DOD67: Emotionally Volatile Children

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's not sure exactly where Eli is going to take us today. I'm Tom Curry. I am joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:39 Eli: -choo, everyone hop on the story train.

0:00:43 Tom: All we know about this, this is that Eli has a very funny story. That is the jumping off point primarily that Thomas and I got when we were chatting about what we're going to to do, but I think if Eli's got a story that he qualifies as very funny, I'm, I'm down. I'm in, so

0:01:00 Eli: Yeah.

0:01:00 Thomas: Was it Eli, was it that time that, um, I launched my new podcast, was it, oh, that was so funny, we should, that was just totally organic that I brought that up right now.

0:01:11 Eli: What's, what's the new podcast called, Thomas?

0:01:12 Tom: A new podcast you say what is a new, what what that

0:01:15 Thomas: No, it wasn't that story okay, it wasn't that story. Oh, well, okay, well, since we're on it, you know, no, I launched Where There's Woke, please go check it out, it's amazing. Eli is on the bonus content about elevator gate Tom could have been on it, except if I mentioned it to him, he'd be like, "What's the, elevators don't have gates, who's a Dockins, what's what's a Dockins who's

0:01:33 Eli: Oh, bonus content, we should like do a pop quiz about various in-house internet dramas and have him try to guess what they are, like, okay, Tom, for 10 points, what was Gamergate?

0:01:38 Thomas: Oh, for Tom. Yes. Yes, yeah.

0:01:51 Tom: Is a gate in the game, uh, world of Warcraft that people were fighting about getting into, and then one of them did. I don't know, I don't know I know peripherally what, what GamerGate was. I think I couldn't describe it.

0:01:55 Eli: Minecraft nailed it yep doesn't even know what purple and green mean

0:02:06 Thomas: Yeah, Gamergate had enough mainstream reach that somehow Tom absorbed some of it, but if we give him some of the other in Atheist podcast drama or whatever, like, it's gonna be great. No, thank you so much for letting me me mention it and let's get to your amazing story though, I can't wait to hear what it is.

0:02:10 Eli: Heard about it yeah all

0:02:16 Tom: It's, yeah.

0:02:20 Eli: Right, well before we do that, Thomas, we should probably apologize for the only thing worse than Gamergate, and that of course is the auto ads. Yes, if you feel like you're being harassed out of the podcast space by the constant targeted white supremacy that is our auto ads, I don't know. I look, I know they said we could say whatever we want before and after. I think targeted white supremacy might be too far for them, but we're gonna find out by, um, based on whether there are any auto ads in the next couple of weeks. Uh, but yes, if you hate those auto ads as much as you hate, uh, the harassment of women out of the gaming space, then head on over to patreon.com/dearolddads. You'll get an ad-free version of every single episode, as well as a bonus story after almost every episode. We tell stories about our kids, stories about our wives, fun japes. Last week Tom told us a story that I can only describe as harrowing, that lives with me every five minutes of my life, so yeah.

0:02:41 Thomas: Yeah.

0:03:22 Thomas: Tom was Like, oh, I loved when, you know, it was really great when I told that story of how I almost died. Let me give you a fire hose of that. You got, you guys, I, we should have waited to sell the movie rights to whatever Tom just told us, but you get it all in the bonus if you are a patron. Uh, just as the extended version, I

0:03:24 Eli: Yeah.

0:03:44 Tom: Are going to have to do an episode, guys, of stories when we almost died. I presume we all have them.

0:03:50 Thomas: Only have the one I already shared. I remember when we were talking about that, you guys were like, oh yeah, I could do those all day, and I was like, I just, I just have that one. I think I only, I think only just almost almost died the once. So, but I would love to hear your guys's

0:04:00 Eli: Feel

0:03:58 Tom: But we have not scratched the surface

0:04:02 Thomas: Yeah

0:04:04 Eli: Like My almost died stories are less fun than your guys'.

0:04:04 Thomas: Yeah

0:04:08 Tom: I, I, I feel like of all the multiverses, this is the only one I've survived in. Actually, actually so I don't

0:04:13 Eli: Yeah no for sure, yeah, you're the Miles Morales of this particular podcast. Diverse, um,

0:04:17 Thomas: Yeah

0:04:20 Tom: Know what that is. Did see a Spider-Man movie the other day with my kid. I forgot which one and what it was about I whichever one you can stream for 4.99 on it was an animated movie.

0:04:20 Thomas: An Elevatorgate reference, no

0:04:27 Eli: You see the Into the Spider -Verse, the new one was it yeah

0:04:34 Tom: My little guy wanted to watch it.

0:04:34 Thomas: Be yeah okay that's probably the first one, the first in the Spider

0:04:36 Tom: Yeah

0:04:36 Eli: Was it the first one is so good, it's

0:04:39 Thomas: Yeah it's really good.

0:04:39 Tom: I thought it was pretty good, yeah, I was surprised.

0:04:39 Thomas: Oh

0:04:41 Eli: Great yeah the new one, the sequel, is now in theaters, yeah.

0:04:41 Tom: Yeah oh

0:04:45 Thomas: I want to take the kids, can't wait.

0:04:46 Tom: Let's see, I know that because my little guy's saw it already with his mom and he's just like non-stop Spider-Man talking, which is a terrific relief from his non-stop Sonic talking. It really is actually like

0:04:49 Eli: Uh right

0:04:52 Thomas: Oh never gonna let Ele get to his story because, um, saw Venom on, like, the you know, they'll see the shit in the menu, like the Disney menu, and we'll be like, well that's, yeah, that's Venom, that's kind of a scary one, but it's too terry, I don't, as our forever vernacular is, I don't know, that's pretty terry, I don't know if you should watch that, and he's like, no, I want to watch it, and then so I was like, all right, I showed him the two Venom movies and he was just obsessed, and he would just be like, so in the car driving home from school, he's in the back, not talking to him at all, apropos of nothing, he goes, okay, so Venom, and he just stuck his head into a thing, so funny.

0:05:04 Eli: Of course okay oh I love it. I, see, I wouldn't be worried about the violence in Venom and Venom too, I'd be worried about the low quality filmmaking, I'd feel like, okay, kid, kid, that's called the flash pan, and that's from lazy fucking editing and I'm not daddy's

0:05:32 Thomas: Yeah exactly, yeah all right close your eyes, this is this is one dimensional character, oh, close your eyes, don't watch this, it's

0:05:48 Eli: Going to cover your ears during this dialogue, okay kiddo, oh god, there are so much better ways to explain what a symbiote is, oh I feel sick, daddy feels sick.

0:05:53 Tom: Okay

0:05:56 Thomas: Oh no, are they gonna fridge Somebody? No, this trope, oh, you okay, these are called tropes, son, it's okay, they're not real, you long

0:06:00 Eli: They're setting up the Morbius movie, can we please, like, switch over to hardcore porn or something, huh, we're gonna cleanse this yeah we're going to watch some nice safic porn after this, so you really get a better idea of the filmmaking. Filmmaking, yeah, I loved Spider, I, I was around Finn's, what, eight now? Amen yeah okay, I got their names I was like, fuck man, I have fucked up your kids', ancient okay, I just got the ages wrong. Oh, god but that's that's so Eight was the year that my dad convinced my mom to finally let me start reading comic books, and oh man, like, formative fun, going down to that, because this, when my dad still owned a bookstore, uh, and so he would, he would order the

0:06:07 Tom: We're gonna have to watch porn that definitely passes the Bechdel test though. Like we're not uh Finn is 16, um, yeah, Finn is 16, but Amen is uh nine. Amen is nine. Yep. No yeah Amen is, Amen just turned nine recently, so yeah, and he is fucking into it, man, that's

0:06:29 Thomas: Is the show been going. Jesus. Jesus, oh,

0:06:54 Tom: Awesome

0:06:54 Eli: New books every week, and there would be a, there would be two sealed in plastic issues of Spider-Man and Wolverine and X-Men and then later some other ones when I got into other ones, but they would be two issues of each, because one to save and one to read, and that, that day, comic book day, when I would go down to the bookstore and dad would always have it on his desk, he'd be in there, and I would just sit, like, literally next, my dad's office, because he was a good boss, was just in the center of the nightmare.

So they just stacked my poor father's... No laptops existed. Laptops were invented in 1987, the year I was born. So he had this giant hulky desktop computer, PC, that was on a box of books, in amongst the other box of the other, other parts of the store, and so what I would do is I would sort of like crouch next to his chair, because it was the only place to be guaranteed not to be stepped on. I'd like cuddle up to him while he would do like orders and stuff, and read those comics, man, and, oh man, the back of the store, my father, may he be well wherever, he's not, uh, out on the roof, on the back the store he was like, doesn't matter, what roof we have on the bank of the store, so they had this like tin, I don't know, snare

0:07:38 Thomas: Wow, okay,

0:08:14 Eli: Drum, it was made out of snare drum, so when it, when it rained in the store, you were like, oh, the lovely pitter patter here at this bookshop, up, and in the back of the store it was like bang bang bang, like the Germans were fucking invaded, but I remember just sitting there, the rain, like, coming down, and reading comic books for hours and hours while dad worked, it was such a delight, such a, such a delay, and exactly that age, so, uh, yeah, if you're looking to set Amen on the path to Eli, um, I can't imagine you're not, uh, uh, start him on comics now,

0:08:14 Tom: No you know

0:08:48 Eli: Tom.

0:08:48 Tom: As you're saying that, though, like, I will say, like, Amen has, had he is not reading yet, so he's nine, but he's, he's got some delays, and and his reading is extremely rudimentary right now, so I was actually just thinking maybe I'll order him some Spider-Man comic books, and maybe that'll encourage him, are they appropriate for a nine -year -old?

0:09:05 Eli: Yes. Uh, Spider-Man are, and actually, uh, the app, if he wants to read on the app. Uh. You get all the comics for free. I think it's a little bit overwhelming. But, um. The app gets all the comments for free but the really cool thing is Marvel has a reader's guide on their website for like grade level and stuff like that. So, if you know what level he's reading at, they actually have comic recommendations you can can filter by and then you can just be like, "Great, I'm buying these issues," I know because I, I think I've told this before, but my dad did comic book club, um, his delayed readers, uh, he was a teacher, yeah, and so I don't know who told him about it, but someone told him about it, and so he eventually took his comic collection and grouped it, that's why I've been reorganizing it for years now, he grouped it according to reader group, so I don't have it according to like Wolverine, Spider, Spider-Man, I have it according to like first through third grade, third through fifth, sixth through eighth.

0:09:36 Tom: Yeah.

0:09:53 Thomas: I'm having a realization here, and this is, again, someday we'll get to Eli's story, maybe, maybe we will, I don't know, I have a realization, I never had any experience with comic books whatsoever, like, at all as a kid, because that would be a thing that, like your parents would have to buy for you, so that's, yeah, that'd be an object, I Am realizing, I met, I'm at a fucking cross talk about multiverse, I'm about, there's a big branch, like I'm at the, there's going to be a huge branch. I'm realizing that if I bought my fucking son a single comic book, that will be the rest of his life, right? I'm just really like, I know him, I know what he's into, I know that if one, me, timeline A Thomas goes and buys a comic book for Arlo, that's it, he's comic books for the rest of his life, I'm virtually certain. If I don't do that, I know, I don't know what he'll do, but anyway, that's the, the point, like, I have this

0:10:02 Tom: No, neither did I.

0:10:09 Eli: Right, that would be a nice gift for you.

0:10:41 Eli: Get

0:10:41 Thomas: I should I do that I'm

0:10:41 Eli: Down that path. Yeah, kick him down that tunnel.

0:10:43 Tom: Yeah, man, you should do it. Yep.

0:10:44 Eli: This comic book tunnel is fine, right? All the tunnels we're worried about, none of them start with comic book.

0:10:50 Thomas: Not. No, I'm not worried about It's more like, maybe he'll get into like, you know, a real book or something. Anyway. I

0:10:56 Tom: Yeah.

0:10:57 Eli: No, you can't promise that.

0:10:58 Tom: Wait,

0:10:58 Thomas: Just, I just lost our entire audience, sorry, I'll cut that out, but I can get him ones that, like, the, doesn't matter if he completely rips to shreds, they're not, they're like, okay.

0:11:06 Eli: No, They're, they're weekly deliveries, you can get them delivered to your house now, and they just, they can, they can, yeah, no, they'll do delivery to your house, you can subscribe, yeah.

0:11:10 Thomas: Cool, I

0:11:11 Tom: What? What? Okay, You got to send me a link or something for this because I'm going to get my little guy, because maybe this would be a gateway into reading, that, not explored yet. I'm trying like crazy to get him to have more of an interest. And the tough thing about the app is he can't read to navigate through the app.

0:11:32 Tom: So it's amazing how much stuff just requires a rudimentary amount of reading. It's just like you take it for granted because it's this unconscious process for us.

0:11:30 Eli: To Navigate the app, yeah, is Yeah.

0:11:44 Tom: So, and it's, it's not for him.

0:11:43 Thomas: Get to decide what timeline we're in right now, isn't that crazy, that's so cool, I'm telling you, he's, if I, I buy him a single fucking, I'm telling you, that'll be the rest of his life, I just, I know his interests, like, he will go nuts, we should, okay, after this, let's go, let'S figure out the fucking comic book of the month club, whatever the hell, nice, let' s do it, this episode brought to you by Marvel comic, What a natural tie-in, check out the New Spider-Man movie. No, okay, story time, Eli, go, let's do it, we'll let you in. Oh.

0:11:45 Eli: Store

0:11:55 Tom: Let's do it together, Thomas. Let's go. Let's, let's do this. Let's get to it together. Let's let's get it. All right. Right. Yeah, for real. I'm going to do, I'm going to sign him up immediately. Like I absolutely, I am going to have fucking comic books sent to his goddamn house. Spider -Man. God.

0:12:10 Eli: Okay. Yes, fantastic, all right, so this is not about my child, this is is about my buddy's child, and I mentioned this on a previous episode, uh, you had mentioned, you know, Phoebe's sensitivity and she, uh, she feels things really hard, and my buddy Uh, my buddy also has a daughter who feels things really hard, she's uh, she's just about Max's age, and uh, like I said, uh, last time she was at my house she was melting down about the fact that it was not Halloween.

0:12:32 Thomas: Yeah. Yep, uh.

0:12:47 Eli: Um, but there's a new story and it's the greatest, so they're coming over, we're excited to see them. They're, they're lovely. And again, despite her sensitivity, she is super sweet with Max. There are kids who sort of get, I don't want to say freaked out by Max, but there are kids that are like, "Hey, why is Max facing the corner and playing with a puzzle instead of me?" And I have to be like, "Well, here's the thing about vaccines, you know?" So it's, it's nice that there are kids who Don't ask those questions.

Um, and so they're coming over, and he was, he texted me, he's like, "Hey, real quick, if I'm gonna call her Jujube, uh, Jujub jumps out at you at any moment, you have to really pretend to be scared," and I was like, "What?" And he was like, "No, I mean, really pretend to be scared," and I was like, "Okay, I'll do my best," I do not communicate this to Anna, right, ain't fool that I am, so Jujubee is playing in the house, so Juujubee's like, "Can I have a blueberry?" And Anna's like, "Of course," because whenever kids come over we have a "you can have all the food in our house" rule, and we confirm with parents beforehand like allergies, food limitations, etc, but they're, I, I don't, did you have that growing up where you'd go to a friend's house, you'd be like, "Can I have an apple?" And they'd be like, "It's not dinner time," and you'd, me, like, what?

0:13:13 Thomas: Oh.

0:13:13 Tom: Okay.

0:14:05 Thomas: No, no.

0:14:06 Eli: What?

0:14:07 Thomas: I was the house that just didn't have fucking any food at all, and then we go, yeah, I'd go to other houses and was like, "What my god, what are you," you'd open the fucking pantry and you're like, "There's, they should have sent a poet, there's no way that" anyone could have this much, is this for display, no, you "You can eat whatever the fuck you want." No, that's not possible, there's no way.

0:14:07 Eli: Oh. God.

0:14:19 Tom: Yeah. Same. Very similar. My dad bought exactly the groceries he needed to make the meals he wanted to eat, so that's like, what, it's, when, so I would go, to I remember going to like my, my friend's house and his mom, oh you're gonna laugh, but like his mom always had like a bunch of just like apples and plums, just fruit, just fruit, and like just people, people have fruit, but dad never had everything we had was canned. So we had canned vegetables and canned fruit, like fruit cocktail, canned peaches, things like that. That's what dad liked. And like, I would go and I'd be like, can I just, can you just eat a piece of fruit? And he'd be like, yeah, if you want fruit, dude, yeah.

0:14:27 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:15:00 Thomas: Fucking

0:15:00 Tom: Get a fucking piece of food.

0:15:00 Thomas: One -upper. Okay, yeah. I forgot. You were a Depression -era kid who was like, an entire orange? An entire orange, sire?

0:15:02 Tom: Yeah. We, we would eat. Would gorge myself at his house, at my buddy's house. I would be like I would eat until like I'd I'd give myself like the shits the next day. Cause I'd eaten so much.

0:15:14 Thomas: It's all this fruit.

0:15:15 Tom: Like I would eat like as whole, like vegetable crisper of fruit.

0:15:16 Thomas: Yeah.

0:15:19 Eli: Tom, this here's the thing though, this ties in perfectly to my childhood, because I, of course, was allowed all the food I wanted around my house. I, but my mom was, I don't want to say almond mom has like an eating disorder smack to it, but my, my mom was like, not candy, you know, she wasn't like chocolate bars and stuff, but like giant gallon size bag of craisins I carried around with me at all times, like some kind of long distance hiker. Absolutely. You know, there was, it was never no to food. It was let's eat this instead. But for whatever reason, I think I just wore the poor woman down. I was allowed berry berry kicks and and I had a friend who was not allowed berry berry kicks.

0:15:53 Tom: Yeah.

0:15:52 Thomas: That's good. Oh, my God. Those berry berry kicks so good that was me, that was me talking about other universes.

0:16:06 Eli: So alternate universe Thomas? So I'll just call him Thomas for the story. He would come over, and I'm not kidding, he would eat the entire time we hung out, and there was like no tea, no shade, no pink light, we were like, "Yeah, man, have as many berry berry cakes as you want." He would eat four bowls of berry berry kicks, but he would eat them with milk and thus get absolutely terrible diarrhea when he went home because

0:16:07 Thomas: Yeah.

0:16:20 Tom: Yes. Yes.

0:16:30 Thomas: Realizing another part of the dynamic that I think is pretty funny now, I of course would never do anything or take anything from any other family just willy-nilly myself, like I wouldn't want to get in trouble. But here's the thing, because I was raised by fucking, I don't know, uh, mom's monkey, essentially. Um, if, if a family said like, oh, yeah, you know what? Yeah, you're right.

0:16:49 Tom: Don't impugn that monkey.

0:16:50 Eli: I was going to say that's not nice to Gilligan. I'm not comfortable with you saying that

0:16:54 Thomas: I'm sorry.

0:16:54 Eli: On the air.

0:16:56 Thomas: Can I have an intervention? Thomas, we don't like what you've been saying about the monkey. Yeah.

0:16:56 Tom: Yes.

0:16:56 Eli: Gilligan had a drinking problem about the monkey

0:17:00 Thomas: Um. If a family was ever like, Oh no, yeah, sure. You can have as many of those berry berry cakes or whatever. And they were relying on like, well, surely like manners would dictate that, you You know, once they gave the, okay, it was like, oh, okay. I'll eat all of the everything. Cause it was, like, you couldn't rely on me to be like, hmm, I would say, uh, uh. Dictates that I should go about a cup and a half of this before. You know? Like, I'd just be like. They said, okay! So, I'll just be, like. I'll, I said, I'm going to eat all, I mean, I don't want to eat it all of it.

0:17:01 Eli: And eat all the entire bowl. Yeah. And alternate universe Thomas was the exact same way.

0:17:27 Tom: Yes.

0:17:31 Thomas: Yeah. But you could marshmallow test me all day with that. Like, if they left me home alone, no permission, there could be a one right that I would never touch in a million years.

0:17:39 Eli: Yeah, They would have, have found your corpse next to the dog. Yeah. Um, yeah. No, so Thomas, Thomas would come over, but then he started getting this terrible diarrhea because he would eat four bowls of cereal.

0:17:41 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:17:44 Tom: Yes.

0:17:50 Thomas: All right, let's not use, nevermind. Let's not, getting too accurate.

0:17:54 Eli: So his parents came over with him once when he came over to play and they were like, "And Thomas, what's the rule?" And he was like, "I'm not allowed to have any Bailey Bailey kicks." So then it became came this weird like opium den of Berry Berry Kicks where Dad would be like, "Hey, let's, let's put the, Thomas is coming over, let's put the Berry Berry Cakes away so that he's not sad about" because he'd be like, "Can I just have a handful?" And I'd be like "Yeah, man, I don't fucking know what's going on.

I'm a child, you're in some kind of afterlife punishment that I have not been introduced to yet." Uh, Anna goes out of the room and Jujubee, she gets this big grin on her face, and I will say Jujube, the extremes of emotion, watching this child be happy, is she feels so fully everything. So I'm whenever this kid is down for shenanigans, I'm like, "Yes, Jujube, what are we doing? Like, are we, we're sniping someone from the window, let's do it, come on." Uh, so she like turns the, the corner, and little kids, she's three, maybe four, I think she's four, jumps out and is like, "Boo." And Anna's like, "Oh, Juju-

0:18:12 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Oh no.

0:19:06 Eli: B loses her fucking I'm talking. Do you remember in Heredity when the girl gets her head knocked off and that amazing actress is like, "Why can't I just..." Yeah, like that, see, that actress could take notes from Juju B. And over the whales of anguish, my buddy turns to me and he's like, "She saw someone jump out and scare someone in a children's show, and now she jumps out and does this." I would say 10 to 12 times a day. And if the person she's jumping out at does not act absolutely terrified with complete commitment, this happens.

0:19:09 Thomas: Oh no, oh yeah.

0:19:13 Tom: Oh, no.

0:19:47 Thomas: Talking about the ultimate acting challenge, you really do. There's nothing, a little kid like that, you can't fucking mail in that performance. You gotta you gotta be full Meisner technique.

0:19:55 Eli: And I was like, "Man, that seems like..." He was like, "I'm literally in hell. I mean, I have, I feel like a Vietnam soldier because at any moment a toddler could jump around the corner."

0:19:58 Tom: Oh,

0:20:08 Thomas: Oh, God, no, It's, it is so, if you don't have this child, there are times where you're like, I'm in that Twilight Zone, you know, where the kid controls the whole town. That's that's so fucking real. Like, like, I guarantee you a parent wrote that, and just because of this very experience where you, like, like, she's policing your, oh my, sorry, should I not derail the story? I could tell a quick, quick Phoebe one. Okay.

0:20:10 Tom: My God.

0:20:17 Eli: Mm-hmm. No, No, by that's the end of it. So perfect timing.

0:20:32 Tom: Oh,

0:20:31 Thomas: God, I know I told you, I think I told your guys this one, but in case I didn't, um, still has this issue. She's gotten, she'S gotten better and we've, we've worked hard on it, but she still has the issue where if she does something funny and I laugh or, or Lydia and we laugh, she is so fucking mad. And not laughing because she fucking trips on a banana peel or what I know. I don't I'm not like that in general at all. Like I just as a person, if somebody falls, no matter how funny, if it's my kid, I'm like, "That is horrible. I'm so sad right now."

But so it's not, I just say that because I know that wasn't my family. I know there are a lot of families, it's like, "Oh, they fell." No, you got to laugh about it when your kid fell and they ate shit and they're crying. Like, it's funny, though. You know, I'm like, no, that's not me. I just need to clarify, this is, she does like a bit, like she actually does a funny thing on purpose and we laugh, she gets mad at us because like, she, if we laugh at all harder than she thinks we should, then she thinks there's something she doesn't understand, and anytime

0:20:32 Eli: Right?

0:20:48 Tom: God, I know this, right?

0:20:56 Eli: Of course, uh,

0:20:57 Tom: Uh,

0:21:32 Eli: Yep.

0:21:32 Thomas: She thinks there's something going on that she doesn't get. I see her little face, she gets so upset, she really, she can't stand it. And so the ultimate example of this I tell is, this is a while ago. God, she was, this is at the old house. And I was, it's one of those many times that it's, but for every parent, I'm sure this is not weird at all. It was one of those times where I was taking a shit and the kid comes in and visits me, you know, and I'm just like, yep, that's five times a day.

0:21:32 Tom: Oh.

0:21:58 Tom: That's great. Yeah.

0:21:59 Thomas: Yeah. Just open door. But yeah, they're three or whatever. Like you can't literally, if I close the door, then they'll have a tantrum.

0:21:57 Eli: Obviously. Open door policy. They'll die

0:22:05 Thomas: And then I have to like get up with my shit ass. So it's better for everybody if there's an open door shitting policy. And so I remember she was just being her, she's constantly doing bits, you know? And so she did some joke. It's too long ago that I don't remember what it was, but it was an intentional bit. She was, she made some joke or she did some action, whatever it was was intentional. And I'm laughing and I thought it was really cute. And there was something about it that was like kind of smart. And so, and I love that. So like, I'm laughing and then, you know, a couple of seconds go by and I'm still, I'm like, God, that was so funny. I'm just like still laughing to myself. And I see her face and she did a good job because we had already, this is a years long process of getting her to like, come on, people will laugh when you do something funny. That's life.

0:22:05 Eli: They'll. Die. Yeah

0:22:49 Tom: Right.

0:22:49 Thomas: Like we can't, we're not going to be the fucking town in the twilight zone and not, no one smirk at all. Do not even crack. It's like, it's like I'm not going live like that. Like you, you just have to realize this is how the world works somewhat. And so I, you know, this particular time she was doing okay. She was trying, it was actually one of those things where you see her working on it. She was like, she was like oh, okay, you met, you know, I did this intentionally. My dad's laughing. That's fine. But I laugh for a few seconds too long and her face changes and she goes, why are you laughing? And I was like you just did, you did a funny joke. Like we, you,

0:22:50 Tom: I love the, I

0:23:25 Thomas: Just did it.

0:23:25 Tom: Love to break in your voice right there, but it was fucking funny.

0:23:28 Thomas: Yeah. No.

0:23:29 Tom: Like, what do you want from me?

0:23:30 Thomas: Yeah. It's like the fucking, the, the celestial dictator, like finally it's like, no, unacceptable. And you're like, what? No, I just following the rules. I swear. And I say, yeah, no, you did something. It was really cute. I was laughing. I thought it was funny. You, you, you, did it on purpose. Remember you said you acknowledge, like she acknowledged. She's Yeah, like. But it was only a little bit funny. It wasn't a lot funny.

0:23:51 Thomas: And, and this is totally serious like this. And I'm like, oh my fucking Jesus Christ.

0:23:38 Eli: Oh, God, of course. Yeah. Right?

0:23:55 Thomas: Eyes. So she had a measured amount of laugh. That was fine. It's that kind of thing where you're just like, it's the kid from twilight zone, man. It really is.

0:23:53 Tom: Yeah. Yeah, Yeah, I've experienced the same thing with both Amon and Aislinn. I think Aisling to a greater degree. And I think part of that is that, like, they just get so overwhelmed with the response, like, it just, like, kids who have like some amount of emotional, like, control issues in general, and like, they just become hyper sensitive to that. And it's like, and then they start, start spinning in their own head, and that they just can't, like, fucking, same thing where it's just like, okay, everybody's got to calm down, everybody, we're having a good time now, we're gonna, we're not having a good time, we're all done having a time, don't have a good time, quiet down, don't even, time we're at the verge, you start to read that body language, you're like, what, you do we get we're the verge, where the verge, she's gonna melt down, he's gonna melt down, we can't, mm-hmm, nope, it's yeah

0:24:31 Eli: Yeah.

0:24:37 Thomas: Yep. Yep, yep.

0:24:40 Eli: They get that devil look in their eye, right? That, like that wild joker grin, and you're like, "Oh. Oh, it's about to suck." It's about.

0:24:45 Tom: Yeah. My my whole relationship with Aislinn is based around just all we do is just mess with each other like and just like these and And we have a great relationship. We have a really fun dynamic. But we just mess with each other. We'll give each other the stink eye from across the room. We just constantly have this. Every time I drop her off, I tell her to have a terrible day. And she's like, no, I'm going to have an amazing day. I'm having a great day. And it's just this whole mess with each other kind of dynamic. But you have to be so careful. So careful to read that room and watch that body language constantly. Because it's like no, no.

0:25:22 Eli: Yeah.

0:25:22 Tom: Now she's in a bad mood. No, we can't do it today. Now we have to being gentle.

0:25:24 Eli: Can't do it today.

0:25:25 Tom: You know, yes,

0:25:25 Eli: Right

0:25:24 Thomas: Oh man. And you don't want to turn into that dad. 'Cause I had, it wasn't my dad. Well, my dad was a different, obviously horrible version of this, but you don't want to turn into the, the, dad that, like, if you had a friend whose dad was always messing with them, and you could tell, like, it was too far, like, they weren't reading the room, you know, and it's just like, you could also tell that it was the same fucking joke every day, and they just, they got to an age, like, if they're old, you know, that's what it was, you could tell the dad was doing something from when they were eight that was probably completely cool, and then they're like 14 and they're just like, oh fucking Jesus,

0:25:26 Eli: Now.

0:25:41 Tom: Yeah. Yeah.

0:25:58 Thomas: Is it still

0:25:58 Tom: But I also think that some people do that shit, I see that like all the time, like with kids and with spouses, where people will just, they'll, they'll push buttons in a way that is like it's a playful way to push your buttons, and it's like, yeah, but I don't like it, and you fucking know that this person doesn't like, and instead, they're just, because then they'll be like, "Hey man, I was just kidding, I was just kidding," like, I never, I want to be clear, like, I, I never do that with A's, and like, I read that kid constantly, and I never push over that boundary where we're not having a good time, where we'll both not enjoying that, like, silliness of that playful moment.

0:26:04 Thomas: Yeah. Uh, I hate it, worst. Yep. Yeah,

0:26:27 Eli: Yeah.

0:26:26 Thomas: For sure yeah I said that 100% confident that was not you, but yeah, I I'm I'm with you, that same, the people like that, I have no there, I can't interact with people like that

0:26:33 Tom: But no, but it's horrible.

0:26:40 Eli: I can't recognize it. I don't even understand it. Right. Like you see that. I don'T know if we've actually talked about this on air or just talked about talking about it. Weird meta commentary. But like the we ate all your Halloween candy prank. Like I that is like saying, like, and sometimes we abandon the kids alone in the house for days at a time. Like, I could not, I don't even begin to understand where the impulse to cause your child genuine suffering comes from

0:26:40 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, my god. Yeah, have

0:26:53 Tom: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, man.

0:27:08 Thomas: We yeah, have we specifically talked about that, because that's not the topic, but if you're gonna bring it up like fucking it, we're gonna have to, that is literally child abuse, literally child abuse.

0:27:09 Eli: Yeah yeah.

0:27:15 Tom: I'll go down that road. Yeah I'll, I used to go to my buddy, Rick's house and we would like babysit his, his siblings were much younger than he was. So we were like like 18 or so. And I would babysit for the family. And then also I would just hang out with Rick while he was babysitting. And he used to take his sister, his little sister, who was maybe like five or something. And He'd pick her up and be like, now I'm going to put you in the microwave. And like, she would start freaking out. And she thought it was hilarious that she was freaking out. She was scared.

0:27:39 Thomas: Jesus Christ. Oh my God. Wow.

0:27:46 Tom: He's like, I'm not really going to to put you in the microwave and that's like what made it funny for him and I'm like, my man, that is not, you are like scaring the shit out of somebody because you think it's funny and like the where people retreat to with this shit is like, man, I was just kidding, I wasn't really gonna microwave you or I wasn't really gonna like abandon you or eat all your Halloween candy or what, I wouldn't really be cruel and like you're you're like traumatizing somebody and then being like, I, I don't know why you don't trust me.

0:27:53 Thomas: What a psycho.

0:28:04 Thomas: Yeah.

0:28:13 Thomas: It's so bad. Yeah.

0:28:18 Tom: And it's like, well, you just, you're teaching me every day not to trust you and that you're unsafe. What do you mean?

0:28:21 Eli: Yeah.

0:28:24 Thomas: God, it's such a messed up thing to do. Literally. That's the, the, the candy thing is child abuse, but I don't fucking care if that sounds hyperbolic. What parents or non -parents or anybody needs to realize is that, yeah, okay. Okay, the Halloween candy, that's not a big deal to you and I. Oh, that is kind of funny that you thought that you lost. To them, that was the biggest fucking deal in their life. That is like doing a prank on Eli. Like Tom and I get together and we are like, let's pretend Eli's wife died. Let's make a whole fake thing that is wild. Oh my God. We will film it and we will film his reaction.

0:28:42 Tom: Yeah.

0:28:55 Tom: Hang on, I'm writing it down.

0:29:00 Thomas: Like it is so evil.

0:28:59 Eli: We'll film it and then we'll show a compilation on

0:29:02 Thomas: It is so fucking evil.

0:29:03 Eli: A late night television show

0:29:04 Thomas: Yeah. God, it is horrible. Horrible,

0:29:04 Eli: I And like, I, I genuinely don't understand the impulse, you know, and it's funny, Tom, as you were talking just now about like the, the people excusing themselves by like, I wasn't really going to do it. You know what it reminded me of is the sort of like studies they've done and conversations they've had with internet trolls, right? I don't know if you've read any of this. Me and Thomas wasted two years of our life on this, um, really did tremendous damage to our mental and physical health. But, like, one of the things that they do when they interview people who do like truly terrible shit online, right. I'm not talking about people who are just like, I didn't like the end of Game of Thrones.

I'm talking about people who, like, maliciously set out to harass people for no reason, like cancer survivors and stuff like that. And when they interview these people, first of all, they're all entirely self -concerned, right? Their first thing is, I stubbed my toe in second grade, right, that is truly the number one thing that all of them have in common.

But the secondary thing, and this is why it rung a bell when you were talking, Tom, is this, I don't really think that, therefore, saying that I did or

0:29:23 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:30:11 Tom: Yeah.

0:30:11 Eli: Acting like I did wasn't bad. And it's just such a fascinating impulse that I don't, yeah, it's, it is completely foreign to me. And it is going to sound hyperbolic, obviously, but like, the most foreign way it is to me is when applying it to my son, who is my favorite person, right?

0:30:18 Thomas: Psychopathic fucking reaction. Oh yeah. Impulse. Yeah, sure.

0:30:20 Tom: Yep. Yep.

0:30:32 Thomas: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah yeah.

0:30:35 Eli: And I think it comes back to the fact that a lot of the parenting stuff we talk about, a lot of the dad stuff we talked about, dad stereotypes, it's like, I think a lot of parents don't like their kids, right? And

0:30:45 Tom: Yeah.

0:30:45 Thomas: I don't think they really care that much. Some of them. I really don't

0:30:48 Eli: And I think That's where a lot of this comes from. A lot of people haven't healthily processed maybe the resentment that having children brought into their lives or the general resentment they have about their lives, period. And so, so, like, these are the socially acceptable outlets for them to like show those things and do those things, right?

0:30:48 Tom: Totally agree. Yeah.

0:31:10 Thomas: God. Yeah I think that's right on.

0:31:12 Eli: Same way as like hitting kids, right, like when you could hit kids, there were lots of people who it was just very clear, like, took out their own issues by hitting kids. And I just, I don't understand the origins of, right. Right. A lot of time, you know, Thomas and I talk quite a bit about like, you know, trying to ignore the golem inside us. Right. So when it comes to like being a bad partner and being lazy and not cleaning and not helping, I fucking get it. Absolutely. Are you kidding?

0:31:13 Tom: Yeah.

0:31:22 Thomas: Yeah Yeah. Yeah, but

0:31:44 Eli: I am. That's a spicy meatball of wanting to be a lazy sack of shit every time. And it does something with the boy and it's my turn. But like the impulse to hit or harm. Yeah I'm just

0:31:56 Tom: Yeah well

0:31:49 Thomas: This yeah yeah It's not even that, like, I have the golem you're talking about, Eli, but it's about that shit, like, oh, we should go out to dinner with those friends, oh yeah, I shouldn't just stay inside all day and do whatever, or it's being a little grouchy on, I if I'm tired, especially, like, oh shit, I'm being grouchy, I'm being a piece of shit, I'm being grouchie. But when it comes to this, I look at these people who do anything like this, I'm like, oh no, you're actually a psychopath fucking murderer inside and you don't know it, like this is so I I this isn't like something that I would love to do to my kids, but I like resist the temptation to like fucking traumatize, no, I would never, I would rather die, I would never pretend that my kids were out of Halloween candy for any serious, anything length of time, and film their- They're heartbroken. That's like, it's like it's literally torturing someone, like it's that important to them. I know there are emotions. That's one something that as a serious point, parents need to realize this.

Like if you want to, try to if you're having trouble with your kids in any way, like if you're issues with anything, one solid step is to remember that, like, this bullshit that we think is like, yeah, it's the fucking, OK, you you trade candy, I get it, that was hers, that was your fucking whatever.

As a parent, it's hard, you know, you can't keep track of all their weird little things and all their, you know, like they split stuff a certain way and you don't know, but you at least have to recognize that that's deadly important to them, like to their little brains, everything

0:32:22 Eli: Yeah

0:32:28 Tom: Yeah Yep, yes.

0:33:18 Thomas: In their little brain is firing in that direction. And so when they have some of these meltdowns and these unpleasant things, it's heartbreaking because it really is to some degree, it isn't identical to, but to some extent, it is like us going through a really serious trauma and having to cry about it. Like it's, it it's it's heartbreaking. Yeah.

0:33:32 Tom: Yep I think there's this like insane urge that people have and and I want to raise my hand and say I can be, I hope I don't act on it, but I can be sometimes like mentally guilty of it in general, where like, if something doesn't seem like it should be important, it's hard for me to, if like it's not important to me, right it can be difficult for me, like, yeah, but that's important to other people, like that matters deeply to other people. And so I think, like, there's maybe an extension of that, like I've watched this with, like, with like all of my, um, family, I guess, I don't know how, so, like, my whole bonus family has like issues with food, like they all have, Haley has, Aislinn, Donovan, they all have issues with food. And so, like, if they have it in their head, for example, that they are going to have sweet potatoes for dinner, and then you go and you check the cabinet and you're out of sweet potatoes, for

0:33:53 Thomas: Yeah exactly, mm-hmm, same huh

0:34:26 Tom: Me, I'd be like, well, I'll just eat something different. Like I literally is like, it, it means nothing. It's like, did you cut your tongue?

0:34:28 Thomas: Yeah time for the berry berry kicks whoo, party

0:34:33 Tom: Right. Like, I don't, I can't even, I can't even fathom caring deeply about that, but I can tell you that that can make or break, break someone's whole day, that can make or break a grown-up's whole day depending on what's important to them, and that, like, what's important to people doesn't need to be rational, it doesn't need to be what's important to you, like part of just, like, being a good fucking person and empathizing with other people and, like, being partnered or being a parent, like it means that you have to say, like, well, look, what's important to my son or my daughter or my partner is genuinely important, it's not like provisionally important, it's not like, fine, I'll pretend it's important, it matters, it is deep, it is significant to him. You have to be like, alright, cool, that now becomes important to me. It is important by extension. It is like, I know we joked on another episode. I took my kid, I took Finn to soccer. I had decided before we went to soccer, I am like, if he is into this, I will fucking love soccer.

0:34:34 Thomas: Right yeah yeah mm hmm yeah yeah yeah wow

0:35:33 Eli: Yeah

0:35:34 Tom: I will learn. I would be the most soccerist, watching this motherfucker that ever existed

0:35:34 Eli: Of course oh

0:35:37 Thomas: That's a lot, coming from you a sport, holy shit, oh wow

0:35:40 Tom: Yeah I would do it, I would do it, I would, a hundred percent do it, yeah, yep it without like like

0:35:43 Eli: Fuck yeah the instant, absolutely

0:35:46 Thomas: Hold on, I want to hold you to that, Eli if, if your son gets into sports, you got to be a sports dad. You got to do it.

0:35:50 Eli: No no, hardcore motherfucker and I'll tell you, because I had exactly that experience this week, I want to let Thomas finish this story, but I had exactly that experienced this week, sorry, Tom, keep going, I don't want to

0:35:55 Tom: That no no that's okay, I just, I just think it's like really something that's like wildly important to remember, I see it extend to all kinds of weird shit too, like gift-giving and I know we've talked around this, but, like, people will say, I've I've heard it said so many times, like, I know that they really want that, but I don't want to buy it because I think it's stupid, have you, like I don't, and it's like, who fucking cares, you're buying the other person a gift, you're not buying you a gift, it's something they want, but, like, we're so quick, I think as a rule, to be dismissive of the things that aren't important to us and to be like like, well, doesn't matter to me, so it shouldn't matter to you

0:36:22 Eli: Yeah yeah yep

0:36:13 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, and it's such a cliche because it really is the kind of thing that just gets passed down and passed down. It really is. If you weren't valued, if your interests weren't valid by your parents, and I'll be honest, I've been sitting here right after I stopped talking, thinking, wait, how did I get like this? Because I came from not only my parents, my dad devaluing anything like that, but also the really important thing. Like there's one category of like, oh, okay. Parents might think their kid's stuff is bullshit and they don't care. But like, you know, if they had, you Know, a serious emotional issue going on there, they would at least be like, Oh, okay, that's important.

I had the, like, no, that's not, nothing is important. Like literally none of my feelings or, or thoughts or anything were important, but I don't somehow, I feel really like just lucky that I feel this way about my kids. I the last, the furthest thing. And it's, that's not even something where it's like, I have a bad first reaction. Like for some reason it's nice. I just like, I know how that would have happened, but I just really value their feelings and their thoughts on everything. Like it's my, it's the most interesting thing to me. Like I couldn't not value it. And I,

0:36:40 Tom: Yeah yeah

0:36:45 Eli: Nothing you, yeah yeah yeah

0:37:41 Thomas: I got really lucky, honestly, But I think a lot of people just pass on that, that trauma. They're just like, it's this weird, God, I bring up the example a lot, but it's like hazing. Like there's like, there's so much of parenting or of any relationship where people are like a grown adults are like, well, I didn't get to do that as a kid. So I'm going to say, you can't, I don't want to get you that thing. Cause then you, then you had it and I didn'T, I DIDN'T have it. So, you know, it'S crazy.

0:37:54 Tom: Yeah

0:37:51 Eli: Right yeah I actually think, Thomas, that the experience is a lot more universal than you would necessarily think, especially among our generation, Tom, I know you're technically the golden generation, but uh like I think for

0:38:09 Thomas: Yeah.

0:38:16 Tom: Wait what wait what what

0:38:17 Eli: Yeah

0:38:17 Thomas: Hey, his generation won the war. Okay. On

0:38:18 Tom: God

0:38:19 Eli: No thank you, thank you for deleting Hitler and everything but but based based on the feedback we get on this show, very, very little, which I see, but, like, the in-person feedback I get, which actually means a tremendous amount to me, um, think a lot of people from our generation have had this realization of, like, man, I do not get where my parents are coming from right, like, I do, my parents did this and I have have moved forward onto it, now I have kids and I do not relate to where, why my parents did those things, you know, I do

0:38:20 Tom: Damn it right

0:38:21 Thomas: The beaches of Normandy, yeah yeah yeah

0:38:55 Eli: Not relate to why my parents, and I, I think one of the reasons I really love that we do this show is that it, it, an outlet for that venting, it provides an outlet for that emotional experience because I do think we are a generation that, with the exception of some great parents out there, largely came out significantly more emotionally mature and kind and giving and loving than our parents did. And especially as dads, that's really tough to grapple with, right? Because when you're a mom, you do sort of get a little bit more leeway as to what being a mom means, right, because the image, like the zeitgeist and culture of a mom is loving and gentle and sweet and kind and homemaker, etc, right, they are laudable things even if they don't necessarily fit your lifestyle, right, but if you have a shitty dad, a lot of culture up until our generation was like, yep, dads be shitty

0:38:55 Thomas: It's great it's really good yeah yeah

0:39:56 Tom: Yeah

0:39:56 Thomas: And can't, and believe I'm gonna do this, but I will give, like, slight credit to boomers, because they probably honestly made huge, a huge strides from where they came from, like, I like, like, honestly, like, imagine dads from that era. Like, so, you know, I think that's just human progress, you know, hopefully.

0:39:56 Tom: Yeah, yeah

0:40:07 Eli: And absolutely yeah no, I, I, you're absolutely right, is that it's a common thing, my dad always told me this story that he was nine and he asked his dad if he loved him, and his dad said, what, are you bored? Yes.

0:40:24 Thomas: Oh, God. Yeah, you said that one. That's a great story. That's like, so I'm one generation behind you. That's right. We've established. I think I'm One Generation Behind You in terms of this. Because that's a, my dad didn't have that exact story because I never would have even thought to ask if my dad loved me. I wouldn't even. So I'm like a generation and a half behind, actually, because that question never would have occurred. But if it did, that would have been a similar type response I got from my dad.

0:40:39 Eli: How are

0:40:52 Tom: Is definitely boomer, born in '47, like, so he's, he's like he's like solidly in that boomer generation, but I'll give him a huge, but

0:40:58 Eli: You the same age as your dad, I don't understand, that doesn't look so

0:41:01 Thomas: Yeah.

0:41:02 Tom: I just like, I know we tease about him, but like, uh, I want to give him, I'm going to give him like, my dad, again, he was a, he was a single parent in the 1980s and he took, he took every opportunity and told us he loved us. Like he never didn't tell us that he loved us. We of all the, like, you and like, you know, quirks that my dad has, there was never a doubt and there is never a doubt that that man loved us. And I think that was wildly different than the way he was raised. And I think he was he was consciously aware of that. I know that he was conscious aware of and he also spanked me all of twice in the entirety of my growing up. And I know that when he was disciplined as a kid and just speaking to the generational improvements like I know when he, he was disciplined, he was discipline in the sort of Southern style of, you know, just where you go out and cut us. Yeah.

0:41:36 Eli: Yeah

0:41:36 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:41:52 Tom: He he literally a go cut a switch. And like he would tell us stories about going out and he'd have to pick. He said, you Know, the hard part was like, you don't want to pick something that had too much give because it has too much like whip to it, you know, and that that hurts different. And, you know, like so he'd like have this whole like thought process on like what he was going to choose to be beaten with. And my dad spanked us twice, and I think he felt terrible about it, and he never, ever did it again.

0:41:49 Eli: Medieval torture yeah yes it's insane if

0:41:56 Thomas: It's insane.

0:42:17 Eli: Thanos descended from the sky and was Like, like, I'm going to cut off your head, or you have to hit your kid with a stick they pick from the backyard.

0:42:20 Thomas: Yeah, 100%. Oh

0:42:28 Eli: I'd be like, vertical or horizontal, my purple guy. What the fuck?

0:42:28 Thomas: My God, not even close. The question would be, I'd try to do the calculation of like, will it be more traumatizing for my kid to see me die in front of them? And I'd be like, yeah, but like Ty, Ty goes to me dying because like, I would rather that than fucking do this to my kid. I'm yeah, totally. That's insane. It's insane!

0:42:42 Eli: They'll be fine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, You know, I think there's something that is really painful for a lot of people listening to this show, but also just like becoming aware is that they deserved to be treated better. You know, like I think that's something I remember one specific listener spoke to me at QED last year, which, by the way, have you bought your tickets yet? Because it's gonna be fucking bad. I bought tickets because we're not doing anything this year and I'm gonna be blackout high the entire time, so if you ever want it, yeah, because I you I I usually have to be some degree of sober, yeah.

0:42:51 Tom: Okay,

0:43:12 Thomas: Oh, I have. Whoa, I don't think I've ever gotten to see you do anything. Wow, all right. Tom, you gotta come. Yeah, I

0:43:24 Tom: All right. Now I want to go, yeah.

0:43:28 Eli: I have tobe some degree it's sober at QED because I haveto make people laugh and entertain them. Not this year, I'm going to be the boy licking the walls, that's who you're looking for.

0:43:36 Thomas: I don't think I'm doing anything either. That's going to be great. Yeah. I'm

0:43:39 Tom: Right, right.

0:43:39 Eli: It's No, they booked a bunch of smart people this year, fucking rules, I just get to, I'm gonna, they had us last year if they wanted that

0:43:42 Tom: Yeah.

0:43:41 Thomas: Yeah. So it's going be you and I going like, yeah, we, we could be up there. We've, you know, we're, we were that too. Yeah. Unless back when I was in high school, I was totally like, I used to.

0:43:52 Eli: Lady's That lady is a Chinese spy. Anyways, no, but I, this guy came up to me at QED and he was talking about how much he liked, um, Old Dads, and the thing that he said that absolutely like radiated with me, he was like, "Yeah, man, like, until I started listening to the show, I didn't realize that like better was the standard I could strive for," instead of just better than him, and I was like, holy fucking shit, see,

0:44:11 Thomas: Oh, wow.

0:44:12 Tom: That's a great line that's that is such an important sentence to keep in mind, and I think in your whole, in your life in general, better is such a good fucking line, that is perfect.

0:44:26 Eli: And you don't come to QED, Tom, so he probably would have said that to you instead, but

0:44:29 Tom: I'll just wait for you to tell me, you know, save the save the eight hour plane ride.

0:44:30 Eli: Instead, you were home, exactly, I just transmit it back. Um, anyways, Jujubee is, my friend is in Nam, at all times, being hunted down.

0:44:40 Thomas: Oh boy. Boy. So do you have any insight into it? Cause like, a tough calculation. Have You, to figure out what do you think you would do? Both of you? Like I'm, cause I'm not going to act scared every time. I'm Not, I don't think that's the healthy thing to do. No, I will, I will do it. Like I'll play along with any game, but like once it gets to the like unhealthy level of, well, okay, this is, this has gone on too far. You can't demand. Yeah.

0:45:02 Eli: Life disruption, right?

0:45:07 Thomas: You you can find, you know, like whatever, all humor you can demand reactions from me, you cannot demand that from just other humans walking around. This is not me judging the person at all, I just want to know, like, what do you have, any concept of like what the approach has been. And I'm a hundred percent sympathetic to the fact that like sometimes just nothing fucking works in this case, and so I'm not, I don't want to be interpreted as like there's some easy answer to this problem, yeah.

0:45:27 Eli: No, no, I honestly, I think my friend is saying and doing the right things, right, because Jujubee, you know, threw herself on the ground and began to, you know, strike herself with thorn whips she had brought with her, and he, you know, he picked her up and he was like, hey, you you know, I understand that you're feeling sad and it's okay that you'RE feeling sad, but you know, they aren't playing the game. And Jujubee was like, I WANNA DIE! And she was, and he was like, yeah, no, that's okay. And like, at a certain point, real,

0:45:38 Thomas: God, barely barely an exaggeration.

0:45:54 Thomas: Hold on. I want to, I want to clarify. Was that a joke or real? Yeah. Because Phoebe, Phoebe does that sometimes. It's like genuinely traumatizing. It'S just like fucking Jesus Christ, man.

0:46:00 Eli: 100% real. Jujubee, I don't know where Jujubee got this language. I think that kids just, yeah, they just put together words and like, you can't keep that good a poker face the first time your kid says, I want to die. So everyone lets the mask slip a little bit or takes it a littlebit too seriously. And your kid, your kid hasn't been to a symposium where it's like, You know, actually, mental health is on the rise. And so your parents are going to be a little more concerned about that language than they should be. So, right. They're not pulling their fucking punches. So They're like, I hate you. I wish you were dead. I wish I was dead. And I hate the dead, the devil take my soul, and like, whatever they can say. If I was like, hey, Jujubee, never say banana grams, I guarantee you the next time he doesn't act surprised, she's gonna be like, oh, sure.

0:46:12 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Yep. God.

0:46:34 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

0:46:53 Thomas: Wow. Oh my God. And let me tell you, I mean, I guess we haven't really talked about this because it's just really hard. It's really hard. And all Phoebe kids do this. They have the phase where they're like, I hate you. You're the worst, whatever. And you know, I don't want you as a parent. And like, that was hard. That was obviously, you know, especially the first time you hear it, you know, from your first baby, that's hard.

If you ever have a kid, and I hope that this isn't every kid, I hope it isn't because it's the, it's fucking hard, man. If you have a kid that pretty early on for no reason starts saying, I hate myself, I want to die, in like a serious way, oh my God, I would take them wanting just saying they want to kill me instead.

Like, just please say, like, you don't want to live with me, that's so much easier to handle than this feeling that, like, I'm sure it's just bullshit, I'm surer, she's just saying words, I'm you know, like, but when they, with Phoebe, the way she said it and how she said, early enough, I could see just, just the intense thing in her eyes, you know, like, that's the thing about kids like this. And I don't know this kid that you're talking about, but with Phoebe, what, what's really challenging is the level of intensity. You can just, you can just see it. You know, there's one thing, kids have the, like, tantrums, they have the meltdowns, they have crying fits. It's not fun. It's, it's hard, but you

0:47:40 Eli: Of course, oh,

0:48:04 Thomas: Can kind of see the level of like intense, you Know, you could just see It in their eyes when it's like, Oh no, this isn't like, this isn'T like, oh man, why is it? This is like, fuck, something serious is going on. You know, like it's God, it's hard. And we're, we're, you know, we've, we're in therapy with Phoebe. We've done a few sessions and think we're saying and doing all the right things. And I'm hoping that just hope this is the same, you know, with, with your friend. I wish this friend all the best because I know, you know, those challenges is full. It's hard, and I think we're doing, saying the right things, and then it's just a matter of like, hope that's enough. Yeah.

0:48:04 Tom: Well,

0:48:14 Eli: Yeah. Yeah.

0:48:38 Tom: I'm going to contradict myself real quick, a little bit, which, which won't strike anyone as unusual, but like, I know earlier I said that, you know, we shouldn't dismiss what's important to kids because we don't think it's important to us. But, you also has to be a recognition in these, like, really hyperbolically emotional moments that while they are real and they're true, the things that the kids are saying are not necessarily true. These are things that are being said because the kids have learned that they generate an effect on the world and an effect on the people around them. So when they say, like, I want to die, that doesn't mean always, and, and it's a tough spot for parents because you have to learn how to hear your kids. It doesn't.

0:49:15 Thomas: You really need to, I just want to make sure, like, you really gotta be attuned because, like, there's a big difference between, a, I wanna die, it's by, it, she'll physically hurt herself, um, she'll like bite herself, she'll do things, she's hurt herself pretty bad sometimes, like, it's, it really depends, I just wanted to be very clear, like, just be be incredibly attuned, tune, because you, as a parent, you can tell there are the ones that are hyperbolic and, that, and approach can be totally different, but this is, this is a pretty serious problem with, and it's, you know, no, yeah, yeah.

0:49:20 Tom: Right. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. And I didn't mean to suggest that it wasn't. So

0:49:47 Thomas: I just want, I know. I Just want to make sure like there, you really got to pay attention to like the, the, you Know, the details of what's going on emotionally. You know, you really gotta be attuned. As you say, Tom, you always say you got to read the room. And I think that's, that's true here as well.

0:49:47 Tom: Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah, right.

0:50:00 Eli: And it's just a, to yes and that, like, I think a lot of parents, um, those moments right when it, when it is serious for your kid, it's really hard not to swing the pendulum too far one direction, right, because the way to self-comfort is to be like, I just a kid, they don't want to die, but then the the other pendulum swing too far is like, I have a suicidal child and it's like

0:50:19 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah. You can't do that either.

0:50:27 Eli: Yeah

0:50:27 Tom: That's that's what I'm trying to say. Yeah yeah you're

0:50:28 Thomas: Totally. No, no, totally. Sorry, Tom.

0:50:29 Eli: That's that's right.

0:50:30 Thomas: I didn't want to stop, what stop you're saying. I apologize for that.

0:50:29 Tom: Yeah yeah no no That that's OK. I think that's exactly what I'm trying to say is like it's it's really you've got to be able to know your kid and understand the emotional moment well enough to know like OK, this is cry for attention and a bid for attention. And they are having a true emotional reaction here. But the words they're using are being tuned in order to get that reaction from me versus really understanding when they need serious help.

0:50:58 Tom: And that's that's tough. That's a tough space to like navigate for parents. But you can't get it wrong in either direction. And that's why it's so tough. You can't fuck it up in either direction or you're going to be you're going to be regretting that, right?

0:50:58 Thomas: Right, and totally true. Yeah, you can't, and

0:51:05 Eli: Either Way, they're gonna blame you in therapy, Tylenol.

0:51:13 Thomas: Know we're, we're not the come for the facts of how to parent, but I think you're, I think your right on. That's consistent with like, you of what we're being told. You don't want, you don't, you're not going to want to go the other way. You're not, you, you want to overreact. But it's, I think what scares me and the reason sorry I jumped on it is because I know with with phoebe it's not for attention um IN CASE THERE'S ANYBODY ELSE GOING through this. Like we're pretty sure she does stuff for attention. Sure. But there's also stuff she, I can tell she's doing from just a real intense hurting that she's experiencing. Um, and it's like more internal, you know, and you can just kind of tell, like, she doesn't want attention.

She actually tells us to go away in those moments. Cause she's kind of going through something herself. And, and this is not to contradict anything you're saying, Tom, it's just that it's, it'S once again, to bolster the point that you, you gotta be attuned to your kids. You gotta pay attention and you gotta get help when you can, like a highly recommend talk to to a professional. If you have any issues that honestly, there's no, no, there'S no harm in talking to a profession. Even if you're like, ah, my kid took a shit in

0:51:17 Eli: I

0:51:22 Tom: What yeah

0:52:05 Thomas: The wrong place. Like, well, you know, it's fine. It's the worst case is someone's like, nah, you're fine. Like, so I would encourage you if you, if you can and being, attuned to those intricacies, I think is very important in trying to get that professional help in the right way.

0:52:10 Tom: Jesus.

0:52:10 Eli: Yeah. Yeah, on that, so many people are hesitant to get their kids professional help because, oh gosh, if I admit that my kid's been going through this and I don't know what to do, I'm a bad parent, or what if my kid gets the crazy label and are they gonna smack my kid with some heavy dose, man.

You know, you picture your kid inpatient in an asylum somewhere with Jack Nicholson, you know, and Joe Pesci, not Joe Pesci, Danny DeVito, and, you know, they're, they're in a straight jacket being like, "All I wanted was was the crayons." But the truth of the matter is, and, like, I say this over and over again, like, the I have been through the most intense inpatient care one can go through, and it was life -savingly wonderful.

My parents intervened for me and for my mental health when I was a kid because I was going through stuff, and it absolutely saved my life. Now I turned out to be a mentally, mentally unwell child slash human. Um, but like, it's also sometimes those professionals are professionals. They'll also just be like, "Ah, no, this is a thing." And here's the ways to get through that.

Um, I know to, to bring it slightly lighter and slightly funnier, when I became a big brother at the organization I used to work at, um, I dealt with kids who had been through like the, the severest level of trauma.

They had been through just the worst, I would argue the worst human experience you can go through, and so they often used hyperbolic language, especially around suicide and murder, um, express emotions like all the time, like we would play video games and it'd be like, "I'm gonna fucking kill myself," and the first, you know, when I was just starting my training and I was sort of big brothering at the same time as someone more experienced than me, I would become terrified because I'd be like, "Oh my gosh, we're getting"

0:54:01 Eli: Like these are the warning, warning signs. And I would go to my boss and I'd be like, okay, I think this is the right way to say this, but this person said this." Then they were like, "Uh, do they lose" at Mario Kart? And I'd Be like, yes. And they'd be, yeah, no, that's, um, they have intense emotions and this is the way they process them. And we're going

0:54:01 Thomas: Yeah yeah but you can't go either you know, like, like you said you can overreact, you can underact. You got to do your best to find that appropriate reaction it's hard

0:54:22 Eli: Do the exact right

0:54:18 Tom: Yeah no pressure parents just get it right, do it perfectly every time, and if you're wrong, your kids die, so but other than that, I don't know why everyone's worried about this.

0:54:23 Eli: Thing. And if you're wrong, yeah, exactly. It's

0:54:32 Tom: This is a simple Simple issue of life or death.

0:54:24 Thomas: Yeah exactly, or heroin yeah yeah Yep. Yep.

0:54:32 Eli: All exactly. All Gentlemen, before we go quick question for you, why can't swedish people run marathons because that would require them to cross the finish line

0:54:52 Tom: Oh,

0:54:53 Thomas: I mean,

0:54:53 Tom: My God. Oh, God.

0:54:59 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.