DOD12: Is Chivalry Infantilizing? Or Is It... Whatever the Opposite Is... Adulterating? That Can't Be It

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:00 Thomas: Hey listeners, Thomas here. Before we get to today's episode, I just wanted to apologize. Some folks wrote in about the recent episode on chivalry where I told the story about the guy in the airplane, and they said that was fat shaming, that was hurtful to them. And you know, they're totally right. I went back and listened, and I just was so clumsy with my wording. I actually wanted to not fat shame, and I just botched it. I don't know if I was tired or COVID or what, or just being plain careless, but totally botched it instead of being funny in the sort of the unfortunate geometry of the situation was really what I wanted to emphasize. It wasn't that at all. It was totally fat shaming in a way that was not at all where I want to be as a show and how I want it to be. I want the show to make listeners feel. So I want to apologize for that and absolutely will strive to do better in the future. So I'm really sorry and thank you for the feedback and on with today's show.

0:01:22 Tom: To Dear Old Dads, the podcast that cranks the tunes and sings along even more when the kids have their friends in the car. I'm Tom Curry and I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Welcome gentlemen.

0:01:35 Eli: Sure!

0:01:35 Thomas: Well, I wanted to like launch into talking about COVID and you deliver that whopper of an intro, Tom. We could talk dad music for forever. I think I'll have to, ah, I think we'll have hold off on that.

0:01:46 Tom: We're gonna have to have a dad music episode we're going to to have to have a dad music episode, but your kids are younger, but I wrote this because like, know, I got teenagers and my stepson has a girlfriend.

0:01:47 Thomas: Yeah. Dad music special. We'll all your greatest dad hits.

0:01:58 Tom: And so it's wonderful to embarrass him a little bit. Like it's, it's the delight of my life to just embarrass him a little bit. Um, so I'd have to drive. I, they live about 20 minutes away. So I drive back and forth, I do the shuttle back and forth, and we get in my car and fucking every time I get in the car, and it's him and her, I'm like, cool, time to listen to some music, guys.

0:02:21 Tom: I pop that shit in and I'm jamming out, man, I am absolutely jamming up, I'll rock out with my, my stepdaughter on the way to camp this whole summer. Um, I put on uh Africa by Toto because she hates it.

0:01:58 Thomas: Oh, okay, I was going to ask you, like, what's your specific generation's dad music? I think we probably all three of us have a little bit different answer, maybe.

0:02:35 Eli: That was my question, yeah.

0:02:42 Tom: Well, So, yeah, Africa by Toto is not even mine, but I just I put it on because my stepdaughter hates it and then I pretend to karaoke lip sync it and I try to hand her the microphone in the back seat, the fake microphone, and she, she gets so mad she pushes the imaginary microphone away from me I fucking love it, it's my favorite, it is my favorite

0:02:44 Thomas: Yeah, that's a little older. It's a good bit. That's a that's a good bet. I like that bit a lot. That's that's fantastic.

0:03:01 Eli: I often... I worry sometimes that our dad music isn't gonna feel daddy enough for...

0:03:06 Thomas: Oh, I found some that does. I found something that does for me specific. So what what what do you think? You like you have a dad music that will be your version.

0:03:13 Eli: So my taste in music has been terrible for every generation. Like no one, you could, you could send me back to the 1940s and they'd be like, "You like him, loser, I hope you die in the war." Like, I've never had good music taste, and I've also had incredibly eclectic music tastes. Most of what I listen to for my own pleasure is, um, girl electronica and Phoebe Bridgers, right. And Phoebe's great, but not dad music, that's what I'm saying I if my kid's in the car, I can't turn around and be like, all right, well, here's some Mountain

0:03:19 Thomas: Oh, even better.

0:03:43 Thomas: Yeah, that's not dad music. That's yeah.

0:03:46 Tom: It's not

0:03:52 Eli: Goats to embarrass you.

0:03:54 Thomas: Well, What I always love about parenting, I bring this up all the time, which is that I feel like our imaginations are limited and we don't know what will be the thing 10 years from now or whatever, how, or how we'll even be perceived. What if sad Eli is like a dad trope eventually? What if it's because of our generation? What if our kids are like, "Yeah, I have one of those, you have a sad dad." Yeah, I'm a sad dead too. And it's just like, it's a whole trope of like dads who listen to Phoebe Bridgers in the car and cry, cry. And that's like, every kid is like, yeah, I have one of those Yeah, no, totally.

0:04:23 Tom: Not did

0:04:24 Eli: Don't you hate it when your dad plays new partner and you're just generally unaffected by it, but it means a lot to him?

0:04:30 Thomas: Yeah,

0:04:31 Tom: You guys, did, did your parents, did your dads listen to music that you hated as kids? I wonder if you guys had this, that you hate it as kids and then came around to and now you fucking love, Jesus.

0:04:31 Thomas: Um, oh, Not my dad, I will say this about my dad, again, once again, as I've covered, everything was exactly for him at all times. All music was his choice all the time, no matter what anybody else cared about. But fortunately he was really into oldies, which fucking rule. Oldies are, are just better than current music. I'm sorry. I know there's a lot of great, in terms of pop, there's, of music I love that's way better than that. But like, in terms of what's currently popular, if I had to go to any decade and it's like, you have to listen to only what's on the radio, like top 40, whatever, I would go to the 60s, no question. Like what was on the top 40 hits or whatever was so much fucking better in my opinion than today's, everything sounds exactly the same. They mathematically shown that everything, everything is collapsed down to like three fucking notes. It's awful. I hate it. So I'm really thankful.

0:04:57 Tom: But They're Really good, three notes. Thomas, they're The Best notes.

0:05:28 Thomas: Yeah. They're like the engineered three

0:05:31 Tom: We've just, we've narrowed it down to the three best notes.

0:05:30 Eli: Yeah,

0:05:32 Thomas: Notes. Yeah, they're like sugar, high fructose corn syrup. Like the notes are just extremely, you know, whatever appeals the fastest to people. But no, I adore oldies and I actually really appreciate that, that I was, that's what I grew up on because the music is so good. And my dad was a big Bob Dylan fan. I'm not as big big Bob Dylan fan, but like, I think that like Bob Dylan had a number of incredible songs and then like a mountain of crap that's not very good, but, like, well,

0:06:01 Eli: When other people sing Bob Dylan's songs, you can really appreciate them.

0:06:04 Tom: Oh.

0:06:05 Thomas: You know, and that's what's, oh, whatever, separate music discussion, but so I've appreciated that, but I gotta say, I found the dad music for me that's perfect. It's the perfect dad thing that when I play this around around my kids, it's going to be like, oh, fucking dad music. It's Dave Matthews band. It's, it's perfect. I listened to, I was, I was a pretty decent Dave Matthews fan in the nineties because the music is very interesting. Like it's actually good, well-written, well done musicians, all that kind of stuff. But listening to it now, I'm like, all right, this is stupid. Like it's the lyrics are terrible. The voice, his voice is annoying and weird. And it's a, it's very corny. Like the production is super corny and weird, which is, I think that's perfect dad music stuff like that's all the qualities you want in a dad music.

0:06:23 Eli: Yeah.

0:06:23 Tom: Okay.

0:06:49 Thomas: Is your kids being like this sounds stupid to me

0:06:49 Eli: It's just gonna It's gonna be problematic enough that'll embarrass them, yeah, that's good. Now, Tom, don't ruin this for me. Don't run this for me. I would like to guess what kind of music Tom's dad listened to, okay?

0:06:53 Thomas: Oh and

0:06:56 Tom: Oh I 100% think you'll get this wrong. Okay.

0:07:04 Eli: I think it was a single John Philip Sousa record, which you were allowed to play once a year on your birthday from beginning to finish in total silence.

0:07:17 Tom: Oh, that's, that's rough, that's tough, no.

0:07:20 Eli: Threw

0:07:20 Thomas: Anything else he listened to once and threw it in the trash can, it was like yeah I'm done

0:07:23 Eli: In the garbage

0:07:23 Tom: I was I already heard that song why would I listen listen to that song twice my

0:07:24 Eli: Snapped it over his knee right yeah

0:07:24 Thomas: Yeah he was Like it was fine, I didn't hate it, I'm just, I'm done with that song yeah

0:07:29 Eli: It's fine sure

0:07:29 Tom: Dad listened to uh, like John Denver a lot, um, which I absolutely fucking hated as a kid, and then like as an adult, and not even that long ago, like a handful of years ago, I listened to like Annie's Song by John Denver, and I was like, if I ever write something half that beautiful, I'll just put my pen down forever and never pick it up again.

Like for this episode, uh, we wanted to circle back to the, um, conversation we were having about chivalry, and I thought a good way to do that would be, I'm actually going to read from the blog that I write to my kids. Couple of people have asked where you can find it. Anybody can read it. It's at dangerousletters.wordpress.com. So anybody that's interested can head over there and read it if you like. Called Dangerous Letters because my son's middle name is Danger.

So, so I thought it would just be a clever play on words. But read, but this, this is kind of, give us some jumping off point. Being a gentleman. Boys, you will grow up to be gentlemen. On, on this, I am not flexible. A gentleman is ultimately about respect. It's about respect for you, and it's about respect for your significant other. Behaving as a gentleman is about commanding respect by giving respect. This is important. All men crave respect.

I don't know why this is true, but it is. You cannot ever expect to get what you don't give, and if you are desirous of the respect and adoration of your partner, you have to show respect and adoration. You cannot behave cavalierly or carelessly with your own actions and expect to receive something else in return. Who respects a man who doesn't show respect? No one worth a moment of your time, though. The bar is, to be blunt, not high.

Behaving as a gentleman is, as I write this, mostly a lost art, which means that by the time you read this, it will be damn near archaic. This in no way means you are off the hook. But a few tips, and you should be set. Open the door. If there are double doors, it can be awkward to get both. Don't sweat it. Don't make it weird, but get the first door. It's the gesture that's important.

Walking with a woman, offer your hand or, better yet, your arm. On the side of the street that is nearest to the traffic. Her car door. Wait for her to get situated, then gently shut the door. This gesture is ruined if you shut the door on her dress or coat. Pull out her chair at the restaurant or bar. This is not necessary and can be weird at home, don't be weird. Hold her coat for her to put on. Always offer to carry things. All the things. If she refuses, insist once and then let it go.

0:07:30 Thomas: Yeah yeah, I

0:10:04 Tom: Pay. Sorry guys, you're the man and you will pay. Don't worry, you get paid more on average. The world is still super sexist and it's in our favor. Don't be cheap. It will only attract cheap women. Drive. Unless you are injured or drunk, drive. Make plans. Everyone likes a relaxing night at home, but just as often, if not more, you should make plans and be on time and be reliable to them. Do not keep a woman waiting. Arrive on time. Do what you say you are going to do. If you have to change plans, do it with as much notice as possible.

0:10:44 Tom: So that was my advice, advice that I wrote to my boys, Finnegan and Eamon, on being gentlemanly. And so I thought that might give us kind of just some jumping off points to talk through on what your thoughts are as far as chivalry or gentleman-like behavior.

0:11:02 Thomas: Well, there's so much there. I How long ago did you write this?

0:11:03 Eli: 1954.

0:11:05 Tom: Wrote this one, I can tell you, I wrote this one probably, what was that, Eli?

0:11:07 Eli: I said

0:11:08 Thomas: Yeah. The year was 1937. Yeah.

0:11:11 Eli: 1954, 54, I'm

0:11:13 Tom: No, I don't know the exact year, sometime 2016, maybe 2016.

0:11:19 Thomas: Okay. I was wondering if there's anything that you have changed your mind on or don't agree with still, if it holds up. It's fine.

0:11:19 Tom: No no I feel, I feel like these are good, you know, again, this is a blog of advice for for my boys specifically, so I don't know, necessarily this is, although I think it's good general advice. No, I, I think that this is, uh, this fine starting place on gentlemanly behavior. I, and I still feel like there's no, nothing to be lost in behaving this way. Yeah.

0:11:25 Thomas: Yeah. Okay.

0:11:46 Eli: Curious as to like, because I was thinking about this today because we were like, yeah, we want to talk more about this yesterday when we recorded the first episode, um, and I was thinking about it today specifically, I was thinking about the way in which I treat my wife, um, and I was very lucky in that she actually echoed exactly the words to me, is, you know, she sat down, uh, she got comfortable, our pug crawled on her lap, and she, she was like, will you get me some water?

"Get you some water." So I go into the other room and pour her water. And she said, you know, one of the things I love about you is that you pamper me. And for me, I feel like a lot of what is chivalry in my life, or a lot of what is chivalry or gentlemanly behavior in my life, is about pampering my wife. I love, not just pampering my wife, but I love pamperingmy friends, everybody in my life.

And what struck me so much, why I loved that blog so much, is that it, it defines so much of how I treat everyone in my life, not just

0:12:42 Eli: Necessarily women. And obviously you were targeting for a very specific audience and a very specific relationship with that audience, right? It's not like you wouldn't tell your boys to drive their male friends around or, you know, anything like that. But yeah, I think it's fascinating. You know, much of chivalry is just treating people kindly and showing people that they're loved and respected.

0:12:42 Tom: Yeah Yeah.

0:13:07 Thomas: Extra stuff leftover is what I'm interested in and is what I'm not sure holds up, you know? Know, stuff like driving, you first of all, do you want to advise Eli to drive anyone as a, as a man? Like, is there, is There ever a, what if one of your sons is Eli?

0:13:12 Tom: Well no I think I well I again this is from I I'm gonna presume that my kids are competent in some way that they don't drive like like they are blind, you

0:13:26 Eli: Wow. Mm

0:13:26 Thomas: That's a big assumption. No, but I guess I'm talking about not, I'm not talking about you specifically with your kid. I'm trying to get the concept of, you Know, gentlemanliness that we're kind of using your essay as a jumping off point and trying to broaden that to everybody. There's certain stuff like that. And I think some of the flashpoints, you know, you mentioned last episode and I didn't get a chance to say it and I was going to say for this episode, which is you said that the people who harp on against chivalry tend to all be men in your experience. And what I did in preparation for this episode is I was Googling everything I could to try to find some feminist writing on on this topic, and what I found was a pretty, I mean, people can go back and check what they find, um, it's kind of a hard thing to Google and be like, what's the feminist thought on that, you know what I mean, like it's not, there's

0:13:35 Tom: Yeah right as a jumping off, yeah, okay.

0:14:14 Eli: -hmm. Sure.

0:14:14 Thomas: So many Different publications, websites, and feminist writing on it, and I went through probably 10, 15 of them, and it seemed to be a remarkable 50/50 split. Like, it seemed to be most, of them were like, no, chivalry doesn't have to be dead because chivalry is just these nice things, you know, like just these polite things, just these being a good person. And then the other half was like, yeah, part of equality is like, I don't want to be put on a pedestal. I don't want to da da da. And it was about 50 50 from my perception and check my work. But like, that's what I found. And I think it kind of depends on what you focus on.

You know, if you focus on, as you're saying, Eli, it's just kind of the nice behavior that's like nice to do to anybody. Yeah. Obviously nobody would say that that should go away and you should be an asshole. It's just, it'S the overall, I guess, attitude and mindset that a woman is a different class of person that needs to be treated a certain way by men. And And, I think that some of that, I think kind of has to go in my opinion.

I don't think all of of it maybe, but like in modern world, I think if there's too much of that attitude that too many people have, it turns into a of a weird condescending pedestalling in my opinion.

0:14:15 Eli: Yeah.

0:14:24 Tom: That is interesting yeah think the way to avoid that, to sort of have your cake and eat it too, is you, is to read the room So, You know the point of any gesture is for that gesture to have an impact on the person that you're engaging with, right? Yeah, absolutely. If you know that the person that you are, you know, it doesn't, like if it's Anna, right, if Anna doesn't want to hold my arm. Right. If she is busy tapping out scales or what have you. And Yeah. If she's blinking feverishly because of her captor, you know.

0:15:32 Eli: Yeah,

0:15:32 Thomas: Right.

0:15:54 Eli: Morse, because I'm insisting on driving.

0:15:55 Thomas: Yeah. Sending SOS. Well,

0:16:05 Tom: Yeah, or like or if somebody just really likes to drive, then you offering to take the burden of driving from them is not a gesture they'll appreciate. And so you have to read the room.

0:16:16 Thomas: But I wonder, Tom, what if you had had a part? What if when you met Haley, Haley was like, "I got two rules. I drive and I pay. I, how do you, you think you would have handled that? I'm curious.

0:16:25 Tom: Uh, I think it would be, I don't know you if, know, if that's, that's actually genuinely a hard question. I'm not trying to dodge it. That's a genuinely hard question because our dynamic that is, that isn't that it's like, how would I respond to Haley if she was a different person? Like, I dunno, like, Like, you know, that would be, because that would be so wildly different. But

0:16:39 Eli: Yeah. And

0:16:25 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Totally. But That's The thing I think about too is maybe that's a component of why you guys are compatible and, like, you know, it's gonna, that's gonna really be different depending on who you are, you

0:16:52 Eli: One of the things that I love about having witnessed Tom's relationship and Haley's relation to Tom and Haney's relationship is that it is so different from my own. And one of the things that I find, I hate to say adorable because that, that feels like diminutive and minimizing, but like, I got to watch you watch you and still today, watch you genuinely court Haley, right. From like the initial trips to the posts on Facebook, to the photos, to the Instagrams, to the flowers, to the poems, like, and it's not how my relationship evolved, but it's, it's so genuinely and organically how, uh, relationship evolved. And it's, it, I love it to death and I completely understand how courtship and chivalry was a deep and important part of it, um,

0:17:39 Thomas: I want to ask you then, Eli, what do you see as the differences? Because I kind of perceive you that way as well, but I want to know what, to your mind, is the differences between what, what Tom's doing, what, what you're doing. No?

0:17:49 Eli: I, and again, I, I don't want to project onto Tom's relationship, so Tom, jump in and be like, hey, no, that isn't what actually happened.

0:17:52 Tom: No, that's fine. Yeah.

0:17:55 Thomas: I think We can all agree that's how Tom's relationship, like, We're All, yeah. There's no and it's Delightful, yeah.

0:17:57 Eli: Exactly. Look, I've seen several

0:17:58 Tom: Yeah, I offer, I offer no counterpoint.

0:18:00 Eli: Facebook posts. Okay.

0:18:02 Tom: Yeah, yeah, I will offer no counterpoint,

0:18:02 Eli: Okay.

0:18:02 Thomas: It's Delightful. No, There's Not, I'm Curious How, but I would have kind of said the same thing about you, Eli, and as he is very doting, is very, as you say, pampering, is all, but like, what's kind of the difference in your mind there?

0:18:03 Eli: Nailed it. Yeah.

0:18:03 Tom: Yeah!

0:18:13 Thomas: But

0:18:13 Eli: So I would say the difference is that when Anna and I first met, she was incredibly hesitant with that behavior. Incredibly hesitant. Right. And not receptive to it. Right? We would like hang out and I would give her compliments, and is a joke between us now, but I would gave her a compliment, she would be like, "Thank you," like really loud and really assertively because she had no idea how to deal with it. And, like, part of it was that she had a series of shitty boyfriends, part of it is that we spent a long time pretending not to be in a relationship before we were, right, which is a thing of, you know, again, because Tom, Tom loves someone and instantly he's out, say, plants a lance in your front yard, and he's like, "I love you, from now on you will never pay" for beans. Exactly.

0:18:58 Thomas: That's That's what he did with me, that's what he Said, "I love it." To this day I Treasure that.

0:19:00 Tom: Well, I love you, man!

0:19:04 Thomas: Lance. Wow.

0:19:04 Tom: Yeah!

0:19:01 Eli: Exactly. Right, whereas Anna And I were, like, super duper, like, playing it cool for such, for such a long time. And, like, we had had a conversation early on, um, which, oh gosh, I, you know, I don't feel like I need permission to post photos of my wife, but I do often feel like I need commission to tell the stories of earlier in our relationship, because while my wife did like me, none of the things she said or did made it seem that way, so I kind of get into a Tom telling stories about his childhood mode where I'll be like, "And then she said," and people will be like, "Wow, so, like, when did the head injury happen that changed her into liking you?"

But, so, We, we had a conversation very early on, um, and this is, like, this was like my detra at the beginning of our relationship, we had had a conversation very early on, a very early date where she turned to me, we, like, met up and we're gonna, like, have some bro coffee, like, have a buddy coffee, we'll meet up for coffee, she turned to me like instantly and she was like, "Hey, is this a date? Are we dating? Are you trying to date me right now?" And I was like,

0:19:11 Thomas: Wow.

0:19:46 Tom: Oh, shit!

0:20:10 Eli: Oh, Um, and And What

0:20:10 Tom: Shits. It's so aggressive.

0:20:13 Thomas: She has her phone out with 911 dial, but not quite sent on the full

0:20:15 Eli: Right, Exactly. She had a a gomja bar to my neck at the the same time, uh, and

0:20:21 Tom: Like, I swallowed an air tag before I met up with you. You can't.

0:20:24 Eli: I was like, "Look, I, I think you have a lot of people trying to date you right now, uh, am one of them? I do want to date you, but I just want to be nice to you." Um, I meant it, I meant what I said, but it also meant that we were in a friend place for a very long time, even even after we got closer and closer, and so it took a really long time for us to be like relationship now, right, because I, I did not want to cross that line, and I also didn't want to be the the guy who was using friendship to get into a relationship, right, I genuinely just wanted to be nice to her, but as our feelings grew for each other, um, she very angrily announced that she loved me the first time she did, um, we were

0:20:34 Thomas: Disclosure.

0:21:12 Eli: Hanging out pretty

0:21:12 Thomas: Like you beat her at a board game or damn.

0:21:14 Tom: How do you angrily announce that? Oh, that's great.

0:21:15 Eli: Much so We were hanging out

0:21:18 Tom: Was she mad at herself for feeling that way or what?

0:21:18 Eli: And think so, and and honestly, can you blame her? We were hang out and I could tell something was bothering her, and I was sort of like trying to, because you you

0:21:25 Tom: I love it. It's bothering

0:21:30 Thomas: I know.

0:21:30 Tom: Her. This is my favorite story of all time that

0:21:31 Thomas: No, this

0:21:31 Eli: Know When Someone's Got something Bugging Them

0:21:33 Thomas: Is like how you found out about the tumor she had. This is an Eli

0:21:35 Eli: Exactly It felt, it felt like bad news, and I could read, I Could, I can Read my Wife Now I could read her, then, and I was like, "Hey, like, is everything okay?" She was like, "Yes, it's not a big deal." And I was like, "All right, well, you know, dude, just talking about some postage stamps or whatever. And so, I, but you know, I give it a little bit, it's very obviously stilted, and I'm like, "Hey, what's the-" and she goes, "I, I'm in love with you." And I, was, I am also in love. I feel like this moment would go different. I'm, I was trying to morph it. I was trynna twist it in my head.

0:21:40 Thomas: -sized tumor in her life.

0:21:49 Tom: I'm

0:22:07 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:22:08 Eli: I was like, do I match the energy? Yeah, well, yeah, well I'm in love with you. Or do I do like a, ha, guz, fraba, why yes, I also happen to be in love with you, so interestingly, like, me and Anna's relationship, again, like, I am incredibly doting on her, but it, it took years for us to get to that place, and there are still functions, and, and there are still, like, that we have as a couple where she doesn't, again, just because she didn't grow up with that model of the relationship, where we're still learning sort of how we navigate those things. And I find that so interesting.

And one of the reasons I love your thing about chivalry is the confidence that comes with it, right? Because, like, again, it's, it's very consensual, and there's a bunch of times in the blog where you're like, "Ask permission, insist once, and if she says no, drop it." Right? Like, all that stuff is super important. But there's also something beautiful to it that I didn't get to do.

I just sort of, like, crept in and was like, "I sure would like to start paying for lunches," because I'm making a bunch of money as a magic salesman, and you teach toddlers how to do music.

And again, for months and months, she was like, "We're splitting this." So I had to stop taking her nice places because I realized I was just fucking her over financially every day, because I'd be like, "Please, my love, allow me to take you to Le Foie, it is a restaurant where everything's in the dark and they only serve maple apricot nectar." And she'd be, "That sounds great." And then at the end of the night, I'd be like, "Let me get this." And she'll be like, "No, this toddler money burns where this gold bricker walks." Yeah,

0:22:18 Thomas: That's awesome.

0:23:44 Tom: Yeah, that's an interesting piece. And I, you know, I guess, like Thomas, I promise you, asked me, I've been thinking about it. Like, would I feel? I would, I would not, I will tell you that I would not like it if Haley had said, "I want to pay for everything." Would not like it if Haley said, "I wanna pay for anything," that because I'm, I know what I make and I know what she makes, and it's not fair. You know what I mean, it's, it's not right.

0:23:54 Thomas: Yeah, Right, yeah, totally. Totally. That was the same situation I was in when Lydia and I first started dating, because she had just come off of getting a master's, and so didn't have a job yet. And it was like, "Yeah, I'll pay for that." And she paid for, like, a couple of things because she wanted to. I was like, "Cool, that sounds great." But I'm such a like logic brain person. I'm like, well, my quantity of money is greater than yours. I shall pay.

0:24:22 Tom: But but I will say that that isn't the only reason I want to I want to like be honest about it. Like, that's not the only reasons. And you said something that like I want to circle back to because I think it like it's it's maybe a distinction, but it's something that I have thought about. And it's that it's not necessarily that a woman is sort of a different kind of person that needs to be treated differently. But I do think that it is different in this world to be a woman. And it is not different the same, and it is not different better. It's different harder. It is different harder in almost every way to wake up and to be a woman in the world. You have less opportunity in many respects in the workplace. You know, there is a wage gap. There is, I lack of of bodily autonomy. There is a danger in parking in a parking garage, for God's sake.

0:25:22 Eli: Yeah,

0:25:22 Thomas: We could literally spend the rest of this podcast listing the Thing. Like, honestly,

0:25:24 Tom: Right. Just outlining that. Right. Yeah. So I think, well, God, I here am trying to tell somebody in a courtship that you're safe with me, that I've got your best interest, that I will be here, that I have your best interests at heart, that making those gestures is a way to say here in this space things aren't harder for you, here in this space it's easier for you, because everywhere else that you go it's harder for me than it is for me, and I think that is an extension of that concept for me of chivalry or being a gentleman. It's like in this, in this tiny microcosm that we create together, your world is easier. What

0:25:27 Thomas: Yeah. Oh.

0:26:06 Thomas: I love that, and I don't want to at all like say you shouldn't do that or take that away from you as a, but as a society, I think it's interesting to note that the connection is actually the opposite. The thing is, the more chivalrous we have been as a society, the less rights women have had, and

0:26:22 Tom: I think, I think we kind of gave them that shit as like a, like a bullshit, like

0:26:26 Thomas: Pedestalling. I think it's why pedestalling is an important concept to at least think about, because it's It's, it's treating them as, it's, and I'll tell you where I think it would maybe hit home for you, Tom, possibly, is like, if, you know, let's say, think about your workplace. Maybe, I, if there's somebody higher up than you that's a woman, doesn't, wouldn't it feel weird if it's like, "And also, I need to do all these things over the top for chivalrous her because I'm a man, she's a women. Wouldn't that kind of interfere a little bit? And, I, ability to be taken seriously and treated as an equal at place of work. You know what I mean? And I think that's what a lot of the feminists I was reading are getting at,

0:26:31 Tom: With Speak to

0:27:03 Thomas: If, sure,

0:27:03 Tom: That in a direct, I, hopefully A direct way. So this happened a few, maybe two months ago, give or take. There was a work function, um, there was, uh, a bunch of folks that were there that were at my level or above my level, um, so we had a dinner, and we had, we, we had had a meeting, and then we walked about three blocks to a dinner in Chicago. And then after the dinner, it was dark, and we had to walk back to our cars, to the parking garage.

Admittedly, the woman that I'm going to refer to was at my level, at, she was not above my level, but she was at the level of the person that I was talking to.

She was at, at my company, at the, in the company, um, I absolutely walked her, even though I didn't have, you know, I walked her back to her car at a different level of the parking garage than I was parked, and made sure she was situated before I went and found my own car, and I think that that's not something Like, out of care Out of keeping with it, doesn't change that power

0:28:03 Tom: Dynamic I Don't think it pedestals Her

0:27:57 Thomas: No, that's great. Yeah, absolutely. Let me give it, let me give, I think I thought of an analogy that maybe, maybe will help. And, and again, I, I want to make sure that like, want to emphasize, and I mean this, that I'm not targeting your behavior, Tom. I'm talking about like, as a society, it's, it for example, I've realized this with Phoebe, we, and I think all three of us are the same, at least, and especially when you had small kids, Tom, um, way we treat our kids, you could take an angle of it. That's like, yeah, I do everything for Phoebe and Arlo because, you know, I want them to be, to feel the same things you just said. It's going to be saving this house. It's gonna be good.

But at the same time, implicit in the fact that I'm opening doors for them, I'm carrying them around, I'm putting their clothes on for them is a mindset that I need to do these things for them because they can't, because they are less capable than I am.

And it's true to a certain extent, but I'll tell you what, this isn't a topic that I even thought I was going to mention in connection with this conversation, but I've realized that like, I'm doing that with Phoebe too much. Like, not because she's a girl, but because she'S older and she'S maturing and she's like, all still do

0:28:07 Tom: Yeah. No, No, It's fine. I think I want To be challenged on It too, you know. Yeah.

0:29:02 Tom: Right.

0:29:02 Thomas: Stuff for her where she's like, no, I can do this. Like I, I want to put on my jammies. Like I want to, she's like, I want to do all these things. I want try to, and I'm like, because it's most of the time as parents, I'll speak for you guys. Most of the times we're just fucking exhausted, trying to get through the night kind of thing, like to bedtime. And so you're like, Like, no, I know you can do it, but if you do it it takes 15 minutes. If I do it it takes literally a second. Like, I just want to fucking get through this. But I have to fight. I have not to do that. Like, very importantly need to give her and both of them when Arlo's older too. He's doing that with some stuff because he's getting big. But like, give them the opportunity to thrive and be full humans themselves. Again, I want to emphasize a million percent. This is not what I'm saying you're doing, Tom. It's what I'm seeing as a whole on society.

0:29:02 Tom: Right.

0:29:15 Eli: Well,

0:29:17 Tom: No.

0:29:43 Tom: No, I got You, I Right.

0:29:45 Thomas: I think the patriarchy, that kind of thing, is, is in evidence there. You know, like, in The time of chivalrous fucking knights and all that, the attitude was that these are creatures that can't, our protection and need, then, like, all these kind of attitudes that I think, then, um, in other things, and in certain discriminatory ways, and all that. So

0:30:07 Eli: I

0:30:07 Tom: So I Hear what you're saying, and I've heard that, I've heard a similar sentiment, and I have thought about that. I think, I think a couple of things, I think you're absolutely right that at the times where chivalry or gentlemanly behavior was the most, like, socially reinforced, were the times where probably it was the least egalitarian points of society, and I think very often that kind of behavior is offered to act as a smokescreen or a consolation prize, um, sort of, um, say, "Well, you know, we do all these things," and, and so, you are kind of the, the smokescreens in front of the fact that that women have no real opportunities and no real autonomy and all that stuff.

I think, absolutely, that historically that there is a case to be made there. I think that we are still at a place in history that is vastly less egalitarian, and we would all agree with that, than I think we sort of pretend that it is. I think we have a lot of pretense toward gender egalitarianism that, that is, in practice, not even remotely the case.

And I think we can have a sort of conscious chivalry that still has a socially, interpersonally valuable element to it, that doesn't, to your point, act as a sort of bullshit smokescreen, pedestalling that we do while we strip them of all of the actual rights and, you know, power that women should have, because I think that was the way it was before, right?

It's like, "Well, you know, I'll strip you of all of these rights and take away your ability to, you know, own property and to vote and to have it, but I will, you, hold the fucking door open for you," you know, and I'll make these, like, meaningless pieces of your life better.

0:31:51 Thomas: I, I'm making the case that it's slightly more causal than that. That it's, that reason that we didn't have rights was because of this same mindset, that they needed to be coddled. So I think it's a little more causal, but I want to make sure Eli gets a chance to jump in. Cause I think you and I've been going back for.

0:32:02 Tom: Oh no, I don't think so. Yeah,

0:32:06 Eli: So, I I also think a third angle to take this that is really interesting is that predators and something that women are very aware of is that predators use chivalry as an excuse all the time. Uh, know, one of the things that's, it's like really interesting, we have lots of female friends in the Internet space. Of course, my wife is a woman in the public Internet space, and absolutely every predatory or inappropriate conversation begins with like, "Hello, good evening. I hope it's not too much to say that you are a beautiful lady."

And that's because predators often use chivalry as a smokescreen for them to get close or for them to victimize. And one of the things that is really interesting for us to navigate as fathers teaching sons, because we're all fathers teaching sons is exactly what Tom touched on, which is how communicate that you are safe with me, right? Because that is one of the chief things you need to communicate in the early part of a romantic relationship at this point. And it can be really scary because certain chivalrous actions, like let me walk to your car, can be incredibly predatory if taken the wrong way.

I, of so the examples that I give all the time is, so take like acting classes around New York and stuff, and I always pay, I pay for my male friends, I pay for my female friends, I paid for everything, and I would bring a partner a few years ago a coffee, I'd be like, oh, let me get you a coffee, and then I'd obviously pay for it, I would obviously pay for it, and I paid for it one time, and she said, hey, I know, no, you always do that with good intentions.

I'm going to give you extra vocabulary to add into that. I know you're totally fine, but here's what you need to add. So now, when I pay for someone's coffee who I don't super know well, or if I take someone to lunch, I say, if it wouldn't make you uncomfortable, I would love to pay the check, because there are certain people who have been exposed to men who create a obligatory relationship based

0:32:14 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah? Right,

0:32:40 Tom: Absolutely.

0:34:10 Eli: On paying for something, thing. Um, that they become afraid or uncomfortable in those situations, uh, and again, like, it comes from a totally good place, for me, I don't want to stop getting the check, right? That's the other thing too, is like, I completely want to respect someone's boundaries, but, you know, I have friends, a lot of my friends are much, much younger than me, they're like in their early 20s, so if we go to lunch and they try to go dutch with me who's ordered six entrees and 12 desserts, I'm like, hey, hey, man, you're going to have to mortgage your not house. You're going have to take it. You're gonna have to refinance your kidneys. Please let

0:34:11 Thomas: Right, right. Oh, I know. Yeah your

0:34:37 Tom: Yeah.

0:34:44 Eli: Me take you to lunch.

0:34:44 Thomas: Student Student loans that you're never paying off. Yeah, exactly. Hold

0:34:46 Eli: But I think at the core of it, and I think this is where the two worldviews, I don't want to say conflict, but I think this is the idea that there is a set of behaviors you can do to demonstrate you are safe, that you are safe and that you understand that it is harder to be be a woman than it is to be a man. And those behaviors are chivalry. And and then on the other side is, it is harder to be a woman than it is to be a man, and enacting these older codes of behavior by definition separates women from men and reminds them that they're in a lower position sociologically.

0:35:23 Thomas: Right.

0:35:23 Eli: No.

0:35:24 Thomas: I think what Tom said is key. I think Tom when he said read the room, I really do think that's key, because I, I don't think there is a quote unquote set of things you can do to signal to a woman that you are safe. I actually don't think that exists. I think it's right.

0:35:36 Eli: I was, I was saying like, here are the two ideas. I don't think either of them is true. I was just saying, like, there's this on one side and that on the other.

0:35:39 Thomas: Right, Right. Right. To contradict you to jump in and elaborate like on that. Like, I think that maybe combining that with what Tom said, it's about reading the room and know and figuring out who you're talking to and what will make them feel safe. I really Think that that varies person to person, because as you say, you know, there could be somebody who's had that past, that traumatic past with someone who acted like a gentleman in order to gain their trust and then was abusive. And they might read certain things as like really scary, or there could be the literal opposite, like it could be somebody who was unfortunately the, the variable that's the same in all this is that shitty men are there, but it's just how, how they're shitty in different ways, you know, like maybe there's a shitty man who's just outright shitty and never was a gentleman, and that might trigger someone in a different way, and yeah.

0:35:54 Tom: Yes. Right.

0:35:55 Eli: Right. Right. Cavalcade of shitty men.

0:36:25 Thomas: It's, there's every category of shitty man, that's that's a given. And so I do think it's combining the two ideas and using you, Tom's, uh, of really really reading the room and knowing, like, okay, is this going to be the kind of thing that will make someone feel safe? And is it not? And it's very difficult, think I that for good reason, you very difficult to like do X thing and therefore make a woman feel safe with you. Like, I think it's just about being safe for an extended period of time and, and building that trust, you know? Maybe I'm taking too dismal a look at the world, but I do think that, yeah.

0:36:50 Eli: Right.

0:36:54 Tom: No, I think you're exactly right. I, yeah, no, I think you're exactly right, I think if you were to say like, like here are this, like in any, in any social circumstance, if you were to say like, here are the seven things you have to do and you'll make everybody happy, that's it's nonsense. It's like always nonsense. I mean, they, one of the, like, if you read like how to win friends and influence people, you can sum up the entire book as pay fucking attention.

0:36:56 Thomas: Yeah. Right.

0:36:56 Eli: Yeah. Right. Right.

0:37:16 Tom: Right. And like, if you want to read the room, if you want to know, how do I make somebody feel safe? If you want a series of acts to perform, you'll never arrive at them, but it's actually not hard. It's just listen, pay attention and listen. People are very comfortable telling you what makes them comfortable. They will make that abundantly clear. And I think like from this conversation, like the heart of like what I would propose chivalry or being a gentleman would entail is very much just like read the room, listen, do the things that make somebody feel like you are respecting and paying attention to them and that you're making them feel. And if it's the set of like old school shit, because like, that's kind of easy, socially coded stuff that is probably falling by the wayside as society evolves, then like do that stuff. If that stuff means less to the person that you're with or talking to, then do other things.

0:37:29 Thomas: Yeah.

0:37:35 Eli: Yes.

0:38:12 Thomas: Well, some

0:38:14 Tom: I think of your example about the airplane. Like, it would have meant very little to Lydia for you to take that seat. If you had taken that seat in the same way that she didn't even notice that it was something you were apologizing for, had you taken that seat, it would've been a gesture that didn't actually have a tremendous amount of impact. But you know Lydia enough to know that like it would have, some I'm trying I'm trying here, Thomas, I'm

0:38:34 Thomas: Should have seen the guy, it would it would have had some, some impact Yeah, but yeah, you're trying to help

0:38:40 Eli: I'm trying to throw you a bum.

0:38:40 Thomas: I appreciate that you try I

0:38:40 Tom: Handing it to you on a fucking platter, man.

0:38:42 Thomas: I deserved So much more scoring than you guys gave me for that story. I think you've been too easy on me. No, I hear you, but like, I also think that some of this may be, be fundamental, and it may be a result of our upbringing, our broader culture, because I'm out here in California and I actually think there may be some impact to that. Like, example, when parents really pressured me to go to the bullshit Catholic school that my sister, my older sister went to, and she went there and we weren't even Catholic, but she went there and converted and then came back and converted my mom, and I says, so everybody's fucking hardcore Catholic now. And I was, I was pressured to go there, there, and and I was a freshman in high school, and it was like a knife's edge. I actually really wonder if I could do some sort of Black Mirror-esque thing and like see what would have happened had I gone the other way.

And like, because when you're an impressionable freshman in high school, I was still conservative, and I wasn't, I was an atheist, but like, you know, I still didn't, I didn't care that much about it, I still know, you kind of thought, uh, religion would be cool if it, it was real. And so I, any freshmen going to, especially a sheltered country boy like me, going to any college environment, it seems like magic.

It's like, oh my God, this place is fucking amazing, look at all the things there. And what they had was just very basic things that any college would have, which is some amount of like personal freedom and like ability to do anything, you know, but, but it reason I bring it up is that environment was, was extremely, extremely chivalrous. You all know these rules about like what women, women couldn't do, what men should do, all these, not, not always rules, but at least norms, but actually

0:39:14 Tom: Jesus,

0:40:12 Eli: Yeah.

0:40:12 Thomas: A lot of rules too, like, and

0:40:13 Eli: No. I mean, look at BYU and shit.

0:40:14 Tom: Yeah, you're right,

0:40:16 Thomas: These right-wing fucking uber religious environments is where, is what I associate this chivalry stuff with, personally, in my, and and I think that like where I am, um, I was just envisioning, I think kind of how you were doing, Tom, with my hypothetical. I was envisioning kind of the other way. And I think I just wouldn't be compatible with a woman who had an extreme idea of like, no, you have to wait on me hand and foot. Like, this is the, this is how you court me. You need to wait. You see that sometimes in like the dating profiles that people post online, you know, and I, my reaction is always like, okay, I'll just not, like, I'll find somebody else. Cause I'm not, I'm not interested in that dynamic.

0:40:54 Eli: Thank you for the, the warning, oh,

0:40:57 Thomas: Like, and I, I I'm I talking about an extreme level of that though, you know, like, uh, and the and I think it is kind of fundamental. And the last thought I wanted to put on that is as I was envisioning this, I do not think that I could or really should turn around tomorrow and become more like a Tom. Like, I think its fundamental to who you are. Like, think the way our personalities are, it it would not mesh with the rest of my personality to be Be this like old-timey gentleman chivalrous guy. It just wouldn't. I don't know. And I've been pondering that these

0:40:55 Tom: Yeah, for sure, yeah, right, yeah.

0:41:00 Eli: Yeah, Oh,

0:41:19 Tom: Right, you'd have to get a

0:41:26 Thomas: Last couple of days.

0:41:26 Tom: Handlebar mustache, and it would

0:41:27 Thomas: Well, that part would be great. I would like that.

0:41:27 Tom: Be a whole thing. Yeah,

0:41:30 Eli: Oh, Patreon goal, Thomas will spend an entire day being chivalrous and refuse to answer any questions. Lydia asks about why, and by same reversal, Tom, you have to be a bro husband for 24 hours, just, like you know, what's up dude, high five Hailey on your way out of the house. I was trying to think of whatever the opposite is.

0:41:37 Thomas: About why? Yeah.

0:41:52 Thomas: I totally don't do that. But okay. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. No,

0:41:58 Eli: Can we also just take a moment to acknowledge that Catholic converts are by far the worst kinds of Catholic? I know, that's more meant for our more other shows, but is there anyone more willing to tell you what the diocese of Arch Higgledy Piggleddy has declared in the third annum than someone who's been Catholic for four and a half minutes?

0:42:03 Thomas: Oh, my God. Yes. Yeah,

0:42:06 Tom: Oh, I mean,

0:42:19 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, they're hardcore too.

0:42:20 Eli: Yeah,

0:42:21 Tom: Isn't that true of any fucking convert though, because like, they haven't, they're just not tired of it yet, like, they're not exhausted by having grown up in it, it's not like generate they're not keisters in it yet, they're just like, fuck, you're just like, all in this, huh?

0:42:23 Thomas: Yeah.

0:42:26 Eli: They're new to the hobby, yeah, oh, also, I have to say this because this came up and I want to talk about it so badly. Uh, To Win Friends and Influence People, such a great fucking book that just got ruined by hard hand-shaking assholes. And that's, that's not what that book

0:42:46 Thomas: Oh really? I use that as a joke reference all the time and I've never read it.

0:42:49 Tom: It no, it, really, it, really like, if you read it's like, yeah, you should just pay attention when people talk to you, and like, like, genuinely appreciate and hear them.

0:42:54 Thomas: Wow.

0:42:56 Eli: Yeah, the introduction of the book is literally, look, I know a lot of people, based on the title of this book, are gonna read it when they don't care about other people, but if you don't care about another people, nothing in this book will work for you, and an entire industry, the, the, the opposite of that grew up around this book. They get, there's a douchebag university based on the book that teaches the opposite of the book. Yes. And I, well, you know, I don't want to get us in legal trouble, but believe me when I say there are douche bag classes across this fine nation. It's, I, I'm trying to think of something. It'S like if Rumi's were poems being used as a martial arts manual by half the country.

0:43:06 Tom: Well, yeah, Jesus,

0:43:07 Thomas: Yeah, wow.

0:43:18 Tom: Christ,

0:43:20 Thomas: That's incredible. Incredible.

0:43:35 Tom: It's a problem with the title because title is sort of like, oh, there's going going to be these like 10 simple tricks or it's like, oh, hand somebody a warm cup of coffee and they'll psychologically trick them into feeling a little like

0:43:35 Thomas: That's Yeah, yeah.

0:43:45 Eli: How to win friends. Like the, every you

0:43:46 Tom: Yeah yeah

0:43:47 Thomas: Win friends. Yeah I was thinking about that too like even just that one word win friends is maybe part

0:43:52 Eli: Knock over the milk cans they hand you a friend the

0:43:53 Thomas: Of it. Yeah, and which

0:43:53 Tom: It's it's a problem with the title because like the whole the the whole thing is like, yeah, you should be worthy of being a friend. Like, that's like the book's advice is like, here's how to actually like care about other people and to show that caring. It

0:44:06 Thomas: Is why I've said before, someday I want to write the book, which is How to Have No Friends and Have Nobody Care About You, that does the same lesson but in reverse. Verse, I'm going to teach people yeah how to be my dad and have nobody care about you when you die at all, and by, by those lessons you learn, do the opposite of that. It'll be, it could be very satirical and funny. I, someday I will, I may try it.

0:44:14 Tom: Sounds

0:44:15 Eli: Thomas's dad story, yeah.

0:44:27 Tom: Great actually

0:44:27 Eli: Intro written by Tom, defending his dad, what, you gotta understand, he's fine

0:44:30 Tom: God damn it.

0:44:27 Thomas: Yeah it's like, look, my dad is not like, okay, this book is good, but it's about Thomas's dad, it's not about my because

0:44:37 Tom: Oh

0:44:37 Eli: Okay, all the sections highlighted in green yes, my dad does those, but that's, the war was hot, there wasn't a lot of bread. Right, gentlemen, before we go. Why don't they use holy water to make vaccines?

0:45:04 Thomas: It doesn't exist, it's, it's not a real,

0:45:05 Eli: Because you shouldn't take the Lord's name in vain.

0:45:09 Tom: In vain, oh, oh, all right

0:45:10 Thomas: I actually like that one. That's a good one. Right, that's all the time we have. I'm gonna give you the usual plugs. The bonus story for this week, the bonus extended episode that patrons get, there are two stories actually. It's Tom's kid on a date, very that's funny situation, no spoilers. But then, Eli tells the story of him trying to impress his date as a kid and doing some awesome chivalry type stuff. And it is absolutely hilarious. So that's on the extended feed. That out.

If also are an episode ahead, next week's episode, to give you a little preview, you could be listening to it right now if you pledge, message is about how much we should support our kids from a financial point of view, if we had all the money in the world what would we do, would we let our kids kind of freeload or would we make them get jobs, all those kind of fun discussions, uh, truly hilarious episode, so that's what you can get on the Patreon.

If you can't become a patron, that's a-okay, we love you so much for listening, keep on doing it, keep on interacting with us and the show with a friend if you think they might like it, we'll see you next time.

0:45:15 Eli: See, there we go, oh,

0:46:20 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.