SIO85: PZ Myers

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only. This is Episode 85. I'm Thomas Smith, your host, for this week's interview for this week's interview I'm bringing you a nice long one with PZ Myers. We talk about so much, we talk about atheism plus, we talked about kind of, I wanted to get his view of the movement, how it went from from his angle because we haven't actually spoken before, I know a little bit about it but definitely not the whole story and I'm sure a lot of people listening don't know the whole and if you don't, PZ, he is of course a biologist, he has been very involved in in the atheist movement from the beginning from as he'll describe and he writes his blog Pharyngula and he also run the Free Thought Blogs network. He's someone I'm very glad to finally have spoken to. I think you'll enjoy the interview. So without further ado, here we go.

0:01:23 Thomas: I'm joined right now by PZ Myers. PZ, it is so good to talk to you for the first time. We've never spoken or met, but I feel like, I feel, like, now's a good time.

0:01:33 PZ: Yeah, well, there's... there's billions of people I have not spoken to or met so it's

0:01:37 Thomas: That's true. I'm just one of those billions.

0:01:38 PZ: Yeah, we're just reducing that number by one

0:01:43 Thomas: I am so excited to talk you because, you know, I followed you for a long time and I think that there's a lot, from my perspective anyway, there's, there is a progression I've definitely gone through. Having gone through this Mythicist Milwaukee thing, I think I see a little better where you've been coming from for years.

0:02:01 Thomas: So I was really curious. I had the idea because I met somebody at this Mythicism Milwaukee event who came up to me and said, hey, I know nothing about the atheist movement. Like I literally have just, this is my first thing. And I was like, like, oh my gosh, this is the first atheist thing you've been to? Well, that's kind of why I wanted to go to that thing, just in case of this person. But anyway, so I realized there are so many people because it's been a few years now since this whole new atheism thing blew up. And it's been a long time. And I realized, there's probably a lot of people who don't know this history. And I bet I don't Know a lot Of the history from your perspective. So I was wondering if you could just give us a bit of a, I don't know, you know, a story, like a history of what your progression was from your point of view through the movement.

0:02:52 PZ: Sure, yeah, so shall we start with Percy Shelley and Skip ahead a few centuries

0:02:58 Thomas: Yeah. Okay. Oh yeah. The Bible. Okay, we'll go through that first.

0:03:02 PZ: Yeah, so I've been involved in atheism for a few decades now and I I will openly admit that before about 2001, a certain event happened then, the atheist movement was kind of this quiet, professorial sort of thing where people would argue with one another about the details of the Bible or whatever. And it was actually kind of boring.

0:03:29 PZ: My side of it, as a biologist, I got involved in it largely largely through efforts to counteract creationism, which is one of the more pathological versions of religion out there. So I got involved early on in debating creationists and arguing with them and causing a ruckus over bad policies and education. But for most people, I think that the real start of this new atheist movement would have been 9/11, unfortunately, and it's, it's sort of tainted the movement in some ways. It's a bad way to start an intellectual movement with, uh, as a reaction to a terrorist act. But, uh, yes, Sam Harris started publishing books, uh, Richard Dawkins, Dawkins, know, the usual group of people.

0:04:23 PZ: I think Dawkins was probably the most influential because his book, The God Delusion, really got a lot of people fired up. Was a period of rapid growth in the atheist movement.

0:04:34 Thomas: Right. I ask you, what was your feeling around that? Because I certainly enjoyed those books and I thought they were not as though they were solely focused on 9-11. I think you're right that that was a catalyst, but a lot of it was also the religious right in their response to 9-11, so responding to that.

0:04:43 PZ: Oh, yeah. Right. And George W. Bush and things like that. Yeah. So there were a lot of factors that were at play there. Dawkins' book does not dwell on it at all. So that's there. There were so many other things that drove it. But, you know, I was privy to a couple of meetings where we got together. And a lot of the focus, especially from Sam Harris, was on the threat of Islam. And then Hitchens gets into it and suddenly we got a neoliberal war proponent who was very eloquently proposing that we, that we flatten Iraq and things like this.

So it was kind of a mixed beginning for me, because on the one hand, I love the fact that we were being more public, that there was a lot of aggressive discussion about what should we do about religion. And it was also unfortunate, because a lot that discussion was focused solely on one religion, which was Islam, and there was a barely concealed bit of racial bias there. So that, that was a problem. You know, you might consider that the original sin of the atheist movement in the 21st century is, uh, focusing on Islam a little too much.

0:04:55 Thomas: Mm-hmm.

0:06:14 Thomas: Yeah, well, that's interesting. Okay, yeah, we could, I'm not sure if we should pause the timeline and talk about that or carry on and go back, but what do you think? Because, well

0:06:15 PZ: Uh, Sure, what do you want to say? Yes.

0:06:25 Thomas: I, yeah, I think that there's, and I'm sure, you know, you would acknowledge this too, I I'm, sure there's... there's a lot of nuance there too, to who, you know, like just what constitutes an undue focus on Islam in a time when radical jihadists carried out the worst attack in the nation's history on us. Anyway, the worst terrorist attack. And I think that there was cause to focus on Islam. And certainly, I don't know what's your opinion, just let me know your thoughts, but But it seems to me is there is some difference between the state of Islam and the state of, know, you Christianity and Judaism. And we could talk about that difference, but it seems to me that there is something different about it. I mean, there is more. It's a newer religion. It hasn't had as much time to possibly go through the reform that the other religions have gone through. What do you think about that?

0:06:49 PZ: Yeah.

0:07:23 PZ: Well, I, I agree that there, there is a huge problem there, uh, but too often I think the focus is, um, blaming them for it, that you know, that one of the problems with Islam isn't just that it's a new religion, it said, it's also a religion, uh, that's largely built in countries that were under colonial control for a long time. And they've got the structural deficits that are caused by that kind of oppression. So when we talk about, know, Islam is a problem, which Islam is the problem? And it's usually the Islam that's in the most poor, most benighted, most oppressed regions of the world. And so I find it very hard to separate out, well, is this really a problem with the religion, or is this a problem with the fact that there have been colonial oppressors ripping up their country for a century or two?

0:07:32 Thomas: Hmm. I

0:08:21 PZ: And that gets really hard to sort out. I mean, I will join all the other atheists in condemning the religion of Islam, just as I will condemn the religion of Christianity. It's just that when we start talking about some of these other countries, you know, it starts getting tricky.

0:08:43 Thomas: Totally agree. Agree. And one thing I'll add to that is this undue focus on the language that we use, as though that's going to make some huge difference. There were literally people who voted for Trump over Hillary on the sole issue of, will he use the magic words of radical Islamic terror, as he called it? Will he use those literal magic words versus Hillary? And they voted based on that, which which is so mind-blowing to me that you could be so reductionist and think that that's going to make some sort of difference.

And then, lo and behold, he gets in office and his advisors, who he thought were all these hawks and everything, they were like, well, you shouldn't say that because it turns out there's a reason people haven't been using that language and it's because it doesn't help. It doesn't actually help from a when diplomatic perspective to use that language. So that's another element of it where they're so, I think it backs up your point that they're so fundamentally focused on this one thing to where they can't see all the other problems, you know, and everything else that should be in your moral consideration.

0:08:52 PZ: Right. Right, yes.

0:09:58 PZ: Yeah, and so, you know—I would say that there is a category of person called a radical Islamic terrorist. There's a few of them out there. The problem is when we take this catchy meme, you now, this wonderful catch-all term that the right wing loves so much and apply it to entire nations. That's a bother. I've heard Christopher Hitchens say we ought to be bombing Iraq. And the thing is, when I went to school in the 70s, I knew quite a few people from Iraq. At that time, there were a number of Iraqi and Iranian students who were coming to the United States to attend college.

And I knew quite a few of them. And so when I, when I hear that, I'm just thinking back, oh yeah, remember that guy I knew so well, who was living across the hall from me in the dorm and really liked disco. And then you're talking about, well, we ought to, we got a nuke mall. I think that there's a, there's a personal element for me that that interferes with that kind of dogmatic racist, you know, sweeping of everybody into a category that you have to kill.

0:11:13 Thomas: Just put in there that I don't, find I Hitchens' views on Iraq to to be a little different than that, but I don't know if it's worth arguing about a deceased person's views on the Iraq war. Because I mean, he was coming from the perspective that what Hussein was doing was so bad that it needed to be stopped. I just think we didn't, obviously, we went about it the worst possible way. But yeah, but what you said, also, I was fortunate enough to be able to speak to someone from Syria somewhat recently and have him on my show even. And it is pretty mind blowing when you talk to somebody who, and you put a, you know, a name and a face to a news story, you Know, like what we typically

0:11:20 PZ: Yeah. Well, Yeah, I've I Yeah. Right. Yeah.

0:11:56 PZ: Yeah.

0:11:56 Thomas: As Americans see on CNN is, you Now, a bunch of bombed out buildings and all that. It's like, when you, when You talk to someone, you're like, geez, this, this is, yeah, this is, these are real people and stuff like that. So, know, I, anyway, I think that's a, that's, that'S a good exploration into to that. So, agreed that Islam is different, but it's more the, I suppose, the focus of it above everything else, you're saying.

0:12:06 PZ: Right. Yeah. And you know, there, there are still a lot of, a lot of good thinking atheists who are not knee-jerk anti-Islam people, so it's, it's just that there's a few still and it's usually the more ignorant side. Of atheism that's doing it.

0:12:33 Thomas: There are a lot. Have a few ex- Muslim friends and these people you're talking about who in on Islam above anything else, I mean, they're horrible to them online. If you're an ex-Muslim and you don't say the exact right things about Islam, if you're not critical of it at every turn, and if you start to say, hey, maybe we're being a little racist in how we're, you know, in our discourse on this sometimes, then you get a whole lot of harassment online.

0:12:35 PZ: Yeah. Oh. Yeah, yeah.

0:13:01 PZ: I mean, that, that's, that's another problem with, with the atheist movement in general, is that, as I mentioned, we, we got this surge of activity, and all these people who are, you know, openly joining and and being more vocal about it, and, uh, unfortunately, a lot of those people weren't that bright.

0:13:22 Thomas: That's what I'm finding right now. But yeah, right.

0:13:25 PZ: Yeah. And so you begin to think, you know, there's a reason religion has dogma, and it's because you can't trust everyone to think. And I'm not advocating that atheists need a new dogma. No, I'm just saying it means it's a much more complicated complicated problem to enlist people in the cause of reason than you might think. Because most people aren't operating on the basis of reason. Reason has become this lovely banner that you fly above your head while you do the most ignorant, knee-jerk, stupid, emotional stuff.

0:14:03 Thomas: Yeah, if anything, it compounded the problem because it took people who were ignorant and and then made them think they were being the height of rationality because of being in the movement. And yeah, I'm running into that right now. I'm getting a lot of harassment from all the stuff that happened. And definitely sucks. But one thing that makes it a little easier is that they really are just stupid people. Like it's just, they are not smart. The things they say aren't smart. What would hurt me more would be like a well-reasoned, like, hey, you really really blew it on this point because, you know, he was saying this, you were saying, or something, you know, like if someone actually gave me a thought out critique, I'd be like, ah, you know.

0:14:12 PZ: Yeah. Yeah.

0:14:40 Thomas: What I got that wrong, but when I just said, oh, you, you were dominated, you owned, you just, the same stupid, I can't imagine thinking that that's a worthwhile thing to do. It's it's amazing. It really is

0:14:51 PZ: Yes. And it's pointless. Yeah, I'm seeing the same thing. I've got a few videos on YouTube yeah And it's just come, it's just pouring in, all these people, they, they get into YouTube, the only comment they leave is, you know, something like, oh, I wouldn't even rape you.

0:14:58 Thomas: You probably have that 24 7, yeah.

0:15:11 Thomas: I got I got several of those, that's so clever.

0:15:14 PZ: I'm Sure, you get a few of those. Yeah And and they think they're so clever, and what you discover is that they're just, they're just parroting somebody else, and they think that's a brilliant thing to say, so, so they will go spew that at everyone else they dislike.

0:15:14 Thomas: Yeah It's very clever, yeah. Yep.

0:15:30 PZ: Yeah. So anyway, this, yeah, I can pinpoint a specific time when it became a real problem for me. And that was in 2010 when I spoke at the amazing meeting in London.

0:15:30 Thomas: So Back to the, uh, back to the timeline. Hmm.

0:15:42 Thomas: And Just for anyone who's not familiar, because you were, you were pretty involved with people like Dawkins, right? You I remember seeing Some videos, you were, you know, you, I thought of you as just one of the, another horse person, really. Hmm.

0:15:52 PZ: Oh, yeah. No, I didn't. And I actually posted some things where I said this whole thing about the horseman is terrible because suddenly we've got these four people and everyone thinks they're leaders and they're not. They're just sort of self-appointed memes. And it was kind of annoying. But anyway, yeah, I've had a couple of speaking events with Richard and he quotes me in The God Delusion and things like that. But anyway, the London Amazing Meeting, don't even remember most of what I gave a talk about, but it was probably some generic atheist talk. But in that talk, I had a little aside where, you know, just for a moment, I said, you know, that there's something that really bugs me in the atheist movement. And I coined a term for it. I call it dictionary atheism. Um, and I said there's a lot of people who just think that all atheism means to them, to anyone else, is that you don't believe in God.

0:16:08 Thomas: Hmm.

0:16:59 PZ: It, and that is literally the least interesting aspect of being an atheist. Yeah.

0:17:05 Thomas: Interesting. Yeah.

0:17:07 PZ: We've all, we've already, you know, if you're an atheist, yes, okay, I don't believe in God. But what you want to know, what's interesting, is is why don't you believe in God? And there's a lot of reasons for that, that there are people, for instance, who are rejecting clericism, who consider religious authority to be confining and damaging and dangerous, and they're out there to fight against the church. And then there's people like me who came at it through science, where you get training and thinking scientifically, and suddenly religion is kind of silly. It just does not apply.

0:17:46 Thomas: Interesting.

0:17:46 PZ: There's no evidence. But there's a lot of people who have different views on it. And that's what I find most interesting when I talk to people is, can they explain why they don't believe in God? And then, of course, the other part of it is consequences. If you reject belief in God, what does that lead you to change in your your life? Why are you now doing something because of this atheism? And a lot of people oppose that too. And so another comment I frequently get is people who insist, no, the only possible definition for atheism, the only one that applies to the atheism movement is that you don't believe in God. And fine is a definition of atheism. Yeah.

0:18:31 PZ: Or as why, it's, what, what the meaning of the word is, that's fine, uh but I kind of put some thought into why I'm an atheist, and I kindof expect other people to do so too, and also to recognize that if you're abandoning a belief in a supreme being being who's guiding your life, it should change your perspective on how the universe works. Yeah.

0:18:56 Thomas: Yeah. I'm trying to make sure I'm following exactly the nuance of what you're saying. Are you, because I hear that most like, oh, it all it means is you don't believe in God. And it's true. Like that is essentially, like you said, the dictionary definition of it. But are, I'm trying to figure out, I suppose, why you're viewing this as like the problem, the point where the problem started.

0:18:57 PZ: Uh, yeah Well, the problem is, is because then what happens is when you propose anything that an atheist to regard as valid, they'll just fall back and say no, that's not it. Yeah.

0:19:18 Thomas: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah totally. Okay, that's actually where I was going to go with it because Cause I've, I hear it when you try to make any sort of political point or any other point, you know, or we should be, we should care about people because there is no God, you know, whatever it is, whenever you're trying to make some sort of appeal to some other policy, that's not directly, there is No God. Then you get resistance from people saying, Hey, stop, stop talking about that on your show. It's atheism, you know? That kind of thing. Okay. Is that, that kind of where you're going?

0:19:42 PZ: Yeah. Yes. Exactly. And and where it really got, uh, pretty bad was when I mentioned that you, you know, one of the things that an atheist ought to consider is that half of us are women. So maybe an atheist should also be a feminist. And as you might guess, that blew up.

0:20:10 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah. That was when someone threw a tomato at you. Probably.

0:20:16 PZ: Yeah, that's where suddenly, no, feminism is cancer, right? All that.

0:20:20 Thomas: Gosh, even back then there were people because Oh, wow. I thought, I thought that took a while to to brew on YouTube, but I guess it, yeah, maybe it's only when I took notice of it.

0:20:22 PZ: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Do you think Milo's actually creative? No, this has been floating around for years and years years and years and and it's this thing where people actively resented the idea that there's more to atheism than simply rejecting god, or at least more to the atheism movement, you know, the organized group that is doing things. Um, and that was the most common excuse is no, atheism is only disbelief in gods and that's it, and anything else you add to that is is objectionable. Uh, unfortunately, though, for them, you know, at that time, my reputation was largely resting on the fact that I was talking about science. And they have absolutely no problem with, oh, yeah, let's include science as part of atheism.

0:20:36 Thomas: Yeah. True. True. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:21:17 PZ: You know, the atheist movement should be promoting good science. But apparently promoting equality for women is too far.

0:21:26 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, that's interesting, because that is a value that they're putting into it, as much as it seems like it wouldn't be, promoting science is a value, you know, like that's, that's.

0:21:34 PZ: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are a large number of values that we hold that we would like to see represented in the organizations and movements that we support. And I can sort of sympathize, if you think feminism is cancer, then yeah, you're going to say, no, that's a value I don't want to have included. But again, the only people who say that feminism is Cancer tend to be stupid.

0:21:58 Thomas: Yeah.

0:22:05 PZ: Why do we want them as part of the movement? They can, you know, they're still atheists, of course, you know, we don't believe in god, so they put that definition, uh, but as movers and shakers and leaders and, uh, you know, even even the the troops on the ground for the growth of atheism, there's a problem there.

0:22:23 Thomas: You know, this is something I've been thinking a lot about. And I, it actually just occurred to me like last night, I was just thinking, you know, I'm an atheist, sure. And, and I'm all about atheism, but the religion that I maybe care most about right now is anti-feminism. Like that is the religion that I would love to try to deconvert people from. Anti-femanism and anti-SJWs Because huge. And the funny thing about that religion, the religion of anti-feminism, is it covers atheists and Christians.

0:22:57 PZ: Yeah.

0:22:57 Thomas: It covers like Republicans. It's enormous. Enormous, it's the main driver of Trump, I think, is this reaction to anyone who's trying to make equality happen in any small way. And it really, yeah, yeah.

0:22:58 PZ: Yeah.

0:23:13 PZ: I'm I would also include racism as well but there's a good bit of that as well but it's the same thing where where we have, we have a group of people who consider them themselves elite because they're so clever that they can see god is not real, and they don't want anyone else in the club, so they actively oppose, you know, the the Social Justice Warrior stuff, like promoting feminism and opposing racism, uh, because that opens up the club to more people. I think it's part of it. Yeah.

0:23:19 Thomas: Absolutely. Yeah.

0:23:46 Thomas: Is that, yeah? Is that what it is, you think? Yeah, I don't know. I just think it's, yeah. It's, one thing that's funny about the club you mentioned is that their club now includes religious people. They're so concerned with their for evil, which is SJWs. As you totally justifiably point out, it's not just feminism. When I said SJW, I meant to include kind of all that stuff, just anyone trying to fight for equality in any way. I think Black Lives Matter may be an even bigger part of that, where you're anti-Black Lives Matter, you're anti-feminist. And those people are willing to include in their tent all kinds of religious people. There are Christians at this Mythicism Milwaukee thing because they're so in love with this anti- feminist, anti-Black Lives Matter, you know, rhetoric. And it really is a religion.

I mean, it really ist because they take their, what they do is they find their little cherry very picked examples. They find the, you know, the worst example they can find on the social justice side. They gather around, you Know, as they ridicule that person. And then there's certain things become articles of faith, you Now, that that feminism is cancer and that there is no gender wage gap and that whatever it is, you Know, Black Lives Matter is a terrorist organization. It

0:24:01 PZ: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:25:04 Thomas: Becomes these articles of Faith that they repeat to each other. And you saw, if anyone anyone watched the video of Mythicism Milwaukee, when I even tried to define intersectionality, they can't handle, they boot. They can't even handle me defining it because it goes against their dogma.

0:25:20 PZ: That's right. And then, of course, they do the double reverse act, which is now claiming that feminism is a religion and Black Lives Matter is a a religion. There is no rape culture. That's part of the dogma of post-modernism, which they also do not understand, uh, which is also kind of annoying, um,

0:25:28 Thomas: Yeah.

0:25:39 Thomas: Right, right, right. Rape culture, I mean, yeah, I'm not an expert on that, but I think Harvey Weinstein is a good demonstration of how it's, you know, you can get away with so much because there's a culture that enables and silences people who speak out against I mean, there's so much there. I don't know how you could be in denial of it. It's weird. I don'T know how they could look at that and not see a systemic problem there. But anyway, side note, I suppose.

0:25:39 PZ: Yeah. Yeah. Right.

0:25:56 PZ: Yeah. And Yeah. Part of part of it is that these are people who buy into the notion of individuals, individualism, that you know, they are free of cultural influences. Of course, they are, you know, they're, they're independent, independent, they're, they may worship Ayn Rand, but no, otherwise they're, they're completely free of these sorts of influences, and they can see right through them all, uh, so anybody who talks about things that they dislike must be doing it because they're propaganda driven.

0:26:11 Thomas: Yeah, right.

0:26:35 Thomas: Yeah, I found that to be totally true with them. And it's so funny because I think that also works back into what you were saying about the dictionary atheism, because one of the big problems I had with, and I know you wrote wrote a little something on it, David Smalley's somewhat recent article, was I find people trying to claim the default ground in the name of whatever they believe in. I think it does come from just what you mentioned there, which is, well, I'm free of biases. I've reasoned my way into this. I don't have any weird cultural or religious things in my mind. I know what's right. Right. I'm the default for atheism. And anybody who's trying to add anything else to it is is is bringing something that shouldn't be part of the default atheism?

0:27:07 PZ: Exactly.

0:27:25 PZ: And part of that is another word they hate, which is privilege, that they're in such a privileged position that they do not see the impositions that are made on other people. They just see that, hey, you know, my life has been relatively free of racism. And because I'm a male, it's been free of sexism. So these things don't exist.

0:27:28 Thomas: Yeah.

0:27:46 Thomas: Yeah, I it is. It just reminded me, too, of another of another incident I had, because obviously, yeah, I just I just had a very real experience with a lot of these people. And one guy who was perfectly nice to me the whole night, actually, I'm sure he I'm sur he jeered me and said crap in the crowd. But once it was, you know, at the after party, he was, he's perfectly nice. He was a supporter of, of Sargon and, uh, but his entire, his entire argument against my whole thing was that he's a guy who looks white and pretty much is white, but he has a Mexican last name. And that was his whole argument. Well, how do you explain what I experienced? Because I'll get preferential treatment on a resume or on a, uh. Sorry, on a because of my last name. And that was his entire thing. It's like, okay, well, you're a unique situation. Does that somehow mean nothing else is going wrong in terms of admissions for Latinos who we know are grossly underrepresented? I don't understand what your point is. It is like

0:27:48 PZ: Uh huh. Yeah, no,

0:28:48 Thomas: If they can point to one little exception for something, somehow that invalidates the entire enterprise.

0:28:55 PZ: it'S Well, I don't even think it's an exception. Because I think what would happen is that, you know, for instance, I'm on hiring committees here at my university. And we run into this all all the time, that um there's... there's a couple of really common phrases that pop up, and in candidate reviews, you know, like, "Will he really fit in" is one of those dangerous sentences that you get to listen for. That um way too often we say, "Well, uh, this guy, this guy has a Latin name, and the only people in this area who have, you know, Mexican names are all working in poultry farms and menial a labor. How could they possibly be fitting in as a professor?" And it

0:29:37 Thomas: Yeah, that sounds like one of those terms that's kind of loaded. There's a lot behind that.

0:29:43 PZ: Is, it is there. I mean, it's, and, and that's why, that's why he isn't getting preference for his name. What's happening is we're, we're looking through these applications, and we look at them, and we see, okay, this guy has got, you know, a Hispanic name. We can't possibly just throw him out the first round. We have to to look a little more carefully at him. But then, if if that person doesn't fit the needs of the job, yeah, he won't get the job. It's just that we're actively trying to counter this implicit bias that is everywhere in our culture, and it doesn't, it doesn't mean we're suddenly giving an advantage to black people or women or anything. It just means we're working really hard to prevent the the bias against them that already exists.

0:30:19 Thomas: Right.

0:30:32 Thomas: Absolutely. Yeah. That is what they think. That is what everybody that I talk to think. They think that white men are getting shafted. They're getting screwed because we're trying to let other people into stuff. But back to, I suppose we're we're going back to 2010. We haven't made much progress, but we'll see how it goes. So, what happened in this that made you feel like this was kind of a catalyzing event when you mentioned we should maybe care about feminism and stuff like that?

0:30:37 PZ: Oh, Yeah, yeah.

0:30:58 PZ: It was, it was more of a preliminary to the to the big event. But uh, yeah, that, you know, I just, I just got so much hate mail over what I thought was a fairly trivial point, is you know, that that there's more to atheism than just this one point, that otherwise we wouldn't be in organized groups, and we wouldn't be joining these things. We wouldn't be going to conferences, because conferences would really be boring if everybody just got up there and said, there is no God, there's no God.

0:31:15 Thomas: Right. Yeah. Right.

0:31:28 PZ: So that was a problem. Then the fact that, as examples, what I was saying is the other features we ought to have in atheism is support for equality and feminism, that we've got to do something about the fact that almost all of us are white, right? We had to deal with this, um, and and that raised hackles among a lot of people, among a law of the people that you're now becoming acquainted with.

0:31:58 PZ: So that, that was, you know, that just sort of set the stage. The the real thing that suddenly ruptured the entire movement was what has been called Elevatorgate, yeah, and

0:32:10 Thomas: I, yeah, I had, let's see, Stephanie's van, I think, spoke about that somewhat recently. So, we'll go ahead and consider our listeners somewhat apprised of that situation, situation, uh, but Yeah, so that was that around that time, trying to, blanking what year that was. Was that around then, in 2011? Okay, it that really was a big, somehow it's as stupid and as minor as it really should have been, that really did split the entire movement in half, it seems like, yep.

0:32:11 PZ: Oh, Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, 2011, yeah it was a conference in Ireland.

0:32:38 PZ: Yeah, and you know, when you go back and you watch the original video with Rebecca Watson, it is the mildest possible thing where she just says, guys, don't do that." And all of a sudden there's people screaming, "Oh, she accused somebody of rape." Uh which did not happen. Yeah, and and you begin to realize that, you know, these guys really are delicate little snowflakes, and uh, so there, there became, there began these open campaigns within the movement to blacklist people. So, um, you know, Rebecca Watson got blacklisted by Richard Dawkins.

0:32:48 Thomas: Absolutely. Yep. There's so much sensitivity Yep. Yeah.

0:33:20 Thomas: Some people, I'm not sure if we covered that, and I've heard some things about that. He literally said, I'm not going to do, or don't allow her to speak on a conference.

0:33:24 PZ: Yes. He literally told David Silverman that he could not invite Rebecca Watson to a conference he was going to be at, or that he would refuse to participate. And that's bad news for a conference, because Richard Dawkins was and still is a gigantic draw, um, you know, and there's good reasons for that, but then there's also this ass hattery behind him that's kind of annoying, um. And then, you know, it's like we were, yeah,

0:33:59 Thomas: And that's such a shitty thing to do. I mean, if you're so intellectual too, you can't even stand to be around a person. In, like to have a, you know, what is the big, even if you do totally disagree with her, I don't understand. It's just such a shitty thing to do, to use your power in that way. Like it's, yeah.

0:34:18 PZ: Right. Yeah, and it's happened multiple times since, that there's, there are people who've been silenced out of the movement. That I know, I've been blacklisted at a number of conferences. Know, so that there are a set of voices that are being silenced quietly. It's not like they make an announcement, "You're kicked out." They just stop inviting you. I've been talking to some conference organizers, and they'll say things like, "Oh, we would love to have you, but there's this guy in our committee who just absolutely despises you and despises feminism." And so we don't want that kind of controversy.

0:35:01 Thomas: Wow. I feel like that's what I can look forward to now. Anyway, what, what does it, what is it that, I suppose, when did this start for you when you, you perceive yourself now as having having been blacklisted, what do you think you did or what, you know, was there something?

0:35:07 PZ: Oh, that one's easy. I accused Michael Shermer of rape.

0:35:19 Thomas: Yeah. Ah, yeah. That, that whole thing. I remember that just

0:35:26 PZ: Yeah. Yeah, that, um, I was contacted by his victim, um, a woman, and actually several of her friends as well, who who gave a pretty convincing account, and got, we had multiple witnesses, and and, you know, to the aftermath of this event. And uh, she asked me simply to publicize her story.

0:35:50 Thomas: To try to stop it from happening to other people.

0:35:50 PZ: Yeah. And And and then, you know, when I started asking around, you know, "Is this believable?" All these women started telling me, "Yeah, it's really believable. He has this incredibly skeevy reputation."

0:35:53 Thomas: Yeah.

0:36:06 PZ: And it's this kind of thing where the man hanging around here, I am completely oblivious to the Whisper Network. It's like the Harvey Weinstein thing right now that, you know, there were people who were enablers for him, but But there were also a lot of people who just did their best to keep it very, very quiet and on the down low. And so when somebody steps forward and suddenly reveals, here's a specific event where he did this horrible thing, becomes a major issue. And That was the case with Shermer. There were a number of stories that I got from quite a few people about his behavior at conferences, experiences, and then there was this one account by this one woman who was pretty specific about how he got her drunk and took her to his hotel room and took advantage of her, and she, she was woke up terrified and and runs from the room, you know, half drunk, and it was an ugly story. Yeah.

And the thing is that when you're told that kind of story, you've, you're suddenly faced with a choice. Do you, do you actually do what the woman asked you to do and publicize this thing because there weren't any criminal charges brought, or do you contribute to the silencing of this problem and allow it to persist? And so, you know, personally, I, I could not in good conscience be silent, and so I

0:36:12 Thomas: Yeah, right. Yeah yeah yeah.

0:37:34 PZ: Publicized it, knowing that I was just about to poison my career in the atheist movement. And fortunately, I have a day job, so it's not like – no,

0:37:44 Thomas: I can't imagine that was a decision you took lightly at at all. I mean, how?

0:37:49 PZ: I agonized over it for a couple of days. And I wrote back to them and I said, if you want me to say this, you've got to give me some kind of evidence confirming that this happened. And so she gave me a list of names, people who were witnesses who knew about this, other people who experienced lesser skeevy behavior from Shermer. And I spent a couple of days contacting these people. And yeah, it was looking like there was nothing. You know, after doing all that work, too, you couldn't very well say, well, I've heard from these 10 voices. We've all confirmed that he's he's a rotten person, but he's powerful in the movement. So I'm not going to say anything.

0:37:50 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:38:37 PZ: So I had to go public with it. Uh, and even now it's, it's one of my reputations in the atheist movement is that I accuse everyone of committing rape to Silence them, and no, I don't think I've ever accused anyone of rape except Michael Schirmer.

0:38:48 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, so that that's the you're the one thing you did.

0:38:54 PZ: Yeah. And Forever you're known as the guy who called rape. Yeah.

0:39:02 Thomas: Yeah. It's it is amazing. I mean, it comes back to that overreaction that you touched on with the Elevatorgate thing. And it's, there is so much overreacted to this. And it's one, it was something I was a little blind to until, I don't know, a year or two ago, And I started seeing just how much people overreact to these little challenges to their privilege, you know, little things.

0:39:24 PZ: Well, I think being accused of rape is kind of A big challenge To Your privilege, but But

0:39:26 Thomas: No, I'm not talking. Yeah, but I'm nicht talking about Schirmer. I'm niet talking about him. I'm talking about everybody else. Why should everyone else give a shit? Like, you now, why should your average atheist be outraged at you for after substantiating it and after going, you're talking to so many people reporting, hey, this is somebody told told me this happened. Why should they be so outraged at you? I think it comes back to that. It comes back that feeling like, okay, well, if this person's going to be held accountable, then anything anyone says, it's just an overreaction to it that I've found. I don't know. Otherwise, I don't know how to explain it. I don't know what that comes from, all that backlash against you for pointing out something that was pretty well documented and well well substantiated and it's not like you you put them in jail you just you reported what you you know what you knew yeah

0:39:28 PZ: Yeah, yeah, right, yeah. Right, yeah yeah.

0:40:15 PZ: Well, no. Yes, and I totally destroyed his career, you may have noticed. But at the same time, though, I can't get too upset about it. Because for instance, Rebecca Watson just saying, guys, don't do that. And the reaction she got was even worse than what I experienced. So What I was getting was this tiny little reflection of what many women experience all the time on the Internet. So it's hard for me to say, yeah, I'm a special victim who needs special treatment because that's not the case. I'm one of many. The only thing special about me is I'm more of the few guys that's getting it. Yeah.

0:40:25 Thomas: Probably mm-hmm Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

0:41:01 Thomas: Absolutely. So, so that happened. Um, well, I guess that was a bit after the Elevatorgate thing, right? Wasn't there a few years

0:41:07 PZ: It was. Uh, I can't remember the exact date, now, but like a year or two after that, you know.

0:41:08 Thomas: Yeah. Okay. And Uh, It's safe to say that by that point, you didn't feel like part of the movement as much anymore, mainstream, yeah.

0:41:14 PZ: No.

0:41:23 PZ: No. That, you know, that that there's a whole bunch of things that that are kind of disenchanting about the movement right now and uh, There, there, there are bright spots here and there, and I think there is a growing improvement. You know, back at the time of Elevator, the big controversy, and you probably heard about this from Stephanie's van, was things like codes of conduct at conferences.

0:41:23 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yep, yep.

0:41:50 PZ: There were people who were melting down over the idea that there would be rules that you couldn't, you know, molest women in the hallways.

0:41:59 Thomas: Again, it's that overreaction. Is well, whoa, wait a minute, now I can't even talk to a girl? It's like, no, dick, like, there's, it's not that hard to have rules that provide a safer environment for women. But also, as Stephanie told us on the episode, people are still having sex at conferences. It's not like it shuts That's not a, doesn't become like some Christian cult where you, everybody wears you, unrevealing outfits, fits and nobody talks to each other. It's not that, but it's that overreaction again.

0:42:21 PZ: Yeah, the fact that we're demanding that, you Know, we're saying sex is fine, but you better have consent, you Now, mutual consent on both sides. And that's just freaking people out, and you know, but honestly, though, you know, at the time we first started talking about all this, it was, it was a much bigger deal than it is now. And nowadays you can see that most conferences will have a code of conduct, so we're getting slow improvements like that. But I, I think it'll be a long time before we're, we're a truly enlightened group, group of atheists. Hi.

0:42:38 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right?

0:43:08 Thomas: Yeah, of course. And some part of that may be just that split where it's like, there are, you know, there's this third, what would you say? Is it 50-50? Is 75-25? I never know. I can never tell. I would be curious what your perception of the movement is because all All the biggest voices, you know, like all that, like the Dawkins and the Sam Harris, like they're the ones who do seem to have these really shitty fans who say, you know, so I would be amazed if people who cared about feminism were somehow in the majority. I wouldbe absolutely astonished if that were true. What is your perception of the number balance?

0:43:25 PZ: Yo. Right.

0:43:48 PZ: Well, It's not so much a perception, it's just kind of a feeling from talking to people, is that I think that the, you know, that the assholes were a minority, that they're, they're maybe 10 percent, really. But They're a very vocal minority, and furthermore they're somewhat fanatical about it, so you may have noticed that if you look at at the right-wing nutcase Patreon accounts and monetized YouTube accounts and so forth, they're raking in buckets of dough because their fans feel like they need to crusade for their ideals, and so they are hanging out.

0:43:58 Thomas: Hmm. Really? Wow.

0:44:30 Thomas: They feel like victims, too. Too.

0:44:32 PZ: Yeah, so it means that if you're one of those softy liberal types like you or something, you're probably not making as much money as Sargon.

0:44:46 Thomas: Well, yeah, I've been very lucky. I think I'm doing better than Sargon, but only due to a very fortunate sequence of events and my other podcast, my law podcast with Andrew Torrez, that makes a big difference. But yes, I mean, especially when you look at someone like Jordan B. Peterson, who, in addition to not even being an atheist, is also raking in... in... Are you familiar with Jeremy Peterson?

0:44:52 PZ: Oh, that's good.

0:45:12 PZ: Yes, I am.

0:45:13 Thomas: Yes. He is raking in, what is it, $60,000 a month on Patreon for hating trans people. It's amazing.

0:45:13 PZ: Yeah. I know. Yeah.

0:45:23 Thomas: So I don't know. I'm amazed that you would... Frankly, I'm in disbelief about this 10% thing. I hope you're right. I actually really would love you to be right, but don't you... I mean, are you... So do you think it's like a a silent majority thing where it's, there's a 10% of real motivated assholes, but then there's some number of people who are kind of going along with it or enabling them.

0:45:23 PZ: You know. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and that also that the people who are on our side, um, tend to recognize that there's a whole bunch of problems they have to deal with. So they're not going to fling money at some guy who's saying something as obvious as, well, we should get rid of racism and we should give women equal opportunities.

0:46:05 PZ: You know, that's, that's like just the, the lowest bar you you can go over, yeah.

0:46:05 Thomas: Yeah, that's a good point. Because there's not, it's not like I can paint, you know, myself as some crusader for, like, I'm not going to fix all these problems. But if you're Sargon and you can paint yourself as the savior for the white man, the poor disenfranchised white man. I suppose it plays into that a little better. But

0:46:12 PZ: So exactly and yeah so it feeds into their paranoia and it feeds into their need to have a narrative that paints them as, you know, the heroes fighting against those horrible people who want to oppress them, so um, that helps them quite a bit, I think.

0:46:29 Thomas: Yeah.

0:46:42 Thomas: But don't you think, I mean, just given, again, Dawkins, as you said, huge moneymaker for atheism, huge draw. Sam Harris, gigantic draw. Um, are, and, and Harris's podcast is enormous. Absolutely enormous. Um, you think that that would be strong evidence that, that given their views, and I suppose, you know, not all their listeners and followers are going to be exactly like them, but given that, uh, know, Dawkins is certainly awful on the question of feminism in my opinion, and and the Elevatorgate thing was, his response to it was absurd. What he did with Rebecca Watson was absurd, given that, I mean, I, I would be hard to imagine that, that those two huge audiences wouldn't constitute a large portion of the atheist movement, but, uh, well, it's the only way you and I will be able to paint our victim narrative as we have to be, we haveと be outnumbered.

0:46:46 PZ: Yeah, Yeah, You're trying to convince me of something, yeah, uh, yeah, you know, and it's like, you know, here we are in the United States, how did Trump get elected? Because there are so many, yeah.

0:47:46 Thomas: Yeah. Well, exactly. No, but exactly. Exactly. Like, that's what I said about it. It's not the bigger religion now is the anti-feminism, anti-Black Lives Matter. Like that, that is how he got elected. And that's almost half the country. So, you know, I mean, maybe we can hope it's a little disproportionately smaller in atheism, but I don't know. At any rate.

0:47:49 PZ: Yeah Okay, you're you're persuading that I'm guilty of wishful thinking, and

0:48:09 Thomas: Right. But I do, I absolutely do think what you said about the progress. I mean, people like Stephanie and people who have been fighting for things as simple as codes of conduct and everybody out there. I mean, there's a lot of people who are making progress, and I do think that that's important to recognize, and it's a great sign. But what do you think about, and maybe you're not the person to ask because you've been blacklisted, but, what I mean, people simultaneously, to conferences possibly getting better and having codes of conduct and all that, they're also dying out, according to some, um, which I don't know how to feel about that, if that's, you know, if they're getting better and dying out, like, maybe that's another sign that the, the assholes are in the majority, but what do you think about that? I mean, is, is that product of, I suppose, go ahead.

0:48:52 PZ: Yeah yeah you know, let just, just to go back to the earlier point, I think one of the things going on is, uh, is branding that, you know, you've, you've seen those things where they ask, you know, naive voters about policies and whether they favor things like health care and stuff like that, they all say yes, yes, and they all sound like progressive liberal Democrats, and then you ask, ask them, will you vote for the Republican or the Democrat? And they say the Republican.

0:49:09 Thomas: Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Right, or the one that we all saw at the last election was, do you support the Affordable Care Act? Oh, sure, that sounds great. What about Obamacare? Oh no way, I don't support Obamcare, even though of course they're the same thing.

0:49:34 PZ: Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, and that might be one of the reasons I'm kind of hopeful about the proportions is just that we've been really lousy at labeling. And the other side is really good at very simplistically labeling people.

0:49:45 Thomas: Right.

0:49:56 Thomas: Crooked Hillary.

0:49:57 PZ: SJWs, right? Yeah.

0:49:57 Thomas: Oh, yeah. SJW.

0:50:00 PZ: They're the enemy.

0:50:01 Thomas: That's why I wish I knew who to credit with this. I wish I did. I apologize that I don't. But that's why I think that the status quo warrior thing is so great, because they really are SQW. I mean, they really our status quo warriors. They want everything to continue on in its merry way where white people have privilege and all that. That. But, you know, you talk about branding. I just realized I wanted to ask you about atheism plus. What's the deal with atheism? Plus, what is it? It's because if you ask Sargon and his sycophants, that's what I'm a part of, even though I don't even know anything about It. And yeah, it's they they think it's still it's this still going. It's a, I don't know. Know I, what, what is it, uh,

0:50:37 PZ: Oh, yes. Oh, man, that's that's a complicated story because what it is is a couple years ago, um, Jen McCrite was the one who came up with the name. Uh, you know, we we had all this ferment going on with people yelling at each other about feminism and all this other crap. And, um, you know, the few women got really upset with that, so Jen Macwright and Greta Christina in particular, and they basically said, okay, we won't argue over the soul of atheism anymore, we'll go our own way, and we'll set up a little group called Atheism Plus, which is atheism plus humanist ideals. Okay? That's

0:51:19 Thomas: Wow. Wouldn't you think that would be a good solution, that then, yeah,

0:51:25 PZ: What I thought, I I endorsed it, hardly, I mean, I thought that was great, that, okay, that that will end the wars because we just have, you know, these two groups where, yeah, if you just believe atheism is a disbelief in gods, you can call yourself an atheist, no problem, and if you think atheism plus humanism is a good thing, then you should be labeling yourself atheist plus. Um, the thing is, it got so much hatred, it was amazing, you know, you're you're seeing it now where even Sargon is treating it still as the boogeyman, that here's this horrible thing they were trying to do, when what they were actually doing, just saying, okay, we'll go our own way and leave you guys alone.

0:51:26 Thomas: Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Doing exactly what you would think they would want.

0:52:09 PZ: Yes. But the thing is, it's a challenge to them because now it's saying that we're going to be a different group, and it's going to be people who think our group is better than your group. You can't have that. Right. So, he's, there were a lot of people that are very upset about it. And it was curious for me, too, because although I agreed entirely with it, because it was some women who founded it, you know, I consciously said this to people that I'm not going to get involved. I will support it completely. But at that time, if my name was tied onto it, that would be another reason to shoot it down. And so I just, I unconsciously dissociated myself from it. And it didn't help because I still get people telling me I'm the king of Atheist Plus.

0:52:18 Thomas: Okay. Yeah,

0:52:56 PZ: And they they they exclaim, I founded it, that I ran it, that I was promoting it, and it's true, I was saying, yeah, you should join this, it's a good thing if you're, if this is what you want to do with atheism, but otherwise I had absolutely nothing to do with it. And it just, it just shocks me every time I see somebody pegging the atheist plus label on me because strictly speaking, speaking, it's not appropriate.

0:53:02 Thomas: Wow. Wow. Yeah, So, when you, what ended up happening? Like, what was it, was it a forum, was it it a group, was it a, does it still exist?

0:53:34 PZ: I think it sort of exists, but it was mainly just a forum where people could get together to talk about this stuff, and it was a forum with a hit, some rules about what you could talk about, um, and where they would ban people Like

0:53:46 Thomas: I Bet You weren't allowed to sexually harass people. It's lame stuff like that.

0:53:49 PZ: Right. Yes. Or and that you had to endorse the values of the group, you know, things like, yeah, we should think women should be equal, and then black people are equal, and all that kind of stuff. Um, and so they banned people who tried it, and it got subjected to the most intense trolling, yeah, you know, the people, the people who follow Sargon are the kind of people who then intentionally sign up for atheist plus.

0:53:50 Thomas: Yeah, mm-hmm. Yeah, Yep. You Mean the kind of people who are going back to videos that I did from a separate channel when my show is named something else, from like five years ago, and are kind of, oh, Sargon raped you, those kind of people, is it those kind kind of people?

0:54:24 PZ: Those Kinds of people, yes, they would charge in there and they just go, they just, you know, puke all over the site. Um, and then, just the fact that, you know, if somebody said they were atheist plus, uh, on YouTube or any other forum, uh, there would be a horde of people to charge in and just trash, you know, everything you said, it didn't matter what you said, the fact that you're part of atheism plus, um, was a crime against humanity, and they would, and it still lingers, you've you've seen it that, yeah,

0:54:48 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm apparently part of a thing. I didn't even, I mean, I knew the name, but I didn'T know what it was or really, you know, I wasn'T kind of, I WASN'T as involved back then, so I didn't, I guess I kind of missed it.

0:55:04 PZ: Yeah, And It Was it was a small group to begin with and it's even smaller now because most of the people have realized that they're not going to get anything done in this context. Um, and the the people who opposed it so much were intent on destroying it, and they think that was a virtue, I just I, I'm just completely confused by it, that's

0:55:11 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah they're, they really will never be happy with, people who hold those values. It doesn'T matter if they try to do their own thing, which you would think would be better to them than taking over atheism or, you know, something like that, but they will never be happy about it.

So, with all that as a backdrop, I do know that, I mean, I've seen you, you're very, your language is very, okay, PZ, you say a lot of very harsh things at times, and I think we've painted a good picture of where that's coming from, but I wonder, like, sometimes I see your rhetoric, and some of it is very violent sounding, and I wonder if that's something, and maybe this is something you've changed or not, I don't know, I'm going based off of maybe a year ago or so, but is I dunno, what are your thoughts on that, because I do know that there are people who of course are against you because you're, you know, because of a bunch of really bad bad reasons and really associative, You know, just nothing. But there's also, I think there are people who maybe might have some concerns that aren't so easily discarded that have to do with the way you engage with people online. What are your thoughts on that?

0:55:38 PZ: Right. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, That, my on that, are complicated. Do we have another hour?

0:56:51 Thomas: Sure. I mean, I really want to know. I want to where you're coming from.

0:56:52 PZ: Oh, yeah. So I tend to use aggressive rhetoric because that's just how I think. I have very strong opinions about a number of things, and I'm not shy about expressing that. Has that rhetoric changed over the years? I would agree that, yeah, it has kind of softened over time in some ways, and not necessarily in other ways, that I've I've become even more strident when it comes to issues like feminism and racism because those issues have become, become very serious, I think, as problems. Um, on others, though, yeah, would I say I've sometimes gotten over the top? Yeah, I bet you I I have quite a few times, you know, but then again, there's also things have changed a little bit. I mean, for instance, you know about the rusty porcupine meme that went around?

0:57:27 Thomas: Yeah.

0:57:48 Thomas: No. Lay it on me.

0:57:51 PZ: OK, OK, that that was just an example of something that became incredibly common on my blog that I didn't use much, but many of the commenters did, which was they had this stock phrase that if somebody said something something stupid, they would just say something like, uh, stick it up your ass with a rusty porcupine, because the idea was that was that was so ridiculous that nobody would take it as a literal threat, and I tolerated it for quite a while just because, uh, yeah, again, the aggressive rhetoric, but then a couple years ago I just told everyone, no, let's just knock that off, it's just, it's not worth it to even present an idea that we're advocating violence, even cartoon violence. So there has been a gradual evolution of the rhetoric on the site.

0:58:17 Thomas: Hmm. Really? Okay.

0:58:44 Thomas: Okay. Yeah, that's good. I'm glad you did that because that is something that, I mean, as much as I do think there's a fundamental difference between essentially an aggressor and someone defending themselves or defending marginalized groups, I do do think there is a fundamental difference there, but I don't know, in my opinion, I also think using violence and specifically sexually violent rhetoric, I don't, I actually don't support that. I mean, I don't, either way, I mean even if you're condemning Sargon or his followers are harassing me right now, I'm doing my best. Doesn't mean, you know, doesn't mean I'm perfect, doesn't mean anyone can't slip up, but I'm doing my best to, I just don't think that's a good solution to the problem, you know, to, yeah,

0:58:45 PZ: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

0:59:31 Thomas: Yeah.

0:59:32 PZ: And it's complicated, though, because at the time that phrase came up, it was coined by a feminist woman who was really upset at some of the people who were trolling the site and then then, you know,

0:59:47 Thomas: And I see that. I think you're right. I see that there, and I strongly stand by that there is a fundamental difference between fending off a bunch of attacks and venting frustration, you know, and especially with something that is absurdist. I mean, that's a phrase that's obviously not meant to be taken literally. It's not literally possible. So it's different than tweeting or saying to somebody something, something that is actually possible and is actually playing on differences in strength and differences in marginalization that will cause someone actual anxiety and fear and that kind of thing.

0:59:47 PZ: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right.

1:00:26 PZ: Yeah, the time it was, it was a a witty and persuasive moment for a few people in the group and it got, and it just kind of took off and became emblematic of how people saw us, us approaching other people who we opposed, and that was another reason it had to be squelched, is because ultimately that's not how we're dealing with it. Right, it's not by shouting them down with pithy insults until they go silent, it's, we got to engage their ideas and show how wrong they are.

1:00:35 Thomas: Right. Yeah.

1:01:01 PZ: You know.

1:01:02 Thomas: So I would say, I would feel, it would be remiss if I didn't ask you about one more thing. And it is something that I actually did on my little show at the time that I'm sure you will have taken no notice of, and not that you should have. It was something that I did have a bit of a beef with you on, or just a one-sided beef, I suppose, whatever that is. And that was when Robin Williams died.

1:01:02 PZ: Oh. Oh, yeah.

1:01:29 Thomas: Because that might've been when you blocked me because I think I might've challenged you on it on Twitter and I got the block. And I doubt, I didn't say anything offensive, offensive, but, but you, you said that, you know, you, you get a lot of abuse and you have an itchy trigger finger. And I, I 100% sympathize with that, especially right now.

1:01:37 PZ: Right. Yeah. Right.

1:01:50 Thomas: So no, no hard feelings whatsoever, but I do want to at least bring that up because it is something that I did criticize you on. And I don't, I don'T want to just pretend I've never had any issues with you, especially because right now I'm, you Know, accused of being your best friend and you're, you KNOW, all these, these, these misogynists like to say that I'm Dan Errol's best friend. And I'm your best friend and we're all the same person and we all...

1:02:12 PZ: And, This is the first time we've talked, but okay.

1:02:12 Thomas: Exactly, exactly. But no, I did, I remember the thing you wrote on it and I got your point for anyone who doesn't know. I mean, I believe if I'm representing it properly, your point was that we weren't paying enough attention to some of the police violence. I think at that time it was, was it Michael Brown? I believe. And that the Robin Williams news had kind of taken over everything. Thing. And I get that. But what I wanted to say to you is I wonder if you have any regrets on how you wrote that. Because for me and for people who suffer from mental illness, the Robin Williams thing was a big thing. For people of my age, honestly, maybe it'll sound stupid or corny to you, but he was sort of a father figure to us in the 90s. People who were kids and all these these, these to say it, but it really is true, like, they're, he was beloved by people my age, probably not

1:02:32 PZ: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. Well,

1:03:07 Thomas: For the stuff that you know him from, but for the cartoons he did, and the, you now, Hook, and all that, and was, it was troubling, you know, it's something a lot of people cared a lot about, you know, and tied into, to possibly depression, and, and and I know now it sounds like he had a condition that wasn't exactly that. But I know, do you have any regrets in how you worded that? Or do you think that...

1:03:29 PZ: Well, Yeah, I mean, that what I regret is that I was trying to address what I consider still to be a real problem, and the way I chose to address it is the we often address things, and that is sarcastically, and and so all people saw was he's being sarcastic about Robin Williams' death, how horrible. And I would agree, I mean, because maybe you don't believe this, but I actually liked Robin Williams too, I liked his work, and And And Well,

1:04:00 Thomas: Yeah, it is hard to believe after what you wrote. I'll be honest. It was pretty dismissive.

1:04:04 PZ: But yeah.

1:04:05 Thomas: But yeah, sure.

1:04:06 PZ: But the point of what I was writing was that here was this non-stop coverage of his death just went went on and on and on. And none of it was really addressing anything of significance. It's a typical 24-hour news cycle thing where if nothing much is happening, you take one thing and you spend 24 hours on it, no matter what.

1:04:31 Thomas: But of course, the problem was there were things happening that were not getting coverage, which I do, I think you were making a totally valid point on that.

1:04:36 PZ: And yes, it was actually a couple of points. Yeah, suddenly we're ignoring everything else happening in the world. This is still a problem. If you turn on the news right now, I guarantee guarantee you, uh, it's it's going to be Donald Trump or something and not any of the real problems of the world. But also I was really annoyed because here's this guy who's who's got this this amazing reputation who has killed himself, and all they wanted to talk about was, you know, the details of this death, and I know, if you know, if this were somebody I cared about, you know, that's implying that I didn't care about Robin's at all, but, you know, if it was somebody close to me and they were dwelling over and over again on the details of his murder or his suicide, um, I would feel like this is incredibly offensive, that if I were a family member I would rather have some more respect for what was going on, and yeah, back off on the minute by minute coverage, go ahead, put on a one hour retrospective of his work.

Right, that would be marvelous, and then to have testimonials from people saying how wonderful he was, how good he was in their life, that's appropriate. But sitting there with cameras staring at the death house and wheeling things out into into hearses or ambulances or whatever, uh, it was driving me nuts. Yeah.

1:04:47 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

1:06:08 Thomas: Well, I hear that. I think that all sounds valid. But would it be reasonable to say, though, that the target of your piece didn't really come across as that? Like, it came across that you were targeting people who were mourning him and not the media. All

1:06:08 PZ: Yes, I well, yeah, and it also came across that I was targeting Robin Williams because a lot of people were saying to me, how dare you criticize Robin Williams? And I was not criticizing Robin Williams at all. But no, I will definitely take the blame that that was something where I did not communicate well. And that doing things, yeah. And that when you're dealing with a beloved figure who has died and sarcasm is not appropriate for that time, hold it back.

1:06:41 Thomas: Right. Well, there you go.

1:06:53 Thomas: Well, yeah, I mean, I think the sarcasm part is not necessarily what I have the biggest problem was. It was more where the target came across as. I hear what you're saying. I think that the way you wrote it sounded like you were targeting people you didn't mean to target.

1:06:54 PZ: Yes, and and that that means that I wrote it poorly, um, mainly.

1:07:11 Thomas: Right. But I do think that, well, okay, thanks for saying that. And that is something that I didn't have access to speaking to you at the time. It was a while ago. I just had a tiny little podcast. But I just wanted to bring it up because I feel like people who've been listening to me since back then would find it unfair, I think, if I didn't broach it, but, uh, but there we go. Topic topic settled.

1:07:13 PZ: Yeah. So,

1:07:34 Thomas: Yeah, of

1:07:33 PZ: It's okay, yeah, No, no, and, really, uh, when I when I blocked you, it was completely unaware of who you were or what you were saying. It was like, yeah.

1:07:39 Thomas: Course, yeah, yeah, oh, I I absolutely Never took that personally. Don't, don't worry about that, yeah, um, and I and I want to echo, like, right now I've had to do the same thing where I'm doing my best to go through and and pick out, okay, that's a troll. I don't, I really have never been one to block too many people, and it is because, you know, of privilege, like I don't have the kind of trolling and attacking that a lot of people have have.

But now I'm trying to go through and find, okay, if it's someone trying to make a point, I won't block you. Like if someone's trying to say, hey, you know, what you said about something was wrong. You know, I'm not going to block you, but people are, the people who are just saying Sargon raped you, Sargon rape, you knows, what dialogue is happening with those people? You know? What discourse? And so the only reason I bring it up is I am experiencing that. And it's probably even still now to a much lesser degree than you were. And so, you know, I never took that personally. You're clicking

1:07:43 PZ: Yeah, okay. Yeah, right,

1:08:37 Thomas: Through, you're trying to find who the appropriate blocky is. But anyway, I think that also the core point of what you were writing does still stand. Our news cycle, our focus is absurd. You know, we'll get an unarmed black man murdered, essentially, eventually, and it'll be a story, and then the next thing that'll happen will be completely meaningless and we'll move on to that, and it really does cause us to never properly focus in on these problems, so I I do think it was a valid point.

1:09:02 PZ: Yeah, and the news cycle also tends to focus in on on the wrong things, that it's an interesting story. If it's a Muslim terrorist, it's not so interesting. If it is an alt-right white separatist sort of terrorist.

1:09:11 Thomas: Yeah, right, and and what was the criminal history of the unarmed black man who was doing nothing wrong? What was his family? Oh, did he have an uncle who was, uh, who was once sold drugs or something, you know, just stuff like that? It really really is poor.

1:09:23 PZ: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can we find a lineup photo of him?

1:09:36 Thomas: Exactly, exactly. There was that, gosh, what was that? I don't know if it was a Twitter or a Tumblr or something where someone tried to take, instead of using that kind of lineup photo, that police photo for people, actually use the photos that they would use if it was the white person. They use the class photo, they use the whatever. It really is amazing how How many ways, what I hope is unconscious bias plays into it when the coverage of people, it's really, really, yeah, well, now I'm the optimist and you're the pessimist. All right, well I've taken plenty of your time. I know that we barely scratched the surface, we really have, but thanks so much for talking to me and I hope to do it again sometime. Maybe we can, now that we've covered a lot of the basics, you know, maybe we can focus in on a more specific issue next time, but

1:09:53 PZ: Right.

1:10:07 PZ: I'm not so confident it's unconscious, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure.

1:10:28 PZ: Like, what are we going to do next? How are we, how are we good?

1:10:29 Thomas: Yeah. What did you say? Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. Say a word on that. Like now, now that you brought it up, I can't let you go. What, what, what are you doing now? Well, just give me the, I suppose, what is it you're doing now within the movement? How do you view what you'redoing? Are you, do you, feel that you're in the atheism movement? Do you feel that kind of outside of it and poking at it? You know, how do you feel about where you are?

1:10:38 PZ: Oh no. Okay.

1:10:54 PZ: I kind of feel like I'm on the fringes of it, but you know, uh, you know I, I run this network called free thought blogs where, you Know, we're, we'RE trying to, we'Re trying to give people who don't usually get a voice in this movement of voice. So some of our criteria for, for becoming a blogger here is say, yeah, you think social justice is a really good thing.

1:10:55 Thomas: Okay. Yeah.

1:11:18 PZ: And we don't make as much money as some of the big name racists do. But, you know, we bring in some and we try to do revenue sharing. And it's really more of a cooperative than anything else. And I kind of feel like that's a good thing I can do is that I can take some of my notoriety and some of my, you know, traffic and redirect it to other people who people ought to be listening to as well, so you know, that's one thing. Yeah, and then otherwise I'm I'm working on a book.

1:11:50 Thomas: No. That's great. Oh Cool, what did you, is the, uh, topic something you can mention or I

1:11:58 PZ: It's it's going to be a science book more than an atheist book, but I'm going to try and explain how a developmental biologist, biologist can come to the conclusion that there is no god by first explaining developmental biology, and then it becomes very obvious that, oh, yeah, that a naturalistic approach explains things so much better than the supernatural explanation.

1:12:03 Thomas: Like it, oh interesting oh Well, we'll have to look forward to that, any idea when that might be out, the time range of that? Hmm.

1:12:27 PZ: Well, I was supposed to get it done this year, and then what happened is my sabbatical got postponed, so I'm going on sabbaticle next year, and that's all I'm going to do is work on the stupid book and get it done.

1:12:34 Thomas: Yeah. Hunker down, yeah Yeah, so it may be a little while, but we'll look forward, I'm sure we'll speak hopefully before then But, but yeah, I hear what you're doing. And that's something I'm trying to do now too. I mean, with my platform for whatever it is, I have been making an effort to try to get voices on here. White men like you that just aren't heard normally. No, I'm just kidding.

1:12:45 PZ: It'll be a lot. Yeah.

1:13:02 Thomas: I have tried to get women, people of color on. I do think it's important because I think that's Something, again, to play the optimist, it's something that even very well-intentioned people fall into all the time. When I started started podcasting and I wasn't very big at all. All my podcaster friends were white men and we just would have these white men shows. And not to say that there's anything wrong with it, but if you don't keep an eye on it, you realize, oh, I've been not giving any other representation to any other group. It's a little unfair. And it's something that I'm trying to do much better now than I was when I started. And I, it is something I'm putting effort into. I think that's a good thing you're doing with free thought blogs. So,

1:13:39 PZ: Yeah. Right. Yeah. And more and more, I've been learning that, you know, sometimes it's a good idea for me just to shut up and let somebody else speak. Know, that's true both in my academic life and in atheism. And that is that there are all these people who are saying really smart, intelligent, wonderful things. And I am not being a good ally and I'm not helping when I barge in and say, oh, yeah, that's really good. Let me restate your point so Um, But It But yeah,

1:13:52 Thomas: Yeah.

1:14:14 Thomas: Interesting. Yeah. Well, I won't restate your point then. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, no, that's a good thought. I agree with that. I'm sure there's plenty of ways that I fall into that that I could examine. So yeah. Well, thanks for the conversation. Again, I've taken a lot of your time, gone over what I normally do, but it was well worth it to me. Hope it was worthwhile for you in the time you took to talk to me here because I really did enjoy it, PZ.

1:14:20 PZ: Yeah.

1:14:41 PZ: Me too, so let's do it again sometime, okay? Talk to you later.

1:14:43 Thomas: Absolutely.