DOD45: How to Fight

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:27 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's not mad, it's fine, everything's fine. I'm Tom Curry, and I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:35 Eli: Oh, you're just like your mother to say that. You're juuust like your mother.

0:00:45 Thomas: Knows their partner's parents well enough to make a statement like that? That's an interesting thing. And why would you make that statement? That is the old cliche, but I'm thinking about it. I mean, that would be insane. Is that just because you really want to hurt someone's feelings? Like, why would that be a thing you would, yeah, okay, gotcha.

0:00:50 Tom: Yes, that is exactly

0:01:01 Eli: Yeah, yeah, that's that's what I say that hurt someone's feelings.

0:01:02 Tom: Why. It is exactly why. Yup. That is putting the fucking bullet in the gun and grinning while you fire. That's That's exactly what that is. That's

0:01:12 Thomas: I guess guess because my, you has, you Know, pretty good parents, it wouldn't really make any sense. You know, it has to be like, you're just like your mom. You're like, okay. That's fine. Yeah. What's wrong?

0:01:23 Eli: Nice, thanks, I appreciate that.

0:01:24 Tom: You're a nice lady.

0:01:25 Thomas: Yeah. Nothing wrong with that, really.

0:01:27 Eli: That's what Thomas writes on the inside of Valentine's Day cards, you just like you're mother.

0:01:32 Thomas: But you better, yeah. But But you better, like, have had a conversation about how you hate your partner's parent then. Like, if that's, you're just like your, what? I thought you like, you don't like. You better have already had that conversation.

0:01:42 Tom: But now we got two problems. Now, now we have two problems, right? One down because we're circling back. We have two problem.

0:01:45 Thomas: Yeah.

0:01:49 Eli: Did you guys, I know this is about, so this episode is about fighting everybody, you got it. Did Did you guys have any friends whose parents fought, like, fought, fought? It was the fucking worst, especially if you had my parents. I know you guys didn't have my parents, but my dad worshipped the ground my mom walked on, and then my friends' parents would just have these screaming fights, and I'd be like, man, this divorce rate is way too low.

0:02:01 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:02:04 Tom: Oh, no, we very much did not. Eli Bosnick.

0:02:22 Tom: Yeah, you know, it's funny you say that, but I never got into a serious argument or fight fight with my ex. I fought with my ex, so like I actually don't think, yeah, not ever.

0:02:34 Eli: Really? Really?

0:02:36 Thomas: That's interesting.

0:02:36 Tom: Not one time, now. Yeah, it's something I want to talk about in this, as this episode, I'm interested in talking about that.

0:02:40 Thomas: Yeah. I was going to say, because there are some people who are like, that is not healthy. You should be having fights with your partner. But But people say, like, "No, you should scream, drag off yelling, fight." That's how, and I'm like, no, that's not, I wouldn't even call it a fight, I refuse to say that my wife and I have had a quote-unquote fight, that I mean, maybe a couple of times you could characterize something as like that level, it's just like, yeah, you argue a little, you know, argue, have a disagreement, but framing of like, no, it's unhealthy to not have a fight, quote-unquote, I'm uncomfortable with that. That being a thing a lot of people say, you know?

0:02:44 Tom: No, totally. Unhealthy. Yeah. Yeah, it's wildly unhealthy. So that. Yeah.

0:03:19 Eli: Yeah. I think that is just people justifying the fact that they don't know how to fight healthily, so they're like, "No, trust me, after you've been married for 35 years, you'll be throwing things," and you're like, nah, you just, you just don't want to deal with the fact that you can't fight without throwing things. Yeah.

0:03:19 Tom: Yeah. Oh,

0:03:24 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, there will be shit. There will be mainstream shit. Don't know, movies, plays, whatever it is, books, where it's like, yeah, you know, you'll have those thoughts of like, oh, I want to kill my spouse. I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? Haven't you heard that? You'll hear someone say, yeah. That's normal to be like, ah, I don't want to do that. I want a kill that way.

0:03:52 Thomas: And like, no, that's fucking not normal. If that's normal, you're all crazy and I'm not normal, I'll accept that.

0:03:46 Tom: My God. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, because there's there's a huge normalizing of hating your spouse that's going on. And it is horrible. Like know, ah, you know, husbands are the worst, you know? And like, we just put up with them and here's all the shitty things about like having a husband or like, oh yeah, one more day of putting up with his dirty socks or whatever. And you're just like, yeah, I don't know why you're here. Like, why are you where you're at? Like you can leave, like leaving is always a choice you can make. I know I've done it. Like you can just literally pack a duffel bag and say your goodbyes.

0:04:02 Thomas: It's insane. Yeah, just just leave.

0:04:31 Eli: Gerard.

0:04:31 Tom: It's, it's not that big a deal. Well, Well, I mean, it's a big deal, but it's possible.

0:04:36 Eli: I think it's because we're... We're often... We forget how recent good relationships are. Gerard Carmichael has that joke in his stand-up special where he's like, we all need to deal the fact that our grandparents probably didn't love each other. Like, at best, your grandfather was kind of indifferent to your grandmother, and at worst, he hit her. And it's such a... Here's the thing. That's a fucking hard joke to hear, but it's also not an untrue joke.

0:04:52 Thomas: Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah yeah.

0:04:54 Tom: Oh, my God. My grandpa on my mom's side loved his wife so much. And I know this because I barely knew any of my grandparents.

0:05:15 Tom: But know my dad's parents at all. They died before I could really know.

0:05:17 Eli: What did they forget to say thank you

0:05:19 Tom: They were dead.

0:05:19 Eli: For? Do you know? Know,

0:05:20 Tom: I never met them, but my My My on my mom's side lived across the country. They always lived, they never lived anywhere nearby. They lived like in Oregon and Washington, so I never, I saw them a handful of times, but I remember one of the times I did see my grandpa was right before my grandmother was having, she had her leg and half of her hip amputated. She had bone cancer, and uh, my grandpa, grandpa broke down crying because he was, and I remember him being like, "They're gonna cut open my girl," and he was just devastated at the idea that somebody was gonna cut open his girl. And I remember being like, motherfucker, you're like 68 years old or whatever when this happened and you're talking about your girl, and it

0:05:20 Eli: Or is, it. Oh, How?

0:05:23 Thomas: Yikes. Yeah Yeah,

0:06:03 Tom: Was so sweet, and it was like such a loving, frightened, and vulnerable moment. I wish I knew him better. I wish I knew my grandparents better. They seemed like they were really cool people. I didn't know them very well, um, and now they're deceased, so what are you gonna do? So

0:06:16 Eli: The tables have turned because my grandparents on my mother's side fucking hated each other, screamed at each other all the time I

0:06:22 Thomas: I would

0:06:25 Tom: I I do want to return back to the idea of like what, like a fight is. So let's, I think we should like circle back, because I, when I say like my ex and I didn't fight, I guess when I think of a fight, I think of like a conflict where feelings are a little hurt and feelings are, are running high and emotions are running high. It can be handled very healthily or can be handed really, really unhealthily. But that to me is a fight, right? Like when the emotions and the feelings are running high around a conflict that you and your spouse are having, it, to your point, time it doesn't have to me like yelling and screaming, you know, but it's like if my, if I'm like upset and like, or maybe a little angry, and even if I am calmly saying, "Hey, my feelings are hurt," that's a a fight to me. That's a fight. Like, we have a conflict. Feelings are hurt. Emotions are high. Would you agree that that's a flight?

0:07:16 Thomas: Fight would be the moment. I had a way to define it, but maybe not, but there's a mode that when anyone gets into conflict where you go into a little bit of an emotional hurt mode for one reason or another, other. 'Cause you can have, you know, you could have disagreements of like, "No, I thought we turned left here." "No, we turned right here." "Nah, I though we turned left." "No, we turned right."

0:07:40 Tom: Yeah.

0:07:40 Thomas: Oh yeah. Okay. We turned right. That's not a fight.

0:07:41 Tom: There's no emotional juice there.

0:07:42 Thomas: Yeah. Like you're like, even if it's like, nah, I'm pretty sure. Didn't it? What the hell? I thought it said turn right. You know, like that's to me, that's like whatever. That is fucking, you're just, you're talking, you are just whatever. But like, it's that moment where, you might not always, but you might be saying something that's more more about expressing, you the fact that you're hurt by what's going on or by what your partner is either doing or not doing, rather than the content of the thing, perhaps, or like the, you know what I mean? Like there's a little switch there, I think. Probably the same definition.

0:07:42 Tom: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I think Yeah I think we agree that. Yeah Eli

0:08:11 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:08:12 Eli: Think I think it's disagreement plus doubling down. I

0:08:16 Thomas: Disagreement plus like some hurting about it. You know, some stakes. Yeah. Emotional.

0:08:19 Tom: Yeah some emotional reactivity that's like significant. Yeah yeah. Yeah somebody

0:08:21 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:08:24 Eli: Don't know because Anna and I have definitely had had fights that I don't care about, but they've still been fights.

0:08:28 Thomas: Does she care about him, though?

0:08:30 Eli: Sometimes.

0:08:30 Thomas: One person has to care about it, but that's another rule.

0:08:33 Thomas: It only takes one person, I think, to make a fight. Like, because I think not engaging can be part of the fight or part of the thing that's hurting the other person. So, yeah. I think it only takes a one person caring.

0:08:40 Tom: About him. Oh a thousand percent. Yeah Yeah. A thousand percent. Yeah. Circle back,

0:08:45 Eli: Okay, you

0:08:47 Tom: That's the reason my ex and I never fought is we didn't care enough. Like there was not a deep well of emotional like there. So when there would be a conflict, you know, long time I was married to that lady. So like certainly conflicts arose or disagreements arose, but they never, the disagreements never had any emotional depth to them, right? So they, and I thought it was a good thing, like, I, for years I was like, oh, this is, this is great, like this is a, this is all very easy, right? Because when, then what would also happen, and this is pretty personal, but like what would also happen, and I think it's important because it illustrates a bad style of conflict, is during times where I would be hurt and I would want to broach a topic because I did have some emotional reactivity to something, the response would be this immediate, like, and self-flagellation of, of, and it would be just like, I'm a terrible person, and start crying, and

0:08:51 Thomas: There you go. Oh,

0:09:47 Tom: Then that immediately, that immediately kicks me into caretaker mode where I drop what I'm upset about, right, and I begin comforting because and I'm not talking about like I come in guns blazing, like you know, going hot, like, what the fuck, you know, I never do that, like, not never, but like, that's not my style, like, you have to push me to get there, yeah.

0:09:47 Thomas: There's so many tactics. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Mm -hmm. Yep.

0:10:05 Eli: Have to drop a frosty on Tom's lap for him to come for you that hard.

0:10:07 Tom: Okay. One time I don't want to self-characterize the wrong way. I've lost my temper in my life, so I don't want to say I've never lost my temperature, but my go-to is not a confrontation, it's like that but

0:10:13 Thomas: Sure. We we could do just so much on like the tactics people use, you know, to get to, because that is definitely one of them is the like, I

0:10:23 Tom: Yeah.

0:10:23 Eli: Yeah. And that are acceptable because of gender a lot of the time, like, right, there's a lot of gendered BS that is like, well, you know, as a man, sometimes your, your temper takes control, or like, as a lady, sometimes you get overwhelmed and you have to cry. And right. Like, so like, I think there are unhealthy tactics that are used by both genders.

0:10:45 Tom: Yeah.

0:10:46 Eli: Unfairly.

0:10:46 Thomas: Wasn't even bringing gender. I actually think that there's a lot of this stuff that I think there are some that are gender, but I think There's a tremendous number that are not. And it really is just much more about your disposition or your psychology or your trauma that you've had. I think, I think that if I think this is such a wide ranging thing that goes way beyond gender, like there are just so many. I think it's about your parents. It's about what you've seen modeled. It's, you know, and there's Just so many of these tactics that's interesting to talk about. Think this the companion of that one is to go hypercritical the other way. So it's like you're confronted with something or someone's confronted with something. So then they have to go hypocritical toward their partner in defense to kind of like bring the spotlight off of them, them, that's like the opposite version. You know, versus the self -flagellation mode is kind of the same thing but in reverse where you're like hyper going after yourself to to like make that sympathy and change the focus kind of thing. Yeah.

0:11:10 Eli: Mm. Hmm.

0:11:38 Tom: They're Both ways to deflect the conflict away from what the conflict actually is and away from like truly hearing the other person and trying to arrive at a conclusion. Right. The goal, you know, Haley and I've talked about this a lot because we have very different confrontational styles, right, in terms of like, like when we have conflict and we don't have complimentary conflict styles, right? So we've had to have conversations about how we want to have conflict. Like we've had a lot of conversations about the way we have conflict and why we don't like it and how we want to have conflict going forward and how we want to resolve conflict. And then we also have, we've talked a lot about how we WAN to feel when the conflict is over. Um, and, and how W kind of know when conflict is resolved. Involved because

0:11:45 Thomas: Boy.

0:12:27 Thomas: If you guys have a fight about that you're stuck you can't even it's like when the house kid didn't have a speaker they couldn't do anything the rules we don't have any rules because we didn't know shit we don't know how how to fight about the fight damn it

0:12:28 Tom: What Yeah It's What Do We Yeah it was it was a big deal the first time we got in a fight like she was something it was something that like when we were dating she's like well I was like everything's going so great you know I feel so good about this she's like I I do too I just want to see how we fight together because she was worried about like how are we going to handle conflict like what kind kind of person will you be when there's conflict between us? And that's a legitimate thing that I really do think in retrospect, looking back at relationships that I've been in, is something that when you're dating someone, you should try to find that out as a, that's like a litmus test, right? Put that in your fucking list.

0:12:38 Thomas: Uh Yeah The first Guy You See in your Marriage

0:13:16 Tom: It's like going to prison the first time You Find the Biggest One

0:13:17 Thomas: Yeah I Will

0:13:16 Eli: On the first day you want to go up to the biggest person in your relationship and beat him up. Yeah.

0:13:18 Tom: Yeah No but I I would not say that you're ready to to commit to somebody in a marriage until you've had a fight until You're had Conflict And You've resolved That Conflict I

0:13:28 Eli: Yeah. Yeah. I think fighting is a big test and you're both sick at the same time is a big test.

0:13:34 Tom: Don't know then

0:13:36 Thomas: Say Lydia, Lydia can contradict me, she listens to the show. I'm pretty certain we were well married before we had our first with anything you would call a fight. We're just not, I don't know. We're pretty unique people.

0:13:48 Tom: You got lucky, right, and that's good some yeah you get yeah

0:13:49 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, well, but nothing fundamentally changes with us. That's the thing is that there, I dunno, people are, I feel like people, a lot of people are different and I, you know, I, I I'm a weird person, so I have no idea how to judge because like, I just can't be, I can't, I'm not a weirdo. I can be fake. I can't do something. So you're not going to see if we have a fight, it's not going going to be revealed that I secretly hate you. And I've got all this stuff that I've saved up and I changed my demeanor completely. And so therefore a fight would be like a major thing that it was a new, you know what I mean? Like I just can't operate like that. I

0:13:51 Tom: Yeah But you you just said something that that is one of the notes that I have on this is that that is a really toxic part of fighting too is scorekeeping like is a habit or a trend or like a mode that a lot of people will go into when there's conflict all of a sudden what's revealed is that they have been keeping score this whole time and they have this like reach deep into their fucking you know Mary Poppins bag of grievances and they begin pulling pulling out all of these moments where they have these like, well, that one time in November of 1997 when you, and they've got this, like all this shit, that shit, like I tell the boys, like, ever keep score.

0:14:29 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep, yep. Yeah,

0:15:03 Tom: Nobody will win. If you keep score, nobody wins.

0:15:03 Thomas: If Yeah you're in a, in a bad place. This is all too real for other not marriage reasons, but other relationship reasons. It's a sign of not communicating. What it means. If you're silently keeping track of stuff, you're not giving someone the feedback they need to change their behavior, but then you're racking up a tally so that in the end, you can have this huge tome of how shitty this person is, but they never knew the whole time or something, or you think they should have known. It's unhealthy. It's already over if you're doing that, I think.

0:15:06 Tom: Yeah. Yep.

0:15:36 Eli: Yeah. And, think the place that comes from is like, it's not a big deal. I'll put it aside. And then the reason why we tend to score keep is we're like, you know what? I've been pushed too far. I don't want to be told that I, my emotions aren't valid for this one thing. So I'm going to bring up all these other things to validate my emotions in this

0:15:42 Tom: Mm -hmm.

0:15:43 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. Yeah. Yeah, I think that there and I actually think there can be some some healthy version of it. You know, it's like especially if you have a healthy disagreement and you're like, all right, here's the things I'm going to work on or something or like here's what we've you product of this argument was. Because, I mean, it makes sense to be like, yeah, you're going to be keeping an eye on things amongst each other. And, like, Lydia and I do that with certain stuff. We're not scorekeeping, but we're, you like noticing kind of how we're going in certain things. I think there is a healthy version of that.

0:16:28 Tom: I think that's different than noticing trends, right? Like, I think what you're, what you'RE talking about is noticing a trend and like, like, I thing that's important. Like you got to keep your finger on the pulse of the relationship. And that's that's sort of trend spotting more than like scorekeeping. Right. Like scorekeeping be like, well, you know what? Sure. I did this, but you didn't empty the dishwasher last week. And it's like, all right, that's fucking that's horrible.

0:16:49 Tom: And that'S very different than what I think you're you're talking about. Out. Like I'll raise my hand and say, I not conflict averse at all. I don't know if you guys are, but I have a real problem personally. And it's something that I, that I have to like really be conscious of. And then, and then it creates other issues. So I just put myself in the shit chamber. Like when someone's mad at me, I'm mad at them back. That's the first thing that happens. Like if someone's bad at me, it's like, all right, cool. Now I'm also mad at you because

0:16:30 Thomas: Yeah. Mm -hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's already done. No, I'm not.

0:17:18 Thomas: That's tough.

0:17:19 Tom: You're mad at me and I don't think you should be because I don't feel like I've done anything wrong and now we're both mad at each other and Hayley is very much the same way

0:17:19 Thomas: That's rough. That's hard. Yeah. Yeah, that's a hard one. That's a hard one Oh boy, that's a That's got to be a tough thing to work with, yeah.

0:17:30 Eli: Yeah.

0:17:32 Tom: Me, I, I would respond to that by being like, all right, I'm mad, I don't want to be mad, I don't want to have mad energy because I don't want to create mad energy back, so I'll be like, all right, I'm going to be overly calm and robotic and how I, and then that is a nightmare as well, that's exactly the wrong thing to do too, because then you don't feel emotionally invested in the conflict and its resolution. And so, like, I'll raise my hand and say, like, those, those are very much like where my faults lie as somebody trying to like communicate through a conflict, um, in a loving and like hearing and listening way. Those, those are places that, cause it's hard for me to control. Like if I, you're mad at me, I'm mad at you back. And then I'm going to figure out what we're talking about. Like,

0:17:46 Eli: Yeah. That's me

0:18:17 Tom: That's just like, so that's what my body does.

0:18:17 Thomas: That's a tough that's a tough one yeah

0:18:19 Tom: That's what My body does yeah.

0:18:19 Thomas: It's tough yeah

0:18:20 Eli: Yeah I, I'm in a very similar position, and and for, I think, a different reason, or maybe a similar reason, which is that I'm a very angry person. Like, my first, I used to have anger control issues as a, a kid. And still to this day, I'm a very, very angry person. And I've worked very hard to get that under control, and I've done a very good job of it. But that means that I am using those tools that keep me calm when I'm in any emotional situation, which is not a good way to communicate with someone you love, right?

0:18:54 Tom: Right.

0:18:54 Eli: With someone you love, you should be able to sort of open the, the doors and talk about how you're feeling, but if how you are feeling is white hot rage about this paper clip that fell on the floor, you have to use those tools and techniques

0:18:54 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. That's, it's something that like, I have not figured out, but I'm really conscious of, and I try to work on it, and I, if anyone's got an idea on how to get there, like I'm all ears because that's a door that is dangerous for me to feel like, I feel like it's dangerous for you to crack that door, do you know

0:19:22 Eli: Yep. Absolutely.

0:19:16 Thomas: Well on what particular thing you mean, do you mean being like emotionally more present in the argument and not doing a robot thing, is that what you're talking about? Or I just want to make sure I understand that, yeah

0:19:23 Eli: Yeah

0:19:23 Tom: Yeah yeah being emotionally present is difficult, like not even emotionally present, emotionally, um, or effusive, or like, yeah, I feel emotionally invested, but I'm not, I'm not letting that emotion out. Right. I'm holding that back. Yeah,

0:19:42 Thomas: Yes. So I would say, Tom, this could be, you know, and it could be that we are three people who happen to have a similar thing. I say I go into robot mode, but I, I nothing that I really do without having thought of it a lot. You often, not like raw emotional in that moment, you know, it's often that like I've already had the emotions and I've expressed them and I thought of them and dealt with them. And then in, in an argument, it's like, I'm pretty, I don't know if that's a thing that is a flaw that needs to be changed. I really don't. Because it would be weird to tell you, no, you need to, first off, you got to go to Eli's acting classes.

0:20:27 Thomas: You got to figure out how to display the correct emotion of the thing that you should, not only what you're feeling, but what she should want you to be You know, like just I don't know. That's a little bit too much, I think, to expect.

0:20:27 Eli: Right

0:20:27 Tom: No, But I, it's just like we were talking about in other episodes of this show. It's like you should have a style of, I think you should have a kind of style of conflict that centers around how to communicate most, most effectively with your spouse. Right. So for me, I have to find a way to have some emotional, like, availability. That's very like open and obvious, even though I might be feeling that way. If I don't demonstrate it, I'm never going to connect with Haley. For example, that might not be what you need. Like you and Lydia may have, you know, may need different things. But I think to come back to like child centered parenting, I do think it's like when you're in a marriage, it should be like marriage and spousal centered conflict resolution, right? It's not like this is the right way to resolve a conflict. And if you don't like it, then you're not resolving conflict, right.

0:21:29 Tom: Like, this is how I do it. And it's good. Like, it's only good if it yields a result where you come out of the conflict where everybody feels stronger and better bonded to one another. You, like that's good conflict resolution. It's not like, so I'm not, I'm saying like, I would need to change that because it doesn't work in my personal relationship.

0:21:06 Thomas: Hmm. Hmm, Yeah, but, but it's a relationship, you know, like if you're, if your issue is you're, is your best way of mitigating something that you're really working hard on, and that's the way you need to do it. But I think you may need to be met somewhere in the middle on that. You know, it's I don't think I think you also get to have ways that you prefer or are able to communicate. You don't have to just be I have to do everything a way that my partner, you know, It's a give and take. It can't be one way or the other, you know? Otherwise, that's not that's Not a relationship. That's just you having to change for someone else completely, right?

0:22:02 Tom: Oh yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah Right. Right? Yeah, no, yeah, you're right. Well, that, that's what I mean. It's like that same advice that I would take, which is I would try to tailor my style of conflict. I would expect my wife to do the same thing, right? She would also have a risk. She would have a similar responsibility and that's how we try to meet. That's, that's how I would imagine we would try meet in the middle. You know what I mean? If we both feel the same responsibility to have conflict that aims at resolution that aims at hearing the other person and that respects with the other person how the other is best communicated with and then I think you naturally will begin to gravitate toward that center space but yeah, if it's all just on one person, that doesn't work right like how does that work like that's just like guess I eat shit, you know, like that stuff, that's not, that doesn't work. Oh,

0:22:48 Thomas: Mm hmm. Mm hmm, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I wanted to bring that up when it comes to the like, you know, oh, you should have. It's not healthy if you haven't fought. Going back to that sentiment, like I would amend that a little bit to say it's it's only not healthy to not fight. If you are keeping things in that really matter to you, you may just have had a good stretch of like, oh yeah, you're very compatible. We don't happen to disagree on a bunch of stuff. And, you Know, maybe we've had little stuff, but you know we haven't had like a big blowout. Yeah, that could be some people, or what's really happening is someone is coping or pretending they're fine when they're not, and that's, that's the struggle, that's the important thing, that is the damaging thing, not the arbitrary decision of have you fought enough or not. It's, is there enough stuff that that's brewing that needs to be expressed that isn't being expressed, I think, right?

0:23:29 Tom: No yeah no not at all yeah right yeah I I think, think you shouldn't have some like arbitrary measure of like, all right, we have to have a a big emotional conflict every quarter, uh, we haven't had one in two quarters looks like we're a little behind our year-over-year conflict resolution is not really up to budget this year. Like, we don't, you don't have to do that, but I think that if you have a sense that conflict isn't worth having loving because resolution isn't achievable, that's, I guess, where I was driving to, right? So yeah right, yeah

0:23:56 Eli: Yeah. Right. Cause

0:24:03 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:24:23 Thomas: That's what I mean. Yeah, that wouldn't be healthy. Yeah, yes,

0:24:26 Eli: Also think that the, to look at that question or that statement generously, the, like, you need to have a fight. I think what's implied by that statement at best is you need to have a means of solving conflict. Right? Because there really are people who don't have a means of solving conflict, and when they get to that point, and I see this now as a parent, it's huge. You get to the point where like everything matters, everything, the stakes are a million times a million, you better know how to solve that conflict right, it, because

0:24:37 Thomas: Yes. Yeah. Yeah! There you go. Oh, man. I was just going to say, now that I'm thinking about it, Lydia and I, as people in a relationship, and and and again, always allow that, like, you know, maybe there's something going on in Lydia's mind that I'm not privy to, could be, you know, like it could.

But if we didn't have kids or a fucking dog, that we just honestly wouldn't, there, there would be very few fights because we two people who don't let stuff go unsaid, brewing or whatever, or like we go to bed mad, we cannot, we can't, that's just impossible to us, like we, we literally cannot, we can't even both of us, we can even like operate if the other person's upset for any period extended of time, so we just don't end up really fighting like at all, except, and that's why I was gonna hard agree, Eli, with with you, once you bring fucking three kids into the picture and now this goddamn dog, there, it's so, so everything is so stretched.

You just don't have the breathing room and the time and the sleep that you need to be patient. So, like, that's, you know, yeah, like you said, I mean, that's when stuff, we don't, we're not fighting all the time, but there's always a little bit of like, God, we're both just fucking, we're just struggling right now, you know, and so it's very easy for either of us, especially me, because I'm probably the more like sensitive one, in sensitive in a bad way.

Like, I'm sensitive to, like, I feel like you, she's doing something that hurts my feelings too much or something. And it's just way easier for us to, to happen for that to happen when we're just fucking, we're juste dying right now. Like, we're justo

0:24:57 Tom: Yep yeah

0:26:29 Thomas: Drowning.

0:26:29 Eli: You're a team, right, you you go from the easiest thing in the world, which is, you know, fucking your bro, right, you meet this bro who rules, and you guys fuck and that's awesome, and then they're like, oh, did you, you enjoy that fucking, and the big party, did you enjoy that big, I loved the big part where we said nice things about, loved it, yeah, it was great, and then you walked down the center of the all, your friends and family, they clapped, cool, now you're Delta Force, and if you mess up for a second, your kid will die, and if you mess up more than a second, you're gonna die, your kid'll do heroin and then die. So yeah

0:26:36 Tom: Yeah

0:26:30 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and and I don't know if this if you're quite at this, Eli, with with your son. But then then when they reach a certain age, the kids emotions get mixed into to where they're heightening into an emotional screaming state at a drop of a fucking hat, which then puts you in. It's just a lot to be around. Like when your kid is instantly, you know, all the time, it's like it's hard to not for that not to affect everybody. It's just going to happen. It doesn't matter who you are. You're going to have tense moments at the very least and some sort of, you want to call them fights or disagreements or things to resolve, conflicts, if you add enough of that fucking variable to the mix. And we've added a lot of that variable to our mix over here.

0:26:59 Tom: Yeah

0:27:17 Eli: Yeah

0:27:23 Tom: And

0:27:45 Eli: Don't

0:27:46 Tom: Add, like, if you are in a relationship or you're in a marriage that, where you have a lot of tension and conflict and not, and you don't have kids, don't have kids. Don't for real.

0:27:57 Eli: Have kids to fix people have kids

0:27:59 Tom: I know that my answer is always don't Have kids. I know it, but like, I think a lot less people should be having kids don't

0:27:59 Eli: To fix it no

0:27:57 Thomas: Yeah, that's always Tom's always like, if you if you're right handed, don't have kids. It'll never work out. Yeah, you don't

0:28:07 Tom: Have kids and lefty isn't really good either. Look, but for real, and you guys, you guys are exactly the reason that, like, you would, the points you were making are exactly right. Don't have kids. It's, no, like, if you're in a relationship where you have a lot of tension, you have a lot conflict, like, that kids are going to be a source of conflict and tension. You're going to have deep, you're going, here's this thing that's going to be in your life that you love deeply together, and then will disagree about, right? You will disagree about what you want sometimes and outcomes, and is tough stuff

0:28:14 Thomas: Want anyone to have kids?

0:28:42 Thomas: Could be the kind of thing where I'm just a fucking asshole piece of shit about it. But you say disagreements. I just want to check with every, all the other parents of 900 screaming babies and a dog. Guys You also have a lot of things that are just, they're not even fucking disagreeing. They're just dumb things of like, didn't you put the milk in the thing? No, I didn't put the, I thought you put in the milk. No, we put, you know, like, isn't that, that's most of everything for our household. It's just, it's such a chaos thing that it's like, oh, I thought you did something or you thought I was going to do something or, you, you Know, it'S not like a foundational philosophy disagreement.

0:29:16 Tom: That's just, that's just that just the tension, but yeah, that's yeah

0:29:17 Thomas: It's just a tense fucking situation. Okay. I just want to make sure that, cause that's like most of all the, everything for, for us, all the conflict.

0:29:25 Tom: But that shit built, I will say, like, that shit is a bunch of nothing until, sometimes for some people it's not, and those things can build up over time to create, like little micro resentments

0:29:30 Thomas: Yeah. Oh sure. If it's like a pattern or whatever. Yeah. But, but this is not a pattern. It'S just like, yeah, yeah.

0:29:36 Tom: Yeah no right, I'm, yeah I'm just saying, like, but there's a lot of people that have relationships that are like unstable relationships where they have, and and they don't fucking have kids. Just don't fuckin' do it. Because you're just, like, what?

0:29:46 Thomas: Yeah.

0:29:48 Eli: And they have kids because they think it's the next step, and it's like, oh man, is that a bad idea it's such a bad idea. Also, I just gotta throw this out there, look, I know divorce is hard no matter what, and I haven't been divorced, so I don't, I don't want to shit on anyone's experience, but when you get divorced, that's a breakup with paperwork, if you have kids, that's a whole fucking thing you are doing some weird shit to your child, and you need to not, you need to be real serious about whether or not it's

0:29:54 Tom: Ugh! The worst idea!

0:30:16 Thomas: Yeah,

0:30:24 Tom: Ha ha ha

0:30:25 Eli: Gonna go okay, right because I know people who fucking, they jump into things, and they're in a marriage for a year before they get divorced, you know they have kids and stuff, and I'm just like, this is all very you did very important things too quickly, too quickly, take a semester I'll

0:30:25 Tom: Ha!

0:30:26 Thomas: Too

0:30:35 Tom: Jesus Christ.

0:30:38 Thomas: Fast. Yeah totally. I'm going to try to, um, sort of bridge the gap on the don't have kids thing in that. I think that again, not even about that actually. It's just, I'm trying to formulate like what's the healthy level of disagreement or fighting or what the characteristics are. And in really think it matters gauging what's... First off, what's bothering you? Is it a consistent pattern that you're always bothered by your partner or whatever, vice versa?

When this thing happens, is it a one -time event where they did something and that was a major thing? And then when that happened, how it? Were were they receptive and validating of your feelings in that situation? Did it feel like the issue got, if not completely resolved, did you feel like it was addressed in a meaningful way and attempts were made?

You know, like those are all things that you can have, you know, maybe your people who, I don't know what the spectrum is of fighty people versus not fighty people. Cause clearly, you in terms of major fights, Lydia and I are way low on that that spectrum. I to make any sort of value judgment about like, okay, maybe there are some people who just are more fighty people. Maybe it doesn't bother them as much to be in conflict as it might bother me or whatever.

I guess I'm saying the way to gauge it is not necessarily a fight counter or something like a ticker of how many fights. I think quality and the characteristics of what those fights are and what's happening.

0:32:07 Eli: Make it even easier, right, because I think the sick test is great practice for babies, right, to Ruby Tuesday, go to Rubber Tuesday as many times as you need to until you both have simultaneous food poisoning, what do you need to vomit and shit at the same time, your partner needs to vomit it and shit at the same time, what's happening, what's happening between, does that person still care about you even though they're also a Roman fountain, if they don't, do not, I'm team Tom all the way, do not have fucking kids if they are only their best at their best.

Right, me and Anna got sick at the same time in Europe together, and genuinely, like that, and when my father died, and she just sort of, I was like, hey, I know you have known me as this person who is fairly able to take care of themselves. I am completely without ability to take care of myself for the next however long. And she absolutely stepped up. I mean, she stepped up in a way that I always adored her. I always thought it was going well, but that was a major moment for our relationship where I realized that this was a person who could do the hard things that life will ask of you, especially having

0:32:25 Thomas: My God, that's that's hard.

0:32:37 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, no, I agree.

0:33:17 Eli: Kids. And And she and she proves that every day.

0:33:20 Thomas: I think what we're saying is poison your spouse is what, you know.

0:33:20 Eli: Right.

0:33:22 Tom: Ha ha! Just a little, just to see, yeah.

0:33:23 Eli: To just go to Ruby Tuesdays a bunch. Just keep going to Ruby Thursdays. Look, look,

0:33:25 Tom: Ha ha,

0:33:26 Thomas: Thank you for not buying into the horrible and defamatory Taco Bell trope, Eli. I appreciate that. Everybody, the joke. Oh, Taco Bell, you'll be shitting your. No, I eat Taco Bell four times a day. It's fine. It's healthy food. It's not anything that's a slander on me as a person.

0:33:32 Eli: I

0:33:34 Tom: Ha ha, ah, ha, ahhh! Ha haa, haaah, haaa, aaaah, aaaaah, ahaa, ahaaa, aaaaaaah! Ha haaaahaa,

0:33:47 Thomas: It doesn't cause food poisoning every time you eat it. Everybody's always like, oh yeah, you talk about the shits for a week. What are you talking about? That's not real. It's just beans and fucking the normal shit everybody else eats. I just okay. I'll step off my soapbox. I feel like that's important to be said.

0:33:47 Tom: Haaaaahaaahaaaahaaa!

0:34:01 Eli: Hey.

0:34:01 Tom: This episode brought to you by Taco Bell.

0:34:01 Eli: No. Thomas.

0:34:04 Tom: Taco -

0:34:03 Thomas: Oh God, I wish that would be my dream

0:34:05 Eli: I get I am also a platinum. That little rewards app is the most like guilty thing in my life.

0:34:09 Thomas: Wait a minute. There's a Taco Bell rewards app

0:34:11 Eli: You're not on the Taco Bell rewards app? Oh, dude. Dude.

0:34:13 Thomas: No, I would have maxed out the system. Whatever it is. It would have been I would've been I wouldn't beaten it I would of won it. I woulda won like the end of Tetris that nobody's ever seen or something. It would be like, wow, you you beat the app

0:34:18 Tom: Somehow Thomas wins flights, places, like it's not even Taco Bell related pin

0:34:16 Eli: Yeah. Yeah. You what Mr. Bell, you're gonna activate it, Mr. Bell's gonna come and suck your dick, he's just gonna, that it's way at the bottom of the fine print, but that's, that's gonna happen. Yeah, no, get on that Bell app, man, get on the fucking Bell app, get some free shit, uh,

0:34:39 Thomas: In that yeah

0:34:42 Tom: Want to come back to another, um, I know, I know, we were talking about like, well, some amount of of fighting is is maybe healthy, or maybe not healthy, it depends on your relationship, and I, and this is just like personal stuff that I've encountered, but I don't, I think, I think maybe it would resonate for other people too, is that another way, that another tactic that I've seen and experienced, where people avoid having conflict. And I think, again, conflict, if conflict is aimed toward resolution, conflict is necessary in a relationship, like a long-term relationship, you've got to have some conflict in order to get to resolution. And something that I haven't encountered and something to watch out for, and I watch it with kids and their relationships too, is there are, and I don't know what the right phrase for this is, but there are people who will find themselves conveniently always in crisis at or around the time conflict is about to appear, right?

0:35:11 Thomas: Interesting.

0:35:37 Thomas: Yeah.

0:35:38 Tom: That some people will use to avoid having that conflict, conflict, and having to face what is necessary to get to resolution, right? So and I've, that in the relationship I had with my ex, where every time there would be some point of tension, all of a sudden there would be a crisis, there'd be some kind of crisis, and that crisis would require me to again switch into a different mode, and then the time has sort of passed to where it would be inappropriate or weird, or, you know, to bring that up, I've watched that with other people too, that's not something that just I have experienced I have seen that

0:35:49 Eli: Yeah. My No. It's

0:36:14 Thomas: No, I I was just gonna say I didn't, I don't want to interrupt you, but but I was just thinking psychologically, it's just interesting to think about what's going on there, and I want to raise my my hand as someone who, not that I didn't have that particular tactic, but I would say, I, in, in, in like my early relationships, as a younger guy, before I had, you know, more things figured out, at least a little better, um, would have been someone who has a lot of toxic ways of avoiding the appropriate conflicts. And I, for me, it's because of self -esteem.

And I think what happens with a lot people, I'm not going to speak for everybody, but I think with a of people, the reason this is so hard is, if you think I'm doing something wrong, so if your partner thinks you're doing something wrong, that must mean you fundamentally are wrong as a person. Like, there must be something.

And the people people that don't have a healthy self esteem have a really fucking hard time with that, would not contract it to, holy shit, it turns out I just, I fucking saw, they hate me, I can't do it, you know, and so there, there, I think I'm just, you know, speculating. I think there are ways of kind of coping with that that are toxic, of trying to make it so it doesn't, you, isn't real, or it doesn't happen, or it doesn't, whatever.

And I think it's the healthier thing to be able to do, which I'm still, God knows I'm striving for, to be able to be comfortable being, having, you, done something wrong, having someone have a problem with you, and be comfortable with, like, OK, I need to, I need a solution, I need you to fix that. And that's valid. That's the hard thing to do, I think.

0:36:16 Tom: Yeah yeah yeah

0:36:16 Eli: It's real, yeah.

0:37:41 Eli: Absolutely, and it's hard in general to bring that even broader, broader, it's hard to say, I am bad about this and it doesn't mean I'm a bad person. Right I cannot do this, or I'm not doing, I'm not doing this well in my relationship, I'm not showing up for my partner in this way, and it is now my job not to make this about me, right?

0:37:51 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

0:38:04 Eli: Because I know a lot of people who have failings in their relationship, and what they do is they, oh, they beat themselves up so good there, there, the WWE wishes for fight choreography as majestic and dramatic as the self-flagellation these people do, but they don't actually make any changes, right? They're just like, I'm a piece of shit, man, she deserves better than me, and you're like, yeah, sounds like it,

0:38:04 Thomas: Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

0:38:23 Tom: Yeah yep yeah, that's, that's kind of the tactic I was talking about in the beginning, where it's like the person just immediately accepts all responsibility in this like over-exaggerated emotional way that just immediately dissolves the conflict and then never actually arrives at resolution, right.

0:38:32 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:38:43 Thomas: Because Yes, because that's centered on how do I get out of feeling like my partner is possibly angry with me? Not how do I fix a problem? You know, that's it's a short -term oriented thing. Short

0:38:56 Eli: Right

0:38:56 Tom: Yeah. I I will say like similarly, but a little bit different to you, Thomas. It's like when most of my life and my dad never had fights in front of me with Lynn, like he and Lynn never had a fight in front of me. I'm sure that they've had fights.

0:39:09 Eli: Is this is business partner, or your mom, this is the, okay, this is a handshake, lady, okay, can't just have a first name now, Tom, okay, she was Prison Warden, Room Shakeout, and then all of a sudden she's fucking Lynn, no, we can't, we're not just giving names out

0:39:12 Tom: That's his business part. Yeah, it's his LLC partnership. Yeah. They I but like, I, until Hayley, I had no basis for how to have a, a and how to move in, so I still struggle, like, we'll have a conflict, and we'll have, and it'll be emotional, and like, you know, we'll, and we do a good job actually of getting through those emotions and then hearing each other and arriving at a resolution, and then for three days days after that, I am convinced our relationship is over.

0:39:55 Tom: Like I am because I'm not conflict adverse, but I'm just like, all right, couple shouldn't fight. We had this big fight. Like, I know this isn't true too. Right.

0:39:34 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, that's not good.

0:39:54 Eli: Yeah

0:40:06 Thomas: Yeah.

0:40:06 Tom: But in part of me is like, but we had this Big Fight and like, I hurt her fucking feelings or she hurt my Feelings. And like, nothing is going to be the same because when we first got together, nobody had ever hurt anybody ever before. And that was was better and like that's nonsense and I know it, I know that that's nonsense and it's not how a long term, but there is a niggling little part of me that cannot let go of, you broke the whole thing, Tom. You broke the whole thing. I've, I've got this great thing and I probably don't deserve it. It's going to fucking break any minute, you know? So like if, if I've done anything that, creates, if we have this moment, like whether I'm in the wrong or not, it doesn't matter. It's like we, for a few minutes, we're upset with each other and

0:40:11 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is

0:40:31 Eli: Yeah.

0:40:47 Thomas: Yeah.

0:40:48 Tom: I hate that. And like, I, I have a heart cause I go through so much of my, like I put real significant and concerted effort into always making us like as happy as we can be. Like our happiness is a deeply important thing that I am conscious of and a steward of. And so like when our collective relational happiness is disturbed, like feel deeply unsettled by that.

0:40:49 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:41:12 Tom: And she doesn't, right? Because she grew up having conflict and resolving conflict and then everybody was okay with each other. And I grew up not having any conflict at all unless you hated somebody. Right, the conflict I had, like, the only conflict I had, my dad, and I never had, like, we never fought with each other. My dad was right because he was my dad. I did what he said because if you didn't, you were in trouble. It was a very simple relationship. We didn't have conflict. The conflict I had was I had a conflict with somebody and now I hate them, and that's the end of them. Like, they're gone. And we've, maybe we got a fist fight, that's how conflict was for me, or

0:41:12 Thomas: Yeah, uh, I

0:41:49 Eli: Yep.

0:41:50 Thomas: Can relate to that, because for my dad, he was so incapable of handling being in the wrong that if it seemed like he was in the wrong at all in a relationship, he just, he would have to bail. It'd have to be their fault and he bailed, or whatever, or like that, you know, or. Or even like he might kind of know it's his fault, but he like would bail as this fake, like, way to, you know, oh, he's doing them a favor by bailing. But either way, the thing is the same. He's out. He's not putting in the hard psychological work of trying to be better or fix something. You know, he just would bail.

So I have that, too, where it's like not much anymore, I don't think, but like back in the day where any conflict like that meant, oh, fuck this person. They're dead to me. You So one thing I just wanted to also tack on, an Tom, obligation I think we have in relationships, relationships somewhat, to communicate and be truthful, and something that I think doesn't get talked about as much. You know, I hear a lot of stories, or I hear a lot, you hear a lot of talk about, you know, my husband does this and it bothers me, and why doesn't he figure out, or whatever, my wife or whatever, why doesn't he, why isn't he better, basically. And, and to be fair, that's because there's a whole lot of very warranted attention on, often, why aren't men better with all these things? Like, why aren't

0:42:25 Tom: Right.

0:42:35 Eli: Yeah. Absolutely.

0:43:06 Thomas: They doing it? Why are are they pulling their weight? Why aren't they totally valid completely But one thing I think that's getting a little lost is sometimes I hear, if I'm talking to a friend or if I're hearing a situation online, whatever it is, where there's that. So they're like, I don't get why my husband doesn't do this or whatever it may be. And then later on, you find out they've never said anything about it. Like they've ever communicated their needs. And I think a little bit of attention needs to be paid on, there's two sides to this.

If you never communicate your needs, There are some things where it's like, yeah, OK, a human being should just be able to give you basic decency in certain ways that, yeah. You can expect without having to ask for it, of course. And if anyone isn't doing that, ofcourse, like that's a bad thing. There are other things where maybe they aren't having that. Maybe they're different in how they I don't know if it's a love language or whatever it might be. Maybe they'RE different in how they think they're coming across or what they think they're doing. And if you aren't communicative, that's also on you.

I want to say, you get to just be like, this person never met my needs. What a fucking horrible person. I think I saw this in one of the, like, am I the asshole kind of divorce type posts on Reddit, you know, that comes up from time to time. And it's like this person, my spouse never does this, never does that. And, and there'll be comments of like, well, have you, have you asked them to do? Have you told them to do it? It's like, well, no, but

0:43:07 Tom: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yep.

0:43:41 Tom: Well,

0:44:21 Thomas: Like, yeah, like you should just, and I just want To emphasize that that is an obligation in a relationship somewhat. Obviously there's a line there. Like if you've communicated and they, they haven't listened, totally different thing. But like, there is that, that's important, that's another side of it. If you don't communicate your needs adequately, you are part of the problem.

0:44:21 Tom: I shouldn't have to, I shouldn't have to tell Yeah, right. Yeah. Uh,

0:44:39 Eli: Absolutely. I cut people off instantly, Tom.

0:44:43 Tom: No.

0:44:43 Eli: And Thomas, I get it. I don't know, I do. I was thinking about that as you guys were talking about a little bit ago, just like that, that because my dad very much modeled that for me, is that he was all there for the people in his life, but like, my dad had several people who, if you uttered their name, right, be, be like, I hate that fucking guy, I'll give you, I'll give you a great example. I knew which box my dad's gun was in when he died because it had a guy's name on it who he didn't like, I was like a little joke my dad made for himself was like, hey, the guns are in the box with this guy's name because fuck that guy, I would like to

0:45:01 Tom: I Oh, My, God, that's fucked up. Oof.

0:45:12 Thomas: Okay.

0:45:18 Tom: Wow.

0:45:18 Eli: Shoot him in the head. Yeah, and I, I'm

0:45:20 Tom: That's I Wow.

0:45:19 Thomas: Oh, My god. As usual. Eli takes my point in terms of, there's a recent quote, Eli, that I want to save for, like, our hall of fame of quotes, where you're like, as usual, I want to take Thomas's good, good point and make it insane. I think it's a good theme for the show. Yeah.

0:45:26 Tom: Wow. Yeah,

0:45:36 Eli: Yeah. And, but that's also, so me, it's like, there, there are several people in my life who were incredibly close to me, incredibly important to me, and then just something clicked and they're literally dead now, not literally, figure they are figuratively dead now, and it's just, it is because that was modeled to me, and it is conflict aversion, right, in several of those cases, like, um, you know, I, I, uh, I want, want to be better about that, obviously. That never happens in my, um, uh, it's funny when Tom was talking about this well,

0:45:50 Thomas: Yeah. But

0:45:51 Tom: Right.

0:46:08 Thomas: Would be funny if it did one day, you're just like, sorry, you're dead to me. We still live together and we're, parent, co-parenting, but you're, you don't exist anymore.

0:46:13 Eli: Here's The thing, it used to happen in my relationships all the time, is I would break up way too quick, way too quickly, because I modeled on my parents. My parents were this amazing couple who adored each other, and they'd be like, oh, you don't want, want to go to brunch, and I'd be like, we should break up, it's obviously not going to work out, I think the eggs benedict looks better, we get, uh, do you want your shit back? I'll put it in a box and leave it in front of your dorm, because I just, like, it was, it had to be perfect or nothing.

0:46:43 Tom: Yeah.

0:46:43 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:46:44 Eli: And What, one of the really valuable things that parenting has taught us as a couple is compromise, and appreciating that sometimes you're just going to continue to disagree. My friend Ann said, said something the other day, which fucking blew my noodle. And she said it, she said it so mildly and without, like, emphasis, she was just like, yeah, you know, you have the same four fights over and over again. Like, that's, that's every relationship.

0:46:44 Thomas: Yeah, fair. Really,

0:47:08 Eli: And I, but I think, I think it is, I mean, I don't know if it's true, but I, I, it's, it, it is the same fight over and it just takes different forms throughout your relationship. Cause I thought about that so much and I came home to Anna and I was like, we do have the the same four fights over and over again. It's just, and we, we list, I listed them out. Cause I'm always, I always want to inquire into these things. And I mean this, I mean, this, this is not like a self -deprecation thing. Almost all of our fights are okay. So here's what I do that sucks. And then we have a fight about it. Right. Cause, and look, that's, that'S just a hundred. That's not me like being like, Oh no. Like, like really most of the time I have to be like, well, Well, usually it'll be a situation where I'm doing this, which admittedly not great, but then you will

0:47:08 Tom: Oh, I have that written down. Yeah not to do that.

0:47:58 Eli: Respond and that's on you for being present with my horrible ghoulish self.

0:48:05 Thomas: Well,

0:48:06 Tom: All Right, so, so I want to jump on that in a different angle, because I, I feel really differently about that. Like, and I, and I've thought a lot about this, like, you fight that is conflict into resolution without a commitment to change, and the the corresponding change is a nightmare, that's toxic awful shit, right?

So like, if you have a conflict, and then you resolve it, and you say, all right, I was in the wrong and here's what I'm going to do to fix this, like, I, here's what I'm committing to do to fix this problem so it doesn't reoccur, and then it reoccurs, like, are a problem at that point, right? That should require you to pause and be like, all right, we've had this fight, the same fight twice about the same thing. I'm not talking about thematically, right?

Thematically most fights are, we miscommunicated, right? So I don't want to like go that deep into the into the deep, you know, foundation of it. But if you're, if you're like, look, I promise I'll do this thing, and then you don't do the thing you promised you would do, like, horrible, like that's shitty, horrible behavior. And I, I, I, I would encourage people not to go down that road, right?

0:49:11 Thomas: I could, I could try to take the like slightly more optimistic view on that, which, not saying you're wrong, just like, this is another possibility sometimes, which is, if it's a thing that, if it's a repeated fight, it could be based on tendencies that you both have, one way or the other. Like, maybe you have a tendency to do a certain thing too much, and this person has a tendency that that's a sensitivity for them.

And it could be that, like, because your default mode and what you're used to, or what your behavior has always been, is this thing that, it's, you know, it's an ongoing struggle to work on. And so if, I don't know if it's the same fight every time, but if it is, it is. It's a thing where it's like, yeah, this happened again, but in a way that's like, shit, I, I worked on that a ton.

And maybe this is, you know, this is maybe too autobiographical, because I'm worried about like, it's hard, it's hard, you know, working on yourself is not easy, it's not, but like, if you're, if you're making the effort, and you know, times out of ten you're good, but then when the fucking two kids and the dog are screaming at you, you, you revert, it's hard to be like, well, fuck you, you're not changing. It's like, well, god, it's really hard, so.

0:50:00 Tom: Yeah.

0:50:14 Eli: You, so I use myself as an example, and it's this funny one. It was the first one I came up with when I was talking about, like, what four fights we have. One of the big triggers of fights, and this is the ones before kids that we had, is the, the way that I get my head around morally tricky or ethically tricky questions, or just things that come up in society that I haven't totally wrapped my head about, is to ask questions, right? And the person I ask questions most often is my wife, because I adore her and she's my best buddy and I want to know what she thinks of everything, right. A lot of the time when I ask questions, I do the straight white male thing of kind of devil's advocating. And look, right.

0:50:54 Thomas: Why don't we eat the poor? Yeah.

0:50:57 Eli: Exactly. Like, that's the thing is I don't know how to investigate claims without pushing back against them. Right. Because If someone's like, hey, we obviously don't eat the poor, and I'm like, yes, don't ate the poor, I didn't learn anything. So I'm like, okay, well, let's, let's list some good things about the poor, and then her arguments are bad, she'll be like, I love how few teeth they have, and I'll be like, see, now that's not a good one. And and then she'll be like, hey man, we've been talking for like 45 minutes and you've been making a long, very involved argument about eating the poor, and that upsets me.

0:51:03 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:51:11 Tom: Yeah.

0:51:33 Eli: Because I feel like I'm sharing my life with someone who wants to eat the poor. And look, here's the other thing and I've gotten

0:51:34 Thomas: Why are you doing that?

0:51:39 Tom: And you have to be like, look, I don't believe the things I say. Wait, no, that's also a problem.

0:51:41 Eli: That's the problem is

0:51:44 Thomas: Yeah, that is a problem.

0:51:44 Eli: You gotta get you gotta get better at not saying things you don't believe. You also have to get better at not being like, okay, but if I'm wrong just make a better argument, right? Like let's just don't don't make me switch over to your side against me, like a fuckin' dark universe Superman situation, I gotta step out of a portal against myself, you do the thing, I I'm, let's beat the devil, don't make me do it, but I've gotten better about that, but the underlying problem, which is that I just need to think about things in my own head, is not, he's not gonna change and never will.

0:51:45 Thomas: Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah, what? Yeah. That's a struggle.

0:51:54 Tom: Yeah.

0:52:04 Thomas: Yeah? Yeah? Yep. Yep.

0:52:21 Tom: Then I would and I hear both of you guys. So I would add some nuance to to what I was saying before, which is that if you have conflict and resolution and a commitment to change, that commitment should, of course, be based on your ability to change. Right. You shouldn't you should not commit to like.

0:52:21 Thomas: Mm.

0:52:39 Thomas: Should be Like, Tom, you have to get taller. Like, just fucking, you haven't agreed to get taller, yeah, yeah,

0:52:41 Tom: Right. Yeah. Right. Just if I fucking could, I would like, you know, you, you have to be able to say, look, this is, and I think it's also important to like reasonably set expectations. Like, look. That's a big ask for me. I'll work on it. I will make mistakes in trying. And in return for my work on this, I Would ask that you be patient and assume my best in my best intentions. If I do it again, right? That kind of thing goes an enormously long way to having people understand and build goodwill. And then that's something you can refer back to, right. You can say, when you do the same thing again, you can say I, you know what? I know I did that again. This is a slightly different circumstance. And I, I responded to it this way. I see it now. You know, it, it gives you something to refer back too. What I think I was trying to call out is like repetitive shit,

0:52:46 Eli: Right.

0:52:54 Thomas: Yeah.

0:53:07 Thomas: And that's That's the healthier version of scorekeeping, where it's, you know, it's keeping track of, like, where we are in our commitments to each other kind of thing. It's also another thing, I'm not sure, and, and Tom, you know, good point, I, I agree with all that, I think think that's right. I'm not sure also, like, how much discomfort is okay day to day. You know, like, I don't know that we know the answer to that. And I think that it's something I struggle with.

Like, there are things, because I'm the asshole, and I said this, you know, said this to my wife, like, most of our arguments are something's bothering me, and it's because I suck. Like, there's just too much bothers me. Like, I get that. And so it's like I'm trying to find the places where this is a thing that's valid and I should be bothered by it. And this is the thing that like I just I need to live in discomfort a little bit, you know, for the sake of a relationship. Like there are so many positives in a real in any relationship, let alone mine with my what my wife, the positives I get from Lydia are incalculable. There's no, you there. So it's finding that line of like, so there's going to be some sacrifices, you no two people are just magically everything is perfect at all times between them. And so being appropriate in terms of like having appropriate perspective on like, okay, how big of a deal is this thing actually, you Know?

0:54:14 Tom: Right I'm

0:54:59 Eli: You also, I, I don't know if you struggle with this, Thomas, but I'm, I'm a misanthrope, right, and my wife and lydia from little I've experienced Lydia like Lydia and Anna are both these very positive very welcoming people at least in my experience, I know my wife is a very positive, welcoming person, and so that often means that she indulges things or people that I don't have as much patience for. And so one of the things I've had to learn to do, being the gremlin that I am, is like, not instantly tip my hand that that I hate someone my wife doesn't necessarily hate.

0:55:04 Thomas: Hmm. Mm -hmm. Hmm.

0:55:30 Thomas: Yeah, but then that can come around the other way because you're totally right about that. But then my wife is too far the otherway. I don't think your wife is this way. My wife is two nice and she knows that she's two people pleasing so that sometimes we have to be there to be like, hey, no, fuck that person. What are you talking? They're taking advantage of you or they're being, you know what I mean? Like that's too far. Like you're being too accommodating.

0:55:50 Eli: Oh yeah. No.

0:55:48 Tom: Right Now, because I cannot relate, Hayley, it's not that way at all.

0:55:57 Thomas: About to give his kidney to someone he doesn't know, and she's like, "What, the what are you doing, Tom?"

0:56:01 Tom: Yeah, a hundred percent, she'd be like, "I might need that kidney someday, you fucking put that thing back in your goddamn back, that's mine." She's like, I called marriage, dibs on that Kidney.

0:56:04 Eli: What if I get snacky?

0:56:07 Thomas: Can you have a third kidney. Yeah, can we put another one in you? Oops.

0:56:12 Eli: No but my wife. It's no people pleasing it is that my wife has more. Patience and gentleness and generosity than I do. And I, there are things that are fine, right? That are not bad that I think are dumb and you shouldn't like them or enjoy them. And I don't, I don'T like, and if you like something too much, cause again, my prep, you are what you practice, right. And all I do all day is a shit on shit, right? I just, I watch a movie and I shit on it. And then I read the news and I sit on it and then And I read a Wikipedia article and I shit on it. That's all. That's what I do. It's my whole life's work.

0:56:45 Tom: Oh,

0:56:27 Thomas: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. God, that's it. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Wanted to issue an apology that will be so badly timed because of the delay on this show. Although my wife, you know, she's a patron, she gets the patron fee. I did this very thing last night, and I feel I should apologize to my wife in person, but I was playing a video game and she was watching a show, and that's her time to watch her shows that I don't want to watch. Totally valid thing. And sometimes the shows are so bad that I have a hard time. I'm like, I'm like, I can't, I'm sorry, I can't. I can'T even be around this. It's so fucking dumb. I CAN'T. The reboot of How I Met Your Mother is so bad that I was like, I can't look at this guy. This actor bothers me so much. It's like, I'm sorry. I gotta leave or something. And I normally, I don't, you know, I don't say too much, but I made a comment, and I was, like, I shouldn't have made a comment. This is her time.

0:57:15 Tom: No. Oh,

0:57:35 Eli: It sucks.

0:57:36 Thomas: This is her beautiful time to watch a piece-of-shit show that fucking sucks so hard, and apparently enjoy it. She's exhausted. She's a nursing mother. And I had the temerity to be like, God, I don't like that guy. What am I doing? Why? Why did I need to do that?

0:57:37 Eli: It's yeah.

0:57:37 Tom: Yeah. Yeah.

0:57:51 Eli: Who? This is what I always do. I'm always like, who is that for? Who is that? Who is it for?

0:57:53 Thomas: Such an asshole. Who is that for? Who is that

0:57:56 Eli: Right?

0:57:56 Thomas: For?"

0:57:57 Eli: She'll take some beautiful person with sweetness under their wing. And that person will be like, do you like this cartoon? And I'll be like. Fuck you. And they'll be. Like. And I'm like. Who? For whomst? For me? Me and the chorus of demons at the back of my skull. Why?

0:58:12 Thomas: Yep. Okay. I'm glad we got to this, Eli. That's good common ground we have that we got to work on. I got to working on that. I feel

0:58:20 Eli: Also, I don't, I don't know if you do this and Thomas, I feel like you're probably better about this than I am, but I don't t know how to be normal. So I will, the solution I've come up with is to be overly friendly, like a fucking Miss Rachel cartoon character, right? I'm just like, hey, oh my goodness, this it's one what a blessing to see you, I'm gonna take today and

0:58:46 Thomas: Like we know that's not me, but I could be, then you

0:58:48 Eli: Mold it in gold and they're like, oh you're being fake, don't be fake, and I'm like, I hate you, and I's like, nope, some there has to be a middle you have to find a middle oh so I think in conclusion, don't marry anyone but, but Tom, marry Tom if you get a chance.

0:58:56 Thomas: Go the other way. Yeah. Yeah, we Yep, yep. Yeah in a game of fuck, marry, kill, marry Tom and just then quit the game. That is all. You don't have to do the other. Well I guess you could fuck one of us. No never mind.

0:59:13 Eli: And then kill Thomas and I. Yeah,

0:59:15 Tom: I don't know about that.

0:59:18 Thomas: Yeah go ahead. Yeah feel free.

0:59:18 Eli: You can fuck one of us. We all know who you want to fuck. It's fine. We don't need to go through the whole game. It's Fine. We're all having a good time here on Dear Old Dads. We don't need to rank. We've already ranked on my show The Attractiveness on one of my podcasts. And it really, really bummed me.

0:59:35 Tom: Yeah, that was fun. That was a great time. Fourth.

0:59:37 Eli: Whatever, Mr. Fourth Place.

0:59:39 Tom: I was four out of five.

0:59:39 Eli: You're fine. You're fucking fine.

0:59:41 Tom: I was five.

0:59:41 Thomas: Oh god that's horrible.

0:59:41 Eli: You're Fucking Fine.

0:59:42 Tom: Four out of four out of five, no

0:59:42 Thomas: Why Did You why Did you do that? Why would you Guys Do

0:59:45 Eli: You're At Least Next To The no, they did it without our permit. One listener did it, and we mentioned it, and then every Listener Was like, oh, I didn't Realize we're doing a vote, and the you know what, you know it hurts the most how Consistent The results were, that's what hurts the most. Oh,

0:59:45 Thomas: Oh No Oh No Don't Do that Oh

0:59:45 Tom: Listener.

1:00:01 Tom: I didn't see any other results, but that one, and I don't want to. Too. I like, that's fine. I think I'm beautiful.

1:00:06 Eli: Yeah

1:00:02 Thomas: No Oh God That Is so that reminds me of a post I saw that I remember, I shared with Eli at the time, which was like someone said, if you post a picture and everyone's like, damn, you're so beautiful, looks great, oh look at you, that means you're probably like not very good looking. If you post one and it's like, hot, that means you're probably really hot. You like the

1:00:27 Eli: Yeah

1:00:28 Tom: Favorite is when you post a picture of yourself and your spouse and, and all the comments like, Oh, how did a guy like you get a, and I'm just like, cool. I've blocked you forever.

1:00:36 Thomas: I Hate that shit. Yeah. That's

1:00:37 Eli: I Also know, but

1:00:45 Thomas: In the same category of those, don't you want to kill your spouse all the time things? It's like, it's a norm that we have, like, oh look at you, you fucking disgusting dirtbag, Fat piece of shit, how did you get a any sort Of woman to, whatever, you're like, all right, right, okay, yeah.

1:00:56 Tom: So Yeah, that's great. Like, I don't

1:00:59 Eli: I Know Man I Know, don't Put it on the picture. I know, I'm aware, we all knew, you didn't have to rank everybody on my show, we knew, knew, we all knew, we didn't know We know you're Gonna fuck and who you're gonna marry And who you're going to Kill Yeah And

1:01:03 Thomas: Whatever Mr. Fourth Place Is the place And Your fucking ivory tower, I like

1:01:21 Eli: Your ivory He's Next to the podium at least I'm standing there clapping with like the people who run the cameras Right, gentlemen, before we go, uh, think there's something wrong with the power in my house, uh, yeah, something about the light switch, is off parenting.

1:01:22 Tom: And fourth place. All

1:01:49 Thomas: That, oh,

1:01:50 Tom: Oh,

1:01:53 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

1:02:31 Thomas: Like, what's the word? Yeah. That That's Funny, I Was going For the same Word, but I feel like there's a different one. That's so funny. Emotionally, what is that word we're both thinking of? Anyway, yeah. Not evocative. Like emotive?

1:02:33 Tom: Or effusive or like yeah articulate yeah

1:02:45 Thomas: Is that what, yeah, emotive.

1:02:44 Tom: That's not the right word yeah yeah yeah Yeah.

1:02:48 Thomas: No, just emotive, like you're emoting, right? Isn't that a word or am I? Yeah.

1:02:46 Eli: Emotional Yeah Yeah No, emotive is the word.

1:02:53 Thomas: Yeah.

1:02:49 Tom: Yeah. Because