AS264: Sarah Haider, Part 2

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 264, and I'm your host, Thomas Smith. All right, we're gearing up for part two with Sarah Haider. Part one had a great response, a really good interview. People liked it a lot. And part two, I think, is even better because we start debating a bit about discourse and a lot of the things you've heard me talk about before. And it's a good, healthy debate. I like it. And Sarah pushed back quite a bit on these ideas, and I think we're all better for it because we can consider both sides and make up our minds. So thanks for listening, and let's get to part two with Sarah Haider. We could talk a bit about specifically why Islam might pose a bigger threat than any other religion. We started talking about that a little bit, but what do you think it is in the religion that makes it so that it's a particular possible danger to, I don't know, the world, to everybody, I guess, whereas other religions maybe aren't as much right now?

0:01:46 Sarah: Well, I mean, it's, it's not entirely what's in the religion. It's also the attitudes of the believers and the, the way that that Christianity has really been, if I'm focusing on Christianity in particular, But how it's just been declawed in a lot of ways and the way that secularism has really taken away political power from Christianity. That has not happened with Islam. Muslims are still very devout. They hold themselves more closely to the teachings of the Quran. So even if we can say that the Quran and the Bible are exactly the same in terms of how much violence they can justify, even if—we start with the assumption that they're both exactly the same—Islam would still be a bigger danger to society, just based on those two other factors alone.

0:01:59 Thomas: Do

0:02:45 Sarah: Because believers take it more seriously. Believers who are Muslim, they stick more closely to the teachings of their religion and their governments tend to be intertwined with the mosque.

0:03:00 Thomas: You think that's an accident, Or do you think that in itself is also a product of what's in the books? You know, like,

0:03:06 Sarah: Yeah, I think, I mean, that's actually, that something I could talk about for days. I think it's a very interesting conversation. I'm of the opinion that it is something that is a little bit more inherent to Islam than it is to other religions.

0:03:17 Thomas: Interesting.

0:03:21 Sarah: Islam, to me, feels like a very, it's political religion. To me, it's difficult to separate politics and Islam. And I know that But Muslims, Muslim reformers like Majid Nawaz, that's sort of his crusade is to separate political Islam from, you know, just a private faith. I don't know to the extent that that's possible. From my understanding of Islam, or at least the way that I was taught it, it was that it's one of those religions that will take, the victories that it has promised will take place in the real world. You know, they're not going to take place in the hereafter. They're going to happen and you have an active role to play in that. I mean, that's how I understood it.

0:04:07 Sarah: I would have to have a better understanding of Christianity to really make a great comparison of the two.

0:04:12 Thomas: Of course. Well, there's the passage that people cite, render unto Caesar. I don't know. I'm sure.

0:04:17 Sarah: Yeah, render the whole two kingdoms, kingdom of God and, or kingdom of heaven and kingdom. Is that a thing? Is that the theory?

0:04:17 Thomas: Yeah. Well, I don't know. The passage I was talking about is just the verse that says, render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and God what is God's or whatever. But so that, and it came up when I think someone was trying to trap Jesus into not paying a tax because he thought, again, he didn't have to because he's the son of God. But then in that passage, he says, no, no. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. And so, I don't know if the Quran has an analog. If it has something like that, maybe that could be part of it. I don't know.

0:04:56 Sarah: As far as I know, nothing that clear. There are obviously, I mean, in any text that's longer than, you know, you can always find things and you can try and mold them in the way that you would like. I don't think that there has been that history either, because the way the Quran has been interpreted also matters. Because there's a whole, you know, scholarly tradition, and that tradition matters also, of Quranic interpretations and various schools of thought. And as far as I know, it's more involved in politics, more actively involved in policy than Christianity. Christianity. And I feel that that is inherent in Islam. I feel like that is one of those things that's going to be very difficult, maybe more difficult than it has been with Christianity to change. But, you know, I support Majid Nawaz and I support his mission. And I think what he's doing is very valuable. So even if I don't agree with it, I'll support it. And hope

0:04:57 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well.

0:05:56 Sarah: That he can change hearts and minds, but I'm not so

0:05:59 Thomas: This. Yeah. The. Majid is, uh, is really interesting. And the thing about the cartoon was just, oh, that's crazy, where he he tweeted that he wasn't offended by a Jesus and Mo cartoon, I think, and just him saying that was offensive so much to Muslims that he got just nonstop bashed from it, right?

0:06:00 Sarah: Sure.

0:06:22 Sarah: You're right. He's been, it's interesting, he is maligned by Muslims all the time. So this is, I think, a very good exercise to, we are exactly. We are in a place where somebody like Majid Nawaz, if you read his books, if you reading his, you know, the things he says, they're reasonable. They're totally reasonable. In fact, they're not progressive enough for someone like me at all. Right And if it if it wasn't for the fact that now, now I feel like these, I have these strange bedfellows of these Muslims who I don't agree with in a lot of ways, but we have some some goals in common, and he's much more reasonable than than anyone else what

0:06:27 Thomas: Yeah.

0:06:57 Thomas: Well, and just the fact that he's trying to accomplish reform, like it's almost a compromise of like, you're not going to, you know, you're not going to turn devout Muslims into, you know, hippies or something. Like it's got to, there's got to be a bit of a bridge. So maybe, maybe maybe that's part of it.

0:07:13 Sarah: I would say, I don't know how active it can be. I don't think that that's what happened with Christianity. I don't think Christians thought, you know, I don't think Christians thought when they were, I mean, humanism is, uh, it's, it began with with Christians, right? There were Christians who were, uh, the earliest humanists were Christian, and they, I think from my understanding, they thought they were going to get closer to God, you know, and especially with their understanding of the natural world, you're going to understand the natural world, you want to get, you're gonna, um.

0:07:18 Thomas: Yeah.

0:07:42 Thomas: Yeah, there were schools of thought of like, God has given us our senses and our reason and stuff. So therefore, if we use it, you know, we'll be getting closer to him. Is that the kind of thing you're talking about? Yeah.

0:07:51 Sarah: And also, just, you know, they didn't, I don't think they saw the danger that secularism posed, um, or liberalism in general posed. They couldn't have seen it, hadn't happened before, um, but Islam is not, you, Islam has the the ability now to to to look at the example of of Europe. And the western world, right because

0:08:11 Thomas: Well, there was a long period of struggle between church and state, I think, in the Western world. And maybe, you know, Islam, it sounds like it just hasn't had that yet. It seems as though, is there Is there an Islamic state or, that's a bad phrase, I'm sorry. Is there a Muslim country you can think of that has that, more of a struggle between church and state, and not so much of like a cooperation that there seems to be?

0:08:29 Sarah: There is actually, you can Technically, all of them do a little bit. I mean, the secular rulers and the and the, but it's different, it's not like the people versus the church, it's, it's more like the church and the secular ruler is whoever they happen to be

0:08:45 Thomas: Okay. Oh, they're like kind of vying for power sort of thing. Well, that is kind of how it went with Christianity a little bit. So, maybe that is a good sign. I don't know. So, I was going to ask you, do you have any particular insight? And it's okay if you don't, because I know, you know, your upbringing was pretty specific and all that. And we've talked about how you may or may not be like a typical kind of experience of being a Muslim. But do you have any insight as to the question that I think is talked about a lot in atheism and in regressive left debate, that kind of thing, as to whether or not Islam the fuel for things like terrorist attacks and suicide terrorism and that kind of thing? Do you have anything, any thoughts on that? Like, do you think the religion fuels that? Or do you You think, like, there are some people whose theory is, no, these are just,

0:08:54 Sarah: Right yeah that's what it is. No.

0:09:42 Thomas: You know, that's not separate from the religion. Islam doesn't cause this terrorism. But what do you think on that?

0:09:49 Sarah: I think it's one of the, it's nonsense to say that they're not, there isn't a relation, of course there's a relation, um.

0:09:56 Thomas: Is it a relation to, even to mainstream Islam? Maybe that's a point people make.

0:10:02 Sarah: Here's what I could say, it's not um, if you are a Muslim, it is not necessarily true that you will eventually progress into a jihadi. I think that's wrong, so there are some people who see, you know, all Muslims as jihadis and dreaming, that's not true

0:10:04 Thomas: Okay, sure. Yeah, of course. Which, of court, I mean, there's 1.6 billion. Of course, there is not 1.7 billion. 1.5 billion jihadis.

0:10:15 Sarah: Right yeah and it's just, it's, it's not true, and some of them will might even become more devout and still not, uh, not follow that vein, vein of thought. However, that vein of thought does stem from the same religion that, you know, 1.6 billion people follow. It's that same

0:10:19 Thomas: Yeah. Okay. Okay. It's just, it's a different, like, stream of it, like a different kind of interpretation.

0:10:37 Sarah: Core. It's starting from that, and then they sort of, I would say they are more down to the fundamentals of religion than are many other people. A lot of people have made this argument, and I'm sort of in that camp, that that there's a lot that some of these extremists do that, you know, you can find examples in the with the story of the Prophet and his conquerings and his justifications for them that that's similar to what some of these extremists have been doing. But it's wrong to say that it will necessarily be that if you are a Muslim, you don't have to be a Muslim. I think that's the train of thought that's scary that where people say, if you're a Muslim you're you're necessarily bound to become this way. You're not. There's a lot of ways to avoid that.

0:10:49 Thomas: Right, right. Oh, of course. Yeah. But How far would you go in? Does mainstream Islam give any sort of shield to that way of thinking? Or do you, or can we separate it? Can we say, no, uh mainstream Muslims have no blame whatsoever to bear for something like, you know, Islam jihadis or whatever? Or is it, do you think there's a little bit of responsibility? None? What, what range do you think that is? Does it provide a shield for them?

0:11:50 Sarah: Well, I think, I mean, you can look at it as if you would look at, you know, people who blow up abortion clinics, right? There's that extremist who does that, who thinks that, okay, a life for a life, I'm going to murder a murderer, right. Right. And then there's a large amount of Christians who are anti-abortion and they think that it's murder. And they, you know, to some extent provide shield for those extremists or at least they provide shield for their ideology. You know, they give justifications for that ideology and those extremist just take it one step further. And then There's mainstream Christians who were sort of, you know, maybe sort of anti- abortion and sort of provide shield for those, for those other guys. So I think it's just, it's something that just builds on, builds on one shell at a time until you get to progressive Muslims.

0:11:58 Thomas: What

0:12:44 Sarah: And I think even progressive Muslims have a role to play, and they have a responsibility in this, because if they're not pulling their fellow Muslims to be like them, if they are not them to be less extreme, less dogmatic, then they have a little bit of responsibility in this too. We all do, you know, I think in that sense, like we can all play a role in this that's positive. We can all make reality a little better, a little easier. But to the extent that some people say that it's all Muslims, it's not all Muslims. Westerners also have a role to play. Leftists misogynists have a role to play.

0:13:21 Thomas: Do you see that role as?

0:13:24 Sarah: I think that, and I talked about this a little bit in my speech, but I think there's so much, so much of the left has abandoned, causes that they purport to care about, you know, like women's rights, gay rights, minority rights, when it comes to Islam. It seems like if you're from a Muslim community, then you're exempt from all these other rules. You know, they'll, they'll bring down the hammer to misogynists in a western context, right? Like men are man spreading or whatever it is that they're doing and they're, they're, they're treated as criminals, um, But That's

0:13:55 Thomas: Yeah, for spreading your legs on a train a little bit.

0:13:57 Sarah: I mean, that's, that's a little unfair of me, that's kind of one of those absurd things. But And

0:14:01 Thomas: No, well, I was going with you. I think that's true. I Think people will focus on that to an insane degree. And then when it comes to if it's somebody who, you know, looks like a Muslim, they're not going to be as quick to criticize their behavior.

0:14:14 Sarah: It, I think that comes from a place where, you know, they're trying not to be racist, but it's one of those things where the intent, it, it isn't enough. You really have to do it with reason and you have to do it rationally. And in this sense, I think it leads you into a less forgivable racism, which is to say that you will allow people in brown communities to oppress others in brown communities. And it's okay because they're just doing it to each other. I've known FGM, uh, people who have sort of been FGM apologists, and they have all been leftists, um, some of them, a few of them, even people who would otherwise be, be feminists.

0:14:55 Thomas: That's a great point. Yeah, yeah, I've never heard a Republican defend FGM. Like, wow.

0:14:59 Sarah: Right. So.

0:15:03 Thomas: Yeah. I've never quite thought about it in those terms. Interesting.

0:15:06 Sarah: To me, that's very, that's very hard for me to forgive, um, it's very hard to me to then look at the left and say, well, you don't have, uh, you're not racist, you, you are the anti-racist people, you are the anti misogynist people, because you're not, not for people like me, only for other white people, you know, other Americans or whatever it is, not for people like me, um, and that's, that's very disheartening because I, I came into, and I call myself still leftist, I'm still left-leaning and, you, the great majority of, of my politics, but I, I, I came into it because I thought the left stood for secularism. I thought that left stood for women's rights, for minority rights, for pluralism.

0:15:07 Thomas: Yeah,

0:15:52 Sarah: And now I sort of feel like I've been deceived. Because to some extent it seems like that doesn't apply to everybody. It only applies to some people. It only implies to people that are in the Western world. And so in the West world, yeah, let's tackle misogynists, uh, in the western world, yeah, let's, let's hammer anybody who, who disagrees with us, uh, in terms of, uh, racial politics or whatever it is, and you know, for a long, I was with them, I was with them because I thought they, they would also be with me when it came to tackling things like the hijab, um, modesty culture in general, in the east, I thought that would be with me there, as in the way that I was avec them here, but I have found that that's not really been the case. And so that's been a constant struggle for me to feel that, you know, my people don't really care about me, which

0:16:42 Thomas: That's a really interesting thing. I remember actually years ago, I can't, I may, it may have even predated all my podcasts, which is, which is going to be a while ago. I started podcasting in 2010, but I remember getting into an argument with a feminist back when, you know, arguments happened on Facebook. Now it's just, you know, pictures of your dogs or your kids or whatever. But there was a time when Facebook was, at least for me and for my circles, more political and involved arguments and stuff. And I got in an argument with a feminist because know if I was right or wrong, but what I was expressing was I was lamenting the fact that people in the Middle East and women could be, and I use the the term, and I want to get your take on this, if this is offensive or if this is what you would say, women are, the women who are quote-unquote brainwashed into thinking that the hijab and all these coverings and everything, niqab or whatever it may be, like are a good thing.

0:17:41 Thomas: And I use the term brainwash. I said, yeah, I mean, maybe they're saying that they like it, but don't you think they've been brainwashed by this religion? And there's a whole feminist kind of, I guess, view that even suggesting that a woman could be brainwashed is like anti-feminist.

0:18:00 Sarah: Is outrageous, right? Because they will say that they would, if you, if you talk to them about, you knows, 1950s housewives in America, they will say, yeah, oh yeah, a bunch of them were. If you talk to, if tell them about all the women that were anti-suffragettes, you know, anti- or suffrage in general, And they demonized suffragists right, there were there were quite a few, and it was a some of them, you know, there were women that were leading the anti-suffrage cause too. Um, you would they would look back on that and they would say, of course, they were just brainwashed, or they they would even say that right now today to women who say that they are not feminist. You know, that women don't even have to say they're anti-feminist. Woman if a woman says she's not a feminist, they're going to say she is she is brainwashed, she's been I don't know the exact terms that they have, the terminologies that they use anymore, but, uh, various ways of saying that she just has been taught to hate herself. Um, and she doesn't she just doesn't understand what it means. And, you

0:18:07 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, yeah. And there was, there were a lot. Yeah, yeah, mm-hmm.

0:18:31 Thomas: I should have asked that. Damn, that's a good point. What would you say about a housewife in the 50s? Yeah, yeah.

0:19:07 Sarah: Know, it

0:19:08 Thomas: So, in your view then, are brainwashed by religion, you know, and they're brainwashed into doing things that are not necessarily good for them and maybe thinking that they are good for them, would you say?

0:19:20 Sarah: I mean, that happens that happens all the time. It's not just religion. And tons of ideologies have this have this hypnotizing, you know, almost religion like but like dogmatic way of way of thinking that you get trapped into. It's human, almost, to to just fall back on that. It's easier for us anyway. It's it's a it's mental trap. It's difficult to be a person who is rationally thinking in all aspects of life. Are. It's an active role that your brain has to take. And our minds want an easy way out. They want to conserve energy. They don't want to have to worry about this. And they want to be able to just take shortcuts, and they do. So, just a strange thing for me to have this conversation. And you're not the only one that's had this conversation with feminists.

0:19:20 Thomas: Yeah.

0:20:06 Sarah: I've had this conversation with feminist all the time. And it's absurd for me to have to sit there and defend this to somebody who is has lived in the Western world, has really never faced the kind of misogyny that you see and in Muslim cultures, never will, you know, has no fear of that sort of thing, can worry about something like manspreading, um, you know, and then they're the ones that are saying, well, you know, the hijab is empowering, like, well, that's just

0:20:31 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, it is. I mean, it gives me pause, and probably me more so because I'm your typical white male. They always have that out, of well, you're just a typical white male, so you can you know, say that people are of color or brainwashed or whatever. But, uh, so it did give me pause. I was like, shit, am I being an asshole? Am I saying am I seeing something you know

0:20:53 Sarah: But you're not the only one it's not it's not as if, uh, you know, the only people that are not allowed to criticize religion in this way, or Islam in this way, are white males that's not true. Um, that's what they say, they paint them all as old white men that hate that hate Islam. But, it's you know, Ayan Hirsi Ali gets a lot of uh, gets a little bit of hate for doing what she's doing. Um, I can't actually think of anybody, and I've said this before, um, in some other podcasts, where I was I said where can you think of somebody who who who criticizes, criticizes Islam publicly, visibly, um, you know, and gets away with it. You know, who who, in the sense that they can criticize Islam directly and talk about it directly as an issue and not be called a racist, not be called a bigot, not because xenophobe or an uncle Tom or a native informant or whatever it is. I can't think of anybody.

0:20:54 Thomas: Yeah yeah yeah

0:21:49 Sarah: I don't know anyone who's escaped this. So is it even possible to do you

0:21:49 Thomas: I can't either well I yeah we'll open it to the audience, uh, email us if you think of somebody, but I, I can't think of anybody. It's a good point. Mm-hmm.

0:21:57 Sarah: Know I think I think that says a lot about, um, about where we are and about why people are so angry when it comes to this topic of Islam, why it's so polarizing. I think it has everything to do with the political climate today. Um, I think we talked a little bit about Trump, or you tweeted at me, or something about about Trump, and

0:22:17 Thomas: Oh Yeah, yeah, shit. I'm so glad you remembered. That was like one of the main things I want to talk about. Let's, let's get into that. So you, you said that the, you think the left is responsible for Trump. Now I get that it's Twitter. So feel free to clarify, you know, it's, it's, you're using 140 characters or whatever, but that the left is, is responsible for Trump. Now I happen to disagree, but I'm willing, I'm open-minded. Like I w I would love to hear a case for why the left is responsible.

0:22:46 Sarah: So, to to clarify my my Twitter comments, it's I don't think they are solely responsible. Right, it's not of course there's a climate that has been, um, that has been fostered by by right-wing media outlets and, you know, various demagogues that that has allowed a character like this to to gain traction. But, um, the left has a lot to do with it, the current culture of um, it's, in a it's, I think, in a a variety of ways. Uh, Islam is a big topic. Islam is a big failing of, of the left. And I think that people see it to be a failing. People see it to be, uh, a case where the left is being very disingenuous, because we have a president that's saying, you know, Islam as a religion of peace, uh, right after terrorist attacks, which I think is it's a it's a very absurd thing today, things to say, and he doesn't have to say it.

0:22:51 Thomas: Sure, sure.

0:23:41 Sarah: You know, if he wanted to, the effect of just protecting Muslims. All he has to say is, you know, you have Muslim neighbors who care about this country and love this country, and they're with us, and we're with them, and there are many Muslims who don't believe in this, and that's fine. That's a fine thing to say. It's another thing to get into, you know—to essentially Quranic interpretation and say Islam is or isn't anything. You know, he's making a statement about what the religion is versus what the people are. It is one thing to say that the people are peaceful. And I think that's a fair statement. And I think there's something everyone should say and talk about, but it's not fair to say, but the religion is necessarily this way or that way, or, you know, um, doesn't, it doesn't have anything to do with this. Um, I think that's an absurd thing for, for a president to say.

And he said it repeatedly and it's that sort of thing where you, if you're somebody, you know, you're the average American, you hear something like this after, you know, a terrorist attack. You have little, you know, little background knowledge about this. You don't really understand why this is happening. Why are they coming after us? Why are they attacking us like this? And you hear your president say that and nothing else and offer no real explanations for why people from this religious background do this.

0:24:07 Thomas: Yeah. Oh,

0:25:02 Sarah: I think it makes them distrust that leader. And I think that it has led to a distrust of the left. Um, and I think that that is something somebody like Donald Trump has pounced upon. You know, they, they just, they they, he, it's a kernel of truth that he can own, you know, not only can he, he's the only one that's really taught. He's the one that says, okay, Islam is a problem. And Uh, he says it unflinchingly. He just says it. And that gains a lot of credibility in the eyes of other people. And they can say that, okay, this is somebody we can trust to tell us the truth when Hillary Clinton won't, when Barack Obama won't. And I think that plays into his hands. And a lot of people have said this. I'm not the only one, I think. There's been many people who've...

0:25:45 Thomas: Certainly, certainly. I actually think I'm in the minority in disagreeing. If you don't mind, let me give you my thoughts on it and feel free to come right back at me or we can agree to disagree or maybe I'll be wrong and that's okay. But my thoughts on that, and I actually did used to think that as well, but then I thought, what is the decision-making process that a voter should be going through. I think definitely it's not helpful for Obama to say things like that, to say, blanket, Islam is a religion of peace, period. I'm not saying that's good by any means. And I certainly think that anything a leader like that says that is not really true and goes against what people's perceptions tend to be, that is going to create distrust. So I definitely, I think we agree in so far as that.

But when you actually get to the point where you're going to be voting and you see one guy who's, not to even mention all the other absurd qualities about Donald Trump and how unfit he is for office in every way, if you see him say, well, we need to not let Muslims in until we know what's going on, which which is, that's not a solution to anything, by the way.

0:25:47 Sarah: Mm hmm.

0:27:02 Thomas: Like, that wouldn't have even prevented the terrorist attacks that he's thinking it would have prevented because they weren't immigrants. I mean, at a certain point, can't we reasonably say voters have a responsibility to look at it rationally and say, and even if they're not going to, that's fine, but if voters are irrational, then I don't think we can blame people for that. So, what they would have to do is say, say, okay, Trump's solutions, which is absurd, which is bar all Muslims from coming into the country, something that I don't even think is legal, and it's certainly, he's under-informed on every issue that you ask him about, knows very little about it, except he feeds on that, you know, kind of racist tendency in the party, versus, look at Obama.

0:27:50 Thomas: Now, sure, his words have said, oh, Islam is a religion of peace, yada yada he got it. Meanwhile, he's droning the shit out of people over in the Middle East. Like, it's not like he's treating the Middle West with kid gloves and is giving them our nuclear weapons and stuff. Like I mean, you could you could say the Iran deal isn't great or something, but he's he's still fighting ISIS. He's still, you know, killing leaders over there. Couldn't we say a reasonable voter should look at the two approaches and say, all right, I'll go with the one where the guy is maybe maybe he's being a politician. He speaking out of both sides of his mouth or whatever, versus the madman.

0:28:27 Sarah: So I don't I don't want to come across as somebody who's trying to, rally for for Trump. I am not what I'm what I mean to say solely. This is this is what I need to say is that if you if you are a politician, yes, you have you have a responsibility to gain the trust of your voters. And we talked about this a little bit, right, and how I think Obama is failing in that aspect, but also to show them that you will represent their interests. And this has also been something that leftist politicians in general have failed upon. On. As far as the trust thing is concerned, I think it's more than trust. It's a belief that he is authentic, you know, that he is saying

0:28:34 Thomas: Uh-oh, here Sure. Oh,

0:29:15 Sarah: What is on his mind, and he's doing what is on his mine, and He's not being pressured by anybody else. I'm not saying to you that this is, I think, just to make it clear, I'm going to vote for Hillary. And I think that is the educated, I think, well, I don't want to get into it, but well,

0:29:28 Thomas: Yeah, no, that's, yeah, yeah. Don't worry. Well, I agree. And I'm glad to hear you say that. But yeah, I think the argument is still separate from that. It's certainly.

0:29:40 Sarah: It's, you know, people, I think people are tired of being shamed by elites and especially elitist media. And I don't want to sound like, you know, Sarah Palin when she when she goes off about the media, but I think that it is true. And it's fair to say that, you know, people are shamed. And there's a large part of the American population that is consistently shamed for not being being informed enough, educated enough, tolerant enough, inclusive enough, or whatever it is, right? They're made to feel not just that their ideas are wrong, and that's one thing, but that they are buffoons, and they are hateful, and they are, you know, primitive, and just not as cosmopolitan as these elitists. And I think that that's a real feeling. And that's it's not unfair to say that the media sometimes have a role to play in creating this sort of atmosphere.

0:30:34 Sarah: And this man refuses to be shamed. I remember back in, I think it was November of last year, and I was telling everybody that I was getting scared. I was thinking, okay, Trump is rising and you don't see it, but he will, he's going to get stronger and he's going to be the Republican nominee. And people laughed at me. My friends, they suggested that you're silly. This is ridiculous. Of course he's not. He's a clown. And I said, no, he's latching into a very raw feeling that many Americans are feeling.

0:31:09 Sarah: And in order to be an effective politician, in order for you to be a good politician, you have to be able to understand that people are feeling this hurt or this pain or whatever, justifiably or unjustifiably. They're They're feeling it. And I need to harness it and pull it into a good direction, in a direction that will be good for the country. And if you don't do that, you allow people like Trump to take the reins. And that's essentially what's happened.

So he refuses to be shamed. And when everyone, it's not as if when he says, you know, there's blood coming out of a vagina, like Trump supporters aren't necessarily agreeing with him there or thinking that that's true, true what they're liking about him is that that he says what's on his mind and and you can't embarrass him you know because he doesn't care about he doesn't care about what you think, and this is juxtaposed to to Hillary, who seems very, she seems very, you know, polished and rehearsed, and she doesn't come across as authentic. And the message that people are learning from Trump is is that this candidate thinks for himself, and he doesn't let anyone bully him into repressing who he is. Of course, I mean, of course, it's ridiculous. But that is what they're thinking. That is what their

0:32:18 Sarah: Thinking.

0:32:18 Thomas: Well yeah, but a lot of what this is, okay, there's two particular things that I think are interesting here. First, I think we would need to separate whether when people say the left is responsible for Trump, do they mean more so than they would be for any other Republican candidate? Because I think that's important to parse out because don't you forget, you know, don't let no one forget, Ted Cruz said we should monitor Muslim communities.

0:32:47 Sarah: No, I think more, I Think more so than any, any candidate, I think Trump in particular, not, I wouldn't say that for Cruz. I wouldn'T say that for Ted Cruz.I'm saying that for Donald Trump.

0:32:55 Thomas: So you, oh wow. So, you think, but the things you just said though, they apply to Ted Cruz. Like Ted Cruz said, we should patrol mosques. Like he said, he said some outrageous stuff that's not PC. He refuses to be shamed. He's got all the same qualities, but well, okay.

0:33:06 Sarah: No. I don't think he does. I don't he has, I don'T think he has

0:33:16 Thomas: You're right. He is.

0:33:16 Sarah: The same maverick feel that Trump has.

0:33:19 Thomas: That's, that's fair. But he, I think he has some of the, so

0:33:20 Sarah: He's a a Harvard grad. He's been in the biz of politics for much longer than Trump has. So I think he has a very different feeling. I

0:33:31 Thomas: Then that's the, So is that the difference, that Trump is more of an outsider? Cause I, I didn't, I was, I was trying to take the things that you said and respond to them and say, say that Cruz has a lot of those factors.

0:33:44 Sarah: Don't know if he does, though. I think, I don't know if Cruz is refusing to be shamed kind of thing. I do' n't think he ha s it in the same sense that Trump has. Has he said the same sort of offensive things as Trump has?

0:33:48 Thomas: Well, like I just said, he said we should patrol Muslim communities. That's about the most offensive thing. I mean, he set it, well, I don't know. It was that debate. It was one of the probably, who knows, the second to last debate or something where, I mean they all, I dunno, you could make the argument that Trump ramped it up for all of them. That's certainly true.

0:34:03 Sarah: When did he say it, though? Though. Did he say it after the Trump thing?

0:34:21 Thomas: But I just, yeah, yeah.

0:34:21 Sarah: Yeah, he brought it to another level. I mean, there was the plane that everybody else was playing in. There was what Trump was doing. And also, he doesn't care what the Republican establishment thinks of him either. And I think what he stands for is a candidate that is anti-PC. And I don't think that Cruz has that same vibe. I don't think that Cruz gives off that same feeling. But Trump does.

0:34:44 Thomas: Okay, well, okay, let me just clarify. The point I was going to make is, and there's actually an early debate among the Republicans where Fiorina said, and you know it's early because Fiorita was in it. She said, she gave a speech about how PC culture was like ruining everything. So the point I Was going to Make is, I think that's a Republican thing. Like most Republican candidates had, I think you could point to a time where they said people are being too PC, people are blah, blah, and so I don't, I'm not sure I see how in particular Trump and none of the others are a product of the left. Do you know what I mean?

0:34:57 Sarah: I don't think they all are to the extent Trump is for example Bush would you have said that about Bush I think he's very yeah Jeb we forgot about Jeb

0:35:30 Thomas: Jeb? Yeah, no, Jeb is just, Jev is a product. Yeah, you had to remind mind me, please, clap. Um, yeah, Jeb. Jeb, I would say, is definitely that's an establishment thing. He's a, he's the product of the Republican establishment, for sure. And, and, and not really, I mean, I actually, the funny thing about this whole process of watching all these debates and and how awful I think Trump is and everything is, I ended up liking Jeb. I was like, oh, come on, give a vote for Jab, everybody. Yeah.

0:35:58 Sarah: I know I would say I started liking almost except for Cruz who I still I thought Cruz would have been worse But I think it's – to the extent that it's the left's fault, quote-unquote, for making somebody like Trump is that they've fostered this PC culture. And I know it's such a soundbite. It's such thing that right-wing pundits talk about all the time. But I do think that there is a grain of salt in there. And I think it's hard to deny where, you know, you, we are in the society where if you say anything critical about the religion of Islam, in particular, you're going to get into trouble. But also there's... there's such a thing about, like, if you save, for example, in certain aspects of feminism, you can't criticize without being labeled a misogynist. Um.

0:36:05 Thomas: He's awful yeah yeah sure right

0:36:55 Sarah: And when you, when you create this sort of atmosphere, then you're forcing people to be inauthentic, to lie about what they really feel, for fear of being shamed or for fear of being labeled, you know, something they're not. Um, you know, I know people who have been called anti-black because they didn't like some of the actions of Black Lives Matter. Right, not, not the entirety of it, social justice people and everything, but I'm called anti-black, that's a, a pretty harsh word. I know some people who've been called racists because they oppose reparations, or they've been calling misogynist because they didn't think the wage gap was really something of a heavy concern. And that there's a very big difference between hating women and thinking that a fact, you know, presented by some people about compensation isn't true. But routinely, you see this conflation, right? This unfair demonization of people.

And I see it all the the time. And I, I operate in leftist circles, and I see it constantly. And I think it's very unfair. And I think that it pushes people who are moderates, who are leftists, to be more sympathetic to somebody who, you know, just doesn't give a damn the way, the way, the way Trump does.

0:37:17 Thomas: Yeah

0:38:04 Sarah: What's also, what's, what's, what's worse is that many people don't see this shaming as a problem. You know, a lot of people think it's a good thing, it's a virtue, they think shutting down a conversation when, when they don't like what their opponent is saying is fine, you know, and in fact, even, I think, preferable to, you know, the messy business of having to debate them. So

0:38:24 Thomas: I agree, I agree, but I just think it gets these things, get applied too broadly. I mean, to give an example, you went on Ruben, we were talking a little bit before recording, you haven't really followed much of his show, but one thing that disappointed me about Ruben, and feel free to not even even address this if you don't want, because I don't, I don't want you to say, you know, give an opinion of something you, you don't know about. But one thing that frustrated me and has frustrated people like Ina, uh, on Twitter, somebody I interact with, is he, under the guise of anti-regressive left and, you know, let's stop this PC stuff, he just has racist after racist on his show. People like Tommy Robinson, people like Milo Yiannopoulos, for fuck's sake, like people that are, have views that are.

0:39:11 Sarah: Milo Milo is a very interesting character, right, I mean Milo is somebody that I think he's somebody I can say more so than I could say for Trump. For Trump, I'll say, okay, part of it, the left bears responsibility for. Milo, I would say, entirely, he is a media creation. He didn't have to happen. He didn't have to have the power that he has. He has it because of the backlash that he received. It grew him into this cult-like figure. And at any point, all you have to do with somebody like Milo is take him seriously. Just debate him seriously, is not to, every time he went into a campus and some feminist or whatever it was was hollering at him or screaming at him, that gave him power, he loved

0:39:14 Thomas: I agree.

0:39:54 Sarah: It, he loved it when when that happens and I saw this, you know, I saw Milo from his beginnings, from when Gamergate or something, I don't know what it was that he latched onto, I think it was Gamergate, right, in the beginning when he latched onto it, I could tell that this is somebody who, you know, he could be no one, or he could continue growing, and he did, and he grew because of the reaction that he got. And every time he got a reaction, he just, you know, grew that much. And his his visibility

0:39:55 Thomas: I disagree with that, actually. I agree with that.

0:40:26 Thomas: Yeah.

0:40:26 Sarah: Was just increased. And this is somebody who, we have no reason for somebody like Milo to exist. You know, the few times that Milo is honest or he's giving facts that, you know, maybe worth considering, they have been said by other people, you know, and we should just address them, the few times that he's reasonable, we should just address those times and then disregard the rest. But what's happening is that people are, you know, they're trying to get him kicked off of stage or trying to give him you know, no platforming and all this stuff, all of it, all it does is empower him, you're creating a monster.

0:40:54 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Oh, I agree! I agree with that. I think that's right. And I could be wrong, but I think the first thing I remember him for is the, is it Tim Hunt? The guy, I think, that was the thing that he latched on to. Because he went, he battled feminists over the, or scientist who said the thing that someone reported that he said women should be segregated in the labs.

0:41:20 Sarah: He was he was getting bigger before then, he was started with Gamergate, but the Tim Hunt thing is also one of those things where I thought that was, that was awful, I, I thought this guy didn't, you know, you could, we could debate about whether or not it was misogynist what he what he said.

0:41:22 Thomas: Oh, okay.

0:41:33 Thomas: Well, oh, sure, sure.

0:41:36 Sarah: But I thought it was unfair. The treatment of it was very, very unfair. And it's one of those extreme examples that teaches you a little bit about the way that people are feeling in general. Think

0:41:45 Thomas: But here's my question to you. I agree. I disagree with that. I actually am fully on your side, on the side of always debate these people. Don't cause violence at Milo's talk at a college. Who gives a shit? Like, he's just going to say some crap that is, you know, easily refuted by facts. Totally agree on that.

But my, the only point I want to make, and let me know if you still disagree and that's okay, is, is do you think you should give someone like that a platform though? Like, do you Think that, you Know, because Ruben keeps having him on and I think it's a product of, again, he wants to get access to his large audience because Milo has a large audience, but he keeps having them on.

Oh, let's talk about the fact that, You know, like all your views and let's get them out Like, there's a difference between saying, yes, this guy, you know, should be allowed to speak at a college if people want him to speak out of college and shouldn't be interrupted by, you know, loud feminists shouting him down and, you know, physically stopping people from entering his talks.

0:42:45 Thomas: I get all that. There's a difference between that and then trying to give Milo a platform on purpose.

0:42:52 Sarah: I mean, I don't know what's wrong about giving him a platform. I mean CNN gave him a plan for him recently. I mean was it CNN I think. But more recently, when you're doing something that, when you're encountering somebody who's doing newsworthy things, I mean, as a media figure, it doesn't I don't see why it's wrong for him necessarily to host somebody like that.

0:43:13 Thomas: I think it's because, and this may be, again, a product of I've been following Ruben a bit. I think it's because the line is always, we need the conversation to happen. We need the conversation to happen. And then there's only one person, there's only one side of the conversation. It's not a conversation. It's you've invited Tommy Robinson or you've invited the, you know, the guy with the racist views that it's okay to come on your show because you let everybody talk, even though it turns out you're just letting racists talk.

0:43:43 Sarah: Did you watch the Tommy Robinson interview? What did you think of it?

0:43:44 Thomas: Yeah. I think he is, well, he's an interesting case because he's somebody who will kind of agree in conversation. I've spoken a lot with Ina because Ina actually had a debate with him on Godless Spellchecker, I think. And he's a weird guy where I think he kind of goes along with you in conversation and then once you turn off the mic and he's out making news headlines, he's saying racist things again, he's saying, you know, so like that, but that's the kind of thing that you need to, you need to challenge him on what he said, you know, like that's, that's something that I don't like, that it's not happening, he's coming on and he's just, he's making nice and he says he's saying all, he's putting on a nice face, but then his tweets right after that appearance are still terrible, like he's still tweeting anti-Muslim stuff, you know, stuff that I think you would, if you went back and looked, you would agree was anti-Muslim bigotry, you know?

0:44:26 Sarah: Well, okay, so to clarify, I haven't seen the Milo interviews with with Dave I have seen other interviews of Milo so I am familiar with he says the same stuff he says same stuff over and over did see the Tommy Robinson interview and I actually found it to be really really interesting and I have never heard of this guy before I'm just I guess stereotypically American in that sense he's some Brit guy I don't know who is he but It was, um, it was just, it was very interesting. And as far as the tweets, he, you know, whatever he tweeted after, I don't know if, I think it's unfair to say that Dave is responsible for, you know what this guy, for what this guy does just because I

0:44:56 Thomas: Yeah, it's all the same thing. Yeah, sure.

0:45:14 Thomas: Yeah. He's more of a UK. Yeah he's a UK figure. Yeah no, He's not responsible. Don't you think? And that's why it even is more important that Dave at least do some elementary research and say, "Hey, in the past you've said that women should be," like, all the sexist stuff, like, at least bring it up. Because people like you who didn't know him, who had no idea who he was, now all of a sudden, "Oh, he's this reasonable guy on the show." Cool. Like, you know, don't you think it's somewhat incumbent on an interviewer to do some research and say, "Oh, this guy has said some really shitty things before. Like, maybe I should ask him about it."

0:46:09 Sarah: I think, I mean, so I think it may come down to interview style. I think that when I was on, uh, you know Dave Rubin's show, he didn't, he didn't give me any hardballs either. You know, I know. I don't.

0:46:19 Thomas: No, he is a softball guy.

0:46:21 Sarah: Yeah. I think I think that's kind of his, that's kind of his interview style in general, so I don't know if I can be, you know, and if I can say that this is unfair because you were so nice to him and you were so mean to me, you know, when I, when I was talking, because he's generally pretty, he generally, he lets them talk and he lets them present themselves in the best light that they can, which I think is, um, it's unique in some senses, because you really don't see that in modern, you know, television anymore.

I mean, I don't, I don', I can't think of anybody where I, where I see it, where I can see that, um, I can see how he's trying to, you know, model himself after Larry King, um, and I can see him evolving in his interview styles a little bit, um, and I haven't been watching some of his more recent stuff, it's just been too busy, um, but unsure, I guess I'm not sure why, why it's so important that Tommy Robinson be seen as, you, that everyone be uniform in their opinion that he's a super hateful bigot, because I am, uh, you know, I just watched that one interview and I watched that interview and some of it was a little iffy, um, some of it made sense and I could sort of empathize with what, what he was saying, if it was true. Um, and I felt that, okay, uh, he presented himself as fairly conciliatory.

0:46:21 Thomas: That's true. Yeah. Hey, that's fine.

0:46:53 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:47:45 Sarah: He didn't seem anti-Muslim. He talked about, you know, good Muslims that he knew and his work with Majid Nawaz or whatever, and all of that was positive. So what's the harm necessarily with coming, with leaving that interview as is, in your opinion, with, with somebody that didn't know Tommy Robinson, watched that interview, heard all those things, and he He wasn't hateful towards Muslims, really, in that interview. And you leave that interview, is the harm just that now they think this person who really secretly is...

0:48:14 Thomas: You're giving a platform and a shield to someone who has said really, like, you know Mariam Namazi, right? Yeah, she, she, I actually slightly interacted with this guy on Twitter, with Tommy Robinson on Twitter because he was saying, he was tweeting Mariam pictures of her nude protest and then shaming her for her body and was saying like, he's not a cool guy. Like he's a, like and it's, it's not like I need him to be crucified. I'm not saying, and I get that. I get that there's this overreaction on among PC people, but I,

0:48:19 Sarah: So you're thinking if... Yes, yes.

0:48:37 Sarah: Yeah.

0:48:48 Sarah: I think

0:48:50 Thomas: I don't, I really, I don't know. I kind of have a problem with not even bringing up some of these horrible things and then pretending like you're having all the important hard hitting conversations, you know, like it doesn't imagine if you were a Miriam and having had this interaction where he's sicking his followers on her and saying like, oh oh yeah, I can't, this is like, it was his response to her making a point about what something he said. He said, oh, how about this where you're, you're a check out this counter argument. And then it was shaming her for how she looked in this nude protest. I can even probably find it. I tweeted it at the time and imagine her seeing this guy come on Ruben and, uh, you know, all softballs, no, no problem. Like, no break.

0:49:35 Thomas: Like I don't know if you were maybe on the receiving end of some of this guy's hatred, wouldn't you feel a little betrayed if someone like Ruben just gives him a platform, it's all happy, it's all smiles, nothing's challenged, what if he was a, you know, like anti-black racist, what if you was, you know, like you don't, you think we should at least bring that up and like, sure.

0:49:58 Sarah: It's, I mean, so my... Let me clarify a little bit about what you said. So the problem is that he is not giving him hardball enough questions. And he really should have.

0:50:13 Sarah: Or not have him on at all? Well,

0:50:11 Thomas: Well, I would say not have him on at all or at least a direct, like I'm trying, trying to think of a good example, but like if someone says, quite publicly, by the way, and not, and not years ago, and not like some random thing, like very clearly horribly misogynistic things, do you, do you not think that you should try, like try to bring it up like in an interview? Is it, I don't know, I just, it's weird to me, I don't, well,

0:50:46 Sarah: I mean, I don't know. I think it's consistent with Dave's style. You know, that's been his style. So that's what I would expect if he was going to have anybody on. You know to the extent that Tommy Robinson troubles me. I mean he would trouble me if he literally said anti-Muslim stuff on air. And then Dave said nothing. Know, like if he said really racist, but it seemed to me that he wasn't, I mean, like you said, he wasn't his extreme self. He got to present sort of the best of himself.

0:50:52 Thomas: Sure. Well, But that's, isn't that almost somewhat worse? Like, because he hides it. Now, I know this is particular to Tommy Robinson, I actually don't think most people are like him. Like, he does a weird thing where he kind of puts on a happier persona than he is on Twitter and in these other news stories that I've seen in interviews and stuff. But like, but doesn't that kind of make it worse? So now Ruben has drawn attention to this guy. And he even, Sam Harris didn't know who Tommy Robinson was and tweeted like, Oh, Yeah. You didn't, oh, this is, that now in your mind, in Sam Harris's mind, this is an okay guy, this is a stand-up guy who just has some good things to say about immigration or something and it's like

0:51:46 Sarah: I didn't. I that's not true. That's not sure. I don't think that's true. I think it's that, you know, even, even people that I think are racist or bigots can, can have some things to say that are interesting, uh, or worthwhile. I can have a few points that are worth listening to. I don't, you know, I don't well,

0:52:13 Thomas: Here's where it might be a problem, let me just real quickly, I'll give you a scenario, see if you know what I mean, if not, it's, it's fine, we can, we can kind of leave it where it is, but, uh, use, let's say you or Sam Harrison, which actually happened, tweet, oh, I like, that's, this, this Tommy Robinson interview, great interview, you know, whatever. When people who have been a victim of, or been a target rather of Tommy Robinson's hate, see that, how do they know that Sam Harris isn't, you know, like endorsing that or, you Now, like, isn't it somewhat problematic to give this guy a platform to make him look like something he kind of isn't and never challenge him at all?

0:52:53 Sarah: It's it's if guess if it's something that's generally what you do on your program, you hold you have hard hitting questions and then you don't do it for this guy. It's clearly unfair. If you're, the format of your show is to allow your guests to present them in their best possible light. And I'm assuming this means having controversial people and having put themselves on in the best, best possible light, that I think it's, I think it's fair. I mean, it's interesting to me that CNN, NBC, I mean all these places, they always have controversial people. And many of them, you know, there are interviews where they're softball interviews the whole time, uh, but that seems to be okay, but well,

0:53:04 Thomas: Hmm. Okay.

0:53:37 Thomas: Well, I don't watch CNN, so I guess that's why. I don't know.

0:53:40 Sarah: I mean, I, you know, I mean interviewers in general, they'll have controversial people on and controversial people will gloss over things and the interviewers I think

0:53:42 Thomas: Yeah. Well I think that's okay if you get controversial people from both sides on and do that, but it's only the one side is the thing. He only gets anti-regressive left people on to talk shit about the regressive left. Like that's, that's the entire thing. So I guess that's what bugs me, but that's Okay. If I get it, you know, if I get your point where it's like like the expectation is what it is. And, uh, I mean, I is, well,

0:54:09 Sarah: The damage is as extreme as everyone, everyone seems to think, you know, I mean, if it's not as if, uh, like I don't, I, I watched the Tommy Robinson interview and I came across thinking, okay, well in this sense, you know, in the sense, only the sense that he presented on there, uh, uh, it seems reasonable, uh, that doesn't apply to his entirety of being, it's not as if, you know, in our interview, you know, suddenly it makes me feel like this person is acceptable in every sense, and all you have to do is Google him to then see, you know, all the different ways that media thinks about him and all the differing opinion articles that have been said about him, so I think in, in that sense, Ruben's, um, you know, what, what Dave did was in, it was in contrast to everything else that, that, that Tommy has out there, so if it'd be one thing if, you know, nobody knew of all this extremist stuff, but with Tommy it's so easy to get, it's, what's really hard to get is where he can really, uh, just speak his mind and be in an audience that doesn't already hate him or isn't already ready to label him as, as one way or another.

I actually think that I, I watched after that, because the whole controversy happened on Twitter, I'm like, who is, is this guy? Why, why, why are people concerned about him? And then I looked him up and there was plenty of, plenty of negativity, you

0:55:29 Sarah: Know, there's, yeah, there was plenty. And there's people that took his tweets and all this stuff. And other than Dave's interview, I actually can't think of, I didn't find any where it didn't feel like it was just an attack zone where people just just yelling things at each other and perhaps correctly when it comes to Tommy, but,

0:55:29 Thomas: He's awful. He is a really awful guy.

0:55:45 Thomas: Well, well there, there are some examples. I mean the, like I said, the thing with, uh, Godless Spellchecker. And then that show actually referenced a, uh, there was a longish, uh, it was like an hour or so. I don't know if it was a documentary or like a piece in cause it was British. So I don't know how the hell their TV works or whatever, but, um, it was a piece, a longish piece about him and Mo Ansar because Mo Ansar was like trying to change his mind or something. So, I mean, he's been given forms before, but, but I understand. Well, I want to say, I think I've taken enough of your time and let me just say, I really, really appreciate the dialogue on this because it's, it's been really fun. Like I like to, I like to be able to have the, have the disagreements and hash it out and get your side of things.

0:56:37 Thomas: And I get it. You know, I understand where you're coming from. So thank you so much for at least, being willing to go in the paint and have that disagreement there.

0:56:46 Sarah: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was a, it was a good discussion. I hope, uh, you know, I mean, it, I could talk going on about any of these topics for, for a long, long time, but I think it was, uh.

0:56:56 Thomas: Well, don't say that or I'll make you come back and we'll talk about more stuff.

0:56:59 Sarah: But this was very good. I think, I think this was good. It Was good chat.

0:57:03 Thomas: Yeah, I would absolutely love to have you back if there's another topic that we want to get into because I had a great time and I love talking to you and it was really cool to hear your story and everything. So thanks so much for joining me, Sarah Haider. Oh, where should we point people?

0:57:18 Sarah: Well, I have a Twitter, it's, uh, at Sarah the Hater, it's S-A-R-A-H-T-H-E-H-A-I-D-E-R, that's my Twitter, otherwise please check out the Ex-Muslims of North America website, that's www.exmna.org and that's our website, you can learn a little bit more about our organization and what we do and please, if you have some time to support us in some way we would really appreciate it and, um, that would be really helpful. Oh.

0:57:54 Thomas: Awesome. I, yeah, that sounds like a great organization and it's really, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks for giving me so much of your time and I really enjoyed it. So thank you.

0:58:05 Sarah: Well, thanks, thanks for having me on, it was fun.

0:58:21 Thomas: Alright, that does it for a great part two with Sarah Haider. Again, thanks to Sarah for such a great discussion. It was really fun. And a couple things. First, I other podcast. I do Comedy Shoeshine, which check out if you're looking for a comedy podcast. It's not at all like this one. And give that a try. I've found people either love it or they really don't like it. So maybe you're one of the people who would love it. So check it out, Comedy Shoeshine. Just search that in iTunes. Give it a listen. And if you don't it, your money back. Back. And then also I do Thomas and the Bible, of course. I'm about to finish the Bible very close, and then I'm moving on to another reading, which is up to the listeners. I put up a poll, and they're voting on it. So check out Thomas and the Bible if you're interested in that.

0:59:08 Thomas: Got a lot of new patrons to thank. Uh, thank you guys so much. New patrons are Joel, Al Klinge, Martin Fidel, Tim, oh, man, this is, okay, whew, okay. So, I know I've said I'll read whatever name you guys put. Now, this one, I'm gonna read, but I think maybe I just don't understand it. See, it says Blackhawks, and then it has this, like, arrow sign, and the sharks. So like in mathematics, I get it that maybe that means greater than, you know, but I don't, I'm just going to read it. Blackhawks point toward the sharks, I think is what it means in this context. Again, in math, it would, it was something crazy like Blackhawk's, you know, greater than sharks, but, but it's not math though.

0:59:56 Thomas: That's the thing. So it's, it's, thank you to Blackhawks turning into the Sharks. Which I don't know what that means, But hey, it's your name. You made it up. And thanks to Mike Wenz, Steven C Henderson, Skeptic Tim, Michael Schrader, Susanne Wikman, Toronto Dump, Deadeye Nick, and then a patron who asked that I not mention their name. So you know who you are. Thank you very much for your pledge. I appreciate it a lot. And then, of course, I got to thank my all time greats.

You guys are the best. Hunter Ash, Sammie, Inciting Incident Podcast, alongblackcock, Kaylee Reiser, Zimu Zinu, Adrian Borshchoff, Jonathan Moyet, J. Eldon Walt, Blackhawks, Arrow of some kind, Sharks, Franco Villarreal, Steve Sigmund, Peter Skelton, Brian Gareford, Dale, Matt Garrett, Ian Rosano, Samantha, Sophie, Cara, and that's it. Thank you guys for being my top patrons. I love you guys. You make the show happen and I hope you are enjoying the bonus content of late. It's been a lot. Next week, I have an exciting, exciting announcement and you're going to love it. And a returning guest that you will love. I'm very excited. Woo. Going to be fun. Okay. So tune in next week. Thank you for listening and have a good weekend.