SIO194: Milkshaking with Eli Bosnick

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only, this is episode 194, I'm your host Thomas Smith, and okay, this was a bit of an audible, because here's what happened, let me tell you what happened. I have an interview that I can't wait to publish now next week, really good interview, but what happened was my good friend Eli Bosnick, who you all know and love from Godawful Movies, Scathing Atheists, all those podcasts, Puzzle and the Thunderstorm podcasts, who's a really Really funny guy, incredibly incisive, intelligent, fantastic guy to have on the show, who you may remember from many debates, a lot of contentious stuff throughout show history, check out the archives for some fireworks, for some interesting moments, debated James Lindsay, he was on here when we talked to the myth information a-holes about MythCon, all that stuff, and he texted me and asked if I had done anything on the milkshaking stuff, you know, this would be these UK politicians, including my not friend, Carl Benjamin Sargon, who I debated at the aforementioned Myth Information Conference.

And they get hit with milkshakes. It's been just a constant dialogue, nonstop. And I hadn't because of this. Now, I talked about it very briefly on this week's Philosophers in Space, so we had a couple minutes on it, and I said a few things. I'm going to repeat myself slightly, but that was very brief, so check that out if you want.

0:02:01 Thomas: But I said, no, I haven't, and the reason is I don't think we should be talking about it. And Eli said that he has the hottest of hot takes, and if I've learned anything from podcasting, it's that when Eli says he has the hottest of hot takes and wants to come on your show, you have them on your show. And so here we go, I don't know, spoilers, hashtag no spoilers, or something, that's what he, that's where we are, so let's do it.

0:02:36 Thomas: And I'm joined by my bad friend, Eli Bosnick. How you doing, Eli?

0:02:42 Eli: Thomas, thank you for having me. We're tellers of truth. Just a reminder, if there is anything before or after this audio, I will take my own life and then I will come after you. I mean, if there's intro music, Thomas, we are both going, I will pull you down into Tartarus with me.

0:03:04 Thomas: Oh, good times. I'm so excited to have you. When my, okay, look, there's a little bit of overlap here. I didn't plan any of this, but because I just recorded Philosophers in Space and we talked about this a tiny bit, and then I had no idea, but unbeknownst to me, but notes to Eli, Eli, my bad friend Eli Bozink texted me and says, do you want to do, I have the, I have the hottest of hot takes on milkshaking and I said, I love it. The one thing my, cause my take has been, we need more talk about the milkshake thing. We just, there's, hasn't been enough. We need another two

0:03:37 Eli: We're not focused enough on The milkshakes. Milkshakes, yeah, I was sad to have the same. I thought I was so original, and then I was like, "Thomas, here's my sweet, sweet, scalding hot take," and you were like, "I think the same thing" and I was like all

0:03:42 Thomas: Weeks. Well, I'm not, I're not sure. I'm, I, I not totally sure, but I, we might be thinking a similar thing, but I'll let you go ahead. Head. I've already had a little bit of a say on the other show. Check that out if not, but we'll go into more depth here. It was only, you know, five minutes on the other show, so don't worry, listeners. Here we go. Eli, give me your hottest of hot takes.

0:04:08 Eli: Right, everybody, prepare yourself, because this is, this is a lava hot take, all right.

0:04:15 Eli: Milkshaking is a fake controversy created by the right to make you fight with people you otherwise wouldn't be fighting with there.

0:04:23 Thomas: Totally agree. Turn off the show.

0:04:26 Eli: We go, we did it, look, you already downloaded it, you might, might as well hear us out. So look, come on, gather around, cause look, the trolls are all gone. There's that right-wing guy who also listens to Opening arguments, who like says he listens to this show, but they're, they're all gone, right? It's just us.

0:04:36 Thomas: I know. That guy emails us so much. So much. Uh, is

0:04:43 Eli: Yeah. He's got some proof. He's not well, he's doing his own thing, but it's just us pull up a chair. I'm going to explain why your brother is so upset about the milkshake. Come on, come on, sit on on down, sit on, you can use a cushion if you want. Don't sit on the floor. It's weird to sit on the floor. That's why. Just sit in a chair like a person. Okay. It's fine. You're sitting where you're sitting. It's fine. Gather up. Here's the thing.

When something bad happens to a bad person, the right has to spin that, right? So I'm going to make up a fake person because I don't want to get anyone mad. So I'll just make up the craziest names I can think of. Yaxley John Lennon, Right. Let's say there's a guy whose name is Yaxley Lennon. All right. And he is producing a man on the street interview run by Rebel Media, which is a famous white supremacist news source. And he walks up to a random Indian looking gentleman who actually turns out is an Indian, which makes it a bit better. And he's like, hey, man, how come you Indians always come over here and steal all our stuff because you're an inferior race? And that gentleman who is holding a milkshake throws it at him, because that's what you do

0:05:30 Thomas: That Really?

0:05:59 Eli: When someone does it. I

0:05:59 Thomas: Hold on, is that Really, what, the what happened? The first one, I didn't even get all that. That, is the oranges The oranges of the milkshake.

0:06:03 Eli: Believe that is the origins of milkshaking as a concept. Now, my New Zealand brothers and sisters, look, you have dildo girl, you have egg boy. I'm not saying that that gentleman owes throwing food at douchebags. I would never make that claim. But that's where I believe milkshaking comes from, and I'm happy to be corrected. I read it on a Yik Yak. That's all I'm going to say. All right. Got a lot of deep cuts. If you've been listening for seven years, you're in on all of these right now. So this thing happens to my made up guy, Yaxley Lennon, and he's embarrassed and he's covered in milk and he's a piece of shit who can't even get popular by trying to bust like white supremacist child sex rings at this point. So it's just terrible to be him. So he's got two things. The first is he's got to tell his people to get violent. And he does that, right? He's got his bodyguards who run over and they try and punch, but they're fat and terrible, so they fail.

0:06:10 Thomas: Okay.

0:07:01 Eli: But the second thing he's got to do, right, is he's got to spin it to your weird, somewhat liberal, somewhat conservative brother, right? He's got to spin this to him. So the message he sends out is, I got assaulted. What do you think Think about me getting assaulted. Now look, come on, Antifa, have a seat. Come on there, Papineen, get off the barricades for a second. We're not violent, right? We just like when bad things happen to bad people, right? When Indiana Jones punches the Nazi into the helicopter thing, we're not suggesting a new law where we push people into helicopter blades, right? We just like the thing when the bad thing happens to the bad people, but he's got your brother. He's got your brother. He's got him right by his reasonable, old, gray, white testicles because your brother says, hey, I don't like violence. And and when I used to think bad things, someone was nice and they explained it to me. And that's why I'm a good person now. And so when he hears someone say that, he feels the need. He falls for it.

And I I fell for it, too. I fell for it on the other side. But we all fall for it, right? He feels the need to say milkshaking is assault and milkshaking is wrong. And then you and him start to argue, right? And my fake guy, Yaxley Lennon, he walks away.

0:07:40 Thomas: Mm-hmm.

0:08:26 Eli: He goes back to his house where he makes fake news about how snakes are trying to climb into your pee hole because they let too many Asians into the colleges, whatever. He's doing his thing. But now you and your brother are fighting about something neither of you believes, states, right? Because the answer is both, right? Am I racist? I'm born in upstate New York. I have huge racial bias issues. Yeah. And argument worked on me. Argument works on some people. Reason works on some people. Bullets worked on Hitler. There's a little bit of this and a little bit of that. But the argument that Yaxley Lennon has set up that he wants you to fall for is that it's either your way or the other guy's way. And the milkshake fight, much like the punching Nazis fight, is all a nothing burger, right?

0:09:17 Eli: Because all he actually does is he goes, hey, they assaulted me. This is going to lead to more, right? And we know it's not going to. And a great example of this, right? A great example of just an absolute fool who fell for this in the hardest of ways is podcaster and comedian Eli Bosnick. On this podcast, I came on this podcast like 2,436 episodes ago, and I was like, Thomas, I don't know. Do we punch Nazis? Do we not punch Nazis? Because in my head, we were like, Liz Warren was going to come on the floor.

0:09:34 Thomas: Yeah, oh, yeah.

0:09:50 Thomas: We're drafting up the battle plans and stuff, we're like, we had had that giant like atlas or whatever, and we're pushing the like puncher thing, like figurines to one side, and all the Nazis were on the other.

0:09:52 Eli: Exactly. I was ready for the episode. They're playing diplomacy, but only my figurines get to punch. No one falls for this shit more than me. I already fell for the milkshake thing, right? No one falls for this more than me. But the moment you stop having the is it right or wrong to milkshake argument, the moment you refuse that conversation, it's just a bad thing happening to a bad person and we stop fighting amongst ourselves.

0:10:02 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Uh, I, I, you know what, we are so on the same page on this, I think, because I, you know, I argued with you on the punching thing and I, I tried to separate it back then. I think I was a little bit wrong, probably. I think I eventually figured out that it was, it's sort of like, um, similar to how they got, uh, Bernie, I think it was on Fox with the third trimester abortion thing, which the answer needs to be that's fucking bullshit. That doesn't exist. And it's a talking point that I don't even want to think about it. Yes. You could probably find one person who like due to health reasons had to have some sort of procedure, but like, it doesn't exit. It's a fake thing. It's a fake THING.

0:11:04 Eli: It's a trick.

0:11:04 Thomas: And I fell for it a little bit. Yeah.

0:11:05 Eli: It's when did you stop being your wife? We

0:11:07 Thomas: Yeah, and uh, and I felt for a little bit, but I think at the time I was trying to set, you know, separate, like, how how we feel about it having happened from "are you going to do it." And now I think we've, I think we've just, just reached this delightful marriage that, right, we both, I think, you know, you were a little more punchy and then you got this one, has a little less punchy, and now we're just, we just are gay marrying on this as hard as possible, because what my new stance is, I only want this conversation to happen if you are holding a milkshake and you're within, I'll give you 25 feet of a made up Yaxley Lennon or, you know, Nigel Farage. That's the only time. That'S the only TIME this conversation matters. If you are HOLDING a milkshake, or if you are about, if someone, if, I'LL give you another one, maybe you're the anti-milkshake thing. If you ARE holding a milk shake and someone asks you like, like, Hey, can I use your milkshake?

I'm about to go throw it at it. That's the only time this matters. And for everybody else, you, you God, it's as though you put it well, but like it's as though for fucking a month, we've been having this conversation as though we're all, there's the great milkshake wars.

0:11:33 Eli: Are. It's the perfect union. I mean, boba,

0:12:22 Thomas: We're all we're on. It's like the clone wars. You know, we're all a bunch of clones of the same bounty hunter with a milkshake. Like instead of, instead instead of the gun or whatever we all have in the, and we're all like drawing up the battle plans and it's just, it's such a fucking nothing. It's that's good. I like it.

0:12:39 Eli: Reduced fat, milkshake. And let's talk about the disagreement that people are having, because the reason why this is such a brilliant rhetorical trick, and it's been used forever, by the way. Like, credit to me, I'm a doofus, but like, it's an old trick, is that the conversation that I'm having when I say, yes, punch a Nazi, or yes, toss a milkshake, is I see abortion rights being stripped away, I see people being killed, I see babies in cages. I am of the opinion that conversation doesn't work because conversation, in my opinion, should have solved this and it hasn't solved it. So conversation doesn't work. On the other side, the anti-punching, anti-milkshake person has an experience of conversation working or a longer lens on time, right?

0:12:50 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yep.

0:13:05 Thomas: Well, or, or I'll put it, you know, went back, back in the Nazi punching argument. I was just worried. Like if we're going to, if the rule is we're Going to start doing that, then they're going to win. You know, they have the guns and stuff. They're the crazy gun hoarding nut job. So I just for for safety reasons, I didn't want to embark down that road.

0:13:37 Eli: Absolutely. And The answer, right, the... The real answer, the hard answer, is that sometimes violence is necessary, and sometimes conversation is necessary, but the only thing the right wants you to do is make an enemy of people who think that you are different enough from them that they need to peel off to the right. Look, the reason your brother is so obsessed with the milkshaking, and I know this because... because I experienced this, this is a huge part of transformation, right?

Is not just realizing, "Hey, I had some problems." It is that you have some problems, right? And if the right can convince your brother or your weird centrist libertarian friend on Facebook, that the fact that he thought, "Look, who's talking to trans misogynistic parts were funny" means he's going to get milkshaked. They can steal his clicks and dollars, right? And that's all they need. They just need to steal his clicks and dollars. It doesn't matter that he's going to vote for Liz Warren. It doesn't matter what he's going to do. They only need to peel off one with the fake argument, right? And they've achieved their goal. So the way to counter this argument, silly as it seems, is just to refuse to have it. Refuse, just be like, nope, you got to give me my jacket back.

Give me my jacket back. You borrowed it last week. You said you were cold. You needed to walk home. And just keep saying that until someone stops talking about whether milkshakes are assault or not. It's OK to be happy when bad things happen to be bad people.

0:15:16 Eli: It's because

0:15:15 Thomas: I totally agree. I was trying to put it a certain way on the other show. And I think the best I can do is like we need to treat this like somebody you don't know is asking about an argument that their friend is having with their spouse. And you're just like, I don't, I don't know, man, I'm not there. I don't, it doesn't matter. Like if I were that person, like in that argument, in that moment, that might be, you know, okay, I'll give an opinion. But like you say, Flint doesn't have fucking water. Like, you know, trans rights are being rolled back worse than ever. And all, just all this stuff is that global warming, all this stuff. And I think there's a number of different ways that people use this. I think you've definitely hit on one. I think there's, there's just an appeal. We're at such a disadvantage on the left in so many ways, it feels like, you know, because like why bad people are so much better at everything. They're so much better at being bad.

0:16:10 Eli: They're not confined by the truth. Right. It does.

0:16:11 Thomas: Exactly. And so what you you're always mathematically, if if left and right ish are 50 50 ish and one side will actually care about things like civility and, you know, and free speech arguments and freedom of expression, you're going to peel off what 10 percent, whatever percent. And in a 50-50 contest, that's vital. You're always trying to peel off at the margins, whatever you can. There's always a certain number of liberals who are like, well, I remember from social studies that someone said, I may not agree with you, but I'll defend to the death your right to disagree. And I liked it. It was stirring music.

0:16:37 Eli: Yeah.

0:16:51 Eli: Yep. It was great. Also, I'm white. So, you know, what you're saying almost certainly doesn't affect me. So someone else defending your right to say it actually sort of doubles down on your hurting people who aren't me. Oh, you know what I just realized is that I'm actually not talking about free speech at all because the Locke-ish marketplace of ideas, if I tried to read that book, I would ask for a refund on Audible. So instead, I am going to accuse you of thinking thinking it's okay to assault people and we're done. And

0:16:58 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. The Best is it like it's one thing when we're talking actual violence, like that's that's that's tough. I, you know, I don't, it's hard to want to be like, yeah, go out and punch people. I'm not. But like, it's a fucking milkshake. You know, they're doing this. Oh, milkshake it. I just looked it up. In three jurisdictions, milkshaking is a misdemeanor. So are you, that's a crime. And you know what else is a crime? Beheading someone. So are you saying that we should go behead everybody that we don't agree with? Safe.

0:17:56 Eli: Then the best part is, for them, they go, should we behead everyone you don't agree with? And you're like, come on, man, you're a piece of crap. And your brother or your buddy who doesn't know this trick jumps in and he goes, hey, Thomas, man, don't advocate for committing crimes. And you're like, no, dude, I'm not advocating for committing crimes. And you're like, you are, because that's literally a crime though. And you're like, no, no, I know it's literally a crime, but what I'm trying to, and then And you're fine. And he and Yaxley Lennon is back home talking about the snake penises. He's already home because he doesn't care what you actually think, because What's true doesn't matter. It doesn't matter to him. Right. And all. And here's the best thing. And I challenge anyone listening to this to really apply this in their life. The next time someone brings up the milkshaking thing, right, has one strong stance or another, other, just start having an entirely different argument. Just So they could just be like, you took my jacket, you said, hey, it's

0:18:11 Thomas: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or

0:18:56 Eli: Cold. Do you mind if I wear it back to my car? And then don't stop until they stop talking about milkshakes. Look.

0:19:01 Thomas: Just start, uh, you know what we all should do, is memorize a list of names of, uh, either kids who have died in detainment or in detention, or of maybe black people have been shot by police, and just be like, hey, what about this? And they're like, I don't know who that is. And like, so interesting, you know, the intricate details of a fucking milkshaking. That, it doesn't matter. But you have no idea about the children who are dying in detention. It's nothing. It should not make the top billion things that we talk about. That's my main take.

0:19:29 Eli: It's In and It's It's important to acknowledge smart, well-meaning People fall for this trick.

0:19:38 Thomas: Yeah. Definitely.

0:19:40 Eli: Right, because what this trick appeals to, right. Right. And the reason why I fell for it, hook, line and sinker is, hey, you're smart. You're reasonable. You can just explain this and then everyone will agree with you because there's only one right answer. And you tell any white guy, but especially me. Oh, I am. Look, arguments work on some people and some people are like, actually, the guy who voiced the Disney crews was black. You're a racist. Right. There are some people who that works on. And then there are some people who it doesn't. Right. But the point is, every time you engage in this conversation. Right. Which is a conversation that nobody on the left is actually having. Right. There's no escalation. This isn't going anywhere. The left isn't getting more violent. Right. Right. One hundred percent of the terrorism of last year was all right wingers.

0:19:50 Thomas: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hm.

0:20:35 Eli: It's a hundred to one. It was a shutout. Right. We should have gotten mercy ruled a quarter of the way through the year. Your little league coach should have come over and been like, who wants two popsicles? And then the white supremacists, they get three or something. I don't know. We should have been mercy ruled out. There's no escalation coming. Right. This is entirely a trick of the right to get you to fight with people who would otherwise be on your side.

0:20:38 Thomas: Yeah.

0:20:59 Thomas: And It's also, again, another layer of the pointlessness is, as though the people, the guy you talked about who just, you know, Yaxley Lennon, goes up and starts interviewing, being a racist asshole toward him, as though he had consumed a steady diet of, like, "Well, I'm gonna, okay, first before I go out today, I'm going to Google milkshaking, yes and no, and I'm, I'm all, two tabs open, two windows open, one just like 40 tabs of, like, pro milkshiking the other, like, 50 tabs, tabs, anti, you know, like, that's, it's not, it's irrelevant, no, nobody is making this decision, like, it's not a real thing that anybody faces." A couple of people found themselves with milkshakes, or, and by the way, like, that's a pretty bold thing, like, how many people are actually doing this, you now, what was there, a handful? You know, the amount of time, the New York Times, every major outlet had to talk about this. So let's just put it to bed. Well, just the last comment. This is you and I last conversation.

0:21:46 Eli: Four, five, we did it.

0:22:00 Thomas: We're done.

0:22:00 Eli: It's the final conversation.

0:22:01 Thomas: That's the last one about it. Now let's go on for another 20 minutes.

0:22:01 Eli: We made it. Look, here's the hard thing to accept about this conversation. Look, there are going to be doofusauruses who fall for this conversation and in doing so empower the right. If you deny them the attention, it will will go away, right? When Doofusaurus221 on Twitter, who's got 10,000 followers and is a liberal, right, but just can't seem to stop talking about problems with the left, even though there are babies in cages, right? When he bites the milkshake bait, right, and you give that attention, you prove to him his thesis, right? Because his thesis is that the left is right, but it isn't nice enough. And the reason his thesis is the left is right, but it isn't nice enough is because he hasn't experienced what it's like to be on the other side of the rights oppression, right?

0:22:59 Eli: He hasn't been a woman of color. He hasn't been a trans person. He hasn't been a queer person 99% of the time, right? All he has experienced is mean tweets. And I got to tell you, a lot of us are based on our experience. Some people are better than that. I wish I could to say I was, right? But the truth of the matter is the reason why I know anything I know that is liberal or leftist or anything is because really patient, really nice people explained things to me really nicely. And the reason why Jerkwad221 on Twitter just doesn't seem to get it is because the only consequences he will ever face for the current political climate are people on the left sending him angry tweets.

0:23:13 Thomas: I Agree. And, you know, when you talk about the slippery slope and stuff, these are really, really shitty people who are getting, again, not violence, not a bullet, not an attack, just some dairy on them. Um, this isn't, you know, you brought up earlier, like, yeah, people have had some bad views, you know, you and I both have had bad views in our past. I was, you know, raised really shitty and Fox Newsy, so I had a bunch of bad views. I We're not, no part of this, nobody is out there milkshaking your average, you know, like, watches Fox News person.

This is ring leaders of racist, nativist, weird, weird, you know, like, yeah, I know, it's not even close, so it's so many levels of stupid, you know, I had another, I did want to talk about one thing, which is the, all the predictions, you know, about, I, I have a guy tweeting at me, this, tell you what this will do, only gonna do more votes for them, everybody's gonna be sympathetic, they'll be like, oh, I feel sorry for Carl and Nigel and all these people, and I was like, what's your proof of that, and then they, of course, so they were mad at me.

I don't know what I'm just expressing my opinion. And, and, uh, but then they, but I appreciate this. This guy did the research, which I love. I always love when someone comes at me with a clearly unsubstantiated view that's based on nothing. And then it's like, oh, well, if you're going to ask me, I Googled for a day and I found one article from 2002 or something, you know, like that's what they like.

0:24:26 Eli: Gangs. And

0:25:16 Thomas: That was obviously the justification the whole time. And he found a study that talked about, like, you know, if it went through the thing, if people find a political movement to be violent, does it discount the favorability, and and also does it increase the favor ability of the other side. And, like, there are some, some results, you know, like, it, there's some significant, like, it, people were a little more sympathetic if there is violence against a group, but, like, a this was violence, like, actual, the way it's defined in the surveys was like they're kicking and punching, like they're out beating people up. It's, you know, know it's not milkshaking, it's not fucking you get the walk they do from like milkshake that equals crime equals violence equals guns and death squats. It's, it's enormous.

0:26:01 Thomas: But also, we saw the election results now, and none of those guys - I mean, Nigel Farage's party did well, but the other three guys did nothing, nothing, they got - let, they were horrible, no good results, less than projected, like.

0:26:18 Eli: Again, it's just a reminder, the dishonest move here is always going to be to move the goalposts backwards to whether or not conversation works, right? The dishonest twist on what Thomas just said is simply, so you're saying it's okay to throw things at people when you disagree with them, right? Which is not what Thomas is saying, right? But that's a conversation that you can only have at someone. And because it doesn't matter to them whether or not what they're saying is true, they don't care. And the reason we fall for it is because the hard answer is both, right? Look, it's about to be pride month. Pride celebrates the time trans women threw bricks at cops, but it also celebrates will and grace, which won the hearts and minds of America. And both of those things are true. You can't have one without the other. Movements are both. And anyone trying to convince you that you can only have one, that one has failed and only the other one will succeed, is selling you something.

0:26:18 Thomas: Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

0:27:24 Thomas: And we also have done this thing lately regarding gay rights, where we just, it's assumed that, like, yeah, gay right, it's fine, everything is fine, we have gay marriage, everything's all fine, like, forgetting that a minute ago, you know, conservatives were die hard against it, and they still are, actually, and once this horrible court rolls it back, they will still, they will not be in favor of gay marriage, like, anyway.

0:27:33 Eli: Right. Yeah.

0:27:45 Thomas: And yeah, the idea that it's just disagreement - there's all these little cheats. They're so good at this annoying, time-wasting bullshit. And why, ultimately, again, I want to just echo what you said, the perfect response is talk about something else. Like, don't even do it. You're totally

0:28:00 Eli: Talk about how great Elizabeth Warren is. Talk about her awesome plan to enshrine abortion into law so that states like Missouri and Arkansas and Texas and Banana Anaheim, New Jersey, can't do this stuff. Talk about that stuff. Because I'll tell you what, your brother also falls for that. Look, if your brother starts to post about milkshaking, just message him and be like, hey man, seems like you're having a hard day. I saw this article about Elizabeth Warren. It reminded me of a lot of the stuff you said. Has he ever said anything like that? No, he's a doof nozzle. He's never said anything like that, but he thinks he's smart and he thinks he's reasonable. So he's going to fall for it. You're smart like Elizabeth Warren Warren works 100% of the time. But I have a promise for you because you're sitting at home, right? You're thumbing at your Antifa bracelet just like I am, just like I am. And you're feeling a little blue. But I'll tell you what happens when you don't fall for the right tricks. And it might convince you. They

0:28:01 Thomas: Right. Do it. Anything. Anything.

0:28:13 Thomas: Yeah.

0:28:29 Thomas: It.

0:28:58 Thomas: Went

0:28:59 Eli: Eat each other because the moment they get bored, they turn on each other and they start to devour their flesh. Now, again, I don't want to give specific examples. Examples. So I'm just going to make up a crazy, like super white sounding name. Dave. What's like a crazy white set? Ruben. Dave Ruben. Right. Let's say there was a guy named Dave Ruben. Right. And then someone what's a stupid name for like an online newspaper that's like, I'm so smart because I have a pen and a quill. Yeah, the Quill newspaper. But I'm a lady. So it's the Quillette. Right. So the Quillette writes this takedown article of Dave, I forget what I gave him the last name, but this Dave guy. So then he goes on a Twitter rant where he tags all the people that she was mad at and they retweet it and they start to fight amongst themselves.

0:29:49 Eli: And then he tweets a video about how not mad he is about the thing, but then reiterating all of his points about how mad he is. And then you remember that free speech conference they were going to have last year that we all ignored, the Leroy's free speech conference, but then they started to fight over the – right?

0:30:06 Thomas: Slightly Better Than Fire Festival. No.

0:30:08 Eli: The NDA thing. Here's the thing. If you leave them alone, if you stop falling for their tricks for just a second – and that doesn't mean give them a platform. That doesn't mean let them do their horrible shit, right? It just means you don't fall for their tricks. They eat each other, and their Patreons get deleted. Sometimes they do it on purpose because they're going to start their own Patreon any minute now. And then they disappear. They disappear, and they have to sell their golden share.

0:30:17 Thomas: Yeah, I'll Never forget The People who tried to tell us, "oh, Milo's deletion from Twitter, oh, you'll only make him stronger." You've You seen That Uh, from the first Star Wars movie, "he'll be, he'll haunt you'll be everywhere if you strike him down," and Uh, no, he's Totally Fucking, he's, he's auctioning his bullshit prop comedies.

0:30:40 Eli: Only make them stronger. It's only stronger. Zero bids. It is literally the background screen of my computer. The background screen of my computer is The eBay Screenshot

0:30:59 Thomas: It's to The point Where I Almost Was like, do I need, should I bid on some of the stuff just because, like, you know, just To sell, just to, just to, you know, the bare parts are probably worth, you know Like if

0:31:01 Eli: Absolutely Absolutely Just Give It to a woman of color, just Give it to a woman of Color

0:31:09 Thomas: Yeah Just The Bare Scrap metal of whatever it Is he's the nonsense throne or whatever he's got

0:31:12 Eli: Yep Who Played Captain Marvel, I would just Send it all to her, just my gift to Her, I just put it in props and Captain Marvel two and Three

0:31:19 Thomas: Yeah But I just, uh One More thing I was started saying and then, uh, lost track of was just that, again, like you said, they frame it as, "oh, anyone you disagree with," no, no, a disagreement is like, do you think that sometimes we could trim some government waste or do, that's a disagreement, like, "oh, is this going to be the smartest way to do gun reform," you know, the, uh, the, the idea, idea that like, "well, someone needs to defend the white race from the, like, mongrels that are like immigrating in and having too many kids and stopping us from having babies and eliminate genociding." That's not a disagree. That's not any

0:31:25 Eli: No

0:32:04 Thomas: Disagreement. You know, that's not just. Yeah.

0:32:06 Eli: And You are happy for bad things to happen to bad people. It's okay, it's okay. Look, every time, time, Lindsey Graham has diarrhea, I have a good day, right? And I don't think diarrhea should be a legally enforced punishment. But if I was just, I walked into a bathroom of a low-grade seafood restaurant and I saw Lindsey Graham's security outside and they were like, "he's been in there for a while." I'd be like, "what a great day." I'm happy this is happening to him. I hope it keeps happening forever. That doesn't make it your moral imperative. And anyone who tries to draw you into a debate about whether or not that's your philosophy is either confused and falling for a trick or trying to play a trick on you.

0:32:53 Eli: And in both cases, the best thing you can do is switch to the positive. Because if you switch to the positive, the right will run away and self-destruct. And if you switch to the positive with someone who would otherwise be an ally, they will be distracted by what they agree with you on, we

0:33:12 Thomas: Couldn't say it better. I think we totally agree. I got. Yeah, I mean, did you see, by the way, oh, I had to, did you see uh Carl's video after this Where The title, he gets like four votes because his mom voted four times, and his video is exactly as predicted, uh, it's It's I Know I Know I Just imagine, you know, like it's a similar to a video I'm sure you would do if you ran for office and realized, "hey, wait a minute, I got no votes." Oh, exactly as I predicted.

0:33:15 Eli: Agree, look At us, oh It's amazing Right Oh, it's great, war In 2020, everybody War In 2020 None Votes

0:33:51 Thomas: Sure, I Went through this entire process of campaigning for months, like a grueling campaign, financed by myself and spend money that I don't get back because you have to hit a minimum threshold of votes in order to get your deposit back. Exactly as I projected.

0:34:05 Eli: As Planned, always, always. This is my beer hall push. Let me tell you, I'm gonna, how did that go for him? Did It Go great, right?

0:34:13 Thomas: Good times. I was worried, so but, but my major worry with this whole, uh, yeah, I haven't really talked about it that much on the show at all, but with the uh with the Carl running for office, and even though every single article was, "oh, this dude hit by another fish or another milkshake or whatever," I was in back of my mind I was like, "he's not gonna win anything," but is this just pumping his YouTube subscribers, you know, like are we getting enough bite It bites at the apple of the, you know, 0.5 percent of people who are assholes who love assholes, uh, and just getting that media exposure, and I was trying to look at his numbers, and like they're, they're still depressingly good on YouTube, but uh it doesn't look like there's been any major jump or anything, so that's good, and I think he's been demonetized. How the hell are these people still going? Does he, is he, did he marry into somebody who makes money or something, I don't know, how Do these People Do It

0:34:40 Eli: You Never Ever Know. And again, like, I just want to point out the dishonest conversation someone is going to have, right? So you think a father, his son is five years, you think of, you don't want him to be able to feed his kids. What, what are you talking about? You crazy balloon, you crazy, crazy balloon. No one is having that conversation. Vito. No. Give me my jacket back.

0:35:28 Thomas: No Eli The only way you're allowed to make a living is by spouting off anti-feminist stuff and and rape threats that's The Only way If You take away that there's no livelihood to be had, I

0:35:36 Eli: It's the only only possibility. Yeah. And look, there are people who are lost causes. I'm not saying that there aren't people who are lost causes. A lot of them fall for these arguments all the time, right? Because of natural biases they have, or just they can't get over themselves or they're in too deep already, right? We know people in our community who have it. You have people at your job, people in your life who are like that. You do not need to waste your time with them. Those people are our energy sucks. They're going to take your energy away. They're going to take your goodwill away. You can do positive things to negate the damage they're doing, right? Get a phone bank going, empower some people, drive some people to vote, right? Do some good. You do not look. Some people argument will work on, and there are people doing great work on that. But if you are hopeless, if you're lost and you're feeling like the conversation is over, absolutely.

0:36:34 Eli: Absolutely. One of the alternatives to that is for you to turn around and use that for good. Right. You can turn around and you can empower people with marginalized voices. Your choices are not to have the horrible soul sucking conversations that the right wants you to have or do nothing. Thing. Yeah. I just think it's important for us to remember that.

0:36:54 Thomas: Know, unless You're A Uh Unless You're a content creator, then unfortunately you just have to, no, I'm just kidding, but uh, no, I agree, and I also, it's just one part of my process of recognizing, recognizing, I don't know, just the amount of privilege that that that happens in the society for the, not just white privilege, but just the wealthy, the powerful, is just how much more time and energy is spent on bullshit that happened in the UK than there is on, you know, again, migrant children or the people of Flint.

Like, does anybody still talk about the people of Flint other than a couple of lefties who try to bring it up every so often? Like, "hey, did you know they still don't fucking have water?" Just imagine, like, on one hand, you have somebody with some dairy that maybe they have to wash their clothes. On the other hand,you have children who are poisoned. You Have people, imagine, if you found out the government had literally poisoned your children by trying to cost cut so that someone could have a few extra fucking dollars in a contract or whatever it is, you know, like had poisoned your, your child's brain. I mean, we,

0:37:47 Eli: Right. Absolutely.

0:38:04 Thomas: And we just, they just get no fucking airtime. They got a little bit at the time and then, uh, whatever, Puerto Rico, Puerto fucking Rico, all this stuff. That's the point. It's endless.

0:38:07 Eli: Yep. Yep. The list is, yeah, the list is endless. And here's the thing, doing good for those people, volunteering to help out Flint, giving money where you can, helping those people, magnifying their voices, right? In the ways that you know how you can, right? When you feel hopeless, when you feel like conversation as a system has broken down, when you magnify those voices, you solve the problem, because you will lower the volume on the bullshit, right, the bullshit doesn't stand up to the positive reality and the right has

0:38:21 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I agree. I agreed. But, but even if you're not doing that, yeah, no, I agree, But even if you're, you know, even if you're already doing that, or you, you know, you, if you are not in a position to like donate money, whatever, just recognize, I'm just talking about recognizing, like once you start noticing the amount of attention that goes to certain people and things and doesn't to others, it's, it is pretty mind blowing. But, oh

0:38:46 Eli: No answer to reality yeah and Speaking of not having the time or money, one of the things, I, I know this sounds super hippy dippy and wooey, but like, take care of your fucking self. Like we both know, we're very like, we have amazing spouses who support us and incredible friend groups who take care of us. And I, both of us at certain points have just been messes because of the political environment. But like, if you're a mess because of the political environment, one of the positive things you can do is for yourself, like taking care of yourself.

0:39:13 Thomas: Yeah, for sure. Mm-hmm.

0:39:33 Eli: And if you have privilege and you have the energy, yeah, go out, Use your energy. Do positive things with it. Fight for people who need fighting for it. But like if you're like me and you tweet until four in the morning and your wife's like, are you ready to come to bed? And you're like, no, I must fight Nazi nine nine four. He will understand my points if I type a little bit more like take care of yourself as well. These these are real actionable things. And again, they will destroy the rights tricks. Nothing destroys the rights tricks quicker than a fundraiser. I got very, very lucky. Quick story.

0:39:52 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Sure.

0:40:08 Eli: When I did a little Facebook post that got a little bit of traction a year or two ago, that was the Skittles thing. Donald Trump Jr. used a metaphor of if there were poison Skittles.

0:40:09 Thomas: No, no.

0:40:20 Thomas: Mm-mm.

0:40:20 Eli: I wrote a little reply to it and people liked it and they shared it. Because it was a liberal aimed post, trolls came after me. A lot of them were like, "Kill yourself. What have you ever done?" I was very lucky at that time that we were literally in the middle of vulgarity for charity, the fundraiser that Thomas participates in that we all do once a year for Modest Needs, and I got to say, "Hey, we're actually working on this, you can read about it right here," and to the person, every single troll every single one was like, "Yeah, but," and they vanished.

They vanished because they're not real they're not real, right? It's this social media, this addiction, and I have it worse than anybody, this addiction to pretending that the things assholes say on social media are real or meaningful or what they actually think. It's poisonous. It's like going to Central Park and arguing with the imaginary friends of a guy sitting at the chess table. Just be like, "I'm sorry, did you just say Napoleon, Napoleon said, 'I'm a fat'?" So because Napoleon was only five foot two. Get him. Can I see him?

0:40:35 Thomas: Mm-hm. Yeah. Right.

0:40:57 Thomas: There you go. Yeah.

0:41:32 Thomas: Yeah, that that branches out a little bit, a little bit more. I do think the the internet is pretty much what people believe. I think they are saying what they believe. It's just also there's no point in dealing with a lot of them. And and it's it's like disproportionate representation of certain people, too. You're You're only hearing from the loudest assholes that don't respond to facts.

0:41:51 Eli: I, I think and I know you've had him on the show and we both love his stuff. Ian Danskin put out a video called The Card Says Moops, which I know I've brought up before. But like, I think that's where 90 percent of the so-called like good guys or. Yeah.

0:41:59 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, you're right.

0:42:10 Thomas: There's definitely, that's kind of an alt-right characteristic too, like a 8chan. They do say stuff they don't believe. You're right about that. I guess I meant talking more about like the general public, not like these asshole alt-ripe people.

0:42:24 Eli: But even just even just the figureheads heads that we see falling for the milkshake argument, right? Atheist 411, right? The guy who's got a bad take on literally every controversy in atheism, right? Pick a name,

0:42:28 Thomas: Mm-hmm. I probably, it's the way I know that I've muted these people, but I'll see other people arguing with them on Twitter, you know, I'm tagged in fucking everything. And I'm just like, oh, I am seeing one side of what I imagine is the dumbest argument I've ever heard. Like usually the one person is doing fine that I'm seeing, but it's like, yeah, you have to, you're kind of guessing what you're trying to guessing what the other side is saying. It's like oh my God, this is awesome.

0:42:41 Eli: Right? But the other side is going to, you're just like, oh, how did chickens come into it? Right. But Like, again, that person is probably, in their mind, they are probably an ally. In their mind, they are probably trying to help. But because the card says moops, right? Because the dictionary definition of assault is to throw batter touch or otherwise invade the private space of Yaxley Lennon, right, they're never going to be having an honest conversation

0:43:15 Thomas: Yeah.

0:43:24 Thomas: Well, Yaxley Lennon was shot in New York. What is it? Whatever, whatever, so that's why it's the Yaksley Lennon law that's why they came out the shakes because first John Lennan was hit with a shake and that was a test Mm-hmm.

0:43:29 Eli: Terrible Yep. Because that guy read catcher in the rye that was a starter the

0:43:39 Thomas: Yeah, they're like, okay, coast is clear, seem to be able to land a shake next stop, yeah, next stop guns and I love the thing too, like, oh, they try this and then the next is acid, it's like yeah, when I'm going through the McDonald's and I see the option of do I want a cup of a milkshake or a cup of acid this time, I might, might be like, you know, you know, give me the pure acid, I, I'm feeling frisky today, all

0:43:43 Eli: Previous day Yeah.

0:44:05 Eli: Right, and like, here's the thing, again, just to talk about what people are going to see. Yeah. There are people on Twitter who are like, kill all the, I hope that we get some acid together and we throw some acid on Gaxley. Like, yeah, there's, there's people on Twitter, but those people are coming from a place of hopelessness, right? Right. Those people who have fallen for the trick that only one thing works and they probably tried conversation, saw it fail and feel like they have no other options. And again, no one falls for this more than me. Right.

No one feels more like they're ready to build the barricades and stand there with Eponine than me when I see the Missouri abortion laws. Right. The hard answer to that, that you have to keep doing good work and you have to be patient, is something that feels impossible to bear in those moments. And it especially feels impossible to bear if you're in a position of privilege and you're watching people who aren't in a position of privilege go through tremendous amounts of suffering. It feels like privilege to be patient. It feels like privilege to understand that there are multiple ways to change people's minds. But it's not. It's just the truth. There is no one right way.

0:44:48 Thomas: Right Well, we're out of time, thanks for coming on and agreeing perfectly, finding this awesome marriage of agreement, yes no

0:45:23 Eli: Thomas, thank you for having me on to agree with myself. I'm glad that we did this.

0:45:26 Thomas: Yeah we agree with each other, we'll give, you know, we're gonna see each other a few days here you're gonna give lots of pats on the back

0:45:31 Eli: We're going to There is no possible life that is more filled with liberal smugness than what we're about to do. We came on a podcast, we agreed with each other, and now we're going to go to wine country together.

0:45:48 Thomas: Uh I'm gonna dump a milkshake right on, on Eli's head. First thing when I see him doing it.

0:45:50 Eli: Do it. Do it. They

0:45:52 Thomas: All right. That was awesome. Of course, a million shows that everybody already knows and listens to. Hey, Aaron and I were on God Awful Movies the other week. Make sure to go check that one out. That wasn't a lot of fun.

0:46:03 Eli: Were excellent. They were very funny.

0:46:05 Thomas: And anything else you want to throw out while you're at it? Of course scathing and let's see.

0:46:08 Eli: Scathing atheists.

0:46:09 Thomas: Let's make sure we got a movie citation needed.

0:46:10 Eli: God Awful Movies. Citation needed.

0:46:12 Thomas: I think you're more than me now. No, we're probably the same. But anyway, everybody check those out. Eli, you're the best. I love love you. Thanks for coming on.

0:46:13 Eli: No, same. But yeah. Also, Slime channels on Snapchat. Give it a try, people. Really helps. Just people cutting into slime.

0:46:25 Thomas: What? Oh, I thought you were, I was trying to figure out either the joke you were making or the, yeah, but okay, cool. Will do.

0:46:33 Eli: I'm telling you. Do it.

[0:46:37] (over the outro music) It's a sex thing. I didn't hit stop. That's right. All right, stopping there.

0:47:01 Thomas: All right, thanks to Eli for coming on. I think that he is exactly right, we 1000% agree, this is not a conversation to have, just start talking about other things. It's not, just don't do it, it's going to happen again! Again, it's going to happen again with some other thing. Someone will, uh, they'll do the trick where one person gets on down on their knees and then the other person shoves the guy over, and they'll do that to Richard Spencer. It'll be the old shove-the-guy-over-the-guy-on-the-knees trick, hands and knees trick. And, uh, there'll be a whole conversation. And maybe there, is there a phrase for that? I did. Maybe they will come up with one, sort of like milkshaking or whatever. It'll be that, it'll, it'll be the hands and knees, trip the guy trick. And there'll be a whole debate for four months about whether or not we should do that. Should we do that? And I think Eli is exactly right that we should just not have that conversation.

0:47:48 Thomas: Just don't even do it. Just talk about something else. Talk about anything else. All right. Thank you for listening. Please support the show. patreon.com/seriouspod. That's the best way to do it, it will not survive without support from fine, fine folks like you. So thank you so much to those who do support it. And if you can't, no harm done, no worries, I get it, uh, not everybody can, that's totally okay. But maybe share out the episode if you enjoy it, and that's a good way to help the show. Uh, and for bonus points do both those things. All right, thank you for listening, I will see you next time.