SIO197: The #DemDebate, Part 2

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only, this is episode 197, I'm your host Thomas Smith, and you know the drill by now, same as last night, well, not quite the same, I've, the kids are in bed, the wife's in bed even though it's way early, but that's the life of a working mom of a two-month-old, it's only 10 right now this time, last night I had to do this way later, but yeah, not, don't have as much of a buzz going this time. So maybe for better or worse, I don't know. Could be better, could be worse. I used a lot of my general stuff last night. You know, I had a lot of comments in general about the debates, the parties, et cetera, et cetera. So I expect this episode to not be as long, but hopefully a similar amount of pure debate commentary.

0:01:19 Thomas: It was debate night two. The candidates were Harris, Biden, Haydn, Buttigieg, Bernie, Gillibrand, Hickenlooper, Swalwell, Bennett, Williamson, and Yang. And yeah, this was in some ways more interesting, in a lot more ways less interesting to me. I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's just because of the second night of it or what, but it just felt less, this felt less substantive. Or maybe it's just because Elizabeth Warren wasn't on stage. Honestly, that might be it. Now that I think about it. She drives policy so hard that maybe it brings out the policy-mindedness in other candidates. Because I just felt, and it also could be, this is a criticism I have of Bernie.

0:02:07 Thomas: Bernie is very not policy. There was at one point that I just got so frustrated because someone asked him a question. I think they had to ask it two, maybe three times of, of, okay, but how are you going to do this? And even on the this third time, he said, you know, like he just had the, not, not a plan, he had, like, we're gonna make it happen, where it's gonna happen, you know, like, like it's one thing if you, you get called out once and then you get more specific, but like by the third time you get called out, it just was, it was frustrating to me. In general, it's a criticism I have of Bernie Sanders. I think he has a lot of great rhetoric, but I don't really, you know.

0:02:57 Thomas: He also proposed at least like two unconstitutional things that wouldn't work. So we'll get to that, though. I don't know why I dove right in on Bernie. But oh, because I was talking about how policy oriented it is. Yeah, this was this was OK. So what should I start out with? First off, all right, we've tried the experiment, experiment, we've done it, we've done the 10 candidate per night, 20 candidate thing. I sincerely hope now, I think maybe they've already determined this, but I hope they, you know, I hope one way or the other, there needs to not be this many candidates. There just needs to, I'm, it's fine, first debate, I get it, it's a crowded field, the first debate I understand having 20 friggin candidates, but it's just too many, just, we give them this one shot to try to make a mark.

0:03:48 Thomas: And if they haven't been able to capture enough support to be in the top six, I'll say like six would be good. You know, if they hadn't gotten into the top six after, you know, give it a month of polling after this or something and, and, you know, Give, give them a chance to campaign and to make more viral videos or whatever, but like, Like, all right, it's just unmanageable. Like, it was 20, but it was 10 each, and 10 is still unmanageable. So if we have one debate, the next debate, if the next debate we've whittled it down to 10, but it's one night, it is going to be just as bad. I want to hear from the top contenders. Maybe eight. Could we get down to eight?

0:04:34 Thomas: Would that be too much to ask? It is just, I get the first debate, again, I I get it, but it's just, it doesn't, it's not good. It really isn't a good way to learn much. Um, I have a lot of superficial remarks because that's a lot of what you get in a format like this. You get a tiny amount of talking and, uh, and it's, it would be one thing if each candidate got 10 full uninterrupted minutes or something, because then they could build a thesis and, and, support it and do all this. But it's in these 30, 45 second increments, which just, I mean, it's just so hard to be effective in that time. And it makes it so we're making our decisions based on superficial things, based on the fact that I think it's, I want to, wow, I actually already forgot.

0:05:26 Thomas: I think its Swalwell or Bennett. One of them like had some good things to say, but he constantly felt like he, he sounded like he was losing it like at all times. And I just, it was hard to focus because he just couldn't get the words out of his mouth. And, uh, that's unfortunate, but it's, it's. It reminds me, actually, that is another general thing I was going to talk about. It is interesting that we, you know, the things that people need in a president, you know, because if it, if the world was full of me's a, it would suck, but B, you know, I just I just want to see their policies. Like, honestly, I want to say their policy proposals and if I need more to narrow it down on maybe, maybe like more on implementation, more on that side, like, okay, yes, you, you have these policy goals, but like, how are you going to implement it?

0:06:16 Thomas: What, what are you gonna do if this happens? What do you, in this situation, if McConnell, blah, blah. All that stuff, like that would be kind of what I want, honestly. And the thing is, somebody like a, I don't know, know, like a hick and looper or something might do better if it was just a blind resume study of or maybe a policy study, whatever. If it was a everybody look at these policies on paper and pick your candidate based on that, who knows who it would be? You know, I don't know. But unfortunately, you know, that's not really how America works, unfortunately. And yeah, there's honestly, it's not all bad. It does make sense that you want your head of state to be somebody with a little bit of charm, with the ability to speak clearly, because there is diplomacy.

0:07:06 Thomas: There are reasons that you need your head of state to be effective in those ways, to interact with other countries, to be able to communicate policy well. I mean, so it's, you know, it's not all bad that we want this presentational ability, but when I watched this debate, I realized, like, how much of it is just this person speaks well, you know, and it's just one of those facts that like I'm not going to argue anybody out of it, you know. I, on paper, I wish I could, like, I wish the country were more fact-based, policy-based, but that's just not how it is. And because of that, in my opinion, somebody like Buttigieg, I think, we'll get a pretty big boost after this debate. That's my prediction.

0:07:51 Thomas: I think he is just very good at speaking effectively. He's a great speaker, obviously a smart guy. It's funny, I have a few people I am incidentally friends with who are just Bernie bros, you know, they're just all in for Bernie. And I just don't, I don't get it. But anyway, um, they, they hate Buttigieg. I don't know what it is. I think they've zeroed in on him as a, as a threat, and they want to make him out to be this awful centrist somehow. You know, it's, it's so weird.

I talked about it last episode, but the amount that people have to make their one candidate, the only option, and everybody else is, they're not just not as good, they're evil. And I know that's not everybody, I'm sorry, that I just happen to see a few posts, you know, a few post before this, and, uh, you know, there's plenty of people who are, who are more generally positive on, on the Democrats, but, but what is it about a certain type of lefty that just has to be like, here is the one candidate that is Jesus, and the other, other ones are Satan.

Like, it's just so weird. I just, it doesn't need to be that way, does it? I mean, what is, and, and, well, okay, I'll get to that later. Here's another thing, stop trying to do these one or two word answers. They don't work. It's, what is Chuck Todd, again, I think that mainly does this.

0:09:25 Thomas: Chuck Todd is not good at this. I said it last night. I'll say it again. He's not not good at this. Is he the son of a, I don't know, something? How did he get this? Maybe he's a sharp guy or something, or maybe he's better in interviews or what, but he's not even a good speaker. He kept swallowing his words. He couldn't ask a question. Somebody pointed out that he talked like more than in the first night of debates, he spoke more than all, but like two or three candidates. So he inserts himself into it. He's not good. He tries to get these, well, not the least of which he has the worst haircut ever.

0:10:12 Thomas: I mean, come on, we can do better. Speaking as someone who used to have horrible haircuts and it was a self-esteem issue. And I've, you know, I haven't fixed my self-esteem, I have fixed my haircuts. It's just better for everybody. It's less embarrassing for me and for my wife. I've made my hair cuts better. Chuck Todd, you can do the same thing. Just shave your head or something, I don't know what you're doing.

Anyway, I say that, I don't want to criticize people about their looks, but this is a controllable thing, this is something that Mbc could surely intervene, say you need, put on a hat, wear a top, wear a top hat or something, all right, I'm just being silly, but still, um, he's terrible and he tries to get these, he tries to do this thing that's, it just doesn't work, and it, it sets up this dynamic where he has to be hassling people, you know, and he says, give me one word on, you know know, night one, I think it was, who is the biggest, uh, geopolitical foe, you know, give me one word, and of course nobody can, or like there will be like one candidate who will, and then they feel like an idiot because they didn't seize the opportunity to put in more words like everybody else does, because you can't bring a knife to a gunfight, you can't bring a one word to a sentence fight.

And the same thing happened today, it was, it was like, give me one word, first priority, day one, you only get one thing, what do you do, and, uh, you know, almost nobody followed those rules, and it just doesn't work, and so he had to

0:11:47 Thomas: Be hassling the whole them, the whole time, it just, it just sets up a annoying dynamic. So stop doing that, everybody. Uh, let's see, what else do we need to, oh, other miscellaneous note, Swalwell sounds so much like Marco Rubio, it is really disturbing. I, I actually like had flashbacks to the 2015-16 primary debates where Marco Rubio would, you know, be interacting with Trump. And I was just like, I started going to, you know, Vietnam flashbacks of that moment. Like it's, it's eerie. And once you, uh, once you notice it, you won't unnotice it again. This is, these are just miscellaneous nonsense things for the most part. Um, let's see, is, does that end my, yeah. Um.

0:12:32 Thomas: I think that does, does it, you know, we, for in terms of, uh, my, uh, my preamble here, I think we saw again some differentiation on health care. Um, we saw that there was this battle between, do we eliminate private health care, or health insurance rather, or do we, um, let people still have it if they want it, and I, I didn't see too much, too many comments on this on the last episode, if you feel strongly about this or and have good resources as to why this would matter that much, feel free to get at me. Now, again, I'm, I'm in favor of getting rid of private insurance for the reasons I said last night, but I also don't think it's insane to say, well, we're going to transition it out, we're going to still leave people with the option, we're gonna let people have, you know, we're, we're going to make the public option be incredibly strong.

0:13:32 Thomas: But if people want to still have some supplementary private insurance, they can do that kind of thing. You know, I've just, I can be convinced either way. And the important thing for me is if you want everybody to have healthcare and you truly have a plan for it, that's, I mean, in some ways that's kind of good enough for me. Um, so I, I, there was a lot of fighting on that and I can't bring myself to feel that that strongly about it. You know, I, I might be alone there, but, um, here's another thing that I have to say now that I'm digging into the, uh, specifics. Let me talk about this debate. Here's what I think happened. I think, okay, I'm going to get the list of names. I'm gonna go through what I Think happened. Kamala Harris was very strong.

0:14:19 Thomas: Um, let me, that's a good idea. I'll I'll talk about debate performance and I'll somewhat separate that from policy and agenda and all that. And I'll just talk about Debate Performance. That might be a good way to start. I think Harris was incredibly strong. Now, here's the weird thing, though. The weirdest thing about Kamala Harris was that her closing statement was actually pretty weak, which is odd because I would have thought that that's where everybody in all these debates, Everybody has their, they know they're going to get a minute or whatever for a closing statement. A lot of them had prepared lines. Um, some of them deliver them very well. Some of them seemed very hollow and memorized and all that. Um. But Harris, I couldn't even tell, like it seemed almost extemporaneous.

0:15:07 Thomas: Uh, you know, I'm not saying it was awful, but like for how strong she was during the debate, I was actually a little shocked. I was like, Oh, Ooh, I thought that was was going to be stronger. Um, but that's okay. No, you know, no big deal. Uh, but it just was odd to me. I wonder if anybody else felt the same way. Uh but she was so poised during that debate. She is just, I mean, she's just, her confidence just really comes across and, uh, you know, she also has some great things to say and I think that's a crucial ingredient. Uh But I'm just very impressed with her. And she just, she just she's somebody who for me anyway, and I imagine that I think I think people will. I think the the polls will indicate that this will be true.

0:15:52 Thomas: She just looks like somebody where you're like, yeah, that that person can be on a debate stage with Donald Trump and wipe the floor with him. That's a strong person. That's an intelligent, confident, poised person. I loved it. I thought she did great. Right. Uh, she was, she really hammered Biden on, on busing. Maybe this is the best format to just talk about the whole thing. I keep going back and forth. These are rapid responses. Um, but she, maybe I'll just go into that interaction. Biden is next on my list. Uh he, you know, I'll say this Biden did actually better than I thought, but that's because I had incredibly low expectations for Biden.

0:16:38 Thomas: That said, I think we are hopefully, in my opinion, witnessing the Jeb moment for Biden, I won't say he's quite as bad as Jeb, but I just don't think he has a good reason to be doing this. There were times where, honestly, I felt he won me on a couple of points where I was like, just happy that he was defending Obama on certain things, you know, and that doesn't work all the time. Some people said, uh, someone, someone on Twitter made a great distinction where they're like, he wasn't running as an extension of Obama, which might be okay. He was running using Obama as a shield.

0:17:25 Thomas: And I think that was certainly true at points. But I do think what, like there were a couple of times where I was just glad that he spoke up for Obama. Cause I, you know, I'm a fan of Obama. I think that I think in retrospect, given, uh, again, hindsight being 2020, Obama could have done things a lot differently. You know, he, had he been able to know that Republicans would lose their effing minds, uh I think he would have done things differently and he should have done Things differently. He was a, Obama was a president for another era. You know, he would have been an amazing president in an era that was not the Fox News era, but he got no cooperation. So I think he needlessly appealed to the right and gave things over to the Right without getting really anything meaningful in return.

0:18:19 Thomas: And that's rough. It makes it so that it seems like a lot of bad things happen because of that. And it's sad. I still think he was an amazing president. I think he's an amazing person and with amazing character. So, you know, maybe that'll win a lot of people over. You know, that's not enough to make me support Biden by any stretch, but I don't know. Maybe that will be for some other voters. He did, the way he talked about it, it does make you long for that time, you Know, oh yeah, Obama-Biden, and that's right. He was a small part of that duo. He was the Garfunkel of that Simon Garfunke.

0:19:00 Thomas: Buttigieg, I mentioned it. He's next on my list here. Actually, you know, I should say this. Here's what I'll say real quick. Sorry that I'm jumping around a little bit. Because of last night, I mentioned how long people talked. Tonight, I did something where I, just for fun, this was just to, I don't know, challenge myself a little bit. After the debate, I made my list of who I thought talked the most. So I ranked them in terms of how long they spoke. And I was curious how off I would be. And one of the reasons I did this is because I know from studies that people think that women speak more, like even if they They chime in a couple of times, uh, people, when they do these studies on this, they'll think that women spoke way more than they did.

0:19:50 Thomas: Uh, and that's a very bad thing. That's a bad cognitive bias that we have. Um, so I was curious, I just tried to do this straight up and my list was, and this is absolutely true. I didn't, I didn't nail it. I was, I was okay, but I, I didn't do that well, but I will tell you, my list was, I thought Kamala Harris was going to be on top because she got like an uninterrupted couple minutes to just go off on Biden. And I thought their interaction was going to make her time a lot, you know? So I actually had Kamala Harris on top and that was a mistake because she was second. So, and then I had Biden, Buttigieg, Bernie. I was torn on those four. Like I knew they were my top four, but I just wasn't sure.

0:20:36 Thomas: Like, I remember remember Buttigieg talking for a while. I remember the, the reason I didn't have Biden in first is because I don't remember him trying to speak too much. Like I remember him getting a lot of questions, but I felt like some of the other candidates would have seized more time than he did. Um, because he almost did a couple of times. He almost did that old George HW Bush thing that SNL made fun of where he like finishes the question and it was like, Oh, I'm sure I'm out of time. I must be out of time. And they're like, well, no, I actually have a full full minute left. He kind of did that a little bit. Like I could tell he almost wanted to tap out of a few questions, but no, I was wrong. He was actually on top. Anyway, I'll get my list. I thought it was Harris, Biden, Buttigieg, Bernie, Gillibrand, Hickenlooper, Swalwell, Bennett, Williamson, and poor Yang.

0:21:28 Thomas: I'm not a Yang fan. I'm not in the Yang gang, but like, I think even I think he deserved a little better. He was just not there, you know, like he, he's, I mean, yeah, I know he's not on the top of the polls or anything, but like they really did not give him anything. And I, so I was actually pretty close. I messed up, what I did mess up was Bennett actually. The problem is I mix up some of these, some of These white men, you You know, I'm racist in that they all look the same to me. And yeah, I was right on Yang, but Swalwell was the one I was thinking of who should have been a little lower. Williamson managed to shoehorn in some stuff.

0:22:15 Thomas: Boy, was she nuts. That was interesting. But, you know, it was mostly right. I have my top four correct, just not in the right order. Bernie was above Buttigieg.

0:22:27 Thomas: Gillibrand was, wow, actually below Bennett. Bennett. That's yeah. Bennett was the one I got way wrong. Anyway. So that was the list I'm working off right now. So who was I on? Buttigieg. Yeah. He, uh, he's a good speaker. He is very good at this job of speaking and communicating, uh... his thoughts. He sounds... he seems calm. He sounds trustworthy. These are all, again, admittedly superficial qualities. Not... well, well, okay, not a hundred percent superficial, but they are not policy related, shall I say. But I mean, he also is an effective communicator of his policy, which is important because somebody like, and again, I'm mixing up my white men, but, but somebody like I think Bennett, you know, was just not a good communicator.

0:23:17 Thomas: Like, I think he had good stuff to say, but I just, too hard to listen to, I really was. And it's unfortunate, but I, I just almost couldn't even get, like, it, like it just felt like maybe he had taken too many, I don't know, beta blockers or something. Like, I just couldn't focus on him because he was really having a hard time getting all his words out. And, you know, for better or worse, I think that matters. So I think Buttigieg did quite well. I think, I think Bernie did, Bernie, which, here's my, okay, I've had this prediction, I can't remember, sorry if I said this already, I don't think I did. I predict that Bernie is not going to win.

0:24:03 Thomas: I predicted Biden's not going away. I'm not going back. I mean, I predict the Bernie's not gonna win. Here's why I think Bernie is not gonna go in. I, I think that a lot of Bernie's support in 2016 was anti-Hillary, was, he's just the only other close to viable option that got anywhere near Hillary, and I'm not saying that's 100%, that's not all of it, but that's enough. And he also has a lot of name recognition, very high name recognition, which tells me I don't think he has a, a lot of room for upward mobility in his poll numbers. I mean, people just know who he is now at this point, and if he hasn't cracked that higher percentage with near universal name recognition, I don't see how he has the room to grow.

Now, I'm not, I'm, you know, it's not impossible, I'm not saying I'm 100 certain, but I think given this wealth of viable candidates, that enough of, of it doesn't take much of Bernie's 2016 support to have been just because he was the other candidate and not Hillary. It doesn't make that much of it to mean that he has just pretty much no chance. And I think people have seen Bernie. They know who he is at this point, Democrats anyway. And some of the Democrats really, really, really like him, and that's not nothing. I mean, I want to remind people, I voted for him in the primary 2016. I kind of, at this point, I sort of regret that.

0:25:39 Thomas: Like, I actually do think Hillary was just better candidate, but I don't know, I could go either way. You know, if I could magically Bernie into being president, I think he would do some good. But I just don't think he, he has the specifics. I think he has a lot of good beliefs and talking points, but I, the reason I don't really like him that much is he just, he's very vague.

You know, if you pay attention to his answers, he just tends to yell about how we need to take on Wall Street, you know, and he's, he doesn't, he needs to find that balance of actual policy, you know, and just tune up that dial a little bit, just tick it up a little bit more in the specifics department. And, uh, I'll say another thing, I meant to say this as one of my preamble things that I didn't say, I, uh, you know, some people may get mad at me for this, I am ageist when it comes to presidential candidates, and I will admit that. And the reason I'm ageist is because we get one of them, we get 1 president, and it's the most important job in the entire nation. I am a little ageist. I'm, I'm not even a lot ageist, I'm just like a little, there are just people who I'm like, that person is too old, that's it.

We get one of them, everybody. Like, you know, if you, if we asked everybody who, who you want your pilot to be, who you want your surgeon to be, do you want it to be somebody pushing 80, or do you want to be somebody like, I don't know, 40s, 50s, even, who's been, who has good experience, but also isn't pushing 80.

0:27:20 Thomas: And I, the answer is yeah, I mean, there aren't 80-year-old world chess champions, you know, there, it just is not how things work. Um, now this doesn't mean that I hate old people. Uh, I've had some people react badly to this before, and look, here's the thing, if you think my saying that there should be sort of a kind of an informal way that maybe we don't elect 80-year-old people to be president or pushing 80, if you think that's insulting, what about the fact that somebody my age constitutionally can't be president? I think that trumps your thing. You know, if you're a little insulted because I think people are pushing 80, maybe we shouldn't vote for them, how about the fact that I constitutionally couldn't even be elected president?

0:28:09 Thomas: Like, I think I think that trumps it. You think that trumps your your concern there, that it's far more insulting to be legally barred from doing a thing than to have somebody say, we find someone a little younger to do this thing. So that's my answer to that. And I want to remind you, we get one president. When I say I don't want this person to be the one person we get to be president, that doesn't mean I hate them and want them to die. You know, it's like, things get so extreme for the one person we gets to do the job, you know, we can be picky. And when it comes to Bernie and Biden, they are just, it's not just the mathematical age. It's not Just the number, you know, this isn't a hard and fast rule. I'm not, I don't want an age cap or anything.

0:28:56 Thomas: I'm Not saying I don't want to have just, there are people who there Bernie and Biden tonight to me were a little confused sometimes, you can see it and not just them. Honestly, there were some younger people who were at times a little confused, but you know, they're, they're pushing 80, you know? They're, They're going to be almost 80 by the time inauguration rolls around. And there are specifically with Bernie. This is why I think Bernie is in some ways such a cult because I, for one, can't find too much meaningful difference between Bernie and Gillibrand. In fact, Gillibrand talked about how many, she always brought up, oh yeah, I co-sponsored this with Bernie.

0:29:44 Thomas: I co-sponsored this with Bernie, I co-sponsored. Like they're, they're virtually interchangeable policy wise. I know some Bernie bros will probably come up with something and yell at me about it, about how she's actually a Hitler because of something, but like they, they agree on almost everything. Why on earth would you support the, the old white man pushing 80 over a younger, uh, first ever woman president. Like I just can't, I can't justify that. I don't know why that could possibly be what would be better. So actually, you know, Bernie bros come at me if you are a big Bernie person. And I, you Know, I, I like Bernie. If he's, if he's the candidate, I will gladly vote for him. I, again, I don't I I'm not nearly as hateful of any of these candidates as so many of them seem to be of other candidates, except Biden.

0:30:38 Thomas: That's my one, but everybody else. But I will say, I want to know this. If you are a Bernie supporter, tell me why Bernie over Gillibrand. And I think you can make the kind of, I don't know, cheap argument of, oh, well, he's more viable. He's got more support. Yeah, right. But like, Like, really? I mean, that wasn't, there's still plenty of time to change that, you know? So that sort of begs the question, I think. So I'm curious. And for me, I Think, like, my honest opinion is while Bernie is a good guy, he's good for many different reasons. He's not my choice at all. But I see the positives in him. And I think the people who like Bernie, the people really support Bernie, Think that he's the most honest, uh, he's going to be the most dedicated to his progressive agenda. I think they trust him. But in my opinion, I think the, the only reason that Gillibrand doesn't get their support is, you know, for some percentage of Bernie supporters, it's a little cult-like.

Like, it's a little, like, he's the, the one true path, the way, the light, and the whatever, and nobody else can take that from him because he's, he's sort of got that, I don't know, it's, it's more, it's more a cult of personality, I think, than it should be. I'm not saying that's for everybody that supports Bernie, but I think there are certainly people like that.

And so I'm curious, mate, I could be wrong, fully admit, if you are, you know, a hardcore Bernie supporter, feel free to give me the substantive policy answer as to why Bernie over Gillibrand, I'm happy to hear it.

0:32:21 Thomas: Um, you know, write me in or post somewhere, I really am happy to hear. Oh, well, now maybe is a good time to talk about a couple of really severely stupid things that Bernie said. And, um, yeah, so I know I, sorry Bernie bros, I know your defenses are going to get up, but this is, this is why I'm not as into him, because there were times when he did try to get specific, and, and what he said was nonsense. So I got Andrew's opinion on this, he posted about it, so it was easy. You may have seen when Bernie said, well, I'm not going to do the court packing, but what I am going to have justices rotate out. And Andrew piped in on Facebook and said, that's absurd, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

0:33:06 Thomas: That's unconstitutional, whereas court packing actually isn't unconstitional. So he literally said the opposite of what would be true. And also, the, the minute you introduce that idea, if it were a viable idea, the idea of rotating out justices, Trump would immediately, if you could do that, Trump would rotate out, you know, Kagan, Sotomayor, you know, RBG tomorrow. I'm really glad that's not how you do it, because they would, things would be even worse right now. So that, that was just a mind-blowingly stupid idea. You know, I, I don't, I have, I dunno where he got that. Here's the other thing, the other, so there, I said there were two, there were two that I noticed, and who knows if there will be more. In some debate review or anything, you know, obviously again, this is rapid response.

0:33:55 Thomas: But he said, you know, they were talking about abortion and all that. And Gillibrand, another reason to support Gilliband over Bernie, if you know, if you're so inclined, is Gillibrand is really great on abortion, on women's rights of course, and she is, you know, a woman, and it might be a good time to have a woman be president since they've, you know, never gotten a chance. There have been 45 men. Maybe one woman would be cool. Maybe that would be, maybe great to get one. God, that's another, sorry, that's another reason that I get so mad about these Bernie supporters. It's like, one, we can't, can we do one? Honestly, it wouldn't be, be unfair in my mind to have the next 45 presidents be women, you know, like that would set it at equal.

0:34:47 Thomas: And then we could be like, okay, now anybody, you Know, or where we can, we can get into if, if there's a, some non-binary candidates in the future, that would be great too. But like it really like, think about the fact, I think most men would probably think what I said was just the height of sexism. How dare you say we can only have women for 45 presidents? That's what we've done for men.

0:35:16 Thomas: This is the past 45 presidents. Our entire nation's history has only been men. The idea that you're just going to say, well, okay, starting now, we'll do 50-50, except not really because we still want Bernie to be, you know, like Like, the idea that that's at all fair, it's weird to me. Anyway, what was I saying? On abortion. So the other outrageously stupid thing, in my opinion, that Bernie said was that his Medicare for All bill, under his Medicare for all bill, abortion will be a right for everybody. And it's like, that's not how that works, man. If Roe v. Wade, and this was under the hypothetical of what if Roe vs. Wade gets overturned?

0:36:01 Thomas: And he said, well, under my Medicare for ALL bill. That's not how it works. I mean, if states ban abortion and the Supreme Court says it's okay, as they are likely to do, listen to opening arguments for more details, maybe it'll be, you know, they won't officially repeal all of Roe v. Wade, but it'll effectively be gone and states will ban abortion. It doesn't matter if your bill says they have access access to abortion. If the Supreme Court has decided that states can restrict it, then that's what happens. So that was a nonsense answer to me. Um, and you know, those, those things were pretty nonsense. Uh, so while I'm going through all of them, I should have gone more into Biden and what he did.

0:36:49 Thomas: I mean, the busing comment, it turns out he was just lying about busing. So what happened was Kamala Harris, who was excellent, as I said, went after Biden on being anti-busing. And this is a, this is a complex issue. Maybe it's not, I don't know. It's, it's, it's busing is hard because it's like the least bad way to get things better, but it still seems absurd. Like it still still seems weird that you would need to take buses full of black people over to the better schools. Like that seemed like just to someone who, a naive person who knows nothing about the country. It's like, well, that's what we're going to, that doesn't, that can't be the best way to do it.

0:37:35 Thomas: But you look at the details and you look, the fact that we're still, we're more segregated than ever, perhaps in some ways, um, we, our schools are hugely segregated and black schools in predominantly black areas are underfunded. There were the worst outcomes, all this stuff. The best way to improve schools for everybody is better integration. And the only way that that's going to happen is by these busing programs. And the only way that black people in, I don't know, the 60s, 70s, whatever, after that was passed in the 70s I guess it would be in the 80s, some into the 80's, the only way they could get access to better schooling is by these busing programs. And that's what Kamala Harris said.

0:38:20 Thomas: She said, "I was one of these kids." She was bused to a better school. And under Biden, Biden was vehemently anti-busing. And so Biden tried to say, "No, no, I'm just, it was just a state's rights thing, I was, I was against federal, you know, mandated busing," but, you know, the reason you were, and he tried to say, like, "Yeah, you, I wouldn't have been against you getting bused because the state, whatever," and Kamala's point was, "Yeah, but I was in California and we were still only like the second state to do it." So she's saying, "I was in like the most progressive state, one of the most progressive states, and we barely even had any busing." And, you know, without a federal mandate, it's not going to happen.

0:39:10 Thomas: It didn't happen in most places. And that means effectively you're against it. You know, I mean, states' rights, when you're in an argument about racism and racist racist issues and you go to states' rights, that's usually a bad sign. It usually sounds a lot like, well, no, no. It's not about slavery. It is about states' rights. It isn't about, well, I am not anti-civil rights act. I just think the states should be able to say, no that is not a good look, I think. Furthermore, it would be one thing if what Biden said were true, but the fact fact checkers, uh, I checked the New York times fact checking on this. He actually was just against busing. It wasn't just a federal thing. He, he was lying on stage when he said, Oh no, I just wanted municipalities to be able to say, no, he Was actually just against it in his own, uh, state too.

0:40:03 Thomas: So it's, it doesn't make any sense to, to make that his argument. And, uh, so he was laying, and I don't think that was a good look. And while he, you know, know, he had a prepared line that I think was effective. I don't know how effective, I'm not sure, but I think he was maybe ready for this because, yeah, when you're the front runner and you know Kamala Harris is going to be in your debate group, and you know you're potentially weak on some racial justice issues in certain ways, you're probably going to be ready with this. He said, "Well, unlike you, I didn't become a prosecutor, I became a public defender," which I think he did a little homework and saw that one of the most effective anti-Harris attacks is, "Oh, she's a cop, she's a cop."

0:40:55 Thomas: Which is an annoying meme to me. It's simplistic. It, it's entirely possible that there is a criticism, valid criticism of her time as a prosecutor, as the attorney general, certainly, certainly there could be valid criticisms. Saying "she's a cop" annoys the F out of me, and I don't like cops. So it's, uh, you know, it's not because of that. Um, so in case you were thinking, "Oh, because it's," I have some love for cops, I can't stand cops. But, um, especially when you're talking about a black woman, dismissing their basically their entire personhood with one short sentence, "Kamala is a cop," like, I have a problem with that.

I, I think that I just, I, I don't know, it's, it's unfair to me. I think that, that we, we owe Kamala Harris certainly a much more nuanced take than that, and, and even if that means you don't ultimately support her, that's just, it's just so unfair to, to me. So yeah, things got heated there with that interaction, going back to the busing thing. And yeah, it's, you know, it is so curious though, polling wise, Biden still has such a commanding lead with black voters. And you know what? I bet you, I bet that will change. Because here is what happened in '08. For anyone who doesn't remember or know, black voters supported not Obama, Obama even

0:42:33 Thomas: Even when Obama was in the ring, you know, like, it's not as though the minute he announced then all the black voters switched over to him. It took a couple of contests, and it wasn't even after debates, I think it took after a couple of primaries for black voters to see, "Oh wait, people will vote for this guy, they will actually vote for this guy," for black voters to say, "We've got a viable candidate, I'm going to support him." And until then, I think they were supporting Hillary overwhelmingly, if I remember correctly, or I think that would be the only other candidate it could be. And it might be another reason that Hillary had such a commanding lead on the black vote in 2016.

0:43:18 Thomas: She had done a lot to cultivate those relationships. But anyway, once they saw Obama as viable and as as somebody that people would vote for, it sort of gave them license to believe in him and to believe that it was possible. And they switched over to Obama very rapidly and in landslide fashion, of course. And maybe a similar thing could happen with Kamala Harris. I don't know, but maybe that will be what happens. It could be very analogous to saying, oh, well, this guy had our support for, you know, for decent reasons. Being VP to Obama is certainly a good thing on your resume, I'll say, in my opinion, and especially maybe to black voters. And there are other reasons that black voters like Biden, as much as he has weaknesses in his history.

0:44:10 Thomas: I think he has campaigned in ways that, and been in the Senate and done things in ways that, that cultivated those relationships. And so, but I think maybe seeing Kamala Harris, you know, I, I suppose you could say the same thing about Booker, but as we've covered for some reason, people don't like Cory Booker. And by the way, incidentally, I know I'm branching off here. Uh, I did have a few people write me in when I asked like, why doesn't anybody like Cory Bookers? Someone said they just hear Tony Robbins when they hear him talk. They just think he's phony. All right. Maybe everybody has that feeling. I think for me, it's that he's lived it a little too much for me to think he's pure phony, so maybe he has a sound that's a little phony but it doesn't really bother me that much.

0:45:03 Thomas: But anyway, Kamala Harris, I think already, A, she has way way more support than Booker. And B, maybe this debate, or maybe even some of the primaries, once we get there, will be the thing that shift black voters into seeing, oh yeah, this is a great candidate who we can side with. I don't know, who knows? Or maybe that's drawing too much on history. Certainly, I think there are ways that this race will be analogous to 2008, eight and maybe ways it won't. I mean, there's so many candidates and there are so many leftists get like far left candidates. There's a wide range. So who knows? We'll see. But that could be a possibility. I don't think that Biden can retain that support for long.

0:45:48 Thomas: And I think a lot of it is name ID. A lot of it is, you know, nobody, not everybody. Most people in this country are not like you and I, you know, most people are not this heavily into this, most people don't, probably don't even care that the debates are happening, they don't know, that's just how it is. It's weird, as I said the other, uh, the other day, when my, um, when my hairdresser had no idea, person giving me a haircut had no idea that the Mueller report had come out and didn't even know who Mueller was or what that was, and you're just like, "Oh yeah, there's some people who, that's their lives and they're happier than we are." But anyway, I digress yet again.

0:46:34 Thomas: So where do we want to go from here? Yeah, Bernie, those are my knocks on Bernie. He also seemed confused to me at times. He's old, he yells a lot. Yes, he's been right about a lot of stuff over the years. And I count that in his favor a lot, you know, he voted against the Iraq war. That's something he certainly threw in Biden's face. And, you know, that's fair to throw that in Biden's face. There are good reasons to like Bernie. Absolutely. You know, it's why I voted for him in primary in 2016. He tells it like it has no chance of ever being, to quote, I think, an Onion article at the time. But he states the case clearly.

0:47:21 Thomas: He has principles that he believes, uh, and he's been right about a lot of stuff. But for me, um, there are downsides, there are reasons I don't, he's not my favorite, and there are other candidates that I think can do a better job and, uh, are demographically better and are younger and are women, and we just don't need Bernie to be president. Next on my list is Gillibrand.

I've said already a lot of stuff about her, she had an interesting debate performance, just, just talking debate wise. Oh, uh, sorry, let me finish this other thread that I had left in Bernie. Did Bernie, I, I think that I, I don't think that Bernie convinced anybody who wasn't a Bernie supporter, that's, that'll be my prediction, you can test how full of crap I am. I don't see Bernie's numbers rising after this debate. I'm not saying that he failed by any means, I'm not saying that he was bad. I think that Bernie did Bernie, and we already know Bernie. That's my prediction. Bernie was Bernie and we already knew he was Bernie.

So it wasn't like, "Oh man, he crashed and burned, he's going to lose all the support." But I predict that he actually will slowly start to lose support to other candidates who are breaking out, who now are going to be recognized because he had such, such high name ID and other candidates didn't. And there's only so many places for that support to go. And I think he will go down a little bit. I don't think he won over non-Bernie supporters personally.

0:48:54 Thomas: That's my opinion. So, uh, Gillibrand, she had a, a sort of an up and down debate in my book, just in terms of, you know, debate performance. She seemed a little shaky at times, seemed a little not entirely confident, like she didn't have the, the poise and the swagger of somebody like Kamala Harris to me, like, and I know this, again, this is superficial stuff, but it's, it's what I'm just saying in terms of debate performance I think what people will judge. I think Gillibrand, is a, I like Gillibrand a lot, I think she's a great candidate, if she were, I would be thrilled if she were the nominee. I really would. She would, in terms of wand waving, magic wand waving, she is, uh, near the top for me, actually.

0:49:42 Thomas: I think she has so many of those progressive credentials that a lot of the other candidates do that I like. And also, you know, she's in, she's in her, uh... I think she's in her early 50s, so she's pretty young on presidential terms. She's a woman. That's great. We need a female president. That would be awesome, awesome, and I love her zeal for women's rights, for reproductive rights, I like her a lot. I do think that she, as I said, superficially, she didn't have that poise that Kamala Harris had. I mean, Kamala Harris just commanded that stage for me, she really did. Biden does as well, it be because he's Joe Biden. He's a tall white man who's been in politics for eternity.

0:50:30 Thomas: So he has that swagger, not all of it earned. Some of it by nature of being who and what he is. Kamala really did blow me away though with her poise. And maybe that's, if Gillibrand weren't standing sort of near her, then maybe Gilliband would have looked a little better. But that comparison, it's hard to compete with Kamala on that front, in my opinion. But I love Gillibrand. I don't foresee her making a big move.

0:51:03 Thomas: Unfortunately, there's a lot going on. There's two nights of this stuff, and I don't think that she did enough to make a big move to have a surge, which is unfortunate. I really like her. But that's my prediction. I don't think she did badly, I think she did pretty well, but not enough to move the needle, or move the noodle, as Andrew accidentally said on Opening Arguments, so that's, that's my prediction, but it's unfortunate because I really do like her.

Hickenlooper is just, I don't know, man, he's, he's one of those candidates who, on paper, if I didn't know anything about him, he's got, he's got good policy, a lot of people really like Hickenlooper. I don't dislike him, but he's an old white man who I don't need to be president, it's just, honestly, that's that's I don't need him to be, I don't dislike him, if he were somehow the candidate, that would be awesome. I, I think he's, uh, he has, he made a lot of good points, has good policy here and there, he's accomplished some stuff, um, but you know, I just, I don't see him taking off. I think, I think we're, again, we've got, we've got 20 candidates, I just don't see him surging.

Swalwell, I, can, guys, these are, these are, I'm getting to the, uh, a little bit, it, in the bottom of the barrel here, uh, Swalwell. Yeah, I honestly, I can't keep him and Bennett apart in my mind, I don't, if I saw them I would be able to, but I, I have a hard time off the top of my head, which doesn't bode well for them. Uh, Bennett. Yeah. Williamson, let's talk about Williamson, um, I

0:52:39 Thomas: Heard an interview with her and I didn't hate it, but I think that's because they treaded carefully, you know, whoever the interviewer was, didn't ask her any hard questions about why are you a woo merchant? You know, like I didn't know anything about her. So I heard, 100% knowing nothing about her, or rather knowing 0% about her, she sounded really smart and put together on the thing she was talking about in that interview. Now that I know more about her, uh, she's hilarious, she has no chance, she's really funny, um, she's also probably a woo merchant who in some ways is likely harmful because she's probably pseudo-scientific in what she, uh, advocates.

So, you know, that was, but I mean, she was funny, it was, it was entertaining to to have her on stage, but she's not, she shouldn't be president. I, I hope she doesn't take off after this, I don't think she will, um, but you know, whatever, we do take all kinds, um, and then Yang, poor Yang, Andrew Yang is really good in podcast format, he's less good in this format, he, I, I think Yang supporters honestly, they might be justified in being a little upset at his treatment in this debate. He didn't get any time. He got weird questions.

0:54:09 Thomas: He, I, you know, again, I don't hate Andrew Yang. I don't hate any of the candidates except my strong dislike for, for Biden, as I've said, and I, I wish he weren't running. I don't hate Andrew Yang, I don't think he should be president, but, you know, he's got fresh ideas, and, you know, it's, it's interesting. I, maybe, maybe he should run for some other stuff first. Maybe he shouldn't be the first person in history to go from mayor to president and without anything higher in between. He would be the first in history. He would be unprecedented.

0:54:54 Thomas: So I know it seems like he's amazing. It seems like he's put together, other, but like, keep that in mind, you know, like he, yeah, the, the ways that we seem to bend over backwards for inspiring white men is something that I don't think we do for women. Um, now it could be the closest comparison could be Williamson, but she's, you know, she's got no chance. Buttigieg, I think, has a chance. I think he has more than a small chance because he is so effective at communicating. And he's calming. He's very pleasant to listen to. And he is also very smart. And I think that counts for a lot. But just mind you, you know, it would be unprecedented.

0:55:52 Thomas: I don't know why president has to be the first thing that he is on a national stage or even on a statewide. He hasn't even won statewide office. Like start there. Maybe, um, that would be good. So, um. Those are my thoughts. I've already, wow. I actually went longer than I thought I would. I thought this would be shorter, but I have a way of talking. Um, I guess I could try to rank these candidates. Let's see. Could I rank these candidates on this night? We'll go magic wand waving, magic wand, waving. Who would I like? Um, Gillibrand might honestly be the top of my picks. If I could wave a wand and make any of these people president might be Gillibrand.

0:56:39 Thomas: I really like her. You know, it might be, uh, Let's see. Who else? Gosh, this is a... There's some people who I don't want to be... Williamson is not on the list. If I could wave a magic wand, I wouldn't wave it. I'd just be like, I declined. Yang is close to that, but I think he's smart enough and scientific enough that I wouldn't think he'd ruin the country. I think maybe a lot of his ideas might not work. I was going to say he should be like ninth, but I'm wrong. Biden is ninth. Uh, that's how much I don't like Biden magic wand time here. Okay. I formula, this is a tough list. Admittedly, this is difficult. And some part of it is that I don't remember the difference between Bennett and Swalwell.

0:57:28 Thomas: And I don't want to look it up cause it's, it doesn't matter. They're not going to win. So here's my list. Top of the ticket, top of the magic wand, uh, Gillibrand. I, I, I, you know, on thinking about it, I just, I think she's got, you know, a lot of great qualities, uh, and isn't getting her due. She's, she's the top Harris. I have second. I'm not a hundred percent sure about that. There are some policies that I worry she would be not as progressive as I'd want. Uh, but I don't know, maybe I'm just on a high of how impressive she was in this debate. I think Hickenlooper is third.

0:58:08 Thomas: Hickenlooper's really good. People like him a lot. And I've heard interviews with him, he wasn't amazing on this stage. He's not gonna win, but he might be a good magic wand candidate. I've got Bernie fourth. That might be high, I don't know, this, this is a weird group of people. I don't find this night's slate of candidates to be quite as serious as the previous nights. In some ways, Bennett, uh, so I'll put, you know what, just for fun, I'm gonna going to throw Yang sixth, because I have Buttigieg fifth, if I didn't say that. Buttigieg, you know, I don't think he deserves it. He should run for statewide office first, but he wouldn't. I don't think he would be a bad president.

0:58:53 Thomas: I think he's a very thoughtful guy. I think he would do his homework and he's good communicator. It would be cool to get a gay person in the White House. I mean, we've had one or two actually, but an out gay person is in the White House, that would be, be cool. Um, and then after Buttigieg I'm gonna put, I'm going to put Yang sixth. I, I think, I think the universal basic income would be an interesting experiment, and it would be something that would, I would be interested in trying that, and I also think Yang would be progressive enough on other issues that, that it would, it's good on climate, you know, there's... there's other good things about him, he's nowhere near my list and whatever. And then I'll put Bennett and Swalwell, because I, I can't remember who they are. And then Biden would be ninth, below the people who I can't remember.

0:59:42 Thomas: And then Williamson is not on the list. She is a technically speaking 10th, but she is, I would not wave the wand. Like if it was like wave a magic wand, no, I declined to wave the one that makes Williamson president. She would be a bad president. She would be bad for the country. I don't like people who are anti-science. We're already bad enough at that. Um, she'd still be better than Trump though. She believes in climate change. She believes In, uh, not racism. So there, that's already enough. All right. Um, thanks for listening so much. I hope you liked this. I know this was a little scatterbrained, but it was rapid response. I wanted to get my immediately, uh... My immediate reflections on the, uh… Debates and people like the last one.

1:00:28 Thomas: Hopefully you like this one, uh... too, but there you have it. Let's get some of these people off the stage. I'm, I'm pretty dialed in at eight, that would be the ideal number to whittle it down to for the next debate. It would still be a lot of people, but it would be more manageable. Or like if we want to do 10 and two nights of five, I actually don't hate that. Um, give each candidate more time to actually talk and say what they believe in and, and all that. So there you have it, I'm still, uh, I still love Elizabeth Warren. I'm shocked to learn that she is 70 years old. I thought she was still in her mid-60s. So that's why there's no hard and fast rule about the age thing. I don't want a hard and vast cutoff.

1:01:13 Thomas: She is so sharp to me and she is so brilliant and does her homework so well that I think at 70, she is more effective, would be more effective than some people who are in their 50s. So there you have it. It's a case by case basis, uh, in terms of the ageism thing. I think if she were 80, it would not be the same. Um, but it, you know, she is really old. So maybe, you Know, maybe I'm, I don't know. Maybe I'm serious about this Gillibrand thing.I don't think she has a chance, but maybe, maybe it's worthwhile to get somebody younger in there. I don't know. But I, Warren is, they're they're just, there's, there are ways that she has such an advantage in terms of her rigorous knowledge and her, her, she does her effing homework, you know, and I just think that counts for so much, you Know, so there you go.

1:02:07 Thomas: That's, she's still my top pick of it as of now. But there are plenty of candidates who I will be excited to vote for. Hey, have you enjoyed this? Please share it. Please go to patreon.com/seriouspod and pledge as little as a dollar to keep the show going. We need to, it needs to happen to keep it going and thank you so much to those who have. You are the best. I love you and I'll see you next time.