez, these are shit. I don't think we can, we can't use these.

0:04:38 Eli: Him with the epi pen. Blue towards the sky, green towards the thigh. Come on,

0:04:39 Thomas: So, uh, Chris, you're new here. You take care of it. You try it. You've never done it.

0:04:45 Eli: Chris. Oh, you're gonna love the way Chris epi pens. He's, he's got the touch. That's what we always say about him. Touching Chris.

0:04:48 Thomas: So yeah. So that's what Lydia and Arlo are doing right now. They're sitting in a doctor's office with home -baked muffins that have escalating amounts of eggs and yeah, yeah, and so, then he has to, okay,

0:05:04 Eli: They make you make fucking scaling muffins.

0:05:07 Tom: Wait, how many muffins does he have to eat? Like, what if he gets full and can't do the test? Like, I don't it's like, he's got to do like that Kobayashi shuffle, like, to like get him down? He's dunking them in water and shit, like to get them, uh, oh, an announcer, like, Arlo's gonna have a reversal of fortune, it looks like, if he doesn't get this one down.

0:05:11 Eli: Eleven muffins. Yeah, it makes them slide down easier now? No,

0:05:12 Thomas: Lydia, yeah, they give him, I, yeah, if I did it Remy it, he would be doing the hot dog eating contest of it, they'll be like dude, you just want to eat a little bit, oh fuck, he's just down all of them, something like ate muffins and I think it's just, you know, She it for when we were recording because she's like, all right, this is something where you have to go to a doctor's office for potentially like five hours. Like it could be a long time. Yeah. And you have TO sit there and see if he turns red or whatever happens. And if he doesn't, then he eats another one.

0:05:38 Eli: We don't know how allergic to eggs he is. Allergy,

0:05:51 Tom: Jesus.

0:05:59 Eli: Me, um, shit on some medical science here. Allergy medicine feels the fakest of all the medicines because allergy medicine, the test, but it's, it feels the fakest emotionally to me because the test, the first test for allergies, is they scratch you with a scratcher, right, just like, "Ow," and you're like, "Yeah, got them," and then they schmear, schmear the thing you're allergic to on those scratches, and you're like, "Yeah, you see when I rubbed egg into your wound, your skin didn't like that." So you might be allergic to eggs.

0:06:07 Thomas: Like the Most Real, though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In a really comical way, too. They do like a checkerboard and they do, I think they should do it. So if you have a certain combination of allergies, it does like a kick me or like, you know what I mean? Like, or like an, a, you a swastika and you get canceled, you Know, just as a spice it up.

0:06:33 Eli: Yeah. Oh, yes. Yeah. That's, because end up up being allergic to peanuts and sunflower at the same time, fuck them, you know. What we're

0:06:49 Thomas: Yeah. You're canceled online. You re it's over forever.

0:06:52 Eli: Giving you the first three monologues from Keith or Severlands 24, um, then the cure feels fake too, because you go in and you just get an allergy shot like once a day for five years, or some insane amount, gotta

0:06:56 Tom: Yeah,

0:07:04 Thomas: It's even better than that. Cause I know you listened to the episode we did on this. It really is like the best therapy that they get you used to like, for example, peanuts or whatever, they get you used to a certain amount, over like a million years, you know, and this is the ideal situation. It doesn't work for everybody. But if you're in that ideal zone where it's like, yes, you can kind of overcome this allergy, you basically eat like a peanut every day for the rest of your life just to keep up the immunity.

0:07:28 Thomas: It's like I just imagine the pill, you Know, my pill organizer and like each day has a peanut in it.

0:07:28 Eli: Keep it going pill, case but it's got peanuts and yeah, sunflower seed, yeah.

0:07:32 Tom: Just like a just the Mr. Peanut guy branded pill case, you know, just that, yeah, I will say, like, something similar-ish kind of helped me overcome, I used to be allergic to cats, like, kind of significantly allergic to rats, and

0:07:38 Thomas: Yeah. And they shocked his balls enough until he said

0:07:48 Tom: I shocked my balls enough that I'm not allergic, I will not be allergic, oh, like

0:07:52 Eli: But ate a kitten every day, and then after a year, that's

0:07:58 Tom: Hayley moved here, she had two cats, I had a dog. And my dog scared the shit out of the cat. So the cat's hidden the basement. And so for the first, like, handful of months, the cats pretty much just hung out. We had a nice finished basements. The cats were fine, but the cats hung out in the basement, but I think the, like, small amounts of their dander just circulated through the HVAC. And, like, I kind of had a stuffy nose, et cetera. And then after a while, it just started going away and going away. And now I am absolutely not allergic to cats. We have four cats, and like, I play with the cats and can rub my, you know...

0:08:27 Eli: Them in the background grinding marble.

0:08:32 Tom: All right, guys, so there's an Am I The Asshole we got to work through here. This is fucking awesome.

0:08:31 Thomas: This is the best perfect transition kind of, I don't know, yeah,

0:08:38 Tom: I The Asshole for not forgiving my wife for kissing another guy even though she was suffering from PPD?

0:08:37 Eli: Yes, yes, thanks for coming everybody, so this week Max did the cutest thing.

0:08:44 Thomas: Done, thanks for coming,

0:08:51 Tom: My wife gave birth about one year ago, and she's changed. She was angry all the time, suspicious, and paranoid of everyone. Think her mother filled her head against me. She would consistently accuse meof cheating, and mother - in -law and her would talk bad about me on the phone when I was not home. One day, she said she's leaving me, andher mother was packing up her stuff. She left with our daughter to her mother's house.

Later that night, she called me and told me that she kissed the guy and asked me how does it feel to be cheated on, accusing me again of being a cheater and how I've betrayed her. I finally had enough, and I told her, don't come back. She started blowing up my phone, and I refused to reply or take up her calls. She did show up in our house after two days, and she asked me for help with her mental health.

I took her to the hospital, and she was diagnosed with PPD and put on medication. Started slowly returning back to her normal self. I think she is heal and can managed by herself form now on, so it was the right time for me to divorce her. So I served her divorce papers a few days ago. She's not

0:09:44 Tom: Happy about it and begging me not to divorce her. She's blaming it on the PPD, and I understand that her head was messed up, but I don't tolerate cheating. If she had stabbed me or something, if she had stabbed me, I

0:09:44 Thomas: Christ, this

0:09:55 Eli: Stabbed me Or something.

0:09:56 Thomas: Is, ladies and gentlemen, this is why I, I, we do this on the show, this is the best.

0:09:57 Eli: Yeah, I wrote this to make fun of Tom, is everybody, just so you know, yeah,

0:10:02 Tom: Would have forgiven her, but she's not. If she stabbed me for something, I don't tolerate cheating so I am proceeding with the divorce. Am I the asshole? Holy

0:10:16 Eli: Sure, are, can I say something that I think is really important, and I really only heard it for the first time when I heard, uh, reading it, there is a thing, and maybe it's just, you've been exposed to enough trolls online that, like, you can hear in the way someone writes something. I know that's an insane sentence for me to say out loud, but I can now hear when someone writes it that there's a certain manosphere tone that takes over a post. A certain formality of tone that comes up where I realize this is completely being made up by a psychopath whose wife kissed someone else at a party and was like, "Oh gosh, don't, Michelle, man!"

0:10:16 Thomas: Yes. Hmm. Yeah.

0:10:17 Tom: Shit? Yeah, I think I know what you're talking about yeah,

0:10:58 Eli: And then just fucking

0:10:59 Thomas: Well, I, well, I want to ask you, I actually, just um, to, to start here. I know a lot, a lot of the time when we talk about these, even just on our own, a lof of the time, it's like, yeah, this is probably bullshit. This one feels honestly pretty authentic to me. I don't know. What do you, what do you think?

0:11:00 Eli: Oh, this I'm full-on horseshit, I, I would bet solid

0:11:15 Thomas: Wait, like made up, like the whole thing's made up.

0:11:17 Tom: I I think this is made up too.

0:11:19 Eli: My bet is everything except for the part where he served her the divorce papers is true, that she kissed someone else, she was like, "Hey," but then she came back, she was like, "I have PPD," she got treated, and in his head he's like, "That was the day that I served her her divorce papers." And the, but I had them secretly drafted. And that's when I said, "Sorry, Scarlet, I'm afraid I don't give a damn." And I tipped my fedora and walked out the door to sweet Axl Rose music all the way. Yeah. Like, I, none of it's real. None of it is real. This is the fantasy.

0:11:51 Thomas: None of it's real.

0:11:52 Eli: This isthe sad fantasy of a cuck.

0:11:53 Thomas: Wow. No, like to the Point where you think this is a fake person or a, like a troll or what do you mean? Yeah.

0:12:00 Eli: No, I think this is a person who is indulging a fantasy because the internet has broken us so entirely, is indulging a fantasy where he felt deeply betrayed by his wife with PPT kissing another dude, uh, which to be fair, hey dude, if you're listening, if you're out there, and I know you are, um, didn't kiss that other dude, she just called you and lied about it because she wanted to hurt your feelings. So, look, at this everyone's lying but he's indulging this weird fantasy online because he wants to read all the the comments.

0:12:25 Tom: I

0:12:17 Thomas: Oh, Okay, let Me, let me rephrase, I, I guess my question was, is this basically a real person telling something related to a real story, or is it like a bot, or a, is it yeah, so yeah Exactly, that's what I meant, that it reads as a real person, at least to me, even if I don't buy, I don't mean like everything, version of events is true, I just mean like Like, I think it's because there's so much that's like so bad to write about, like to openly admit. And maybe they're that sophisticated now. Maybe. But I don't know. This, this comes across as a real person to me, I guess, is what I'm saying.

0:12:27 Eli: Yeah. Oh, is it someone doing like a creative writing exercise. No, I don't think it's that, but it could be yeah right yeah

0:13:00 Tom: Assume everything on Reddit is made-up. I assume everything on read it is a creative writing project by an asshole, so just like, like when you said like, is it made up, like, yeah, I assume everything's made up, I assume it's all lies, like I just like you put it all in that bucket.

0:13:03 Thomas: Me, too. Yeah, pretty much. Well, I start mitzvah. I start wit that assumption, basically. But you can you can.

0:13:12 Tom: Right, and then and then I just decide after that, like, I don't care, because if it's interesting, I'm still interested because like, what the fuck do I care if it happened to a real person that I don't know, or a fucking made-up fantasy person I don't know, like, it's the same shit. Yeah.

0:13:19 Thomas: Sure. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Fair. Oh,

0:13:26 Eli: We we already talked online about the article in the New York Post where they interviewed all the people who make up the relationship help questions, and they were like, hey, why do you like it's incredible. It's an amazing article. Maybe it wasn't the Post, but look it up. Articles are fake on IATA. Whatever. They did an article. It was a legitimate news organization.

0:13:31 Tom: Yeah

0:13:34 Thomas: I don't think we did talk about that. Oh, we should. Yeah, I want to know that. Link me that? Oh,

0:13:44 Eli: And they interviewed some of the people who wrote them. And they were like, hey, you go on r slash relationships and you say you're like a woman being physically abused. Why? Why do you do that? And they're like, I don't know. Just fun. It's a good chance to have fun. Do the fucking... I just like the fact that sort of all truth has been and melded into a big horrible screen of ones and zeros that kills the human soul.

0:13:52 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So,

0:13:59 Tom: I did read this article

0:14:08 Thomas: Why? I don't think this is that. Like, there's the outrage bait, there's also the opposite. There's last night I saw a post that was like, a a son is paying off a mortgage and a dad is, and they actually got a good performance out of the person pretending to do this. That I don't watch anything with sound, so that could be part of it, because it's late at night usually. But like, wow, this looks like a guy doing a real performance of crying or whatever. And then I just kind of scrolled down the comments and they're like, here's another post with this actor doing this. I was like, what? Man, they not only do rage bait, they do the inspiration bait. They do the opposite, like the heartfelt bait, whatever you would call that, where it's like,

0:14:08 Eli: Oh. Yeah. The

0:14:41 Tom: Yeah,

0:14:41 Thomas: Yeah,

0:14:41 Tom: Yeah, I

0:14:41 Eli: Heart, heartwarming stuff everyone

0:14:43 Thomas: Is going to gin up those reactions on either kind of end of the spectrum is stuff that they're going to reproduce in order to get those those reactions. This, to me, kind of middles too much. You know what I mean? Be that. But I could be wrong.

0:14:55 Tom: Maybe I, my position just is the only thing that's real on the internet is panda videos. That's what I've decided. Like, pandas falling off of ladders, I think that's true. I'll watch those. I'm like, oh, there's a panda falling off a ladder, don't don't break my fucking heart, this is the last thing I have don't take that don't fucking take that from me too do god

0:15:06 Eli: Sends Tom fake panda videos just AI generated that's how we got to get you to wake up is every time you sleep we'll delete one panda video and we're running out of pandas because they do not like to fuck so

0:15:20 Tom: Damn it, god damn it well

0:15:25 Thomas: No, six there's of them in the world somehow.

0:15:27 Tom: They're, they're all in the same Chinese zoo and they all fall off ladders and it makes me laugh every time.

0:15:32 Thomas: That's actually genuine news stories. China took back the pandas. Did you know this? Yeah, they took away panda privileges. Must have been a hard day in Tom's life. They're like, we're done.

0:15:32 Tom: Oh, oh, Yeah. Yeah, uh -huh. Yeah, all right.

0:15:41 Thomas: No more pandas! Sad.

0:15:36 Eli: They did yeah,

0:15:43 Tom: So we should pretend it's real for

0:15:44 Thomas: Well, well, pretend it's real. Okay. Pretend it's real.

0:15:45 Eli: Look,

0:15:45 Tom: The purpose of it, talking through or at least

0:15:46 Eli: For the sake of conversation it's real. Oh,

0:15:47 Tom: Yeah, right,

0:15:48 Thomas: Yeah. But there's something that actually I think a real sentiment. And the post, regardless of that, a lot a of the commenters are real people, you know, because that's just you or I who are on there. Not all of them, but well, anyway, we're going to pretend they are. And the fact that this isn't a universal you're a piece of shit is telling to me. I think if I remember right, the consensus is he's the asshole, but it's not like 100%. And the The fact that like, look, we are three bears on this. And we know that Eli thinks that monogamy is slavery or whatever his position is. But if you find yourself saying you'd be cool if someone stabbed you, but not if they checks notes, kissed another guy, that's there's something wrong, like there's something deeply wrong. And I actually think that that might be a lot of men who feel that way. Like, I actually think there's

0:15:57 Tom: Yeah, up. Yeah.

0:16:36 Eli: Absolutely

0:16:37 Thomas: A significant of men who would actually endorse that, or at least that's how they would act.

0:16:37 Eli: One Million percent, one. I was genuine. When we just started talking about this, I was like, I'm excited for Tom to be like, here's why stabbing's not as bad. Right, you could take back a stabbing, the stabbing wound heals. Yeah.

0:16:49 Tom: Don't think that at all.

0:16:54 Thomas: Yeah. Well, first of all, stabbing's not any worse than Tom does to himself to wake himself up every day. So that's, that was where I thought Tom would get, like, I Actually thought Tom Would maybe kind of agree with this in a way, which is like, well, okay, Tom, okay.

0:16:59 Eli: Exactly, maybe

0:16:59 Tom: Yeah, what? Then I think that stabbing the being stabbed is the same

0:17:10 Thomas: Let me, let me rephrase.

0:17:10 Tom: Or worse.

0:17:11 Thomas: No, no, no. Let me rephase. I don't think you would admit it. But I think if this happened, no,

0:17:06 Eli: I know,

0:17:16 Tom: What position

0:17:17 Eli: Honest about your crazy opinions you

0:17:19 Thomas: I picture, an event where, Haley,

0:17:22 Tom: Have I held? It's that crazy about monogamy that I like monogomy, okay.

0:17:22 Thomas: No two things, Tom. It's more that you are, um, and I, I genuinely believe this. It's More that I don't think you value people doing physical damage to you very much. Or, I think you Would downplay the stabbing a lot is what I'M getting at. Like you Would, the stabging Would not matter to you much.

0:17:40 Eli: Do not really care that

0:17:42 Thomas: You know what I mean?

0:17:42 Eli: Much, yeah.

0:17:43 Thomas: You come at it the other way. Don't you think? Okay. Oh, am I wrong?

0:17:42 Tom: All right I I don't know what to say about that

0:17:48 Thomas: Eli. So tomorrow we learned that Haley stabbed Tom just for some reason that's like somewhat explicable. Like maybe she was having a psychosis of some kind. Stabbed Tom. He has no hard feelings whatsoever, right?

0:17:48 Eli: You're not crazy at all, you're absolutely you're spot on

0:18:00 Thomas: Like he's just like, yeah, whatever.

0:18:00 Eli: None none whatsoever. I think Hayley could stab Tom and I'm gonna throw this out there. Yeah, I think Hayley could stab Tom with no excuses seven times before it would be a problem.

0:18:05 Thomas: And not have an excuse.

0:18:08 Tom: What oh that is insane, you make me sound like a giant pushover. Like, like with that stuff.

0:18:16 Eli: No no not a pushover.

0:18:17 Tom: Like, I have no boundaries at all, like

0:18:17 Thomas: No, that's not that at all. No, I think you're a self -sacrifice -y guy.

0:18:20 Eli: You just don't particularly care. There's

0:18:19 Tom: No, no, I think I am, but like, I I will say like I have boundaries, and being stabbed, no.

0:18:29 Eli: No way, you're lying, you're, everyone, here's what's crazy, not only do Thomas and I know, you're laying, Hayley's listening, and she knows you're, like, Hayley look behind you, you see Hayley with a pair of scissors, right now.

0:18:37 Thomas: Sharpening her knife right now. Yeah. With a wet stone. Yeah.

0:18:41 Eli: Do you feel that sinking feeling in your heart as you realize that it hasn't changed, that you love her even a little bit, you might love her more, because she loves you enough to stab

0:18:44 Tom: That is you

0:18:47 Thomas: You might love her more, actually. Yeah.

0:18:51 Tom: Interrupted my poem I was writing you, I'm gonna write in blood now, no, that's insane. No like I absolutely would, here's the thing, like, I have, I would actually have, and I do, do you have, like, I have a very zero tolerance policy for any kind of physical assault, like, because I think, and not because I'm worried about like Haley hurting me in some way, right, but like, I think like, if you're willing to physically assault somebody, at the very least, part of the messaging here is like, I have no respect for you, your boundaries of this relationship, relationship, and

0:18:57 Eli: The first cut is the deepest literally

0:19:27 Thomas: Fair. She would need an excuse. She would need excuse of some kind.

0:19:30 Eli: Yeah, no, you'd have to chew extra loud with your mouth open or snore or whatever, yeah.

0:19:32 Thomas: Oh, yeah, yeah

0:19:36 Tom: So anything to me, any, it's a hard red line for anything for me that is like, and once it's crossed, it can never be uncrossed, for me, like I'm not a forgiveness guy

0:19:42 Thomas: Well that we all know about you, yeah.

0:19:46 Tom: Yeah

0:19:47 Eli: I mean, we. We were not worried about that. Yeah.

0:19:49 Thomas: Yeah

0:19:47 Tom: I'm I'm all in. Um I don't believe like forgiveness is real. That's that's the thing. Like, I don't think that's a real concept. So I think you I don'T believe in forgiveness. I think it's a bizarre and weird concept.

0:19:50 Thomas: Wow interesting yeah

0:19:57 Eli: Are we just going to put a pin in that for a different episode?

0:20:00 Tom: We can.

0:20:00 Thomas: We Did something on that, I thought. But I'm not sure we ever got to that full discussion, because I would be interested in talking about that. Yeah.

0:20:03 Tom: Yeah. Like, I think that'S a hard I think IT'S OKAY to have a hard red line and be like, yeah, anything that that is that level of disrespect for somebody's relationship, somebody's autonomy, somebody'S boundary is like, like a slap in the face. I'd be like, yeah, sorry. I don't live here anymore. I leave.

0:20:16 Thomas: Well, Me, Me, Once I- someone reveals who they are in a significant way, there's No coming back from that, because people want- I think a lot of people are, are like, "Okay, if they apologize." But it's like, no, if we're talking about something serious like this, like a, like real fucking serious thing, like you, you know, well, I can make several, several I'm not going to, but like you've revealed who you are. There's no like, ah, my bad. Like that, that's nothing that doesn't do anything. Agree with that.

0:20:26 Tom: Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah that's, That's- What I mean about- Like why I- Don'-believe-

0:20:49 Thomas: Yeah. But I I genuinely believe that if someone makes a, like a mistake, that even if it had serious consequences, if they have done something to demonstrate that, it happened or why they, they wouldn't do it again, or like in a real way, I I'm all for forgiveness in that sense. Like I would, I would do that pretty easily. Actually,

0:21:06 Eli: Can I throw this out there? Can I threw this out There? I feel Like Lydia could get away with stabbing Thomas if she just very straight -facedly was like, you cut yourself right Afterwards. Like, I think if you got him when he was busy, like in the middle of an edit at 12:30 at night, she just came up and gave him a little slash. And then she was like, "Oh, what'd you do to your hand?" Thomas's brain would be like, "I cut myself," you- Hear that silence, everybody.

0:21:06 Tom: Uh- -huh?

0:21:14 Thomas: I guess trying to Help you with the joke. Cause like, I mean, I don't know if you've heard of it, but I'm not- I, you know, me, me- I'm not like a "oh, I accept other people's versions of reality" easily. That doesn't- That's the- that's- Not- Me- At- All- But- I was- Trying to make it like go with the joke of like, "Oh, I actually don't see or do it." And so, yeah, maybe- okay, I could see it. Yeah, sure. I- Think Hayley could just convince Tom that, oh no, it was those contractors that now live in our house, they- uh, they just- uh-

0:21:42 Eli: That's- Definitely not the- Chase- Yeah, there-

0:21:43 Tom: That- Is- That- Is- Not the case. Yeah.

0:21:50 Eli: You go- she- Could just be like, "She- Tom, I want to stab you, let me stab you," and he'd be like, "Whatever you want, my princess, I got you a new stabbing knife," and she'd- Be- be like good, that's-

0:22:08 Thomas: God, But how broken are- I- not as though it's just a male thing, but I do think there's an added toxic masculinity component, you- to the jealousy thing. It's obviously jealousy, pretty universal in our society, but like this kind of thing feels like, yeah, people in our- you're not in our society, Eli- we- you-

0:22:30 Eli: You know what, fair- retracted. No, retracted.

0:22:32 Tom: Eli, you've- Got to back off- Of that one, then you're just done- There- That was- That he- Called- That-

0:22:33 Eli: That's- Fair- No- It's- Fair- I'm-

0:22:33 Thomas: But- But- There's a special, uh, think toxic brew-

0:22:38 Eli: In the zoo with the pandas, you- Guys should really be fucking- it's great, I'm just saying- I-

0:22:40 Thomas: There's- They need that, actually. You might- Be- Able to- Yeah.

0:22:46 Tom: Let's- All- Fall- Off a ladder.

0:22:48 Eli: Also fall off- Ladders, yeah.

0:22:50 Thomas: That there's a special, like, you extra toxic bit awfulness, it, when- when- and it links together the male feeling of ownership over women, because then it's not like, oh, you've broken our contractor in a way, or you've broken our trust, or you 'Ve done a thing that's emotion. It's this thing that I'm supposed to have control over, did a thing out of my control. And there's a certain brand of toxic male that is just the most disgusting, actually like scary and a genuine danger, obviously, to women, which is that linking that, like, sense of value to their control or ownership of a woman and then that you- woman cheating or whatever, like that's- a that's real toxic brew, and it just makes me sad that you could be that bent out of shape over, like, assuming- again, we're talking like this is real- assuming that someone was going through a psychosis and kiss someone, and then when they're better is like apologetic about it, and you're like, "Nah, if you'd stab me, I'd be cool," like that something majorly- wrong with that.

0:23:47 Tom: Yeah.

0:23:48 Eli: To- to continue the bummer vein, I forget who the author was, so this is going to be relatively meaningless, but there is a author who has examined the idea of Western honor killings, right? Something that we tend to attribute to people, um, the sort of continental east, right, and this idea of like fathers or brothers or ex-lovers killing someone in an honor killing, and it has a very specific meaning about specific cultures in the west. And what this author proposed is, like, yeah, but like if you take it out of that cultural context and just talk about, like, men who kill women because they feel they have been dishonored- here's what those stats are like in the United States. And they are, of course, wildly higher than- they are in the place where we consider honor killings to be right.

0:24:26 Tom: Sure. Yeah.

0:24:26 Thomas: Yikes. Same. With child- Marriage. By the way, yeah. For sure, because I think that actually explains the stabbing thing, because if a girl stabbed you in a psychosis, that's not a threat to your manhood, that's getと be the victim.

0:24:30 Eli: Yeah, exactly.

0:24:40 Eli: Depends where she stabbed you.

0:24:40 Thomas: Yeah. That's true, you get to be the strong- oh, I will forgive this woman even though she caused physical harm to me- you, why that's OK with this dude, assuming he's real. Whereas if the cheating on you, that's a threat to your manhood, to this guy's kind of manhood and masculinity in a way that he can't get over.

0:25:01 Eli: Yeah.

0:25:01 Thomas: I really think that's something that is operative, maybe not to this extent in everyone. But I think this is like a genuine feeling that a lot of men have in our society. And it's sad.

0:25:10 Eli: Oh yeah. I mean, look, when you talk, if you talk publicly about not being monogamous or sexual anarchy or whatever labels you want to give it, because there's, baggage there's that's held with a lot of those labels, which is why I avoid them largely. Um, of the things like people who like you, right? This is not like people on the internet trying to make fun of you. People who like, you will be like, yeah, but like, do you really want to be sitting at home knowing that another person is gonna, and I think that is like a very, and I, I I, want to be clear. I don't think it's the same level of toxicity and I don't think it's even necessarily toxic, but I think that origin of that feeling is very similar. Right.

0:25:23 Thomas: Mm hmm. Sure. Mm hmm, no, no. No. Yeah, absolutely.

0:25:52 Tom: What?

0:25:52 Eli: Is the like, right.

0:25:52 Tom: No. I don't think so at all.

0:25:55 Eli: So I want to be clear. I don't think that it's, I don'T think that IT'S toxic in the same way. Right? I think it is just that, like, how can that not bother you feeling right. Is a very similar, universal very, feeling.

0:26:04 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Universe. That's very universal. Yeah.

0:26:09 Tom: Sure.

0:26:09 Eli: Right, I, I DON'T want to say that. Like, if you ever listened to me be be a fucking psychopath and you're like, I have no idea how that's from you're toxic in the way this guy would rather be stabbed is toxic, or that you're Tom, who would absolutely rather be stabbed than cheated on, um, you

0:26:14 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. No,

0:26:24 Tom: I would rather be none of the above, actually, like, can I just, can I have neither horrible thing happen to me? Please

0:26:29 Eli: Know you Text me this all the time, Tom, really.

0:26:31 Thomas: You got to pick one. That's the rules.

0:26:34 Tom: Well, I would rather be cheated on than stabbed, I would I will say that definitively. That is my, I, Yeah, I wouldn't want to be like I don't want either of these things how

0:26:40 Eli: Picture it Tom, really capture it you

0:26:34 Thomas: God. Wow. Okay. Really? Like, an excuse for the stabbing and not for the cheating on, what do you think then?

0:26:48 Tom: Badly Am I injured?

0:26:48 Thomas: Yeah

0:26:50 Eli: See, I, can, we already got there. It took us 22 minutes for us to be like, Like, hey, this

0:26:51 Tom: Yeah. Wait, there's an excuse I don't know, there's an excuse for one, there's no excuse for the other, like, yeah, like, one would injure me without an excuse, one would injury me with an excuse, I'd rather be injured with an excused than without I'd

0:27:02 Thomas: So so one excuse is you on you and they're like, yeah, I just wanted to do it, and the other has stabbed you because they thought you were an intruder or something, I don't know which

0:27:10 Tom: Rather be stabbed when she thought I was an intruder for sure, of course, of course I would be what because at the end of the the, yeah, well, okay.

0:27:12 Eli: Is crazy. What is happening? What is happenin'?

0:27:16 Thomas: But then you're stabbed there's the problem with that yeah

0:27:20 Tom: But like, let's assume that I survive it. Right. All right. I'm I think intent is one of the most important, you elements of that moral conversation. Right? So somebody hurt me, but didn't intend to.

0:27:22 Thomas: Right well, I'm saying, yeah, of course, you would be less less mad at or something.

0:27:34 Tom: Okay. I wouldn't, well, I wouldn'T be mad at all. I would be 0 % mad if she stabbed me on accident. Right.? Like seriously, if she thought she was defending, if she thought he was defending our home from an intruder and she got it mixed up, like, I don't know, there's a crazy scenario that we have to create in order for this to happen. I probably would be like,

0:27:38 Thomas: Uh -huh. Yeah. Right. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah.

0:27:42 Eli: Sometimes you accidentally stab somebody. I'd actually be proud of her.

0:27:53 Thomas: I'd be mad that she didn't kill me. If I survived, then I'm like, you're bad at defending our home.

0:27:58 Eli: Hell of a stab.

0:28:00 Thomas: Next

0:28:00 Eli: Haley, I don't know how to say this, but you need stabbing lessons. Let's go to the hospital.

0:28:02 Tom: Yeah, so

0:28:02 Thomas: Yeah? Next time you stab to kill. Still.

0:28:06 Eli: Yeah.

0:28:07 Tom: How you do it. And then grab the knife and stab myself and the other. Got it.

0:28:09 Eli: This is your new stab teacher, Cecil.

0:28:09 Thomas: Yeah.

0:28:11 Tom: Get that.

0:28:11 Eli: Oh, and then Cecil and her fall in love and she ends up cheating on you because he taught her stabbing lesson?

0:28:15 Thomas: But you're dead, so it's fine.

0:28:15 Tom: Yeah but of course I would. Yeah I, I think it would be insane to think the other way honestly like why in the world would I want someone to hurt me on purpose rather

0:28:24 Eli: Well, let me, Thomas,

0:28:25 Tom: Than choose not being hurt No but but I have to choose right so in this scenario I am saying like I would rather be hurt by accident than hurt on purpose and yes every time from someone I love yeah

0:28:25 Thomas: Well, you're not wanting either of them, but yeah. Yeah.

0:28:36 Thomas: I think it complicates it by calling it cheating because then it's like, if you're in an actual like, like Eli's talking about, it's not really cheating. So I guess that kind of complicates the hypothetical. I don't, I don't know what that, the equivalent would be, but I guess my response response would be the other answer would be well being stabbed could be pretty serious and that would injure me quite, uh, extremely possibly. Someone um, else having consensual good times with another person while my feelings could be hurt. That's something I could recover from pretty easily. Kind of how I would think the, response would be what do you think the

0:29:04 Tom: But I right yeah but and I guess like in my view like the one I go to the hospital I probably recover I come back I'm okay I would rather get get hurt. Look, no, but you're, look, something. I would rather be physically hurt than emotionally hurt. I can recover from being physically hurt. I'm not worried about that. But I all in with Haley, right? You guys make fun of me about it, but I am all in. So is a kind of hurt that I am not sure I would fully recover from in ways that are meaningful to me so yeah I and I think

0:29:12 Thomas: Cheating no I'm sorry right yeah that's fair yeah

0:29:38 Eli: A little hurt that I feel like it's being implied that I'm not all, you know, in my marriage just because occasionally I want my wife to get railed.

0:29:41 Tom: No but all in in this way that has these boundaries no no I don't want to be misunderstood because your audience will misunderstand almost on purpose sometimes but like I am all in and monogamy is an important value in my relationship that is an important value between she and I so if she were to cheat on me right not that she had sex with somebody. It's that she has said like, this is a boundary that we've agreed on and I don't respect it. And in order for her to do that, that's just like her slapping me in the face. It's like, yeah, I'm not injured, like injured if she slaps me, right? Like she slams me in the face, like it's not going to break my fucking jaw, but I would absolutely grab a duffel bag and I would leave and I wouldn't come back because like immediately I know there's no more respect for me or that relationship because we've established a boundary. That was sacred in in our relationship and you chose to violate it. Now you guys don't have that same sacred boundaries.

0:29:45 Eli: Ooh, Yeah,

0:30:13 Thomas: I

0:30:34 Tom: So, so there's no analogy there, right?

0:30:36 Eli: Anna can slap me whenever she wants.

0:30:38 Tom: Yeah, like if she did something or if I did something vice versa that like violated a sacred boundary that we like have agreed on, like, yeah, you've got to go. And I, I would rather be physically hurt than emotionally hurt. I've been both and I know which one I prefer.

0:30:50 Thomas: Think I'd rather Lydia cheat on me than I have to hear the hammering that you're having to hear right now, to be honest, with you is there any way

0:30:55 Eli: I almost

0:30:54 Tom: I'm so sorry. I know it's terrible. I feel like such an asshole

0:30:57 Eli: Made a like, she's actually getting railed upstairs right now while Tom does this very beautiful monologue. That's actually, that's the headboard. I don't know if anybody can Hear it. Hey. I just want to be clear, like, sometimes I walk a line and this is a line I don't think any other comedian where I'm like, is Haley gonna beat the shit out of me, and that one feels

0:31:07 Tom: Oh yeah,

0:31:16 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, Eli's genuinely in danger, like for real Talk

0:31:19 Eli: I'm in danger. Yeah, she's gonna stab let me say this. She Stabs me. It affects Tom and Haley's relationship not at all, that's right.

0:31:20 Tom: She will stab you she will stab you. Yeah

0:31:21 Thomas: About Yeah, Yeah. Talk about Suffers for his art, like he's genuinely in

0:31:29 Eli: I'm willing to Sacrifice Here's A good question that occurred to me though just now, Tom, because I I don't know what this is like, would you rather be cheated on and never find out, or and get to spend your life with right, assuming it's not going to slip, the relationship's not gonna be damaged, right, you can't You can add other bad stuff to it, right, the relationship stays as good as it is right now, but you don't know how intense me and Hayley's conversation has gotten, and in a flurry of she's already to beat me up, so I feel like I could

0:31:30 Thomas: Danger because of the jokes. Yeah. Yeah, wow.

0:31:31 Tom: Yeah, Right. Yeah, I got you

0:31:48 Thomas: I love this. This is a good question. Okay.

0:32:00 Thomas: You might

0:32:01 Eli: Just go all the way going Full Dave Chappelle, but just being beaten up by one human.

0:32:01 Thomas: As well. Yeah, you fucking get the mileage out of it. Yeah.

0:32:09 Eli: Our memes have gotten so passionate, finally we culminate our love, but you never find out about it because you were on a work trip on October 27th of 2023. It's so funny because Hayley's gonna absolutely destroy she's so strong.

0:32:15 Tom: Right.

0:32:25 Thomas: That's so good. It's So good. I

0:32:25 Tom: So specific. She's going to rip your fucking heart out and feed it to you.

0:32:31 Eli: She's so much stronger than I am, it's crazy, it's I need to lock myself in a panic room the minute this episode goes up and never leave again.

0:32:35 Thomas: Love it. Tom is literally checking

0:32:41 Eli: Here

0:32:41 Thomas: His calendar right now, by the way, he's just, he's like, was I fucking

0:32:43 Eli: Check

0:32:42 Tom: Yeah. What would happen on October 27th? Was I a ram? No, I'm not.

0:32:46 Eli: The monitor that doesn't have the doggy daycare on it, um, a callback, uh, no, not not get stabbed. Would you rather find out you'd been cheated on, um, end the relationship because that boundary had had been violated, or not find out and have the relationship and never know? Yeah.

0:32:51 Tom: Get stabbed?

0:32:52 Thomas: A but you

0:33:03 Tom: I would rather find out. Yeah, of course. Would rather find out because I don't want to have a relationship that doesn't have at its core honesty through – I don't want dishonesty through obfuscation.

0:33:12 Thomas: Think it does in this. In this hypothetical, though, you still you on your deathbed, you're great, you're your dying words are, uh, yeah, my, my true love always was honest with me and never cheat.

0:33:19 Tom: What's I die and I have no idea that it happened. Yeah. No. No, this scenario – well, because it's – you posit an impossible hypothetical because I have to choose between something I don'T know but I know in the hypothetical to choose from, right? So it is genuinely an impossible hypothetical, but I will say that as a core value, so

0:33:35 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, no, it is pretty tough.

0:33:41 Eli: Very sneaky. Tom, you don't know it's impossible, man.

0:33:43 Tom: I see that, but as a core value I would not want to be in a relationship that had any kind of obfuscation or omission, that work for me, that just wouldn't worked for me. I would rather be hurt to the point of being ruined, but be honest, but be honest. And Thomas, I don't think you're that much different. You value honesty. You and I have talked about honesty at your specific personal disadvantage on many occasions. So I don't know.

0:33:56 Eli: By

0:33:59 Thomas: Jesus. Yeah. No, that's fair. I, yeah. Oh, for sure.

0:34:11 Tom: I don't think that this is much different? It's really not.

0:34:11 Thomas: Yeah yeah. Yeah no, No. I know. I think tying it to an issue that has a lot of other things going on is, it is interesting. Like, like, how, how would I, I'm trying to think of an equivalent scenario, you know, like about something significant, but in a way that, yeah, yeah. What would even an equivalent be? I've got it. Anna is like, okay, I need a really funny joke for a thing I'm gonna do. It's important to me and you and and she, she, an 800 number because she's like, it's not, Eli won't be funny in this instance.

0:34:35 Eli: Don't Thomas, this happened. This happened. Oh,

0:34:44 Thomas: But I'm never I'm ever gonna tell him about it. Like, I'm just gonna, I'm going to get a funny, I'm to say I thought of it. You know, like, you, for all you know, you think Anna thought of the funny bit that was very important, but she called

0:34:44 Eli: That would have been okay, that would've been okay. I'll happened and it was worse. It was worse. Anna was trying to think of a joke and she asked me, I'm so, I'm from a pace of such anguish. She asked me to text Heath, and I completely understood.

0:34:56 Thomas: Oh, wow, oh, no, oh, Oh no, oh no. Oh, oh.

0:35:05 Tom: My god, was

0:35:13 Eli: I was like, oh well, when I murder you and the kids, um, and then say that a guy broke into our house, I'll let you know what I think of as the joke later. I absolutely it

0:35:22 Tom: It a pun? Did she need a pun?

0:35:23 Thomas: If it's it's a pun, the equivalent, by the way, of someone like doing a sex thing that your partner doesn't do.

0:35:25 Eli: It had been a pun, I could kind of understand, in a moment of puncheon right, drunk. Right, if

0:35:33 Thomas: Hey, if you need to go,

0:35:33 Eli: You need, look, I get it, you were both needing a pun it was late I don't

0:35:37 Thomas: I don't do puns. I said, I don't do pun's fair enough.

0:35:39 Eli: Do puns.

0:35:39 Thomas: You know, like, yeah.

0:35:40 Eli: And and, if you need to go out and get that pun on your own, but it was, it was just a bit. She just needed a solid bit and she did not come to the bus. Yeah, so,

0:35:47 Thomas: No, Anna Boz. That is, boy, is this okay to put on the air? Because this is, boy, Jesus, are you okay?

0:35:50 Tom: Cold as ice

0:35:52 Eli: Yeah, I, actually, I have another example of being like, oh, this

0:35:57 Thomas: Are you safe, Eli? Are you save?

0:35:57 Eli: Is what sexual no, I'm not. Let me tell you, I'll have another sample of what sexual jealousy is like. So I mentioned my buddy Rachel, who I've been friends with for years and years and years. And for years, we have said that we were going to get matching tattoos. Matching tattoos, little magnets in the shape of a magnet, because that's what our magic group is called, and we've been together for so long, we're such good friends. And look, she is now part of a magic show in the city that has a logo. And she and some of the cast members from that show got that logo tattooed on their body. And look, I know it's wrong. I, it's wrong, as wrong as sexual jealousy, but I felt it. I legitimately

0:36:02 Tom: Why?

0:36:40 Thomas: Yeah.

0:36:40 Eli: Was like, so is it's not, it's absolutely not, I'm a fucking crazy person, there's nothing wrong her joy is her joy? No,

0:36:46 Thomas: Wait,

0:36:41 Tom: Is that wrong? No, no, why is it wrong for you to feel something about that

0:36:49 Thomas: I agree with Tom. I think that's a valid feeling. So, wait, I just want to get the story straight. You guys didn't end up getting the tattoos?

0:36:51 Tom: Like

0:36:55 Eli: We never got the tattoos, we just haven't gotten around to it. We just hasn't gotten around to, and now I'm sloppy.

0:36:56 Thomas: But why, though? Was it, like, was there a reason? Okay, yeah. You see it as a, like. Like, oh, but she did get around to it with those other musicians,

0:37:06 Eli: Seconds.

0:37:06 Thomas: Magicians.

0:37:07 Eli: Yeah, exactly. Other magic, I'm not even the first magician, I was so excited. I came home because she told me, because she was like, hey, I just want to make sure you're okay and you're not going to be insane. And I was like, I am insane. And she waslike cool, this is great, I'm so glad we're friends. And then I came on, when I was so excited to tell Anna, I waslike I experienced sexual jealousy today. And she wasliked I don't think you did. And iwaslike no, I'm pretty sure these are the same. Let me tell you, this is how, how Tom feels about his marriage. Trust me, it's identical. No,

0:37:05 Tom: Well,

0:37:07 Thomas: Yeah. And magic Group is probably girthier too.

0:37:31 Thomas: Yeah. I mean, I honestly, I think that's

0:37:30 Tom: I like, wait, to, I want to ask you, I wantt to ask a question, because this is like, Like, like, is there nothing in your relationship, Eli, that is actually sacred and exclusive? And if there is, I

0:37:37 Thomas: Valid.

0:37:48 Thomas: Imagine a violation of that kind of thing. Like, yeah.

0:37:50 Tom: Yeah. So, no. OK, sorry. So there is nothing in Your Relationship that you hold as sacred and exclusive just between the two of you.

0:37:57 Eli: I think harm free, yes, like, because you guys asked this once and it was a really good question, which was like, hey, what are your boundaries? And I was like, what are boundaries? And we just sort of moved on in the way that we, yeah, that's

0:38:02 Thomas: Yeah.

0:38:07 Tom: But this is different than boundaries. Like, I want to know what things you and Anna, because, because my follow up is, what differentiates your relationship with Anna from your relationship with anyone else if there is nothing sacred and nothing exclusive? Makes that relationship special, then?

0:38:23 Eli: A great question because

0:38:24 Thomas: You did answer it. It was like time and giving time. Like, I thank you. I think you did answered back in the day.

0:38:27 Eli: But even then, I, I wouldn't wait. Cause the, the problem with those answers is, I wouldn't resent if they changed in her dynamic.

0:38:35 Thomas: Oh, like you would, you could adjust the dynamic to kind of.

0:38:37 Eli: Right. So like, for me, it's like, but we're married, right. Is my first answer. But if Anna fell in love with and married someone else, I don't think I would be like mad about that. I think I Would just be really, I

0:38:38 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Oh? Wow. So you change up your like relationship, do

0:38:49 Tom: Take mad, would you be hurt by it?

0:38:51 Eli: Don't think so. Don't Think so.

0:38:54 Thomas: You have a self? Yeah.

0:38:55 Eli: This is what I'm trying I know I was mad about the tattoos, so I know I have a self that's capable of offense.

0:38:57 Thomas: No,

0:39:02 Tom: Not even about offense. A lot of really I think equally toxic language is used in the reverse with I see this shit online, with people who put pressure on monogamous people people as you just have to overcome your insecurities. You just have to overcome Your jealousy. That's bullshit. Like, yeah.

0:39:15 Eli: Yes! Were talking about this, that she wants to have me come on Talking Ship to just make fun of a polyamory circle jerk. Have you read it? I don't know if you were all... Have you seen this? Thomas, you have to check this out. It's just people posting about how absolutely awful their polyamorous relationship is, but being like, I love it. It''s great.

0:39:27 Tom: Yes. Yeah, yeah

0:39:36 Thomas: Yeah, there's a lot of really horrible

0:39:37 Tom: They're at home, like holding their heads and weeping as like their spouses are off like on a date or whatever.

0:39:38 Thomas: Yeah yeah yeah, for sure Yeah, there're a lot really horrible practices that people get convince themselves are good and are not. Yeah.

0:39:49 Tom: See like it all the time that there's this like, well, you know, like the only reason that you like value monogamy is because you're jealous or you're insecure. I don't believe that that's the case. I don'T THINK THAT THAT'S THE CASE AT ALL. LIKE, AS SOON AS I MOVE IT AWAY FROM SEX, AND I ASK ABOUT EMOTIONS OR OTHER THINGS THAT YOU HOLD SACRED, IT SEEMS INSANE TO BE IN A MARRIAGE WITH SOMEBODY, TO ME, WHERE THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT THAT RELATIONSHIP THAT

0:39:50 Eli: No.

0:40:13 Thomas: Well, that I agree with. I'm with I'm with you on that.

0:40:15 Tom: YOU DECIDE IS SACRATE. SO, LIKE WHAT WE DECIDES SACRADE IS AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN OURSELVES. AND I DON'T CARE WHAT YOUR DECISIONS ARE. AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE WITH MY DECisions. But it's weird to apart from everyone else.

0:40:16 Thomas: Yeah.

0:40:27 Thomas: Let me try something on your time, because this is something that I that.

0:40:28 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Does that not seem like a good point? Doesn't there have to be something sacred?

0:40:33 Thomas: Oh,

0:40:32 Eli: I think it's a really good point. Yeah, I'm

0:40:33 Thomas: Yeah, it's a great. No, I was agreeing. Sorry. I was saying, yes, I agree. I agree with that. And also, but he

0:40:35 Tom: Yeah.

0:40:38 Eli: Gonna cry quietly in the background of the rest of the book, look.

0:40:40 Tom: I'm not trying to hurt you at all. I'm very much the opposite of that. I think, yeah, I am very much the opposite. I'm trying to understand. Because I think holding something sacred and separate is okay.

0:40:50 Thomas: Me, here's where I really relate to Eli, I'll say. I have a really brass tacks, I guess, way of looking at the world where it's like when if the different fact about the world. Imagine two, two one in which, you know, your wife, uh, true to you forever, never cheats on you, blah, blah. And the other where she does cheat on you in, in, but in 27th, I think it was, yeah. Well, that keeps straight. Um, and okay.

0:41:12 Eli: 23rd of 2023, it was actually twice. I'm

0:41:18 Thomas: Gotcha.

0:41:19 Eli: Trying to break this to Tom the easy way.

0:41:21 Thomas: Yeah. Drip. It's good to do a slow drip. That's a good way to do it. Yeah, but like, if the, I

0:41:23 Eli: Yeah,

0:41:24 Tom: To break it to me? Okay. We'll see if it's broken.

0:41:30 Eli: You Feel better, right? I don't.

0:41:30 Tom: It won't be me.

0:41:35 Eli: Interesting.

0:41:36 Thomas: Guess the part, the part where I relate is if the difference between those two realities was in one, your partner was like, well, I did sign a contract that did mean, you know, like I did make a commitment to not do this, so I'm not going to do it. And the other was that they didn't do that. I guess what I don't get a lot of value. Here's how I'll rephrase it in a way that I think is maybe Tom-esque. It might appeal to you, Tom. I don't get a lot of value out of someone acting in a way toward me because they feel obligated by rules or something to do so.

0:42:07 Thomas: You know what I mean? So, like, that's where I really relate to Eli. Like, if somebody, if my partner has feelings for someone else in away, I don'T really get a LOT out of having them be unhappy or contain that because of rules that our religious society made up. Like, I DON'T get anything out of that, you know?

0:42:06 Tom: Oh, same. Yeah, 1 ,000%. Yeah, yeah, 1 .000%.

0:42:28 Tom: I don't want, and let me be clear. I don't want to, and I'm going to speak for Haley. I'll speak for myself. Have all the sex with all the partners that I want to have. There's nothing about my monogamous lifestyle which feels restrictive to me at all, in any way. Like, I have 0 % feel restricted in that lifestyle. Because it appeals to me, right?

0:42:52 Thomas: Mm hmm.

0:42:53 Tom: I don't want to have sex with other, it's not like I want to have sex with other people, and instead I'm like, oh, hold back, because this is this thing that we've agreed to, but really what I want is this other thing that I'm agreeing not to do, because something something it'll make us feel happier like that's not the case at all it's not the case even one percent

0:43:10 Eli: Fascinating.

0:43:09 Thomas: Yeah, Yeah, but I know you want to only talk for yourself, but I think it's important because the question is about how you would feel with someone else like that. So take take hypothetical. Say someone married you, not because they feel entirely one million percent like you do, but because they want to be with you. They want to being monogamous. But but that that means kind of overcoming some other desires they have or something for the sake of the rules of monogamy.

0:43:12 Tom: Oh yeah so I yeah no, it's a great question, but those are conversations that like, genuinely, that like, we've explicitly had before we got married and feelings that we explored explicitly, and I feel confident that she does not have those feelings, and that if she did, I would not have married her. I would have broken off that relationship and found somebody else that felt way I feel, because that's a value that I hold.

So, and it's not a small value that I hold, and and I think you guys are different than I am, but like, I do genuinely think, and I think I've got a rational belief that I can expound upon, but I do think that sex is qualitatively different than other experiences people. I think significant personal and cultural ways. It doesn't analogize to other activities people do. So in that way, I feel very comfortable saying, okay, I'm going to put in a category over here.

And for me, it is very much connected to emotional fidelity. I know it's not for everybody else, that's okay, I get it, right? I'm not trying to like make this writ large for other people, but like, it very easily is for me, like just a very simple kind of like a, like equal sign for me.

0:43:36 Thomas: Yeah

0:44:40 Eli: That's really interesting and sort of speaks to my own biases and misunderstanding. I assumed that most committed monogamous people were under the impression that yes, of course I would like to have sex with other people, but I value these other things like loyalty and fidelity more. Um, There's just not important to me.

0:44:55 Thomas: Think that is kind of how a lot of people are, I think Tom might be just unique, yeah he's

0:45:06 Eli: Well, yeah, no, I'm really interested to hear this other viewpoint. Cause like Tom, just picture it, right? Cause I've lost a little bit of weight and we're doing a Chicago live show and I'm looking scrumptious the next time you see me.

0:45:12 Tom: Sure come on bye buddy yeah

0:45:18 Thomas: In his Dallas Cowboys cheerleader outfit that he put on for our

0:45:20 Eli: Exactly. What do you do when you see a scrumptious fellow podcaster like myself, is that, because I think one of the straw men that polyamorous people often put forward is like, so you don't find other people attractive, and I think recognizing that someone's attractive, I

0:45:22 Thomas: Tom's like no, I don't for

0:45:34 Tom: No of course other people are attractive, right? It's, it's sort of like, I mean, and I don't know how to like explain this in a way that like will make sense, but like, like if I see somebody, if I see somebody attractive, I'm not like a fool, okay. No, I actually have a perfect analogy, I am, well maybe this isn't perfect for you guys, but I am very comfortably on the spectrum of sexuality, I'm very comfortably heterosexual, like, as I don't have any homosexual feelings that I'm aware of and have never had homosexual attraction, that being said, I can look at an attractive man no I can look I can look at an attractive man and recognize that's a good looking dude, right, I'm not like stupid, I can see somebody and be like, yeah, Jason Momo is a good -looking dude, or like Ryan Reynolds a good look and dude, but I'm sexually attracted to him

0:45:42 Eli: As the example please just me I'll suck a dick I like

0:46:05 Thomas: Money or but the can you feel like oh I feel attracted to that person but I don't that said you don't want to act on it the

0:46:23 Tom: But no I I'm, I'm actually attracted to people that I I guess like I I like Like, I can recognize that a woman is is sexual, attractive. I'm not a fool. Like, I can't be like, oh, I just don't see anybody. Like, everybody's body is shaped the same. Like, nobody is that way.

0:46:28 Thomas: Fuck I don't yeah I don' know

0:46:40 Eli: I'm such a sex weirdo that Tom had to acknowledge, like, hey, I've got a pretty good metaphor, it's not gonna work on Eli because he'll, he'll fuck a door post that'll consent, so yeah, I understand, this one's gonna be a swing and a miss on the Pause, but maybe the folks at home will like this song. No.

0:46:45 Tom: No, I worry

0:46:48 Thomas: No

0:46:57 Tom: You won't believe me. But, like, an attractive woman, like an attractive woman for me is the same as Jason Momoa. It's like, yeah, that's an attractive woman. And it's just sort of like a, I don't want to, but Well, like, I'm not like, yeah, I'd fuck her if I could, you

0:46:59 Thomas: I believe you yeah

0:47:00 Eli: I believe you you and me both baby

0:47:07 Thomas: Well it's a little different because I would bottom for Jason Momoa more you know, like, although

0:47:15 Tom: Know,

0:47:13 Eli: That's how you know you mean it

0:47:17 Tom: Don't know, like it's not like being monogamous is not challenging.

0:47:20 Thomas: Is a TikTok girl all, I see you chops wood from time to time. And I think I could, I, yeah, that could. All right. I'm trying, I'm just trying to make it work for me. You know, Tom, just trying to,

0:47:27 Tom: But does

0:47:24 Eli: Oh yeah we're trying to we're turning on I think it's gonna make sense for a lot of people, yeah yeah that

0:47:30 Tom: That analogy make sense? Does that analogy makes sense?

0:47:30 Thomas: Oh, Tom. I, we want to, so the issue that we're trying to do is we're trying to assess Tom. How How, representative are you? And I think not at all is really the answer. It's not about, it's not about doubting it. Cause I think there's a layer of what you could have been. That's even pretty far to the fucking monogamy end of the the spectrum, which is, oh yeah, I feel some attraction, but I have no desire to act on it whatsoever. Even that would be like pretty, you the monogamy end. And you're like, no, I literally don't even like, I mentally know someone's attractive, but I don't have any feeling of it.

0:47:52 Tom: Well, can speak to that from experience, too. I I I can Speak to both ends of the spectrum. So like I have been in relationships where I did not have the same feelings that I have for Haley. Right. So I have been in relationship. I spent most of my life in a relationship with somebody that I like did not actually deeply love. And I very much had like sexual attraction. I would get crushes on people. I would be attracted to people like never acted on any of it because I knew that that was inappropriate. And I have a value system that says like, this is not something I'm going to do. Like, so I'm never going to act on, I'm ever going to flirt. I'm Never going to make it known. I'm gonna try to like, make sure that that's a part of myself that, and

0:48:10 Thomas: Okay.

0:48:39 Thomas: Tom, We can one million percent edit this out, a hundred percent, but like, do you, do you look at porn? Do you not have What

0:48:46 Tom: Not anymore now. Not since I, since I learned more about the industry.

0:48:47 Thomas: The Fucking Oh okay, but

0:48:51 Eli: Sound in the background's been him jerking off this whole Time, it's The only way, yeah What

0:48:53 Tom: Yeah. We we. Don't have to edit this out. I don't mind. Yeah. Like, no, I don. I, there's sort of a couple, there's a several reasons I don look at porn. I think like, Porn as an, I don't, I'm not a hundred percent convinced that my ability to vet porn for its ethics is good enough for me to feel comfortable with it. I think as an industry, it

0:48:58 Thomas: Okay So That's not connected to your, or is that a different decision than

0:49:07 Eli: About Like ethical porn, what If I send you a Video of me skronking it along With a Signed Statement, first of all, watch it, I've said this A thousand Times in Our private chat

0:49:19 Tom: Wouldn't get me off.

0:49:21 Thomas: Yeah Yeah Exactly Don't Judge a book by its cover You know, know?

0:49:27 Eli: What You don't have any other options, Tom, so maybe take This gift there

0:49:30 Tom: Well, Separately, I think pornography as an industry – we don't go down this road. I think pornography as an history is – got a lot of ethical issues with it that I'm not comfortable with as a consumer.

0:49:35 Thomas: Okay. Okay, well, it's just for, for the sake of conversation, it is a hypothetical thought experiment, perfectly ethical porn. You are saying, no, still do not.

0:49:46 Tom: I still wouldn't. No, I still Wouldn't.

0:49:48 Thomas: Well, I do not, I don't get it. I do, I did not get it, I do not at all get it I will never get it that is the weirdest thing I have ever heard.

0:49:48 Tom: It would feel – it would – yeah – Yeah. Yeah. No, I,

0:49:56 Thomas: Okay know the like the joke format that is like this guy makes this guy look like this this guy. That's, that's like, Tom makes me look like Eli.

0:49:56 Tom: Yeah, know. Like, and

0:50:04 Eli: Tom makes Tom look like Tom.

0:50:06 Thomas: No, no, it's, no. It's Tom makes Thomas look like Elie. Like when it comes to the, this discussion, you know, like I'm like, well, well, you now, yeah, I know. Why don't you fucking, but

0:50:11 Eli: I wish that I wasn't always the third item in all of those references. I mean, I get why it's I'd also let my wife stab me and not really care about it. So, you know,

0:50:21 Thomas: Can she stab someone else? Is that okay?

0:50:24 Eli: Yep, are you kidding, so much more okay if I come upstairs and she's drenched in blood and she was like, "Sorry, I stabbed someone." I'd be like, "So, I'm gonna make a garden loaf tonight." Oh, you want me to ask, sorry, who did you stab? All- Before we go, you guys want to hear a joke about paper? I'm going to warn you ahead of time, it's terrible. Oh,

0:51:00 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:51:39 Eli: Sometimes you accidentally stab somebody.