DOD28: Creeped Out Women and Poisoned Children

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's crazy about nuts. I'm Tom Curry. I am joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:37 Thomas: Oh boy, oh

0:00:34 Eli: This is a goof -filled one everybody, get ready!

0:00:39 Thomas: Boy, ha ha ha,

0:00:42 Tom: This is maybe the feel -good episode you need. Should we release this right right around Thanksgiving, like when, you know, emotions are running high and people are looking over at their loved ones and here we go

0:00:45 Thomas: Oh dearie dear, oh, there's

0:00:46 Eli: Yes. Yes. Okay, so my first note is, kids with allergies. Silly, right? Um, I guess, should I lead with that, or?

0:00:59 Tom: You know

0:01:02 Thomas: Been enough time,

0:01:03 Tom: I'm not gonna segregate, I'm not gonna not send my kid with a peanut butter sandwich just because some snowflake can't hand, yeah, okay. All right, you've heard that shit though, you guys have heard that shit, I'm sure, right? Like the parents who, the parents who resent, resent having to make a minor dietary involuntary inconvenience that might murder another human being. They're like, "Why should I care?"

0:01:09 Eli: That's true. Of course!

0:01:11 Thomas: Oh

0:01:24 Eli: Well, now wait a second, we're allowed to present it, we are just not allowed to kill the child. Wild, let's let's not get crazy here, Thomas is gonna Thomas is gonna have his day in the sun, everyone's gonna be on his side, I just want to represent the other side fairly.

0:01:32 Tom: That's true.

0:01:38 Thomas: I Yeah, my poor son has now been attempted murdered twice, you know, in his life, in his young life, he's like a fucking opposition leader of the Russian government, like that, I, I seriously, I mean, it's been my, his, his sister tried to kill him

0:01:52 Tom: Somebody's smearing peanut butter on his underwear. Just yeah.

0:01:53 Thomas: Yeah yeah, on the door or whatever, what was that, like the door handle, they do that, um yeah no, his sister trying to kill him, I told that story, uh, think that was main show, right? At the hospital, yep. Yep, he survived that, you know, he's like fucking Rasputin, he's, you can't kill this kid and

0:01:58 Eli: Yeah yeah Manchester

0:02:03 Tom: Yeah. Next week, Thomas throws him into a lake and a gunny sack. I don't know.

0:02:13 Thomas: I feels like it would work, so I might as well, I'm a good parent, um, yeah, he was almost killed by his new school and, uh, it was the, this was, whoa, there's so much more too, um, Lydia had the the worst Friday in the history. Can I set up, they have those like Amazon wishlists or something, right? Can we, can the entire audience buy Lydia, like, I don't know, some chocolate or something, like it's, it's just the Friday she had. Listen to this, listen to this.

Okay. And by the way, as you guys already knew, but maybe the audience wouldn't know, I was gone. I was out of the country. I, I was in Manchester, uh, for QED, which was amazing. I would love to talk about that positively, but it's not, there's not the time or place. It was a great, great conference, is the best one. Go there next time, everybody. So I'm out of the country and I was eigentlich working for most of the fucking conference.

I don't know if you noticed, I was editing for most of the time, kind of suck, but it's okay. Uh, one of the times I was editing, I was hanging out in the kind of the bar, the kitchen area, waiting for a food order that would never come. It took, it took like an, an hour, and then it was terrible, but anyway, I

0:03:11 Thomas: Yeah,

0:03:11 Tom: It was a peanut butter sandwich fuck

0:03:13 Thomas: I get a call and I see it's a 916 number, which is the area code where I live, and I was like, ah, I guess I'll answer this, just even though I'm in a different country, but I think cell phones, it doesn't matter now, I was just like, all right, I'll enter it, whatever, and the person on the phone says, hi, yeah Yeah, Arlo had sun butter. I was like, what? He had sun better. Yeah, he's not doing well.

0:03:42 Thomas: And there's a lot of passive language going on. Yeah, like a

0:03:42 Tom: What what

0:03:45 Eli: That's What I was gonna say, they always tell you so and so ate blank, like, like they just wandered on Arlo in the fucking storage fridge with his hand wrist deep. Deep in the sun butter.

0:03:53 Thomas: Raccoon. Yeah.

0:03:56 Tom: Yeah like what of bullshit is that like he's not at the vending machine with his own money mistakes

0:03:59 Thomas: Fed. A sun butter sandwich. And I'm just like, what? Know, it takes, it takes your brain a minute to wrap your head around things like this, spoken a very passive voice. You know? I'm like, I'm not going to do that. I'm just like what is just, what's the, what is happening? You know? And she's like, yeah, he's, he threw up. He's not, I was like, well, oh my, wait, you, you hold on. You've fed him a sun butter sandwich is that what I'm understanding? And then there's a bunch and she's like, yeah, yeah.

0:04:05 Tom: Were made mistakes did eat one he did come across a sun butter sandwich he in the wild he actually she speared it from about 30 yards jesus

0:04:36 Thomas: Sun sandwich was but you know, just like the most passive voice. And I was like, not that's good. Like that is, he has a lot of allergies. I've talked about his allergies. Sunflower is his worst allergy. Literally his worst out. He did a contact, like he accidentally touched like a kid who had or something, you know, he didn't eat it, in back in his old school, and his face exploded like it like he turned into Elephant Man. It's it is terrifying if that's your kid. It is. I can't I I wish that on no one. It's absolutely terrifying.

0:04:53 Tom: Christ yeah I bet

0:05:08 Eli: Yeah. And should point out for the people who don't know, unlike most other nut allergies, sunflower is actually a very, very rare nut allergy. So it is often the allergy free option that schools provide. They're in all those like allergy safe treats that you buy at the grocery store. So basically Thomas's son is programmed to die while people try not to kill him.

0:05:23 Thomas: Exactly. Yeah. Which is great. But Yeah. You're

0:05:36 Tom: Like isn't a sunflower relatively easy to avoid it's not like like are more ubiquitous than sunflower like I right it if you're gonna have a deadly allergy to something at least at least it's sunflower like this is is something that actually should be easier to avoid

0:05:45 Thomas: Yeah. Um, think hear you, but peanut, peanuts are the ones everybody's looking for. So like if, yeah, if anyone's like, Oh, someone might have allergies. They're like, all right, keep them away from the peanuts. And that's actually literally what happened to skip to the end of the story. But yeah, you're Eli nailed it on the head. Sun butter was the first time you had that exposure was because they're like always allergic to a bunch of stuff. Let's do the sun butter, which by the way, for most people, for anyone with a peanut allergy, that's a fantastic alternative. Sun sun butter is great. I wish my son could have it. But um, one way or the other passive voice, a son, but a sandwich, a half, a half a sandwich with,

0:05:56 Tom: Aware of okay

0:05:57 Eli: Yeah.

0:06:26 Tom: Parachuted

0:06:27 Thomas: With his, yeah. With that just materialized. I don't know. It was like the Star Trek. Just somebody must've said like a sun butter sandwich. Oh, great. Well, you know, just popped into the thing and he ate it, um, so imagine I've seen my son's face explode into the elephant man when he was just around this, or maybe he touched it. And so I'm thinking, I'm not a doctor, I'm no fucking scientist, I don't know how anything works, but it feels like eating that would be bad. I'm, I'm like so right when I finally get to that, I'm like, okay, I'm out of the country, I need you to call, I, I will, I'll get Lydia on the phone, I'll, I'll have her call you, because I was like going into panic mode, like this doesn't sound good. He's already thrown up, like, I don't know, like, is this going to fucking, is ours insides going to just explode like a balloon? I don't fucking know, like, with that if what happens to his face happens to us insides, that sounds horrible.

So I'm going in panic mode. I get a hold of Lydia and she's in she is currently in a Target doing, doing some shopping, grabbing some stuff for the kids, maybe for Halloween or something, I don't know. And so she's like, oh my God, you know, we're doing this whole thing. And And then she messaged me. So she's trying to, like, get a hold of the daycare. She gets a hold on them. She's like, all right, I'm going to come over.

And in the meanwhile, I think she had already started telling me the beginning of what was happening to her in this very Target, which was, she's in the clothing section. And I think this little bit, maybe she, like I said, maybe he messaged to me just before I heard the Arlo stuff. She's in a kid's clothing section looking around, and a dude is kind of near her, kind of does the thing where it looks like maybe he's interested in the clothes she's looking at.

So she's like, I don't know, she kind of like moves away to another section. And then he kind of follows her a little bit more, and he's got nothing, he's not shopping, it seems, no, no items. And so he, and the answer, hey, how far along are you? She's like, oh, 32 weeks. And he says, oh, I dunno what that means. And she's like,

0:06:28 Tom: In from the sky

0:06:52 Eli: Worse right, yeah. What

0:06:53 Tom: Fucking hell right what what then why would you ask

0:08:19 Thomas: Yeah.

0:08:19 Tom: A question if you don't understand the answer

0:08:20 Eli: Is that, what are you, that 30 I

0:08:21 Tom: How do you not know what 32 means was he confused about the number 32 or what weeks are like I don't like it's impossible not to understand that answer what what what

0:08:21 Thomas: She's Like Oh, It's like, yeah, it's, no,

0:08:31 Eli: Don't Do division. I speak English. I actually memorized this phonetically, including this part. I have no idea what I'm saying right now.

0:08:37 Tom: What that's an insane thing to say like I know you're getting to another point but I just that is an insane answer what

0:08:45 Thomas: I'm getting to that same point, but more. Yeah. So Lydia, as I'm sure every woman living in the planet earth has, you know, is, is getting some, some instincts about this. Like, something's not right here. And he's like, oh. And so she says, well, It's like seven months. And then it's just kind of like, bye. You know, just leaves because she doesn't even grab what she was going to grab because it's, like, all right, I want to get away this guy. And he is kind of following her here and there. And that's when, you know, I think that's what I have called her and told her what's going on. So she is freaking out. This poor woman. Oh, my God. So she's freaking out! She's trying to handle the Arlo thing, she kind of forgets about the weird dude because, you know, her son has just been attempted murdered, and so she's

0:08:47 Eli: Wow.

0:08:48 Tom: Jesus

0:09:02 Eli: Presumptive Murder.

0:09:32 Eli: Shirt

0:09:32 Thomas: Going to like trying to figure out, and then she sees the guy again, she's tried to get out of the Target, and she sees the guy like hovering around the exit, no items, hasn't bought anything, hovering, very clearly doing the like looking at her but not looking at her thing, and so I told her, because we were on the phone, I was like, you know, there was a time in my life when I, I might've been like, yeah, it's probably fine. Now in my life, I'm like, call the U.S. military, I don't even care.

0:09:48 Tom: Christ

0:09:59 Thomas: Like I don't, I do. I'm no longer, if I don't give a shit, if everyone in the world tells me, Thomas, you overreacted, that was silly, I don't want my wife to get murder killed. I just don't, whatever it is, he was probably, who knows who he was or what he was doing. I have zero interest in my wife getting murder killed, so I'm telling her, please, please just tell someone, tell anyone, tell everyone at the Target, tell them what's happening, and she does, and maybe she was going to either anyway, I, you know, I don't know, but like I was just very insistent, like, please do not take any risks at all in this situation. And so she asked the checker, she's like, that man has been following me, like, can you, can somebody escort me out? And the checker's like, oh, we don't have any security, which is super cool that they just didn't have any, like, usually

0:09:59 Eli: Super Dope

0:10:39 Thomas: Super. Awesome.

0:10:40 Eli: Nice

0:10:40 Tom: Okay so you don't have security you don't have people that work there that can like you don't have some kid who like like runs the shopping carts like that just CAN WALK WHAT What the fuck?

0:10:40 Eli: What About You You're not Doing Your job

0:10:41 Thomas: Well, Yeah Well I, I don't blame this, this girl, she like, they, they should have a fucking security guard. Like that's the manager's fault for not. And so Lydia is like, I just don't, I don't know that guy. Like you need to do something like this. And I don't feel safe leaving. Like this guy's clearly following me. And she's like, all right, why don't you tell the other checker? That's like not doing anything, you know? And she was like, okay. So she goes to her, and that checker was like.

0:11:12 Eli: I'm On My 15, Rob Can save You, uh,

0:11:14 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, can you get murdered in 15 after my smoke break? Uh, all right.

0:11:20 Tom: Jesus.

0:11:20 Thomas: Yeah. Um, no, I, I.

0:11:19 Eli: Yeah, I'm Not clocking back in just to save your life, lady, okay.

0:11:26 Thomas: And so the other checker apparently was like maybe a little bit more receptive, and she's like, wait, you don't know that guy? And she's like, no. And she was like, oh, okay, I'm following, like, I'm coming with you, you know? And so she escorts Lydia out, and the guy does the like, uh, you know, like sees what's happening, was kind of, yeah. And there may have even been one more little encounter that I'm forgetting about, but like very clearly something was going on here. Who knows what? But uh, he, once he saw that she was being escorted, he kind of like backed off, and by the way, left the store with no items, didn't buy anything, wasn't fucking apparently doing anything there except bothering my wife, and

0:11:59 Eli: Loudly blowing through his lips while trying To whistle, just

0:12:01 Thomas: The Two things I don't understand, numbers and whistling. God, I gotta learn these things to be a more effective creep. And And so She's

0:12:11 Eli: Goes Home Crosses out. Introduced self for no reason to blonde pregnant woman. You did great today, Larry. You did great. They had had a security guard and he had kidnapped your wife, are they allowed to chase him out or do they have to let him go and call the cops?

0:12:21 Thomas: Like Boy, um, yeah, so. And And then keep in mind, from Lydia's standpoint, so he kind of disappears. She walks far away to her car with the person, at least. But then she's like, well, shit, now I don't know where he is. She's got to drive over to the daycare for her dying son, who's been, again, murder killed. And she's about to get murder killed, everybody. Why, is what did I do? Am I a dissident or something?

0:12:50 Eli: I going to say it does seem like there was sort of a simultaneous godfather -esque hit on your family going on.

0:12:56 Thomas: Yeah, did. Hey, Eli, you were with me on that night. Did you notice like any red laser on me at any time that was, you know, Jesus

0:13:02 Eli: No. Those hits I put out on your family didn't go super well, but that's the only thing I noticed.

0:13:09 Thomas: Christ? Rice.

0:13:10 Tom: It's so hard to find good help these days. That's the.

0:13:11 Eli: Thank you.

0:13:10 Thomas: Yeah. That's True. You shouldn't have used fiber, is the thing I've said. You know, like, I mean I know you tried to pay him double like you gave him ten dollars but it's still not gonna find you a good hit man I'm just just you know, so not to do your job for you but yeah and so she you know she's feeling it but she doesn't really have time to be worried about that she's just like trying to drive out and so that's that story so we could pause on that fucking story because like like hey what the fuck what what go Ahead. 70

0:13:12 Eli: That's Yeah, sure.

0:13:24 Eli: Tell me now. Here's here here's the crazy thing about that experience the like I had an uncomfortable unsafe experience in public is that I don't know a single woman and I guess you're speaking for myself I don'T KNOW A SINGLE WOMAN WHO HASN'T HAD THAT EXPERIENCE And I don't know a single man, no matter how woke or well-meaning, who doesn't immediately go like, maybe you dropped your wallet, did you consider maybe, so he was drenched in blood, maybe he was a butcher, like it is in our immediate toxic male instinct is to be like, I bet he was just hoping to compliment you on the lovely hat, which is why I was holding that severed head.

0:13:51 Tom: Yeah.

0:13:52 Thomas: Times, yes, yeah. Yeah yeah

0:14:18 Tom: Yeah, I don't understand what it is about, like, the knee -jerk reactionism to, like... Defend the sex that you sort of are categorically a part of. That's crazy. Like, this dude is crazy. The thing to do is to, again, mentioned this before, is, like… I don't care where you're at, the fucking room. If the room is Target and somebody seems uncomfortable, your fucking shopping can wait, man. Like, if you're fucking weirding somebody out, like, your shopping can wait, just back up. Well, I didn't, it doesn't matter what you intend, it literally makes no difference what you attend. One in four women are sexually assaulted, like, it doesn't matter that you're like, well, internally I know I'm not that guy. Fuck.

0:14:31 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah She's

0:14:52 Eli: Yeah

0:14:59 Thomas: Seven months pregnant. That's That's what blows

0:15:02 Tom: You. People

0:15:02 Thomas: My mind. She's seven months, because, like, if she weren't pregnant, that would be what I would think. I'd be like, yeah, it's probably some guy's just like really awkwardly hitting on her, maybe, or maybe he's gonna murder her, one of the other. But like, like, she's, I don't, there's not even the possibility that you're like, oh yeah, maybe I'll just see if I can make it with this, uh, pregnant, seven months pregnant mom shopping in the kid's clothing section. That's a, how much, what's the batting average?

0:15:23 Tom: Hit on pregnant ladies all the time

0:15:24 Thomas: What's the Batting average on that? How often is that?

0:15:24 Tom: Though. Yeah. Like, but it's to

0:15:29 Thomas: Maybe,

0:15:29 Tom: Say, I, but I don't think it has anything to do with, like, I think that kind of public, like, hitting on is the same thing as wolf whistle shit, right, and cat calling shit. It's a form of sexualized bullying that has nothing to do with, like, actually trying to achieve any kind of, like, contact goal, right? It's, it's a way specifically I think, to sexually bully and intimidate people. I, I, that's, that's my strong impression. Jesus.

0:15:47 Thomas: Maybe, I dunno.

0:15:55 Eli: And the one of the reasons that people do it is because what is the natural reaction when someone is scared, they act very nice and very polite. So if you're not used to getting those interactions from women, you can force that interaction. I know it's super alien to us, but you can enforce a, what for you is a positive interaction with a woman, by being creepy to her in a public place. Yeah.

0:16:10 Tom: Fucking

0:16:18 Thomas: Yeah. I, Tom, I agree with you on the, on the whistling thing and those kinds of interactions. This one, like the fact that he's like kind of trying to talk to her and has done nothing something explicit at all, I don't know, like either this guy's a fucking serial killer or he's just so clueless, you

0:16:19 Tom: Hell, I hadn't even thought of that but I guess, I mean, like, I'm assuming that he's reading her body language and picking up on her being uncomfortable and still continuing to make her uncomfortable and if you're, if you're doing that, I think that, I think I'm not saying this guy specifically, but I think he's speaking a little bit more generally, there certainly are people who revel in the fact that they have made somebody uncomfortable, and they know it, and they're walking that like I am not touching you line, right, like, like where it's like, I'm being a shit without, like, you being able to call out any with specificity an actual behavior. And I think that that is a form of sexualized bullying.

0:16:41 Thomas: Maybe, yeah. Hmm.

0:17:12 Eli: Think it's sort of the, what are you looking at, of male-female interaction, right? I don't know if you've ever encountered this, I have once, and was so baffled by it that I immediately started laughing, which was probably not the reaction, I have, but have you ever been in a bar and a guy goes, what the fuck are you looking at, and you have to be like, hey man, am I in a superhero movie and about to learn that the spider gave me powers, like what the fuck's happening, but I think it's that, I think it is just a person who is taking control of their space because that is the thing they can do to ameliorate their suffering in that moment or whatever fucking excuse they came up with in therapy.

0:17:28 Tom: Yes.

0:17:48 Eli: I don't care, they suck.

0:17:48 Tom: Do have Have funny. What are you looking at story, real quick? Just as an aside, I had my first job, I'm maybe 16, 17 years old, I was not a small 16 or 17, and and I was on my break, and I was eating lunch in some like diner or restaurant or whatever, and there was somebody else, and like I was just kind of spacing out, I guess I must have been spacing out, and I was tired in the general direction of this other kid, is about my age, so I go, I finish eating, I go outside, he gets up and he walks outside, he's like, why are you staring at me?

And I was like, what? I was baffled, I had no idea what he was talking about, and so he does that, what you looking at bit, you know, and then he hauls off and he hits me with this like, like uppercut into my stomach, and he hits me, and I, and I, but I'm a lot bigger than this guy, so I just like, I kind of bend over, and then I just straighten up, and I just look at him like, really, and he just turned around and walked

0:18:39 Tom: Away, because it was like, it was, what it was, like, we didn't even get in a fight, I was just like baffled by the exchange, start to finish, start to, but yeah, it escalated all the way to a punch, and I was juste like, I don't even understand what's happening, right now, we didn't even finish out that interchange. Yeah.

0:18:39 Eli: Right

0:18:45 Thomas: Yeah yeah yeah It feels like there's a segment of, of, or you know, like youngish men who like try on the bullying hat for a minute, like, ah, maybe, maybe I could be that piece of shit. And then they try it and they try to punch fucking Tom and it doesn't do anything. They're like, nope, nope, Nope, Nope. Nope.

0:19:02 Tom: Yes.

0:19:07 Eli: Nope. No, No, not that. Not that. I'm going to, I'm

0:19:11 Tom: Yeah We that's What they

0:19:12 Thomas: Nevermind. I'm not that. I nevermind. So I was doing a bit

0:19:14 Eli: Gonna go put on a monster energy hat and date high schoolers. That's, uh, it's the next rung down.

0:19:19 Thomas: Wrong persona. Didn't done. Not me. Okay. Take care.

0:19:22 Eli: But Here's a take that I want to provide here that I think is a perspective that doesn't get talked about a bunch, which is that I am a naturally pretty scary looking dude. And, you know, Tom said that thing about read the room. I do crazy shit all the time to make people feel comfortable.

For instance, when I go to the bar at my Starbucks, right, will loudly announce if I'm going to walk behind anybody of any gender that I'm about to reach past them, because I have learned from life experience that if I come looming out of the darkness, hand outstretched, as you're waiting for your macchiato, I only had to see seven horrified expressions before I started going, "Fat, big, fat guy with a beard, gonna reach past you," you know, and I will say I've had this interaction when I'm walking behind women, women, um, in a dark empty street, um, like, it's just them and I need to go that direction, I will often call Anna and be like, "Hello, Anna, my wife, I was just calling you to say hello, no murders is what I did today and plan to keep my current score of zero murders," and like I have felt the tension go out of situations. I also, like, try to help people, so I will often find myself in scenarios where you need to clarify that you're a safe person, right?

"Things going on in the subway, do you need help, do you need this, you need that?" Right, just like when I loom out of the mass, the crowd, to someone, someone doesn't immediately go like, "Ah, a fine upstanding American, I can't wait for him to carry my luggage." So you do have to make, do, people uncomfortable if you're not necessarily a safe looking person. And another part, I think, of toxic is this, like... Well, no, I will never acknowledge that someone might be uncomfortable around

0:20:04 Thomas: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

0:21:07 Eli: Me, right? Like, what's wrong with you that you feel this way?

0:21:07 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:21:07 Tom: Yeah, man, dude, A thousand percent. And, like, I would, I would echo and add to that that no matter who you are, if you're a male, you are likely to at least some point in your life be perceived as an unsafe person, and it's your job to just be okay with that truth. I, there's all this pushback bullshit, you know, and I see it, we've even gotten emails about it, like, there's a lot, this pushback where it's like, "Oh, it sucks as a man, I can't do this, I can't do that," you know, it's assumed that I have bad intentions.

Like, yeah, okay, fine, it is, it is assumed that some men have bad, and the reason for that is almost all of the attackers of women are men, that's just a true thing. We live in a world, it, it doesn't matter what, you're the only one that reads the inside of your fucking brain, man. Like, people have, people have too little sympathy. It's like they're looking at the world and saying, "Well, but I don't like it." That's fucking male privilege. You're not the one who is potentially going to be murder raped, that's

0:21:22 Thomas: Yeah.

0:21:48 Eli: Yeah. Yeah.

0:22:08 Tom: It, you know, like, just be okay with it, just be like, like, oh, you know what, and I, I will say, like, as somebody who's like a little bit bigger, I recognize, like, that my body creates a disproportionate, like, like, there's a view of threat that is disproportionate to my actions, right? Super aware of that, like, is it fair? Well, yeah, it is actually fair, because if things go south, my ability to create harm is different than somebody else's ability to create harm. And that's true of every male -female interaction with only limited statistically insignificant exceptions. So if you're a male -bodied person, if you're a male embodied person, it doesn't matter if you don't think it's fair. Literally throw that shit away. Doesn't, that you don' have ill intent, throw that shit way. Nobody reads your mind, and one in four women get sexually assaulted, it's always by men, it's almost always by men.

0:22:28 Eli: Yeah.

0:22:59 Eli: The way I put it is this. Look, depending on how you count the numbers, the second to fifth leading cause of death for women is men, right, somewhere between two and five, depending depending on how you count the numbers, if absolutely.

0:23:08 Thomas: Really?

0:23:09 Tom: Yeah. If you're pregnant, it's the number one leading cause of of of mortality, maternal mortality. The leading cause of maternal mortality is homicide by your by your intimate partner. You look it up right now, that is the number one cause. All the pregnancy complications are secondary, man, to being fucking murdered. Nobody is more vulnerable to murder than a pregnant woman.

0:23:21 Thomas: No way. Holy shit. That's depressing.

0:23:23 Eli: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:23:30 Thomas: Wow. So when we're in the delivery room, should I tell the doctor, hey, do you want to like restrain me? Cause I feel like that's the like, just odds wise, just that we're going to be safe here.

0:23:40 Tom: What?

0:23:45 Eli: They luckily medicine actually does have put some of those things in place. Like when Anna got pregnant, I don't know if this happened to you guys. When Anna got pregnant, they sent me out of the room for like a private test. And that private test is they're like, Hey, does he hit you? Are you safe now?

0:23:54 Tom: Oh,

0:23:53 Thomas: Yeah, sure. Yeah. They find a ton of times to ask that. It's the point where it does get a little old and they ask, they'll ask me that too. Like if I just go in for therapy, which is fine.

0:23:59 Tom: I don't remember that Yeah. Do you

0:24:06 Thomas: Like it's whatever.

0:24:06 Tom: Feel safe at home?

0:24:07 Thomas: Yeah no, they do. I mean like literally I it's, I don't know if that's just a California thing or what, but like in the, yeah.

0:24:07 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. They ask me too. That's why

0:24:14 Thomas: And then yeah.

0:24:14 Tom: I'm laughing. It's like, yeah.

0:24:15 Thomas: In the mental health program. And you know, that's a real thing. Like obviously we shouldn't pretend there's not, you know know, intimate partner violence have gone both ways. It's just, you know, numbers are numbers. Like,

0:24:23 Eli: Now I'm a little mad because because my therapist has never asked me that, and I assume, based on being my therapist, he's just like, well, look, if someone beats the shit out of you, I get it, okay? So I'm not gonna ask this. Look, this guy deserves it.

0:24:31 Thomas: Oh, oh, man.

0:24:26 Tom: But Does It your doesn't Your GP ask you that, Eli, when you go in for a physical?

0:24:39 Eli: No.

0:24:40 Thomas: Wow.

0:24:40 Tom: Really?

0:24:40 Eli: No.

0:24:41 Tom: I get asked that all the time. What?

0:24:42 Thomas: Yeah.

0:24:42 Eli: I've literally never had any doctor anywhere ask me if I was safe at home.

0:24:48 Thomas: Oh. Eli, are you feeling safe at home? Maybe we should.

0:24:49 Tom: Yeah. We should, Eli.

0:24:52 Thomas: Yeah, well, off the air.

0:24:52 Eli: There's a lot

0:24:52 Tom: Eli, Do you want to turn the camera on, Betty?

0:24:53 Eli: Of open cabinet doors. I tend to hit my head a lot.

0:24:55 Tom: Yes.

0:24:57 Thomas: Well, that's your fault. OK, so.

0:24:57 Eli: No, to finish my two through five thing, right? Like, depending on how you count the numbers, men are either the second through the fifth most cause of death for women, right? Heart disease just started to follow you through the parking lot of a Wendy's. You also wouldn't be like, well, I don't know, all heart disease isn't necessarily bad.

0:25:11 Thomas: Yeah yeah.

0:25:15 Tom: Yeah.

0:25:17 Eli: And

0:25:19 Thomas: Totally, totally. I think that for one, I want to say a couple of things about this. I really just, when it comes to like trying to get into the fucking reasoning of these dudes, I'm just at a loss because I can't, you we've talked about so much of my trying to figure other people out and figure my life out has been using my empathy, has just been trying to put myself in someone's shoes. And I barely truly cannot put myself into someone's shoes. I just don't fucking know. Like you could tell me it's one thing or another or anything, and I would have to believe you because, because I just cannot fathom being this dude. Don't get me wrong, I think I've certainly in my early 20s, like, I'm sure I was, like, not super cool all the time. But, like, in this particular way, I don't understand it. And I never could. Like, that's the weirdest thing in the world.

0:25:42 Tom: Yeah.

0:26:00 Eli: One of the excuses that gets made a lot of the time is like, oh, well, you just don't hit on people in public. And first of all, there's a really good argument to be made that like, don't hit on people in public. Don't hit on people in the non hitting on people places, just go to the hitting on people places, of which there are many, and do the hitting on there.

0:26:10 Tom: Right.

0:26:09 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. They have places on your phone that are specifically designed for that.

0:26:21 Eli: But but but the second thing to that is, like, if the first part of you hitting on someone isn't making sure that that person is open and safe and receptive, you're not hitting on them. I don't know what we call what you're doing to them, but you're definitely not trying.

0:26:37 Tom: You're Scaring them.

0:26:38 Eli: Yeah, exactly.

0:26:32 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. You're creeping. You're creepin' on them.

0:26:39 Eli: You're you're having a one-on-one spooktacular, is what you do to

0:26:41 Tom: To

0:26:39 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. At QED, I met a lot of, of, actually, who, who, me, they love, I'm sure Eli, you had the same thing, who told me they were loving this show and it made me so happy. And almost to two, a person, none of them had kids. And I know we've already kind of talked about that. And I told one of them, I was like, yeah, know the show is called Dear Old Dads and it's got the picture of Tom's Hitler dad on on it. And just kidding.

0:27:04 Tom: Oh, absolutely.

0:27:05 Thomas: But like going into it and you guys can back me up here. And I think you probably feel the same way. I just as much wanted to talk about masculinity in the show. Like I love talking about my kids, but I wanted to be one of the pitches that I felt that I wanted to do for this show was be the counter Joe Rogan, like to actually be a good influence, influence for men, which is why, you obviously going to be a male centric show. It's, you know, that that's just who we are. That's what we want to talk about. And in the interest of that, I want to, you know, admit some, some things here.

Like when I was first, I would say in my late teens, early twenties, I didn't do this well. You know, I had a mode of like, oh, I can just always be flirty Thomas. And that's cool. Like, I'm flirty Thomas, I'll just be, that's what I like to do. It was fun. You know, what's fun is flirting with people, especially when they like, like, flirting back. That's super fun.

And then it took me a while to realize, like, hey, even though that, like, I'm not, I don't think I was like super creepy or anything by any means, but like, there are a bunch of people who they don't even want any sort of flirting, you know, like any sort of, even the lightest of, of flirting that's makes them uncomfortable. And that's something that's important to know.

Like, I think it's not safe to just be in constant flirty Thomas mode, even if, like, I'm getting good responses from some people, you know, like it's just not appropriate.

0:27:15 Tom: Okay.

0:28:22 Tom: So then, I know we're totally derailing, that Arlo almost died here, but now I have to ask because I, because I'm really curious, what counts is flirting? Like, asked this because when Hayley and I were, we're dating, um, and we were long distance, there were, there was a long stretch of time where like was just all like, I just put my earphones in, she put her, her earphones, and that's how we hung out all day, so we just like hang out all day, walk through the grocery store, just go about our lives connected to one another on these, like, like extended phone calls that would last days and days and days, or just hang out in that way and get to know each other from 900 miles away.

And, you I was at the grocery store, or, you know, I'm going through the day-to-day parts of my life, and she made a comment about like, I'm like, I'm flirting with the cashier or something like that, and I was gobsmacked at that, I was like, what are you talking about, flirt? Like, so in my mind, like, I'm just being friendly, cracking a of joke, like,

0:28:24 Thomas: Oh, yeah, we'll get there. We'll get that.

0:28:27 Eli: You deserved it. It's fine.

0:28:44 Thomas: Hmm.

0:29:15 Thomas: Yeah, that'S

0:29:15 Tom: You know, trying to lighten someone's day, like, I'm standing in line, you know, I've always got like a, there's a little quip or something, you know, like trying, and in my mind it's not flirting, but it is, I being intentionally charming, does that count?

0:29:27 Thomas: I think that's like, no, I think THAT'S THAT'S OKAY. I it's hard to put into words, but and maybe I'm fucking crazy. You guys can tell me. I think there's just I think Eli maybe could answer this. I think there's just a certain demeanor that on any gender spectrum can put on that, like, is kind of signaling, like, I'm looking for stuff, you know, that's not even, it's not explicitly said.

0:29:28 Tom: No, that's why I'm asking. Genuinely, I don't know. Okay.

0:29:50 Tom: All right, so a little more, all

0:29:51 Thomas: Yeah, I don't mean just being nice, like, yeah, I'm, I'm nice and crack jokes, or I try to be with like everybody, but there's a certain, it's, I think it's almost completely, oftentimes, oftentimes, for me anyway, I'm not talking about for fucking weird dudes who just make things explicitly sexual comment. That's a different story. That's yeah, yeah,

0:29:51 Tom: Right, yeah, I got you. Yeah,

0:30:07 Eli: Right. Healthy flirting, which I was

0:30:08 Tom: That's not even flirting, that's just being creepy, like, just turning everything immediately into sex is like

0:30:09 Eli: Gonna say, we right. Right.

0:30:12 Thomas: But like there's a there's a certain demeanor. There's a certain look, a way of body language, of talking, of looking, that I think is pretty clearly signaling what your intentions are, and that can be uncomfortable, and it's not, I had to learn that, like, that's not appropriate all the time, you know, like there are plenty of times, or whatever, it's a, fine, you're in a situation, you're at a bar, you're at a party or whatever, that's, that's a different story, you're, you're out, the fucking workplace, you're doing whatever, it is not appropriate, you, that was something I'm, I wish I had known earlier, and that's something I definitely would, would try to communicate to Arlo in best way I can. Yeah.

0:30:15 Tom: Right. Oh,

0:30:30 Eli: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know if you touched on something that I, that I want to expand as well, and this could be its own episode, but, but when she is at work, you are not on equal footing for you to flirt with her, which is I see a mistake a lot of guys make, especially when it comes to food service or bars, right? Where a female bartender or a female waitress, their job is to be nice to you. And so and you talk about owning it. I definitely did not get that for years and years and ears and had female friends be like, stop, stop it. She doesn't like you. She does not like you tipping is sexist. Stop it. And I stopped. Right. But like that is something that is really hard to learn, especially if you're not used to positive female attention. And that's definitely something that's commodified. I mean, Jesus, Hooters exists. Like, can

0:30:57 Tom: Yeah.

0:30:58 Thomas: Good call, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:31:33 Eli: We talk about the fact that Hooters business, Hooters real Business model. Right? And really, let's think about how fucked this universe got. How from the like the single cell organisms we should restart. Start, Hooters does not sell you looking at boobs, you can see boobs on your phone. Hootters sells you friendly, flirty waitresses, that is the product at Hooters, and if, if you have ever taken like a feminist man or a feminist woman to HootS, if you haven't done that yet, you should, because it's a private little hell you get to put

0:31:36 Thomas: So fucking weird.

0:32:07 Tom: Yeah.

0:32:07 Eli: Your friend through. I would, you, you want to talk about Patreon goals? We could set an $8,000 billion Patreon goal to take Tom and Thomas to Hooters right now. I will film the whole thing and they will literally curl inside themselves.

0:32:20 Thomas: I have been, yes. I've been, like, I have friend, and the awkward part is I have friends who are a couple who I love, and for some reason they, like, going to Hooters, and we're like, yeah, we'll do, is like my birthday, not mine, but like his birthday, we'll go to Hooters. I was like, Hooters, what the fuck? I hadn't been until, until, god, I don't know, five, six, seven years ago for the first time, and I was just like, what are we doing here? Is, is the food good? Like, what, what are we doing there? It's not, by the way. The food's not good so we're I

0:32:51 Eli: No, the food's not. It's tripled and it's triple the price of that food everywhere else in the world.

0:32:55 Thomas: Just don't like the idea that I might be getting fucked, fucked over from somebody who might be captive to this thing and like might be kind of forced for socioeconomic reasons to be doing this thing. That's just weird. It's uncomfortable.

0:33:11 Tom: I Actually funny because I went to Hooters when I was like 18, 19, because I did, like, because I was an idiot and so like I liked the food, like I was like they have like really spicy wings, me and my buddy Rick, we would go, we would go there'd be like a four of us, but I do remember, even then, like, you're exactly right, the waitresses are super flirty and I fucking hated how flirty the waitresses are. I was, I found it like I was like I just want to eat fucking wings with my buddy, like I don't want, like I don't believe this. I

0:33:33 Thomas: All right.

0:33:38 Eli: For his bros and the spicy wings. It's,

0:33:42 Tom: I would go, like I would just like be like, I just want to eat food, like I don't want you to pretend you are into me, I, I saw it even when I was a young person, I was like, this feels gross. What's what again, 18, you know, like, so like, you're you're just a piece of shit when you're 18.

0:33:51 Thomas: Wing places that you can find. Yeah. Yeah,

0:33:57 Tom: I don't go I haven't been back since I could drink a beer, so it's been 20 years, it

0:33:58 Thomas: Yeah.

0:34:02 Eli: Billionaire reboot idea. We buy the Hooters franchise. I know it'll cost a little bit, but we do it. And then you can choose between a flirting and a non-flirting section when you come in for free. But if you want to change sections halfway through, it costs you $800,000 because that's where I think the moneymaker, I think everyone goes to flirting. And then they take out the checkbook and remortgage their house to go to the non-flirting section.

0:34:08 Tom: Can't be that much anymore yeah

0:34:29 Thomas: Or I think there's so much here along the, like, the lines of the workplace flirting and the, I also was along the Hooters lines, I want to talk strip clubs, I think is an interesting topic, I think we gotta let Let's let's put a pause on that for later because I want to get back to my son's murder, although if you don't mind, I did want to just say one thing that you said early on, Eli, I just wanted to echo because when I started to say I can't read these dude's mind, I was going to get to the, to the point that I want, want to not talk about that, because I, I hope, I sincerely hope that there's, there isn't that dude listening to our show. I hope there isn't. I don't think, I doubt it.

There might be, I hope that dude isn't listening to the show. The dude that stalked Lydia and the target in a really weird way, but you know who might be listening to her show is the dude Eli mentioned, because this is a lot of dudes who would hear the story and then start making all the excuses for why my wife is overreacting

0:34:35 Tom: Yeah yep

0:34:39 Eli: Oh, God.

0:35:19 Thomas: And that I just want to take a second to say, like, I, it, I'm sure I was that dude at some point in my life and

0:35:19 Tom: I

0:35:25 Eli: Yes, I have been that dude. And my natural impulse is still to be that. When you told me the story, in my, in my head, my first reaction was, well, I don't see what the big deal is. I was, at the time you were telling me that she had a bad experience, and I was already making excuses for a fictional

0:35:26 Thomas: Yeah

0:35:43 Tom: Don't

0:35:44 Thomas: And I think it's because men, God, there's a lot here, maybe, maybe we should leave it, but like, I think men are maybe secretly scared that they're the creep at all times, and so any like implication of one dude being a creep is like an implication of all dudes. You know, like, yeah.

0:36:01 Eli: Yes. And that, I want to throw out there, that's exactly what it is. It's about being afraid to be creepy, because, and again, I know this from experience, it really hurts your feelings. I've done that every time someone has been scared of me, and I've had to do a silly thing or make a big show so that someone feels safe. I have been resentful for that, because the thing that is me, my attractive self, scared someone instead of made them feel happy, right?

0:36:11 Thomas: Yeah.

0:36:25 Tom: Say that is the most charitable possible explanation, though, I think that that like I would, I would push on that, I know, I know, we want to like move on but it I think it is, because I think a lot of, I think a lot, I think, I think men are not like, oh, I, I don't want to be creepy, I think there are a lot of men that do not give a shit that they're creepy, like there are lot of really shitty toxic dudes out there that are very comfortable in their position of privilege within the patriarchy that are completely happy with the missile, like the Andrew Tate, does not have a small following, that, that guy doesn't give a fuck that he's creepy. That guy's not worried the way Eli is that, oh my gosh, I'm being defensive because I don't want to be perceived as the creep. Like the whole manosphere is, and the entire conservative right wing of this country, which is nearly half of all the people that you'll meet, plus a good chunk of the left, they, like, don't give us shit that they're creepy, man. They really don't.

0:36:30 Thomas: I don't think it's that charitable, is it?

0:36:44 Thomas: Well, Hmm. Yeah, I

0:36:57 Eli: Right.

0:37:20 Thomas: A finer point on it. I don't think that what you're saying and what I was saying is entirely mutually exclusive. I think when I say that, I think a lot of people are trying to defend any random dude being creepy because they are trying to like take on the project of having women find fewer men creepy. You know, like I don't think that's an entirely like charitable read of it

0:37:38 Tom: Yeah, no, I was mostly, mostly pushing on what Eli was saying about like, about how, about how some people, about how part of where that comes from. And I don't think that Eli's wrong, I'm just saying, I think that's actually a really minority view. I think that the desire to not be creepy, animating the sort -jerk reactionism to protect other men, is a minority and actually charitable view. I think the majority of where it comes from is men are trying to implicitly and explicitly explicitly re -ensconce at all times their point of privilege and maintain that hegemony in the system, I

0:37:38 Thomas: Oh okay gotcha

0:37:40 Eli: Yeah. Yeah.

0:38:12 Tom: Think that a hundred percent, that is the bulk of where that comes from, that, from, from the male perspective, yeah

0:38:18 Eli: Yeah, that's well worth considering as well, is that it's important for me and I think for our listeners to not to project your good intentions on to most men, because I think there's... there's a lot of shitty dudes, too.

0:38:27 Thomas: Yeah yeah and think Eli said it from the get-go, and this is something that I've had to learn too, your intentions just don't matter in certain circumstances sometimes they do but in a circumstance where a pregnant woman whose son has been murdered is scared of you, I'm sorry, I don't really give a shit what your intentions were, like, just stop stop doing that, whatever, whatever he's doing. And so, um, well, pin in that. I think there's a lot more we can talk about there. Um, so now in the story, Lydia has escaped the fucking clutches of whoever this was again. And I wanted to say this, I'm horror of the situation. And, and what I think men, you should really try to empathize with if you don't already with, with the situation of being a woman and in the society is that dude could have been completely harmless, or he could have been a fucking murder. She will never know. And that there's

0:38:37 Eli: Exactly.

0:38:39 Tom: Yeah doesn't matter, right yep

0:39:18 Thomas: A horror to that. There's a, and there's 1,000,000 interactions in a lifetime that are that, oh, maybe that was absolutely nothing dangerous. Or maybe I was going to get raped. Like there's no, you just don't, you'll never know, hopefully you'll ever know unless it happens, but like there are all these situations and that fucking suck. Imagine how much that sucks, because if someone comes along, oh, maybe he was just trying to. Yeah, OK, maybe, uh,

0:39:31 Tom: Yeah I will say too, like that knee-jerk male protectionism also conditions women to do the same thing which which works against their best interests in keeping themselves safe. It's that reaction that we have that is literally killing people. And that's not hyperbolic, because if you internalize that, male or female, and you're making yourself like, oh, benefit of the doubt, where it's not necessarily warranted, you know, this feels off, I'm not reading my own vibes. There are times that people do that, and then it turns out that guy was a fucking murderer, and he murdered you, and that's just true, like it's not just like a bad thing to do because it's like dishonest, and it's not just a bad thing to do because it lacks empathy. It's a bad thing to do because like it literally will kill people.

0:39:45 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:40:22 Eli: Yeah, we I used to do like a school. Hey, here's a way to make myself likable. I used to do a school play at the start of every NYU year for the NYU students about campus safety. And one of the songs that we performed every year that I loved was called Run the Fuck Away. And it was basically like, hey, whenever you're in a situation that starts to feel scary, you should just sprint away. Like, again, just statistically, like that is good intentions. And let me say, I've done that. Right. I don't know that one could ever call what I do at this point sprinting, but I've done that, and I've been wrong, and you have a nice little chuckle while you bend over, because that guy was really just taking out the trash for that McDonald's or whatever the fuck he was doing, but you know what, you are, you're alive, you are alive, a block and a half away having an asthma attack, and that's what matters

0:40:47 Thomas: Yeah,

0:41:07 Tom: Yep,

0:41:10 Thomas: If your action is not hurt, like your retreating action is not hurting anybody, you know? Like, it's one thing if you're like, oh no, just shoot him because you have, you know, but if you're retreating, it'S pretty low Stakes to be like, just get out of that, that situation, you know, so she's out of the evil clutches of this, whoever this was, maybe totally perfectly nice guy or serial killer, and we'll never know. No, he's not, he's not perfectly nice, we know that, he's a fucking creepy guy, but um, she heads over there and he's puked, I think, again. And at that point I'm talking to Lydia and we're both of the mind of, like, again, along the theme of don't take any fucking chances, I tell her, just call, just call 9-1-1. She was on, on the same page too. Like, just call 9-1-1. There's no, I don't give a shit, whatever the money that that costs is, I do not fucking care if

0:41:18 Eli: Yeah

0:41:20 Tom: Right. Yeah, right? No.

0:41:33 Tom: Yeah.

0:41:56 Thomas: They are going to tell me. There was no reason to, they

0:41:56 Tom: Was the school just waiting to see what you would do?

0:41:59 Thomas: Were waiting for, to, to kind of ask us what to do. We, I mean, they had, we had the EpiPen there. EpiPen is a, it is a pretty big deal. So I, I get the, it's not just like safe, easy thing. You know, it was like kind of a big deal to do an Epi, to administer an Epipen. And And here's the other thing. He just started at this school. So I don't, in fact, yeah, maybe, maybe he didn't have his EpiPen there. Actually, that might be true. It might be that we just started him and you have to like get the doctor's authorization for like every school, you know, and we might, we might not have even had that yet. So that, that could be part of it too. Now I'm, I'm second guessing myself. I don't remember. It's there now, basically. We, we know we have it there now. Um, and so

0:42:03 Tom: Holy shit.

0:42:38 Thomas: Like, I don't entirely blame them.

0:42:39 Eli: That was an awkward day when you brought that in, huh? You had to bring it in, like, "Hey, just in case," Right. Uh, blue

0:42:43 Thomas: Yeah. Hey, just in case anyone wants to kill my son, here's the, um, unkill button if anyone wants to murder him again. Um, yeah. And so, so

0:42:50 Tom: Jesus Christ.

0:42:50 Eli: Towards the sky, green towards the thigh.

0:42:54 Thomas: Um, that point when he pukes again, you know, Lydia just has them call the ambulance. And they, he's not looking good. And, and honestly, like, I'm not sure, sure how much more intrigue to the story is, other than I'm fucking over a country away dying now. Look, I'm already an emotional guy, I don't care, I don't fucking hide that, I'm an emotional guy.

When I am exhausted, I become a Hallmark film, like, I can't even, I can't keep it together, I don't know what it is, when I'm exhausted I cannot keep my emotions in touch. And so I'm losing it, like I'm literally fucking sobbing in a crowd of people, because of this has happened, happened. And then it happened, was, I thought it was okay. So what happened was, oh, they, uh, he's in the ambulance, they gave him the EpiPen, looking good.

And it was rough, like, I was still, like, you know, disturbed. I was like, oh, okay, exhale, he's got the EpiPen, okay, you know, he's in good hands, exhale. I want to, you know, like, maybe I'll just, it's better, I want to be around people, because I feel like shit and I'm, you, of scared and all that, I would like to be around some friends right now and maybe have a beer, because I've just been stressing my life out, you know?

And so I start hanging out again, and Eli was there for this, start hanging it out again a bit, you feel a little better. And then all of a sudden I remember, oh fuck, I got to check my phone again. It's been, you, five whole minutes that I didn't check my. And I see messages that, like, hey, he's getting worse, like, it's actually taking a downturn. He's, he's having, after the EpiPen he's breaking out in hives, he is red.

0:44:26 Thomas: And me, and then I was like in the middle of people more, and I just lost, I was like crying, I went over and called him, I saw the picture of him like in the fucking hospital bed, like just totally out of it, you know, and like all red, and it just, it was the worst man it was just

0:44:41 Tom: Did you did you try to book a flight home at that point?

0:44:42 Thomas: Absolutely the worst I that point, I was just trying to like call and be a part of it, and I wasn't thinking about that yet, because booking a flight home means I'll be, be there in about 36 hours. So it, like, an urgent thing to even do that.

0:44:54 Tom: You're not all that responsive at that point.

0:44:56 Thomas: Yeah, like the difference between me getting there 36 hours and 37 hours wouldn't have really mattered, you know? Like, so at first my thought was just, I want to try to be on the phone and be on support. And then, like kind of later, I asked her, like do you want me to fly home? Because I will look for flights right now. But that, we'll get to that in a minute. But, so he gets worse. He, I've, god, then I got to video call him and, and that was just like, I completely shattered my soul because the hardest thing about all of this with kids, in my opinion, is there's such fucking pure little troopers, especially Arlo. He is the most resilient boy.

He's so happy all the time. You'll see it's so heartbreaking. I'm going to try my best not to break down right now to see just a little guy who's just, he's trying to be a kid still. He'll be, this will happen if you have kids.

He'll been hooked up to an IV, which he was, and you just see him still trying to be a kid because he is a kid, you know, and he'll, he, he was like trying to, he could barely talk because he was so tired and drowsy from all the stuff, but he was like, I want to get ice cream and mama said I can get like 10 flavors, you know, like it was, he's just still doing that kid stuff and

0:44:56 Tom: Yeah, right, right.

0:45:01 Eli: Yeah.

0:46:01 Thomas: I'm just like yeah buddy I

0:46:01 Tom: If you don't die, we'll buy you a Baskin Robbins franchise, kid.

0:46:04 Thomas: I am so, I want a sue um, FaceTime or Facebook for the fact that it shows me my face while I'm talking because I just saw a completely, completely disheveled, disgusting, crying. I was like, that's not even me. I don't know what I, was unfortunate to have to see what my wife was looking at. I can't even handle what I'm seeing right now. Sorry. Um, it was, God, it was so hard and to have him not be doing that well after the EpiPen. And then they did the, like an IV, they did some steroid stuff. Uh, so he's, he's really ripped now. It's good. He's got his fucking shaft.

0:46:33 Eli: He's jacked. His gains are incredible.

0:46:34 Tom: Yeah, a

0:46:35 Thomas: Yeah. And after, that and after, you know, a bit of that of dying of just completely breaking down, he started, he got better. Finally he started everything was getting better. He, you Know, it was, he was on the up and up and that's the kind of the end of the story is it turned out fine. You know, he, they under observation for quite a while. My wife's parents were able to like come and help with Phoebe, you know, cause she was still in school. And so they went and got her. And so that, that's awesome that they were available for that. Um, my parents were, you Know, they were just about to help. They're just on the verge of getting in the car. No, my mom, my mum would have helped if she, but like, it's just funny to imagine if my dad were alive, he would probably never even find out about this or care or ever do anything.

0:47:16 Eli: Your mom would have gotten on FaceTime and been like, now, Lydia, did you face east or north when you conceived him? Oh, see, that's where the allergy comes in. Okay, so that's, that'd be it. That's where it comes from.

0:47:18 Tom: Lot

0:47:22 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Oh my God. Yes. Yes, separate point. I wanted to get to that as well, and so, uh, the only other thing I wanted to say is, is I know, I'm sorry if this is like, you know, corny emotional heavy stuff, but as once I became a parent and once I had these beautiful babies in my life, I get it, I'm an emotional mess who's in love with these kids, I understand, but what, what shifted in my personal value system was, and it's not to say I wasn't this way a little bit before, but I looked at the world and how shitty it is and I, what changed in my value system is when I see anyone caring for another person, that's not their kid in any way, it's the most valuable thing in the universe, you know, taking care of people just for the sake of taking care people.

Has a new little blanket now, because there's a group of people that just quilts blankets for kids who have to ride in the ambulance. It's just stuff like that that just, I can't tell you how much I value anything like that now. And, uh, it's stuff I would want to put out into the world too, because everyone's kids are as important to them as mine are to me. And I find that so valuable and sweet. And long story short, Arlo hates the the blanket.

He actually doesn't like it. Um, we tried to get him to use it as his new blanket for nap time at school. And he was like, nah, it just doesn't, but that's not the point. Okay. That's neither here nor there.

0:48:46 Thomas: It's such a sweet gesture.

0:48:46 Tom: Of bad memories tied to that blanket,

0:48:48 Thomas: I don't even think that's it. He probably just doesn't Like one of the colors that's on it. It has soccer balls and I don't really play soccer, so I don't like it, but it's so sweet.

0:48:48 Tom: Dad. Actually, you know, it's not my favorite day. So You keeping him at that school? I mean I

0:49:01 Thomas: So we had that. Yeah, we had had that conversation yesterday, um, we are, I think that, um, was a bad oversight, uh, this was bad, it's softened by the fact that he just started there, his his teacher is a lovely older lady, she's very lovely, she of the problem was for some reason, I think the fucking cook should be in charge of all this, if there's somebody whose job is just preparing food, they should be in charge of all this, not the old lady who also has to manage 800 screaming toddlers, um, they kind of put it on her a little bit, you know, which I didn't, I didn't love, the person, whatever fucking position it is we talked to, kind of put it, his teacher

0:49:36 Tom: Mean Shit rolls uphill, man, it's on, it's on the administration of that school to make sure they have a policy and sets of procedures, so however they administer those, shit rolls up hill, I, wow I

0:49:36 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah right and the reasoning was, she, they had, they, somebody hadn't made, like, one of the places where they put allergies, they hadn't, like, yet done, oh, they, they were like waiting on his picture to be able to, like, put it on his picture card thing. You know, like, it was some, just not, it's, it's always what it is. Some stupid thing that just, you know, a series of mistakes and you, the last line of defense would have been his teacher, and, and his teacher kind of put him in the category of, oh yeah, peanuts and eggs, and just kind of thought, you know, that cognitive thing where you're like, yes, I know the allergies he has. It's these two allergies.

And maybe even if you see the word Sunflower, you don't even think of it, because, like, your mind is looking for, like, peanut and, you know, whatever else, and she just, she felt so bad, I could look, I could tell, this this poor woman, she's a great teacher, and the reason we moved him to the school was because we didn't want him to have shitty mean teachers, she's delightful, she's nice, she made a mistake, the whole school made some mistakes, they seemed to take this incredibly seriously, no, I sent someone's toddler to the hospital, I'm not, not sure I would live through the day, they're like, gonna be beating themselves up enough, and I could tell they were like the teacher, when I brought, when we brought him

0:50:21 Tom: Yeah it's just yeah

0:50:27 Eli: Right.

0:50:55 Thomas: In Monday, she was like yeah

0:50:56 Tom: You're more generous about this than I am by a lot.

0:50:58 Eli: Surprised, I gotta admit, I am surprised how generous Thomas is, see

0:50:59 Tom: Right I literally no way I wouldn't sue that school for, at the very least, the costs that I incurred as a result of them trying to murder the kid. But

0:51:09 Thomas: Costs I will tell them, you need to take this out of our bill, like I will tell them that, yeah yeah

0:51:12 Tom: I wouldnít have a bill for a long time. I just canít imagine that. And I guess kudos to you for able to see the bigger picture. No way. I think Like, if somebody, if I entrust my kid to a school and they don't have good procedures that are not perfectly loctite, I like, don't know, man. Like, that would, I'm not judging you on it. I'm just trying to put myself in your shoes, and I just would not be as forgiving.

0:51:15 Eli: This is the, I it's wonderful it's obviously wonderful, like

0:51:44 Tom: I would not being as forgiving,

0:51:44 Eli: That level of empathy yeah, no, and I think it reflects the three policies of this podcast very well, is like Thomas's position of like empathy and understanding and like putting himself in the person's shoes, and Tom being like, fuck you, I'm gonna sue you, and I would be like, you have to let me make you dinner for the next three weeks, one of those times it's gonna be poisoned, just so, you know that's

0:52:03 Tom: Yeah.

0:52:07 Thomas: Eli's position of committing an actual murder, but because Eli's so compelling and how he presents it, you're like, yeah, maybe, maybe you should just be allowed to murder people because Eli's funny enough to pull that off, yeah I look, there's no fucking money in it, man, if this was a multinational, if this is a McDonald's who poisoned my kid, yeah, I'll go get my billion dollars, there's, don't, fuck, these people don't make any money, they just don't, the child care is so shitty right now, there's nobody makes any money, it somehow costs a ton, but that all goes to like insurance, well, maybe I should go collect some insurance money, we'll see I'll think about I didn't I did say I told Lydia we're not signing anything, like, I'm not, I'm not getting rid of the possibility of suing, if that made any sense, but I also, I don't know, man, I just, part of me is like, fucking whatever, it's someone made

0:52:18 Eli: Right, Sunflower

0:52:39 Tom: Yeah, I was going to say, like, it's know,

0:52:53 Thomas: A mistake, mm

0:52:54 Tom: And I understand that impulse, I do, and I'm not trying to sell you on anything, I'm just imagining myself in that role, like, would I sue the individual teacher? No, but, like, like, would I sue the organization for not having better safeguards?

I absolutely would, because, like, they need to have better, better safeguards, and maybe this put the fear of god in them, but like it could have put the fear and god of god and them to have better safegguards at the expense of your son's life, like, I just am like, I of, like, I do, I think about when my kids were in preschool, when you drop them off, and I, I can relate to that feeling of like, all right, these are good people and I trust them and they're going to take good care of my kids, but like if they had a policy that didn't prevent one of them from, like, wandering into the street, I'd be like, like, holy shit, man, like, this is just egregious negligence, it feels similar to me, and again, I'm not selling it to you, I'm just shocked, like, I, like, it's such an appalling story, it's so scary, I can't

0:52:57 Thomas: -hmm it's really the hardest thing to stomach is just literally, and this was again a lot of the the of Friday night, yeah like literally the the trauma of Friday night was, I kept thinking the sentence I would, I would keep telling people, like, when I was telling him what was happening, and I had to say, they fed Arlo his worst allergy, like, they gave him a sandwich of things that kill him. And it's just like that. That is really hard. It's really hard. I just I don't, I don't know, man. I just don't think I don't need money. And I don't think it matters in this instance. I mean, someone fucked up. Someone made a mistake. They have procedures that,

0:53:52 Eli: Seed butter, this is the hardest thing to stomach

0:53:53 Tom: It's hard to stomach yeah man yeah I know what you mean, no

0:54:23 Thomas: You know, it's tough. I, I don't know. Maybe I'm, maybe I'm wrong. I just, I Don't know that I'm and I'm I haven't made any final decisions. We'll see, you Know, who knows? Um, just yeah, I dunno. I don't care that much about like extracting money from, you k I care desperately about what happened. I

0:54:28 Tom: I'm not so, like, I said I'm not selling it, I'm just, right right no, I know, and you, I would just feel the need for to punish, and I know that that's a shitty impulse and I, I recognize that, but I would feel strong need to be like, yeah, it's not okay and you don't get away with it

0:54:49 Thomas: Yeah. As for pulling him out of the school, or whatever, I can't think of a safer place for him right now, like, is going to feed my son fucking anything, he'll actually just starve to death, they won't even feed him because they're, they're gonna be so terrified at that school, whereas I could move him to another school, who's gonna fucking, a, not, there isn't one, because we've already gone through, like, the several that, you know, there aren't many good options left at all and if there are any, you, it's starting from zero again, it's risking more people learning his allergies and fucking it up, like, I just, you, you know, I think he's, he's staying there.

0:54:50 Tom: Yeah yeah no that's good point no

0:55:21 Eli: I a fun little aside to you, sort know, of wrap things up with, about that, uh, allergy chart, because did you have these with your kids, where you'd have to give the allergies, and then in the classroom they have, like, a picture of it or whatever around the kid with the photograph

0:55:33 Tom: But my my kids didn't have any allergies, thankfully, so I don't remember that

0:55:36 Thomas: Yeah.

0:55:34 Eli: Yeah so we had to fill ours out when Max went to preschool, and as a joke, I wrote on, they were like, any foods he can't eat, and I wrote down blood sausage, and then we go in the first day, and there's all the kids, and my little Tucker, he's got, you know, cheese and peanuts, and they're little cartoon peanuts and a little cartoon cheese, and my son, who has no allergies, also has his picture up, and there's just a cartoon blood sausage next to him, I uh I deeply appreciated his preschool teacher for doing that, all

0:56:04 Tom: Oh

0:56:04 Thomas: That's amazing. Uh, yeah, man, we've alluded to it. You said it in the beginning. Are a lot of people out there. And again, this might've been me earlier in my life. And I don't know what this impulse is other than I think it correlates with, in general, just being a right wing piece of shit, which is other people's needs are a burden on you, even though they're not, you know, like that's that's really the attitude.

And I can tell you I've had conversations when I talk about Arlo's allergies where I have to get that fucking someone has taken it upon themselves to, you know, really interrogate how serious this whole thing is and make sure that, you Now, I'm not just imagining that he has an allergy. And oh, and actually maybe if he tries a little bit of it, it'll be fine, you know, and just you don't need to do that. You just don't. Maybe there's a 0.1 chance that you're going to give a parent who's already dealing with some sort of useful information, maybe there, maybe there's a tiny chance, um, of the time, 99.99 of the time I'm gonna be hating your fucking guts because we are managing this, we are dealing with this horror, it's the worst, and we didn't do anything for this to to happen. I have two children. We raised them exactly the same. Phoebe has no allergies. Arlo has allergies. I didn't, it's not because I cleaned my house too much. It's not cause I, you know, it's not cause I,

0:56:46 Tom: My god right yep

0:57:17 Thomas: I, I would have had her sucking on a peanut and I didn't have them do, it's nothing. It's random. Some amount of it is tied to not having exposure, like some amount of it. That's not this death sunflower allergy. That's not it. You know, that's, it just isn't. And you don't need to question what's going on. I would, I wouldn't wish this on anybody, but any thought I ever had of that attitude of like, oh, it's a pain that I, I can't eat peanuts and whatever, any, any amount of that, the minute I saw my son's face explode that one time completely left me. Cause you just seeing your kid like that is just truly a horror. I can't even describe it. I don't. So you just shut the fuck up. When someone tells you they have an allergy, when someone tells You that a man is following them and it's creepy, just shut Shut the fuck up and believe them and just say, yeah, wow, okay, what can I do? How can I help?

0:57:22 Eli: Yeah and Is its own episode. It genuinely, like, we could do an entire thing about this, especially when it comes to chronically ill kids, but like chronic illness in general, the entitlement of other people to lecture you about your child's Medical condition. Well, did you introduce them early? Because you got to introduce early, you know, they make these powdered packets now

0:58:18 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:58:25 Tom: But like even if that were The case, what if I didn't, oh, I'll just, oh, thanks for that advice, I'll get in my time machine and fix the Problem, that's bad advice, even if it were true, it requires you to go 88 miles an hour with a fucking flux capacitor to fix it

0:58:25 Eli: Yeah

0:58:27 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. I think this applies to a lot of things. Think in general, especially as men, there's a strong tendency to try to fix stuff, to try to, you now, be the provider of information. And society tells us as men that we are the people who know stuff. And not just men. And by all means, this happens to moms as well. Like, believe, know, from our wives' experience of the moms groups, you like are just god awful with this.

But in general, maybe when interacting with each other, what we can do is a little more asking questions in a genuine way and less telling people, oh, did you, did you do the exposure? OK, you can do this. Maybe just be like, oh shoot, that's that sucks.

Are there any, like, you ways that maybe someday he'll be able to, you he'll, he will be treated for the, you know, just ways that's like acknowledging the fact that obviously the people going through this are putting the fucking time and effort into trying to figure it out. They're putting a ton more than you have if you don't have this situation, you nothing wrong with asking questions in a polite way that acknowledges that.

But when you go into like, oh, you're, you are having a struggle with your tiny child that you, uh, you must not care about or look into much here. Let me provide my information, that's definitely better than whatever you have, that's that's where it doesn't work.

0:59:48 Eli: Or they're like, oh, he'll outgrow him, he'll outgrow, my niece's cousin's, sister's best friend's roommate when

0:59:53 Tom: Yeah I've heard

0:59:52 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. My you nailed it earlier. My mom said exactly. Oh, he'll grow out of it. He'll grow out of the sunflower one. It's very extreme. They do the blood test measures and they don't even have like a finite scale. It's not like on a scale of one to ten. It's like some sort of number. I don't even know what the science of it is of like the amount of reaction, you Sunflower was just like, yeah, it's like 11 billion out of what? I don't know. They don't, there's no end to it. That's just yeah, the fucking it did the smoky thing just blew up. Yeah.

1:00:20 Eli: They Dropped the sunflower into Arlo's blood, it boiled over. It actually just the beaker exploded. Arlo is Morbius now. We were going to sort of build up to that, but yeah, Arlo is Morbus.

1:00:35 Thomas: All

1:00:44 Eli: Alright, gentlemen, before we go, an important news update. I asked my local Indian place for the flatbread recipe, and they said I could only have it if I signed a contract promising not to tell anyone. I'm told it's a standard non-disclosure agreement.

1:01:00 Thomas: I've already seen that one. Darn. It was good, though. I think part of the dad joke bit is to tell jokes everyone's heard a thousand times. That's also being a dad joke.

1:01:01 Tom: Yeah. Yeah.

1:01:03 Eli: Damn. Yeah. That's important too so

1:01:14 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

1:01:54 Thomas: M Like, one throat clear, I'll be like, just to try to like solve it, and then if that doesn't solve it, I have, have to just die. I'm like, all right, well, I've had a good life. Yeah.

1:01:57 Tom: Yeah.

1:02:02 Eli: That's it yeah