SIO193: The JV IDW, and More - with Eiynah

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only, this is episode 193, and I'm your host, Thomas Smith. This week, I'm bringing you an interview with Eiynah, she's at NiceMangoes on Twitter, of course, she is a Pakistani-Canadian who has had a blog for a long time. She's also a brilliant illustrator who has done a lot of great work over the years. I think we came up in the atheism movement, the new atheism movement, I think in a similar fashion, I'm pretty sure, except other than the fact that she's ex-Muslim. So that has put her in a kind of a different crowd and has also, of course, made her a very popular target among some people, because I've often said that ex-Muslims have it kind of the worst of everybody because they get a ton of hate from Muslims.

0:01:16 Thomas: They get a lot of hate. They get hate from atheists if they're not the right kind of ex-Muslim. So we've talked a lot about that over the years. And we've had a similar kind of distancing from certain people from, you know, I think we both were big Sam Harris fans at one point. And then that obviously changed for many reasons. Anyway, lovely conversation with that. This was really just catching up, I guess, content warning, parenting, we talked about, I just had a baby recently, and of course I did as well, so we talked abut that for the first few minutes, feel free to fast forward if you're not interested in that, but it was very fun, and I also want to say that we talked talk about a number of things. And I realized as I was editing this show that because we go back a ways and because we've dealt in a lot of the same circles on Twitter and all that and kind of argued with the same people and all that, we have a lot shorthand.

0:02:12 Thomas: We have a lot of incidents and people we talk about in ways that if you are like a new listener would probably be pretty confusing. So what I, what I'm going to do is I'll actually just pop in the show notes, I'm going to, I took a note whenever there was a name we mentioned that was not, like, you know, some widely known figure.

I'm not going to do it for everybody, obviously, but whenever somebody was mentioned that maybe you aren't familiar with, or an incident that maybe you're not familiar with. And there's not too many, but you know, half a dozen or so, I'm going to just make a little note in the show notes.

So if you hear something you're confused about, there'll be a little node and a link, you know, to maybe something that, that breaks that, that down, whatever it is, just, just as a little helper in case you're maybe a new listener and don't understand a reference or something. It's tough when you go around in circles with a lot of these intellectual dark web people and other atheists that all seem to come at you in the same ways,

0:03:06 Thomas: It is hard to remember how much of that is probably unfamiliar to a lot people, so hopefully that helps, but I think this is a great conversation and we talk about a lot lot of stuff. We, you know, we start off kind of catching up, talking about a number of different issues. And then about halfway through, we get to what I think is a really important topic. Just wanted to signpost here. We talk about the, a little bit about the attack in New Zealand and about the response and how, what a proper kind of liberal orientation toward Islam could and should be and maybe where it's falling short and, you know, should should leaders be wearing hijabs in solidarity? All those tough questions. Eiynah helps us think our way through. Enough preamble, here is my conversation with Eiynah, host of the Polite Conversations Podcast.

0:04:08 Eiynah: Thomas Smith Destroys Eiynah Good,

0:04:13 Thomas: Oh, I'm so glad I hit record just in time for that. How's it going, Eiynah?! Oh, good, yeah, I-I'm gonna... You-you-you uncovered my secret plan, I just got done telling Eiynah how I was... Yeah, let's just, uh, let' do a nice friendly interview here and then, uh... Yeah you-you realized what I was actually gonna do was my best impression of that BBC guy on, uh-on Ben Shapiro, so... What was that guy's name?

0:04:20 Eiynah: Good, how are you?

0:04:42 Eiynah: Yeah, I don't remember his name, but that was an interesting interview. Facts don't care about feelings guy got really upset.

0:04:46 Thomas: Yeah, I... Right, debate me, Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. Not like that. Why won't anyone debate me? No, don't debate me, I think was how it went.

0:04:57 Eiynah: And it was really the gentlest of questioning, like, he was just being asked to back up his own positions, like surely he should be able to do that.

0:05:00 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Good times. It's funny when people, I guess people on the right in the US, I don't know, maybe you can talk about what it's like in Canada, but I think in the US, they don't understand how good they have it in terms of the echo chamber and the safe space that people on the right have here most of the time. And in I think in the UK, on certainly on certain, uh, political programming, they're like, "No, we're not doing that, we're gonna actually challenge you." I kind of want to talk about that principle, though. It wasn't what I meant to talk to you about. And by the way, how are you doing, Eiynah? Nice to talk to you. I know you have a baby since we've last spoken.

0:05:33 Eiynah: Yeah. Yeah. And

0:05:46 Thomas: I do, yeah. How old is your baby now? A couple months?

0:05:45 Eiynah: So do you. He's Four months

0:05:50 Thomas: Four months, okay. Yeah, mine is already somehow over a month. Yeah. A little over a month. So, oh, it's

0:05:50 Eiynah: Now. It's amazing how fast that happens. You're running around like a zombie in a blur, and then bam.

0:06:01 Thomas: Insane. And I don't, I just don't even understand it. Like, it It really, I don't blame people 300 years ago for being all religious. Because, like, how do we, you just give it some milk and it just grows. I don't understand it. Like, it just, they grow so much. I don't understand how anything works. It''s amazing. And, you know, this is my second child, and the minute I had, uh, we had Arlo, Phoebe just looked gigantic. Like, we thought, we thought we had, like, this baby, you know? Who was, uh... One, you know, about one and a half.

0:06:31 Eiynah: Are How old is she?

0:06:32 Thomas: She is, so she, now she is... I have to do the month math. Cause, like when I say one, it's, that's not specific enough, cause she's not, she's almost two, essentially. Uh, I, I will save my, so she's, yeah, twenty, probably probably 21 months now. Like she just, so, um, she, she was our baby. And then the minute we had an actual baby, you forget how tiny they are. And then she's, she is, uh, Yao Ming over here. Like she's just this gigantic person now. I can't even get over it. So it's been fun. Are you, uh... I know it's a little rough, obviously, the newborn stuff, but how are you holding up? Is it, uh—you going okay? Yeah.

0:06:42 Eiynah: So like 20 months or something, yeah.

0:06:53 Eiynah: Oh, I mean, I just had a really rough night last night. So, so this might not be the best time to ask me.

0:07:10 Thomas: Yeah. I Uh, it's, it's been rough over here as well. I think we maybe just got over some sort of growth spurt thing, I, because he was, yeah, he was, oh man, he was real bad. We, it, we had the totally stereotypical thing where it's like the first one is great, and everyone's like, "Oh, well, sometimes when the first one's great, the second one which I think is all nonsense, but, or just, Just, you know, it's just random, I think. But anyway, we did have that where he was just very difficult for, well, up until like yesterday.

0:07:22 Eiynah: That's good.

0:07:44 Eiynah: And that can change again and again. So yeah,

0:07:46 Thomas: Exactly. Yeah. But we've got a new record, like days since last awful day. You know, we have that sign, you Know, we got like two. So that's good. Well, so, but anyway, I'm so happy for you and I'm glad that's going well. I know it is very challenging, especially for the mother. But thank you very much. Back to, let's see, back to this Ben Shapiro safe space stuff. You know, this is something that I think I think you're in an environment where you see this a lot. And I am too, to a certain extent. But I think with your with your blogging, this is something that maybe you've you've encountered a little more than me, which is how do you feel about this idea that that people like Dave Rubin and others are claiming in the wake of this Ben Ben Shapiro interview. They're like, oh, how dare you dig up old tweets? And I can't believe that the blah, blah, you know, like, do you give any credence to this argument, to this idea that, you know it, should there be some like time period where, you Know, it's, it kind of, yeah,

0:08:02 Eiynah: I'm happy for you too. Awesome.

0:08:45 Thomas: Go ahead.

0:08:46 Eiynah: Well, it depends, right? If your views have completely changed and you've acknowledged that you had like terrible views or whatever, then yeah, yeah, I totally think that you shouldn't have to repeatedly, repeatedly apologize for something that you've already admitted and changed your views on. But if you have the same exact views, then it doesn't matter, Like, if you're still a homophobe and someone digs up your 10-year-old homophobic tweets, but you're Still a homophobe, I mean, it's, yes.

0:09:07 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, right. And I think with, with Ben Shapiro too, it is like what What happened was he figured out to be a little less obviously off. So like his his quote about, you know, Arabs just want to live in raw sewage or not. Sorry, not Saudis. Arabs, Arabs just wantto live in rough sewage. And I think I think he's particularly sensitive about it because I know he still thinks that he just figured out like, oh, I need to try to not be too clear about this. Which makes it even, I think, more appropriate to bring up.

0:09:30 Eiynah: Arabs, yeah. Yeah.

0:09:47 Eiynah: But that's the thing, right? Bigotry evolves and it shines, it shines itself up and it gives itself a new veneer and I just, you know, it tries to find ways to keep working when people recognize it for what it is. And that's what like all sorts of far right movements and groups have done, right. There's like, even like Nazis have polished up their act and they've traded in their boots for suits as I've heard, uh, I think Christian Picciolini, the ex-Nazi, say yeah

0:09:50 Thomas: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's scary stuff. And I always forget that Ben Shapiro worked for Breitbart. He had I think he's got a good business sense about him. He knows how to sell his BS thing of he's this brilliant debater and all that crap. And he figured out, I think he's done a good job of figuring out where the money is, you know, like where the, I, I mean, he's kind of a bit of a, one of those windsocks, you know, he just knows that, okay, this, this Breitbart stuff is a little too, that's a little too out there, I'm gonna go slightly inward, slightly toward the center where I can be, appear more on Fox News and that kind of thing, but

0:10:53 Eiynah: Like isn't that the IDW niche though, isn't dat what they perfected

0:10:59 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, I- what, okay let's talk about that, huh. I, in some ways I'm so mad that, that we still call it the intellectual dark web in any way, you know, because it's such a stupid phrase that I think it's Eric Weinstein that came up with it. I'm pretty sure. And

0:11:12 Eiynah: Yeah. I believe so, and then he later claimed that it was stupid on purpose, haha, that's what he meant had to do those.

0:11:16 Thomas: Yeah just, uh, I think once a bunch of people pointed out, like, hey, you know, the dark web is where like child pornography is and stuff, it's like, oh, okay, not that, never mind, but it was too late. It was too late. They all had taking photos in some foliage, so there's no... They really are.

0:11:34 Eiynah: Photos are the worst, it's so embarrassing. I cannot believe that they all willingly posed for that. And Sam Harris in the bush is like, I mean, there's this joke that he's like just sprung out of the bushes while someone's trying to take a leak, and it just, it totally fits, you know.

0:11:57 Thomas: Yeah, I think we both interact somewhat with those people, or at least on Twitter, and what is it? I mean, what is your view of what that is? Because there's different people, and they like to claim that they have this ideological diversity, but what do you think it is that ties them all together then?

0:11:59 Eiynah: Yes uh they're anti-left tribalism, it's so obvious, they're anti-SJW-ness, they're a complete, like, you know, they're, they're so all in line, they're still on the same page about that. It's, they, it's absolute bullshit that there's viewpoint diversity, you know, and they claim that, I don't know, Brett Weinstein is their, they're a progressive guy. Did you see his takes on Alabama? I think Tommy Lahren was to the left of him.

0:12:18 Thomas: Yeah.

0:12:44 Thomas: That's kind of what I was going to talk about, which is this weird thing that I've seen like two or three, at least of these IDW people trying to do this centrist abortion thing. And where is this coming from? I don't know. How How do they all get on the same page on this?

0:13:03 Eiynah: I think that's just their core grift, right? They want to feel above everything. They want to fill above the left and above the right, even though they serve the right constantly. And they don't want to admit that they're on the right. So they have to find a way to kind of of like a bit of a lesser further right take, you know, so they can still claim they're on the left. But, I mean, seriously, what the fuck is abortion centrism?

0:13:09 Thomas: Right. Yeah. Yeah.

0:13:32 Eiynah: Right. Sorry, can I swear? I forget. What the bleep is uh, abortion centrismo. Um, what did he say? He said that there's like, like, two screaming fringes and, you know, there's no nuanced debate about this. It's like there's a fringe that wants to take away people's rights, and then there's the fringe that's like, no, women should have control over their own body, what the Fuck.

0:13:34 Thomas: Eh, fine. Sure. I'm it. Either way. Yeah.

0:13:46 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, there's the other side that has the insanely progressive view that the 1973 court decision should maybe just stay. You know, like... it's as though they're, he thinks the right, okay, this on the right, they want no abortion, that's one extreme. On the left, they're going around just killing people, like they're just abducting children and killing them because they're, they're so in love with abortion that they don't even think it's that, like, what, what would be the hypothetical left, you know, like extreme on abortion, it's people should have access to abortion, I don't yeah

0:14:04 Eiynah: Yeah well the way he phrases it, or the way people were phrasing it to me when I said what the is f abortion centrism, um, was, was that they're overly concerned about people having third trimester abortions. And it's like, do you think people are just going around doing that for fun, like waiting till they feel their, you know, feel the fetus move and then have it removed? Like, do You know how painful that is?

0:14:29 Thomas: Right I can't, absolutely. I mean, there are certain things about becoming a parent, a lot of things where I was like, oh man, I, I never had any idea. Look, if you are a dude out there who isn't a dad, hasn't been around pregnant, like, if you think that women would casually get a third trimester abortion, you are out of your fucking mind. Like, it is insane to even consider that. The only way you would do that is if something was dangerously wrong. You know, like there's just no casual third trimestre abortion.

0:15:25 Eiynah: Yeah, right. So this seems to me like a concern troll kind of position like, Like, no, no. No, I'm the reasonable centrist here. I'm only worried about the third trimester abortions that people are going around having all the time just for fun. You know, it's ridiculous.

0:15:45 Thomas: Yeah, and it's the weird thing is James Lindsay, who I think he's one of those. There's like the JV IDW squad. That's always trying to be part of it, but they weren't there for the photo shoot. So yeah, exactly.

0:15:54 Eiynah: They're like the D-list. I tell

0:15:56 Thomas: Although I, you know, if I were, if it were my fantasy team, if I, if they were in my fantasy IDW league, like I would, I would get Shermer out of there. Cause he's pretty much, let's be real. I mean, he's, he'S about as worthless as it gets on your, on your IDW fantasy league team. And then I would probably, I'd probably have some different ones, assuming the goal is evil. Of course. I'm like, yeah, assuming I'm trying to pick the most obnoxious team, you know, but, but yeah, James Lindsay.

0:15:56 Eiynah: You. Oh, but

0:16:23 Thomas: Oh, well, but he's that.

0:16:17 Eiynah: Then Shermer works. He's a sexual predator. So see,

0:16:27 Thomas: Okay. Good point. I didn't think about that angle. That's a, that's, that's a concern. Is there a stat for that in the fantasy league? I didn't think about THAT. Maybe.

0:16:35 Eiynah: Now you're getting too much into sports references. Says I should Get my husband to come talk to you about this because You're Gonna Lose me with This I'm sure he would Have, but I can't carry it on because I don't know what I'm talking about.

0:16:37 Thomas: Oh okay. Yeah. He, he would have laughed at that. Yeah, Right. Well, but my point about Shermer is that he's just such an an empty vessel. Like he just kind of parrots, you know, and we saw, I saw that years ago when I had him on is like, he was all ready to

0:16:57 Eiynah: Yeah He Agreed With You, and then he went right back to it.

0:16:58 Thomas: Yeah. Exactly. He he's very, um, he's an empty vest, but, uh, but anyway, my favorite of the JV squad incidentally is of course, Gad Saad who, who cannot, who can not handle that. He did not make the varsity. He's still mad. I think Like, he was like tweeting at every single journalist who wrote something about the intellectual dark web. I was like, hey, you know, I'm here, you now, like, if you ever want to talk. But anyway, what was I going to say about James Lindsay? Yeah, he had this a similar thing where, you know, and it's interesting, I don't know, you know, how much discussion we want to have on the topic of abortion.

It's certainly something that I had to learn a lot about just in terms of the philosophy of what, cause I had always been under the impression that it was like just a personhood question, you know, back when I was younger and when I was, uh, you know, college and stuff, I thought it was just like a pretty simple personhood question. And the answer of when the fetus is a person kind of tells you what you need to know.

Uh, I've, I've since learned that that's not really how it works, but like, that seems to be the route that, that they're taking. Like, oh, if you, uh, James Lindsay tweeted, like, I'm blocking anyone who discusses the fetuses, is just a clump of cells, like that's

0:17:00 Eiynah: Right, yeah.

0:17:16 Eiynah: He got so mad Like He's so pathetic, he Publicly Whined about it. Hey, Why Did You Forget Yeah

0:18:19 Thomas: Simplistic thinking and I guess it's like some rhetorical centrism, like, because, like, what do you, what are you doing with, like, do you think abortion should be, you should have access or not, it's a binary question. I guess it's some sort of rhetorcial centrism to still, yeah.

0:18:20 Eiynah: Right Right. And If There Was a problem where people just enjoyed it a lot, then we could discuss these silly concerns that they have, but there really isn't a problem where people are just, hey, let's wait till the third trimester to have this abortion because because it'll be so much better that way. No, there's no such problem. There's no such stance. People are in so much pain anyways when this is happening. It's happening for some medical reason. Why do you want to make their lives even worse?

0:18:34 Thomas: Yeah.

0:19:05 Thomas: You Know, is there anything at all equivalent to this in Canada going on? Is there any sort of war on, is this a similar war on women's rights there, or how does

0:19:14 Eiynah: Well, we've got this premier of our province who's kind of Trumpy, And someone from his staff was found at an anti-abortion rally, which is like a big deal over here, right? And even the conservatives are not opening that discussion at this moment. But it's kind of scary, the Trump-y direction that we're headed in. I mean, you can see the racism happening and more out in the open. Faith Goldie ran for mayor of Toronto, for fuck's sake. I mean she's a 14 words reciting Nazi, or as Peter Boghossian would say, not a Nazi, because not in Nazi Germany.

0:19:30 Thomas: Yeah, Yeah, It Does Seem Like Yeah, Well, She was, yeah, did, was she there in the 30s and 40s? If not, then not enough, uh, according to him, but, but yeah, that's interesting, uh, it's, it's almost like, I worry I hope it won't be like McDonald's or something where, you know, it starts here and then it's every everywhere in the world, it's like people see what Trump, yeah.

0:20:09 Eiynah: Right.

0:20:19 Eiynah: It's definitely having an effect. Like I've seen it change around here, you know, and you can say that it's sort of spreading from the States.

0:20:21 Thomas: Yeah, I mean it kind of of makes sense in an evil way, which is, people see something that, we're like, people are pretty similar everywhere, you know, obviously, um, there's societal differences, there's legal differences between the countries and stuff, but, like, the problem of an attention-grabbing, no-filter, you know, essentially asshole, like, that, that does seem to appeal to a certain number of people everywhere. And, like, I think people around the world were like, wait a minute, we can just be awful, and in this day and age there's no more, there's not as much gatekeeping, so, like, if you're this this awful person, you can gain access to, uh, uh, you know, look at my good friend, uh, Carl Sargon running for office in the UK.

0:20:58 Eiynah: Right. Right. When he comes into the mainstream, you can see how people treat him. Right. And how people defended him or both sides to him, like in the skeptic community, even like some so-called moderate ex-Muslims were like, oh, both these people were bad with in regards to your debate with him. Right. And it pissed me off so much because someone was like, oh, it's like watching Linda Sarsour debate Ken Ham or some bullshit like that. And it's, like, you seriously cannot take a proper stance, like in between what Thomas is saying and what Sargon is saying. And now, of course, that it's all out in the mainstream and the media is all like, oh, this rape tweet guy is, like, getting grilled every day. And of course these people are like dropping him left, right, and center, only because of accountability Pardon

0:21:09 Thomas: Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Are They Good Yeah, well, I, I wasn't sure that they, they were, but I'm glad to hear that. I, yeah.

0:22:06 Eiynah: Well, Not everyone yet, but if it push comes to shove, like it, like Majid did, you know, Majid, who, Majid Nawaz, who just a couple of years ago went on Sargon's show, and people were like pointing him to those tweets of Sargon, and he's like, ha ha, you know, like, why, why are people so triggered, Sargon, you know, I've been on Fox News and it hasn't triggered that many people. And now he's like acting as if nobody ever told him about Sargon, he's publicly denouncing him and stuff, it's like such an act and

0:22:13 Thomas: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

0:22:41 Thomas: Well, that's good to hear. I am really worried. I mean, all I see, but it's because of probably the people I follow, you know, all I see every day is Sargon getting hit by another fish or like a milkshake or something, you know, like that's pretty much, oh, good, good. I mean, yeah, I'm all for creative methods. You know, change it up. Different food slash feces every day. Um, but, but I, I, there's part of me that is actually really worried that just giving him just all the air time he's getting is going to have some effect of, yes, obviously, whatever percentage it is, 90, hopefully higher, realize, like, oh, this guy's awful, but if you get the more eyeballs he gets, the more chances at that, you know, five percent, one percent, point whatever

0:22:56 Eiynah: Apparently like horse dung or something.

0:23:35 Eiynah: Yeah,

0:23:35 Thomas: It is, to kind of coalesce around him. And part of me is worried about that. I don't think he's going to win the election or anything, but maybe he will.

0:23:42 Eiynah: No, He's Tanked the party, yeah.

0:23:47 Thomas: There really is a weight on the polling where you're like, who's dragging this entire thing down?

0:23:54 Eiynah: It's these YouTube idiots, uh, it's

0:23:57 Thomas: Yeah. But earlier we were talking about centrism, and I do think, I think I was guilty of this somewhat, you know, 10 years ago. I think the rationality TM and the skeptic TM and that kind of mindset does drive toward centrism. I think there's a, I want to get your thoughts on this.

0:24:19 Eiynah: So Was I By The Way, I mean, I fully acknowledge that, but that's a different political, political landscape also, right? To be a centrist in Obama times, it doesn't sound as horrendously nauseating to me.

0:24:20 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, it's like there was a time When, if it felt like liberal people were in control of things, you know, like it felt like that.

0:24:37 Eiynah: Yeah. And you're like, come on guys, you can do a little bit better than this.

0:24:46 Thomas: Yeah. And I, yeah. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that, with, okay, we, if we have control, let's, let's argue back and forth about maybe the best policy or maybe something that I disagree with the mainstream left on or whatever. I get that. But like, as you're saying, you got to adjust to the times. Centrism isn't a real thing. It's only going to be determined by two other extremes that are moving. So it's not really a coherent position, but it does. I do feel like among skeptics, it's this comfortable feeling like, oh, I'm smarter than both of these sides that I hear. Is that something you've come across a lot?

0:24:58 Eiynah: Definitely.

0:25:28 Eiynah: And I've actually come across the like ultra centrist that that also denounces centrists, right?

0:25:37 Thomas: Yeah, you got to find a way to get everybody in there. You

0:25:40 Eiynah: And then there's the fans of the IDW that sort of will treat them as a group and say they're happy to criticize them. So they're not, you know, they're like the ultimate ascended centrist where they're, like, we will criticize the IDU, but then don't let those lefties actually criticize Sam Harris us because then it gets all tribal, no, no, no, we're not tribal, actually, you see, we criticize the IDW.

0:25:54 Thomas: Wow, move.

0:26:07 Thomas: It's, it's like people are really really uncomfortable with any sort of, um, I don't know, with, with realizing that in, at least in the U S I can't speak for any other country, obviously, but in the US there's a tangible political situation, which is two parties and one is completely insane. And the other is more or less trying to do the right thing a lot of the time. And that's as simple as that. Like people are uncomfortable with With any sort of allegiance, like they think that's like they're not, I don't know, that they're selling out or they're Not, I Don't Know What It Is,

0:26:40 Eiynah: Yeah, it's this, uh, idea that if you take one side over the other, you're somehow, I don't know, too ideological, too biased. Or, but I mean, if one side is completely insane, then I don't see the the problem with that, like, choosing the other side. Yeah.

0:26:48 Thomas: Yeah, Yeah. You know, That's Another Thing That I'm Sure You Noticed, Or Actually, I Shouldn't Even Say That, I Think I Noticed It Because You Were Posting About This Sam Harris Interview Where He Just Came Out And Said, It Reminded Me Of That, Gosh, What Was That Trump Investigation, I think it might have been Trump Jr. where Trump just like Trump Jr just tweeted out that, oh, yeah, I had this meeting or whatever. I'm pretty sure that's what it was. And the journalist was like, he just said it like I was I've been I've been working on this story for a year and a half. And he just he just tweeted it. It was like that with Sam Harris in that interview that I believe I got from you. I think I think you were you're going through it and doing some great threads on it. Was going to get to it. He just said, oh, I don't have any identity that relates to any political question.

0:27:26 Eiynah: Yeah, Which,

0:27:45 Thomas: And you're like, wait.

0:27:43 Eiynah: Yes, Something He brings up a lot, yes.

0:27:47 Thomas: Yeah, I thought that was supposed to be the quiet part. I thought we're actually saying that. Okay, I bet you were just supposed to Be strongly implying it, you know, like with different identity politics language, like, oh bad identity politics. But I didn't know we're to the point where you just say it. You just say, oh no, I have no identity. All you people yeah you people you're the ones with the identity I

0:28:06 Eiynah: So, This was an interview, so I think, think it was a Vox podcast, um, and I was just reading the Vox, uh, transcriber of it rather than listening to it, so then, I was making a thread about it, and he actually brought this up in his Ezra Klein interview too, there was a part where Ezra was like, but you know, you're, you're being tribal too, you know? And he's like, no, I'm not. And he was like, well, how do you know, he's like, I would know if I was being tribal.

0:28:21 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:28:41 Eiynah: And so he does this a lot. And it, it amazes me that he is so not, not self-aware, but

0:28:50 Thomas: It, it really does and I had somebody tweet, I can't remember what what interview it was, but it was something where I was having some sort of debate on a podcast, you know, and someone, someone tweeted at both of whoever it was. You know, uh, and me and it was like, good discussion. But I, I just think that both of them were, motivated by ideology and it's this idea that like ideology in itself is a thing, which it's not, but like that, that's the the problem and people can transcend ideology or something. And I think it's this, I think it is the extreme form of rationality, right?

0:29:27 Eiynah: Even the attempt to transcend an ideology is An ideology. Ideology.

0:29:32 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. Well, and if you're going to define, I guess maybe you could define ideology in a way that would make sense. But like, if we talk about abortion, if one side's ideology is that there should be access to abortion And the other side is no access to abortion. Sure. I'm ideologically on the other side. I don't, you know, like what, what harm is there?

0:29:32 Eiynah: What's The problem with that. I don't know, there's just this desire to, you know, it reminds me of that, uh, I don't know, that galaxy brain meme, like, just to be that super ascended brain floating in the universe. Yeah.

0:30:05 Thomas: Yeah. You know, the, uh, what's her name? Claire Lehman or something. The Quillette. Yeah, she, she said a similar thing recently where she said that, uh... one of her tweets was about, oh, well, I'm not just regurgitating prepackaged beliefs. And I I was thinking about it and I was like, well, you are, it's just a slightly different combination. You know, you really can't, it goes all directions. Like if you think you're a genius because you're kind of a centrist, so like you have some right wing views and some left wing views, doesn't that just mean you picked, yeah, but doesn't, that just means you picked a slightly, different combination of prepackaged views. You know? Like everything's a prepackage view.

0:30:15 Eiynah: Yeah, the Quillette lady, but Don't you dare call the the right wing views right wing. Yep. Right.

0:30:52 Thomas: What do you, yeah. Yeah. So anyway, it's just all along the theme of people, this super hyper skeptic, you know, mindset that you can somehow escape all this, escape identity, and that you can be this blank rational slate and anyone else is bringing something improper to the discussion in their identity.

0:31:12 Eiynah: And Pinker was it Pinker? Yeah, I think Pinker tweeted something like that too, like I think he tweeted about Jerry Coin writing a takedown about someone that was criticizing New Atheists and he made sure to put in, thank you for this dispassionate takedow. And it's like, if you have to keep telling everyone how dispassioned and objective, objective and unbiased, you guys are you really aren't

0:31:21 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah? Ooh, it It's almost like they're virtue signaling their rationality, you might say. So I want to ask you about some stuff that, you know, I know you've had some conversations about and big, big news topics. Obviously, there's the awful terror attack in New Zealand. And there are a couple of things I just really wanted to get your opinion on, because they're interesting issues that I don't quite know that I have the right answers to myself, which which is things like, know, I, I love that prime minister. Uh, what's her name? Jacinda.

0:31:37 Eiynah: Yeah Jacinda Ardern, right.

0:32:08 Thomas: Yes. Jacinda Ardern. She strikes me as, you Know, amazing, compassionate, empathetic, and all these things I love. But what did you think about her wearing the hijab to kind of in solidarity with the Muslim community? I'm just curious for your thoughts.

0:32:23 Eiynah: Right. So I actually did an episode on the christ church uh, shooting with two YouTubers from New Zealand, and so we talked about that a bit, and I what they explained is that, you know, it, it became this solidarity move because, uh, people were afraid to walk their kids to school and stuff like that. And people started to wear it in small neighborhoods and things like that, um, just to, I guess there's strength in numbers. And so the hijab is like a, it's a very nuanced thing.

0:32:45 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah.

0:32:59 Eiynah: It's, and my, my position on it evolves according to the times, obviously the more more persecuted visibly Muslim are, the more careful I think even critics of the hijab should be. So it's not as simple as any sort of sighting of it out in the wild, or any instance of someone wearing it that's not Muslim should be like, straight up, oh, that's bullshit. And I think you have to let it, when you see that the motivation is just to solidarity with people who were just shot in a mosque with children. You know what I mean? Like, of course, that doesn't mean that all of a sudden you're like pro-hijab and pro-sharia and pro putting kids in modesty garb. But there has to be a more nuanced take on it, right? Right. Like people were mourning. And I guess from her position of power, it sends a strong signal to anti-Muslim people in the country that there's no place for that. So while I cringe at wearing hijabs in solidarity, I think that there are times when one can not be like a pedant about it. That makes sense.

0:33:12 Thomas: Yeah, yeah yeah yeah I agree, I, I think I land probably in the same place, um, which, okay good, I'm glad, glad to hear that, but, but I was, I think ultimately I kind of wish she wouldn't do that, just because when you think about this idea of in any way celebrating or endorsing, like you say, modesty garb that, that is oftentimes enforced on, on women.

0:34:41 Thomas: So it's, it is, that's pretty uncomfortable, but at the same time, I do think it's very important to, as you're saying, look at the context and look at specific motivations of what's happening. Like, obviously she wasn't trying to reinforce the misogyny involved in making women cover their heads or, you know, of like, obviously. So like, it's one thing to be like, Hey, maybe don't do that. But, but that's, of course, since it's the internet, that's never what it is. You know, it'S like, it's like, ah, she really lost. Yeah.

0:34:17 Eiynah: Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hm. Yeah, someone Someone in the rational atheist skeptic genius brain community tweeted something like, "You know, accept Sharia, New Zealand," or something, with a picture of her. It was just the dumbest thing. You know, like, now that she's worn this, somehow it's like some theocracy, Islamic theocracy now, and these are the people that say SJWs or so are like too hyperbolic or whatever ever, so

0:35:22 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:35:36 Thomas: But I wonder, like, is there another, I don't know, any sort of symbolic thing she could have done that would have accomplished the same thing without the baggage? Do you think?

0:35:45 Eiynah: I struggle with this a bit too, obviously being a woman that has been in state enforced, you know, modesty garb, and it kind of brings back traumatic memories for me, and I really don't like it. But at the same time, I understand the plurality of meanings that it holds, right? It's, it's in the West starting to take on a meaning of defiance and identity, uh, defiance against anti-Muslim bigots who target women for being visibly Muslim. So while I guess it does symbolize sexism and misogyny and forcing many, many women in the Middle East to wear this, in the West, um, considering the different power structures, it's starting to symbolize something else as well.

0:36:45 Thomas: It's interesting. I wonder, I know it's a big topic, but I wonder if I could get your opinion in general, and whatever specific areas you want to go into, of what do you think a healthy liberal orientation toward Islam is? You know, and do you think that we're there in the, in the wider liberal community? You know, is it, because, because in some ways there's so many contradictions?

0:37:10 Thomas: Yeah. Well, go ahead. Just feel free to to launch into anything you want there.

0:37:09 Eiynah: We're not there, um, Well, okay, so I would say that it would, a healthy environment would mean that we could criticize it without fearing being hijacked by bigots, and we can't. So the environment is just not healthy at all, and Muslims being persecuted, targeted, shot, makes it, you know, harder and harder to even put forth legit criticism.

0:37:29 Thomas: Yeah.

0:37:43 Thomas: Yeah, it's hard because a lot of times, especially when, you know, I'm so excited about a lot of the Muslims that are now in Congress. Well, I say a lot, there's like two, but but then it's, it's tough because I hear an interview, um, Talib, I think, and you start hearing certain cultural things that they say, and you're like, oh my god, never mind, that's awful. But like, I'm still like, I'M STILL ON HER SIDE, and it was. Yeah.

0:37:53 Eiynah: Yeah. Yeah. Right.

0:38:10 Eiynah: But you don't want to pile on to all the Shapiro trolls, right?

0:38:12 Thomas: Exactly, and and I think It's also her parents too, are a big part, like, I don't think it's her so much, but she talked about her parents, like, didn't let her do anything, you know, she, she was an American, she, they moved to America and yet she wasn't allowed to go out, do it, like, all really strict ownership over her because she was, you mean, at the time I guess, still a child, but, you know, a teenager, you know, going into her adult years, restrictions that wouldn't have been on her male siblings. And it's like, I really, I know it's, it's a tough situation because it's her parents or whatever, but it's hard to to think that's any sort of liberal stance, you know, and I wish I would have.

0:38:14 Eiynah: Yeah.

0:38:55 Eiynah: It's not. Yeah.

0:38:56 Thomas: Yeah, I wish I would've heard or mentioned that, but I don't know. So it's things like that where, you know, she's obviously on the left, but, do, is there, are you worried about, you know, is there anything to the sort of, I guess, republican theory that, or, or maybe it's more of an atheism thing, where the, sorry, the Democrats are too soft on Islam in certain ways?

0:39:19 Eiynah: In certain ways, perhaps. But I mean, in an environment like this, how are you supposed to get around that? Right? It's like, if I was in Pakistan, I wouldn't exactly be joining the status quo and shitting on the small Christian minority As much as I dislike Christianity, you know, so it wouldn't change my views on Christianity. I still think it's ridiculous and bigoted, and but I'm not going to join in the chorus of absolute bigots when there's Christians being burned, and, you, you know, harassed and attacked and bombed in their churches, it

0:39:26 Thomas: Hmm.

0:39:41 Thomas: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, good point, it's like, Mm, Hmm. Yeah, it really is context dependent. And I guess

0:40:13 Eiynah: Really is right

0:40:13 Thomas: That's the problem is that, you know, given that the Internet connects most everybody in some ways and a video of some rant anywhere, you don't maybe maybe it's some some video from a country where Christians are the persecuted minority that is seen everywhere. And it's like, you can't really have a message for everybody that works in all places at all times, I guess, is the answer.

0:40:39 Eiynah: Exactly, and I've criticized this before, so there are, like, some ex-Muslims that will take videos from a Muslim majority country and spread it to their far right western audience, right? So there was one who took, like, a Muslim from Iran who's obviously angry about the persecution that he faces at the hands of Muslim bigots, that's all he has to worry about, and in his anger he's burning pages of the Quran, which is like, you know, an act of bravery, and the guy would likely be in danger, so kudos to him for taking on the, the status quo that way, you know, and risking so much. But when you are showing this as a noble act in the West, where Muslims are being shot up in mosques, you may be encouraging people to burn Qurans and attack mosques and things like that. What, it is just not the same over here, you know what I mean, dear.

0:41:14 Thomas: Yeah.

0:41:46 Thomas: Yeah, I do. You know, and one thing I wanted to talk to you about, because that. Yeah. I recently spoke with Armin and Ali Rizvi on their show, but they wasn't really, so like, I'd only been talking to Ali Rizvi who, you know, like I, I think I'm pretty in line with on most things. Um, well, I, maybe I don't know everything he said, but, uh, and then there, it was weird because, uh Armin was, he had a bad connection. So we didn't really end up like, he kind of timed out of the discussion. It was a bizarre set of circumstances. But anyway, you think, because obviously Armin has said some really sounding things, you know, like comparing Islam and Nazism.

0:42:04 Eiynah: Don't know, I don'T know if you are but yes, because he's transferred his extremism like he was, I, I don't know, like an Islamic extremist, now he's a an ex-Muslim extremist, you know, he compares, um, Judaism to Nazism, he says Nazism is worse than Judaism. He says more people have been tortured by the Jewish doctrine and circumcision than they have been by Nazis, and just ridiculous shit like that. He goes on Breitbart to say Islam doesn't belong on the planet. This is dangerous, dangerous shit, you know?

0:42:27 Thomas: Mm hmm. Mm hmm, yeah, that's a weird thing to say. Yeah, but it's another, it's the argument that he started to make before we could really finish it is that it's he's coming from a context in which, you know, Islam in some of these places is really bad, like they are killing people who speak out against it, they aren't you know, right?

0:43:16 Eiynah: Right. So he should fight those bigots if he wants to in that context. What he's doing is taking something from that context and and getting cheered on by Breitbart over here.

0:43:21 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, so it's a question of trying, doing your best to tailor a message responsibly, I guess, like to kind of

0:43:35 Eiynah: It's not an accident, though, Thomas. This is a grift. It's Not That He Doesn't Know What He's Doing.

0:43:36 Thomas: Oh, no, yeah, well, I don't, I, I can't, I, I don't know enough about him, but yeah.

0:43:43 Eiynah: This is where he gets his attention. And it's unfortunate that the more, you know, quote-unquote moderate-seeming ex-Muslims actually stay silent on this. They don't call the more horrible people amongst them out, or they actually vocally support them. So it's unfortunate what's happened to the ex-Muslim movement, yeah.

0:44:07 Thomas: I guess part of what gives me pause is there are places where the influence of Islam is horrendous, like, and and is violent, and is restrictive, and is all these things, you know, so it's, it's, I guess it's just difficult to try to be on all sides of this in a responsible way.

0:44:23 Eiynah: Firstly, you know, there's many ways that Islam is practiced, right? So the way that it's done in Saudi Arabia is completely different from another country, you know what I mean, so it's not just Islam as a whole, there's many different, like, you know, Sufi Islam is different from, um, Wahhabi Islam, very, very different, and you'll find many Sufi Muslims that are tolerant and progressive and into music and, you know, maybe some woo-woo spirituality, but whatever, you'll fine Wahhabis that are very, like, literalist, fundamentalist, angry, and wanting to control others. So I find that, um, the, I was saying that the atheist scene, um, actually hasn't actually made a mess of things by, by spreading this, this un-nuanced, um, talking point, right? Like it's just, and, and they haven't really safeguarded from bigots hijacking their talking point, from far riders hijacking their talking points. In fact, even though they may verbally say that we shouldn't let the far right hijack our anti-Islam talking points, they have, at every step of the way, signal boosted them, you know, um, defended them, quit Patreon because of them, so

0:44:23 Thomas: Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, had them on their podcasts and said, oh, we may disagree about some stuff

0:45:52 Eiynah: Have them on their podcast, exactly, the ex-Muslims, the Sam Harris boosts, you know, people like Yasmin Muhammad, have justified hate crimes against Muslims, have, uh, talked about how, how not all Nazis are extremists, you know, it's just ridiculous. It's terrifying. And when they want Muslims and lefties to call out the bad actors amongst themselves, it's like they're really not willing to hold themselves up to the same standard, you know?

0:45:54 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, do you, so I guess part of the, I think the, the lack of nuance in the in the new atheist position is the sense of like the inevitability of Islam being extremist, and so what's your sense of, is there any difference between how Christianity can be watered down, you know, because I'm sure, you know, that I know tons of people who are, oh yeah, I'm a Christian, but they almost affects their beliefs that none, not at all. You know, like, is there that same ability? Uh, and does that happen with the same frequency or not with Islam? What are your thoughts on that?

0:46:55 Eiynah: Yeah, of course. I mean, I'm surrounded by Muslims like that, you you know, they, it doesn't make sense. Obviously the Muslims are not robots that, uh, follow the, their scripture literally every step of the way, every sentence, just like Christians, they cherry pick. And, you know,, if you try to, if it consistently, it doesn't work. Right. How can you be like, I don't know, gay and part of a homophobic religion. It doesn't make sense to me, but people make it work. People reinterpret or whatever. So while I have my own issues with the hypocrisy and things like that in progressive theists, I feel like right now is not the time to focus on those issues.

0:47:07 Thomas: Oh Yeah.

0:47:50 Eiynah: But yeah, all the time, like I did an episode about Ramadan and it's one of the most hypocritical times. If you're a Muslim, you know this, right? Right? Like people have to, I don't know, start being more pure or whatever for the month. So they, there's people that give up TV. There's some people that gave up swearing. There are some people that, um, give up sex, even though you're not supposed to have sex before marriage. So some people will like, I dunno, just have anal during Ramadan or something. There is people that will, um, gave up alcohol, but then there's people that, uh, will break fast with beer or a joint even though you're not supposed to consume those things at all.

There's people that, um, so when I was in Pakistan there was a person that used to like drink with me in Ramadan and you know there's a bunch of a bunch of friends that we used to drink in Ramada and everyone knows that you stock up on booze beforehand because the bootleggers, they stop, stop selling for the month of Ramadan. So, um, just like any other day I was like, hey, you want to come over this Friday, we're gonna have people over for drinks. And this person was like, no,

0:47:59 Thomas: Oh yeah, yeah, Yeah.

0:49:09 Eiynah: My goodness, it's the 27th of Ramadan, like, how, like, how awful of you, it's a holy night. And I'm so taken aback, of, like, like, what, you were drinking with me last week in Ramadan and all of a sudden it's like, exactly,

0:49:22 Thomas: So it's like everybody has their own, I guess, limits of like what it means to, to, I guess, be Muslim and be making some sort of sacrifice for Ramadan, maybe? It's like Lent.

0:49:35 Eiynah: And it's, so, was saying that people draw their lines at different places and none of it really fits with what the religion commands, you know. There, um, I was with a relative at some point, uh, and he was, was really drunk, we were leaving a party and we stopped off at a pizza place and, uh, he asked for halal pepperoni in his drunken state, right? And the guy was like, no, I don't have halal pepperoni. And he launched, and she's, what the hell, man, like, why do you have halol pepper, I'm like, look at yourself, idiot, you're stumbling, you're drunk, you're not supposed to be drinking the, the first, so what are you doing asking for halal pepperoni, right? Yeah.

0:50:18 Thomas: Yeah. So is it, I mean, is the main problem just like when it's so wrapped up in government and the state, then it just becomes too, I don't know, too extreme in a lot of ways? Is it, do you think the environment of, you know, Canada or the U.S. where Muslims aren't obviously in any control over government, you now, because Christians are, is that the key, is just a secular government, yeah, mm-hmm, right,

0:50:40 Eiynah: Well, yeah, I mean, I'm a secularist, right, so I think giving religion state power is absolutely dangerous, keep that stuff private and, uh, don't insert it into laws and everyone will be much happier, I think,

0:50:57 Thomas: Yeah, think it's the, it's the right wing slash somewhat new atheist theory that, like, but all Muslims are just lying and waiting, like they all want sharia law, and whatever that means, it's just once they get enough power, once enough of them move here or something, then it'll be sharia because yeah, yeah,

0:51:14 Eiynah: And then it gets into replacement theory and anti-immigration, and all of which Sam Harris has participated in, by the way, and doesn't denounce to this day. And it, you know, what really pisses me off is that I kind of these people a benefit of the doubt. I kind of bought into some of it, and it just, it makes me angry because now I feel like I've left another cult in a way, even though I wasn't like extremely dogmatic, even in my New Atheism or Sam Harris fandom or whatever, I still challenged him and was happy to criticize him when it was fair criticism. But I still feel like, how did they do that to me? You know, how did I tolerate so much bullshit?

0:52:01 Eiynah: You Know, I was listening to my old parts of my Sam Harris interview again, and it just Oh, my gosh, I want to kick 2016 Eiynah, even though I still think I did, did a pretty good job challenging him, and if I wasn't like a friendly interviewer, it would not have been exactly, and I certainly would have ended the interview a lot sooner, before I got him to say so many things, you know, that tell on himself, right?

0:52:09 Thomas: Yeah, then he would he never, ever would have come on yeah, yeah, yeah, it's kind of a catch-22, I mean, if you, if you obviously go guns a-blazing with people like I did with Sargon, you know, like, obviously I wasn't going to have any nuanced conversation with Sargan, but Sam Harris isn't Sargon, like, you know, he, he yeah, um, and and yeah, there is a question of, it's a question, what you are trying to accomplish, you know, if you're trying to show people that, you know, like, this person is horrible and everything they say is horrible, which I was trying to do with Sargon, that's one thing. If you're trying to, like, maybe, but that's not going to convince, you know, that'snot going toconvince anybody, that's not goingto convince Carl to change his views, whereas maybe a softer approach might convince Sam harrison an interview of something, I don't know, it seemed like it seemedlike he was affected by that interview somewhat, but then I think long since maybe

0:52:44 Eiynah: Right, no, Sam Harris also polishes and hones his viewpoints to be more palatable oh,

0:53:21 Thomas: Got over it.

0:53:21 Eiynah: He went right back to it right, like the Schirmer thing, and This, this is the thing, right? That was my like, last one of my last ditch efforts as a fan, hoping that he would do the right thing, hoping that he would recognize his inconsistencies and some of the people that he's been supporting and propping up and promoting. And, you know, maybe if I'm friendly and agreeable and nice, and just still present this stuff to him, he'll, he's a rational guy, right, he's gonna see, like, oh, yeah, no, that's all bad, I wasn't trying to to do that, oh, I don't want to actually be an anti-Muslim bigot. And so that was my hope, like, I've always wanted to think the best of him, but even I have been so put off by him now, like I see through it and I'm like, I was such an idiot, uh, sure.

0:53:22 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, you don't have to throw everything out. I mean he's made a lot of interesting points over the years about varied topics, you know, he's been interesting on stuff.

0:54:19 Eiynah: Sure, like, I, I like his take on fireplaces, Uh, you know, he had a great essay on fire places I I even like his religious criticisms when they don't get into the bigoted, anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim kind of stuff, you know, like where he's like quoting Arabia conspiracy books and fear-mongering about birth rates and stuff. Like, I like his takes on even progressive theists, you know, being intellectually dishonest. Like, I I totally understand that and get that, but I just, I gave him the benefit of doubt for too long, hoping that he would realize or change or whatever. I don't know. I always wanted to have the most charitable interpretation of what he

0:54:19 Thomas: Yeah and

0:55:07 Eiynah: Said. But now when I look back at it, like, ah, you know, so many of his critics were right. And I'm like, uh,

0:55:12 Thomas: We're coming up on time here. And of course, especially since, you know, you've got a four month old, I don't want to keep you too long, but I did want to ask you one thing. This is something I've seen you mention this person or quote this person. Who in the world is this Imam of peace? Do you know who this is? Who is this? I see him from time to time. I'm like, what is this right?

0:55:28 Eiynah: Yeah. Okay. Okay, so he's an alt-right imam that hangs out with white nationalists on their podcasts and serves their agendas.

0:55:39 Thomas: Wait, really? How can you be an alt-right Imam?

0:55:43 Eiynah: Right, so if he's not actually an imam, I mean, he wears a costume with a big hat.

0:55:50 Thomas: Oh, is it a fake character or is it?

0:55:54 Eiynah: You know, people have speculated that he's like a Borat type of character. He's not a Sacha Baron Cohen character, I don't think, unless, I do not know, he is going to reveal to us soon, but he very well could be. It's such a stupid character, it might as well, like, can you think of anything dumber than an anti-Muslim imam who's gonna fall for that, guess who fell for that yes Sam Harris, why can't more imams be like this, or Ricky Gervais, I mean, like, oh, the guy is, you just have to watch him for a few minutes to know he's full of absolute shit, he does nothing but, you know, promote far-right actors, he supported Faith Goldie, I believe, um, and uh, he went on a white nationalist podcast, he

0:55:57 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:56:15 Thomas: Is that what it it is? Well, it seems like people do, right? Yeah.

0:56:47 Eiynah: He's done so many things

0:56:48 Thomas: Is he like the diamond and silk of Islam? Is that what?

0:56:49 Eiynah: Yes yes There's so many of those, eh? Like I saw on Reddit once, like, ex-Muslims being referred to as, you know, well, some ex-Muslims being referred to as Diamond and Silk ex-Muslims, and that kind of really hit home for me, like, I was, like, what am am I doing associating with people like that, like, I don't want to be used for that, I don't want to be seen as that.

0:56:52 Thomas: Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's tough, the power of the grift. The power of the grif. The pull.

0:57:15 Eiynah: And but power of the grift, he's an Australian Iraqi, I believe, and he has a lot of unhinged positions, like he's called for same day hangings of people, um, I think

0:57:29 Thomas: Yeah enough of the waiting period. Let's go same day. I'm tired of, tired tired of waiting. I don't know what I'm saying.

0:57:30 Eiynah: Yes um He wants surveillance of all

0:57:38 Thomas: What?

0:57:38 Eiynah: Mosques, just really extreme, extreme positions.

0:57:43 Thomas: Okay, so it's a grift. It's either a character or a grif- extreme grift, I just wasn't sure, I- I didn't- I hadn't looked that much into it, but I see it from time to time, I was like, this seems incomprehensible, but I also had seen certain people take him seriously, so I was, like, what is this? But I'm glad that, uh, okay.

0:57:56 Eiynah: Anyone you see taking him seriously, that's a red flag because no one should be taking him seriously. His gift is so obvious.

0:58:05 Thomas: Okay, thanks for clearing that up, I appreciate it, and of course, Eiynah, thanks so much for coming on, Uh, I, it's been too long since we've talked and, uh, I'm glad you had some time to come on and, of You are, of course at NiceMangos on Twitter and, um, your show is called Polite Conversations. Yeah. Keep up the good work. Have you had to slow down at all with the... with the baby?

0:58:26 Eiynah: I have, yeah, You know, breastfeeding and podcast editing and podcast talking just it's not as easy as it sounds he he woke up in my last um he woke up like he he used to be like you know a newborn that sleeps through everything and now it's changing so He woke up in my last panel episode and he was all very chatty and opinionated and he's in there there was some baby sounds I just couldn't remove so yeah he's There they're sucking on his hands and yeah.

0:58:28 Thomas: Hmm. This is true. This is true, especially Yeah. Yeah, gosh, You know, it's a random thing. Sorry, more kids. Sorry to all the anti-kid people, but I'm sorry. I can't help it. The weird, another weird thing about, you know, having the newborn and realizing how old my one and a half year old was or whatever is the, the way they cry. Like once I heard the newborn cry and I was like oh yeah Phoebe doesn't cry there's a they start to change their cry like it's a at first obviously it's the cry of I have no freaking idea what's happening when like just whatever something right you know and then you realize like oh they're starting to figure out Phoebe's long ago probably started figuring out like crying but with a knowledge of what it is and like it's it's just weird it's one of those snap realizations I had like oh I know exactly he was crying it's completely different you know it's funny

0:59:17 Eiynah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's different cries for different things, but yeah. Anyway, thank you so much, Thomas, for having me on. We could talk about kids all day, but

0:59:44 Thomas: Yeah yeah ah I love it thank you for coming on uh yes I really could I love kids and and uh I'm so happy for you I'm glad everything's going well

0:59:53 Eiynah: All right. You too. Good luck with two and yeah, we'll exchange parent stories from time to time. All right. Take care.

1:00:00 Thomas: Definitely Thanks again to Eiynah, and just a little follow-up thought here, there's, I saw recently there's been quite a bit of controversy in the UK over a lot of Muslim parents are protesting kind of LGBTQ friendly education or positive education in the schools, and it's this, you know, of wedge issue explosion kind of thing, because it's being used by, I don't know, anti-Muslim people, anti-immigration people, to show like, oh, they they don't, uh, they have these backwards views, and that kind of thing's being leveraged, I think, in probably an unfair, to an unfair extent there, uh, and but it's also another one of those issues where there is very legitimate, uh, legitimate criticism to be, be had there, to be made there.

1:01:22 Thomas: And so it's like, how do we make that criticism in a way that doesn't feed anti-Muslim bigots? Because this isn't happening in the US. I think it would be different if it is here. But if this is being used by US conservatives to bash Muslims, I mean, they don't have a leg to stand on here.

1:01:45 Thomas: Conservatives in the U.S. were taken, and kicking and screaming into the 21st century by the Supreme Court. You know, they still aren't all that pro-gay marriage, and they're certainly not pro- gay. Oftentimes, they're certaintly, certainly not protrans most of the time. So, like, they don't have a leg to stand on. But it is a legitimate problem to talk about. How do we treat this?

This could be because I, for one, am not going to throw any of, you know, my gay friends, my trans friends, my whoever it is under the bus for the sake of like Not being mean to someone's religion, so it's not about that, we need to treat that just as we would treat Christians who were protesting the same thing in the U.S., but doing so with the knowledge and the mindset that it is a different situation when you're a persecuted minority versus when you are the dominant majority in a country like the U.S. currently, so, and I think Ines spoke to that as well. It's about, you tailoring your criticism, your speech, your YouTube video, whatever it is, trying to make sure it's directed at a specific audience, just as...

I think it's a great analogy to say, if you or I are in a country where Christians are literally the persecuted minority, and there are plenty of places where that's true, I mean, Christians are in danger in certain places, yes, I disagree with Christianity, but I wouldn't be going out of my way to bash Christians in those places because it's just a different scenario.

1:03:24 Thomas: And I think that's the conundrum, which is global communication, the internet, all that stuff, social media makes this available everywhere, but doing our best to make sure that we are reacting to the right context and that we're keeping our criticism directed in the right context. So, very interesting stuff there.

I think that's a difficult situation, situation, uh, if anybody out there knows more about that, the the protests that are happening, or you know, has an idea for a guest or anything to interview about that, I'd be, uh, more than happy, I'd be very interested in in talking about that issue, um, but it's just something that I that I saw, so I wanted to bring up, but thank you so much for listening. Thanks again to Eiynah.

Hey, if you like the show, please consider a pledging on patreon.com/seriouspod, that's how you make it continue, continue if you can't do that, that's a okay, I understand, the next best thing to do is to share this podcast when you, uh, feel so inclined, if you enjoy it, if you think people get something out of it, that's another good way to do it, or do both, you know, best of both worlds. Okay, thank you so much for listening, and I will see you next week.