SIO84: Interview with Jessica Xiao; Sargon's Persecution Complex

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only. This is episode number 84. I'm your host, Thomas Smith. All right. Bit of an interesting episode for you today. I have a, it's sort of a half interview, half commentary episode. And Jessica Xiao, and we're going to talk about whether or not men should call themselves feminists, so she has some really interesting thoughts on that, and I enjoyed that conversation. We also went on to talk about some other things, and then after that, there's a lot I want to talk about that actually shares a common theme with a lot of what Jessica says. So that is a perfect transition. And then also, actually, Sargon made a video about me, and he got nearly every factual question involved wrong, and I think it perfectly encapsulates why I'm on the side I'm on, and in my view, why people like him are on the side they're on. He's on. So that's my little agenda for today. Let's get over to my interview with Jessica Xiao. Jessica Xiao, how's it going?

0:01:36 Jessica: Good, how are you doing?

0:01:37 Thomas: Doing well, thanks. But first off, could we tell everybody a little bit about you? What you do, who you you are. And also you will be at California Free Thought Day. So maybe tell us about what you plan to be doing there.

0:01:48 Jessica: Sure, so David Diskin invited me to speak at California Free Thought Day. Perhaps because I used to be more involved in the atheist movement, I worked at the American Humanist Association. I currently work at an organization called Free Minds Book Club and Writing Workshop, where we work with incarcerated youth throughout their incarceration. And then when they come home, we offer reentry services. On the side, I also write or I used to write for Everyday Feminism on topics of justice, feminism, race issues, identity, that sort of thing. I also talk a lot about disposability culture and radical vulnerability online. So I do a lot of angry ranting on my Facebook and I'm a volunteer grant writer for Artistry Sood, but I also do um a ton of other things, I guess, in

0:02:00 Thomas: I was going to

0:02:38 Jessica: Addition to that

0:02:38 Thomas: Say, it sounds like you do a lot. You seem to be.

0:02:38 Jessica: Yeah I don't have my CV on hand, but I mean

0:02:41 Thomas: Yeah. What makes you think you're qualified for this position? No, I'm just kidding. So it sounds like you don't have time to be talking to me, I guess is what I'm trying to say. It sounds like you keep busy. So there's so much we could talk about, but one thing I did want to ask you about was this post of yours I saw about men calling themselves feminists. I guess I don't lose much sleep over it either way. Like if somebody tells me I shouldn't call myself a feminist. I don't really care. I'll just try to say what maybe will be the most accurate thing. But what did you mean by that? Should men refer to themselves as feminists?

0:02:42 Jessica: Yeah I try yeah I'll put it this way, I'm very deeply suspicious of men who refer to themselves as feminists right off the bat, um, it to me it suggests that there's a sort of agenda behind identifying as a feminist. There's must be a reason why you're identifying as the feminist. And in my circles, if you identify as a feminist to women, for example, it's kind of not the right space to be. I don't think it's the right place to be doing that personally, because it sounds to me like you're trying to perform or you're time to, you know, stamp yourself something when you should be trying to behave in those ways.

0:03:20 Thomas: Oh, okay.

0:03:48 Thomas: So are you taking more if someone's proactively doing it? Like, what if someone just asked me, hey, are you a feminist? Like I wouldn't really want to say no. Like, I would You know what I mean? I don't want to give that signal. If someone asked me if I'm a feminist, I would want to say... My instinct would be, oh, absolutely, because I want to support that and I want to be vocally supportive of that cause. But are you referring to that or more like proactively saying it, like going out and saying, hey, everyone, look at me. I'm not a feminist. You know, that kind of thing.

0:04:10 Jessica: I think my yeah Branding, branding as a feminist as a male to me automatically off the bat feels very disingenuous. However, if someone asks you whether you are a feminist, I think the most appropriate answer might be, you know, I support feminism, I am an ally of feminism. To say that I am a feminist kind of presupposes is that you can, you can kind of shed all of the socialized masculinity that you have and to be a woman kind of feeling the effects of patriarchy. And I don't think that a man can ever fully be that, because they are also dealing with their masculinity. You can never kind of fully decouple yourself from being a being a guy.

0:04:23 Thomas: Hmm. Hmm.

0:05:01 Jessica: So that's why I think that, you know, male feminism is just, to me, like, there are so many better ways of of being a supporter of feminism, of the movement. There are så many ways of just, you know, doing feminist things, of working with with men, with other men, to kind of build up a culture of nurturing each other, of calling out toxic and sexist behaviors, of amplifying women who are writing about feminism, of amplifying men in the workplace, making sure that their accomplishments are noted by the people who are in positions of power, that sort of thing. So that, for me, definitely signify somebody who is a man who has feminist values who I can trust. But if somebody says off the bat that they're a male feminist, it concerns me, because I really, really am not sure why they're telling me that.

0:05:53 Jessica: Because it makes me feel like a man treating a woman as an equal is something that is a special category. That is something like not the norm. And it's not the normal. But I don't like being made to feel that way. Does that kind of make sense?

0:06:08 Thomas: Yeah, I guess the question comes down to then it's when you describe that, you're describing men proactively kind of telling you that and the fact that they're signaling, if I have you correct, that they're sort of trying to signal something that tells you, that sort of reminds you that women aren't necessarily seen as equals in our society. And that's kind of an uncomfortable thing, if

0:06:30 Jessica: Right. I Mean, that's an uncomfortable thing, but that's not the main reason why somebody shouldn't identify as a male as a female feminist Because

0:06:39 Thomas: Oh, it's not? What's the main reason?

0:06:42 Jessica: Men cannot fully comprehend the experiences of being a non-man, and so you can be an ally, but you are not a feminist. For example, you can Bean ally to for example Asian Americans, but you aren't an Asian American.

0:06:56 Thomas: No. Yeah. No. So feminist, I guess I didn't realize maybe that it was that the word functioned that way. Suppose. Okay. It might just be a definitional thing. I thought feminist was like, I don't know, Democrat, Republican, where it's someone who holds a set of values. I guess I never thought of it as inherently your identity has to be something, I suppose.

0:07:28 Jessica: And I mean, there are people who will argue the way that you do, because there's again, there's this no true Scotsman, and there are different approaches to feminism. I don't think that One Can be a Feminist.

0:07:38 Thomas: Well, can I just stop you? Because I'm not arguing this. I genuinely am trying to work through it. I just was posing the question. I'm really just curious of your view on this. I'm not trying to argue either way.

0:07:39 Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. No, I'm, I'm Just saying that my view is definitely, you know, just one kind of strand, one approach. It's not an all-defining approach, but I think that there are a lot of people who feel the same way that I do, a lot of women who feel the same way I do.

0:07:51 Thomas: Okay, sure. So there was one point bring up with you regarding where the Mythicist Milwaukee bullshit is there where I read one of his tweets, where he had said feminism is a mental illness and everybody who has it is fucking insane or something like that. And I felt in that moment, it was important to say, and tell me what you think, but I felt important to say, I consider myself a feminist. So you were talking about me. And that was the right thing to do. But if it wasn't, then I'll live with it. But I just want, you know, like that was an example where I thought, in this moment, I do want to identify as a feminist, because to do my best to try to help be a shield for this. But, I don't know.

0:08:47 Jessica: Yeah, so again, I can't tell you whether that was right or wrong globally.

0:08:54 Jessica: I definitely agree with the way you handled it. I've gotten this question as well, you know, where people are like, oh, if I'm in the present of presence of MRAs, you know, I like to mess around, identify as a feminist just to kind of troll them and things like that, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, that's fine if you want to have fun in that way. Because when you're using feminist as a label, then you know what it means to the person who you're speaking to, rather than using it as kind of an internalized identity for yourself.

0:09:23 Thomas: Hmm. Okay.

0:09:25 Jessica: So there's, I think there's a little bit of difference in the way you're Using it there.

0:09:28 Thomas: Sure. Yeah. And I also, just to add to what you just said, in the presence of an MRA who, like some of these particularly toxic ones, try to say, no, I'm not a feminist, you're sort of giving in to them in a way that doesn't feel right to me. Because they want that victory, you know?

0:09:46 Jessica: Well, you, you can't really explain the nuances of feminism to an MRA. So like, you Can't be like, well, I'm not a feminist, but I'm an ally. And this is why, like they're not gonna, so yeah.

0:09:54 Thomas: Yeah, that's true. All right. No, you're totally right. And as an example of that, I tried to define intersectionality at that debate and just merely trying to, I tried To get him to define it. And he would, he did nothing of the kind. And I said, okay, would you, is it, would you like me to define It? And I was booed for merely trying To explain Explain what an idea is, like merely explain what a concept is.

0:09:57 Jessica: Yeah. Wow. Wow.

0:10:22 Thomas: So it's very difficult to, you're right, I don't think, it's context matters and being in the context of someone who cannot even mentally grasp what these ideas are, who can't handle trying to even give that much of an effort. You're right that I suppose these more nuanced discussions of like how precisely should male feminists label themselves. I suppose they don't really apply in that context.

0:10:24 Jessica: Right.

0:10:51 Jessica: I mean, what did you think of the post? How did it make you feel? So

0:10:55 Thomas: That I try to keep in mind is that as a white male, and this is my opinion, I think a lot of people probably disagree with me, but I do feel like as a White male, I need to recognize that most things in our society tend to favor me. There's so many times of some sort of offense or mental, I don't know, unpleasantness that I don't have to go through. My first thought when I see someone say, you know, anything negative about a male feminist, when I have a ping of like, oh, is that me? Is someone saying I'm bad or something? My second thought after I have an an initial feeling is I need to try to put this in perspective.

0:11:47 Thomas: Like, you know, like, is this something that even if it does perhaps hurt my feelings for a minute, is it's how, how like how does that compare to what women might go through every day, you know, when it comes to toxic masculinity or misogyny or, or in general sexism, like everyday sexism. Them. And so that, that was kind of how I thought about that.

0:12:12 Jessica: I mean, I think that's the right way to grapple with it, you know, you see a post that seems to be about you, and then you deal with all of these feelings that you're having, but probably not working out with somebody of a marginalized identity, just kind of of working through them internally or amongst peers, and then afterwards you kind of reach that kind of broader perspective. So I think that makes sense that you went through that range of emotions while reading that, it means that you took it personally, which is always a good first step, and then you step back and you don't take it personally.

0:12:45 Thomas: Hmm. Just, I, I apologize for saying this, but that, but sounds like a lot of what I've faced this weekend in these arguments of, I don't care that I was offensive to somebody that they shouldn't take it personally. They should step back. And you know, like I didn't, doesn't that sound a lot like that answer?

0:13:02 Jessica: No, so you should take it personally at first, right, is what I'm saying, like, you have to grapple with it and you have have to think about it a little bit, and then you step back and you look at the bigger picture, the way you did, where you empathize with the person who is writing that post or the person expressing those feelings, and you consider what it means to be in their shoes and why they're expressing this about oppression. And by looking at it that way, you're taking a broader view of how it's something that affects society on a large scale and not just you as an individual, so you step step back from those feelings that you're having about that. And then that's how you can kind of proceed past it.

0:13:07 Thomas: Hmm. Okay.

0:13:42 Jessica: So it's, it's not the same as kind of just not, you know, they should just suck it up, right? And deal with it. It's not it's Not exactly the same.

0:13:52 Thomas: Okay, yeah, I think I see that distinction. So, the only thing I would, the only other question I would have about this is, know, I saw a poll, and actually I think a lot of these MRA-type people use this data to try to say that, you now, feminists are so bad that they're turning everybody off, that only, I don't know, what is it, like 17% of people identify as feminists, and I found that kind of distressing. Want that number to be higher rather than lower. So I guess that would be my only other concern with something like that, which is like, that are. Would you want more people in a poll like that to say, say, yes, I identify as a feminist or no,

0:13:55 Jessica: Okay, I don't really want to broaden my tent for people who are not down with the movement. So and I also, yeah,

0:14:40 Thomas: Suppose. Sorry. Let me start looking. Let me rephrase.

0:14:42 Jessica: I'm like, I I couldn't care less about a specific, like about people identifying on a poll necessarily. I would want to build and nurture my communities to be stronger, healthier, healthier, happier places to be. And if that means that one day we can transcend these things, like calling ourselves feminists or humanists or whatever, but we are just healthy, real societal relationships. Relationships, I would be happy with that. So I really don't want to like focus on those people who be turned off by the things I'm saying. I want to focus on Those people who feel like they're heard, who resonate with what I'm seeing.

0:15:28 Jessica: But I get what you mean on in terms of strategy. And I think that there are other people who take those approaches, where they think pragmatically speaking it might be better to have numbers. I am working in terms of depth, I think, rather than breath, so it's right.

0:15:45 Thomas: Okay. That's interesting. Depth rather than breadth. Yeah. I, yeah, I, I suppose you're right. And I was going to try to clarify that. I don't, if, if the facts about the world all stayed the same, except more people merely identified as feminists, I would say that would make no, make no difference. So on that, on that that's not really what what I meant, though. I kind of meant I meant the things that would go along with people actually considering themselves. Yeah.

0:16:09 Thomas: And feeling like like, yeah, no, I'm totally a feminist and doing their best to kind of, you know, live that out, too. So like that, that's what I mean to say when I mean, do you wish more people would identify as feminists?

0:15:58 Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mobilizing and the power behind that, yeah. Yeah, be Great, but I mean, they also, I don't want to add people, like, I don't want people to just feel comfortable identifying as a feminist if it's not necessarily something that agrees with my values. Um, so if, if they're still not on board with, you know, things like rights for sex workers, rights for trans workers, intersectionality, that sort of thing, like, I don't necessarily, those aren't the people who I'm trying to approach. Those aren't the people whom I would consider feminists, necessarily, like in terms of the types of people who would want to work with.

0:16:54 Thomas: Yeah, that makes sense. I was Trying to think, like, what if, as atheists, there are a bunch of people who believed in, like, a deity. Like, we're more deists, or we're more like, had a spiritual thing where, like, yeah, no, I'm an atheist. And you're like, well, you're not really an atheist, like, you, you still believe some of this stuff. Like, would we want a bunch of people just identifying as atheists who don't actually not believe in gods? That kind of thing. Is that analogous to what you're saying?

0:16:55 Jessica: So, yeah.

0:17:21 Jessica: Yeah. It's something along those lines.

0:17:21 Thomas: Yeah. Okay. I'm still really sad, though, that the numbers are that low, because I think I think you saw the results of that in this election. Like if more people had a positive view and wanted to be feminist and wanted to promote those ideas, I don't think it would have gone the way it went.

0:17:26 Jessica: No, for sure. Yeah, right.

0:17:38 Jessica: And optics do matter. So those poll numbers do have meaning in that sense. Whether, you know, I find the actual values meaningful or not. But for people, they represent how many feminists are out there.

0:17:49 Thomas: Right. Right, you don't change a topic. I was going to ask you, actually, because you said you were in the atheist movement to some extent and the humanist movement, like what is your opinion on kind of the state of of that movement? Do you consider yourself part of it? What do you think is the state of the movement?

0:17:59 Jessica: Didn't I didn't really describe my atheism in that sort of way until I started working at the American Humanist Association, and that's the first time where I heard of this atheism, secularism, humanism as being described as a movement, movement, um, and that was really odd for me at first, because I just, I didn't know that there were so many people who were working in the space, um, for church-state separation and for people who are living in religious areas who may not have a sense of community because they're atheists, um, I've never had to personally experience that sort of thing, so it was, it was very new to me to to consider, wow, people aren't just by default kind of, you know, trying to be very thoughtful, introspective, trying to employ logic and critical thinking and realizing, you know, how much emotions play into that and trying to be emotionally intelligent.

0:19:09 Jessica: Like, I didn't know that these weren't kind of default places to be. And I didn't realize the extent of the religiosity of the United States. And so it a movement was very strange at first. However, it is really important for us to not let that harm other people, oppress other people impact policymaking. And so I think that's kind of the main reason why I think it is important to have so many people working in this space and calling it movement, movement as yeah, yeah, as for my place in it, I think I mentioned to you earlier, there's a reason I don't even call myself an activist, I think I'm just a person who's trying to like best represent my values, and so it's hard for me to consider myself any of these things, I just kind of am, I do what I do and then I try to help people, it Well,

0:19:33 Thomas: Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, that makes sense. That's a great answer. I've said this before. I often forget about it because I was at ReasonCon somewhat recently and met so many people who were like, literally, oh, wait, you were? Oh, that's weird. I didn't know that.

0:20:15 Jessica: I was at Reason Khan, yeah Yeah

0:20:19 Thomas: Yeah, well, too bad we didn't Know Each Other sooner. We could have talked. But anyway, yeah, I met so many people who were, yeah, they were religious as hell yesterday. You know, like they just got out of like this really kind of, at times, oppressive or mentally oppressive, you know, religions, these churches that are really controlling all this stuff. And I, and I had to check myself and be like, oh, yeah, there are a lot of people, you know, we still live in a very Christian nation full of people who are coming out of that and they certainly deserve a movement and they certainly deserve people trying to help them out of that and people trying, as you said, better than I can say, to try to fight for secularism in this country, that kind of thing. Absolutely. That's something I tend to forget about because, like you, I never really had that like a oppressive kind of culty or other, you know, that kind of religious upbringing.

0:20:19 Jessica: Right Yeah

0:21:16 Thomas: So I sometimes don't understand that as much, or I don't keep it in mind as much I guess. And so I totally agree with that sentiment. Go ahead.

0:21:21 Jessica: Providing Yeah providing those types of services is extremely important, um, I also think that, you know, it would be great if we could take some of the focus off of trying to deconvert individuals if they are, are perfectly happy focusing on the oppressive kind of things that happen from this sort of religious mindset, that can possibly happen from that. So when it comes to policy implications that affect other people, that sort of thing we should be tackling. But I don't think we should go around trying to proselytize in a way, basically, to deconvert people from religion if they're not harming anybody else with their views. We need to kind of focus more on the social justice aspect and on the maximum impact rather than this sort of anger against people who are still religious, because I think that a lot of that does stem from trauma.

It does stem from someone internalizing someone else's religious state or their faith as being like, oh, hey, I remember when I was in that faith and I remember how angry I was and how betrayed I felt after leaving it because I learned that so much of my life was a lie. Well, maybe this other person doesn't feel that way, and maybe they're not harming anybody else, and maybe their not personal. They don't personally feel harmed by it. In that case, I think we should just stay out of their business, um,

0:21:56 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah,

0:22:45 Jessica: And try and focus on doing good for the world, maybe that's my humanism speaking, I don't know, that's

0:22:51 Thomas: No, I, I agree. I think, I think I agree, but I, the only problem I see with that is things like voting where, where you're, Know, you know, someone's you voting to take away women's access to, to that kind of thing.

0:23:04 Jessica: Right, as soon as it gets political, that's when I care, as soon as it gets to a point where they can affect somebody else, right

0:23:07 Thomas: Yeah. Right. But the only part I was gonna make with that is there's often, there's not really a way you can sometimes with some of these issues, you can't just argue against that one thing. Like there's no logical way to tell somebody, well, okay, believe what you want as long as it doesn't affect anybody else, but you can vote this way. They're going to say, well, why not? This is what my religion tells me. And in that case, I think you do have to fight the religion. Like, there's no way around saying, well, this is wrong, you know, like, right.

0:23:32 Jessica: Yeah Absolutely yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, I'm just thinking that the focus of our advocacy work, the focus of when we talk about issues should not be, oh, your religion is wrong. It should be, feminism means that people of all genders deserve equality, which equals this and this and this policy implication, which is related to these sorts of philosophies that are in conflict necessarily, like could be in conflict with your religion.

And that's kind of the entry point that we, we get into, we don't kind of go straight for, your religion is wrong, we focus on these other issues instead, like, this is why white supremacy exists in the U.S., or, you know, these are the things that come out of white supremacy of the U.S., um, and this is how it might be related to the Bible, um, I think we should take kind of more of a focus when we're, you know, a different kind, messaging and branding, if you will, instead of just attacking somebody for their beliefs straight up. Because some people do have a very, has a very distinct profile of what they believe and don't believe. And so everyone's religious belief is very different as well.

0:24:50 Thomas: I see what you're saying. So, Jessica, with that said, why don't you tell people where to find you if they want to check your stuff out on the Internet?

0:24:56 Jessica: Sure. I have a Twitter. I usually post most of my writing on Facebook. I should be using Medium more I also have some articles at the establishment Everyday Feminism and on TheHumanist.com So those are the primary virtual areas.

0:25:10 Thomas: Excellent. And I hope everyone in the area or anywhere near the area will come check you out at Sacramento Free Thought.

0:25:20 Jessica: I'm looking forward to seeing you and to seeing everybody else who is there there.

0:25:23 Thomas: Excellent, thanks so much.

0:25:25 Jessica: Alright, take care.

0:25:51 Thomas: Very interesting stuff from Jessica. I've been thinking a lot about it. I've also been doing a little research on this question of men calling themselves feminists, and I think there's, well, there are definitely different sides to it, and she of course said this herself. She said there's women who will disagree with her on this. And but here's kind of how I'm thinking of it, after listening to Jessica, doing some reading on it, and just looking at, by the way, the definition of the word feminist is someone who supports feminist values, essentially. And that's where I could see someone making the argument, sort of like I alluded to in the podcast, where I thought it was sort of like Democrat or Republican, I thought it just meant someone who has these values. And I could point to the dictionary and be like, ah, see, I'm right, it's someone who has feminist values, therefore, it is the same as calling yourself a feminist.

0:26:36 Thomas: Jessica is saying about how when men approach her with that as kind of their brand, she's wondering why they're doing that, and I think that's completely valid, and I also think it reminds me of what Alex Jules said about calling yourself an ally. And I've taken that on, I don't call myself an ally, I try to be an ally. I would love it if I were considered an ally, but it's not really up to me to say that.

And And I think that the same might be true for male feminists. I think Jessica has a great point. It reminds me of a word, maybe this isn't a perfect example, but it reminds me something like thought leader, you know, I could look at the definition of thought leader and I could say, oh, I bet that's me, I should apply that, hey guys, I'm a thought leader. And and then a bunch of people very rightfully would say, hey, that's kind of a douchey thing to say about yourself, why would you call yourself a thought leader? It's like, no, you, you want to try to be, you want to try instill values, and then the label should probably be affixed to you by other people, and in this case by women who, if they want to say that you are being a good feminist, that's up to them. I kind of like that analogy. I think it works.

And I think especially because of how much in our society we see people, we see men calling themselves feminists and then just completely not living up to that name. I think it is important to check yourself and realize, well, maybe it's not so important that I call myself this. Granted, there are circumstances where I think one should.

0:28:07 Thomas: I I think I was right to do it at MythCon when... When Sargon, when I read the quote saying Sargon said all feminists are crazy, like I will gladly identify as a feminist to him, but so in context where I think it's more valuable and it will actually be a bad signal if I, if like an MRA comes up and says, do you think you're a feminist, you consider yourself a feminist? And I say, no, that's like handing them a concession that I don't think one ought to hand them. But I think Jessica seemed to agree with those, those points as well. So I think, I think I'm pretty much perfectly agree with what she's saying. And the more I think about it, the more it seems like a good idea to try to be the values you want to instill, rather rather than call yourself something and then have that possibly blind you, to your shortcomings.

0:28:52 Thomas: You know, it's pretty easy to say, oh yeah, yeah, I'm a feminist. And then because you've written that, you've checked that box and therefore you're not paying attention to what you're actually doing in the world. And I think that is a perfect transition for this little bit I want to talk about this Sargon video. So I did something that I think was a little boneheaded. And I issued an apology for it. You may or may not have seen it. If we're friends on Facebook, even if we are, you might have missed it. Carl, aka Sargon, being if nothing else, a great propagandist, because I think he is a very good propagandists. I think, he's good at propaganda, he is good at riling up anger and white victimhood, that kind of thing. I think is very good at that and the numbers show it, his support, his YouTube numbers show that he is good at something. And in my opinion, that something is propaganda and riling up a bunch of angry people who think they're being victimized merely because their privilege is being checked.

0:29:46 Thomas: But anyway, Carl made a video trying to take advantage of the fact that I apologize to people. And I'll just, I'll start it, and then as soon as it gets something wrong, I will go ahead and pause it.

0:29:56 Clip: Then, I have to really comment on this post, because Thomas Smith did nothing wrong, and I want to explain to you exactly why. So he posted a follow-up to a previous deleted Facebook post, which I didn't archive because I didn't think it was in any way controversial, controversial. He was listing people who were supporters and advocates for his position within his atheist community, and he was saying how these were good people, and he liked them, he wanted to promote them, since a lot of eyes were on him, etc.

0:30:29 Thomas: So, he's already absolutely wrong here, and this is, if there's any Sargon supporters listening, I don't know if there are, but if there is, this this so perfectly sums up what Sargon does. He is completely wrong already in what he thinks I was doing and what my original post was, and he goes on to be further wrong, we'll get to it, but he starts off with a false premise, he completely overreacts to it, and he uses all this very alarmist language, he riles up your anger, it's incredible. So, what actually happened was not, this was not, I want to make a list of people to thank. This it wasn't even I want to make a list of people I like. It was nothing like what he said. What I wanted to do, and what you heard in last week's episode, was I wanted to try to make list of the people who disagreed with Mythinformation's method of doing a conference, to show them how many people realize they're doing the wrong thing.

0:31:20 Thomas: Now here's where I totally screwed up, and I think I did something very insensitive. The way I approached it was, well, I don't want it to just be the usual suspects, because I know that if I tell Mythinformation that, like, you know, Steve Shives and Kristi Winters and Dan Arel are really mad at them, they're not going to care. So the way I phrased it was, hey, give me a list of, like, the prominent mainstream atheists who don't support the things they do, and I listed Matt Dillahunty, Seth Andrews, you know, the major names who had come out. And my intention was not to thank them or give them a shout out at all, it was merely to, the only purpose of what I was doing was to try to show Mythinformation how many people see through what they're doing and don't agree with it, because I haven't found a way yet to be able to explain to people who don't want to be convinced that tweeting "I wouldn't even rape you" is disgusting and these people shouldn't be platformed.

0:32:16 Thomas: I can't, I honestly don't know the way to argue that because they'll just dig in and say, no, it wasn't a rape threat. Well, I never said it was a rape threat, it wasn't a rape threat, it was a negative thing again. I never said it was, I said it was sexual harassment, I said it was very inappropriate, but anyway, I, so my method was going to be, look, I'm not sure how to make you care that you're being really offensive to women and to anyone really, but specifically to women and, and any survivors of sexual assault or sexual harassment. I don't know how to convince you that, but what I can do is show you how many big name prominent atheists agree with me on this. And maybe that'll cause you to think, OK, maybe I'm just not seeing this properly. So that the premise at least, uh, Sargon is totally wrong with what I was trying to do, and let's carry on with the video for a little bit here.

0:33:03 Clip: This absolutely nothing wrong with this, but now he's had to make this follow-up, make this follow-up, and this is just infuriating to me because it's, there is no need for him to do this, he is being persecuted by

0:33:18 Thomas: Persecuted. He says I'm being persecuted. If you ever wanted evidence, or if you ever wondered why I say these people have a victim complex, a kind of a white persecution complex. This is it. This is it right here. I was not persecuted by anybody. Let me tell you what actually happened. So here's what happened. I made that post. A whole bunch of people added their names to the list. People wanted to be included. They wanted to make sure MythCon knew that they disagreed. That's all great. But what happened was I saw a post by a woman who I'm very glad I'm Facebook friends with, because I wouldn't have even seen it otherwise. She didn't even, she didn't target me, she didn't name me. She just posted vaguely about it. And in the post, she pointed out that I was being pretty clueless, and frankly, she was offended by it, and I was persuaded by her argument.

0:34:08 Thomas: And there were, I don't know, five or six comments. So, there was one post which didn't name me or tag me, talked about what she felt about it and five or six comments when I saw it at the time. Maybe it was more later, but when I thought, you know, five or seven comments that were like, yeah, good point. You know, just nothing, not persecution.

0:34:28 Thomas: And here's what the post said, and here's what I've heard from other people from doing this weird thing I like to call listening. When I asked for, okay, who's like the mainstream atheists, the non-SJWs, and made a list of those names, it really echoed something that is a pernicious and very frankly sexist thing that happens in our community. And not just in our community, this happens in all of society. This is a greater need for feminism. This a very big theme in our society. What happens is when a woman, when a person of color, when you name it, says something, complains about someone, points out that, hey, this person's a harasser, or says, hey we're getting persecuted here, we're being I don't know. It unfair, no one really listens until a white man makes the same argument and then all of a sudden it's taken seriously.

0:35:19 Thomas: This happens and it's infuriating. This happens in in the boardroom or in a typical office situation when a woman puts forth an idea, no one listens, a man puts forth the same idea, then all of a sudden everyone is all ears. We are, in our society, we tend to just take men more seriously. We tend to treat them as though their ideas have more merit. This is bias that we have and And it's one of the many reasons that we need feminism. And I think the same thing happens with people of color, etc. So when I did my status, which said, hey, don't, you know, don't include the normal SJWs, I was really insensitive, I shouldn't have done that. I should've just said, hey, anyone who would like to be included among those who publicly condemn Mythicist Milwaukee, let me know. And I should just been inclusive. It wouldn't have been that hard. There was no reason I needed to make that particular list that way.

0:36:07 Thomas: And I could have said, hey, it's not just the usual suspect, it's also these people. And my goal in saying that was because I know Mythicist Milwaukee doesn't listen to social justice people and doesn't listen to women, doesn't listen to people of color on this issue. But what Sargon is calling persecution was merely one person making a post, not at me, talking about how she felt about this list, and and I am so glad I saw it. I wish, I wish you would have targeted me, actually. Feel free to target me with this criticism in the future. Anyone. I know there's reasons people sometimes don't feel safe doing that. They don't, you know, that's up, that's up to you. But as far as I'm concerned, I'm happy if people want to try to give me this feedback, because I think she made great points, and I'm really lucky that I was Facebook friends with her, because I got to see it, and I got to see how this was affecting people, and I get to say, oh, crap, something I inadvertently did, even though, yeah, I didn't mean to do it.

0:37:06 Thomas: I certainly meant to honor those voices first. I meant to praise those The people who have been there from the beginning, I meant to praise them first, sure, but still, like, she doesn't necessarily know that, people seeing this don't necessarily know that. It was insensitive, and I could have avoided it. Listen to where this goes. He reads my response. I don't want to play that whole thing because there's no point in playing him reading me, but I'll try to get to a point where you can really see how feverish this gets.

0:37:33 Clip: Asking for a list of prominent people who don't endorse Mythicist Milwaukee might have been completely clueless. Why? Fucking why, Thomas? There's

0:37:44 Thomas: Group, then Karl, who claims to be an individualist, proceeds to talk about my group of people again, here's what he says.

0:37:53 Clip: Of usual suspects are bullying these people, which is why I was invited, because I will

0:38:01 Thomas: Some people in my community were bullying Mythicist Milwaukee before Sargon was invited, and that's why they invited him? They didn't care about Mythicist Milwaukee until he was invited. They said something when he got invited, so that's completely factually inaccurate. The next part is pretty much incoherent, but I think it could be summarized as old man yells at cloud.

0:38:28 Clip: This made people feel like he was devaluing the voices of those who were right on from the start. So what is this, some kind of communism? You have to drag people down to the lowest common denominator? God forbid some people rise above the herd through merit, because, and let's be honest, we know who those people were.

0:38:50 Thomas: What? What in the world are you talking about? No, it devalued the voices of those who were right from the beginning because I said, hey, forget about all the people who are right from beginning. Tell me the people, the Johnny-come-latelys, who are mainly prominent white men, tell me, give me that list because their voices actually matter. That's how people took it. It's not how I wanted it to be taken, but I totally understand that people took that way. And I wanted to apologize and make it right. That, that's all. No big deal. In the world, is this, stuff about Communism? What is this the Big Lebowski and everything's about Vietnam? There's no literal connection, sure, like what are you talking about?

0:39:31 Clip: Way skewed towards the white male demographic. Thomas is apologising because the progressive Atheism Plus movement is mostly white men like himself.

0:39:47 Thomas: Are so many factually inaccurate premises and what he saying. It's not that I was breaking down the demographics of Atheism Plus, a movement I have nothing to do with, I don't, doesn't seem to really exist anymore, it seems like it's a forum at this point. I'm not the person to ask about that, but it's funny that people like Sargon bring this up all the time as though it's still a big boogeyman for them to be scared of. But anyway, I. I was doing the exact opposite of what he's saying. I was saying, hey, give me the list of people in the mainstream atheist movement who are against Mythicist Milwaukee. And for mainstream atheists, the big voices, the ones that are at the top, are white men. So what that looked like to people was, I saying, hey, disregard all these social justice-oriented voices in atheism, forget them, let's talk about the white people in the movement and what they think.

0:40:36 Thomas: That's how it came across to some people. Again, not how I meant it, but that's how I came across, and I think reasonably so.

0:40:42 Clip: Disgusting. Thomas, what you have done is accurately describe your own movement by pointing out the people within it, and your movement is so gendered and racialized by this point that this comes across as some kind of crime. This is something that you have to then apologize for, which you then say, "I sincerely apologize for how this came across and I'm reflecting on how I could have done better." Thomas, there is literally nothing you could do better there, mate. There is nothing you can do about the fact that your movement is mostly white.

0:41:15 Thomas: There's so much, again, factually wrong here. Yes, I could have done better. I've already said how here, but I could Have just asked for people who want to be included. I could've made no stipulation that it needed to be not the usual social justice suspects, because that felt exclusive to them, and they are right to feel that way. And actually, he's even wrong about the part where there's nothing I can do about the movement being mainly white men. Well, I can, do my best to elevate other voices on my podcast, which I try to do. And I can try to be inclusive and we, and I can. Do my best. To convince other people to try to. Be inclusive. And if we do so, then, uh, it's likely that the movement will increase. Become more diverse. I think that it's reasonable to expect if there are more examples and voices put out there of women and people of color, That those voices will appeal to their communities in a way that I'm not really going to be able to do because I'm not in that community.

0:42:12 Clip: Wrong with that. It is not bad for your movement to be mostly white men. And that's one of the reasons that so many people take objection to it. It's these lenses that you wear that are absolute cancer, because it has you, when you were put in a position of weakness and you should have been given all the support in the world from your community, you have actually been hounded by your fellow progressive activists for pointing out that there are a lot of successful white men in your movement and that they should really apologize for either being successful, white, or male. It's fucking sick, Thomas. It's disgusting. You don't.

0:42:50 Thomas: Listen to how worked up he's gotten over this. I've been hounded, he says. Hounded. He never posts anything to prove this. There's no proof of this. All he's going off of is my apology. He must assume that in order to apologize, I must have been hound. Here's the actual facts. I got tons of support from you guys over this. And I tell you what, it's been really much needed because now that Sargon has made a few videos, I'm getting the trolling from his side. I'm actually getting hounded from his. So the support has been very much appreciated. What he is calling hounding and persecution was literally one person's status. One person's status where they wrote about it and didn't name me and I happened to notice it and I'm so glad I did.

0:43:40 Clip: Apologize. You do not deserve this. You did nothing wrong by thanking those people who were supporting you. It is, I mean, I'm just so disgusted by the people around you. And it's not like we have any great love for each other or anything, Thomas, but I personally don't hate you like you hate me. And I can't just stand by and see this and not comment on it because this, this is entirely the problem. You have been harassed by your own community because you pointed out the reality of your community. I mean, by your own logic here, you need to now de-platform yourself, give your podcast over to, I don't know, a black disabled trans midget or something. Find someone at the top of the progressive stack and and give your podcast over. Because ultimately, what is the logic for you keeping it?

0:44:28 Clip: You are just one more white male, one more privileged white male, who has a platform that you are occupying at the expense of someone else. Every listener of yours could be listening to someone else, a woman, a black person, whatever. That's the logic of your movement, and you don't have an argument against it. This is disgusting, Thomas, and I feel sorry for you. I feel bad that you have have had.

0:44:54 Thomas: Listen to that. Do you see why I think there's white victimhood and white overreaction? He is not willing to call his tweet where he tweeted to a person, to a female member of parliament who is herself a victim of sexual assault, he tweeted, I wouldn't even rape you, and him and his supporters are flabbergasted that I could call that harassment. Meanwhile, he is saying literally, he said literally the words, I'm being harassed by my own movement. Do you see why I don't take him seriously? If there's any Sargon viewers here, do you see why I do not trust him as a source of information? And I don't trust him when he thinks it's white people who are actually being persecuted against because I'm seeing it right here. He is telling me facts about myself and my experience that are completely wrong.

0:45:43 Thomas: You don't think they're wrong? Why don't you go try to find the posts of all the people quote-unquote harassing me? Why don't you find where he used them as evidence? Oh wait, he didn't use them as evidence because he didn't have them. They didn't exist. There was like one post.

0:45:56 Clip: Is despicable, Thomas. They are actively persecuting you because of your race and gender to the point where you now have to apologize and bend the knee because you were born wrong. Do you see the problem that people have with your movement? Do you see? Can you understand?

0:46:14 Thomas: Yeah, I actually do understand that if you view the nothing that happened in this example as persecution, harassment, being hounded, all the words you used, I can see that if that's how you view reality, then your reality is one in which white men are abused and hounded and harassed, but that's just not how reality really is, that's your skewed view of it, and I know because I have proof, because this is a thing that happened to me. Me. You are spinning a version of it that is not even close to true. You want to know what the sad truth is? The truth is I didn't need to apologize. The truth, is I could have just either not seen that status or just ignored it, and I would have been completely fine. There might, maybe I would've seen somebody else or something, I don't know, but that's the sad truth.

0:47:02 Thomas: I could've ignored it. I COULD have not corrected my behavior because of all of our collective blind spots. Because largely, most of us weren't really sensitive to how this was viewed by people of color and by women and by anyone kind of on the social justice side, because it's a blind spot that I had in making that status, and it's a blind spot that I think a lot of anyone who shared it and who commented and who didn't really see kind of how offensive it might have been for some people. And it's not as though I'm not, I don't think my post was like this egregious disgusting thing that I should be killed for. It was just a little insensitive. And that, that is the lesson here. That's, that's what I see. Because when I try, what I do in my life is I really try my hardest to be objective about things.

0:47:50 Thomas: And I think the blind spot of people like Carl Benjamin is they think they're being objective when really they are overreacting in quite absurd ways. The language he used was absurd. But, but here's the real facts, when I try to look at it from a kind of a bird's eye view, an objective view. I said something that people took to mean something that I didn't really mean by it. But that was, was pretty offensive in a lot of ways. It discounted all the good work that Christie, Steve, Dan, a bunch of people whose names I don't even know, for these very same reasons, because they didn't get through to me because we aren't elevating their voices enough. A bunch of work done by people I don't know. And my status was minimizing. And there was so many, many people on it. It was getting so much attention that essentially the mainstream was reinforcing that, the mainstream was discounting that.

0:48:39 Thomas: So I saw that, I saw that it was a little insensitive, and I apologize. I said that that was wrong. I apologize, I'll do better next time. I'm reflecting on it, what I could have done differently. Done. I think at the core of all this is this idea that if any white man ever has to apologize for when they were insensitive, it's like the worst thing in the world to them, somehow it's seen as the worst. If Carl Benjamin had to apologize because he was insensitive, well, for, he never would, he will never apologize for being insensitive, he has said he doesn't care. And that's who he is. I, so, my message back to Carl, I suppose, would be, hey man, it's not a big deal to get something wrong and apologize, and it's hounding and harassment and persecution if one or two people make a comment that's like, oh man, look at this, you know, and they talk about why they thought it was incented.

0:49:32 Thomas: It's not persecution. Execution. And it goes perfectly with what Jessica said earlier when she asked me how her post made me feel. And I said, Well, yeah, I took it personally at first. And she said, Good, take it personally, and then step back and look at it. And I think it's just like that. Yeah, I felt I felt a little hurt at first because I know where my heart is. You know, I know where my intentions are. But the truth of the matter is like intentions don't equal results like it doesn't just because I had good intentions. It doesn't mean it's impossible for me to not mess up. It's not even close. It is very possible for me to mess up, it's very possible for all of us to mess And it's just not that big of a deal to mess up and apologize. It seems to be such a threat to Carl.

0:50:17 Thomas: I don't get it. You know, it's weird. Frankly, there's more to the video and it gets even more absurd. I'm not going to go through more. It's not worth, but it gets, even it gets worse to be honest with you. There's all this, this same kind of rhetoric of how persecuted I am and all blah, blah, it just carries on, but But I've made my point, it's not worth belaboring. It's more of the same.

He does say he would gladly come on my show or have me on his show again, and, you know, there's part of me that thinks, like, well, it would be nice to actually have some arguments, because not only is he morally repugnant, his points are not very good, and a way it would be nice to take a crack at those arguments, and by the way, it's a misrepresentation to say I didn't, I did during the debate, I just wasn't able to because of the crowd and him interrupting, but I actually was able to get at some of his bad arguments, but mostly his arguments were just strawman versions of what he thinks I believe, So it was, as someone on Facebook put it, it was a debate between Sargon and I on what I actually think. So, so it's like, it was his version of what I think. And then I would try to say, and I don't, that's not me. I don't think that. No, no, it's your group. You think that's your crowd. Do you think that, like, okay, that's a fun debate.

At any rate, I feel free, to let me know what you think about that, if I should go on his show or he should come on my, I don't think so, you know, like it doesn't, it doesn't seem to be the right thing for me, and I don't think, for me, I can't get over the fact that he is, has no moral qualms about sexually harassing women online, to me the conversation ends there. There. But, like, I suppose there's a sense in which you could say, okay, for argument's sake, do we want to look past that, but I think that.

0:51:56 Thomas: Would maybe be too harmful to the people who very rightfully feel disgusted and offended and and and sickened by the way he would use rape as a tool to beat someone down with, it's disgusting. And And I just don't think I can dignify that, but I don't know, I mean, tell me your thoughts on that. Tell me what you think. Cause I, cause in a way, if there were a Sargon clone who had all his same ideas, except he hadn't actually harassed anyone, I would say, okay, I do kind of want to argue with them because I know their ideas are bad. So I want to try to counter the ideas, but even then there's so much trollishness. I would never do it in front of a live audience of shit lords, because that's, that's totally unproductive, as we've found. Um, but, but if it were on my show. Show.

0:52:42 Thomas: Maybe I would do it to try to poke through and to try to reach some people. I don't know. Anyway, let's get to happier topics. A result to having so many more patrons, I do wanna do something to make sure I'm giving back to you guys, uh, and one thing is doing a little bonus content, so I had an idea, something I might do with Jake Farr Wharton, which is to cover the, the biggest fake news stories, cuz I want, here's what I wanted, I wanted something that's not too long, because I already put out two episodes a week of this and two episodes a week of Opening Arguments, so honestly people are kind of maxed out, so I wanted to do something that's short-ish, that is not something that I would need to be in the main show, but is still fun, is still factual, and you could still listen to it and learn something, that's what I wanted, and my idea was, let's try tackling a couple of the biggest fake news stories, explaining why they're fake, talking about them, I just thought that would be a nice little addendum, something that if you have time to listen to would be worth your while, but won't be too long and will still be fact-based, so that's my idea, we're going to give it a try, that'll be out somewhat soon within the next week, and you'll have to give me feedback, let me know if you like it.

And speaking of patrons, I've got to thank my new patrons this week, and they are Odom, Danie W., Grace Mantyh, Scott John Harrison, Tim, Dean Whitty, Peter Sharkey, Starside, Guenther Kramer, John Goltry, Scott Peattie, Ryan Ryan Flowers, The Unapologetic, SJW, Matthew Brown, Schofield Miller, Brian Brose, Casey Patton, Sargon of Akkad, Sunny & Carolyn Wetzel,

0:54:18 Thomas: Caitlin Crowe, Stephen Nelson, Confusion Golem, Mike, Jodie, Ian Bushfield, Shayla Jones, Night Adventures, Quentin Lambert, JJJ User, Thomas Smith has Balls of Steel for taking on Sargon, Sarah Follerton, Hausdorff, Karl Otterson. I don't know. I think I have ovaries of steel, but just either way. Thank you, Melissa C., Nix, Daniel Kirsten, Carlton Peters, Tara Strickland, Keith Pawlyshyn, I'm so sorry for these people, I can't pronounce everybody's names, Paula Shin, Julia Person, Ford Warrick Jr., Gregory Lloyd, Off the Coast Hockey Podcast, Monica Garza, Janet Yeutter, Robin, Carol McCuller, James Bianca, Carlos Guillot, Sean, james devine, Matt Carl, Robert Linn, Richard, Sunny, Melissa Silsby, Chris, John Reeder, Sean Kennedy, City, Jude Searles, Gillen Brown, Beteljuice, Caitlin Crowe, David Harcourt, Tom Hamilton, I named my cat Thomas, Mitchell, oh, Mitchell, you're British, it's probably Derbsh, Jeff Peterson, April, Mike Paps, Joseph Mitchell, Psilly Rabbits, Claudia, Cliff Corcoran, Trevoracus, Mike dot, Kevin Wright, Richard Murphy, Michael Tattrup, and Sean Washington.

I'm blown away by the support, thank you guys so very much, really, it has meant the world to me. As I said, the trolling's coming, I'm not really using my T and the B Twitter because it's a mess right now, eventually I'll get around to going

0:55:57 Thomas: And muting everybody that I need to, but I just haven't felt up to it yet, I'm kind of sticking to my other Twitter for some reason, they don't, they haven't really paid attention to that one, but anyway, yeah, it's long story short, once he made the video, it was amazing how many people felt compelled to come tell me how much, you know know, he had owned me and stuff. And it's, it's funny, for it being a battle of ideas, I don't really know what that contributes to the battle of ideals, it's very intellectual pursuit, like, go, I wonder what, after, after Hitch debated somebody, did we all go like to that person and yell at them? Whoa, Hitch just dominated you. Or did we just say, oh, well, let's watch the debate and listen to the ideas.I don't know. It doesn't, I don't see how that is anything but, but trolling is anything but this ownage culture, which is what I said it was from the beginning.

0:56:47 Thomas: That's the culture there. It's not worth platforming. It's not worthwhile. But now I need to thank my all-time greats, and they are Matt Garrett, Peter Skelton, Adrian's Manager of Tentacles at Thomas's Second Chance Law Firm, Roger Metcalf and the Hired Goons, Andrew Waddington, Zabby, Stop Breaking the Lie Asshole, Ian Ryan, Matthew Vernon, Ray Loves Jenny, Robin, The Zika Baby That Lives, Supports Refugee Rights, Marcel the T and the B Nostologist, Defend University of Florida from Nazis and Racists, October 19th, ooh, that's coming up, good thing I read that one, Abseon, Beth Deitch, Sammy, Chas Chas Wallace, Granny Weatherwax, Will Kick Your Ass, Luke Buescher, A New Lefty Blog, SinisterMarginalia.net, Jess Blake, Christopher Hammock, Scott M., Mark Rosano, Embrace the Void, James Hamblin, Randy Waddell, Andrew Rowe, Jay, Heather G.

0:57:36 Thomas: Peters, Derek Barnett, Frank Ferriello, Nate Sheets, You Should Take Legal Advice from Thomas' Other Podcast, and finally, thank you, thank you. Thank you to the Grand Duke Nile. Oh, nice trick, that's actually not the last patron, but it's a little trick name there. Dan Wheatley, Tim, Afroholic, oh, listen to brand new science fiction, sorry, I didn't get that name right the first time, but hey, the second chance, Dan Griffith, Jonathan Moyet, Reasonable Risk Podcast wants you to give to Ari Stillman on Patreon, there you go, manager of all our tentacles, Marissa Alexa McCool and Ari Stillman, Megan, Marissa Alexa McCool and Bethany Futrell, wow, Riss, thank you, and Riss messaged me, I am so honored by that, Riss, thank you for your message.

And really, It's people like Riss and everybody else who needs us in this movement that should be getting the recognition and the thanks, I'm gonna do my best to elevate those voices, Marissa is definitely one of those, so check out Marissa Alexa McCool, Brian Brose, or bros, I like Brose though, because it's like a bro version of Rose, Mitchell Mitchell and Thomas' chief goon, well, of course, my chief goons would be at the top of this list, wouldn't they?, alright, thank you top patrons, thank new patrons, wow, I'm so excited to get you this bonus content, I hope you'll enjoy it, and also, come find me at California Free Thought Day, I will be there this weekend, so will Jessica, so with some of the other guests I've had, it's gonna be a lot of fun, can't wait for it. I'll see you next time. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you next week.