DOD29: Hands Off My Daughter

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: To Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's going to meet you at the door with a scowl and a frown. I'm Tom Curry, and I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick.

0:00:36 Eli: Got my shotgun. Gun and my shovel and my condoms, but those are for me and my daughter and nobody else. Yee -haw!

0:00:47 Thomas: I wanna set the of the record straight, we're only doing this episode because I need to clarify that I was not an expert at fucking at 13, uh, I strongly implied that last time, I want to apologize, upon listening back I realized I went, I went straight, it breaks my heart, that's been two weeks now probably since people heard that one, um

0:01:03 Tom: Smith's 13-year-old self penned the the compendium to the Kama Sutra. It's

0:01:06 Thomas: Yeah. Uh, I was, I just didn't communicate well, that's on me. B, I also think part of what happened was I reacted really really strongly to the idea that someone wouldn't even talk to their married partner about sex. And like, that was where my strong reaction mainly was. And then that got mixed in with like, oh, but when you were, you know, 15, you definitely talked to your girlfriend about that. And like that was kind of two separate things. Um, and so no, like I definitely don't want to let, I want to correct the record. I was not some expert talking about fucking and, and communicative person about sex when I was like 15. That's not, not what I meant.

0:01:41 Eli: Thomas, I have some quotes here that I would just love if you want to correct the record on these. This is from a couple weeks ago. I can't not find the clitoris. Say that at 53 minutes.

0:01:47 Thomas: Okay. Yeah. I realize in retrospect that sounds that sounds like one thing, um, yeah, I thing I'm realizing too is Eli, you, you had talked about kind of that phase of like learning from your friends kind of thing, and I, realizing, I think that's probably because you just started a bit earlier. I was thinking about it and I was like, oh yeah, there was that phase when I was like, you know, pretty young, 30, early, you know, freshman, high school, early, 13, 14, where yeah, I, I would, I would kind of hear stuff from friends and, and maybe that was part of, you know, what I learned, but I wasn't, I was nowhere near having sex, you knows, just like, oh, making out and getting to second base. And so like, I definitely, I, I kind of forgot that fact. And so maybe that was one factor. If you got started a little earlier, maybe like that's where more of that, like listening to what your friends were doing part came in. I, but know, I totally cluelessly fumbled about for, you know, for, for the early, for sure. Definitely.

0:02:47 Thomas: Yeah. Like actually fumbled around. Didn't really know what was going on there. I was not some brilliant communicative lover at the age of 14. Didn't mean to imply that.

0:02:47 Eli: Literally, physically fumbled about. Okay, that makes this second quote a little bit hard to take then. I was a brilliant communicative lover at the age of 14. I was at 54 minutes.

0:03:04 Thomas: God, I see how that sounds. I see How that sounds.

0:03:06 Tom: When you say it, you got to contextualize it, though. It's all in the context.

0:03:07 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, it was the inflection though. The inflection.

0:03:13 Tom: Right.

0:03:13 Eli: Yeah, would love for us to talk about the thing we said we were. Otherwise, my intro to this episode is going to be weird as fuck. Look, I'm not saying we can't distracted.

0:03:18 Thomas: Yeah. So?

0:03:21 Tom: Right. Then We should get off topic and just like let Eli's intro sit there, just stinking up the place and making everyone uncomfortable.

0:03:26 Eli: A little bit of a cliffhanger

0:03:30 Thomas: Of doing this, like, sexisode the talk sequel was a- I really wanted to clarify that, and also b- um, we didn't get a chance to talk more about kind of the, a bit of the gender differences here. Now I know, um, Eli, you only have Max, and you had your balls chopped off, for the record. We haven't gotten an update on that in a while. Um, uh, so, unlikely- you that you're not, not impossible, but unlikely that you ever going to have a daughter and have this situation, but I'm still very curious of your thoughts, because there's a entire genre online and, when your daughter goes to her first prom, you take out your shotgun, you meet the- this kid at the door, and this whole fucking thing that I find- so it's hilarious, but it's also really disturbing, like it's the most funny thing in the world, but in the most disturbing way. This-

0:03:46 Eli: True.

0:04:12 Tom: Like, I'm just gonna like scare off the boys and like threaten them, and like all that, like, over your daughter stuff- is like, we all agree that is a horror show. Like, that is a fucking horror show. I will say that I am weirdly more sympathetic to that impulse.

0:04:21 Thomas: Yeah. I don't use a shotgun. I bring out a pistol. It's a smaller weapon. Okay. It's not as intense.

0:04:30 Tom: It's not. It's a .22. It's .22, it's- it's, I'm weirdly more sympathetic as my stepdaughter gets older and I recognize the unique dangers that she faces that just different in terms of of predation by men, by boys, that- that is unique to being a girl. And, and I, I worry differently about her, and I worry more acutely about her experiences than I worry about my boys. I worry about my boys in like these really sort of, um, almost like easier kind of romantic ways. Like, I don't want them to get their hearts broken. I don't want them to like be emotionally manipulated. I don't want- like, I have fears for them, I have worries, I have things to teach them, but but the stakes are- they're much lower, and I'm growing a little bit more sympathetic to kind of what animates that, and then you have to- but you have to sort of like step away from that and be like, all right, well- well, clearly intimidating every boy who comes to the front door and is trying to, you know, take your daughter out on a date is not the answer.

0:04:45 Thomas: Yeah.

0:05:17 Thomas: It's lower stakes.

0:05:36 Thomas: Mm -hmm. No.

0:05:38 Tom: That's a fucking crazy person nonsense thing to do. But but you have to balance that with the real and actual truth that like her sexuality is is a more dangerous thing for her in the world than a boy's sexuality.

0:05:39 Thomas: Yeah.

0:05:53 Thomas: All totally granted. I would go so far as to say that attitude, though, of the shotgun at the door thing, any amount of that attitude I think increases the risk for kid.

0:06:02 Tom: Totally agree that. And that's why you can't do it.

0:06:04 Thomas: I absolutely. I think this is so important to talk about. It. But I I think a very important thing that we could do as dads to keep our daughters safe – because I agree. There's no point in arguing. It's absolutely true. They are at more risk. They are at more risks. It's a fact. It is something that I don't think anyone would dispute. The way to keep them safest is to make sure they feel safe in coming to you. I honestly think that's it. You are not going to intimidate every guy into not sexually assaulting your daughter or something. But what you might do is be such a toxic piece of shit that your daughter would be too scared to tell you if something happened. Happened, that's

0:06:04 Tom: Right. Yeah. Yes. Yep. No,

0:06:43 Thomas: The most dangerous thing. That's what happens when, in these super conservative religious families, where it's like, well, if you have, I ever catched you having sex, I'm gonna fucking, you know, whatever, I'ma lock you in. That means if something happens, they are not going to come to you, and that puts them in a more dangerous situation. They won't have that help, so

0:06:45 Tom: That's exactly right.

0:07:00 Tom: And there's an added danger to it as well, in that girls have a opportunity that most boys will never have to. Opportunity is exactly the wrong word, but, um, know, if you alienate your daughter enough and you try to stand in the way she's trying to date somebody, they're a fucking total creep, they're 20 years older, you're, you're doing that like total cock block, dick move where you're just trying to authoritarianly kind of top down squash that, she can fucking leave, like is no end to the number of creeps that will be, be happy to say, "Come live with me. Leave your mom and dad. Come live with me." And now your daughter is living in a more dangerous situation than she would be if she were living at home and you had a healthy relationship with her and you could guide her through problematic relationships.

There's like this tendency, I think, to try to like, because the stakes are so much higher, manage down to zero the amount of risk that your daughter is exposed to, and I fucking totally get that, and I am afraid for my daughter's well -being as she enters puberty and starts to go through, and and we'll start to to experience like, like kind of sexual relationship dynamics, but I am also keenly aware, mostly because Hayley told me, um, am also keenly aware that, like, you get in the way, there's gonna be some fucking creepo who's gonna be like, "Well, I got an apartment with three of my buddies and you can come move in with

0:07:30 Thomas: Yeah. Yikes.

0:08:27 Tom: Me," and then what and that's something that's super true for girls that is just not true in general for boys. You

0:08:28 Thomas: Yep. So true yeah

0:08:34 Eli: I think if we admitted to ourselves that we don't want anyone to fuck our kid, and that's okay, that's not an impulse you're supposed to want, you just have to keep it privately, right, you don't want any stranger to fuck your kid. I don't want anyone, some random lady in the world I I don't want any I want everyone to leave my perfect, beautiful little boy alone, and someday he's gonna be like, "This is Ashley," and I'm gonna be like, "Oh, hi, Ashley, I've spent the last 18 years of my life loving this boy with my whole heart, but now he's known you for three and a half weeks and you're gonna give him an over the pants heger during the Hulk '97?" So welcome to the fucking family, absolutely not, and here's the, like, because

0:08:48 Thomas: But

0:08:53 Tom: Only want non-strangers to fuck your kid Eli is that your

0:09:23 Eli: That's where the that's where the gun comes from, right, the gun is not like, "I'll keep my daughter," it's like, "Get the fuck away from my family," which I completely understand, right, I, I would never, I, no,

0:09:24 Tom: There's a lot in that by the way you

0:09:36 Thomas: No, because no, because they don't do that with their sons, it's entirely a gendered thing I know you are, I know you are Eli, I know you are, but that is not where that comes from for anyone else yeah how did your dad deal with you seeing other men

0:09:44 Tom: Are yeah that's because you and your dad were dating so like you kind of see it different

0:09:40 Eli: I'm an equal opportunity offender. I just say, yeah, I not great. Let me tell you not great, can I wear a shirt that says like, because first of all, I was, I made a collection because I knew we were going to do this episode. I made an episode of Dad Plus Gun t -shirts that I found online that I would like to read just one or two of them to you.

0:09:59 Tom: Oh

0:10:12 Eli: So this I really think about quite a lot guns don't kill people with with pretty daughters kill people yep

0:10:07 Thomas: Oh yes yes please oh that's the best this is a great idea you oh

0:10:08 Tom: My god oh god oh no with Only pretty daughter, everything about that is more problematic than the last part of that, Jesus

0:10:27 Thomas: God

0:10:27 Eli: Guns don'T KILL PEOPLE DADS WITH PRETTY DAUGHTERS KILL PEOPLES there's like 200 of those on amazon right

0:10:28 Thomas: Yeah this is a major mainstream thing. It is comfortable sitcom material, this this thing god like

0:10:34 Eli: Yeah

0:10:35 Tom: Christ yeah yes yep yep, absolutely yeah this is canon now, this is cannon, it's literally canon, it's actually threatening someone with a cannon

0:10:44 Eli: This yeah this

0:10:48 Thomas: There's one with a cannon where he's like, "I'm gonna shoot my candidate," is that what you mean, cannons don't kill people, dads who have cannons as a hobby and have daughters kill, kill people.

0:10:49 Tom: Yeah

0:10:52 Eli: One this This, this one, I love it because it's, it's got a bunch of different fonts, and also the message is deeply complex, which I really think is important. "Before you date my daughter," in all pink, like beautiful script, "know this, I'm a dad with a gun," a shovel, and, and then it goes back to the pink script. It is bringing the script of the daughter back, which, which really, like, new criticism, this really equates the daughter and a backyard, "before you Date my daughter.

0:11:32 Eli: Know this, I'm a dad, a gun, I'm a dad with a gun, a shovel, and a backyard," but the backyard and the daughter in the same font. Yes.

0:11:33 Thomas: The backyard's gendered. Yeah.

0:11:31 Tom: Both wait because they're both property because they're both property

0:11:40 Thomas: Oh, wow.

0:11:40 Eli: Yes Mm-hmm this one this says "Psycho Dad because I have pretty daughters." Okay, these shirts all declare "I want to fuck my daughter," right, like, there's no No other reading of these.

0:11:44 Thomas: That's, nailed it. Oh

0:11:45 Tom: Jesus this is some serious Ivanka kind of language right, like yeah I find my daughter pretty, huh, what the fuck

0:12:04 Eli: Yeah.

0:11:57 Thomas: Boy. Oh boy. I, are we telling people that Eli wanted to name the show? No one fucks my daughter but me.

0:12:11 Eli: If they didn't see it when they clicked the episode, Thomas, then I've already been...

0:12:15 Tom: Whoa

0:12:14 Thomas: You quit the show. Oh God. That may, that may be the name. That may be the name. You've made the joke work well enough with this content, then maybe that is, we'll see, unless we, that gets us kicked off of iTunes I don't know you

0:12:23 Eli: It's important. Here's Here's Another One. This is Another One." I couldn't believe this was real. I almost bought it. I literally almost bought this shirt.

0:12:36 Thomas: Should buy it just for, like, even though you only have Max, that would be even funnier, god

0:12:39 Eli: Yeah. The only thing more amazing than my daughter is my aim. Wow! Think about it. Really think about the people who

0:12:51 Thomas: I I would love to do a TV show or a skit where like, am, you home a girl and my mom like gives her the third degree of like, "You better not fuck my son, I'll fucking, I'll, I'll bury you," know, like, it's, it's just such a gendered thing, nobody's, never happens, short of maybe Eli, who, who just doesn't want anyone to fuck his kid

0:12:52 Tom: Awesome message

0:13:12 Eli: Will be wearing that t -shirt. Yes, absolutely.

0:13:14 Thomas: Like a mom with a gun being like, "Don't you dare, don't she fucking dare" oh, it's so weird, but

0:13:20 Eli: Don't you dare fuck my son. Oh, this insane because it's so long. Listen to this. And I'm not making this up, by the way. You can buy this on Redbubble, all right? Here's the shirt. "Yes, I'm a spoiled daughter, but not yours. I am the property of a freaking awesome dad." Dad, he's a bit crazy and scares me sometimes but he knows more than he says, thinks more than he speaks, and notices more than you realize, he loves you, he loves me so much and if you mess with me, the beast in him will awake, and they'll never, I swear to god, I'm gonna send you guys a picture because I promise

0:13:32 Thomas: Bubble what

0:13:40 Tom: What what, what

0:13:40 Thomas: The this what what the no

0:13:52 Tom: Is not on this shirt there's

0:13:54 Thomas: This is not real, this is never it's this is, there's chapter chapter two

0:14:02 Eli: Yes

0:14:02 Tom: No way this is on how big do you have to be to wear this shirt, this

0:14:06 Thomas: Epilogue.

0:14:06 Eli: I, the beast, and him will wake, and they'll never find your body, yes, he bought me this shirt, I'm sending it to you, I'm sending you guys this shirt. It comes, here's the fucking, here's the worst part, are you ready, do you know what, you, you choose when you choose the size of this shirt, you choose the size, and then you choose if it says daughter or girlfriend, those are the two choices it's the exact same word, just replaced with yes I'm a

0:14:07 Thomas: Yeah. Still

0:14:15 Tom: What holy

0:14:19 Thomas: Going. Is this still going?

0:14:30 Thomas: Oh boy. That's a, that

0:14:35 Tom: Shit wait a minute, you can choose it as girl, and then does it change dad to boyfriend? Whoa it

0:14:36 Thomas: Says a lot. Oh my God.

0:14:36 Eli: Yes yes I am a spoiled, spoiled, I just said, you guys, the girlfriend version, but there's the dad version, is on the same page, "Yes, I'm a spoiled daughter, but not yours, I'm the property of a freaking awesome dad, he's a bit crazy, it scares me sometimes," why would they put that part and scare, if someone said, "and scares me sometimes," I would start to make a plot on how to poison you with that person, oh yeah

0:14:55 Tom: Scares me sometimes holy fuck, holy, the whole, like, idea that, like, your daughter's sexuality as, oh, I mean, the marriage industry teaches it, like, why does it, why does a man walk his daughter down the aisle to hand off his property to the husband, like it's a, like it, the traditionality of it, like, plays as very sweet, but the symbolism of that is not subtle at at all. Like, it's not even remotely subtle.

0:15:20 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:15:31 Eli: Yeah.

0:15:31 Thomas: Would you guys, oh, did you guys ever do the, ask the, wife's dad? Oh, Tom, I, there was a, there is such a, I I'll be honest. I was white knuckling that one, Tom. I was, I was I thought you were going to be like, oh, of course that's a charming thing to go.

0:15:32 Tom: No, that's crazy. No. That's insane. You thought I would do that?

0:15:38 Eli: For permission to oh yeah no I was 100 sure Tom was gonna say I'm

0:15:48 Thomas: I don't know. I thought maybe your first marriage. I don't know. I don't know, man.

0:15:49 Tom: No, no.

0:15:54 Thomas: I know.

0:15:52 Eli: I'm amazed you didn't do that

0:15:54 Tom: Are you serious? No way.

0:15:56 Thomas: No,

0:15:54 Eli: Time I'm a I'm surprised that his wasn't the only answer you cared about. I

0:16:00 Thomas: It was. I don't know. I could almost see like a younger Eli. I guess you married pretty old Eli. I could see a younger ElI maybe. I don't know. I' m not sure.

0:16:02 Tom: You're crazy. No way. No no no way.

0:16:07 Eli: First girlfriend's dad was really strict, um, she wanted me to ask permission to date her from him before, but we were like school girlfriend, boyfriend, but we wanted to go on a date, so I went to the house, and I remember just thinking, because we werelike 15, I remember thinking, like, yeah, but I could kick this guy's ass, can't I just kick this guy's ass, like, is that enough? I know we're doing a weird fuck fight, can't we just... can I fuck him? Like, what is the... what what are the exceptions to this policy? Yeah. And I remember, because God, I feel so bad for him, because he was...

He was actually a very nice man after we broke up, um, came to the house, my first girlfriend's dad, and my dad answered, and he was like, "I want to talk to Eli, man to man." My dad was like, "Get the fuck off my property, man, what the fuck are you doing?" He's like, "Well, I think he and I need to..." My dad was like, "I will murder... I have a gun and a shovel and he scares me a little bit sometimes. I don't know what the fuck, God,

0:16:18 Thomas: Jesus Christ. Yeah.

0:17:13 Eli: I remember that being

0:17:09 Thomas: He put on the shirt your dad busted out the shirt and furthermore, he's like, you might want to get your reading glasses, and the other dad has to spend like a, like in like 30 minutes, like, okay, and therefore wherefore I am a crazy dad fucking like the Constitution

0:17:19 Tom: Yeah do you have a do you have a spark notes for that shirt? That's a lot. I don't, is there a TLDR for this fucking shirt?

0:17:26 Eli: It's there though I sent it to you guys

0:17:30 Thomas: Yeah can he be like, "Hey, can I put a bookmark on this and finish it later?"

0:17:33 Tom: Jesus.

0:17:37 Eli: I'm gonna add this to my Chrome re

0:17:39 Thomas: Yeah yeah, it's just, I gotta go to work. I know, you know, like, I'll finish it, like, I'm... consider me intimidated, I just, I can't read all this right now, do you have an audiobook of this shirt?

0:17:39 Eli: Yeah

0:17:41 Tom: Fucking

0:17:49 Thomas: Oh God, I okay but for real, Tom, I'm kind of relieved that that is... that is an old-fashioned thing you're an old fashioned guy well

0:17:49 Eli: If we

0:17:48 Tom: Fucking hell I don't read any shirts that are longer than my commute, so I can't get to that little little much, no I would never in my life have I ever looked at a woman as property. That's fucking horrifying.

0:18:06 Thomas: I don't look, there are plenty of ways that people go, go along with traditions when they don't really feel that way. And I think that can be one of them. I think, here's what I think. The asking the father for permission, to me, is a fucking red flag. Like, if you're in a hetero relationship and the dude wants to ask, like, of his own accord wants to ask the dad for permission, I say get out of that immediately and don't marry that person. However, there's going to be people who will respond to this and like, "Oh, it's just the charming thing to do as a polite dude." And go, and yeah, probably, like, I get, I get there's some amount of people go along with traditions because they're fucking their traditions, but like, come on, that's fucking creepy as shit, that that signal that they don't think you can make your own decisions. Right? I mean, doesn't, isn't, how does that not, what that signals?

0:18:07 Tom: Yeah yes yeah I've also never had, I don't know about, like, I, I've always gotten along well enough with family, you know, but it's not been like, not my family, you, that's not something I would, like, I wouldn't be like, "Oh, I gotta, I gotta check in with you," Hayley's dad, and, like, like, Hayley's dad and I, we get along fine, but like, our lives are completely independent, you know what I mean, like, and the same has always been true, but

0:18:56 Thomas: Yeah I you're older, let's face it, you, you, you remember facts of life. So

0:19:26 Tom: Even but I'm saying like, even when I was 17, even when I was 17, my, my, my ex's parents were not an important part of my life and they were they were never an important part of my life. They were nice enough people. I'd get together on holidays, you, they were not in my life, they were not a, they were not a factor.

0:19:27 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's interesting.

0:19:47 Eli: Could change the culture so that you don't have to pretend to be friends with your wife's dad, I think everyone involved, like, if we can just do, like, a big meeting, like, all the men huddle up everybody takes a knee I

0:19:59 Thomas: That's nice. My wife, I have to say that my wife's dad is super cool. I love my wife. Dad. He closer to him by far than either of my parents. I to put that on the record.

0:20:03 Eli: Wife's, that is also super cool, that's love of my wife's tattoo, he doesn't want to be my friend. He knows what happens. He doesn't want to do my friend, he has no interest. He's not, we could just give him a break. I'm sorry, there's an emergency.

0:20:10 Thomas: This is. Yep.

0:20:23 Eli: It's a related shirt that I need to read to you. I'm a spoiled child was your first mistake. I'm spoiled granddaughter granddaughter of a crazy grandpa. He's also a grumpy old man. He, this, line harants me. I think about it every day and you will too. He is a grubby old man, he was born in February, he has anger issues, and a serious dislike for stupid people.

0:20:27 Thomas: Yeah,

0:20:35 Tom: What what how is this all still still on one board

0:20:39 Thomas: So verbose, they're

0:20:50 Tom: In february you've

0:20:53 Thomas: Is this, is so, this can't be real, this is such a thing, this is so niche, come on his

0:20:56 Eli: I'm gonna say I will, I will be sending you this as soon and

0:20:58 Tom: Got where is my link what

0:20:59 Thomas: Blood type is negative, like that

0:21:02 Eli: A serious

0:21:03 Tom: The fuck

0:21:03 Eli: Dislike for stupid people, you hurt me and they'll never find your body. Yes, he bought me this shirt, and I am sending you the link now, just as, as proof that this is real, you guys will see, this is also another shirt you can buy, yeah

0:21:16 Thomas: Okay just gonna question from a marketing or even going along with their perspective, why the "Yes, he bought me this shirt" isn't a stronger argument, if you're like, no, he didn't buy me the shirt, I bought this shirt because he's, that, you know, like he's not fucking scary, that I want to have done this of my own accord, I don't know why that's a weird addition, but maybe it's more of the mentality of like, they're just in charge of you, yeah yeah fuck

0:21:37 Eli: I you know how they say the minds of fish are unknowable, I feel like the minds the, the minds of the people who buy these shirts and enjoy these shirts are

0:21:45 Thomas: Isn't that true I it's

0:21:46 Tom: This is real, I'm looking at this shirt, I can't

0:21:49 Thomas: Not it can't be real, this is Chuck Tingle this is hold on, this is, there's, this is Chuck Tingle, right? They just make a more and more extreme version of this, and it's, some, we don't know who actually writes these, but look, I listened to that Citation Needed, I, I it, very interesting, right, am I, am I wrong, this can't be real, this

0:21:49 Eli: Also unknowable.

0:21:50 Tom: Believe that I'm looking at the shirt right now. It's got to be, there's nobody walking around with this shirt, there was, there's nobody ever, I, I can't, I don't want, I won't live in a world where somebody walks around on this shirt. I won't. I just won't do it. You can't make me do it. That's crazy.

0:22:19 Thomas: This is something though, like I know I'm a fucking SJW, but like this is a stance I strongly, strongly feel that we, we need to treat our daughters equally in this respect, we do, I mean, Tom, totally taking on board the talk that it's not, it's not precisely equal, but in terms of the ownership, like set set aside the danger, in terms of the ownership that this, this stupid, these fucking shirts represent, we need to as dads get rid of that and treat our children equally, if you, if you have, you know, children of multiple different genders

0:22:39 Tom: Yes I would go so far as to say we need to treat our daughters Equally, but very differently Like I think it's even more important I think we talked before. I think it's really important that we establish and maintain and foster that, like, deep sense of connection and trust that we have with our, with kids, it is so much more important that we have that clear and open line of communication, that we constantly reach into that and check on the health of that line of communication constantly with our daughters, because again, the stakes are so much higher, like if my sons don't tell me something, something, the stakes, stakes are lower, there's something, something is likely to be a lower stakes bad thing that's going to happen to them, but the stakes, if something bad goes, you know, something, something goes bad for my stepdaughter, and I will say, like on a personal level, my stepdaughter, she's so much more private, she's wildly crazily by nature, intensely private, like she is private about meaningless nothings, she she just is a private person, yeah So that gives me an intense amount of pause.

0:22:58 Thomas: Yeah yeah yeah it's just a disposition, yeah well But

0:24:04 Tom: Well

0:24:04 Thomas: But let me say this too, I, in addition to saying, you know, that's that's one way to keep our daughters safer, is to open that communication. I will also say, on the other way, I really believe this, in my experience, knowing a lot of different, you, from different backgrounds throughout my life and coming from a conservative area, I think, get our daughters with that mindset of you are a person who can make decisions and you get to be a full person and this is your decision to make. I think that makes them stronger.

I think in these households where the fucking the overbearing, the dads who buy them these fucking shirts And they're overbearying and their religion and all that, that communicates that they can't make these decisions. And I think that leaves them more susceptible. That leaves them most susceptible to another man entering their life And and them being more susceptible to feeling like that man can make decisions for them. If you're enabling, if you are open, if your treating them as a full person and letting and signaling throughout their life that they are autonomous, they get to make these decisions. I think that protects them,

0:24:33 Tom: Sure, yeah Yeah Yes I Agree, yes Yeah, completely agree with that, I mean, I couldn't agree any more. When people get used to being treated in a, a Certain way, they tend to replicate that treatment and other relationships, because it might not even be preferable, but it's known it's comfortable. Not because it's good.

0:25:13 Thomas: Especially when you're young. Especially when you are young. I mean, I say it every time, we normalize stuff so easily and if you raised with that from a very early age, totally. Totally.

0:25:23 Tom: Yes. Yes, yep. Yep. Yep, yep. So yep, so I I couldn't agree more. I mean, I think also that if you treat people with a level like if you treat your daughter with a Level of distrust, and that's That's what's built into that. It's not just like hyper vigilant protectionism, which is nonsense. And it's not just a sense of personal ownership, but it's also a sense of like, I don't trust you. I don't trust you to make good decisions, even though we don't trust our kids to make good decisions because they're fucking kids. They're not supposed to be making good decisions. Not capable of doing that, but you can't express to them that distrust.

0:26:02 Thomas: Yeah.

0:26:02 Tom: You can't express to them that infantilization that we oftentimes associate with how we treat girls specifically as it relates to their own personal bodily and sexual autonomy, like you can't do that shit, because as soon as you do that, they're gonna push back on it, they're, that's gonna have a paradoxical effect. I'm, I'm confident of That in

0:26:21 Thomas: Or they will internalize it and be, that on. I totally couldn't agree more.

0:26:23 Tom: Yeah out

0:26:26 Eli: At all the dead shirts that I have to read you.

0:26:28 Tom: Jesus.

0:26:29 Eli: There's so many dead shirt what's that another dead shirt you request uh one says warning, the whole thing's like a label, label, or a sign, warning, do not touch my tools or my daughter. Yep.

0:26:27 Thomas: Oh my God. Yeah, feel, feel free to pepper them in. Yeah feel free.

0:26:42 Thomas: God. Come on. Oh, it's so real. It's too real though. We know these dudes. Let me tell you this. Let, Let me, let me tell you, you this. I probably too open and honest about stuff. I hope nobody, if any of my friends or family or anyone ever listens, sorry, I've tried to anonymize stuff. I have a friend who comes from the mindset of, "Hey, you know, Thomas, don't aren't you gonna like be that, that kind of shotgun dad because, you know, know how shitty dudes are and you know how like they just want you, thing, they're just like super gross and that make you want to have those impulses kind of thing." And like, I want to sit with that and like think about it, and I'm curious what your thoughts on that are, because I mean, it is true, like honestly, let's be real, we were all dudes in our teens and like, yeah, yeah, I mean, that's kind of true. Um, that sit with you guys? Like you that, know how shitty are, dudes.

0:26:43 Tom: What, that's Oh, my God, but

0:26:50 Eli: But You brought this up, I let me generalize, right, because I don't want to make it just about daughters because I don't have a daughter, but I still struggle with this. I struggle with how shitty people are. And joking about figs and hammocks aside, my son needs to navigate the world, right? He needs to navigate a world full of people who will be unkind to him, who will be mean to him, who will break his heart, who will not love him back the way he loves him, who may abuse him emotionally, verbally, even sexually or physically, right. Right. And I really struggle with that. I really struggled with the fact that like, on the one hand, that is living life is exposing yourself to those dangers. And on the other side is absolutely not. I am a dad. I'm a dad, crazy is a doctor. I was born in February and I will never, like, cause

0:28:29 Thomas: Thinking about that. What does that mean? What does not mean my

0:28:30 Eli: I was born, yeah

0:28:31 Tom: That's it that I don't even care what that means, Thomas, that is now my new line, that's it, that's I'm just gonna tell people when I was born, I'm gonna look them in the eye and I'm born in March.

0:28:34 Eli: I was just

0:28:40 Thomas: His first prom date. I was born in February. You fucking scumbag. I wanted to be so confused. He'll be so confused that he'll be more scared.

0:28:40 Eli: So you know, I was born and raised yeah cause

0:28:49 Tom: Maybe. That's the maybe, that's the purpose of the line, is just to throw in something, something random and confusing. It's like, distracts them, it's like, it's mental juking, you know, they're just

0:28:51 Thomas: Yeah, just pure confusion. Yeah. Want to tell you something. I use a double Windsor knot when I tie my tie. What? You know what it means.

0:29:05 Eli: I that's more in their head than the shotgun bullshit, cause like I remember, my sister has a boyfriend right, and I remember there was a weird impulse when we met to do a thing right and she and her and her boyfriend have sex we know that they're having sex and they have a good consensual sex because I checked in on it, no

0:29:17 Thomas: Yep. Yep, yep. Good. You know how good it is?

0:29:26 Tom: No you're not supposed to know that

0:29:27 Thomas: I don't need to know how good it is, I don't think, yeah

0:29:30 Tom: Yeah

0:29:29 Eli: I don't but you, you want to make sure that it's good, that everyone's being treated well right on a scale from one to Thomas, how good is he, is what I asked, and she said

0:29:31 Tom: Healthy yeah right

0:29:33 Thomas: Okay, not non non -abusive non-abusive yeah sure scale of one to Thomas as a 13 year old I

0:29:42 Eli: Said and she said one, because everyone's at a one compared to 13 year old Thomas, as we clarified a couple weeks ago on the show, but

0:29:51 Thomas: Was born in February, what can I say, I

0:29:54 Eli: I, I checked in, I checked in with her when I assumed they first became sexually active, because she was like, hey, I want to get on the pill, and I wasn't like, I wonder if periods are being difficult, so I was just like, yeah, we, whole family was, was obviously super cool about it, and I told her you

0:30:07 Tom: So we all had a meeting together and

0:30:09 Thomas: She's like, look, you have to tip your pharmacist, you better tip your fucking pharmacist, I

0:30:09 Tom: Uh

0:30:11 Eli: Have to, yeah at least, um, I remember having that moment of being like, should I, first of all, her boyfriend's like 10 times my size, so the there was also, there was the implication that I was supposed to intimidate him, but what, what the fuck, hello, I have quadruple your Twitter following, so if you mess with my, little cyber bully the shit out of your, you're out of school now, but when you're back, if you have younger siblings who are in school, I'll tweet about them, I don't fucking, but I remember that having the thing, but also, like the very,

0:30:24 Thomas: Will dox you, you piece of shit you ever had your thumb disappeared, you piece of shit

0:30:55 Eli: Was this your card? I was born in February, motherfucker.

0:30:56 Thomas: Yeah it won't be your card, it'll never be your card if you cross my sister, yeah

0:31:02 Eli: But at the same time, there is that very real impulse, right, that I had, right, when she was like, got on the pill, and we were cool, right, we were super good, said all the right things, did all the right things, but then inside my head I was like, ah, man, don't, don't I used to walk around parks with her, and you were, some guy, get out, scoot get, get, get, like when there's raccoons in the trash, trash, like, making loud noises, banging the lids together, I

0:31:16 Thomas: Yeah yeah go on get, yeah Yeah.

0:31:26 Tom: You do know, think that one thing we, we be teaching our daughters in order to keep them safe, right, because it comes, it always comes down to the same the same impulse, right, the same impulse Max has, and I think this goes for everybody, I think it's, I think these are just more urgently true for daughters than for sons, is I think we do need to teach daughters specifically the value of audacity. I think that girls are specifically socialized in many ways to be less comfortable being audacious than they need to be in order to safely navigate sphere. I think that girls need to feel entirely comfortable saying, absolutely not. This is ridiculous. I know my value. I'm fucking out of here. Look people in the eye and just be fucking audacious, like we have to teach girls that it is okay to not demure, that it is okay to be and to be loud, and to not de-escalate all

0:31:38 Thomas: Mm hmm. Mm. Boy, that's

0:32:29 Tom: Of the time when it's safe to do so, when it is safe to so

0:32:30 Thomas: A tough one that. Yeah, I was going to say I I think it's a good time to bring in some of the comments from the friend zone episode that I think are really good, which is, and it's not that this, I don't think this contradicts what we're saying, but it's another element that that we didn't really mention, which is that the friend zone for women can very much be a safety thing of like, uh don't know what's going to happen if I outright reject this person's advances, can I try to do it in the most like friendly, nice way possible, even though I probably, like, maybe maybe they even suck and you don't want to be their friend, but you feel like, as a woman, you're like, I just, as a safety issue, like, oh no, you know, we're great friends, you know, like, that is very real, and by the same

0:32:33 Tom: Yes

0:33:11 Eli: Wouldn't want to ruin our friendship because friends don't murder each other, that's the old saying friends don't murder friends, yeah

0:33:16 Tom: Right yeah right

0:33:13 Thomas: Yeah and by that same token, I, I mean, I, you mentioned it, but I, that's a hard thing, because I, I imagine it's not always safe to be that audacious, you know, and I don't know how, you know, when it may or may not be, and it sucks that that's, I want to create a better world, but I also, as we've said time and time again, we also want our kids to be able to live safely in this world, and I think being realistic about the dangers of men, um, a really hard balance, is this, it's something I genuinely struggle with, you

0:33:37 Tom: Yeah demure is not, has not fixed the problem, I'm not saying that in every circumstance being audacious is the answer to the problem either. I agree with you. It's tough, man. There's like, but

0:33:54 Thomas: Mean we know, I mean, who, it's hard to know how many times a would have been something, would have have bad happened to her, except she fucking expertly, you know, fucking to the man's ego in a way that didn't trigger these, I don't know. I think it's almost impossible to know that data because

0:34:03 Tom: True. De -escalated that situation. Completely I, agree with your, I hear what you're saying. I just think that like we have we taught women the value of acquiescence socially, and that is not a world that serves women well. And I think that we need to take a step back from that and try to teach that balance. I think you to your point, you've also got to intersperse that with some very practical fucking safety advice. Like

0:34:36 Thomas: Yeah. What struggle with this balance, because you have seen the memes, and I think they are good and correct memes, of stop teaching my daughter not how not to get raped, start teaching your sons not to rape, and totally completely fucking valid, I get it 100, I am going to teach my son not to fucking be like that, I, as best I can, but I also will teach Phoebe how to do her best to be safe, you know, and I think that's, it's such a tough balance, because, like, there are people who, we, it's a given that there are fucking people who would steal your shit. If they could, you know, there are people who in the world, I don't think it's an endorsement of them or something to say, yeah, look, I know, I know it sucks, but watch your drink, watch your fucking drink in a bar. You don't know, you know? It's, it's no good. If my daughter gets roofied, it is no fucking good to say well, that person's mother should have taught them not to roofie. That doesn't do anything. Thing sure

0:35:04 Eli: Right

0:35:04 Tom: Yeah yep yeah

0:35:19 Eli: And it's not stealing right right and when it, it, when comes to other crimes and stuff, and look, this is a response to rape apology, and we acknowledge that and that's bad but we don't do this with other crimes, right? We're not like, don't tell me not to to, get robbed. Tell your son to not rob me. It's like, no, you, we teach both, right.

0:35:38 Thomas: Of course and it's valid as that absolutely yeah yeah yeah we do, yeah

0:35:50 Eli: We teach both because there are robbers and we're aware that there are robbers. And

0:35:52 Tom: Yes.

0:35:55 Thomas: The very, the very valid point of the meme is, we don't, we we haven't taught consent well historically, and that's totally totally valid completely valid

0:36:01 Tom: Right

0:36:01 Eli: Exactly. We haven't taught people not to rob when it comes to sex. And that's where that pushback comes from. But more More importantly, here's the next shirt. Five things you should know about my daddy. One.

0:36:03 Thomas: Yeah Jesus Christ five five. I hope

0:36:13 Eli: Five things he should know about my dad. One. Is an excellent carpenter. Two, he has a hammer.

0:36:18 Thomas: He once

0:36:19 Tom: These hold on these shirts require way more literacy than should be assumed or

0:36:22 Thomas: Turned water into wine. Yeah.

0:36:25 Eli: Two, he has an axe. He has the hammer and a saw. Three, he has anger issues.

0:36:30 Tom: He wouldn't be an excellent carpenter, what

0:36:33 Eli: Four, I am his princess. Five, he is a crazy daddy, and I'm not afraid to use him, that's

0:36:32 Thomas: Oh my God. Look,

0:36:41 Tom: In the actual fuck, the, I love how so many of these shirts reference like the emotional anger and volatility of like, like their protector, like what are

0:36:52 Eli: A big part of it

0:36:54 Thomas: I know our scholastic achievement numbers are not good in this country. I now think they should actually be worse, but for the fact that all of the South has to spend hours reading these shirts, like, they've just gotten so much reading comprehension in from these fucking shirts are

0:37:06 Tom: You looking at my boobs, no, I've been reading your shirt for the last 20 minutes it's not, I it's

0:37:13 Eli: 26 minutes

0:37:15 Thomas: You looking at my boobs, my stomach, my vagina, my leg my knee, my ankles, my, no, I'm reading the tapestry that's fucking, that you're wearing

0:37:23 Tom: You gotta put the shit on a nightgown are you kids a fucking illuminated manuscript

0:37:24 Eli: My other my other, should is the footnotes like infinite jets, you'll have to see that some other time, here's another one, this one I like because there's one, like, turn of phrase in it that I think about quite a bit, don't mess with me, my daddy is crazy, he is a laborer, he is a labor, and he Will slap you so hard even Google won't be able to find you a

0:37:29 Tom: What what, what is

0:37:49 Thomas: Laborer oh my

0:38:00 Tom: Happening in that shirt, I feel you could just do Eli, going back to school, I am going to get a fucking masters in semiotics just to parse these fucking shirts there's

0:38:01 Thomas: God, oh

0:38:04 Eli: Lot, just

0:38:08 Thomas: Jesus it's

0:38:14 Eli: To parse these, yep

0:38:16 Thomas: Brilliant, it's, it's, they're, they're so brilliant brilliant yeah, what

0:38:18 Tom: So much here, this is all All of society in, in a, on a fucking screen print.

0:38:21 Eli: Okay A crazy one, and I, you guys really need the picture for this one because the picture is an adult male fist doing a fist bump to a baby's fist in a golden frame, and here's what the shirt says I'll kill for my daughter I'll I'll die for my daugher

0:38:39 Tom: Lot of fisting. This,

0:38:35 Thomas: Okay, where is this going no way, come on, what you're making this one up, no, there should, this should have been a game show where one of them, Eli has made up, we would never, okay, if we ever do a Dear Old Dads live show, that's a, that's a game we're doing.

0:38:57 Tom: This is it. This is it, or

0:38:58 Eli: Yeah I'll killed for my doughter, I'll died for my dotter, I'll cry for my Doughter, I am my daughter's keeper I'm

0:39:06 Tom: You just ran out of things that rhymed with cry and die. I got it. No. Yeah, I got it. Yeah.

0:39:08 Thomas: I love the, like, yeah, the one non sequitur one.

0:39:11 Eli: Sitting Yeah.

0:39:11 Tom: I'll vie for my daughter.

0:39:13 Thomas: Yeah. Oh my God. But like, along I the lines of the question I asked earlier though, I want to do my best to find the line between, I do want my daughter to have realistic understanding of where dudes are, especially at that young age, you know? Know, but I don't want to do so in a way that will completely jade her to men in a, you know what I mean?

0:39:14 Eli: Sure.

0:39:40 Eli: Statistically.

0:39:40 Thomas: Like, I don'T want to just be like, ah, they're all fucking pigs and not, but like, I do kind of want to be like、 you know, they'RE all pigs, like, it's just the tone, you KNOW, slightly, yeah,

0:39:48 Eli: Honey. Everyone's a pig, right? I think of it like the way my parents talked to me about driving with other teenagers, right? When I got to be like 14, my friends started to get learner's preference and licenses. My dad sat me down and he was like, "Hey, you will never ride in a car with other teenagers, and here's why. Statistically, this is the thing that kills you. Right now, for the next four years, the most likely thing to kill you is you and another teenager in a car, so you can't do it. And I know you'll be mad at me, and I know it's gonna suck a lot of times, but at the end of it, statistically, you will be more alive than the dead you might have been, statistically." And I think that's, that is kind of the conversation to have, is like, hey, these are, these are just the freaking odds, right? This is just the way of the world.

0:40:26 Thomas: Yeah.

0:40:35 Eli: And I, yeah,

0:40:35 Thomas: Oh, I DON'T even mean like Danger, though, I mean, like, just a typical dude, um, your boyfriend might like pressure you too much, and, you know, just stuff like, not even like you know, like, you're going to get murder killed, just stuff that I think is going to happen in completely relationships with young women.

0:40:45 Eli: That

0:40:52 Tom: I, I, I, would say, like, and I wonder, and I'm not saying this to be shitty, but I wonder if that desire to not completely Jade a daughter against boyfriends or whatever, like by sort of like worrying about how to warn her about those realities isn't another piece of that sort of like male to male protectionism, because yeah, because I mean you wouldn't do this in any other, if it was not men that were the danger, you would not worry in any another way about being real and being up front and being statistically and emotionally accurate

0:41:10 Eli: We talked about last episode

0:41:13 Thomas: I really don't think so.

0:41:25 Thomas: I think no, I think I would. I of strongly reject that. I think the key is that It's a situation. I'm trying to think of an analogy, but it's, it's a situation where it is both a thing you're seeking out that is very good and that you're inevitably going to seek out. But it's also a thing that is dangerous. It'snot so as simple as, like, oh, another dangerous thing that you wore on your kid. Like, I'm trying to think of what an analogy would be. I think it's valid to not want to try to take the pleasure out of, you young and in love and all that stuff by just constantly bad mouthing, you dudes that your daughter might date or might, you are cool.

0:41:27 Tom: Okay yeah

0:42:00 Thomas: You know what I mean?

0:42:00 Tom: But I yeah Yeah, I do. I do, and I hear what you're saying. I don't know to badmouth anybody specifically in order to give real and accurate and sit down and let's talk and hear some realities about dating as a girl. And this will probably come better from other girls, other women who can speak to their personal experiences and relate in those ways. But I think those conversations are pretty urgent. Like, they're like way more. I guess like I would err on the side of that conversation is more important and more urgent than protecting her from, you know, like not falling in love at an early age or, you know, yeah, right.

0:42:10 Thomas: Yeah, I'm just saying finding the balance. I didn't say not doing the

0:42:40 Tom: No, no, I know. I'm speaking, I'm saying like, I would air on the, on one side pretty heavily. Like Tom would air pretty heavily on the the side of like, hey, you know what, if like, if you're scared of dudes for the first five years of your sexual life, like, okay, I, I would be okay with that, I think dudes are scary.

0:42:41 Thomas: One. Yeah, right. Right. Sure.

0:42:56 Thomas: I would want to make Phoebe appropriately skeptical of the things dudes will say because I know I've, you know, I've been there, like, dudes will say whatever something, you know, at a certain, but without without making it so she

0:43:08 Eli: Uh, just run all the poetry by daddy. Okay. Oh, you, you're the light of the world. That's the sun, honey. That is the fucking sun. Perhaps guys, perhaps we could find the balance by wearing this next shirt.

0:43:14 Thomas: Oh yeah, oh,

0:43:28 Eli: My daughter is my baby today, tomorrow, and And always, if you hurt her, and then it's a picture of a fist in a policeman's shield, I will hurt you. I don't care if she is one or 50. I will defend and protect her with, all caps, all bold, all my strength.

0:43:37 Thomas: My god, what, Jesus, Christ, I

0:43:49 Tom: Wow, wow, do one more shirt, wrap it up with one more shirting, lie, bring,

0:43:52 Eli: I Okay, I, of reverse things, and say, okay, but what is it like for sons? Because maybe there's also, like, some weird son stuff, and maybe it'd be a good idea to see the sort of toxicity that men put up with. So, son is super awesome. He has anger issues, and he's a bit crazy, but he knows more than he says, thinks more than He speaks and notices more More than you realize. And I'm the lucky one because I get to be his dad.

0:43:58 Thomas: What the this says so they borrowed that, what the, I, what, what, what what is the market for that shirt?

0:44:25 Tom: There's a lot of really specific niche fucking shirts for anger issues

0:44:28 Thomas: Yeah.

0:44:28 Eli: I have no fucking idea.

0:44:30 Thomas: But I, yeah, I guess I, I, just to reiterate, like, I really think my value system is that, like, back to that conversation, it's, it's interesting. I think Tom and I maybe differed on this, but I think sex is not maybe as dire a thing, as important as, like, dangerous a thing if it's done in a healthy way, you know, and I think it's important to recognize that for our daughters, as well as a society, that, like, it's actually okay if our daughters want to just have sex for the sake of having sex because it's fun, that's okay, and society needs to fucking realize that look,

0:45:01 Tom: Oh, I think so too, I do, I think so too, yeah,

0:45:04 Eli: See, here's what's interesting. I feel that like egalitarian effect of like, yeah, boys, girls, the same, but no, but no, the opposite. Boys, girls the same. But the answer is no. Nobody should fuck my son. Stay away. Stay away, Ashley. Stay away from my house. Okay, this is a brilliant idea, and I'm so glad you brought it up because, that, I don't know why, but I'm very comfortable with Arlo and Max ending up together because they're fucking each other, right, they're fuckin each other, I know, look, it's a heteronormative thing

0:45:18 Thomas: Is is it time for us to reveal that we're, our plan is for our sons to fuck each other, is it time for us to, yeah, exactly, hey,

0:45:38 Tom: Are you okay with that because I hear Arlo is pretty selfish. Fish. Oh,

0:45:39 Eli: No, look after the sun butter, he's gonna learn also, once he hits 13, the old Smith genetics will kick in, and there couldn't be a luckier boy on earth, there we go, yeah, and nothing will freak out though, like, weird heteronormative parents in the mommy groups more than us being like, look at them married, oh my god, is it, are they boyfriends, are they little boyfriends, or are they going on a little date, I

0:45:41 Thomas: No Arlo's an exquisite lover, yeah, yeah,

0:45:45 Tom: That's true, that's true,

0:45:52 Thomas: All well, we're announcing the pre-engagement of our sons, do you have a good shirt for this is there a good shirt for this one. Different

0:46:13 Eli: I have shirt right Here it says, um, this is a- this is shirt, I'm glad you brought up a final shirt here, it's, um, I am the son of a very good podcaster, he was born in September, he has crippling depression, and and some pretty severe

0:46:33 Thomas: Font. This one's in, this line's in pink font.

0:46:35 Eli: Yeah, this one's a big fun, then, then there's a buck holding this next set of lines in its mouth, but it's like just the head of the buck on a wall of, of a hunting lodge, and says, "He has pretty severe heart problems but he's working on them with medication and exercise. Mess with me and he'll cyber bully your dad." And yeah, he bought me this shirt while crying. Oh, okay, there's my alternate strength, can we just cry when the guy comes over, like, we'll be like that because this wait, I got, I solved it, guys, I solved, I solved, Tom, step away, way, do your own thing, but me and Thomas over here, we just figured it out, when the when the strangers come to, we'll be like, hey, let me, uh, let me talk to him outside for a second, and pull him outside, please don't fuck my daughter, man, please, I love her so much, please, can I just say, I would never fuck that guy's that

0:47:08 Thomas: Perfect. I know I will be. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We're sad dads.

0:47:33 Thomas: Sobbing. Just started sobbing into a shirt. Yeah yeah.

0:47:38 Tom: Wiping your nose on his collar, I

0:47:40 Eli: Could have been Angelina Jolie, and I would have been like, no, you got it it, man, I will not fight that, I would absolutely, all right, well, we figured it out, everybody, listeners, at home who were struggling with that, you're welcome. Just, uh, turn on the waterworks.

0:47:57 Tom: Have

0:47:51 Thomas: My other shirt is crippling depression.

0:48:00 Eli: All right. Gentlemen, before we go, what's the most detail-oriented ocean? The Pacific. Oh,

0:48:21 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:49:00 Eli: It was a perfect comedic moment, I let go. Thomas, the last episode, you had this beautiful thing where you were like, other, a, people love their kids just as much as I love mine. And there's this like beautiful moment of silence. And I wanted to be like, except for Tom,