DOD97: We Never Liked Your Ex

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: To Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's got some shit to say. I'm Tom Curry, I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen

0:00:36 Thomas: Boy. Oh boy, you know, this is, this is, here's the thing about this podcast, it's just not that important, you, it's not serious, we're not going to end up together, the three of us, so like, let's just not, let's not even do it, let's not even record an episode, because it's not like we're going to podcast for our whole lives.

0:00:55 Eli: Uh, Tom, Thomas is reading my message to you guys from this morning on the air and we agreed that was private.

0:00:58 Thomas: Oh, sorry, yeah, was that for Whoops.

0:01:04 Tom: Okay, week, I wanted to talk to you guys, um, going to acknowledge here that I'm to be a little oblique so I don't up my kid's spot here, but we've been having some, some issues happening in our house, and you know, one of the things that's occurred, heard, to me is that, um, comes a point in a relationship and I don't know when it is, where I feel obligated as the parent, where I feeling obligated is, is the parent to step in and say, Hey, this relationship is bad for you.

0:01:30 Eli: Yeah.

0:01:30 Tom: Like, this has not in your best interest and not because the other person is being abusive or And not because the other percent, cause that's easy answer shit. Right. Just because like, Hey Hey, you're taking this way too seriously. You're too young, you know, like, Hey, like this person is really just not a good match for you in terms of like, you're not going to get to your goals the same way they're going to achieve their

0:01:21 Thomas: Episode. Episode. Right

0:01:40 Eli: Mm -hmm.

0:01:51 Thomas: Tom,

0:01:52 Tom: Goals.

0:01:52 Thomas: I got to ask, is this at all related to the story you've told on this show about one of your kids' partners taking them to a church about hating gay people? Is it at all maybe related to that?

0:01:52 Tom: Right.

0:01:52 Eli: Yeah. Right.

0:02:01 Tom: It is related. It is related, it ist related. So, absolutely related It to that, but you know it also occurred to me when I was thinking about this idea that, had the same experience. And I don't know if you guys did with any of your ex -partners, but when I split with my ex, after 20 years, all of a sudden I discovered that my dad never liked her, you know, and my friends, you know, 20 years. I never hear word one, right?

I never hear a fucking bad word about it. Like Haley had the same thing. She was with people when she was a teenager, especially, you was in relationships that weren't good and they weren't good for her and her parents never raised their hands and said, hey, I just don't think this is a good relationship for you. I think they're like, you're not seeing clearly what's happening, I think this isn't in your best interest.

Not even necessarily like I said, abusive relationships, but just relationships where you're like, hey, you don't have the perspective because you're in it and you're young. And I know so many people who, it's like, as soon as they say they have an ex, everyone in the woodwork is like, oh my god, finally, that person was a giant piece of shit for

0:03:03 Thomas: Yeah.

0:03:03 Tom: 20 years.

0:03:03 Thomas: There's a lot going on there, there's a lot of factors, not the least of which is, Tom, I don't know how to say this, what if somebody right now told you that your relationship sucked and your partner sucked? Do you think you'd be open to that, you would would no long longer exist to you so like Like, this is purely a joke, but Like, I don't know. Maybe they didn't want to tell you that about your ex because they were worried about no longer having a human appearance to you anymore.

0:03:16 Eli: Deleted your existence off the internet. I can't see you. I CAN'T SEE YOU. You. Just blew away like the dust from Avengers just so you know I can't see you and I

0:03:17 Tom: No.

0:03:31 Tom: Yeah. Look Fair, but I will say that Hayley and I got together, and I was ready to propose, one of my closest friends pulled me to the side and he said, "Hey, like, know you really love this lady, but like you're in the honeymoon phase right now. And I need you to look in the eye and tell me some things about her that you give pause." It was a moment where he wanted to make sure that I was seeing clearly. It was a really well-intentioned moment. And I appreciated that, well - intentioned moment and I knew it for what it was.

0:03:59 Thomas: And that fucker is dead to you. No, I'm just kidding.

0:04:01 Eli: Said To that I said to Cecil listen, we have a podcast to record.

0:04:02 Thomas: I buried him. Yeah.

0:04:02 Tom: No, it wasn't. Actually wasn't Cecil. But it like was another close friend of mine that I've had for a long, long time. And like he he was 100% supportive of my relationship with Haley, but he was checking in with me. Right. He was checking in to make sure like, and he was honest. He's like, you're still in the honeymoon phase and you've got rose colored glasses on. You're about to make a big decision. And he said it, So you like, I'm going to need you to like, tell this to me. Right. So like I think there are ways that even people like me can be approached, coached, acknowledging

0:04:09 Eli: Oh,

0:04:16 Thomas: Yeah. Mm -hmm. No. And that also comes from like, not, specific not to you, but we just, we all know that guy who, you divorced and then immediately gets with somebody. And then that's not the best for like, we All know that type. So I'm sure this person was going based on like that kind of stereotype as well.

0:04:43 Eli: Yeah, that's the best Oh,

0:04:42 Tom: It's a total trope. Like raised I my hand and be like, yeah, I did a tropey fucking cliche thing, right? Fairly Swiftly.

0:04:48 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, Mm-hmm. Cliches for a reason, man.

0:04:53 Tom: Right,

0:04:54 Eli: It's but When someone does that to your friend group, there's fucking nothing better. There's, well, sorry, I should say there's nothing better than to be me, who's a wild animal socially, so it doesn't matter. But there's something better than when someone's like, "This is Chrysanthemum, she's four," um, and she's afraid of prepositions. So if everyone could just leave those out of this. And you watch all your kind, sweet friends be like, "So, Chrysanthemum, I, I don't feel super confident in what prepositions are. I, I, I, um, tell me about your crystals or whatever the fuck." And I just get to be like, wow, we're all so fucking tense right now. Oh my gosh, right? It's the worst.

0:04:55 Tom: Oh.

0:05:11 Tom: My God.

0:05:38 Eli: Anyways, I'm wearing pajama pants, I'll see you guys later.

0:05:42 Thomas: Well, with four and, oh no, I forgot all the other prepositions, but yeah.

0:05:50 Tom: I think too, like it matters a whole lot what your relationship is with somebody that's giving you this kind of unsolicited feedback, right? Will say, like, with with my kids, really do seek us out for advice on all kinds of really personal stuff. So we've got that relationship where I feel like I could go up to at least the older two and I could say, "Hey man, like we need to talk, I have some concerns and I just want to put them out there for you to hear, and then we can be done with it." But I need you to just kind of hear me out here. They would not resent that a bit, because we've got that relationship where they come and they say, like, "Hey, I need advice on this," you know, and that's kind of the relationship we have.

0:05:54 Thomas: Yeah, Absolutely, yeah. Yeah.

0:05:56 Eli: Sure.

0:06:25 Tom: I So don't know that I would have been receptive to that from my own dad, right? Cause my dad and I did not have a mentor mentee kind of relationship. We had a very authoritarian structured relationship. So like if my dad had given me advice, I don'T know how how receptive I would have been to it. To Right. Your point, Thomas, I don't know.

0:06:28 Thomas: Yeah, Yeah, but Yeah, but this is such an interesting topic. I know there's probably, there's more you're going to tell us, but, like, just that principle, separate all the the you, personal, everything of us, and all the all that aside, just like, when your friend is in any new relationship or something and you're like trying to balance, look, for one thing, things are subjective, you know, like maybe their new partner, maybe I'm not a huge fan, but also, am I the judge of like who's cool? I don't know, because I don't like really anyone, so this would be me every single conversation, like, forever ever.

And it'd be like, "Oh, I just don't like people as much as other people like people." And so, I, it is a balancing act of, like, but when is it over that line where you're like, "Yeah, but this is, I need to say something here." You know what I mean? Cause you do want to respect people's autonomy and decision-making and tastes and, and like how, hold on, hold on. How cool is your friend? Whoever this is. Maybe they also kind of fucking suck. So you're Like, well, maybe

0:07:04 Eli: Disagree. Yes. Absolutely. 100. Not necessarily that's true, sometimes sucky people get with sucky people and You're like good for them, fuck,

0:07:39 Thomas: That. Yep. Yep, and you're you're like, maybe no harm, no foul. Like it's kind of even like maybe, yeah. Like, all right.

0:07:45 Tom: That's true.

0:07:43 Eli: Yeah, Yeah, that rules when when two people who are trash in your life find each other, and you know, you're just like, "Yeah, you guys should do shots on a Tuesday night." Fuck yeah.

0:07:47 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:07:56 Tom: We were They were just talking about this yesterday. Like the the, goal should be to get like all the good people hooked up with each other and just leave the assholes in their own pool. Right? And then you're just like, I dunno, like whatever happens and see you guys who cares like

0:08:03 Thomas: Yeah. And

0:08:04 Eli: Just constantly constantly breaking up on Facebook.

0:08:07 Thomas: Or have you have those friends that are kind of such a disaster that you're, no matter what the relationship is, you don't even really care much. You're just just like, yes, awesome. You don't even really need to.

0:08:17 Eli: Yes. Oh, sad, boy and sad girl. When you can put them together, that's the fucking golden puzzle, right?

0:08:22 Thomas: Well, I'm saying you only know one of them. So like, there's no information about the person they're with that would matter because, you know, they're such a disaster. You know what I mean? Like.

0:08:31 Eli: But they adopted your buddy like a, like a three -legged dog. And you're just like, oh, you're so good to do that. Right? Like when you have friends who has a rescue cat and you're like, you'RE SUCH A GREAT PERSON. And then someone starts dating your friend who always smells a little like onion dip. And Thank you so much. Did you find him in the paper? I'm sorry. I'm Sorry There's Not a Personality Under the Onion Dip Smell. That's just, we, um, no, movies do often tell you that if a person is weird on the outside, they're good on the inside. But nope, sometimes it's honey all the way down to the bottom of the pot.

0:08:46 Tom: I wonder

0:08:52 Thomas: Like, just onion dip. Yeah. Chips.

0:09:04 Tom: A way to do this in a way that that you build credibility as they move through relationships in other words like if if you have somebody in your life and you want to give them some like advice or like you you've see a relationship like that's not a good one it shouldn't be if you are able to sort of gently point that out in a way and then that relationship goes bad do you build credibility

0:09:20 Thomas: Yeah. I think it's a totally lose -lose. I think you, you say, oh, I never liked that person and you're right. Then there are still mad at you for being right or for, You know what I mean? Like, it's just entirely lose lose.

0:09:34 Eli: Yes, yeah. That's, that's, what I'm going to say, Tom, is your goal to be listened to in the future or is your gold to be a sounding board? Because my goal has always been, take no prisoners, listen to me. With the young people I mentor, with my family members who are younger than me, and between me and my dad, it was like, I'm going to tell you what happens. I'm gonna tell you the truth. You're not going to like it, but maybe you'll fucking listen because I'm 0 for 11, right? My favorite catchphrase with the young people in my life is, "Now is the before time." And then I explained to them what will happen in the after time. And multiple times I've been like, "Hey, just so you know, now was the after time." So next time the before time comes around, will you listen to me? And they're like, "Yeah."

0:10:00 Thomas: Nope.

0:10:16 Thomas: Nope.

0:10:16 Eli: Man, yeah, I just thought maybe meth would be a good way for her to build up her pottery studio. And I'm like, yeah, I know you did, buddy. And then, but here's the thing, they never listen, or change, so if the goal in,

0:10:25 Thomas: Yeah. Never No.

0:10:28 Tom: You don't think it works at all you don'T think it ever works like people don't really listen

0:10:30 Thomas: It's Lose Lose

0:10:30 Eli: My Humble Christian prophet, Christ of Nazareth experience there is literally nothing you can say to a person where they will believe you now. I'll use

0:10:34 Thomas: Yeah, Yep, this Is why You have to turn into, sorry, to cut in, Eli, well, I'm Realizing the comparison is, you have to turn into those idiots in and maybe they're not idiots in the first Trump administration who are like, "All right, but we're sticking around because otherwise who's gonna fucking steer of the ship." Like, "If we got to stay, because, so we can't, you know, you can't really fucking blow up your relationship with Trump because who's gonna tell him, you know, not to fucking nuke that country or this country." And we're all like, "You piece of shit." And then you see, like, what happened in the later administration and, like, next administration of his, and you're like, "Well, maybe if there were good people around him." Fuck, maybe that would have been better.

It's like that. Are you saying, when you have this friend, do you keep yourself in that zone of, like, "Now, look, I'm imperfect in different ways." You know, like, you're really trying to soft pedal it so that you can stick around. So you're still there in the decision-making room. You're in the room where it happens, but you haven't, you know, like, you're trying to do all that you're allowed to do without them kind of losing it at you.

0:10:47 Tom: I feel like I've gotten through to people before see I don't know like I I feel like I 'VE GOT A FEW PEOPLE IN MY LIFE THREE OR FOUR THAT COME TO ME AND THEY'RE LIKE BECAUSE I'M NOT A SOUNDING BOARD GUY I'M I not don'T WANT YOU TO LIKE COME I'm like I'm just gonna like listen in this sort of like neutral emotional Switzerland space I just don't do that and like people don't seem to want that and I do feel like I've had adults at least where I've been able to be like all right I gotta ask you some questions after you tell me you tell me this story I got some questions and then I ask him a bunch of questions and they're pretty directed no bullshit questions and They feel very comfortable with that like advice that comes from from those questions. So I feel like with adults in my life, I've been able to help steer the ship in ways that, you they very often have acted on and appreciated. Do you think like that's different with kids? Or do you just think that's like not a real experience?

0:12:08 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, Oh,

0:12:25 Eli: Oh, No,

0:12:28 Thomas: I think that those are unique scenarios you're in, I think that's lucky that you have developed those relationships where that works. I think that your average person, it just doesn't fucking work.

0:12:40 Eli: Let me throw this out there, I think there might be the difference. Because, right, if we're using Tom as the success and me as the measurable 100% failure, which I can assure you I am, I've never been listened to. No matter how obviously I am right, everyone looks at me and they're like, "Yeah, man, you're right." And then they fucking go and do the thing. And I'm like, "Hey, we did it, everybody." So, words, if you're the right and I'm 100% not listened to, I think it might be the fact that you just hinted at, which is, I want to ask you some questions, which is that you are not sitting someone down and being like, "Hey, just so you know, I could not remember your boyfriend's name every time he stopped saying it, and so stop sitting him across from me at dinner because we're going to get along eventually. I'm not learning his name, he's not real, he's a mannequin, I'm Not gonna learn

0:12:49 Tom: It's really. Okay. Very different approaches.

0:13:32 Eli: It. Right, and I I, the In all seriousness, I think the Socratic, I know that's such a loaded word, but like, the the place of questions of genuine interest in their answers, yeah, I know, for real, I'm on the Blaze next week, everybody check it out, um, like that place, the of genuine interests you're coming from, even when the questions are hard, because they are questions and not like, like dictation, because they aren't like commands from on high. I think you're going to have significantly more success than

0:13:31 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah, It's the worst. Okay. Peter Bigosian, you're gonna fucking I

0:13:32 Tom: Admittedly, very different approaches, yeah.

0:14:01 Thomas: Think

0:14:02 Eli: I have. I, just can't not be right. Right. There's a moment in those moments, right. Where asking a question where you're like, so like, do you think math is a good way for her to start her pottery studio? And they're like yeah, man, like it's really good money. And as a, like a good doxastic partner, you have to be like, like, okay, okay. Well, let me ask you this. And I can't do that. I have to be like, wrong. You failed my surprise quiz. You have failed. Now you have to listen to me because were wrong.

0:14:08 Thomas: Yep. Yeah, Yeah, That's Is fascinating because I didn't think there was any bigger asshole in the world than me, but maybe it's Eli, that's weird because

0:14:41 Eli: The postcolonic of Dear Old Dads.

0:14:43 Thomas: We can Three Bears this, because I started like that in my life, as you could imagine, and then at a certain point I did the thing that I always do, which is I figured, figure it out. "Hey, people don't like that, like, a lot." And so I do a mix of both of these methods. I'm essentially like, "Yeah, do you want, like, do you want real advice?

Do you want advice?" Or you just, you know, you try to suss it out, and if you suss out that, like, they don't really, they're not going to listen, then you're like, "That person is great. Awesome for you.

So happy for you both." But if you get the sense, or, you know, if they express, or you get this sense that they actually do want to know what you think, it's like, "Okay, well, uh, get comfortable, uh," and I've, it's funny because the times I can think of it, um, been female friends of ours, uh, you, like, they're attracted to the worst men, that's been, I can figure, like, two examples of that, those are the ones that come to mind where, not, they, they may even already be aware of it, but funny about that situation is it's so fucking predictable that it, it actually doesn't matter what you say.

Like, in this specific situation with these friends who I love, I love them both. They're, one of them is, are, sad that she lives far away from us, but, um, she's like, one, we just, Lydia and I both just love her so much. Like, she's just the best, but, like, she had this issue where she was always attracted to the worst fucking guy. Like, attracted to being treated badly, somehow,

0:16:05 Eli: Sure.

0:16:05 Thomas: You who they go for. And so back more in my Eli phase, apparently when we first started talking to her, the minute she opened her mouth and started saying word one about this guy, I didn't know this guy, but she just started like, you know, oh, I'm having the boyfriend issues, you know, okay, we're talking and, you know, you know me, I've kind of spaced out and ADHD -ing, but Lydia's listening intently and being patient and doing doing all the things that a friend's supposed to do. And then one second into the story, I'm like, oh, this guy fucking sucks. This guy really fucking sucks, and it's objectively true. Like, this me being me. This is like, Oh, I am sorry. He was like waiting outside your apartment and checking if you were talking to another person. And, you know, these people, this poor friend, they'll present these things because their compass is broken, I guess, in a like, is this okay? Like, I don't know. No, I feel a little weird that he was like, you know, fucking cyber stalking

0:16:05 Eli: Yeah. TM ,TM.

0:16:40 Tom: Right.

0:17:00 Eli: It's always weird. Weird is always the word. He did this weird thing where he killed my cat. And And you're like, is weird the word?

0:17:01 Thomas: Me. And yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's a little word. Yeah, and it

0:17:09 Tom: It's a little awkward when he slept with my mom.

0:17:12 Thomas: Yeah, two sentences into a guy. Didn't know and I was like, "No, this is the worst. This guy is the word," but it didn't matter really because she, she went into a adorable phase of like, she did believe us eventually, or I say us, she believed me eventually, you, you know, and she would keep trying to go for examples that I think she knew were going to be more horrible examples, but like she'd bring it up. "Well, okay. But there really, there was a time," and it's like, "Even worse." And you're like, "Yeah, no, this guy fucking sucks." But what the problem is, like, she's only attracted to that exact guy who sucks. So it became this interesting scenario where it was all, all the information was out there. It was like, "No, I hate that guy. We're not going to interact with him. Don't bring him over. We're not doing that. He fucking sucks. He's a piece of shit. Just let us know when you break up with him," and eventually she did. And it was like, "Yeah, all right."

0:17:55 Eli: Yeah.

0:17:55 Thomas: That was the one time it worked out. Yeah. She wasn't mad, but she also didn't listen. That's the thing. She, like, she couldn't listen because you know, sometimes people just aren't really able to, it'S more of an emotional or a feelings or an attraction thing. So that's, I'm not sure how to classify that one, I guess, but, but yeah, go ahead.

0:17:55 Tom: Yeah, Trex.

0:18:09 Eli: Well, Thomas, here's the problem. If you become a coward, like you obviously have, you don't get this moment, which I get all the time, which is, hey, do you remember when X happened and Y happened and Z happened? And they're like. Yeah. And I'm like, you're bad at making decisions about your life. You should let me make this decision about your wife.

0:18:14 Thomas: Yeah.

0:18:33 Eli: Life Give it to me now. Just do what I tell you, because you're bad at it. You're bad at this thing.

0:18:32 Thomas: Here is power of attorney. If you sign here.

0:18:41 Thomas: People love this. People love that. They love nothing more.

0:18:44 Eli: I I once told a friend, you're

0:18:45 Thomas: You know what, Eli? You're going to be greeted as a liberator. You're doing great. You're not going to get to be greeted as liberator... Sorry,

0:18:49 Eli: You and doesn't matter, because the satisfaction of the moment where then it goes wrong and I'm like, well, we all did our best to help you. That's more important than their health, safety, and well-being, because that was always going to take the damage. Now it's about my health, safety, and well-being. Oh, once telling a friend, I was like, you make bad decisions, you should let me make it. And he was like, no, man, like, you can't say that to people. And I was like, look, some people are not good at making decisions. Some people aren't tall. You wouldn't sit here and be like, I'm tall, you're not, you're not tall. Yeah.

0:18:56 Thomas: Yeah.

0:19:05 Tom: Did

0:19:11 Thomas: Sorry, Yeah. Yeah, the Florida governor and DeSantis, maybe you'd, you know, wear some lifts and get... There are that... Yeah.

0:19:31 Eli: Seven two and 360 pounds. Yeah, so

0:19:36 Tom: Your parents ever like get involved? I'm curious, did your, ever in a bad relationship, like, and your parents ever like actually knocked on your door and were like, like, all right, this is no fucking good. And did it work?

0:19:40 Thomas: No.

0:19:46 Tom: Did it work from your dad?

0:19:40 Eli: Constantly and it well it. Here's the thing. It didn't work, but it became a subconscious thing where I would be like, ah, fuck, I know he's right. Right. Because here's the thing, my dad, instantly, right, first level Thomas and current level Eli, right, he'd be like, oh, no, you guys shouldn't end up together, I don't think this is a good idea, and I think you should end it now.

0:20:04 Eli: And I'd be like, come on, dad, go. But he was right. So many times in the row that when he said it, it would begin the moment where I would be like. Oh, fuck. He's

0:20:04 Thomas: Oh, no. Start the grieving process.

0:20:16 Tom: Okay. That's what I mean by the credibility though, right? Like maybe he's built this, like like underground credibility,

0:20:18 Eli: Yeah. Every time he was right. And every time I was like, Dad, you don't understand. OK, this is I remember. And he used used to like to tease me about this all the time, I was arguing with him about my high school girlfriend and I was saying that he needed to respect my relationship, like really think about what it took for my father not to hit me with his car after I said those words out loud to him, and the example I gave is the way I respect you and mom's relationship.

0:20:42 Tom: Same

0:20:50 Eli: Yeah, Exactly, Because I just didn't have the brain wrinkles. You, he stuck to his guns like, like, the hero he was. And it didn't matter if I listened.

0:20:49 Thomas: Yeah, that's right. Oh

0:20:49 Tom: Thing, same things. Uh, yeah, right. Right. And it had no impact on you.

0:21:00 Eli: None.

0:21:00 Tom: It didn't, it didn't work at all, but you the kind of kid that would go to your dad and ask your dad for advice, or was the advice given to you completely unsolicited, because that's kind of the difference, You

0:21:00 Eli: Zero. Right, that's why I asked. Oh, no, I totally went to my dad and asked him for advice. All the time.

0:21:11 Thomas: Wow.

0:21:11 Tom: Did ask him for advice and

0:21:12 Thomas: Yeah. That's interesting.

0:21:12 Eli: Yeah, he was my best buddy.

0:21:13 Tom: He gave you the advice and and you and you were just like, no, I don't, I don't want advice. That's not what I wanted to hear.

0:21:16 Eli: Yeah, I was not ready to hear it because I didn't have the brain wrinkles. And 90% of the time, this person was doing sex things with me. And I don't know if you know this, a person you're doing sex thing with is the ultimate argument.

0:21:26 Tom: Yeah.

0:21:27 Thomas: Yeah, so so why would you ask for advice? The advice is they're doing sex things with you. So what, you knew, I don't get it. No, here's why I've never been in this situation. Situation, I this guy with me, this is my internal monologue all the time already, so I am like, no, this person sucks, no, this, so I am already doing that to myself, so I have never been in a relationship at all, I have been in like two fucking relationships ever, because of that, like, I don't get to the phase where I am in a bad relationship because I'm already talking myself out of it. Yeah.

0:21:34 Tom: That's yeah okay I've got this situation where I feel compelled to step in. I feel like I have to step it right. Son. And if I don't, what's going to happen is some amount of time is going to go by and then he's going to be in the same position I was in where it's going to be like, yeah, nobody actually liked that person.

0:22:17 Tom: I knew that person was a piece of shit, you know, or wasn't good for you or whatever for a decade or five years or three years or however long it goes. Goes. And I just like, didn't say anything. I remember feeling like personally, I, I maybe I wouldn't have listened to it, but like, holy shit, it's something else to be like, I lived for 20 years of my life and everybody smiled at this person. And I thought, yeah, you know, and then to find out that everybody cringed when they were around is that's a weird feeling. You know, that's a weird feeling to be, be like, fuck this person, together be like, yeah, of a sudden when I became single, I discovered that I was getting invited to a lot of other stuff, and it was like, yeah, well, we wouldn't want to invite you and your ex because we didn't want to spend time with your ex but like now that it's just you, like, I had like fucking mad social invites popping up just left and right and

0:22:16 Thomas: Yeah yeah

0:22:16 Eli: Right

0:22:43 Thomas: That's extreme yeah oh boy you guys were having orgies this whole time, fuck no we just started the new new orgy thing, we just, why do you already have all the masks and stuff.

0:23:07 Eli: Yep this is this is Why I'm really nice to Anna is I'm just trying to delay when all of her friends get to have that conversation with her. Oh, he fucking hated that guy. Well.

0:23:16 Thomas: Yeah. Age is a big factor though, Tom. So I think that it might be so, kind of forget, but this was your ex. I mean, you were pretty young when it started, right? Yeah. So that is, you know, like I made the joke earlier about like, would you have listened? But think like age is a massive factor. So I do think that like should have fucking fucking stepped in. If they didn't, somebody should have stepped in, but you get to a certain age, it's like, all right, you're You're a grown -ass man. Might express an opinion if it's I don't want to be around this person and I were a mutual friend, but in terms of decision -making in your relationship. I guess I'm validating, yeah, if you think that your person might be in this situation, I don't know. I'm trying to make sure I don't

0:23:33 Tom: 17, yeah yeah yeah that's that's what I mean yeah right yeah

0:24:07 Thomas: Give And this person is a young person that may need to hear it. I think it may be a different story.

0:24:11 Tom: Now I've just left wondering like how blunt to be about it, because like, there's a part of me that wants to be like, all right, sit down, son, I'm, you gonna some shit that's true. Cause like, again, maybe I'm totally off base, but because he does come to me directly for all kinds of advice and he'll say, I need some advice on this. Right.

0:24:14 Thomas: Yeah. Okay.

0:24:26 Tom: So, or like, hey, I don't know what to do in this situation that, do you think, does that give me the ability to say, all right, come in here, we're going to talk. We'll be real here for a minute together, and I don't say this to hurt your feelings, but I got a level with you about, about what I really think and feel, is that an appropriate thing to do, okay

0:24:39 Thomas: Maybe Maybe it's my sensitivity, Tom, but I would be very worried about hurting his feelings. Like, even more so because you're in that position of credibility and authority with your son, like, be careful with because, you know, like, we know this is a bullshit thing, like, he doesn't, he genuinely doesn't know that he, like, thinks this is a serious thing, he, I'm too sensitive, maybe I'm too mushy, but I would be hesitant to go too hard because I just don't want it, I think it'll just make him sad, you know, to

0:25:07 Eli: I'll tell you what happened with me is that I often, I think, and I don't know if this is true, I think I sometimes stuck in relationships longer to prove my parents wrong, right?

0:25:18 Thomas: Prove it yeah oh I was good, yeah, totally backlash

0:25:20 Eli: Knew they were right deep down. And because I was afraid to admit it, it about me proving that I was independent, especially when I was like a young teen slash, you teen, early twenties person, right. It was very much about establishing my appendix, And so maybe, and this is just a thought because I, you know, I am now entirely preaching and not practicing. Maybe rather than saying, hey, here are some things I think you need to know, just saying, I'm worried for you, right? This is what I see you experiencing emotionally. This is what I'm worrying about you experiencing emotionally. Instead, coming from a place of concern for his well -being rather than what he should or should not do in that moment. Let him find out what he should or shouldn't do, but instead to just say, hey, like, I see you feeling. And I hate to see you feeling this way. Want to talk to you about it cause I don't want you to feel that way. Can you talk me through, right? Maybe I'm seeing the wrong things or maybe you're not feeling these things because I care about you.

0:25:34 Thomas: Totally oh

0:26:22 Tom: A part of me right now that feels fucking absolutely asbestos itchy in my soul at the idea of having to like and

0:26:22 Thomas: Hey buddy

0:26:27 Eli: Hey baby, welcome to the club. I just walk in and I'm like, your boyfriend's fat. Let's talk about it let's do it, I don't like it

0:26:33 Tom: Like the idea of like a pro, and I know that you're probably right, but the idea of approaching a inconsequential relationship as if it were consequential makes me fucking fucking die inside. And I know it's consequential to him.

0:26:47 Thomas: Hey, buddy. Yeah.

0:26:48 Tom: I know it.

0:26:46 Eli: Right

0:26:49 Thomas: Well, not only that, you just told me that you got with your ex when you were 17. Now that wasn't a, I know, I know, but what, here's the point. Here's the point I'm making. That wasn't a good relationship, but sure as shit was consequential.

0:26:53 Tom: Yes. And I shouldn't have and somebody should have stopped me.

0:27:02 Thomas: It doesn't, the age doesn't determine if it's consequential, it correlates. But if God, forbid, this does become serious, then it becomes consequential. And so it is consequential for those reasons.

0:27:02 Tom: Well, but well, like one of the lessons I want to like impart and I don't know how to impart it, but it is I feel it's urgent is 17 for me like at17 that relationship was not yet consequential, right? It moved at some point from the inconsequential into the consequential and that morphs over time and is a point where you can sort of intervene where that relationship is not of meaning and consequence yet and you want him to, I want him to see, like, saying like this is not, like, Eli, you're just saying like it's just, it's as important as you and mom. Like, I want to be like hey no it's not like I you got to understand that like this isn't you there's a perspective

0:27:24 Thomas: Yes. Mm -hmm.

0:27:44 Eli: But they can't I've I've

0:27:47 Thomas: It won't work. It just won't. It just doesn't work, man.

0:27:50 Tom: I want them to understand

0:27:50 Eli: Tried Tomifer Challenge

0:27:52 Thomas: Here, I just thought of a strategy that I don't know if you can do, because it sounds like you're really struggling with taking this seriously at all.

0:27:57 Tom: When I know what I want I just don't know how to get it and

0:27:58 Thomas: No, a strategy I thought of is go the other way because

0:28:01 Eli: I to fuck your girlfriend

0:28:03 Thomas: Yeah, no. What if you go the way and this is just the thought, no bad ideas in a brainstorm. But like, what if you go the other way and like, you know, I'm just thinking about what your future will be with this person being your significant other. And think about for the rest of your life, you're going to have to deal with that judgment, that religious judgment that apparently is affecting it so much that it's putting a strain on your relationship. Like that's how much this matters to her and how much this awful religion or whatever words you want to put in are affecting your relationship. You know, like think about how much that's going to affect your whole life, like your friends. Is she going to be judging your friends for not being religious? Is she gonna be judging, you know, like you could almost go the other way and assume like, yeah, you're thinking about this in terms of like marriage and stuff and use that to your advantage. I don't know. Just a thought.

0:28:03 Eli: Oh

0:28:07 Tom: That's

0:28:56 Eli: I, I add on, you say that, but then you're like, this is Uncle Eli. Uncle Eli is going to tell you about group sex and you can't have group sex with this person and I'm going, gonna be like, look, D money, listen, okay, if you've never had a man inside you while you're inside a woman, you haven't lived, okay? And she's not gonna be okay with that all right you

0:29:05 Tom: Oh my god

0:29:17 Thomas: Wait, Eli, you haven't given Tom that talk yet. You're supposed to give him that talk next.

0:29:23 Eli: Know you think you've come, you haven't come, I'm telling you right now, you have, until the man wearing a bird mask whose name you barely know is to the hilt inside you while you're inside someone else, you'd, until you look like that little cartoon of those kids making a caterpillar but naked, you don't understand what orgasms are and I don't want you to lose that, I, because I'm your dad, here's the, here's because I love you

0:29:52 Thomas: Here's the emotional connection moment. Yeah.

0:29:54 Eli: Yes

0:29:53 Tom: Well yeah, I, I was not on board until the, because I'm your dad, that's what's, that's the party, like that's where you sold me that's

0:30:01 Eli: That's where I got see you got to get them at the end one

0:30:02 Tom: Right really yeah that's

0:30:02 Thomas: So, yeah, Tom, pick one of those two strategies. One of those might work.

0:30:05 Eli: Of those options yeah

0:30:06 Tom: Kind of want to be like, all right, look, look how unpleasant this last few weeks has been, this is your life now forever right that's I kind of feel like yeah

0:30:16 Eli: Yeah. Oh,

0:30:15 Thomas: That's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah. Take it seriously. Take it the other way.

0:30:18 Tom: Yeah it's like, you know, like think about it this way, buddy, like you cannot have this be your life forever, that's option one, or you can live this hell unending for the next infinite weeks of your life, those are your two choices, there's only two choices here, there's always, and then, and if she's right and there's a heaven, she'll get the "I told you so" forever. So you don't want that either.

0:30:37 Thomas: But you could be like, you know, people only get more religious as they grow. Too. So like, it's going to get worse or something, you know, is

0:30:43 Tom: Right,

0:30:42 Eli: Tom, I have another shenanigan. I have another shananigan.

0:30:44 Tom: Yeah.

0:30:46 Thomas: It as good as the last one?

0:30:47 Eli: Okay. Because this is very specific, right? Require you to do the work at all. You don't have to invalidate his relationship at all You can be like, you know what, Dee Dizzle, I respect you and I want this to work out. God, the love you guys have. It's like Romeo and Juliet. Don't read that play. Anyways, it's just really important to me to talk to her and her parents about my spiritual beliefs, and you just, you invite them over for a lovely rotisserie chicken dinner and you're just like, hey everybody, here's why your god is dead, they'll end the relationship for you, you and then D-Money is like, dad, you tried, and

0:31:00 Tom: Oh, my God. Oh, we're almost Yeah. Yeah.

0:31:23 Thomas: I thought then you you were going to incorporate Eli's other thing. So you get them at the dinner table and you're like, okay, have you ever had a man deep inside you while you're coming?

0:31:30 Eli: Then yes I'm at that dinner wearing my pajama pants, and I'm like, hey, Mr. Johnson, you ever have a man, like, to the hell inside you, because it's not a pinky, man, it's a very different feeling than just getting her to put a pinky up there, I'm telling you, it's real, it's like a transformative you feel whole you feel whole have you ever seen that children's book, The Missing Piece? That's another man's cock, just so you know, that's what that's about.

0:31:48 Thomas: Combine the approaches yeah, synergy, synergy yeah

0:31:57 Eli: Stop crying, guest

0:31:57 Tom: I we, we are almost there, actually, like, we, we have talked about, like, I was like, look, we would, no way it would be all right if I said, all right, you can go to church, but every time you go to church, she's got to come over and sit with me for an hour, and I'll be the pastor of atheism, right? Because

0:32:16 Thomas: Yeah why don't you start insisting on it yeah, on yeah

0:32:18 Eli: On cog diss, yeah

0:32:20 Tom: A thousand percent guarantee I'll make more progress in my hour than the pastor will in his hour. I am certain of that. And knew without a shadow of a doubt that that would not play right. That that would, not, not at all work. And we are getting very close to calling the parents and being like, all right, these are still kids. They're getting very very close to not being kids. She's 18. He's 18 in like two minutes, but I'm just like, you know what? He's still a fucking kid. He is not autonomous. I still control every meaningful piece of his life. This relationship is over from the outside. Like we're, that close because it's so disrespectful at this point, like continue to like hammer home, like, well, you know, you really should come to church and like, it really should, you Know, be a part of our congregation. You

0:32:24 Thomas: Fucking

0:32:27 Eli: Yeah

0:33:02 Thomas: Church

0:33:02 Tom: Really should join us on Sunday. Like this, constant, like like pressure pressure like

0:33:03 Thomas: I love love this dinner party, no, you got to make this dinner happen Tom, because there's so much even if you're not going to do Eli's approach, you just start talking about priests fucking kids, I know it's not Catholicism or whatever, but like, just, just just nonstop, do, and it, you can even do it in a plausible, you know, just like nonstop the harms of religion, but in a conversational manner, that's like,

0:33:09 Eli: The dinner party thank you two votes you're outvoted Tom yes yeah

0:33:11 Tom: Well yeah did you just read this news story and then I don't

0:33:27 Eli: Yeah

0:33:28 Thomas: Yeah, did you see what happened?

0:33:30 Eli: Hey. I know.

0:33:31 Thomas: What they did to those kids?

0:33:30 Tom: Yeah right yeah right right?

0:33:31 Eli: You guys want him to come by the church, but he's like 400 times more likely to be molested in the church than he is in the woods, so, um, no, bring her to an atheist convention, be like, "Look, I've been trying to get you to come to atheist conventions forever, and just when a con comes around this year, just be like it's really important to our family that Jesanthopus Chrysanthemum come with us to" the atheist convention, d money can wander around, look at the malls or whatever, and we'll just bring her table to table, breaking her spirit, and then she'll shave the side of her head, she's an atheist, we like her again, everybody wins, I'm a giver is what I'm saying, I'm coming up with solutions

0:33:43 Tom: Yeah.

0:33:44 Thomas: Yeah.

0:33:57 Tom: I think it's a, I think that's a reasonable plan.

0:34:14 Eli: Yeah.

0:34:13 Thomas: Can you record this dinner party? Can we get an episode out of this? That's all I want to know.

0:34:18 Thomas: I'd be like, hey, at the church, do you have like an alarm system for pedophiles or how do you, what's your guys' like approach?

0:34:23 Tom: God. We. Well,

0:34:18 Eli: It's How Does Pastor molest someone tomorrow, what's the chain of command? Is it him talking to his buddy God, it is okay? Cool, well, you can understand my concerns then. No?

0:34:28 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah, this

0:34:32 Tom: You know, it's funny, cause like I talked to the dad a while back, he, this is was maybe a few years back, but him over and like we were having some drinks and he was

0:34:38 Thomas: Is a serious thing geez, that's a long term relate wow

0:34:41 Tom: Been together for a few years, yeah they've seen each other, they've known the family for before they were together, so they were like yeah, so we've known them for that, but they were, and he wasn't talking to me about you or whatever, and I was like, wait a minute, because I was shocked that he was religious, I don't have any religious friends or family so

0:34:42 Thomas: Yeah oh gotcha yeah

0:34:56 Eli: It's crazy when you meet one in the wild, it's fucking buck wild you

0:34:57 Thomas: Yeah yeah

0:34:58 Tom: Man I feel like a fucking insane person, I literally don't have any religious people, friends or families in my life. And all of a sudden there's this person in my kitchen and they're the only one and they're religious. And he's like telling me this stuff. And I was like, wait a minute, do you really think like I'm going to go to hell? And he's like, I'm not really sure. And I'm like, don't you think it's weird that you're willing to have like old fashions with me? If like should be thrown into a pit of fire and misery and deprivation for all of time, that that's a reasonable thing, but you're also like cool having drinks with me but but

0:35:30 Thomas: I the equivocating they do well, I don't know, you know, I'm just not, I think you know

0:35:34 Eli: Know you know I'm not here to judge, it's just, I think that the the best person in the universe, the best possible force for good, probably might do that to you, but I I won't personally fix

0:35:35 Thomas: Yeah

0:35:44 Tom: I would yeah and I remember thinking like I could make progress with him, I could push, like I remember thinking, if I had a few hours, I I could move him, I'm

0:35:54 Thomas: If got deep in him to the hilt, I could

0:35:57 Eli: Him, if I I was gonna offer, if you want that dad to fuck me, I'm willing to do that, if that, because I'll tell you, nothing wakes you up like gay sex, that just ran away, I got a couple senators who I can tell you right away, they they knew exactly where their bread butt was, butter, and it was about five and a half inches inside their butt, 40 minutes and 13 seconds for until I ruined this podcast, in case anyone was wondering this

0:36:00 Tom: Oh

0:36:09 Thomas: Yeah uh no and this one actually worked, I like it worked, it made it better

0:36:25 Tom: This one is much

0:36:24 Eli: One was earlier I feel like I did it earlier yeah, it's a new record, it's tough, it's it's fucking, because what's crazy, you have such an incredible relationship with your kids, right, like such a level of trust and and authority that that I think very much is similar to what I had with my dad, um, jokes aside, like I don't want you, I don't want anything to damage that, especially just like a brain without wrinkles, right? And I'm not gonna lie and say that like, oh, my me and my dad's relationship was damaged by how blunt he was about the relationships I was in, I I didn't like it, and I didn't listen, and sometimes I definitely stayed in relationships longer than and I should have to, like, quote-unquote, prove him wrong, but I know if he had been gentler, if he had be able to lead me there through how he's concerned about me, I think I might have been a lot more open.

0:36:26 Tom: Better yeah right

0:36:26 Thomas: Yeah well

0:36:47 Tom: No

0:37:15 Thomas: Me put it this way, Tom, you're, you're not the kind of person who would shit on someone's favorite thing, you're not the, oh, sports ball dude earn the Super Bowl why is it different with this, why is the difference, this is literally like probably the one of the most important things in your son's life, what you applied that in any other situation where I come to you, Tom, and I'm like, my favorite thing is Sharks hockey, and I tell you a meaningful story about my life where it's like, I love it, it's my favorite things, you're not going to say like, well, that's not important, that's fucking stupid, you never would

0:37:21 Tom: Right right right oh you know, of course not, yeah, but I have a good, because I don't want him to have a serious relationship at this age, I I think it's it's

0:37:48 Thomas: You're trying to break me and the Sharks up, I don't know, they're pretty bad this season can you try, can you, so could you try to break us up if you maybe you know, like they're the worst team in the league this year, so like if you could do anything no you couldn't yeah forgot

0:37:52 Tom: Yeah, I I don't think I could. I THINK I COULD THOUGH. I STILL THINK THAT'S SWIMMING UPSTREAM. YEAH. No, I think it's inappropriate, like developmentally, for him to have a relationship. He puts this many eggs in at this age, right? Of he's a senior. And so part of the problem is this, right, a senior. And so for most kids at at this age, what happens is everybody kind of your friend group, your boyfriends, girlfriends at your end of your senior year, most of these kids kind of disperse and that dispersal naturally breaks them up. And it sort of naturally puts a, like a time limit on a lot of those relationships because they go away to college. They do, you know, everybody kindof goes their own separate ways. The problem here is that Donovan is going to stay home and go to a local college and she, she is going to stay home and go to a different local college. Neither one of them are going off to college. So there's essentially no difference right now. They both go to two different high schools.

0:38:44 Thomas: About that, oh yeah

0:38:52 Eli: Maybe if he took the fucking SATs. Could have solved this problem for yourself if someone had a little bit of ambition, Mr. College -does -it -matter.

0:38:59 Thomas: Oh boy. Shit.

0:39:01 Eli: Maybe if you weren't so precious about your statistics and your numbers he'd be headed off to Yale to fuck a girl with a nose ring right now. That's

0:39:01 Tom: He is. He is not. There's right. Yeah. But there's So there's a continuity to the trajectory of their relationship, which is not developmentally appropriate, right? Will say, having lived that experience of having a relationship when I was 17, that I put too much faith, too much stock, too Much importance, thought of it as a big deal. It wasn't. It shouldn't have been. I lost experiences that I should have had. I didn't have perspective I should have had, and I stayed in a relationship for 20 years.

0:39:16 Thomas: Yeah. I didn't, I didn't know that I mean, have you told him that? Have you told him about your experience? Yeah.

0:39:40 Eli: What I was gonna suggest-

0:39:40 Tom: I'm, I'm probably going to have to, even though like

0:39:42 Thomas: I think you should do that. I think that's

0:39:43 Tom: No, part of me wants to do that.

0:39:45 Thomas: The most, most credible thing-

0:39:46 Eli: But Let me put this twist on it. Bring in Finn and you're like, "Finn, sit down. Amen, sit down, Donovan. I regret Finn's existence so much. Really, look, look at his fucking face, Donovan, look at it." Because I can't, I can't, I feel sick just trying, and you could be in that same

0:39:46 Thomas: Oh.

0:40:02 Tom: Jesus. Christ. Jesus Christ. That is not Fin, if you're listening to this, no, no, No. That's

0:40:09 Eli: Position. If Finn is listening to this, he already knows. That's true, Tom, he already knows it was on episode one. You and him are rolling around fighting in the front yard right now if he's listening to all right?

0:40:13 Tom: I do not regret Fin.

0:40:13 Thomas: God. Yeah.

0:40:21 Tom: He's winning. Yeah.

0:40:29 Eli: I'm having my own conflict with my son, uh, week both he and I pooped in our pants, I guess you could say it runs in our jeans. Yeah.

0:40:38 Tom: I've

0:40:41 Thomas: Is that, that's literally true, I don't know if he's doing a joke right now. Shit. I

0:40:43 Eli: It's true, you know, it's fair hard to tell reality and humor mix combined. Yeah.

0:40:47 Thomas: Might

0:40:54 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.